Thursday, February 26, 2015

WHO WAS REALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TLB MURDERS?

There seems to be a lot of confusion over just who was in charge of the Family.  Everyone seems to have a different opinion on who was ordering who around, and what was the REAL reason for the murders. 

Now’s your chance to divulge who you think was in charge.  Let's look at the perps involved:
Charles Denton Watson, a/k/a Tex, Charles Montgomery, Mad Charlie.  Born and raised in Copeville, Texas.  Star athlete, stole some typewriters, worked for Braniff Airlines, flew to California and stayed there, worked at a wig shop, smoked a lot of dope, acted goofy, hitched a ride with Dennis Wilson, joined the family, led the killings August 9th & 10th.

Outstanding characteristics:  Had a secret stash of speed that Charlie didn’t know about, had a penchant for doing stupid things, and was sexually confused.
Susan Denise Atkins, a/k/a Sadie Mae Glutz, Sexy Sadie, Donna Kay Powell, Sharon King.  Born in San Gabriel, California, parents were alcoholics, mother died when she was still a teen, dropped out of school, moved to San Francisco and worked as a stripper, took  up with Anton LaVey, and later met Charles Manson, gave the family the clap, helped kill Gary Hinman, participated in the Cielo Drive murders, took a dump outside Nader’s apartment building, got everyone arrested because she had a big mouth.

Outstanding characteristics:  She too partook of the baby food jar speed.  She lied all the time, but she single-handedly brought the Manson Family to its knees.
Patricia Diane Krenwinkel, a/k/a Katie, Big Patty, Marnie Reeves, Mary Ann Scott, Cathran Patricia Smith, Patty Montgomery.  Born in Los Angeles, parents divorced, worked for an insurance company, met Manson, left her last paycheck, stole her Daddy's gas credit card and used it, cared for children, participated in the TLB murders.

Outstanding characteristics:  She carried her brain in a lunch box.  She was really hairy.
Leslie Louise Van Houten, a/k/a Lulu, Leslie Marie Sankston, Leslie Sue, Leslie Owens.  Born in Los Angeles, California, father was an auctioneer, mother was a teacher, parents adopted 2 Korean kids, High School princess, got knocked up and got abortion, got on drugs, hooked up with the Manson family thru Gypsy & Bobby, participated in LaBianca murders, only stabbed a dead lady 16 times.

Outstanding characteristics:  She attracted lots of men with her Horse teeth.
Linda Drouin Kasabian, a/k/a Linda Christian, Yana the Witch, Linda Chiochios.  Born in Biddeford, Maine.  Became a hippy, got married a lot, got knocked up a lot, joined the Manson family thru Gypsy, stole $5,000 from a hapless guy that was too scared of Charlie to get it back, was the “lookout” at the Cielo Drive murders, threw away the weapons and clothes, told Charlie the next night where Nader lived, but that she couldn’t “kill like he does”, ran away, was the State’s star witness against the others, after all the trials had lots of kids and got them on drugs.

Outstanding characteristics:  “oh, but she’s too sweet to be a killer because she has pigtails!!”
Charles “No Name” Maddox, a/k/a Charles Milles Manson, Charles Maddox, the Wizard, God, JC, Soul, the Devil.  Born in Cincinnati, Ohio to 16 year old Kathleen Maddox, was passed around to different family members and spent time in boy’s homes, jails and prisons, paroled from Terminal Island in 1967, moved to the Haight and started gathering young girls to start his family, told people they couldn’t wear glasses or watches, tried to get a musical career going, threw knives at people, molested young girls, asked people to die for him, decided that the Beatles liked him, shot Bernard Crowe, was convinced that Gary Hinman had money and he deserved it, got pissed off in general and people died, helped kill Shorty Shea, arrested in October 1969 for the last time, orchestrated the shenanigans at the trial.

Outstanding characteristics:  He can have fun sometimes. Also he can make smoke come out of his ears and he can hear a dog whistle.

========================================================================


Photos submitted by Gary Stewart. Thank You Gary.

164 comments:

katie8753 said...

It's funny that Pittman said that Linda & Tex were inseparable, but Linda didn't seem to know about the "baby food speed jar".

katie8753 said...

People often say to me "what do you mean?"

Then I say "what do you mean, what do I mean"?

Then they say "what do you mean, what do I mean, what did you mean"?

It goes on and on....

matt prokes said...

Ultimately the people who did the actual killing are responsible but if you're going with the whole who was in control of their minds angle I would say It went from Charlie to Tex to the others

katie8753 said...

MATT!!! Good to see you!!! :)

Mrstormsurge said...

any of these people who went to cielo ever have any contact with any of the victims before that night? forgive my ignorance but if the answer to this is "no" then it would seem to me to point to manson as the one who directed them there.

Gary Stewart said...

I'll go with Tex and Linda were going to Cielo and Charlie sent Pat and Susan with them.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Matt & Stormy. I agree with both of you.

Manson likes to say he wasn't in charge of these people. That's ludicrous. The fact that these people carved "X"s in their foreheads and shaved their heads just because he did is so much proof of his dominion over them.

Manson likes to say he didn't order murder. But that contradicts the testimony of the killers. But I guess if you're a Manson supporter, you just chalk it up to everyone is lying except Charlie.

The really sad thing is, to me, is that these kids who really "loved" Manson believed everything he said. They were conned, and they lost most of their lives.

I think that when Manson first started up in 1967, he was just having fun. Gathering wayward, lost kids and messing with their brains, stealing cars, stealing credit cards and just roving around. I think he regarded these kids as the family he never really had. And maybe he really cared about them. Maybe...

But by 1969, things started changing. Manson was one of those strange people who thought the world owed him a big fucking favor. And when the world didn't bend over for him, that made him mad. He started getting angry about a lot of things that he wanted to happen but they didn't, and he used those same kids to exact his revenge.

katie8753 said...

Hi Gary! Good to see you!

Gary said: I'll go with Tex and Linda were going to Cielo and Charlie sent Pat and Susan with them.

Uh, I'm not sure what that means. Do you mean that Tex & Linda were going to Cielo Drive alone and then Charlie sent Pat & Susan? Why? It's kind of unclear. Thanks!

MrPoirot said...

Charlie was bitter after he was imprisoned in the 50s while he was pimping. He felt he had poor control over his girls so in prison he began to teach himself how to be a better pimp. He studied Scientology and mind control. When he was released he found himself among easily influenced hippies so he dropped the pimp dream and took up the Guru robes.
All his prison mind control studying had given him far more power over the hippies than he ever had over his hookers.

Then the perfect storm occurred. The LSD gave him a schidzoid episode. He quickly reprogrammed his hippies with a violent, apocalyptic, end-of-times ideology and pointed them at his enemies and told them to kill at the peak of his paranoid frenzy.

Without Charlie nobody would have died.

katie8753 said...

Wow, Pimp to Guru. I think you're on to something Mr. P. I agree!! Thanks!

katie8753 said...

Night for now y'all!!! :)

MrPoirot said...

There is a book by David Irving called "Hitlers War" which lays the blame for WW2 on this one man named Hitler. Over 50mil died in his war. Irving writes about the night the war started. Hitler and seven people got into a car and drove to a command headquarters where the attack on Poland was directed which started WW2. No one else knew about what was going on that night. No one else was consulted. Seven people decided on their own to start an Armageddon. They falsely claimed Poland had attacked Germany.

It was very similar to Tex and the girls driving off in Swartze's car at Spahn Ranch and headed to Cielo. They claimed Melcher had gone back on his word.

Gary Stewart said...

Just an opinion, I think Tex was going to rob the people at Cielo and he completely lost control of the situation. He shot Steve in a panic, the victim's started fighting back. Why cut the phone cables if he is going to leave everyone dead?
Hi Katie, I think it was Tex that told Charlie he was going to rob Cielo and Linda was going with him. Charlie told him he'd send a couple of extra girls to help out.

Doc Sierra said...

"Chiochios"..... That reminds me of that famous bull fighter, Eduardo Curochio.....

Marliese said...

I think both Charlie and Tex were in charge. Charlie ordering, Tex delivering. Tex was stoned all that day, probably couldn't have put two thoughts together, but Charlie came back to the ranch...after his travels with Stephanie, to disaster, and snapped. He was told that Mary and Sandy had been arrested that afternoon and were in jail, BB had been picked up for Hinman, and then there had been the Crowe "killing" before he took off. He didn't know Crowe wasn't dead, and thought Tex owed him. So...it was time for Tex to help him now. Charlie sent them to Cielo to murder, not after Melcher, he knew Melcher was out of there...but the race thing..."leave a sign", get their money while you're carving them up, and make BB look innocent, even though Beausoleil had been picked up driving Gary's car, with the murder weapon.

I don't think Tex was in a panic when he he killed poor Steven. I doubt he expected to see him, but quickly shot him...four times.

He rounded them up and shot Jay for trying to protect Sharon, and stabbed him up when he saw he wasn't dead, and told the others they were all gonna die, I doubt because they had only 70 dollars. They went there to kill, and make it look bad.

i believe Charlie, and somebody else, went back later to see what had been done, altered the scene, left the glasses etc.

Marliese said...

Charlie was in charge the second night too, with tex and crew delivering. He chose the house...maybe as simple as he remembered Leno from Leno complaining about party noise next door, I don't know. But he helped himself up to the open side door, went in, got Rosemary out of bed, tied them up, and left them to be slaughtered. Too dumb to know he's just as guilty as the killers. Helter 'skealter' and rise in blood, wallet left in a toilet in a black neighborhood...

Tex had no problem killing though, and neither did Patricia Krenwinkel.

Marliese said...

Charlie also ordered Shorty's murder, Tex and Grogan and Bruce killed him, but Charlie ordered it and was there by the time Shorty was out of the car and down the hill.

Mrstormsurge said...

Gary,

My thoughts/hypotheses: Tex shot Steven Parent right off the bat. Stone cold dead before they entered that house. He had already murdered, rather indiscriminantly and stupidly (what if the people in the house had heard the shot or a neighbor had heard it and called the police?). So, Tex was imo already at least somewhat out of control before he entered that house. On the cutting of the phone wires, I think that may have been because he wanted to commit mayhem and didn't want the victims to have any chance of summoning help. So, I think there was a combination of knowing he was going to slaughter people but doing it as an amped up psychopathic nutball that he was.

Marliese said...

Totally agree with you Mrstormsurge. He was the devil, there to do the devil's business. Great description...'amped up psychopathic nutball.'

MrPoirot said...

Marliese said:
[quote]Tex had no problem killing though, and neither did Patricia Krenwinkel[end quote]

Poirot reples:
Sadie ran her mouth more and lent her name to two books and even claimed to have killed Sharon so she garnered more notoriety but Krenny's violence at both Cielo and Waverly is unsurpassed except for Tex yet she is almost left out the story. Gibby might possibly have leaped over the split rail fence and escaped to alert neighbors and thus prevent the Labianca murder from ever occurring were it not for Krenny running her down like a Cheetah. I've always wondered how Krenny was able to dredge up so much anger. All the girls in the Family were prettier and got more air time than Krenny but she was key at both homes to the killers winning out over the residents. She incredibly vicious on both nights. She was more vicios than most male killers can be.
I can't remember Krenny ever having a BF. All the other girls had guys that pursued them but I can not recall Krenny having a BF who pursued her. Did this bother her? Did she ever have a BF?
Much has been made of Krenny's condition of being hairy. Was that the reason she was the most violent?
Krenny and Tex were the prime killers as Marliese said. Krenny was more violent than Bruce and Clem together. She was obviously an extremely mean and angry woman. Charlie no doubt noticed this about Krenny which led him to select her for both nights.
Patricia Krenwnkle was absolutely the most violent girl of all the Manson girls. Nobody but Tex could match her ferocity.

katie8753 said...

Whew! It's been one of those days!!

First of all, I'd like to apologize to Marliese for it taking me 5 or 6 hours to post her comments. That's why I hate the moderation.

It's not fair to people who take the time to write out comments and have to wait hours for them to be posted. Usually I can check it every hour or so, but today was not one of those days.

katie8753 said...

Next, I like all of your comments. Good thinking going on.

Tex and Pat were definitely killing machines those 2 nights.

I was wondering why Tex cut the phone lines at Cielo and not Waverly. The only thing I can think of is that Cielo was a sprawling estate that had 2 houses. And a phone in each one. If someone in the main house couldn't get to a phone, perhaps maybe someone in the guest house could??? I'm not sure.

MrPoirot said...

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_ElrkoC8Y6ow/S_S_xfhQArI/AAAAAAAACR0/72-popHyvko/BarkerRanchTexWatsonTheMansonFamily1%5B1%5D.jpg?imgmax=800

Look at this pic of the fake grave at Barker Ranch. At the bottom of the pic is a fork sticking out of the rocks. Look at the middle rock on the bottom row. Atop that rock is the fork resting nearly horizontal.
Did Krenny make this grave and put that fork there? Who else knew of the fork she left in Leno?

katie8753 said...

Gary, if Linda & Tex were in charge that night, why did Linda shy away? And how did Charlie even know about it?

Just thinking out loud....

Stormy & Marliese, I agree, Tex was so drugged up he probably didn't even know his own name. Someone else was calling the shots.

And who would that be? Charlie?

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, I agree, Krenny was the most zealous of the women killers. She did some bizarre, horrible things. I'm sure it had to do with her not having a BF, that Charlie told her she was beautiful, etc., etc.

The con man and his shill.

katie8753 said...

Doc!!! Eduardo Curochio

The kind you would meet at Ray's Pizza!! LOL.

Marliese said...

WMr P...I agree, she was a mean and vicious killer those two nights, and isn't it interesting that she was always described by other family members as soft spoken and gentle...the caregiver to the children.

On one hand, I wonder if she killed out of her love for and devotion to Charlie...he was the only man that wanted anything to do with her, that didn't find her unattractive, and she held on for years...she'd been in prison many years before she finally let go of him. I think he cared about her too, remember when he saw part of her interview with Dianne Sawyer and said 'she got old on me.' On the other hand, I think, no...there's far more to it than that...she had it in her to kill.

Your scenario of Abigail possibly being able to get over the fence and get out if not for Krenny gave me chills. She did get out that bedroom door to the yard, and Krenny chased her down like a wild animal, who can forget Abigail's last words...Stop I'm already dead.

And how violent and vicious she was to Rosemary, and Leno...twanging a carving fork in him, cutting letters into his dead flesh...she claims she has no memory of that, but I think she did it when tex was stabbing Rosemary...

Your post was a good read!

Marliese said...

Sorry about the typos, ipad won't let me edit...

katie8753 said...

Oh good comments all! :)

I just had a thought. If the motives for Cielo Drive & Waverly were due to "drug burns" how come none of the killers ever mentioned it? Not ever!

You'd think they would pick up on Bobby's excuse that it was due to a drug burn to make themselves look less psychotic. But they never did!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I agree.

After Tex, Krenwinkel takes second prize.

Doc Sierra said...

Famous Ray's or Original Ray's?

Gary Stewart said...

Everyone makes very good points.
There's a utility pole inside the grounds near the gate control button. There's at least one cable cut at this pole.
The phone pole outside the gate, both the phone cable and intercom cable that run from that pole to the house bypass the utility pole inside the grounds. Looks like Tex was inside the grounds cutting cables as well. That's when I think Steve spotted him .

Gary Stewart said...

Something caught Steve's eye to make him reverse into the fence.

katie8753 said...

Doc: it's Original Ray's. It's on 1st and 1st street, at the nexus of the Universe. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Gary I thought Tex only climbed one pole????

Doc Sierra said...

Yes Katie, I know how to use a mop wringer.....

Gary Stewart said...

The utility pole inside the grounds is a lot smaller.
There's a photo of Mike McCann at the utility pole holding a cable cut from it.

MrPoirot said...

Parent saw the killers while he was walking to his car. Linda told the commune leader in Taos where she fled to that she and the others saw a man with a briefcase(clock radio?) walk from the house to a car.

The storys of headlights suddenly appearing are an evasive oversimplification of events. "Headlights suddenly appearing" is a synopsis; a half truth. Experienced liars are experts at using half truths to tell lies and get away with it.

Gary Stewart said...

Mr P ,
The killers would have to be in the driveway then for Steve to see them while walking from the house? Or maybe he seen them at the utility pole inside the grounds?

MrPoirot said...

Gary it was Linda who saw Parent walk from the house to the car so she was over the fence. Why else would Parent back into the curb and knock down the fence if he did not see them prior to being shot.

Marliese said...

Is it certain that it was Steven who put the car in reverse, and hit the fence? The car was damaged, the fence was damaged but it could have happened when Tex and crew rolled the car back up toward the garage area, no? It's not easy to maneuver a car backwards by pushing, especially when you're an 'amped up psychopathic nut job' with loser skanks helping. Tex says he put it in neutral and rolled it, but all of them are notorious liars. I think it probably was tex and the girls, with the car maybe not rolling easily uphill, even in neural, and poor dead Steven slumped over inside.

katie8753 said...

Doc said: Yes Katie, I know how to use a mop wringer.....

HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Why would Parent be scared to just see people walking on the driveway?

MrPoirot said...

Parent would be scared because he saw four people in black in the bushes and the phone lines were down on the parking lot pavement.
He may even have seen the large pistol Tex carried. That gun was longer than a foot.
The cement on the curb was chipped by the cars undercarriage. The post was broken in two. The car was definitely running and Parent most likely bounced when the rear tires rode up on the curb.

MrPoirot said...

Parent would have also seen Tex with the coils of rope over his shoulder or around his neck.

katie8753 said...

Well, could be Mr. P, but what if Parent was just a crummy driver and hit the curb?

MrPoirot said...

I think Parent knew exactly what he was doing behind the wheel. There was no way out once he got in the car. I think it dawned on him the dark clothed people were dangerous slightly after he had put the car in reverse. If he had realized it before he was in the car he would have run. I still think he saw the killers and the downed lines first and may have tried to act like he didn't see them. He was probably formulating his response as he walked up to his car but as soon as he closed his door his fate was sealed.

katie8753 said...

Well, that could be Mr. P. I'm trying to think back to 1969, and we really didn't have a whole lot to be afraid of back then. Of course, I guess it depends on where you lived.

I can't imagine that people walking around in dark clothing would have scared him that much, but if, like you say, he saw a weapon in Tex's hand, then of course, he would have panicked.

According to Tex, he said "I won't tell", which indicates there was something to tell, which would mean that Parent sensed these people were not there for a friendly visit, but rather a serious matter.

So I guess in evaluating all this, you're probably right, Parent panicked and backed up too fast.

As a footnote, I wish he had just gunned his motor and ran Tex down and crashed the gate. That would have put a stop to a lot of murder.

Marliese said...

Just my opinion, I don't think Steven saw anyone except Tex as the car got close to the gate, I dont think he had time to do anything but quickly put his arm up defensively as he was shot four times and slashed with a knife. And if he did put the car in reverse, where was he gonna go? I think the car hit the fence after he was shot.

MrPoirot said...

Parent probably thought he was in the safest neighborhood in all LA and had all his guard down yet he still cranked it into high gear mentally after only a few seconds notice. Parent reacted amazingly fast it seems. He was trying to haul ass soon as he cranked the car.
The story Linda and the others told was that Parent only reacted when Tex yelled halt when the car got to Tex. The whole thing was probably only 10 seconds and Parent was in full self defense after 5 seconds. That is a pretty damn quick reaction to go from total lull to all out self defense mode.

Did Tex stab and shoot Parent while the car was against the fence? No. Parent was heading to the gate. Tex was still 30 feet away when Parent backed into the fence.

Marliese said...

Amen to that Katie! Hindsight and all, but I wish the same...have thought it so many times...gunned and crashed through, or too bad he couldn't have been a minute or two earlier...

katie8753 said...

Marliese, the whole scenario is a little confusing, and of course, the only thing we can rely on is testimony of killing scumbag drug addicts, which means nothing because they're all liars.

It doesn't really matter what Tex says, or Linda says, or Susan says, all we have is physical evidence. The car did crash as a result of backing into the curb (actually I think it backed into the fence). We're talking about a matter of seconds really. And I do believe the only person he saw was Tex.

If Parent walked to his car and started it up, saw Tex walking up with a gun or knife, he might have panicked. In fact, I think he probably did.

I'm trying to put myself in his place. He was just casually dropping by to see a friend to sell a clock radio, and when that didn't happen, he was off to see another friend. He wasn't expecting the intrusion.

In the split-second timing he had to make a decision, he probably just froze and hoped that if he told the intruder he wouldn't say anything, he could get out of there alive.

Yeah, if only he had left Garrettson's place a few minutes earlier, he'd have been outta there.

Or if he had the knowledge of the bestial carnage that was to be inflicted, he could have just run those drug addled freaks over and busted the gate open.

MrPoirot said...

Its not really hindsight because when Parent backed into the fence his car is pointed at a 90 deg angle to the gate. Parent turned to his right and was heading to the gate when Tex shot him. The car could be seen from the road so they pushed it backwards and turned it to the hillside out of view.
Its only 50 ft from where Parent hit the curb to the gate.
Tex was already out the bushes and on the pavement when Parent backed up. They both were looking at each other all the way from the curb to the gate.

There really isn't any other way it could have happened judging by Linda's story she told the commune leader in Taos about watching a man walking from the house carrying a brief case(clock radio).
Linda never knew about the clock radio because she said in Taos it was a brief case.
This also means linda made no attempt to get Parent's wallet like tex told her because if she had she would have looked for the brief case too.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, Linda is a LIAR. Did you not know that?

I'll repeat. You can't rely on these drug-addled killers' word. You can only rely on physical evidence.

katie8753 said...

The only thing I know from physical evidence is that Parent's car backed into the fence, and he was found dead in his car.

What Tex said, or Susan said, or Linda said is non consequential.

MrPoirot said...

Katie we do have actual evidence. z
We have the marks on the curb.
We know where the car ended up.
We have more than one killer saying they pushed the car backward so we have corroboration.
If they pushed it backwards then we know where it was before they pushed it because it never got through the gate.
So now we know three points where Parent's car was stopped.

Simply calling them liars wont work as far as dismissing their statements. When four liars corroborate the others then you have a truth..You can piece together truths from liars all day long if you are familiar with logic and corroboration.
We know the phone lines were cut seconds after Parent left the guest house so we know Parent saw the downed lines. We know the lines were cut after the killers jumped the fense.
We can now take what the killers said and determine what was a lie and what wasn't. We have Linda telling what happened to three people in three different places on three different dates.
Elementary Watson.

Gary Stewart said...

The fence Steve hit is just behind where Jays car is parked. If his car hit the fence while Tex was pushing it back up the driveway it means he then pushed it back towards the gate.

Gary Stewart said...

Katie,
I've a few photos of where Steve was parked and the fence he hit, they are marked out, all that stuff. Where can I send them and you can post them up ?

Marliese said...

Yes, it's evident the car hit the fence, but unless you were there and saw Steven put the car in reverse and hit the fence, it can't be said with absolute certainty how it happened. And no, we don't know that "Parent saw the downed lines." We "know" the lines had been cut, we "know" they were down and hanging over the gate...as seen in the photo of the gate, but we do not "know" that Steven saw them hanging over the gate, and we never will.

And yes, it is with hindsight to wish the poor kid had left the property a few minutes earlier.

louis365 said...

I digress - Nothing is simple about this case...

Gary Stewart said...

Once you see it in the photos then it makes sense.

katie8753 said...

Marliese, I was going to say the same thing. We don't "know" that he saw the downed lines.

In fact, all we know about Parent is that he was at Cielo Drive (his body was found there), that he was shot & cut (the autopsy report revealed that) and he had a clock radio on the seat. As to what Parent saw, thought or heard is simply a guess.

I would think that the amount of PD (Property Damage) done to the car and the property would indicate whether or not the car was being driven or being pushed. I wouldn't think that pushing the car into something would cause as much PD as driving the car into something.

Does anyone have a closeup photo of the PD?

Gary, you can send those pics to lynyrdskynyrdband@gmail.com and Lynyrd can put them up or I'll put them up. BUT...if they're watermarked by another blog or website, we can't put them up without permission.

Marliese said...

Yes, Gary, the broken fence is up by the parking area, point being, there is evidence that the car hit the fence, but we don't know with certainty how it happened. Was Steven really almost to the gate? Did Lying Linda really see him walking from the guesthouse carrying the radio?

It reminds me of so much else about the crime scene, the blood on the porch for example, and the question of whether the crime scene left by the killers is the crime scene discovered by the police?

Gary Stewart said...

No not water marked.

Gary Stewart said...

Sent them.

Gary Stewart said...

It's easier to explain with the photos marliese. I think Steve parked between the garage and Abigail's car, reversed and smacked the fence then drove towards the gate. If I hit a fence at someone's house I'd get out and see what damage I'd done.

Marliese said...

My thoughts exactly, Katie. Thanks for your understanding.

Were Tex and Steven really "looking at each other all the way from the curb to the gate" as Poirot says? Etc etc etc. Was Tex 30 feet away when Steven hit the fence, if it was Steven that hit the fence? How would Steven have gotten away from Tex by "putting the car in reverse" that close to the parking area? Where was he gonna go...? There was only one way out. Did Steven see all of them or just Tex? Did he see the downed phone lines? Could he have hit the fence/curb backing out of where he was parked, before he encountered Tex? Did Tex and crew hit the curb/fence pushing the car to its crooked position? Or did someone else? Funny that none of the liars mention seeing or hearing Steven hitting the fence, or have they? Yet Lying Linda says she saw him walking. And neither have any of them said they hit the curb/fence pushing it etc etc not that I've heard or read. There are questions, and I'm just not comfortable with the idea of speaking with certainty about what that dead boy knew or didn't know. We know there is evidence that at some point and somehow the car hit the fence and curb, and Steven was shot four times and cut.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Gary Stewart emailed additional photos for this thread.
I added them.
Thanks Gary.

I bumped this thread back to the top, because it's getting more participation than the other one.
Evidently, no one really gives a shit if/when Manson is gonna croak. Lmao
(Can't say that I blame ya, quite frankly... LOL)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Or, as Dilligaf always says... "the wooly hophead". Lmao

Marliese said...

Hi Gary, thanks for the photos.

Lynyrd...LOL! :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

BTW...
Has anyone heard from Venus?
She completely disappeared without a trace.

I'd like to see our friend and author Chris resurface as well... he's a good guy.

FYI-
Leonard Nimoy has passed.
I was never a Trekkie... but nonetheless, he was a household name.

MrPoirot said...



Blogger Gary Stewart said...
It's easier to explain with the photos marliese. I think Steve parked between the garage and Abigail's car, reversed and smacked the fence then drove towards the gate. If I hit a fence at someone's house I'd get out and see what damage I'd done
................................

Gary are you sure you'd go check for damage if four people dressed in black were after you?
I don't think you have thought about this at all.

Parent knew he was going to be murdered. He saw downed power lines, the gun, the coiled rope, Tex and the three girls. Parent saw everything and everyone in that small parking lot. Nobody and nothing could be missed under those intimate circumstances.
Parent didn't walk into that parking lot and suddenly become Mr Mcgoo.
Two strands of 80ft long phone lines were on the pavement and Parent missed that?

katie8753 said...

Thanks Lynyrd. Thanks for the pics Gary.

I see what you mean, it looks like Parent might have parked by Abigail's car, then when he backed up he probably hit the fence. But if that's the case, I don't think it was because he was scared, because I don't think he would have seen the killers until after he put the car in drive, turned to the right and headed for the gate.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd I hear from Venus from time to time on e-mail. She's doing okay, just doesn't have access to a computer a lot of the time. Hopefully that will change and she can join us...

Gary Stewart said...

If I hadn't seen anyone then yes I'd check for damage.
Say Steve gets into his car and starts it. Tex and Linda are on the grounds, Tex at the utility pole and Linda on the driveway. Linda tells Tex someone is coming. Tex walks towards Steve's car with the gun. Steve is reversing and sees Tex coming towards him which makes him hit the fence. Tex points the gun and shouts halt but Steve now in a panic drives towards the gate and stops to be met by Linda and her knife, she slices at his hand as he hit the gate button and managed to cut him as he got his hand back in the car. The gate is opening just as Tex gets to the car and Tex let's off 4 rounds to stop Steve getting away.
Something along those lines.

Gary Stewart said...

There was only one line down and it was caught on other cables. You can see it in photos.

MrPoirot said...

Parent would not have parked next to Gibby's car. That was where the beautiful people parked. Parent would have parked under the stairs on the garage.....DIRECTLY UNDER THE SAGGING PHONE LINES.

Gary Stewart said...

Look at it this way. If it was you driving in for the first time to that driveway where would you park ?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Marliese! : )

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I gotta hand it to ya Katie...

I just read this thread closely, and it's freakin' hilarious.
Those descriptions are a scream... especially the "outstanding characteristics" part(s). LOL

"She carried her brain in a lunch box". Ahahahaha!!

I almost choked on my drink.
(That's a Harold True Classic quote right there!)

Good job.
A+ for sheer entertainment value...

katie8753 said...

Thanks Lynyrd. I was wondering if anyone actually read the thread. That Harold True is a SCREAM!!! LOL.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, did they have "reserved" parking spaces with their names on there? :)

MrPoirot said...

Parent had been to Cielo before. Patricia said she knew him. Listen to Brian's podcast.
Garretson was super paranoid about keeping a low profile. Parent would have told his friends not to park in movie star parking spaces.
Parent was even paranoid about hearing the gunshots that killed Parent. He made a mental note to bitch at Parent the next time he saw him about setting off firecrackers and disturbing the beautiful people in the main house.
Do you really think Parent let his pals park in the good spots especially when one of the women was pregnant?

MrPoirot said...

Oops. Correction: GARRETSON was even paranoid about hearing the gunshots that killed Parent.....

MrPoirot said...

Correction 2
Do you really think GARRETSON let his pals park in the good..........

katie8753 said...

Mr. P said: Parent had been to Cielo before. Patricia said she knew him. Listen to Brian's podcast.

Mr. P, we know that Parent had been there before. That's when he met Garretson hitchhiking, he took him home. I don't remember parking being an issue.

What podcast are you talking about? And who is Patricia?

katie8753 said...

It's sad that the house had to be pummeled because of the Manson Family. It was built to be a beautiful home but turned into a house of horrors.

katie8753 said...

Oh well, night y'all! :)

katie8753 said...

In the words of Albert Schweitzer,

"Das ist in Ordnung". :)

louis365 said...

Parent didn't see the downed line because he tripped on the way to his car.

MrPoirot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MrPoirot said...

Blogger MrPoirot said...
Parent backed STRAIGHT BACK into the fence from his parking spot parallel to the stair case on the garage.

Why did Tex not stay in the bushes and let Parent leave?
Because Tex saw Parent speed backwards and knock the fence down which made it obvious Parent saw Tex and the girls before he got into his car.

Picture 6'2" Tex standing in the middle of the parking lot with both his arms extended up and out holding the Longhorn revolver in one hand and the long bayo in the other hand with that big coil of white rope around his shoulder standing in your head light beams all lit up yelling "halt!!"
You are staring at the Devil and you have a front row seat to act one, scene one of Helter Skelter.

katie8753 said...

You know, almost nothing about this case makes any sense. Whether Parent parked by Folger's car, or by the garage, he had to back up at least 3 or 4 car lengths to hit that fence. That's what it looks like in the pics. Which is kinda of strange. Why back up that much?

From the position of where the car ended up after Tex backed it up, it appears that Parent was at the gate area when he was killed, so how did he see Tex when he got in his car? You have to curve around to get to the gate.

katie8753 said...

I was looking at pics of Cielo Drive and it's funny that Linda said Tex told her to walk around and see if any windows were open. It looks like in the pics they were mostly all open.

MrPoirot said...

Why back up that much?


Because it was live or die. What would it matter if the cars wheels were out of alignment if he could just escape alive?

Parent would have survived if he had floored the car in reverse and flew off the mountain through the air like Evel Knevel over Snake River Canyon.

Marliese said...

Mr. Poirot said>>>>When four liars corroborate the others then you have a truth..You can piece together truths from liars all day long if you are familiar with logic and corroboration.>>>>
>>>>>We can now take what the killers said and determine what was a lie and what wasn't. We have Linda telling what happened to three people in three different places on three different dates.>>>>>

No, we can't take what the killers said and determine what was a lie, and what wasn't.

Four liars corroborating lies does not make truth out of lies.

Truthful killers? Seriously?

Marliese said...

Those are great pictures, Gary. Thanks again. I've seen one or two before, but a long time ago,
It's eerie looking at such sad photos of that house and surrounding property. Katie, agree with you, so sad it came down because of the murders.

By the time it was destroyed, It would have taken millions to restore it...Rudy Altobelli wasn't known for keeping it up, still...its a shame. Remember the video Venus posted of the house and property when Michele Morgan had it built, and lived there...from an old movie magazine maybe? It was beautiful. Peaceful and beautiful.

Waverly still stands, and it takes your breath away when you come around the curve and there it is..I am always tempted to stand ithere looking for original aspects of it...beyond the monster shanty town carport cut into the once beautiful hill etc

louis365 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marliese said...

Katie, can you imagine how many times that fence must have been hit thru the years? The garage area looks old, even though it was only 20 some years old at the time. Looks like there is something junked behind it, too.

I've always wondered about the area of the house from the foyer through the dining room and kitchen and the bedroom on that side...not much in videos and photos of that end of the house, we chatted one time about the pass through window from the dining room to the living room.

And the wishing well...it endured through years, mostly original according to various photos, except for the bucket being gone.

Can imagine the beautiful sunlight streaming in all across the front for so long...till that dark legacy took over.

MrPoirot said...

Marliese, suspects become defendants because police discovered they were lying after trying to corroborate their story.

Gary Stewart said...

That interview Linda done and she said she got in Steve's car and took his wallet. Sure his wallet was found on him. What money did she take ??

katie8753 said...

Marliese I remember that video of the house when Michele Morgan lived there. That house used to be so elegant. I can post that video in case anyone wants to watch it again.

Yes that house was in general disrepair even after only 20 something years. It looked nothing like it did when Michele lived there.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought the furniture that they had in the house in 1969 was ratty & shabby. The couch didn't even match the armchair. It looked to me like furniture you'd get at a garage sale. A far cry from the beautiful furnishings that Michele filled the house with.

And there was a lot of junk lying around outside. You can see in one pic and old dishwasher and water dispenser sitting on the back porch by the service entrance.

Yes that pass thru window was so quaint and charming back in the 40's, but it looks like it was never even used by 1969.

There is one video that shows Cielo Drive while 9 Inch Nails lived there. A guy is walking around with a camcorder and he goes into the dining area, kitchen, bathroom on that end of the house, and I think a quick look at the end of the house near the service entrance. I'll see if I can find it. I wish the guy had slowed down when he was filming the kitchen. But you can stop it and compare to pics from 1969 and a lot of the stuff is the same. I'll see if I can find that video.

revatron said...

Did Parent's car have damage to the back bumper? I can't recall reading that anywhere.
If it was Steve, I'm of the opinion that he backed straight into the fence from a parked position next to the stairs.
Considering his bad timing it's possible that the cable Tex cut fell right on his car after he got in, giving him a scare.

MrPoirot said...

Rev I think the lines were down just a minute or two before he got to the car because Tex was over the fence by the time Parent was leaving. The lines may have only been cut as little as 30 seconds prior to Parent getting in the car. However, Parent may have seen the lines fall from the wishing well.

MrPoirot said...

The police did find scrape marks underneath Parents car from hitting the curb.

katie8753 said...

Revatron, this is from the First Tate Homocide Report:

Officers noted that the split-rail fence which runs to the north of the garage area was broken, and that scrape marks appeared, on the curb directly in front of the split-rail fence. The scrape marks and the break in the split-rail fence appeared fresh. A search of the undercarriage of Parent's car revealed similar scrape marks and concrete transfer. The rear bumper of the car also showed white paint transfer similar to that as on the split-rail fence.

katie8753 said...

Oops, I meant "homicide", not "HOMOcide". HA HA.

revatron said...

Awesome, thanks Katie.

Marliese said...

Katie, thanks so much for the Cielo video! You're so great that way...someone mentions something, and you find and post it...thanks! I never get tired looking at the house as Michele Morgan had it...

katie8753 said...

You're welcome Marliese! I love that video too!! :)

CarolMR said...

Katie, I agree with you about the Cielo house in 1969. The outside and the grounds were just beautiful. But the inside, what we saw of it, seemed a little un-cared for. Certainly not decorated in the way Ms. Morgan had it decorated. But I assume that was Mr. Altobelli's fault, not Sharon's.

katie8753 said...

Hi Carol! Yeah I think the furniture was just there when Sharon & Roman moved in. Probably rental furniture. Sharon & Roman had some nice furniture on Summit Drive, but that probably belonged to Patty Duke.

I don't know why they didn't have their own furniture.

Krissy Deen said...

I remember reading somewhere that the only actual furniture in Cielo that belonged to the Polanski's was their bed. ( besides pictures, etc)I wish I could remember where I read that but I can't guarantee that it's 100% true. I know the rocking chair was also bought there by Doris Tate.
However, I have seen pictures of others in the house prior to Roman & Sharon ( pretty sure one was from the group Paul Revere & the Raiders) where it has the same piano, etc. Even the calendar in the living room I believe (?) was still from 1968 so I don't think the Polanski's did much decorating, they really weren't there all that long.
I always thought it was a cool house...kind of small but it would have worked for me! I loved the barn style of it with the loft. That was my favorite part of the house along with the great view it had. It wasn't until I saw some of the pictures on Cielodrive.com that I realized it was actually already pretty run down in areas when Sharon lived there.
I've also heard that Sharon actually preferred Patti Duke's house on Summit Drive over Cielo which makes sense to me if that is true. If looked like a really well kept and cheerful place to live. Thanks Katie for that video by the way. it was interesting to watch.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Krissy! I figured that the furnishings at Cielo when Sharon & Roman rented it were already there. And yes I believe that rocking chair was Doris Tate's.

Sharon wanted to buy the house at Summit but Roman balked at the selling price, and Patty Duke wanted to sell it, so they had to move out. I get the feeling that Roman didn't want any long term commitment to living in the USA, so they rented.

I found several videos of Michele Morgan at Cielo Drive, one of which shows Michele at a piano also. Don't know if it's the same piano. I think that when Michele sold the home, she took all of her furnishings.

It's interesting to note that when Michele lived at Cielo, there were curtains on the windows, but in 1969 there weren't. I guess she took those too. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Hey Lynyrd, check your e-mail! :)

MrPoirot said...

Day 5 of the Arias penalty phase. The jury is still deadlocked. A woman is holding up the works. Her name is Edith.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, LOL. I feel that this jury will not be able to agree on the death penalty and remain deadlocked too.

The defense has changed its strategy and now instead of "self defense" it's just plain "mental illness". This jury hasn't heard half of what the first one heard. If they believe she's mentally ill, they won't put her to death.

katie8753 said...

Well, the Arias jury is hung. Sentencing will take place April 13th.

Cielodrive.Com said...

Every once and awhile I come upon comments that refer to 10050 Cielo Drive in 1969 as a “dump.” Often times these comments make comparisons to the photographs of the house from the Michele Morgan era. Perhaps these comments are correct, after all, the house in 1969 was a rental.

But seriously, are we really comparing photographs taken by “House Beautiful” magazine, to photographs taken by police after five people were brutally murdered there?

katie8753 said...

Hi Cielo. When I was talking about the general run-down condition of Cielo Drive in 1969, I wasn't actually comparing it to the way it looked in the 40's when it was brand new. Of course a brand new house looks better than a house that is almost 30 years old.

I was talking about the general appearance of the house which, to me, showed that Altobelli probably didn't put a lot of time into maintenance. The fireplace was all smoked up, the rooms needed painting, the carpet looked old and dirty and there was quite a bit of junk piled around outside. That stuff has nothing to do with the murders.

And frankly, I would have replaced or at least re-painted that front door years before the murders.

And if the furniture was "rental furniture" that just speaks for itself.

Cielodrive.Com said...

Hi Katie, I understand what you're saying, I'm sure the house needed some repairs. But the difference between the crime scene photos and the Morgan era photos, is the that the latter are completely staged and do not at all reflect reality. Murders aside, the crime scene photos reflect the reality of a home that is lived in, by that, I mean messy, with various crap everywhere. To me the photo sets are incomparable. I'm more than positive, that had House Beautiful magazine photographed it in August '69, they'd stage it much better. Another thing about the crime scene photos, there is fingerprint dust everywhere and it makes a lot of stuff look completely filthy.

Cielodrive.Com said...

Oh, and Katie, I realize you are not comparing the two, but my comments are directed more to the people that do.

MrPoirot said...

Nurmi said Arias was used by Travis to satisfy his sexual desires and then called her "soulless". This got to her.
I agree but there is more to it than that.
Jodi had been cheated on or spurned for marriage by every BF she ever had. Her BF she had prior to Travis refused to marry her because of concerns he had over his young son and previous marriage. This may have been a last straw........and then she met a guy even worse. She met Travis who was the ultimate Christian hypocrite. Travis paid the price for Arias' BFs who cheated on her and refused to commit to marriage. For some reason Arias was attracted to nothing but guys who don't commit.
Travis though..... was a hyper hypocrite. If you give somebody a motive to kill you don't be surprised if they do. Travis tried to live two lives at once. He claimed he was a virgin Morman and kinky sex maniac at the same time.
Both Travis and Arias were troubled individuals struggling within themselves. Both had disappointing, difficult pasts evidenced by a fairly intelligent Arias not graduating high school and Travis being brought up by drug addicted parents in abject poverty.
Both Arias and Travis were trying to educate themselves. Travis himself never even attended a two year college which I find weird. What was he doing at age 19 and 20 that prevented him from taking a few classes at a Jr College? Many people take classes at Jr Colleges just for the Helluvit yet Travis never set foot on a college campus in his life. Why did Travis and Arias have such an aversion to school? I think it is because they both lived by their own rules.
There are many strange things about Travis and Arias' lives that don't add up.
Travis hypocritically was seeking out virgin college girls to marry while he himself was a 30 yrs old high school grad dating a sexually experienced high school drop out. There were many inconsistencies in Travis' life. The man was a walking dichotomy. This led to his own murder.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Cielo. I know that for a magazine shoot, everything is nice and tidy to make the most of the subject matter. And, of course, when you are doing a photo shoot of a brand new house with brand new furnishings, it really looks good.

And those household furnishings that used to garnish Cielo Drive by Michele were superb! Of course, Michele probably took all that stuff when she sold the house.

I guess for me, it's just a matter of thinking that "movie stars" lived in a "larger than life" house. I guess that's where a lot of my disappointment comes in.

And you're exactly right. Photos taken of a house that's "lived in" are much more messy than a photo shoot of a glamorous new house, that shoot being "staged".

So, with all that being said, the house was rundown with general maintenance issues, but the murder photos do not reflect the actual condition of the house.

I've wondered why the main house and the guest house had stuff thrown all around haphazardly, but I realize that probably is result of the police tearing through things and throwing things around. Chairs turned over, drawers hanging open and stuff strewn on the floor.

That has nothing to do with the occupants.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, Jodi Arias is a sociopath. She has no feelings for the victim or his family.

She will now be sentenced to life with or without parole.

She has lied about everything. And she will continue to.

The fact that the 1 juror who held out is contemptuous. That woman should not have been allowed on the jury.

There has to be some kind of legal retaliation for this boorish behavior.

Cielodrive.Com said...

Yeah, the house was definitely a mess. Total opposite of the LaBianca crime scene photos. The LaBianca's house was extremely clean. I assume it looked that way because they had been out of town.

MrPoirot said...

There are hints that both Travis and Jodi had sociopathic tendencies. Pathological liars exhibit a lack of empthy which is what a sociopath is: a person with no empathy. Both Travis and Jodi would casually tell whoppers to many people. For example Travis claiming he is a virgin to all those 20 yr old girls he dated who knew he was telling them a whopper. Everybody knew Travis was telling that lie and yet Travis continued to state he was a virgin. He casually broke church doctrine and would repent to the church priest and get absolved only to continue with the same promiscuous behavior while at the same time going around calling several people "soulless". Abe Abdulhadi was another person Travis called soulless besides Jodi.

katie8753 said...

Yes, the LaBianca house was in good shape for the time. Nice and neat.

I am kind of disappointed in the Hinman home though.

You look up at this trepidatatious homestead, a looming Tower of Babel, to climb up to the stars, but yet the home was dumpy. The walls were pink? What a disappointment.

But the fireplace rocked!! :)

katie8753 said...

Mr. P. Travis was a MAN! HELLO!!!

Men lie.

That's a fact of life.

Women know that.

Women either break up with them, or they kill them.

Jodi decided to kill.

She decided to show up unexpectedly, fuck him for 6 hours, ask him about who he was taking to Mexico, get the wrong answer, and proceeded to kill him. Including stabbing him 29 times, shooting him in the head, and trying to cut his head off.

I don't know what you think deserves death, but I think this does. Regardless of Travis' thoughts, verbal issues or actions, this does not include killing.

End of Story.

katie8753 said...

Now if y'all will excuse me, I'm gonna watch Eddy Murphy in The Nutty Professor. HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Okay I meant precipitous perch. Oh well, who cares? HA HA. Back to the movie....

katie8753 said...

Oh well I give up. Night y'all!

MrPoirot said...

Travis was Jodi's equal when it came to lying which is saying quite a lot. Theirs was a relationship built on lies.
All of Travis' relationships with women were built on lies. Jodi's lies began after she got arrested for murder. Travis lied as soon as he met a girl. He lied to everyone of them.
These two deserved each other which is probably why they couldn't stand each other.

Travis' virgin lie was a rather huge lie. I would not put the severity of that lie on the level of George's lie that he worked for Van Delay Industries.
Telling a Morman virgin female you are a 30 yr old virgin is a lie that could float above the stratosphere. Travis persisted with his lie abot virginity when EVERY single chick he knew was aware he was BSing. I simply can't understand why Travis thought it was to his benefit to tell such an obvious whopper. He was the laughing stock of his Morman dating ward. Every single chick in Travis' ward knew Travis as the guy who lies about being a virgin. Yet Travis kept on with this lie. I could see if Travis was getting away with this whopper but he never fooled anyone. These chicks knew he wasn't a virgin when they met him yet he still told them he was a virgin.
Travis' "virgin" lie was the equal of Jodi's Ninja story.

katie8753 said...

Travis' "virgin" lie was the equal of Jodi's Ninja story.

And...he deserved to be stabbed 29 times, get shot in the head, and get his head cut off?

Please Mr. P. You're reaching...

katie8753 said...

Okay I'm going to bed, starting NOW!

MrPoirot said...

Travis and Jodi got what they both earned for themselves. Jodi came damn close to getting what Travis got. These two people were very, very similar types of people.
Both had been scared by their family in childhood. If your parents turn you into the cops for growing a few pot plants on the roof in the eighth grade you can be assured that you have shit for parents.
If your parents are so strung out on drugs you end up in a camp ground living in a tent you know you have shit for parents.
Both Jodi's parents turned on her a second time with the police after Jodi was arrested for murder when it was obvious they should have kept silent especially since their testimony wasn't needed to convict her. Instead they showed Jodi once again they could not be trusted.

Fate gave Travis and Jodi really sorry parents. Their fates were sealed in childhood.

MrPoirot said...

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4097704387001/arias-jurors-blame-lifetime-movie-for-hung-jurors-bias/?#sp=show-clips

Jurors believe Arias escaped the death penalty because the holdout juror watched the movie on Jodi.

I never thought for a second the DA could get the DP for Arias. We have a double standard when it comes to women killers. Are DAs not aware of this fact? Does Martinez not know about double standards? We have double standards. They are part of how human beings work. You're not going to get the DP if the defendant is a nice looking woman.
Show me a more vicious killing than Arias committed yet they didn't get the DP.

The entire Arias trial was an exercise in how to blow a lot of money when trying a defendant.
The first thing you do in order to blow a lot of money is get Judge Sherry to preside over the trial. Half the five months in the Arias trial was spent in side bars. The other half is spent on holidays and time spent by Judge Sherry trying to make decisions on motions that have obvious rulings. The judges mind was muddled by the complexity of the law because she had a poor understanding of the spirit of the law. It looked to me like Judge Sherry memorized law but could not assimilate what she memorized.

Basically you are not going to get the DP on a woman killer if the male victim was gong around telling other girls he was a virgin at the same time he was butt fuckin the defendant.

If this trial had been held in Florida or California Jodi might have got off.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P said: You're not going to get the DP if the defendant is a nice looking woman.

So are you saying Susan Atkins & Leslie Van Houten were ugly?

If this trial had been held in Florida or California Jodi might have got off.

Agreed, but if it was held in Texas, she would be pushing up daisies in a few years.

You and I agree on some points. Yes Travis was leading a double life, but he was leading it with a conniving female who used sex to keep him on a chain.

And he sure didn't deserve to be murdered the way he was. Jodi could have just shot him several times but that wasn't enough for her. Stabbing someone is very personal, and I would imagine that cutting someone's throat is also VERY personal.

The shot to the head was just an afterthought.

Jodi Arias is a sociopath. She should never be allowed to be free again. She's dangerous.

What she did after the murder was even more heinous.

She tried to clean up the bloody crime scene, throwing towels & sheets into the washer, along with the camera (and she's supposed to be smart). She shut and locked his bedroom door so no one would discover the body. She put the dog Napoleon outside to starve. She called his cell phone and left messages to make it look like she didn't know he was dead. She drove to Utah and humped another guy. She attended his memorial and sent his grandmother flowers. She called Detective Flores just to throw him off track. She denied she was even there for days, even though the evidence showed she was. Then she changed it to "Ninjas" killed him and she escaped. She stuck to that story for 2 years. Then she changed the story to "self defense". After the first trial, that changed to "mental illness".

She has no excuse. The fact is, she killed him because he didn't want her. Period.

Oh, and BTW, Jodi's parents calling the cops because she was growing pot was a far cry from the way Travis grew up. And you know what I'm saying. So please don't compare the two...

katie8753 said...

Sheriff Joe has decided NO MORE TV interviews for Miss Arias. Jodi requested a month for sentencing, but if she thought she was going to do interviews, she's got another think coming. She will sit in her cell alone, awaiting punishment.

And when she goes to prison, which she will, she will pretty much be alone for at least 5 years, until she earns points to commingle with the general population. But every night she will be alone.

And I think that will be the best punishment of all. She can't stand herself and can't stand being alone.

MrPoirot said...

The shot to the head was not an afterthought; it the first blow. The gun jammed so she went to the knife. In her Ninja story she even describes a gun jamming.

Any parent who drops a dime on their own 13 yr old child is an asshole and is not a person the child can have faith in ever again. Jodi feared her weight lifting, iron-willed, controlling Dad after that incident. When she owned her own house she was afraid to let her parents come visit her and stay in her own home. If that isn't fear then what is?

Neither Travis nor Jodi had parents whom they trusted. That is a huge void in both their lives which may have been what drew them together at first and caused so much violence when they fought.

MrPoirot said...

Imagine Ted Bundy dating Eileen Wuornos.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, you are believing Jodi's imaginary crap.

The gun never jammed. There is NO evidence of that!

PLEASE!!!

MrPoirot said...

Katie the gun jammed after one shot because Jodi did something called limp-wristing. It is an extremely common mistake made by inexperienced shooters when they fire semi auto pistols by not holding the grip stationary while the slide goes backwards. If the slide and the grip go backwards simultaneously the fired brass cant be extracted nor can the next round be forced into the chamber.

Why would Jodi describe the gun jamming in her Ninja story unless a gun had jammed? Jodi accidentally let a tiny bit of truth leak into her Ninja story.

Why else would she stab him 28 times yet shoot him only once?

MrPoirot said...

If Travis had another neck she would have cut his throat more than just once.

katie8753 said...

Mr P, Jodi threw the gun away in the desert. Nobody ever found it.

There is no evidence it jammed other than Jodi's testimony. And Jodi can whine all day about it, but it means nothing in the end, as usual.

Jodi is a fucking liar. End of Story.

MrPoirot said...

You know the gun was tossed into the desert because Jodi said so? I thought you said Jodi was a liar?

There most certainly is evidence that the gun jammed. The shooter herself mentions a gun jamming. Why would a shooter with almost no experience shooting guns invent an imaginative scenario where a gun jams unless there had been a jam during the murder?
There was no second shot which points to a jam after the first shot. Why was the gun only fired once? Because it jammed!

katie8753 said...

According to Jodi, the gun was in Travis' closet up on a shelf, that she had to reach up and grab.

In reality, Travis never owned a gun, and if she had stepped up to reach the "imaginary gun", she would have toppled the shelves.

Truth is, the gun Jodi used was a gun she stole from her grandfather's house, and believe you me, it didn't jam. No proof of that whatsoever.

Jodi said she tossed the gun in the desert, but the fact remains the gun was never found.

Clever Jodi didn't realize that if she invented a gun that Travis owned, she would have to tell the jury where it was.

Guess what? SHE FORGOT. She said she tossed it in the desert and couldn't remember where.

Whether she tossed it in the desert, tossed it in a dumpster in town, or just fucking stuck it up her endless black hole big vagina, the gun in question was never found.

We know there was a gun. Where is it??????????????????????

Explain that Mr. P.

MrPoirot said...

The gun is not needed to know how it jammed. Limp-wristing is the most common way semiauto pistols jam. A firm grip is needed to prevent limp-wristing jams. This is why revolvers are recommended for new shooters in self defense classes.
Revolvers are not subject to limp-wristing jams because no parts move when the bullet fires.

MrPoirot said...

According to Jodi, the gun was in Travis' closet up on a shelf, that she had to reach up and grab.


There was a gun on that high shelf. This was where Jodi hid the gun she stole. She did reach up onto the top shelf and grab that gun. This was another screw up by the prosecution. However, she NEVER ran from Travis because he never chased her.

katie8753 said...

Okay your comments make no sense. You say a gun is not needed to know how it jammed.

NOT! Limp-wristing is not a legal defense.

THEN you say...

There was a gun on that high shelf. This was where Jodi hid the gun she stole.

That makes no sense. Did she GET a gun from the high shelf, or HIDE a gun? Either way, it makes no sense.


She did reach up onto the top shelf and grab that gun. (Contradicted yourself)

This was another screw up by the prosecution. However, she NEVER ran from Travis because he never chased her.


According to Jodi's testimony, that's why she ran into the closet because Travis was chasing her.

You can't have it both ways Mr. P.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P I know this case backward & forward. You won't win. Even if I go to bed, I'll start again in the morning.

So please, don't waste my time and embarrass yourself.

I know you're a smart guy. You can't be horns waggled by this case.

Surely even Jodi Arias can't turn your brain into mush.

katie8753 said...

Where is the gun???

MrPoirot said...

The gun is where the knife is.

katie8753 said...

And that means "we don't know". It's just where crazy-ass Jodi put them. So crazy that she's in a "fog" over killing Travis, BUT...not so crazy that she can't get rid of murder weapons.

katie8753 said...

OK I'm gonna watch some TV and get to bed.

Peace out!!

MrPoirot said...

Travis was in the shower when Jodi quietly got the gun from atop that shelf where she hid it.
She shot him in the shower during his shower. It is very likely she did drop the camera however, she dropped it on purpose to piss him off before she shot him. I doubt they ever had an argument at all.

katie8753 said...

She probably got the gun from her purse or her backpack or where ever the hell she hid it in when she first took off for AZ.

I'm sure they didn't argue either. He didn't get mad when she wrecked his BMW but he was in a murderous rage about the camera?? Get outta here!

I love the part of her story where she gets "body slammed". HA HA HA HA. She knows how to tell some whoppers!

katie8753 said...

My favorite part of the police interrogation was when Det. Flores showed Jodi the pics retreived off the camera that were date stamped the day of Travis' murder and she said:

"Well....that looks like me."

HA HA HA HA.

MrPoirot said...

She got caught red handed too many times due to her lack of smarts. She suffered many issues from dropping out of high school. She understood film cameras but did not know a digital camera stores images on the postage stamp sized SG mem cards dspite the fact that she had used digital cams many time. Why no tv reporter never asked her why she didn't remove the SG card.

Despite the elaborate plan to avoid arrest she was immediately IDd as the killer by everyone who was present when they found Travis. Everyone suspected her even her parents.
Gus Searcy was the only person who showed any empathy for Jodi. Everyone else used her. Gus had not known her long enough to help her though.
She had left school and ran away from her family and probably would have made a life for herself had she not have met Travis. Jodi did not like being used or betrayed and Travis was definitely a user who betrayed the trust of every girl he knew.

Much was made of the book Travis wrote. That had to be a real scholarly tome with a high school grad as author and high school drop out as editor. Travis and Jodi tried hard to self educate themselves but there was too much those two missed out on as children which also led to their lack of education and scial acumen. They both lived life like bulls in a china shop because they simply didn't know any better.

MrPoirot said...

Travis made sales videos and created an alter ego as one of the characters in his videos. This alter ego character he created was an idiot and a jerk that he used to show how not to do things. Travis played this part himself. No actor was needed.

katie8753 said...

And Jodi made home videos of her cunt. Maybe that would attract customers, or maybe not...

katie8753 said...

I would guess, maybe not...

louis365 said...

It might get her some...

katie8753 said...

Could be Louis! Shagadelic:)