Friday, March 6, 2015

Night 2 - The Labianca's

Well, let's get to the 2nd night of murder.

There is no one on this planet, other than Manson (I'm talking about TLB enthusiasts, people who come out of the woodwork to write books,  or even the killers) who knows why the LaBiancas were chosen to be slaughtered. 
We can theorize, guess or just make stuff up.  But none of us really knows why he chose them.

And choose them he did.

Now I won't waste everyone's time in going into Charlie's aimless driving that went on for hours, then Charlie suddenly knowing exactly where he was going, according to the assailants in the car, which was around 2:00am, which is when the LaBiancas finally got home.

Nor will I go into the sordidity of the LaBianca's history.  We all know that Leno was a gambler, he skimmed money, and he was deeply in debt.  He bought racehorses that no one seemed to know about.  

We also know that Rosemary was a "bi", had lots of affairs and fought a lot with her daughter.  But does this make them targets for murder?

We know that The LaBiancas were living in and making payments on Leno's ancestral home, and they were also making payments on a trailer-mounted motor boat, which he stored at his mother's house.  I emphasize "making payments" because that indicates to me that they didn't have a lot of capital, only credit.

There are those who believe that Rosemary had $2,000,000, due to the fact that she was a drug dealer.  This was reported in the paper I believe.  This is where I kinda fade out.  There is no proof anywhere, in police reports or witness statements that Rosemary was a drug dealer.  Whether or not she had $2,000,000 I have no idea.  I'd love to see their 1968 tax returns.

She did, after all, have 2 jobs:  she co-owned a dress shop and she was a Real Estate agent.  I can't imagine a drug dealer working 2 jobs.

Some people like to say that because Tex sold wigs, that he knew Rosemary and Jay.  

But Rosemary and Jay didn't sell wigs that I know of.  It's kinda like saying since they all chewed Doublemint gum they had to have known each other.

But that's just me....

Anyway, we not only have the question of why did Charlie choose them, but who tied Leno up, was Rosemary tied up, why didn't the dogs bark, how did Charlie get in, etc?

And, like the Cielo Drive murders, there are lots of unanswered questions.  Was there a little black book, and if so, what happened to it.  Did someone come back after the murders and "move things", much like Cielo Drive?  And if so, who?

More questions:  Why did Suzanne LaBerge try to get Tex out of prison?  How did Charlie know when the LaBiancas got home?  

And the question that really bothers me is this:  why did he choose Leslie Van Houten?  Tex & Pat are gimmes.  He knew they were killing machines.  But why Leslie?  Is it because she looked excited to go?  Or is it because she liked Bobby better?  I would think that Charlie, being a con man for years, would be able to read people.  Heck, he chose Leslie over Susan, whom he knew was not adverse to killing...she was there at Hinman's killing and at Cielo Drive.

Okay....let's discuss!


louis365 said...

Why Lulu?

I think because she was showing sign s that she was eager to go. She had "missed out" the first night, so the second night, she was talking/acting around Chuck in a way that showed him she was eager to please.

CarolMR said...

Great post, Katie. I have no clue why Charlie chose the LaBiancas, but I believe they were definitely chosen and not random victims. BTW, love the picture of Rosemary and Leno that you posted. It is rarely shown anywhere.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Louis and Carol!

Louis, you would think that Charlie picked LuLu because of her looks, but knowing Charlie was a con man, I think there were other avenues.

It may be as you say, but could there be another reason? Maybe because she never really fit in to the family, or maybe because she was a fan of another that he wanted to squash and he wanted her to get her hands dirty?

I personally don't believe that Charlie ever told Bobby to kill Gary. Bobby can carry on all he wants, make up stories and change his reasons, but I don't believe that Charlie ever told him that. I truly believe that Charlie thought Gary had money, and he wanted Bobby to get it. But Gary didn't have any money. And I think Bobby took it too far.

Let me illiterate. I don't believe that Charlie told Bobby to kill Gary at that point. At that point, I don't think that Charlie told anyone to kill anyone.

But it all changed on August 8th.

That's my personal opinion. It's not a fact.

Carol, I like that picture too. It's sweet.

katie8753 said...

I LOVE that Harold True interview. I'll put a few snippets from it now. If y'all would like me to transcribe the whole tape I will. But not tonight.

Harold True RULES!!!!!! Thanks Harold!

katie8753 said...

Snippets of Harold True's interview:

"What do you want? Is there any money in for me?"

"I don’t think so."

"Ah, then forget it."

"All them people belong in the nuthouse."

"What’s the possibility of Rosemary LaBianca’s daughter knowing them too?"

"Zero. Because nobody lived next door, it was an empty house.
Yeah but she lived in the area all her life.

Them fucking fruitcakes couldn’t have poured piss out of their boots with the bottom written on it."

"She did not know Tex Watson, Tex Watson came from Texas, he landed on that ranch, them girls snatched him and he didn’t know where the fuck I lived."

"They was crazy! You can’t ascribe reason to crazy people! Tex Watson was a Mama’s boy! You’re reading shit into it."

"Kernwinkle she carries her brains in a lunch box. I’m no idiot. I’ve got a college degree and I know a few little fucking things about life and law and I know people when they’re nuts!"

"Have you ever had a party of 300 people and remembered everyone there."

"I’ve been bothered all my life by this bullshit. And I’ve had it it to my neck. Everybody makes money on this.

katie8753 said...

I hear ya Harold! And I agree completely! :)

starship said...

I don't believe that anyone thinks Rosemary LaBianca had two million dollars becuase she was a drug dealer. Drug dealers don't file taxes on their illegally gained money so it wouldn't be on record. The $2million is indeed on record, such as it is, through just one newspaper story about her assets amounting as such from a court hearing. That's it, not a single shred of evidence exists that this was ever true then, or ever true later, or ever true now. Hence my theory that a clerical error is responsible for the creation of the $2million myth.

MrPoirot said...

Rosemary had Greenbax stamps in her wallet which means she was pinching pennies to get by just like many other hard working Americans. Charlie killed the Labiancas because their home met his guidelines for isolation. No sense in killing someone and being heard and immediately arrested.
Were it not for scumbag Harold True and his drug parties he gave prior to the Labiancas living on Waverly the Labiancas would still be alive today. It was renter Harold True who ran down the Los Feliz neighborhood that turned Charlie onto the house on Waverly.

starship said...

My friend, Hercule,

The LaBianca's house on Waverly is the house that Leno was born in. Leno's mother and father lived there, and his mother moved into an apt behind the garage for a while when Leno and Rosemary were living there. Leno certainly had a connection to it the whole while Harold True lived next door.

MrPoirot said...

Starship Charlie's knowledge of the Waverly house is from a period when the Labs were not living there. Harold True was giving parties with a bunch of bad druggies during the time prior to Leno living there. Without True you have no murder on Waverly. Leno had no idea what had been partying next door to his Waverly home before he got there.

Just like Polanski had no idea Melcher had been friends with Charlie prior to him renting Cielo.

The murders at Cielo and Waverly were due to things that went on prior the the victims arrival as residents.

When people buy or rent homes they look at who lives next door now. No matter who lived at Cielo and Waverly in Aug 69 they were going to end up murder victims.

revatron said...

I believe the area was chosen because Manson remembered it, and that the Labianca's were strangers to the family.
Sometimes I think Manson was going to True's old house, but when Linda spoke up he changed his mind. Not that Linda had any say in the family, but Charlie needed everyone onboard.
Or maybe he was going to True's but then saw that the big house next door was now occupied?

The dogs not barking gives me the creeps. You see old horror movies where the evil people are one with the animals, reminds me of that.

Poirot, Harold True isn't to blame…I blame Buck, the maker of the knives. It's all his fault.

starship said...

A couple of things: even if the Waverly Drive house was unoccupied for a time, the LaBiancas still owned it and were careful to at least be taking custodial care of it. It was their ancestral home.

And Leno was certainly aware of the parties next door and the changing nature of the neighborhood as he wrote and complained about it in letters to his ex wife and children which were preserved and published in Alice LaBianca's book.

katie8753 said...

OK thanks Starship, Revatron & Mr. P.

I don't think Harold True had anything to do with this. As Starship pointed out, 3301 Waverly was vacant when he lived there. Harold moved out in September of 1968, and Leno & Rosemary moved in the 3301 Waverly Drive home in November of 1968.

Never did the twain meet.

However, I feel that 3301 Waverly Drive was Charlie's destination the whole time. Why? Well, it seems strange to me that Leno & Rosemary finally arrived home around 2am and suddenly Charlie drove there.

There are only 2 people on this planet who would know when The Labiancas got home: the newspaper guy and Suzanne LaBerge.

Somebody tipped Charlie off, and I'll give you one guess.

How she did it, I don't know. But more importantly, WHY she did it, I don't know.

Rosemary LaBianca WAS NOT a drug dealer. That is an alternate relatity that one of those "book writers" made up.

Let's focus instead on WHY Charlie would zoom in on the LaBiancas. Does Suzanne have something to do with it?

katie8753 said...

And Mr. P, you're right, Rosemary was pasting green stamps into a book like a bohemian. Doesn't sound like she could buy anything new and fancy with her ill-gotten gains. Sounds more like she was choosing certain items like a new pedal-powered trash can out of a green stamp book.....

katie8753 said...

The LaBiancas used to live at Walt Disney's old house. They had to move because they couldn't afford it. Some say it had a lot of repairs to be done, but some say the house payment and household expenses were just too high.

I personally think that "Mama LaBianca" was helping them, but decided to quit, or was "ordered" to quit, and they had to sell.

That's when they bought the 3301 Waverly House.

katie8753 said...

Charles Manson chose the Labiancas to kill that night. Not because Harold True lived next door, because he hadn't lived next door for months.

There was another reason. But WHY?

MrPoirot said...

Harold True was an undesirable who was a heavy drug user. True's drug buddies kaufman and Manson were ex cons.
In every Harold True interview he always mentions that he is a college grad as if that covers up for his known habit of associating with scum from Hell. True has said in interviews that he had been hounded for his associations that ended up getting neighbors murdered in their own homes. Even pics from that time True is a very shady, druggie looking character. He does not at all look like a grad student type nor does he talk like a grad student. True talks like a thug. True was more at home with manson types than he was with scholarly types. True gravitated towards scum and scum was attracted to him. This is what led to murder coming to where True crashed. Charlie learned about the Waverly house from True.

revatron said...

Your beef with Harold True sounds very personal. What ever he did to you I'm sure he's sorry.

Katie, I know you favor the theory that Suzanne tipped Charlie off, but Charlie made the phone call.

Someone had to die that night. If the Labianca's had arrived home later then the house would have been skipped…in my opinion.

MrPoirot said...

Rev what is it about reality that you feel the need to avoid? Without Harold True moving onto Waverly street and giving drug parties there is no way Charlie would have known the Labianca house ever existed.
Why do you thing Bug subpeonaed True? He subpeonaed True to show Charlie had been at his parties next door to the murder house. This proved Charlie had prior knowledge of the house.

revatron said...

Of course Manson knew the neighborhood because of his association with True.
But does True deserve blame for murders that occurred next door to a house he used to live in? Is True a scumbag for throwing parties? I say no.
Is True responsible for running down the entire Los Feliz neighborhood as you say?? Absolutely not. That's hogwash.

katie8753 said...

Revatron, I know that theory about Suzanne is "out there" but how else could Charlie have honed in on exactly when the Labiancas got home? It's a BIG coincidence. Then she tried to get Tex out of prison. Strange days.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P said: True has said in interviews that he had been hounded for his associations that ended up getting neighbors murdered in their own homes.

What neighbors? And the LaBiancas don't count. They weren't living there when True was.

Without Harold True moving onto Waverly street and giving drug parties there is no way Charlie would have known the Labianca house ever existed.

Hello, Charlie didn't even know they existed when he went to Harold's house because they weren't there.

And Charlie went to lots of parties. Why didn't he pick one of those "next doors"?

revatron said...

Katie, you of all people should know, "There are no such things as Small coincidences and BIG coincidences." :)

If Manson knew exactly when to call Suzanne, then what is the need to call Suzanne?

Anonymous said...

"knew the area" and "isolation" aren't exactly good reasons. They've robbed other homes. Did they "pick" those houses because they knew the area? If isolation is used as a reason, it contradicts the stories of Manson attempting to kill somebody at a traffic light on a Saturday night.

Reasons WHY, theoretically: Had the cops or anyone came poking around as Charlie walked up the drive way and creeped around, the excuse he was going to see his friend Harold could have been used. This theory might be able to go out the window, if he was armed.

Also, tax returns don't exactly disprove drug sales. Drug money is often laundered and there are different levels of dealing. Not everyone who deals in drugs lives like Tony Montana. There is a lot of drug dealing going on in every ghetto and projects and look at those living conditions.

MrPoirot said...

Pam Smart will soon be the only one left in prison for murdering her newly wed hubby using her students as trigger men. The kids have all earned parole as of today.
Pam will be the last in prison with no parole option in her sentence. She won't be happy about this release at all. Only Pam will be left serving time. Bad things happen when Pam isn't happy.

She could have gotten a divorce for $180 but chose instead to create a bizarre plan where by she boinks her student and pretends she loves the kid and after his hormones kick in she tells him he has to kill her husband if he wants to keep boinking her. Works every time..

This was one of my favorite murders. She claims she had nothing to do with ordering the murders. No she isn't a tree hugger but she was a big Van Halen fan which she had personalized on her licence plate. She and her toy boy's favorite VH song was "Hot For Teacher".
Pam cold have written for TV. Her murder plot was almost as good as Helter Skelter. Pity she's just gonna rot in prison. Wow did this chick have a nice ass.

katie8753 said...

Revatron said: Katie, you of all people should know, "There are no such things as Small coincidences and BIG coincidences." :)

Revatron, LOL. There are only co-IN-ci-dences!!

katie8753 said...

Underworld Pope said: Reasons WHY, theoretically: Had the cops or anyone came poking around as Charlie walked up the drive way and creeped around, the excuse he was going to see his friend Harold could have been used. This theory might be able to go out the window, if he was armed.

But Jimmy, that doesn't answer WHY the LaBiancas??? Why did Charlie target the LaBiancas?

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, I guess Pam Smart wasn't that "Smart".

It's funny how the "ringleader" of this crime is the only one not getting out.

Funny how the "ringleader" of TLB has the possibility of parole, but just pooh poohs it every year.

CarolMR said...

FYI, Jay Sebring will appear in an episode of "The Virginian" called The Strange Quest of Claire Bingham. Jay plays a barber. This episode was originally shown in 1967. The re-run will be on tomorrow (Friday) at 7:30 a.m. (mountain time) on INSP.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Carol!!

MrPoirot said...

Pam Smart was actually a smart gal. Very good at school I mean. She was just a tad murderous. Though never covered in books or movies I think she had a bad temper. She even tried to have a witness against her killed. This chick had a nice ass but she'd have you killed in a heartbeat.
All her friends except her hubby were much younger than her. She never matured socially and her mother is a cold fish. Pam may have been a sociopath but nobody noticed because they were always looking at her ass.
She truly is angry that now only she is in prison for the hubby's murder. I don't get any impression she cared about her hubby at all. She tries to mention the dead hubby because she knows an innocent woman would be sad over the hubby's murder and she wants to look innocent but she just can't pull it off. She had no emotional attachment to her hubby but then I don't think she had any emotions about anybody in her life. She may have been a pure sociopath. She had it very bad. If she got out she'd kill again no doubt. But wow she had a nice ass. They should let her go free and just tell everybody to look out..

Doc Sierra said...

I drove through the Waverly Drive neighborhood back in 1983, the same day I visited 105000 Cielo Drive. I can assure you that the Waverly Drive neighborhood was by no stretch of the imagination "run down" at that time. It seemed like a nice place to reside, especially with Griffith Park nearby.....

Doc Sierra said...

The main reason that I'm glad that the Pamela Smart case is in the past is that I got really tired of looking at high school stoners with mullet hair cuts.....

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, it's a good thing she had a nice ass, because she has a BOW WOW face. YUCCCHH.

Put a leash on that turd.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Doc. I get the feeling that Waverly Drive was a nice, quiet, well groomed neighborhood.

I can't imagine why anyone in that neighborhood would rent a house to 3 young people in the 60's who would have loud drug-induced parties that would lure people as creepy as Charles Manson, et al, as well as hippy-dippy Linda Kasabian and her hubby, but what do I know???

MrPoirot said...


CarolMR said...

I watched "The Virginian" this morning. Jay was in the first scene only. He played a barber (named Jay!) and he was cutting James Drury's (the Virginian) hair. From what I saw of the rapport between the two, I'll bet Jay cut Drury's hair in real life, too.

CarolMR said...

I watched "The Virginian" this morning. Jay was in the first scene only. He played a barber (named Jay!) and he was cutting James Drury's (the Virginian) hair. From what I saw of the rapport between the two, I'll bet Jay cut Drury's hair in real life, too.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Carol!! A barber named Jay!! Who-da thunk it! LOL.

CarolMR said...

Katie, I thought it was adorable that the show kept Jay's name for his character. He looked so dreamy, too, except for the fake mustache he had to wear!

katie8753 said...

Hey Carol, check your e-mail please! :)

starship said...

Revatron and Katie:

Please remember that the phone call is just a theory...