California Residents... Clear Your Calendars!
Here's Your Chance to Meet Vincent Bugliosi! LOL
That's Right... You Heard It From Lynyrd First. : )
Vincent Bugliosi, will be at the Glendale Public Library... 222 East Harvard Street, Glendale, CA 91205... on Wednesday, July 27, at 7 pm... in the Central Library Auditorium, to discuss his new book, "Divinity of Doubt".
This free lecture is sponsored by the Friends of the Glendale Public Library. Information: (818) 548-2042.
Glendale Public Library
222 East Harvard Street
Glendale, CA 91205
Full Story here: http://www.ci.glendale.ca.us/library/AuthorEvent_VincentBugliosi_072711.asp
Information Submitted By Lynn!!! Thanks Lynn!!!
Thanks a million Lynn!
Great "field reporting"!!! LOL
Seriously folks... if I lived within a couple hours of the library, I'd definitely drive out, have a coffee, and meet Bug.
What the heck?!
We've been studying this case for years.
Love him, or hate him... it makes sense to me... it's free, and open to the public... so why not?!
Marliese, Lynn and Kimchi... you're our "agents in Hollywood"!
Whaddya say?! LOLOL
Bring back a couple photos, and signatures? LOL
Lynn... I just updated your total on the "hall of fame" list. LOL
Just as George Jefferson... you're "a-movin' on up"! LOLOL
>>>>Seriously folks... if I lived within a couple hours of the library, I'd definitely drive out, have a coffee, and meet Bug.<<<<
Would you bring him some cake and some cookies too? or maybe a little french pastry or some exotic cheese snacks?
Seriously Skynyrd ...... You're treating this creep like he's some kind of celebrity when he's not. Don't start going Geraldo on us. People RESPECT HONESTY.
Call Bugliosi for what he is and nothing more. Peddling another book too, just like that A-hole John Waters.
For once i wish that POS was coming to MY town because he won't be playing softball with me. He's gonna get Greg Maddux and I'd give him the high hard stuff.
If somebody does go to Glendale Ca to see this traveling book salesman, why doesn't somebody hit him hard with a question that he might actually have to struggle to answer. I'll guarantee you that he'll say that he doesn't want to talk about that because it's not related to his new book.
Ask him why he never talks about Salndar Nader.
Ask him why he's with Linda Kasabian every time that she makes an appearance somewhere to discuss her role in what took place.
Ask him what it's like to hit a woman in anger. I wouldn't know that because i've NEVER done that.
Ask him what he did with all of the money that he made off of Charles Manson.
Ask him if he feels guilty at all about referring to Charles Manson as the most notorious mass murderer in American history when Charlie never actually killed anyone to the best of my knowledge.
Ask him if he saw the picture of Star and Charlie where Charlie was smiling like a drinking man on St Patty's day.
Ask Vince why he can't get a woman like Star, but Manson can.
Ask Vince why he got old, tired and gray looking while Charlie has gotten BETTER with age.
Then, as you're leaving, tell Vince that people will remember the name Charles Manson long after the name of Vincent Bugliosi is long since forgotten.
Skynyrd ..... Your blog was great, for a while, but now you're getting tabloid and you're taking on more of a Geraldo personna.
Don't do that .... Don't pander .... Just Report and stay neutral.
Be your own "Roddy Piper" and rule your own "Piper's Pit" with as if it were a place of worship on Sunday.
If people don't like what you have to say F*CK'EM.
Mortin Downey would never pander to a guy like Vincent Bugliosi and neither should you.
Don't do that or you might as well bury this blog in the HTLB Graveyard.
Vincent Bugliosi is a LIAR and is covering up what really happened. All he cares about is protecting his legacy and he will fight to the end to defend it.
Back to retirement for me.
I would like to go hear what the man has to say...
I think people give bugs to much credit....
I dont think he was anything other than a good lawyer from the Midwest with human flaws like all the rest of us...
I think he realized this was going to be one of the biggest most sensational trials ever- and he also had to realize that the defendants weren't going to be much of a problem, and would act right into the crazy roles that the media has built them into.
He probably realized early on this would me a career maker, and cash cow- and like most would do- he rode it as long as he could for all it was worth...
we have argued this before- but i think almost any lawyer would have won that case...
lets not give Bugs too much credit ...
But it would be interesting to hear him for a few minutes if he is talking subjects that interest me...
like this one does...
back into semi retirement
Jimmy...lighten up. Nobody is worshipping Bugliosi.
Sometimes it's fun to have a little fun with it. :)
>>>St. said: we have argued this before- but i think almost any lawyer would have won that case...>>>
I have to disagree with you St. I think that the fact that he was able to get convictions on all of them, INCLUDING Charlie, was just short of a miracle.
He had no physical evidence connecting Charlie to murder. It was only testimony from a hippy chick who could easily have been considered unreliable.
Like we've said before, he worked hard on that trial, and if he made money off of it later...who cares??
although legally there was not much evidence against Charlie by today's standards...
There was a desire( need) for the monsters to be caught and put away by the entire area when these crimes occurred...
people were scared- and they needed to get it under control. They were desperate to find the ' monsters" responsible...
What kind of people could do something like that???
Well- when they come in wearing shaved heads and X's carved into there heads, and dance and sing around the court room... with there followers all outside wearing knives around there wastes...
How hard is it for a lawyer ( any lawyer)- back in THOSE times to point a finger across the room and say....
" Those are the type of people who could do something like this"
ohhh and by the way- a few of them admitted it....
lol- I think I could have won that trial...
I definatley would have ate the chili cheese dog first though-
we still will disagree lol
but I do think it would be interesting to listen to Bugs for a bit...
He certainly has credentials to back him up as an attorney regardless of his personal life- and this one case...
Hmmmmm......chili cheese dog. That reminds me....I'm hungry! LOL.
If LS is Geraldo then I'm Bertice Berry - haha.
Katie - I think you're spot on. I've always thought that the convictions, particularly Manson's, can be traced to a subpar defense unable to shake off that "crazy factor" their clients projected to the public.
Imagine the outcome if they had Casey Anthony's lawyers (or jurors)!
Should we organize a carpool to Glendale? Can you make a detour into Canada and pick me up?
>>>Imagine the outcome if they had Casey Anthony's lawyers (or jurors)!>>>
If Charlie only had the jurors on the Anthony trial. He'd probably be living in a villa in the south of France by now. HA HA.
Hey Jim! LOL
Great to see you, regardless of the circumstances.
You're always good for 100 posts! LOL
With all due respect Jim... you're over-reacting a bit.
Like him, or hate him... Bugliosi is a huge part of this case.
He was actually AT the entire trial, which is more than any of us can say... and, moreover... he's part of history.
You can liken Bug to a criminal (if you want)... that's your prerogative... it really doesn't matter to me (I'm not Bug's mother)... but like it or not, the man IS part of American history, and always will be.
For that reason, I'd like to see the guy in person, if I had the chance... just as, I'd like to see Manson in person as well... again, given the chance.
Jim... this public appearance of Bugliosi is definitely current news, related to this case.
That's why, I'm sharing that news with my readers.
This blog is about the HTLB case(s)... and, just because you personally, would not want to attend Bug's public appearance... that doesn't mean others might not want to.
I really cater to no one.
I've not given my opinion either way, regarding Bugliosi from my personal perspective.
Folks (including you), have a right to attend, or not attend this event.
Folks (including you) also have a right, to view Bugliosi as they please, and ask him whatever questions they may have, face to face... (if they're able to), while they are there.
Two sentences of my thread may come across as "Tabloid"... but, if you notice there's an "LOL", AND a ": )"... after those sentences!
"Laughing out loud", and "Smiley face", should indicate to you Jim... that, I'm talking "tongue in cheek", as I often do.
Jim... I joke a LOT... you should know that.
Bottom line Jim... there's nothing in my post, which should offend anyone.
Bugliosi is making a public appearance, in an area, where many bloggers of this subject have access.
It's current news.
Nothing more... nothing less.
I re-examined my thread.
It's just information listed there.
The only potion, which steps outside the bounds of "information sharing"... is the 3-sentence heading in yellow print... which is funny... but, it's meant to be funny.
If those three sentences offend anyone, I apologize.
Nobody is worshipping Bugliosi, but it sounds like somebody is worshipping Charlie. Just using the word "worship" is a telling thing, as if we're talking about something other than simple human beings. Just men, with shit that stinks like everyone else's does. It's true Charlie will be remembered, but for what? Who aspires to be him? I hope the answer is "nobody". Personally, I find Charlie and the others interesting the same way an animal biologist finds animal shit to be interesting. Waste products can tell you a lot about a system or animal; people like Charlie and his "kids" can tell us a lot about society. The man himself has said this very thing; He and the kids he found had been "thrown away", and they are a product of our society. No denying that. But finding someone interesting is not the same as worship.
As for bugliosi and the carping about selling books and making money; that seems like "sour grapes" to me. Maybe some people, when presented with a chance to make their fortune, would refuse the opportunity in order to hold on to some kind of "credibility". I am not one of those people. I would make my money, and take credit for my performance as a professional. Bugliosi was assigned a case to prosecute, and he did so successfully against the odds. The case was, and remains, a fascination to the media and the public - and he has capitalized on that to the fullest. Does it break your heart that he's a media whore, and uses the spotlight to project his opinions? Grow up. Lawyers are what they are, and by all accounts I've seen, bug is no different than most lawyers.
Any lawyer who did what he did would be offered the same attention, but only a true pimp could hustle it into money and fame and access to media on his own terms. Charlie and Bugliosi are two of a kind, in that sense. Only, Charlie never could play his cards right. He was a fool, and he doesn't get credit for his notoriety because it was n o t by design. He portrays himself as a victim of circumstance, and he is. The fact that he "looks good" is another accident - of genetics. He appears to have kept his hair, and that crazy charisma; he's aged well. I guess. Never forget, he thrives because he is provided food and shelter and medical care, grooming and clothing by the state. On his own, out of jail, he ate out of dumpsters, and was filthy and repugnant.
As for "getting a girl like star", all i can say is: y i k e s! I mean, I don't know, i guess some guys really want a crazy chick. I don't mean wild and fun, i mean i'll-stab-you-if-you-cross-me kind of crazy. And no, i don't know Star; i just assume trying to hang out with charlie = crazy. That does seem to be his type.
Thanks for the post, Lynyrd. If i was in Cali, i'd go. Sort of like seeing the Bonnie and Clyde car, or Dillinger's schlong in a jar at the Smithsonian (ha ha). I think Bugliosi is an artifact worth seeing in person, as long as it's free. Charlie too, if you didn't have to go to a prison to do it.
Lynyrd, I don't see any portion of your thread at all that would or should be considered offensive to anyone.
I think this blog was/is/always will be GREAT!!! LOL.
Hi 8/9 Baby!
>>>As for "getting a girl like star", all i can say is: y i k e s! I mean, I don't know, i guess some guys really want a crazy chick. I don't mean wild and fun, i mean i'll-stab-you-if-you-cross-me kind of crazy. And no, i don't know Star; i just assume trying to hang out with charlie = crazy. That does seem to be his type.>>>
Boy isn't that the truth. I'm not sure having a chick like Star (is that the first name or last name???) hanging off your arm would deemed a "good thing" unless you're a dirty old man who likes "sweet young thangs". HA HA.
>>>Thanks for the post, Lynyrd. If i was in Cali, i'd go. Sort of like seeing the Bonnie and Clyde car, or Dillinger's schlong in a jar at the Smithsonian (ha ha).>>>
Dillinger's schlong in a jar. Hoo hoo. Now THAT I think I'll miss. HA HA.
Oooppss.. sorry Lynn. Forgot to thank you for the thread.
Hey if you do go there, take some pics for us, okay?
Sorry... the only "portion". LOL
>>>Lynyrd said: Sorry... the only "portion". LOL
Oh....I thought you might be a witch doctor. HA HA HA.
Okay...is it politically correct to say witch doctor?
Should I use the term "conjurer physician". LOLOL.
Holy shit katie, that cracked me up!
I think the term is "wiccan caregiver" LOL
Don't want somebody getting pissed and puttin a spell on you! :)
8/9 Baby...that's a scream!!!
>>>I think the term is "wiccan caregiver" LOL
Don't want somebody getting pissed and puttin a spell on you! :)>>>
Nope, don't want any voodoo dolls popping up looking like me. LOL.
I was gonna say "Necromancer Sawbones" but didn't want to confuse anyone. HA HA.
He's appeared at several places in California...Santa Monica, Pasadena, San Francisco, a book signing at Book Soup on Sunset in Hollywood, on the radio etc so...maybe the book tour will come to a city or call in radio show near you. That might be an option for interested parties on the east coast. Or maybe not, since he's based in LA.
But i'd think anyone that approached him off topic in an aggressive manner would be swiftly escorted out by security...but that's not to say there aren't questions worthy of answers from this man, just that this wouldn't be an appropriate forum for them. But that's just my opinion. :)
Thanks for the thread, Lynn. If you go, i'd love to hear all about it. I'm not really interested in the subject of his latest book, but i'd be curious what you thought of his manner and presence etc. Thanks again. :)
I wish i had the tact of Katie & St. I dont, so. <<<<
You do just fine, Bobby. Your posts are down to earth and real.
Thanks Marliese. I hadn't thought about that. I'll check and see if he'll be in my area sometime.
I'd love to ask him a million questions about the Manson trial, but I'm sure he won't want to answer those type questions.
I'm not interested in the book he's selling either.
>>>Bobby said: I wish i had the tact of Katie & St. I dont, so.>>>
Tact???? Thanks Bobby. You're the first one to accuse me of having any tact. HA HA HA!!
I'll second what Marliese said!
You make excellent posts. The kind that sometimes stop me in my tracks to re-think my position. LOL.
8/9 Baby said:
>>>>"finding someone interesting is not the same as worship".<<<<
8/9 Baby said:
>>>>"If i was in Cali, i'd go. Sort of like seeing the Bonnie and Clyde car, or Dillinger's schlong in a jar at the Smithsonian (ha ha). I think Bugliosi is an artifact worth seeing in person, as long as it's free".<<<<
Finding a subject, or a person (in this case both)interesting... is NOT the same as worship.
I went to the Smithsonian years ago, and had a great time.
I saw a bust of PT Barnum, every moth in the world under glass, a replica of the "Wright Brother's" first plane, paintings, sculpture, life-size dinosaur models... even Archie Bunker's chair! LOL
People like to see historical stuff... period.
I really don't see what all the hulla-baloo is about.
I have no interest in Bugliosi's current book... but, as I said... if he came to town... I'd travel out to experience seeing/hearing him.
And yes... I'd buy myself a coffee for the ride.
I don't think being interested enough to travel out one evening to see Bugliosi before he croaks, makes me a worshipper... and, it certainly doesn't mean, I'm making him into a celebrity.
And yes... I agree with Marliese... that anyone attending a public library, with the mindset of grilling the man regarding TLB, would likely be escorted away, by the guys in white coats... if they attempted that non-sense. LOL
Thing is... beyond respect for the victims... I have no particular emotional attachment to anyone involved with this case.
That goes for Bugliosi, Manson, or any of the others.
For that reason, folks' opinions regarding Bugliosi, Manson (or the others), slide off me, like water off a duck's ass.
Should I really care, if someone likes, or dislikes Bugliosi, or Manson???
I've got better ways, to invest my personal time.
Sure, I have my thoughts/opinions on all the "players", as we all do... and, I'll give my opinion when it's appropriate... but, heck... I'm not going to lose sleep, defending any of these people, one way, or the other.
I have blood relatves, which need (and deserve) my time, much more-so, than these characters.
You gotta be a little bit suspicious of the health (mental health), of anyone, who's overly invested in any of these folks.
That's my two cents.
Bug's gonna be at a freakin' library.
Can we get over it?! LOL
Jeepers... some blog dynamics, I'll just never understand.
Sorry 8/9 Baby.
That wasn't all directed at you.
I'm finally on a computer, with enough time, to address this whole discussion.
I was just "thinking aloud".
Bobby, Jimmy is a/k/a JimNY. Maybe you've heard of him.
And he's NOT Mr. P. LOL.
BTW, where is Mr. P.?
Your last post was great.
Actually... all your posts are great.
I'm sorry things got a bit de-railed.
I'm very excited at the prospect, that you may be attending this library appearance.
Please keep us updated.
We're all very much interested!
And as Katie said... if photos are possible... all the better!!!
They say "a picture's worth 1000 words"! LOL
Thanks so much Lynn.
You're one of the coolest, most generous, bloggers out there, in "blogland'!!!
I know Jim kinda rained on your parade a little bit, but don't sweat it.
We all love you!!... and... well... that's kinda what Jim does. LOLOL
>>>Lynn said: I think the discussion will be interesting...I have been exposed to a variety of cults/religion and two of my dear friends are atheists.>>>
Wow! The discussion should be VERY interesting. LOL.
Lynn...I'm curious...did you used to embrace "hippiedom"? You seem to be familiar with all aspects of different cultures.
Jim leaves... and you immediately ask for Mr. P ???!!! Ahahahaha
Yeah... that's what we need, right now... Mr. P .
The undisputed "King Of Controversy"!! LOLOL
>>>Jimmy said: Ask Vince why he got old, tired and gray looking while Charlie has gotten BETTER with age.>>>
I think Charlie looks like shit. In fact, I think he always did. We all saw that little goon in the buckskin outfit.
It doesn't matter if Charlie is hairless or hairfull. He's still ugly.
I wonder what he looks like with his shirt off? Don't think I've seen that, nor do I want to.
That's one thing I really love....a big, hairy chest on a man. Anything less is a big disappointment. HA HA.
>>>Lynyrd said: Jeepers Katie!
Jim leaves... and you immediately ask for Mr. P ???!!! Ahahahaha>>>
HEY....the more the merrier I always say. LOL!
I'd love to talk to bugliosi he must be a great lawyer to convict manson with the little evidence he had.
his jfk book a few years back was full of holes you could drive a truck through but his o.j. book
'outrage' was great.
he would have nailed the juice.
i'd like to know how he'd have prosecuted casey anthony.
i'm sure hes got opinions on that!
i'd ask him if he has any doubts about mansons motive after all these years....but i'm pretty sure
we know the answer to that one!
>>>Matt said: he would have nailed the juice.
i'd like to know how he'd have prosecuted casey anthony.
i'm sure hes got opinions on that!>>>
I'd love to hear his opinions on the Anthony case. Now they're all just second guessing what they could have done better.
I'm sure that Bugliosi could have done a much better job on the OJ trial AND the Anthony trial.
Kalo Kaelin. Remember that guy???
He survived the OJ trial, as arduous as it was and is living well in Las Vegas (whatever that means LOL).
"Sorry 8/9 Baby.
That wasn't all directed at you.
I'm finally on a computer, with enough time, to address this whole discussion.
I was just "thinking aloud". "
Nothin but love, L/S, no worries.
But if you do step out of line, i w i l l give you a whoopin! :)
What is it?
"Secret Sexy Agent Lara" or something? LOL
Lana Kane, she'll ease your pain.
(You know, like the stuff for burns? Lanacaine, or whatever?)
Oh no, it ruins the joke when you explain it, right?
No... it's good you explained it. LOLOL
Lana... I said Lara.
Oh well... I was off by only one letter... not bad for just reading the name once, a couple threads back. : )
BTW... Hello to Saint, Marliese, Stella and MattP!!
I generally try to say hello, or at least, acknowledge everyone's comments in some capacity, but, it's been a busy day.
>>>>"back into semi retirement"<<<<
Saint, you're still the King of the one-liners! hahaha
With all due respect Jim... you're over-reacting a bit.<<<
As with the mission statement of ColScott, I want to know the Truth and I know that Bugliosi is lying and, more impotantly, he knows it too.
>>>Like him, or hate him... Bugliosi is a huge part of this case. He was actually AT the entire trial, which is more than any of us can say... and, moreover... he's part of history.<<<
Yes he was, but i also know that Vince did whatever he possibly could to pin this thing on Manson and even went so far as to allow Susan Atkins to give grand jury testimony at at time when she was clearly not mentally competant to do so.
You can liken Bug to a criminal (if you want)... that's your prerogative... it really doesn't matter to me (I'm not Bug's mother)... but like it or not, the man IS part of American history, and always will be.<<<
Vincent Bugliosi IS a criminal and he was permitted to write his own version of history which he called "Helter Skelter".
It's a known fact that Vince was going around threatening various Manson Family members in order to get them to testify to what he wanted them to testify too. One such case was that of Catherine Share and i believe that even Catherine had publicly confirmed this in an interview that she did with the BBC.
Vincent Bugliosi, as Charles Manson himself once told a reporter by the name of Ben Horin, was basically given permission to break the law to secure a conviction and I believe that's exactly what he did.
It appauls me, that even to this day, NOBODY has confronted Vincent Bugliosi and challenged him about the validity of his so-called "Helter Skelter" theory.
I want Vincent Bugliosi himself to tell me why Linda Kasabian, who was in the car enroute to the LaBianca residence only a day after the Tate murders went down, did not participate in that event.
Linda Kasabian was not outside standing guard at the Tate residence as Vince has always claimed.
Linda Kasabian was not selected to participate in LaBianca because there was another destination on the agenda that evening and which was also why extra people were brought. Labianca had to happen FIRST.
Vince will NEVER admit that. He won't talk about Salindar Nader or even admit that Nader and LaBianca were time-linked events, but yet they were.
You let me at Vincent Bugliosi and i'll get you the truth. He won't dodge me. I'm not Larry King and I'm not Maury Povich.
I'm calling out Vincent Bugliosi because he's a LIAR.
Linda Kasabian herself, with the Tate and Nader events defines her role in things, but both Bugliosi and Steven Kay have thrown dirt on the Nader incident like it was something that never happened when it did.
This will PROVE that it was Charles Tex Watson and NOT Charles Manson calling the shots when it came to these murders.
The Bernard Crow incident, all by itself, shows us that Tex Watson was very much into his own wreckless thing even before the events of August 8th and 9th.
Salindar Nader is one of the missing links that proves MOTIVE and the MOTIVE, Mr Bugliosi, was not to ignite a race war. The Tate house itself is proof of that because there was only 1 word written on the outside part of the front door and it was only written as an afterthought as the members were walking down the driveway away from the house. NOTHING was written in blood on the inside. NOTHING. Not even after some of the others returned later that night after Manson was told about what happened. The tate house was to be isolated and searched.
No Lynyrd, Bugliosi IS the enemy and it's because he has lied and has written a FALSE history that has forever left its mark on our social conscience.
For that, Vincent T. Bugliosi, I hereby find you *GUILTY* as charged.
I wasn't angry at you Lynyrd - I just got annoyed when i saw you kneeling down to polish the shoes of Vincent T. Bugliosi.
Vincent Bugliosi is no different than John Waters. They'll both sell your soul for a nickel and they're both disgusting human beings.
You're a gentleman Lynyrd. Don't lower yourself to cater to people who are not deserving of it.
Good day Folks.
Watch casey anthony. She walked. Watch oj and robert blake. They walked too.
Charlie and clan will never walk.
Bug sacrificed his personal life to send them up.let's be glad we had a Bug. I don't want them out. I'm sorry they weren't executed.
Jimmy, who's been picking your brain boy? You need to come back to the light.
>>>>....but i also know that Vince did whatever he possibly could to pin this thing on Manson and even went so far as to allow Susan Atkins to give grand jury testimony at at time when she was clearly not mentally competant to do so.>>>
"Pinning this thing on Manson" was the only logical thing to do, since Manson was the reason it happened. Susan was perfectly capable of testifying to the grand jury. The only problem with that was that Susan was still controlled by Manson and he was able to bully her down.
>>>It's a known fact that Vince was going around threatening various Manson Family members in order to get them to testify to what he wanted them to testify too. One such case was that of Catherine Share and i believe that even Catherine had publicly confirmed this in an interview that she did with the BBC.>>>
You can call it "threatening" but in reality, it was the usual DA's tactic to get people to testify against the "leader" by offering them immunity for lesser charges, which is what he did. Nothing at all wrong with that.
>>>Vincent Bugliosi, as Charles Manson himself once told a reporter by the name of Ben Horin, was basically given permission to break the law to secure a conviction and I believe that's exactly what he did.>>>
"As Charles Manson himself once told a reporter"? That speaks volumes. Rule #1: don't believe anything Manson says.
>>>I want Vincent Bugliosi himself to tell me why Linda Kasabian, who was in the car enroute to the LaBianca residence only a day after the Tate murders went down, did not participate in that event.>>>
How would he know?
>>>Linda Kasabian was not outside standing guard at the Tate residence as Vince has always claimed.>>>
Linda is the one who said that, not Vincent.
>>>Linda Kasabian was not selected to participate in LaBianca because there was another destination on the agenda that evening and which was also why extra people were brought. Labianca had to happen FIRST.>>>
Okay....so how is this Vincent's fault?
>>>He won't talk about Salindar Nader or even admit that Nader and LaBianca were time-linked events, but yet they were.>>>
I know that you think the "proposed" Salindar murder is the "key" to this whole case, but in reality, it's a very insignificant piece of this puzzle. So some actor didn't get offed. How is this non-event crucial in determining the reason for these murders?
>>>Jimmy said: This will PROVE that it was Charles Tex Watson and NOT Charles Manson calling the shots when it came to these murders.
The Bernard Crow incident, all by itself, shows us that Tex Watson was very much into his own wreckless thing even before the events of August 8th and 9th.>>>
Who shot Crow??? Manson or Tex??? No one ever said at any time, anywhere to anyone in this case that TEX was in charge of anything but his own ding-a-ling.
>>>Salindar Nader is one of the missing links that proves MOTIVE and the MOTIVE, Mr Bugliosi, was not to ignite a race war. The Tate house itself is proof of that because there was only 1 word written on the outside part of the front door and it was only written as an afterthought as the members were walking down the driveway away from the house. NOTHING was written in blood on the inside. NOTHING. Not even after some of the others returned later that night after Manson was told about what happened. The tate house was to be isolated and searched.>>>
Jimmy we know there was only one word written at Tate, that they had the bolt cutters at Tate, that they had the rope at Tate, that they cut the phone lines at Tate, etc., etc., etc.
We've been trying to figure out the WHY to this since it happened. How does the above paragraph (1) involve Bugliosi and (2) solve the mystery of WHY?
I think we all pretty much agree that "Helter Skelter" was some bullshit Charlie made up to keep his minions in line. But they were his minions and they did what he said. We've established that.
We just need to know WHY?
Bugs did not make Helter Skelter up...
It was written on walls, doors, and a few members of the family painted this picture for him...
He may have grown the legend to fit his needs, and the notoriety of the case ( to fit his long term financial gains) but he didn't just pull the phrase out of the air...
Paul Watkins probably did more than anyone to make the myth of Helter Sketler...
But Bugs did use it for all it was worth....
Sorry to bum ya out Jimmy, but I plan on goin to this lil event. Not to worship or kiss the shoes of the Bug, but just to hear what the man has to say.
Hope to see ya there Lynn, and thanx for the heads up!
>>>St said: Bugs did not make Helter Skelter up...
It was written on walls, doors, and a few members of the family painted this picture for him...>>>
That's right St. But they all heard it from Charlie first.
>>>He may have grown the legend to fit his needs, and the notoriety of the case ( to fit his long term financial gains) but he didn't just pull the phrase out of the air...>>>
Vincent had to use the Helter Skelter theory to involve Manson. It was simply a way to prove Manson's dominance over some drugged-out hippies. Nothing more, nothing less.
Without this incredible "motive" he would probably never have gotten a conviction of Manson.
And...as we've discussed "ad nauseum", if Manson had just sat quietly in his chair for 9 months and not shown his domination over the "tribe", even WHILE in jail, he would probably have gotten a slap on the wrist.
I concur Charlie made it up...
I also concur it was a B/S motive...
I just am pointing out- bugs didn't pull the term out of a hat and invent the whole thing- that horse was saddled to be rode...
Charlie created the concept as it was come to be known is a better way to put it-
but with help and guidance from Paul Watkins and a few others...
along with some visual support...
bugs made into the legend it has become today.... for his own agenda
can we all agree on this??
just to bring in the only name missing from this smorgasbord today..
Even Leary agrees with this logic as you can see from this part of one of his posts on another blog...
The two deputies gave depositions on this and it was before Sadie blabbed and before the Bug was even assigned the case, wasn't it? Point being that there is a preponderance of evidence that Manson did believe in a race war. The Bug may have fancied up the facts, but dismissing Charlie's belief in a violent social uprising is not something I can do given all the testimony about it.
" The bugs may have fancied up facts"
Sort of just what I am saying...
So I guess monkey and Leary really aren't the same person after all???
So I am NOT always right...
St. Circumstance, I agree with you.
Charlie is the one who came up with Helter Skelter. The "uprising" that he predicted.
He came up with this long BEFORE Bugliosi ever heard of Manson or Helter Skelter.
Bugliosi used this "Helter Skelter" as a motive for the crimes.
I don't think he embellished it. I think that, according to family members OTHER than Watkins, as well as Watkins, Charlie preached the subject "fanatically" on many occasions.
Bugliosi didn't make that term up. The seed of Helter Skelter was already planted in the brains of the family members...by Charlie, long before Bugliosi and BEFORE the murders.
Now....that being said....was the true motive of these murders "Helter Skelter"?
I don't think so. Bugliosi used it to convict Manson.
And...I think that no one on this earth REALLY knows the motive, except for Manson himself.
H/S in my opinion was NOT the motive for what happened..
again- just a catch phrase for marketing purposes...
attached to a very tragic crime....
I wonder what Manson thought the lyrics to I am the Walrus meant?
Goo goo g'joob! :)
As I've said before, you know the case well, and have many of the facts straight.
I agree with you regarding Nader, and Kasabian... (and Atkins to a lesser extent).
In regards to HS, I have to go with Saint and Leary on this one.
(and you have no idea how monumental THAT statement is!). LOL
I didn't think it was possible to agree with both Saint and Leary simultaneously. LOL
At any rate, Jim....
I agree with most of what you're saying about Helter Skelter.
I believe Bugliosi intentionally excluded several other motives, which he had knowledge of... and intentionally went with HS... 'cuz, he wanted Manson.
Bugliosi had no shortage of motives to choose from... but, he purposely went with Helter Skelter specifically (and only), because it best implicated Manson.
Here's where we diverge:
I don't believe Bugliosi gave Helter Skelter to the "Family".
I believe, the "Family" gave Helter Skelter to Bugliosi.
And from there... Bugliosi rode it for all it was worth... in the courtroom, and as a cash cow.
We agree on all counts.
But, I don't believe Bugliosi conjured the HS story out of thin air.
It wasn't his own fabrication.
In regards to HS:
*Did Bug water it, nurture it, and fertilize it?
*Did Bug intentionally exclude all other motives, to get Manson?
*Did Bug twist arms, and make deals, along the way (such as Kasabian's), to sell the motive?
*Was Bug aware of several other more logical motives?
*Heck... Bugliosi says straight-out, on the Bertice Berry show:
"He didn't even think Manson (himself) believed the Helter Skelter non-sense at all".(paraphrasing)
BUT... the Helter Skelter story was begun by family members... and Bugliosi, (recognizing it as the "golden ticket" to hang Manson)... utilized it... at the exclusion of all other motives.
It's a small detail, but true, none-the-less.
As Saint said it best:
"bugs didn't pull the term out of a hat and invent the whole thing- that horse was saddled to be rode"...
Jim... the family saddled that horse, and Bugliosi rode it.
Look at it this way:
Bugliosi had 8 cards in his hand... all representing possble motives.
The "family" dealt him a minth card... with a picture of Manson's head on a platter, with HS, written in the top right corner.
Bugliosi immediately got rid of the other eight cards... and went "all in" with the "Manson Trump Card". LOL
It's a tough pill to swallow for Manson supporters... but, I really believe, that's the truth.
>>>>"Sorry to bum ya out Jimmy, but I plan on goin to this lil event. Not to worship or kiss the shoes of the Bug, but just to hear what the man has to say.
Hope to see ya there Lynn, and thanx for the heads up!"<<<<
Great to hear Lurch!
Please bring us back some details, and maybe a photo or two?! LOL
There's an outside chance Kimchi may attend this event as well.
There could be a "3-person contingent" from the blog! LOL
I'll let you know, if I hear more from Kimchi.
Peace Brother... Lynyrd
It would be interesting to meet Bugliosi. From my (admittedly limited) information, he comes across as rather self-satisfied and has an element of false modesty.However, there's no disputing the fact that the guy is highly intelligent and works pretty damn hard.
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