Saturday, June 22, 2024

Was Charlie at Cielo the night before?


A number of sources do suggest that very thing:

Death to Pigs, by Hendrickson pg501

Bugliosi interview by Merrick, 12-15-71

Bugliosi: "I'm the one that put Manson inside the gates of the Tate residence. I put him in there, not on the night of the murders, but a couple of nights earlier."

Manson's Right Hand Man Speaks Out by Charles "Tex" Watson c. 2012 pg43

It's believed that Manson was at the house looking for Terry the night before the murders and was offended by the new occupants.

www.mansonblog.com/2016/07/does-hour-or-three-make-difference.html

Grimtraveller said... "Back in 2005 on Col Scott's site, someone called GLH said that he'd spoken with Tex the month before and this is what Tex had told him "Manson had been to Cielo the night BEFORE the murders". I debated that with him, saying I'd heard that Manson had been there in March '69. He stood firm on his claim that Manson was there on August 7th (in the evening). ...and Manson was agitated the next day"

www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/manson-family-murder-victims-friend-posits-alternative-motive-1227729/amp/?fbclid=IwAR2zLJptusNrnAdAqMpYBbHFVS_PzcjA9J_985vXOOltgXVMPOxNcGDaNyU

Jay Sebring’s business partner Jim Markham:

"I believe Manson had gone up to the house” — Polanski was away shooting a movie — “and Manson wanted to sell cocaine and marijuana,” he says. “He showed Jay and Wojciech the product. They were going to buy some of it, but the two of them beat him up at the gate. The next night, Manson sent the Family up [to kill them].”

 truthontatelabianca.com/threads/true-detective-1970.2881/

Beausoleil: "He(Charlie) had been over near his [Melcher's] house and, as he said, he checked out the wires, telephone wires and the electric gates and exits from that property."

=======================================

Wait...  wasn't Charlie down in San Diego County on that date, bringing Stephanie Schram down to her sister's house in Jamul and having dinner there, and then sleeping on the lawn of the residence of one of Stephanie's friends?  Well, that is what Bugliosi claimed.  But what was that based on? 

Not Charlie.  He admitted going down to Jamul but didn't put a date on it.  

Not Schram.  She couldn't remember the date:

Helter Skelter, pg368

"Stephanie was a bit vague when it came to dates. She "thought" the day they returned to Spahn Ranch was Friday, August 8, but she wasn't sure."

Not that traffic ticket Charlie got from the Highway Patrol near Oceanside on the way down.  It's never been made public.

Not Stephanie Schram's sister, identified only as "Mrs. Hartman," who allegedly claimed that Charlie told her that "people were going to be slaughtered, they'll be lying on their lawns dead."    Her interview was never released.

Not Stephanie's 'friends' in San Diego on whose lawn Manson and Schram allegedly slept on, the night of Aug 7 to the morning of Aug 8.   There's no evidence they were ever identified.

=====================================

Though of course Schram never said anything about Charlie stopping by Cielo Dr. in the time she was with him, from her meeting him near Esalen to when they allegedly returned to Spahn, "arriving there about two in the afternoon" on Aug 8, in Bugliosi's version.  

But Schram claimed it was Aug 5 when she first came to Spahn with Charlie.  They had dinner there, and then in the evening drove off the ranch, but only for a couple of blocks before Charlie pulled over and they slept in the bakery truck that night.  The next day, which would have been Aug 6 if Schram is right, they drove down to San Diego, spent the night, returning to Los Angeles on what would have been Aug 7.  Note that during his trial Tex claimed he saw Charlie at Spahn the next morning, on Aug 8.  There are now enough gaps in the timeline to make a trip to Cielo the night before very possible.

So why didn't Bugliosi use evidence of this alleged visit by Charlie up to Cielo the night before, at the trial?  It would have been very incriminating to Charlie, whether the visit was to do a drug deal with Voytek, as per Markham, or to do a reconnaissance, as per Beausoleil.   The only realistic scenario is that Bugliosi could not have entered this evidence without revealing the source, which might refer to the house being under surveillance before the murders, as Doris Tate claimed.

Submitted by Starviego. Thank You Starviego.

21 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Starviego.

I have older submissions from you (and others) that I will post in the coming weeks.

katie8753 said...

Grimtraveller said... "Back in 2005 on Col Scott's site, someone called GLH said that he'd spoken with Tex the month before

He had spoken to Tex the month before what?

and this is what Tex had told him "Manson had been to Cielo the night BEFORE the murders". I debated that with him, saying I'd heard that Manson had been there in March '69. He stood firm on his claim that Manson was there on August 7th (in the evening). ...and Manson was agitated the next day"

I agree with Grim. Manson was there in March 1969 when Hatami was there and told him to get lost!

I believe that Manson was driving that stupid bread truck around until he returned to Spahn on August 8th when he learned that those 2 dopes were arrested for stolen credit card usage and he needed money to bail them out.

katie8753 said...

Why use stolen credit cards at Sears? Why not get some good steaks or something worth stealing? Oh wait, we're dealing with people who don't have brains.

TabOrFresca said...

Thanks Starviego for a decent concise article.

If anybody was watching Cielo, I would bet it was someone working for Folger’s father watching AF.

For the trial Bugliosi only presented what was needed to gain convictions. For the book Bugliosi was interested in selling books and patting himself on the back. The whole truth was not his concern for the trial or the book.

To me Bugliosi appears to emphasize that drugs were not part of the motive for the killings at Cielo. He also over emphasizes the “Helter Skelter” motive.

It would have been very difficult to prove that Manson was at Cielo on 8-7 to sell drugs to VF and JS. It was easy to prove that Manson spoke to many people of the “confusion” known as “Helter Skelter”.

Manson may have been at Cielo on 8-7, but Bugliosi wanted no part of that.

sunset77 said...

According to the book "Helter Skelter"

". . . Manson was cited for only having no valid drivers license in his possession. Manson gave his correct name and the ranch address, and signed the ticket himself. Officer Willis noted on the ticket that Manson was driving a 1952 cream color Ford bakery van, license number K70683. The date was Thursday, Aug. 7, 1969, time 6:15 p.m.

"That night, according to Stephanie, she and Charlie parked somewhere in San Diego and slept next to the van, returning to Spahn the next day, arriving there at about 2 in the afternoon.

According to Linda Kasabian, on the afternoon of August 8, Manson gave Mary Brunner and Sandra Good a credit card and told them to purchase some items for him. At 4 that afternoon the two girls were apprehended driving away from a Sears store in San Fernando, after store employees checked and found the credit card was stolen. The San Fernando PD arrest report stated that they were driving a "van 1952 Ford license K70683".

I don't think it's likely Manson was at Cielo Drive the night before.

starviego said...

Bugliosi apparently based his Jamul timeline solely on the traffic ticket issued by the CHP near Oceanside. From Helter Skelter, pg367-8:

"Manson... drove to San Diego... to pick up Stephanie's clothes.
Enroute, about ten miles south of Oceanside on Interstate 5, they were stopped by California Highway Patrol officer Richard C. Willis. .... The date was Thursday, August 7, 1969; the time 6:15P.M. The ticket, which (LAPD Sgt.)Patchett and (LAPD Sgt.)Gutierrez found, proved Manson was in Southern California the day before the Tate murders."


Bugliosi is quite explicit on the time and date of the ticket. Yet he only implies--but does not explicitly state--that this was on the way to San Diego(in the southbound lanes of I-5), but what if it was while on their way back from San Diego(in the northbound lanes of I-5)? That would allow Charlie to make it to LA in time for an evening trip to Cielo Dr. the day before the murders.

starviego said...

--The evening of the 7th of August, 1969, the four occupants of the Cielo house--Sharon, Jay, Gibby, and Voytek--are over at Sebring's house, located at 9810 Easton Dr. in Beverly Hills, watching a movie on cable TV and having dinner when the wires going into the house are allegedly cut, messing with the lights and interrupting the cable signal. Leading to the conclusion that this was an aborted murder attempt on the house's occupants, presumably by the same cast of characters that would finish the job the next night at Cielo Dr.

Listening to the recorded interview with the butler, the only time mentioned is 11pm, when the group finishes their dinner. Thus they probably would have arrived at the Sebring house that night between 9-10pm. This timeline is roughly consistent with Manson's alleged trip up to Cielo Dr., with a subsequent angry or even violent encounter with Jay and Voy as per the account of Markham, at around 8:30 to 9:30pm on Aug 7.

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=256052789067547


In Helter Skelter, Bugliosi implied the immediate precipitater to TLB was Charlie's anger for being snubbed by the audience at Esalen several days before. But the idea of Charlie being slapped around or disrespected at Cielo, just hours before a first murder attempt at Sebring's house, is a far more realistic proposition, IMO.

-------------

So what did Charlie do? Did he race back to Spahn, quickly gather up a kill posse, and then race over to Easton Dr. to do the dirty deed, somehow knowing Jay's location and address, only to be stymied by some complicated wiring?

Or did Charlie hang around Cielo, following them in their vehicle as they left the Cielo house, all the way to Easton Dr. a mile to the north? Did he then launch a plan to mess with their minds by cutting some of the wiring on their house? This would explain why none of the other family members ever mentioned this foray to Jay's house the night before. They didn't know about it. And if Schram was told to stay in the bread truck while Charlie walked up to the Sebring house, all she would know is that Charlie parked on some dark residential street somewhere and that Charlie walked off and didn't return for about half an hour.

Bugliosi claimed that Manson slapped Schram after being snubbed by the Esalen audience. Schram claims Charlie slapped her for messing up the chance to get a free meal, even before they went to Esalen. I speculate that was just a cover for Charlie slapping Schram after he was dissed by the Cielo residents, and before the wires were cut. Manson was so angry he couldn't control himself. IMO only!

starviego said...

From 'TaborFresca:'

"The 4-6-70 Brunner Statement/Interview could be used to support this hypothesis.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Is that when Charlie got back to the ranch with that bakery truck?

MS. BRUNNER:When he got back which time?

MR. STOVITZ: Well, no - you we can fix the date that you went out on August the 8th and you and Sandy had that bakery truck why, why didn't you take it before (unintelligible) bakery truck.

MS. BRUNNER:Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Charlie had to come back with that bakery truck sometime before you and Sandy (unintelligible) do you remember when it was?

MS. BRUNNER:He went up north and then he came back, then he left again, then he came back, then he left again, then he came back. He might have gotten back that day or the day before, I don't remember."

katie8753 said...

Starviego said: MS. BRUNNER:He went up north and then he came back, then he left again, then he came back, then he left again, then he came back. He might have gotten back that day or the day before, I don't remember."

Well that's as clear as mud! HA HA HA!!! I can't remember now but I'm thinking that Sharon wasn't feeling very well on the evening of August 7th and didn't want to go anywhere. 11:00pm seems really late for Sharon, being in her third trimester and being tired all of the time.

I know it's about a 2 hour drive from San Diego to LA, depending on how fast you drive I guess. I always assumed that Charlie got back to LA on August 8th.

Medium Patty said...

Hopefully we could learn more details whenever Stephanie Schram releases the book she teased in 2011:
https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/starcityradio/episodes/2012-05-16T15_57_33-07_00

starviego said...


Video of a parole hearing for Charlie: https://youtu.be/gp1_0N_3oj4?t=16

Charlie: "...ask him why the District Attorney moved the Highway Patrolman to the east coast, along with the traffic ticket...."

As far as I can tell, the CHP officer was never interviewed, nor has the traffic ticket ever been put into evidence, so Charlie may be onto something.

starviego said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
starviego said...

From the Schram interview of 2011 by Brian Davis.

6:35
Brian Davis: "Some of Charles Manson's supporters claim that Charlie told them that he was not at the LaBianca's house that night. Instead, he was on his way back to the ranch and you guys got a speeding ticket."
[the truck was actually stopped due to an equipment violation]

If true, Manson is claiming they got the ticket in the northbound lanes of Interstate 5, as I suspect.

grimtraveller said...

Another one of your ridiculous conspiracy theories, Star ? You never give up. You're so prescient at ignoring and trying to manipulate actual evidence, heck, you could be CIA ! 😄

starviego said...

I can't help it. I gotta be me!

grimtraveller said...

That's what Charlie Manson used to intimate !

katie8753 said...

The meaning of Prescient:

pre·scient adjective
having or showing knowledge of events before they take place:
"a prescient warning"


Starviego said:

Brian Davis: "Some of Charles Manson's supporters claim that Charlie told them that he was not at the LaBianca's house that night. Instead, he was on his way back to the ranch and you guys got a speeding ticket."
[the truck was actually stopped due to an equipment violation]


I thought we were talking about Manson being at Cielo Drive not Waverly Drive.

starviego said...

We were. The important part is Charlie seems to be endorsing the idea that they got the CHP ticket on the way BACK to LA from San Diego. And not TO San Diego, as Bugliosi strongly implied(but never explicitly stated as such).

katie8753 said...

According to Ed Sanders:

Manson & Stephanie arrived at Spahn's Ranch on the afternoon of August 6, 1969. They stayed part of the afternoon and evening at the ranch, then headed to San Diego, spending the night in the Twinkie truck. The next morning, August 7, 1969, they headed to Jamul, CA where Stephanie lived with her sister & brother in law, Mr. & Mrs. Hartman. At 4:15pm near Oceanside, CA, Manson was pulled over by the CHP and got a ticket for not having a license. They had dinner with the Hartmans and he talked about people dying on their lawns. Manson & Stephanie drove the truck to somebody's lawn and spent the night. That was on August 7th and on the morning of August 8th they drove back to the ranch, arriving around 1pm.

katie8753 said...

Wow I didn't mean to shut down the convo!!! I feel like Cat Stevens...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI2ToUNVh5s

katie8753 said...

That one guy looks like a "size LARGE". HA HA HA!