Monday, August 7, 2023

Conspiracy to Incite Violence

A man stands accused of inspiring, inciting, prompting (insert your word of choice) his followers to act, and their actions lead to violence and death. The accused man is not physically present during the violence, but he is arrested based upon his alleged influence over the perpetrators.

Does this sound familiar?

As I listen to the proceedings against Donald Trump, I'm struck by the parallels with Manson's case.

And Manson, as we know, helped to convict himself by virtue of his enormous ego, arrogance, and disdain for the court system. That seems to be another notable parallel. Could history repeat itself?

Both cases were national news and will span months.

This is obviously a gross oversimplification of the two cases, but there are similarities.

In my humble opinion, when the date for "transfer of power" arrived, Trump should have conceded defeat graciously. I think it was okay for Trump to challenge the election results up to that point, but if he couldn't prove election fraud before the "transfer of power" date, it should have been "game over". That should have been his deadline to admit defeat. 

Even if Trump was still convinced that there WAS election fraud, at that point, the peaceful transfer of power supersedes all else (for the good of the nation). At that point, the time for challenging the results had expired.

Do I think Trump belongs in prison over this situation? 

I think Trump exercised poor judgement. I think Trump is an extremist. His use of "social media" is unprofessional and detrimental to himself, and arguably others. But as of now, I don't think he belongs in jail. He probably belongs on a psychiatrist's couch, but not jail. (In his mind, I think he truly believed that the election had been stolen. That of course, is subjective speculation on my part). I say "as of now", because the legal proceedings have just begun, and I have no idea what further evidence the prosecution will submit. In short, I'm presuming Trump is innocent, until I'm convinced of his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Presumption of Innocence; Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. It is a cardinal principle of our system of justice that every person accused of a crime is presumed to be innocent unless and until his or her guilt is established beyond a reasonable doubt. The presumption is not a mere formality.


I think it should be noted, that Liberal Left "activists" have rioted, burned cities to the ground, looted stores, obstructed traffic, etc, etc,... all in the name of justice and protest (for various reasons, including outside Trump rallies), and no political figurehead has ever been held personally responsible for those actions. In fact, to my knowledge, no Democratic figurehead has ever publicly discouraged or condemned such actions (which obviously, would be the right thing to do). In reality, Democrats have condoned such actions repeatedly. It seems to me, the issue is not about what's being done (wrong), but who's doing it. We need a consistent standard of behavior and justice system for everyone. Unfortunately for Trump and the Republicans, from a legal standpoint, they probably chose the wrong venue and event to finally vent their spleen.

To vent one's spleen means to air one's grievances, to make enraged complaints, or to express one's anger.

I think the perpetrators of January 6th were complete whack jobs. I would never support or condone such activity. However, up until now, I haven't seen anything concrete which proves that Trump had specifically ordered those specific actions beyond reasonable doubt. Words such as "We have to fight for our Freedom. We have to fight for our country" can mean many things to many people. We'll see what the prosecution submits as evidence going forward. The prosecution may produce evidence that will convince me of Trump's direct participation and intent.

This situation does prove one thing however...

Our Department of Justice is definitely partisan along party lines, and that's bad for everyone. The Judge presiding over Trump's case is a hardcore Democrat, and any fool knows that will work to his disadvantage. In contrast, some of the Republican candidates for Presidency have already said they will pardon Trump if they are elected. What does that tell you? Our system has become an absolute joke.

If you're a Republican politician, you're innocent with a Republican Judge, and guilty with a Democratic Judge. If you're a Democratic politician, you're innocent with a Democratic judge, and guilty with a Republican judge. 

If you're a Republican politician, you're impeached by the Democrats, and pardoned by your own Republicans. If you're a Democratic politician, you're impeached by the Republicans, and pardoned by your own Democrats. This nonsense isn't good for anyone. We've become a 3rd-world nation.

Maybe Charles Manson's opinion of our justice system was more accurate than we care to admit. Don't get me started on the disparity of justice for rich men versus poor men...

Kangaroo court is an informal pejorative term for a court that ignores recognized standards of law or justice, carries little or no official standing in the territory within which it resides, and is typically convened ad hoc. A kangaroo court may ignore due process and come to a predetermined conclusion.

Trump would do himself a HUGE favor if he simply stopped insulting and threatening the Judge, Prosecutor and potential witnesses on social media. It's like watching Charles Manson screw himself all over again. Manson lost his right to defend himself because of his antics, and Trump may get his bail revoked for the same reasons. Where is Irving Kanarek when you need him?? LMAO!!!


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LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Generally speaking, I don't think it's a good idea to discuss politics on the blog, but it's nearly impossible to overlook the similarities between the two cases.

I don't intend to engage in a long drawn-out political debate with anyone, so if you disagree with me, have at it...

Dilligaf said...

Good analysis and perspective!

katie8753 said...

I think the election was stolen in certain states. The Democrats love to get votes from dead folks. And I agree, Trump should just keep his mouth shut on Social Media.

TabOrFresca said...

Social media has made it very easy for people in the spotlight to put their foot in their mouth.

Regarding Kanarek …
In his book, “Justice Overruled”, Burton Katz says this about Kanarek.

“But in his own mulish way, Kanarek did his job and frequently did it well. It was not elegant or pretty. He was invariably aggravating and annoying. He did whatever he thought was necessary to obtain an acquittal for his client.”

grimtraveller said...

Just after the election in 2020, St Circumstance did an interesting post that touches on this topic, here.
For the record, I think Lynyrd makes a very good set of points here.

An observation I'll offer, is that if we deal in "legal" "black & whites," we're rarely going to get anywhere in cases like the Manson and Trump ones. What makes them both so fascinating is that they both rest on something that is not concrete. For example, Manson never "told" Bobby to kill Gary Hinman when Gary wouldn't furnish Bobby with $20,000. That is, not in those words. But Bobby was in no doubt what Charlie meant when told "You know what to do."
Nowhere were Tex, Pat, Linda, Susan or Leslie told "Go murder these people and kick off HS." Yet, that is what Leslie understood {"And it was almost as though we had to make the first move for it to continue to develop...
And so it was up to us to start it"}, that is what Tex understood {"It sure was Helter Skelter"}, that is what Susan understood {"This would be the start of HS"} and that is what Pat understood {"HEALTER SKELTER"}. Manson's thing was that he couldn't be tied to anything because there was no direct order {"Go with Tex and do whatever Tex tells you."} to the women. And Donald Trump didn't tell anyone to go and storm any gates....but when you have something of a relationship with people, they learn to catch pretty much what you mean when you say something oblique. Just look at roast culture.
But it can rarely be proven. That's why the prosecution in TLB needed a Susan Atkins at the Grand jury and a Linda Kasabian at the trial. They put meat on the bones of the theory.
It'll be interesting to see what the prosecution have and whether it passes muster. Bugliosi had lots of stuff {death by a thousand cuts} by which to hang Manson.
Both Charlie and Donald are obvious egotists that love {or loved} attention and couldn't/can't keep their mouths shut and their egos out of it. However, there is one major difference. Donald Trump has been the president and is a multi-millionaire. Regardless of any notional application of law, money talks a good game in the right hands.

katie8753 said...

Thanks guys, good points.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Charlie had only gone into the courtroom wearing a suit, shaved off his beard, had his hair trimmed and washed, and just sat still during the proceedings, I don't think the jury would have found him guilty because it was just such a crazy story. But instead, he had to demonstrate to the jury that he had total control of the girls, having them shave their heads, cut an "x" on their foreheads, stand up and say crazy things all the time. It would be obvious to anyone with eyesight that he was totally controlling those girls. I think that he thought he could put his "jibber jabber" on the jury and they'd do what he said.

What will Trump do? Will he sit still during the proceedings and not stare at the jury? Or will he let his ego run away with him and try to stare them down? Will he try and be inconspicuous or get attention? I think juries look at all that stuff as well as the evidence.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thank You Dilligaf.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello Grim,

I agree with your post.

It appears that Mike Pence may become the "Linda Kasabian" of this case.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said:
I think the election was stolen in certain states. The Democrats love to get votes from dead folks.

Here's my gut feeling regarding voter fraud and tampering (based on absolutely no facts):

I think there's been a limited degree of voter fraud and tampering on both sides of the aisle since the beginning of time.

The idea that all of our elections have been completely honest, accurate and above-board since the nation's inception is naive. There are just too many variables and people involved in the process for that to be possible.

It's like Walmart. The company knows there will be some loss each year due to dishonesty (i.e., shoplifting). They call it "shrinkage". It's a reality, and it's built right into their system. They add a little bit to the price of each item in the store (and online) to recover their losses. Insurance companies do the same thing. They add to everyone's premium to recover the money they expect to lose that year due to fraud and dishonesty.

Dishonesty, to some extent, is an inherent part of business, politics and life in general.

The real question(s) is this:

#1) Was there enough voter fraud and tampering to overturn the final results of the election?

My guess is... "Eh... probably not".

#2) Is the effected party (Trump in this case) able to PROVE there was fraud?

The answer to this question is obviously "No". Trump invested considerable time, effort and money attempting to prove voter fraud, and he wasn't successful. With that being the case, the answer to question #1 becomes moot.

With all this in mind, Trump should have just "let it go".


Interestingly enough...

I once had a college Professor who asserted that without dishonesty and crime, our nation's economy would collapse. At face value, I thought the man was bonkers. But as I listened to him more closely, I became convinced that he may be correct.

Crime and dishonesty is a multi-million-dollar industry. Just think for a moment all the jobs, occupations and businesses which would be lost without dishonesty: Police, Correctional officers, locksmiths, alarm companies, many lawyers and court workers, all the computer security systems (software and personnel), arguably the entire military, the list is endless.

But alas, now I sound like Charles Manson... LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

TabOrFresca said:
Regarding Kanarek …
In his book, “Justice Overruled”, Burton Katz says this about Kanarek.

“But in his own mulish way, Kanarek did his job and frequently did it well. It was not elegant or pretty. He was invariably aggravating and annoying. He did whatever he thought was necessary to obtain an acquittal for his client.”

I will say this in Kanarek's defense:

Kanarek definitely had an uphill battle, given that his client (Manson) seemed absolutely hellbent on destroying any semblance of a defense.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said:

If Charlie had only gone into the courtroom wearing a suit, shaved off his beard, had his hair trimmed and washed, and just sat still during the proceedings, I don't think the jury would have found him guilty because it was just such a crazy story

I understand why many would come to that conclusion and it's certainly a valid one, but I disagree with it.
I'll admit, it's with the benefit of hindsight.
Firstly, it's exactly what Tex did. But he still got the death penalty.
What really nailed Charlie is......that he was actually guilty ! And Bugliosi, with his "death by 1000 cuts" approach, made sure that there were so many angles by which to force Manson into so many explanations that it would be pretty difficult for him to be convincing on all of them. On top of that, there was Linda. Then there was all the things that actually tied Manson to the crimes ~ the gun {it belonged to him}, the philosophy underpinning it all {which is where Paul Watkins, Brooks Poston and Gregg Jakobson were so valuable}, the words that turned up at the crime scenes, the rope {he bought it}, etc.
Charlie thought he was smart. Smarter than the average bear, certainly smarter than the law.
He met his match in Vincent Bugliosi.
When two egotists clash horns, it is going to be a humbling experience for one of them.
Even in a suit with trimmed hair and a quiet demeanour, explaining what Linda said, explaining away what Gregg Jakobson said, explaining away the fact that Leslie, Pat and Susan had all put him at centrestage in the murders when discussing with outsiders, those things were always going to be difficult.
Donald Trump doesn't have it as hard. On the other hand, because the whole affair has been played out in public and people have their own thoughts about things, it could count against him ~ but it may not have done so if he had just shurrup.

I think the election was stolen in certain states

In March of 2020, I suspected that he was positioning himself for a defeat with the requisite excuses. That's exactly what happened. Bolsinaro of Brazil did exactly the same thing. He lost too and came out with the same excuses about stolen elections.
I just don't buy it. Not in the nation that counts itself as the most advanced in the world.

katie8753 said...

Thanks for your thoughts Grim. You're right, Tex dressed up and acted "normal" during his trial but it's kinda hard to compare Tex to Charlie. Tex was the actual killer, and Charlie didn't kill anybody. Charlie was accused of ordering these murders.

It's really hard to prove conspiracy. Actually, the testimony that convicted Charlie was pretty sketchy at best. Charlie never told them what to write on the wall. He just said make it "witchy".

I don't think the gun belonged to Charlie. I think Randy Starr gave it to him.

I might be wrong in saying that if Charlie had just sat still in a clean suit and clean-shaven, but I really don't know.

Regarding the election of 2020: I went to bed that night knowing that Trump was ahead in the polls by a LOT! And when I woke up in the morning, I learned that Biden was ahead in certain states. Certain voting places "shut down" for hours and "re-opened" with lots of votes for Biden

It was really interesting that during the "deadlights" Biden's workers were scurrying around with death certificates making votes.

I find it really odd that Biden could get millions of votes between 12:00 midnight and 8:00am. In fact, Biden got more votes than Obama ever got. Which is unbelievable!

Biden got 81 million votes. There can't be that many people in this country who would vote for a guy that can't even hold his head up to finish a sentence, falls down all the time, can't speak in coherent sentences and has to ask people how to get out of a room.

Sorry I don't believe that for one single second!

katie8753 said...

As far as Tex goes, he comes across as a "country boy" but somehow when he moved to CA, he changed a lot. He was quick at disappearing for a while, then returning to get back on the scene. I think Tex is a lot more dangerous than Charlie ever was.

I really don't think that Charlie really valued Tex. I think he thought Tex was dangerous and uncontrollable. But in August of 1969 I think Charlie was desperate. Bobby was in jail. Tex was all he had as far as "hit men".

I'm not defending Charlie, but I really think Tex was more dangerous than Charlie. I think that Tex had gotten so dangerous that he might have offed Charlie.

And maybe Charlie knew that...

katie8753 said...

Biden has ordered the arrest and prosecution of his contender, Donald Trump. Those are the actions of a communist country. If one party controls the election, it's no longer a democratic country!


grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said:

Regarding the election of 2020: I went to bed that night knowing that Trump was ahead in the polls by a LOT!

A commentator could have told you as you were going to bed that night, that it ain't over till the fat lady sings. Or as my Mum used to annoyingly tell me, never count your chickens until the eggs have all hatched.

And when I woke up in the morning, I learned that Biden was ahead in certain states

In a country with as many states as the USA, I'm genuinely surprised that you would find that surprising.

I find it really odd that Biden could get millions of votes between 12:00 midnight and 8:00am

Why ?
That happens in elections. It's happened here a few times. The early counting suggests one thing, but once everything is in, even allowing for recounts, there may be a very different conclusion.
It happened in our 2016 Brexit vote, which, more than any vote in my adult life really opened up the polarization[s] that existed in the UK, and still do. The "Remain" vote was out in front, to the extent that the leading architects of the "Leave" vote had more or less already conceded and were strategizing about what to do next. Then results started pouring in and from the most unlikely areas came "Leave" votes galore.
Result ? Britain left the EU. Politicians, bookies, commentators and financial experts were, and still are, shocked.

In fact, Biden got more votes than Obama ever got. Which is unbelievable!

I almost hate to say this but I'm going to ¬> I suspect it wasn't unbelievable to lots of Black people in the USA.

Biden got 81 million votes. There can't be that many people in this country who would vote for a guy that can't even hold his head up to finish a sentence, falls down all the time, can't speak in coherent sentences and has to ask people how to get out of a room

Why can't there ? Like many supporters of Donald Trump, it seems that you were perhaps so locked within your own sphere that you did not listen to others that felt differently. I see it happening all the time. It is almost exactly what happened to Hilary Clinton in 2016. It is what happened to Brexit "remainers" here. That kind of dismissal of any opposing view and a misplaced confidence that you simply cannot be beaten because you claim the moral high ground, when in fact, you don't. The same thing happened to Boris Johnson here both last year and this year. He was said by everyone to be the reason the Tories swept Labour aside in the 2019 election, and there was a lot of truth in that, although equally true was the idea of Jeremy Corbin becoming PM, being a bridge too far, even for Labour supporters. So Boris went on to run roughshod over the public's feelings about what may have been fairly minor matters {"Partygate" during covid}, but which incensed the public at large. And when over 50 of his MPs resigned, he still tried to tough it out. But he wasn't listening.
Donald Trump seems to me to be someone that will not accept what a slice of the voting public were saying to him. Hence, the excuses. He is so Manson-like in that regard. There are many people like them the world over, in every era that humans have recorded.

Biden has ordered the arrest and prosecution of his contender, Donald Trump

I don't know if it was Joe B that actually ordered that.
Nevertheless, his son is now being investigated and the investigator has been granted further powers. So, perhaps it is more equal in the USA than you perceive it to be.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said:

Those are the actions of a communist country. If one party controls the election, it's no longer a democratic country!

Someone should have told that to DT.
I'm a big fan of Columbo. In the one about the electronics genius {with the wheelchair-bound wife} that murders his mother-in-law, Columbo says something that has long stuck in my mind. He said that he always paid special attention when someone with a followable routine steps outside of that routine and does something, even if it seems harmless or unworthy of attention.
In March 2020 when the prez announced his intention to restructure the postal service {and therefore impacting postal voting}, I remember thinking to myself, "Oh aye, there's some posturing afoot here. I suspect he's laying the groundwork for excuses if he loses in November." So when he lost and started saying the election was stolen, I had an 8 month head start on him. I saw it coming, it came. Exactly the same thing happened last year with Bolsonaro in Brazil, a man who has modelled himself and his presidency on DT. I could see where he was going there too. Even this year with Boris, when he was investigated by the privileges committee, the way he was talking during the investigation, one could see he was setting himself and his supporters up for him being found guilty and the excuses of bias that would {and did} follow. Charlie Manson did that. Spoke for over a year about how his voice was taken from him, how he'd been found guilty in the press, how he couldn't get a fair trial.
Never mind that while he was saying all of this, he didn't know Lotsapoppa Crow was alive, he still thought he'd killed him ! Never mind that for the first 5 months of his outbursts, it wasn't known that he'd been part of the Hinman murder and had whacked Gary with a sword and left a wound so bad that the ME said it was "possibly fatal."
For better or worse, America is a democracy and many guilty people get found out in the end.

I don't think the gun belonged to Charlie. I think Randy Starr gave it to him

Yeah, Randy did give it to him. ∴ it was Charlie's gun. During his trial testimony, he doesn't even deny it, he openly admitted it.

Actually, the testimony that convicted Charlie was pretty sketchy at best

That's the line that George Stimson takes in "Goodbye Helter Skelter" and it's also the line Irving Kanarek took. He said that he offered no defence because the prosecution didn't prove its case.
I beg to differ and I think it was an insane line for Irving to take. It makes me seriously wonder if the seeds of his eventual mental illness weren't beginning to sprout during the trial. He was in denial about Charlie's guilt to the end of his life and he lived to be 100 !
I'll also say this; if anyone genuinely believes that the testimony was sketchy, they can do worse than read the entire trial testimony. I admit, some of it is really hard going. It took me a couple of months to get through its entirety. But it was and is fascinating. The prosecution called something like 85 witnesses from a huge variety of sources. There were technicians, ex-family members, Linda Kasabian, friends of Charlie, people that could fill in gaps. And Bugliosi presented a picture so damagingly complete {death by 1000 cuts}, that the defence that Manson was going to put on {which he and his co-defendants foolishly put on during the penalty phase} would have fried him more thoroughly than a Kentucky fried chicken.
The testimony that convicted Charlie was comprehensive. Yes, it was made up of many little parts, some seemingly inconsequential, some damaging. Put together, it showed that the only way Manson was going to escape was to front it out and be cross examined by Bugliosi, and in all honesty, I don't think he had the balls to do it. Some of the things he discussed with and said to Bugliosi in private are nothing short of devastatingly amazing.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said:

it's kinda hard to compare Tex to Charlie

I've long thought it interesting that Charlie was referred to as 'Charlie' but Tex wasn't even known by 'Charles'.

Tex was the actual killer, and Charlie didn't kill anybody

In TLB, maybe. But Charlie helped kill Shorty, would have possibly been the killer of Gary, had Bobby not got there first and certainly meant to kill Lotsapoppa, and thought him dead.

Charlie was accused of ordering these murders

Well, I compare his situation to that of America and Bin Laden. The American govt spent 10 years hunting for Bin Laden ~ he never "killed" anyone. Yet he planned the murder of a few thousand people. People that would have been alive on Sept 12th 2001 had he not done so. To take it further, is Vladimir Putin not responsible for the deaths of thousands of Ukrainians over the last 18 months ? He sure is, but he's not "killed" any of them ~ by his own hand.
Ordering a murder, in many, many instances is the same as being the hand that strikes. Lots don't accept that, but in my opinion, that's truly naive.

It's really hard to prove conspiracy

Though it's easy to be wise in hindsight, proving conspiracy against Manson wasn't that hard, primarily because he was actually guilty. It really was a case of the pieces falling into place. Once LE had an Atkins/Linda, all the evidence, when put together, spoke loud and clear. A truly great book worth reading is Simon Davis' "In a Summer Swelter." The way he collates the evidence against Charlie is eye-opening. For me at least, never again can the evidence against Charlie be doubted. And it's not even a case of being wise after the event, because this is what Bugliosi ran with from the start. He knew he had a conspiracy case and he was doggedly determined that evidence would flow. Aaron Stovitz and his other superiors didn't possess his tenacity or the requisite patience.

Charlie never told them what to write on the wall. He just said make it "witchy"

Mind you, in his first book, Tex said that Charlie gave him a load of phrases to write as messages. He also said the women knew from Charlie what to write, before they set off.
But I don't believe him. The 3 women on that first night all stated that they did not know they were off to murder before they left.
Susan's explanation to the GJ as to why she wrote "PIG" was that she had been involved in Hinman and remembered "POLITICAL PIGGY" being written. And Pat's writing the next night reflected what was in her mind. She didn't want to be committing murder and as Pat has always shown, she was pretty easily rattled, let alone while carrying out such a traumatic deed. So what she wrote reflected what she remembered of Charlie's preaching. If she'd been thinking straight, she'd never have written "HEALTER SKELTER." Like Bugliosi said in the trial, it was like leaving Charlie's calling card.

I think Tex is a lot more dangerous than Charlie ever was

This is the great debate ~ was he ? Tex never initiated any killing on his own and I still believe he would never have killed had Manson not commanded it.
But maybe that's what made him so dangerous. He was pretty easy to mould.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said:

I think he thought Tex was dangerous and uncontrollable

Yet on 3 occasions, he told him to commit murder and on 3 occasions, Tex did. When he told Tex to go out to Olancha, Tex went. When he said fix these Dune Buggies, Tex fixed them. When he said let's go find the hole to the bottomless pit, Tex went looking. When he said let's burn this earth mover, Tex concurred.

in August of 1969 I think Charlie was desperate. Bobby was in jail. Tex was all he had as far as "hit men"

I don't know about that. He had no proven hit men at all. But he had something that was equally effective. Bobby's actions had shown him what he had, plus the fact that Mary & Susan were involved ~ and none of them had as yet, blabbed. Bobby had demonstrated that people were prepared to go all the way and kill at his suggestion.
And there were men around. Bruce, Clem and Larry Jones {all of whom were Shorty's killers} were there. Vern Plumlee volunteered to go along the next night but wasn't needed. Charlie had clearly been testing the waters, telling Brooks Poston, TJ, Sunshine Pierce and Juan Flynn {as well as Ella Jo Bailey} to kill and sounding out Pat and Leslie.

I think that Tex had gotten so dangerous that he might have offed Charlie

If there is one thing I am certain of it's that that would never have happened. Tex didn't have what it took to confront Charlie. When you think about it, he killed people either when he had a gun in his hand or when the people he killed were incapacitated. Right up to their last meeting, Charlie was telling Tex what to do {kill the desert rangers} and I think he showed what he really thought of Tex, when Tex was supposedly mentally ill, Charlie suggested he be given 20 minutes with him to cure him. It didn't occur to him that Tex was faking it ~ he believed in his power to bring Tex back under his sway.

Donna said...

Paranoid much?

grimtraveller said...

Who ?

katie8753 said...

I think she's talking about me. And I'll reply when I'm good'n ready.

katie8753 said...

katie8753 said...

Donald Trump has been charged with 91 indictments by Sleepy Joe. A guy that can't even finish a sentence? Can't even ride a bike? Can't even find his way out of a room? Sniffs children? Avoids questions because he doesn't understand them?

Unbelievable!!! What's wrong with this country? Have we turned Red? Is that the only way to beat an opponent, arresting him?

Who would vote for Joe Biden? Does everyone know how much inflation has cost people? I'm spending about $80 more per week at the grocery store for the SAME STUFF!!

We need to get Joe Biden out of office! If you don't want to vote for Trump, then vote for another GOP Candidate.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Grim said:
Manson didn't really expect to be convicted. I think he thought all of his obfuscation would work for him, if not at trial, then at appeal.

I agree that Manson never expected to be convicted, but I arrive at that conclusion from a different angle.

Manson was convinced, that because he never actually killed anybody (personally), that he couldn't be convicted of murder.

He always said things like: "What do you want to call me a murderer for? I never killed anybody".

He believed that he had outsmarted the system.

He left the scene before the real killing began (i.e., Hinman & Waverly). As much as possible, he made sure that the victims' blood was on the hands of others. He generally spoke in veiled terms to his minions to avoid explicitly ordering murder. By doing such things, he thought he had insulated himself from culpability.

And from a Layman's standpoint, it makes some sense. How can you be convicted of murder without actually killing someone? At face value, it seems logical.

The problem for Manson, is he didn't know the law as good as he thought he did.

As we now know, "conspiracy to murder" carries the same conviction as physically murdering someone yourself. Manson didn't know that prior to his arrest, and he didn't bank on that. And even after his conviction, it's obvious that Manson never believed he deserved the same sentence as a "murderer", hence the reason he reminded everyone at every opportunity that "I never killed anybody".

Halfway through the trial (if not sooner), he likely figured-out that he was f#cked, but by then, it was too late.


Grim said:
"It's interesting that they both met their match in Bugliosi."

Bugliosi was an amazing lawyer.

That's not my personal opinion, that's an undisputable fact. His record speaks for itself.

The man successfully prosecuted 105 out of 106 felony jury trials, which included 21 murder convictions.

On a personal level, he may have been a dishonest asshole with no scruples, a wifebeater, and a complete piece of shit (as explained by others). As for myself, I really don't know. I didn't know the man personally.

But one thing is certain: He was an extremely effective lawyer.

I don't see how anybody can study this case and view his courtroom record and conclude otherwise.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Addendum... LOL

Another thing I wanted to mention but forgot...

I'm gonna paraphrase this quote because I don't remember it exactly (off the top of my head), and I can't find it anywhere online at the moment, but Manson did say this (essentially):

"Bugliosi has great intellect, he has charm, he has great education, he has great delivery.... but he doesn't have a case". "He's got everything but a case".

This quote goes hand-in-hand with my point above.

Manson felt he was untouchable because he never killed anyone (himself). He honestly believed that Bugliosi didn't have a murder case against him (because he never killed anyone).

However, after observing Bugliosi work his magic for weeks and months in the courtroom, he surely realized at some point that the law didn't match his belief (and he was screwed).

But yes, initially, he thought he could never be convicted.

beauders said...

How could Manson be so dumb as to believe he could not be convicted? The man spent most of his life in prison, he had to know inmates that didn't hands on kill anyone but were part of a group that killed. No one could be that dumb.

beauders said...

Katie, why does RJ give a shit about Hope and Liam's marriage? It's like it's all he thinks about. I'm bored with RJ and you can see he is wearing make-up.

beauders said...

And what was Brooke wearing on her forehead?

katie8753 said...

Beauders this week on B&B has been the laziest one yet. I think all the writers are on vacation. All these guys do is whine about Steffy and then look off into the distance and "have memories" of being with her.

That stupid thing on Brooke's forehead was some kind of skin accessory to go with the "mermaid party" for Beth. And I don't know if you noticed or not but I can guarantee you that most of the women on that show have had boob jobs. And those 38's were hanging out all over the place. And how come Steffy wasn't at this "mermaid party"?

I don't know why RJ is even on this show. He contributes nothing to anyone. I think he's harrassing Liam & Hope to get back together because Finn told him to.

Lastly, I do think that Manson thought he was "above the law" because he didn't actually kill anyone (maybe Shorty????) but I also think that he felt more comfortable and in control in prison.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Beauders said
How could Manson be so dumb as to believe he could not be convicted?

I didn't say Manson believed he could not be convicted. What I said was... He believed he could not be convicted and sentenced with a charge congruent with first-degree murder.

He thought he would walk-out with a much lighter sentence (as an accessory participant at best) and the kids would be the fall guy(s) who received life sentences or the death penalty.

Manson had no problem committing petty crimes and lesser crimes. But, he made an effort to distance himself from murder at every juncture. There's obviously a reason for that, and I highly doubt it's because he was a nice Christian boy who didn't believe in murder.

Even in the Crowe incident, the plan was for TJ Walleman to shoot Crowe! Once again, (in Manson's mind) Charlie was placing the heavy prison sentence (for murder) on his buddy's shoulders (not his own). Once again, Manson wasn't going to "actually kill someone". Manson figured (at best) he'd be an accessory participant (as opposed to the primary perpetrator) and receive a lesser sentence. Charlie only shot Crowe himself, because TJ Walleman chickened-out, and there was no other option.

And I'd be willing to bet dollars for donuts, that Manson was pissed with TJ Walleman (after the fact) for making him the chief perpetrator.

This is all common sense Beauders. Manson obviously thought he was insulating himself by having others draw the blood.


Beauders said:
The man spent most of his life in prison, he had to know inmates that didn't hands on kill anyone but were part of a group that killed. No one could be that dumb.

I disagree.

In 2023 context, I would agree. But prior to the mid-60's, this type of home invasion killing-spree orchestrated by a cult leader and perpetrated by multiple killers spanning months involving several locations, was a relatively unheard-of phenomenon. This event made national news at the time not just because of the severity, but because it was so unusual.

In fact, the police had a difficult time connecting all the murders and murder locations to one group of perpetrators, because this was an unusual phenomenon.

TabOrFresca said...

Beauders said: “
How could Manson be so dumb as to believe he could not be convicted? The man spent most of his life in prison, he had to know inmates that didn't hands on kill anyone but were part of a group that killed. No one could be that dumb.”

I don’t know exactly what he knew. Even if he knew what Felony Murder and Vicarious Liability were, he probably knew only pieces.

Two things that I don’t think he was thinking would happen were: first, that certain evidence would be introduced as exceptions to the hearsay rule; and second, that certain evidence would be admitted where the “prejudicial effect outweighed the probative value”. These were needed to prove conspiracy.

One thing indirectly related to this, is kind of interesting. Burton Katz was the ADA in the second Beausoleil trial and both Grogan trials. He relied on evidence being admitted (hearsay and prejudicial).

In the early 80s Katz was a judge. At the trial for the murder of Dominique Dunne, the daughter of Dominick, Katz did not allow very substantial evidence on these two grounds. The jury found the murdered guilty of manslaughter. Katz later criticized the jury for not finding second degree murder. When the foreman of the jury read the news which described the main (prejudicial) evidence excluded, he said he would have voted for first degree so that the defendant would get life. The thing that was different about this case is that there was no denial that the victim was killed by the defendant. The defense was downplaying it to be an unfortunate incident.

The judge assigned to a case and what evidence is allowed or disallowed makes a big difference.

If Manson ended up with a Judge that ruled similar to Katz in admitting evidence, you and Katie may not be filling in gaps talking together about soaps.

TabOrFresca said...


The one thing that I would have worded differently, in your last post, was that “TJ chickened out”. TJ showed that he was not a “mindless robot” and that Manson did not have full control of him. Manson did not influence or program TJ to commit a violent act. TJ should receive credit for this decision and not be labeled a chicken. But yes Manson only shot Crowe after TJ, though his actions, said “no”.

katie8753 said...

Did Manson participate in killing Shorty?

beauders said...

Katie, again Manson was in the car when Shorty was murdered but I think Clem and Bruce where the ones who actually killed Shea. I just realized Katie, the writers in Hollywood are on strike, that must be why B&B has been so lame lately. They are killing time by having memories.

Medium Patty said...

RICO is in the news these days, I wonder if it could've been used in the Manson trial to prove conspiracy? "The law does not require prosecutors to prove that defendants directly engaged in criminal activity, just that they were part of a larger organization that did."

And I also don't think Manson was dumb, I think his brain was wired differently than most people. The courtroom antics certainly showed his unique line of reasoning. He had contrasting impulses of control and self-destruction which caused him to flame out spectacularly at the end.

Medium Patty said...

TorF: good reminder about TJ, another member who wouldn't kill on demand - even with Manson right beside him with a gun.

TabOrFresca said...

Medium Patty said:

“RICO is in the news these days, I wonder if it could've been used in the Manson trial to prove conspiracy?”

The only one that posts here that could give an accurate legal based answer is dilligaf.

I believe that when RICO came out it was for Federal law and not State Law. I seem to remember this coming into effect after 1969, possibly 1970, and If so I would think that “ex post facto” would have applied for Federal cases. I don’t know if California had something similar before or adapted something similar after. Dill probably would be best to answer this.

TabOrFresca said...

Katie8753 said:

“Did Manson participate in killing Shorty?”

The short answer is yes?

Grogan, Davis, and Manson were all convicted of Murdering Shorty Shea at separate trials.

The major evidence against Manson was Manson’s mouth. Before Lutesinger, Krenwinkel, Atkins, Springer, DeCarlo, LVH, Brunner, etc opened their mouths, Manson bragged about murdering Shea.

He told Watkins and Poston directly, but separately, on the same day. Hoyt also overheard him tell DeCarlo. They were witnesses against him. I believe he thought he would be safe because what they would say is hearsay, but there are exceptions to this rule. The statement “anything you say can be used against you” sometimes applied to times before you are arrested.

While not charged or convicted, Grogan said at his parole hearings that Watson was at the seen and he inferred that Watson inflicted the first stab wounds after Grogan hit Shea on the head with a pipe wrench. Grogan then stabbed Shea in the chest. Other wounds were inflicted by others (Davis and Manson). Davis tells the story slightly different. He’s had a lot of years, like 40 years after Grogan, to revise what his story is.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

TaborFresca said:
The one thing that I would have worded differently, in your last post, was that “TJ chickened out”. TJ showed that he was not a “mindless robot” and that Manson did not have full control of him. Manson did not influence or program TJ to commit a violent act. TJ should receive credit for this decision and not be labeled a chicken. But yes Manson only shot Crowe after TJ, though his actions, said “no”.

Medium Patty said:
TorF: good reminder about TJ, another member who wouldn't kill on demand - even with Manson right beside him with a gun.


The best option here, is to simply state that "TJ backed-out". Each person can formulate their own opinion as to why.

The fact is, none of us will ever know for sure why TJ backed-out.

He may have chickened-out, he may have had a moment of personal conscience, or he may have been a strong independent character (as you suggest).

However, based on all the pre-occurring and surrounding factors, "chickened-out" is the most likely scenario.

Here's the key:
By all accounts, the event was pre-planned.

The plan was that Manson would baffle them with bullshit. While Manson was distracting them, TJ would pull the gun from the back of Manson's waistband and shoot Crowe with it.

Here's the key question:
If TJ was such a strong independent character, why didn't he refuse the plan before they left the ranch?

TJ could have easily said:
"Yo Charlie, fuck your idea. Your plan sucks. I'm not killing Crowe. Kill him yourself. I'm just here to drop acid and f#ck beautiful ladies. I didn't sign-up for your killing bullshit. And hey, grab me another beer while you're up".

In fact, if TJ had no intention of following the plan and killing Crowe, why did he go along at all?

He agreed to the plan, and he agreed to go along.

Charlie would not have attempted to execute the plan, if TJ hadn't agreed (to the details of the plan) in advance.

So... here we are... at Crowes place. The plan has been formulated and agreed-upon.

The plan is literally in-progress, and TJ backs-out.

Why does he back-out? Again, we'll never know.

He may have chickened-out, he may have had a fleeting moment of personal conscience, or, his balls may have grown 3 sizes at that moment (like the Grinch's heart on Christmas Day). We'll never know...

TJ had military training. I'm sure he knew that backing-out of this type of plan (at the last moment) would prove extremely dangerous. For that reason, it's my opinion, that if TJ was going to back-out due to personal strength and conviction, he would have done it BEFORE they left the ranch. (That would have been the most safe and sensible approach).

I'm supposed to believe that TJ intentionally waited until they were eyeballs deep in the heat of battle to finally exercise his independence over Charlie?? Jeez... talk about stupid timing. That doesn't even make sense.

If he had a moment of personal conscience at the last second, then yes, I commend him for it. But based on all the surrounding factors, I'd say that's not the most likely scenario.

I agree, it's not fair for me to state unequivocally that TJ "chickened-out". But it's also not fair for you to assume that TJ "said no" for noble reasons. The fact is, we'll never know for sure.

It's best to just say "TJ backed-out".

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

In fairness, just about anything can be questioned.

The "story" about Charlie hiding the pistol in the back of his pants (etc,etc,etc) has been told dozens of times online, and as a consequence, we just take it as fact.

But does anyone really know how and where that version of the story originated?

Even if the story originated with Manson or TJ himself, that really means nothing. We'd have to assume that Manson and TJ were 100% honest with a fully functioning memory of the events. That in itself is a stretch.

Lots of gangsters hide their pistol in the back of their pants (especially if they don't have a proper holster). That doesn't mean their buddy is expected to draw it from there...

TabOrFresca said...


These are the earliest sources that I know of.

TJ as a prosecution witness, guilt phase.

Volume 86 page 10280

Q: Did you do anything with the revolver as you got out of the car?
A: I put it in my belt.
Q: After you got out of the automobile and you put the revolver in your belt, what is the next thing that happened with respect to that revolver?
A: Charlie asked for it.
Q: Charlie Manson?
A: Yes.
Q. Did you give Mr. Manson the revolver?
A: Yes.
Q: Then you both entered the apartment; is that correct?
A: Yes.

Crowe as a penalty phase witness

Volume 171 page 21716 -21717

Q: What is the next thing that happened?
A: Well, he [Manson] got up, and he said: Of course I came ready. And then he backed up a little bit, and he pulled a revolver out of his belt and started pulling the trigger.

Ed Sanders in both the early Dune Buggy/Family and the later Family basically says that Manson entered the apartment, places the gun on the table, and eventually picks up the gun and shoot Crowe. Sanders source for inside the apartment is Dale Fimple, the guy Crowe calls “Del” in the trial testimony.

Emmons says that Manson took the gun from TJ on the stairs to the apartment stuck in his [Manson’s] belt “behind his back”. …
Manson shoots Crowe

In the car TJ asks Manson why he killed him?
Manson try’s to throw blame on TJ saying it was TJ that brought the gun.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks TabOrFresca

As we might expect, every account has a slightly different spin.

And interestingly enough, none of these accounts depict TJ as "backing-out" or "chickening-out" of anything.

It seems Manson took control of the pistol and the situation voluntarily and intentionally (without TJ's prior knowledge or consent).

Maybe it was actually Manson who "chickened-out" at the last minute, taking control of the only gun available between them (for his own protection).

He pretty much left his buddy TJ out-in-the-cold without protection when he commandeered his gun.

Donna said...

Katie - Biden doesn't have the power to charge Trump with anything. That is what grand juries and DAs do. Take a basic civics course, it might help decrease ignorance and paranoia.

TabOrFresca said...


The “chickened-out” originally appeared in “Helter Skelter”. It was DeCarlo telling the story to Bugliosi.

So TJ, Crowe, Fimple, who were there, don’t mention “chickened-out”. DeCarlo, who hears bragging of the incident, does.

Similar to Paul Watkins saying he was told by Manson that Grogan cut off Shorty’s head and Shorty was in nine pieces. Definitely a fabricated brag in this case.

What TJ and Crowe testified to: was able to be cross-examined, was heard by a jury, and (maybe) seen by the appeals court.

“Chickened-out” made good reading.

Flip a coin.

katie8753 said...

Donna, ignorance and paranoia is right up your alley. HA HA. I'll be with you tomorrow. Have a nice evening.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders. I forgot the writers were on strike. That is lame. They don't really need the writers, it's lame anyway.

Thanks Tab. Bruce has changed his story so many times, who knows what happened to Shorty.

katie8753 said...

I think Bruce is as dangerous as Tex. Wasn't he there when Zero was killed? Supposedly he killed himself but there were no fingerprints on the gun and it was fully loaded. That's pretty much impossible.

grimtraveller said...

TabOrFresca said:

The “chickened-out” originally appeared in “Helter Skelter”. It was DeCarlo telling the story to Bugliosi

Actually, he was telling it to LAPD. According to DeCarlo, the next morning, Charlie had a go at TJ for backing out of the plan. He clearly saw it as TJ chickening out.
It's worth remembering that TJ and Charlie had gone along to Rosina's apartment in the first place, in response to them believing that some guy was threatening to come to Spahn and do everyone there, in. So with a gun in the back of Charlie's belt, there was clearly some plan to do something that went beyond mere self-defence.

So TJ, Crowe, Fimple, who were there, don’t mention “chickened-out”. DeCarlo, who hears bragging of the incident, does

TJ wouldn't, because he could get charged for something if he admitted that he'd gone along to an apartment with the intention of shooting someone that eventually got shot.
Crowe wouldn't because there's no way he would know what Charlie and TJ had planned.
Fimple, like Crowe, wouldn't have known what the plan was. It's not like Charlie and TJ discussed it in front of them ! I, for one, do not believe that Charlie put the gun on the table.
But Crowe said that Charlie told him that he'd come prepared and Charlie was certainly of the mind that TJ had an end of the bargain to fulfill that he reneged on.
Bearing in mind that DeCarlo says he saw the $2700 that Tex had swindled Crowe out of, there's now no doubt in my mind that Manson could have returned the money and the fact that he had no intention of doing so shows that he went along that night with the intention of Crowe getting shot. That TJ was with him indicates that TJ was part of that equation. Why he didn't do it will be forever a matter of speculation, except to say that the same thing was to later happen with Susan and Leslie and to a lesser extent, Clem.

Donna said:

Biden doesn't have the power to charge Trump with anything

One of the problems with bias is that it rarely lets the truth or the facts get in the way of, or amend, its single-minded belief.

beauders said:

the writers in Hollywood are on strike, that must be why B&B has been so lame lately

No offence, but the way that show has been described here for the last couple of years, "lame" is almost a compliment. It sounds like it was being written by a team of giraffes in a deep 20 minute sleep ! 😃

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said:

Donald Trump has been charged with 91 indictments by Sleepy Joe. A guy that can't even finish a sentence?

Even assuming that this was true, so what if he couldn't finish off a sentence ?
I'd also be very careful about making fun of someone's age and possible physical shortcomings. We're not exactly young anymore and this may well face us one day....

Can't even ride a bike?

Come on Katie, unless you're from Holland, that may well apply to most of the human race !

Who would vote for Joe Biden?

Evidently, a lot of people did. Just as loads of people voted for Donald 4 years previous.

Does everyone know how much inflation has cost people? I'm spending about $80 more per week at the grocery store for the SAME STUFF!!

That's got little to do with the prez, if anything at all. Many parts of the world are experiencing this mystery illness called inflation ! Our prices here have been like that as far back as during the 2020 lockdown. I remember saying to my wife that the covid scenario was a golden opportunity for a whole load of businesses to put up their prices and blame covid. And looky-looky what happened !

Did Manson participate in killing Shorty?

Yes. And in George Stimson's book, he explains his involvement, admits he forced Bruce to wield the knife, and, as ever, puts the blame on Shorty, so that he doesn't have to face up to having actually killed a person outside of self-defence, just like he does with Lotsapoppa and Gary Hinman.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said:

I'm gonna paraphrase this quote because I don't remember it exactly (off the top of my head), and I can't find it anywhere online at the moment, but Manson did say this (essentially):

"Bugliosi has great intellect, he has charm, he has great education, he has great delivery.... but he doesn't have a case". "He's got everything but a case".

The statement is "Mr Bugliosi is a hard-driving prosecutor, polished education, words, semantics. He is a genius. He has got everything that every lawyer would want to have, except one thing: a case. he doesn't have a case. Were I allowed to defend myself, I could have proven this to you. I could have called witnesses and showed you how these things lay, and I could have presented my picture." and it comes from Manson's lengthy statement in court during the trial.

katie8753 said...

Grim said:

Even assuming that this was true, so what if he couldn't finish off a sentence ?
I'd also be very careful about making fun of someone's age and possible physical shortcomings. We're not exactly young anymore and this may well face us one day....

I'm definitely not making fun of him. His condition is very serious and there's nothing funny about it. Alzheimer's or dementia is a serious medical condition. And I know he has one or the other because I've seen it with my own mother. It's gradual and it just gets worse with time. Not being able to concentrate enough to finish a sentence is just one of the symptoms. Instead of pushing Biden to run for re-election they should find another candidate to run and let Joe just relax for the rest of his time on earth. What's wrong with Kennedy Jr?

That's got little to do with the prez, if anything at all.

Well all I know is what I've experienced. When Trump was in office things cost a lot less. Now in the last 2 years everything has just gone up in price. Especially gasoline, which is a result of Biden shutting down certain refineries and buying foreign oil. I agree, Covid did a lot of damage, but that's not the only thing that made prices go up.

beauders said...

Grim, we only have 4 soap opera's in the US and one is only online. They shutdown the really good ones for cooking and talk shows. Prices have gone up because we need to pay for all the freebies everyone got during covid, Katie. It doesn't matter who the president is.

katie8753 said...

Beauders, Shutting down American refineries + buying foreign oil = higher gas prices at the pump. And Biden did that.

The cost of everything has gone up. Houses, cars, groceries, clothing, furniture, rent, gasoline, car repair services, plumbing services, electrical services, tree trimming, pest control, etc., etc.

Maybe some of that has to do with Covid, but isn't it really coincidental that it all has occurred since Biden took office in 2021?

beauders said...

Katie, I am not saying these raises in price is legitimate. Business owners are all getting on the bandwagon and upping their prices because they can get away with it. From what I understand shutting down the refineries is because of this blasting heat we are all dealing with this summer. Hopefully, the prices will go down in the Fall. Everything has gone up for me too and it is not nice. I do think the economy would be the same if we had a republican president.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said:

Covid did a lot of damage, but that's not the only thing that made prices go up

I wasn't arguing that covid made things go up. I was saying that business owners saw it as a seemingly watertight excuse to put prices up and they could then say "well, it's down to covid and supply chains." Like I noticed, about 6 months into Russia invading Ukraine, here in England it was suddenly on the lips of every Conservative MP that the higher fuel prices were due to "Putin invading Ukraine." Every one. But the fuel prices here have been going up and up and up since at least 2003.
I don't waste my time blaming Prime Ministers {or presidents} or parties I don't like or wouldn't vote for. Unless they are directly culpable economically, like Liz Truss was.

The cost of everything has gone up. Houses, cars, groceries, clothing, furniture, rent, gasoline, car repair services, plumbing services, electrical services, tree trimming, pest control, etc., etc

The cost of everything nearly always goes up. To put it another way, when can you recall substantial drops in prices that lasted for years ?

but isn't it really coincidental that it all has occurred since Biden took office in 2021?

Not really. Price fluctuation doesn't neatly span a person's time in office. Some prices, even in the USA, had been rising long before the 2020 election.

Dilligaf said...

Well, I am as surprised as anyone that I am jumping into this discussion, as I avoid such topics like the plague. However, as the saying goes, everyone has an opinion, and they all stink, so here goes.

To think that the economy, good or bad, operates without input from the President is foolish. A President’s actions, whether by Executive Action, or simply by commentary, will have a direct result. The release of petroleum from the Strategic Reserve, had a direct impact on gas, but rather longer term than short term. Such an act caused market prices to change, signaled weakness to our petroleum competitors, as well our global enemies.

In California, there are two areas for refining oil, Martinez and Los Angeles. State politicians have killed the expansion of new refineries for decades, while placing greater environmental restrictions and requirements on the exiting ones. Petroleum does not fit into the electric vision that California Liberals foolishly push on a short time frame. This has resulted in gas costs higher than 48 other states.

In business, fuel prices result in higher costs every step in the economic chain. From the source of origin , to the manufacturer, to the wholesaler, to the retailer, each one add’s cost to the final price, with the consumer paying the total increase. Is this gouging? No. It is the cost of doing business. Is it unfair? That is for each of you to decide, but everyone has a right to make a profit.

When policies/legislation impact business, and the consumer, negatively, then it is incumbent on the voter to make the change. Either by the ballot box, or by direct action. The choice is yours..

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders. Biden shut down the refineries when he first took office back in January of 2021. It wasn't hot then.

BUT...I agree that business owners took advantage of Covid because they could. But I don't think that affected gasoline prices at the pump. I think that was a direct result of Biden's actions.

What do you think about Eric's outburst today at Ridge? Are they playing up to some kind of age-related memory loss? Eric was mad because Ridge threw out his stapler because it was "old and useless". I think Eric is feeling old and useless.

Grim said:

The cost of everything nearly always goes up. To put it another way, when can you recall substantial drops in prices that lasted for years?

Good point Grim!

katie8753 said...

Dill good to see you!!! What do you think about the Fulton County, GA charges against Trump? I know you like to keep out of the discussion when "you know who" is around.

I forgot about the Strategic Reserve. Biden pretty much used that up.

I don't know a lot about oil and gas, except when we buy it from foreign oil companies, it costs a lot more than drilling it here in the U.S. And we've got a LOT of reserves here in the U.S. Even in CA.

Dilligaf said...

I cannot speak to the motivations of the Fulton County DA, and why she has taken the course she has. Nor can I speak to the specifics legal requirements for charges in GA. as they vary state by state. However, I do believe that the alleged RICO charge is a bit of a stretch, especially in a state case. I think that if that charge can be addressed successfully, or dismissed via motions, the remaining charges become very weak.

Given the number of defendants in this case, as well as the number of counsel representing, and their ability to avail themselves to the rights provided for their clients, I would not expect Trump’s Georgia case to actually begin until well after the 2024 election. Now, does this case rise to the level of Election Interference? I think that given the number of indictments coming down (4), in a very short time frame, that argument could be made. Maybe not in a court of law, but in a court of public opinion, and let’s face it, in an election, the appearance of unfairness can swing an election.

I am definitely stocking up with popcorn…

katie8753 said...

Thanks Dill. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

If Trump is so dangerous why didn't they indict him in 2021? Does it take 2 years to indict people?

beauders said...

Katie, I think Eric is having trouble in the bedroom again. Maybe Donna is not doing it for him any longer.

Dilligaf said...


You ask why Trump was not indicted in ‘21. Simple, the upcoming election was too far away….

katie8753 said...

Beauders the last time I saw Donna was when she gave that stupid Mermaid party for Beth. When Eric had that melt-down in his office about the stapler, I figured they were writing some "aging issues" in for Eric, since he feels like he's not appreciated anymore, everyone is in his office except him, no one is good enough to run the company but him, and they threw away his stapler. I guess we'll see what happens next week.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Dill. That's what I thought. BTW, that mugshot is AWESOME! Hoo hoo!

katie8753 said...

Yeah Grim I agree. Manson's mugshot Rocks! Trump's is in the running though!

beauders said...

Trump looks like a three year old who had his toy and lollipop taken away. Don't worry Katie, Trump will most likely get away with all his issues.

Matt said...

Do I think Trump belongs in prison over this situation?

I think Trump exercised poor judgement. I think Trump is an extremist. His use of "social media" is unprofessional and detrimental to himself, and arguably others. But as of now, I don't think he belongs in jail. He probably belongs on a psychiatrist's couch, but not jail. (In his mind, I think he truly believed that the election had been stolen.

5 people died

Dilligaf said...

One at the hands of LE, and none directly, or indirectly, by the actions of Trump. The saga of January 6 is far from being over…

katie8753 said...

Right on Dill!

Matt, why do you leave all those spaces?

Trump looks like a three year old who had his toy and lollipop taken away. Don't worry Katie, Trump will most likely get away with all his issues.

Thanks Beauders. I don't know if Trump will "get away with all his issues", because Biden's DOJ is after him with everything they've got. Which is called "election interference".

They want to make sure that he's too busy to campaign because of the trial dates. I never saw anything like this in my life. And I've lived a long time!

Back to B&B. Why is Eric sitting on the couch with RJ for so long saying "draw this and draw that", then clutching that stupid blue ball.

And WHY did Ridge and Carter suddenly go against Deacon looking for Sheila? Makes No Sense!

katie8753 said...

Mitch McConnell is having some serious health issues and in my opinion should step down from his position in the Senate. He's another octogenarian who needs to just retire and enjoy the rest of his life in peace and quiet.

You know, Trump is pushing 80 too, and even though he doesn't appear to have any cognitive issues at present, who knows what will happen in the next 4 years?

We need to get some younger people in office. I'm thinking of voting for DeSantis for the Republican nominee this time. I like Trump, I voted for him twice, but I'm ready to move on. I'm tired of all the drama!

We need to stop all this fighting amongst each other and do what's best for this country!

Dilligaf said...

Well, you are correct about a person’s age and their cognitive ability to serve. I think that the country is finally beginning to recognize that with recent events with McConnell, Biden, Feinstein, Pelosi, and even as far back as Harry Reid. The danger is how a standard is created, and implemented, for which age can become a reason to prevent an elder person from serving.

grimtraveller said...

Whatever happened to the good old days when old dudes like Don and Joey retired at 65-ish and saw out the rest of their days having fun, playing golf, telling the grandkids and great-grandkids stories of the old days and shouting at neighbourhood kids to get off their lawns ? 😃

There again, maybe being and running for president is their retirement fun ! 🥸

beauders said...

Katie, I think you all should vote for Trump. I think he's a jerk and isn't good for the country. DeSantis is a nightmare. He has quite the witch hunt going on in Florida against gay people and I think he wants spread it all over the country. I think the next election (2028) will be the one that will feature DeSantis and Newsom. At least we don't live in Uganda they just sentenced someone to die for being gay.

beauders said...

As for McConnell he may be having mini strokes, that's how people behave when they start having them. This can change quickly to full blown strokes so he should make sure he knows what is going on. As for Eric, I guess he has arthritis.

Dilligaf said...


At the risk of delving too deep into politics, exactly what witch hunt has DeSantis engaged in against the gay community? The whole “”don’t say gay” lie that the media has actively spread? If that is what you are referring to, I would love to see the proof. It is said that so many well meaning people buy into things that little reality in them.

beauders said...

DeSantis has done the following to the LGBTQ+ community in Florida
Ban on Gender Affirming Care for young people
Restrictions on Gender Affirming Care for adults
Banning Trans people from using facilities matching gender identities
Expansion of "Don't Say Gay" Law
He passed a bill legalizing anti LGBTQ+ Medical discrimination

Dilligaf said...

So, he has stopped the physical mutilation of young people who lack mental capacity. Sounds like he is protecting kids. Why do Trans supporters believe that parents have no rights in regards to their own kids? How presumptuous to believe that personnel from government run schools know better.

What restrictions has he placed on adults?

He has protected women from having males using women’s restrooms, and vice versa. Protecting them is a bad thing?

There is no “Don’t Say Gay” law. That is a term his opponents have made up.

Medical discrimination? How so? Do you mean he would deny them life saving measures?

It sounds like DeSantis is representing the vast majority of his state, how is that a bad thing?
It is said that 65% of all Americans believe in only two genders, and along party lines, 90% of Republicans, 66% of Independents , and 44% of Democrats believe this way. Even Gays do not agree on transgender issues.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I know Eric said he has arthritis, but how can he squeeze a ball and not hold a pencil? And if Steffy and Finn are so worried about Sheila, how come their door isn't locked? Makes no sense.

I figured McConnell was having mini strokes. He has a minute or two that he can't speak for whatever reason. I think he should just retire. We need our governmental leaders to be able to make snap decisions at the drop of a hat. And McConnell and Biden aren't capable of that.

Speaking of DeSantis, according to you targeting trans people, what's the difference between trans people and gay people? I know that not all gay people are trans, and not all trans people are gay. So what's the difference? I'm just trying to understand something I don't understand.

It's my opinion that biological males should not be on women's sports teams. It's unfair because biological men have more muscle mass and bone structure, they're taller and they're much stronger. It's just a biological fact! And it's not fair! Even Kaitlyn Jenner says that.

My solution for that is have the biological males who transgender to whatever, compete against each other! That solves it and makes it much more fair.

Same thing with using the bathroom. Biological males should not be allowed to use the women's restroom. I say that for 2 reasons. First of all, I don't want to go into a public restroom and see some guy unzip! More importantly, if I had a little granddaughter that I was taking to the restroom, I would hate to think there was some perv peeking thru the cracks and flogging his log. Because men never forget about their logs! No matter who they claim to be!

I can't imagine a biological woman wanting to go to the men's room. Have you ever been in there? It's disgusting! They have urinals for the "#1" and potties for the "#2" and a woman would have to wait on the potty because she can't use the urinal because she doesn't have an "extension", and the wait on the potty is pretty long.

Lastly, I don't think children under the age of puberty would have any idea about any kind of sexuality and any inkling about changing genders. So let's say children under the age of 12 are off limits on this stuff. 12 and over are different, and they may have more of an understanding of what's going on with their bodies.

BUT...I absolutely don't think that parents should be cut out of the loop if the child decides he/she wants to talk about "gender affirming care".

katie8753 said...

And Beauders I know they're classifying abortion under "women's health rights". Abortion is mean, ugly, destructive and murder. Life begins at conception. Don't be fooled by abortion. It's one of the ugliest medical procedures ever thought of. And now, that abortion has become illegal in so many states, the remaining states that provide abortion have become more brutal in the ops. I know this for a fact. I won't post it here, but I can e-mail you how I know.

katie8753 said...

What's the “Don’t Say Gay” law? I'm not familiar with that term.

katie8753 said...

It's almost time for the Beverly Hillbillies. I'm trying to remember what it was like to live in a time it was fun to be alive. It's not fun anymore. Sharon Tate was on that sitcom.

After that I'm toast.

Night y'all!

beauders said...

The "Don't Say Gay" is a bill that DeSantis got passed in law in Florida. The bill states that "classroom instruction by school personal or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur. This means that a teacher can be sued for teaching the history of same sex marriage and the history of the AIDS epidemic. If I had one person say hey it gets better or say anything positive about being gay, I might not have wanted to die every single day in high school, because of something I thought was a phase that never went away. That's what laws like this do, they tell gay students that they shouldn't exist and if you are gay, you are less than straight people. Gay/Transgender teenagers kill themselves everyday because they feel they are alone. I was not alone in being suicidal, everyone I know who was LGBTQ+ considered suicide as an option. I have known gay people who have killed themselves. I didn't understand how big a group 2% of the population is. I grew up about 40 minutes south of San Francisco and remember the older brothers of my friends would go into San Francisco on the weekends to beat up guys coming out of the bars, they were proud of this and bragged about this behavior. If I had such a hard time growing up gay, I can only imagine what it for transgender. I've had five female friends go for gender reassignment and one male friend. Not everyone in the gay community likes the transgender movement because it's taking away a lot of people away from our community and dividing us even more. A lot of lesbians wonder why these women just can't be butch, why do they have to become male? There have always been butch women, just live with it.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I don't understand that at all.

But I love you as a friend on this blog. It's late here, time for bed. I give you a BIG HUG from me to you. I'm not gay, but I want you to know that I love you and I consider you an important member of this blog!

If I may ask, what makes people think they're gay or transgender? I don't understand that stuff at all.

Sleep tight baby doll!

beauders said...

All I can say Katie is every feeling you have for men as a straight woman is the same for me but I feel it only towards women. I liked girls as a teenager and now I feel it for adult women. I have never felt any romantic feelings for males. Before 6th grade all my friends were boys after 6th grade all my friendships were with girls and they were very intense. I am not transgender but from what I've heard is that all transgender people as young children feel they are in the wrong body and it only intensifies as the child ages. I would recommend looking up Jazz Jennings as a typical transgender person. She was born a boy but from the moment she could speak, all she talked about was when would she be changed to being a girl, this is what she was saying at age 2. She is not offensive and she is bright (She's a student at Harvard). She has had her own reality show, her parents are supportive. She has had all the surgeries to make her body look female and that is not easy she has suffered a lot of physical and mental pain. Don't think I feel sorry for myself, I don't I am happy with who I am. Living in Oregon and California is good as there are lots LGBTQ+ people here but there is still a lot hate out there for us. Uganda is really going kill someone for being gay and one of the guys in Uganda is a man named Scott Lively, who tried everything he could to make Oregon homophobic but it didn't work. His group the Oregon's Citizen Alliance was sued out of existence because they threw a photographer down a flight of stairs outside a church they were having a meeting at. This was because she was gay. These people have moved onto greener pastures and are in Africa now pushing hate.

katie8753 said...

I don't know why people spend so much time and energy hating people. What a waste of time!

katie8753 said...

I like this song. I hope it helps people come together.

Love y'all!

beauders said...

Katie, there are a lot of people out there who live to make others miserable.

Dilligaf said...

Yes, they are usually called Divorce Attorney’s….

beauders said...

Yes, some are divorce attorney's Dil.

katie8753 said...

Hey Beauders did you catch B&B today? Finn is so "dead set" on getting rid of Sheila but when she barges in today and starts her "Finn whispering" he suddenly turns mute. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the writers of this show are women. Because in real life, Finn would have been throwing a fit, but he just melts into a stone-faced mute. And how does she keep getting in their house? Don't they lock the doors?

BTW would you vote for Biden if he runs again, or is there another Democratic candidate you would support? Just wondering.

beauders said...

If there no one else I would have to vote for Biden because I don't want Trump and I don't want DeSantis. The next election will be more exciting, I believe it will be Newson and DeSantis.

beauders said...

I looked up the who writes for B&B and there are ten writers, seven men and three women. I think they all know they are writing for women viewers.

katie8753 said...

Wow that amazes me. 7 men writers and 3 women writers? Today on the show, Bill was talking to Liam and said something like "Steffy still holds your heart?" or something stupid like that. Dollar Bill would not talk like that in real life.

This thing with Eric is weird. He whines that he can't draw anymore, but he can still play the piano??? How do you play the piano with arthritis so bad you can't draw??

katie8753 said...

Has anybody heard how Horse-Teeth is doing? She kinda dropped off the radar.

beauders said...

Katie, you cannot call her horse teeth anymore remember she got new dentures. LOL. I haven't heard anything which is probably the plan. What were you doing when you first saw what was happening on 09/11/2001 Katie? I think 09/11 should another Memorial Day for civilians.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I have a whole new paragraph to write about 9/11. I'll write it tomorrow. It's bedtime here.

And yes I can't call her "horse-teeth" now because she got some new choppers. LOL.

See ya tomorrow!

katie8753 said...

September 11, 2001 started out just like any other day. I drove to the office in the morning traffic and got there around 8:00am. I was in the kitchen making coffee and the receptionist hung up the phone and said "Sam just called and said a plane hit the World Trade Center". I said "why"? She said "I don't know". A few minutes later the phone rang again. The receptionist said "now another plane hit the other tower".

I ran into my office intending to call someone but I couldn't think of anyone to call. Phone rang again. "Now a plane has hit the Pentagon". One of my co workers ran down the stairs to the first floor. He said "I've gotta go. My brother works at the Pentagon".

The receptionist then said "the FAA has ordered all airplanes in the U.S. airspace to land immediately or they will be shot down".

It finally occurred to me. The U.S. is under attack!!

Our office was very close to the airport and we looked out the window and saw plane after plane after plane land at the airport.

My first thought was I need to go get my kids out of school and make sure they're safe. I told the receptionist I was going to do that and she said "they're asking people to stay inside and not panic. You and your kids are safer just staying put for now".

All the rest of the day I got phone call after phone call from people I hadn't seen in years, including old boyfriends. People felt the need to reach out and reassure.

I tried calling my relatives but it was hard to get a line through. They were all jammed with people calling.

That was a very sad day, and a very scary day because we didn't have all the facts. We didn't know who was doing this.

In the days following 9/11 I noticed that people weren't going out much. I think it took a couple of months before people felt safe enough to go out to eat, go to the movies, etc.

beauders said...

On the morning of 9/11 I got up two hours before work. I wrote for an hour most mornings and watched repeats of Knots Landing. I turned on my tv and saw something was going on in Manhattan. So, I started watching and realized that something had happened to the Trade Towers, they had collapsed. The tv was repeatedly showed airplanes flying into the buildings. I knew the US was hated in certain countries but I never expected to see what I was seeing. My friend Andrea had just moved to upstate NY, so I called her. She didn't answer and I assumed she was in bed because she was waitress and had worked the night before. I said loudly if you're listening to me get up and turn on your tv something terrible is going on in Manhattan. About fifteen minutes later she called me in shock. She had as a teenager delivered mail in those buildings. After I got off the phone, I went to work, we had the tv on in the office all day and then that night I watched coverage. Eventually, I had the smart idea to go to New York to visit Andrea during my Christmas break. I knew the prices on flights would be down in price and the skies would probably be safer than anything in the past. That was dumb, I have OCD and I was terrified the whole time.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I didn't have the courage to get on a plane again for 2 years.

Every September 11th, they have a ceremony to remember the victims of that terrible day. They talk a lot about the people who worked in the buildings and the fire fighters and first responders who lost their lives trying to save other people.

I hope they also include all of the passengers on those planes who flew into the towers and the Pentagon, and especially the brave passengers who confronted the terrorists and made the plane crash in PA.

Those poor people must have been terrified to see their planes were flying right into buildings. I can only hope they died instantly and didn't suffer. Those were just people who boarded a plane to reach a destination, either for work or vacation, etc.

beauders said...

I think the hijack victims died instantly, but the build up from the time they took over the planes and hitting the buildings must have been terrifying. There were mothers with infants on those planes, and those mothers, like Sharon Tate must have been going out of their minds. Being in the buildings must have been scary as well. Did you know in the second building, they told the people to go back to their offices? They thought there would be too many people outside and in front of the buildings. I would have left, with my bad knees, stairs are not my friends, so I may not have made it out. My mother said she would have stayed and followed directions and died. I guess I'm a rebel LOL. Horrible day.

katie8753 said...

Beauders since there's no episode description available for B&B, I'll fill one in:

Eric continues to act like a big baby about his "pencil useless hand", then turns around and plays the piano.

Brooke looks stupid and uncomfortable in her loud suit with a too short skirt.

RJ gets to draw lines on a picture and call it "designing".

Ridge works for 2 seconds, then goofs off with Brooke and Thomas for 15 minutes.

2 unknown "models" get to say lines.

Tune in tomorrow for more of the same.

beauders said...

Too bad no one shot and killed the escaped prisoner in Pennsylvania, who was on the run for thirteen. Not only did he stab his former girlfriend to death in front of her two young children, he stabbed her thirty-three times. Those children not only saw it all they must have been covered in her blood.

katie8753 said...

I watched a movie on You Tube tonight called The Haunting of Sharon Tate. It kind of reminded me of the "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood" movie. It not only had an alternate ending, it was completely fictious of the whole story. Except for a few pictures that resonated true, the rest was hogwash.

Steven Parent was the "caretaker" and instead of living in the guest house, he lived in a "trailer" on the grounds.

Jay Sebring was about 6' tall.

Hillary Duff plays Sharon Tate and the night before the murders she has a dream about them all being killed. But the next night when the killers showed up, she had some kind of knife that she stabbed Tex with and all was well after that.

Also, there was some kind of "8-track cassette player" in some kind of room in the house (it never said which room) that had a tape of Charlie singing "Never Learn Not to Love" or whatever the hell that stupid song is called and it kept "kater-walling" through the night, coming on by itself.

I think the theme of the movie was that Gibby, Voytek & Roman were trying to drive Sharon crazy.

Anyway, someone else can watch this garbage and see what you think.

beauders said...

Katie, of course Brooke walked in on Hope and Thomas.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I knew that was gonna happen. And where do these people get off having sex at the office? Truly, NOBODY works around that place!!

And Eric's living room looks like an old dress maker's basement, with all those half clothed mannequins scattered around the room. All that's missing is an old Singer sewing machine. LOL.

beauders said...

We once had an employee have sex at the candy factory. We know this because we found his underwear under a 100 pound bag of sugar, yuck.

katie8753 said...

EWWWWW! Dirty underwear adds a lot of "sugar" to candy. HA HA HA!!!

beauders said...

It was disgusting but he was humiliated when my sister returned them to him, but this was not the grossest thing I saw in the candy world. Some day when I feel brave I'll let you all know.

beauders said...

Katie, the woman who plays Steffie just gave birth to her fourth son, no daughters. You have sons right, how many do you have?

katie8753 said...

Steffy was pregnant? I guess they made up that story about her going to Europe to "think" so she could have maternity leave.

I have 2 sons, no daughters. But I do have a beautiful daughter in law and will have another one next year.

Who is that Luna character on B&B? And who is that guy Deacon was talking to in his restaurant on Friday?

beauders said...

I think the guy Deacan was at the restaurant with a judge but I don't know for sure. I don't know who Luna is but maybe she's going to keep Finn busy.

katie8753 said...

I read somewhere that Roman Polanski's wife is trying to get America to let him back in.

Beauders, why is Ridge wearing glasses? Is he trying to look smart? He just looks dumb. And why does Brooke's jacket have writing all over it? And why did Deacon tell Sheila to get out last Friday, and now he's trying to get her to stay? He's dumb too.

Dilligaf said...

I think America will let him back in a heartbeat. I just don’t think that Polanski would like the welcoming party….

beauders said...

Katie, Ridge does look dumb in glasses but Brookes jacket is really dumb. Deacon is in love with Sheila and is waffling.

katie8753 said...

Dill who is the welcoming party? I think he got a raw deal last go around.

Beauders, was Brooke's jacket Eric's new "creative design"?

Last week Deacon wants Sheila gone to hide her from Hope, and this week Deacon wants Sheila to marry him? WUFT?

Dilligaf said...

The welcoming party would be the LAPD taking him in to custody at LAX. I do not believe that Polanski received a raw deal, his evaluation would not count as time served for anyone else. A judge has the authority to override any agreement reached between a DA’s office, and defense counsel, if it is believed that an agreement does not meet the needs of justice, and society.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Dill. I didn't know that. Roman has always said that the judge lied and double crossed him. He's definitely a scumbag.

Instead of flying into LAX he should just come up through Mexico, pretend to be from Venezuela and cross over at Eagle Pass, TX. He'd get bussed up to NY and get a free I-Phone and hotel room. LOL.

beauders said...

Katie, wouldn't it be interesting if Hope stole Finn away from Steffie. I have a feeling that Finn is not going to be alone long, Steffie better look out.

katie8753 said...

Yeah Beauders I was thinking that today. Hope seems really taken with Finn. That's Steffie's fault. She's the one who split. I'd like to see Finn & Thomas square off. I think Finn could flatten Thomas.

BTW, Finn is on the new Liberty Mutual TV ad.

Deacon & Sheila are making me sick, but not as sick as Eric is making me with his "blood hawking". YUCK!

beauders said...

Yes Katie when you hawk up blood its time to go to the hospital.

katie8753 said...

I just wanta rock your soul...

I tried to post about this Jihad war on the U.S. tomorrow being Friday the 13th, but I wasn't allowed.

Stay safe y'all!

katie8753 said...

Find it for yourselves.

katie8753 said...

Not even a firecracker. That's good.

Beauders, how can Li tell people where to work? And isn't she a doctor? Doesn't she have patients to take care of? How does she have time to go to Forrester every day?

And speaking of doctors, why does Finn have 24/7 to goof off, except occasionally getting a text about a patient.

katie8753 said...

Well it looks like Sheila is working at the only Restaurant in LA. And I guess she doesn't know that "the customer is always right!" LOL.

beauders said...

Wyatt is out at B&B. The thing I've noticed about B&B is everyone is involved in everyone else's business. The actress who played Quinn on B&B is now on General Hospital playing Lois a very opinionated New Yorker. Another reason to give up B&B and move to General Hospital, Katie.

katie8753 said...

I've got my TV set to change the channel to General Hospital today at 3pm.

beauders said...

It's a great soap Katie, I think you will like it. It is traditional like As The World Turns.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders. I watched it yesterday. It takes a while to get interested in a new soap opera. I saw Quinn. I also saw a guy on there that I think was on As The World Turns. I can't remember his name.

Can you tell me one thing. What is it that Eric's dying from? The "Doctor" never really said.

beauders said...

I have no idea what is wrong with Eric but it must be serious as he only 6 months to live. Did you see the guy that played Paul Ryan, the son of Barbara Ryan and the villain James Stenback? You will see a lot of familiar faces.

beauders said...

Katie, I hope Lauren Fenmore and Sheila meet up. Sheila has tortured Lauren for a long time and they are arch rivals, and Lauren deserved the torture.

katie8753 said...

Yeah I think it was Paul Ryan. Or maybe Tom Hughes. It was a guy who played a cop.

Eric evidently has the disease that causes your hand not to work and makes you cough. Whatever that is.

They need to bring back Sheila. She's way more interesting.

And who is that stupid lady who is trying to hook up with Charlie? I thought Charlie was married to Stephanie's sister.

katie8753 said...

I was watching a show the other day that said that Charles Manson went to college. HA HA HA!!!

beauders said...

I don't think they are married and that is Esther, a character on the Young and the Restless. She is harmless. The guy that played Tom Hughes isn't on this soap. Maybe Charlie went to a college in a cage, to show him off to the criminology students.

beauders said...

Hey Katie are you out there? Are you still watching General Hospital?

katie8753 said...

Yeah I'm here Beauders. Haven't watched General Hospital yet. Had company last week, a lot going on, yada yada yada. Will try and watch it this week.

Okay stupidest thing about B&B yet. They finally found the STAPLER!! And they went on and on about how Stephanie bought Eric that stapler when they started the company and how important it is to Eric because it was the first thing they bought and it has his initials on it.

Why would a stapler be the first thing they bought to start a dress shop? Did they staple the dresses together??? HA HA.

katie8753 said...

I just read in the National Enquirer that Lawrence Taylor (an attorney involved in the Manson trial) shot his 75 year old wife and then turned the gun on himself. The article suggests that Manson is still wreaking havoc on people from the grave.

beauders said...

Yes, Katie all is right in the world Eric is reunited with his stapler.

katie8753 said...

Yes Eric and his stapler will live happily ever after!

Well Thomas & Hope tried getting it on in the office again. These people need to get a room. I guess they don't have an Employee Handbook that has rules of conduct. LOL.

starviego said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
starviego said...

"Taylor (an attorney involved in the Manson trial)"

He is described as only having been a 'legal advisor to the judge' during the Manson trial. What kind of position is that? Is that an official position or some informal title? Why would the judge need a 'legal advisor?'

Anyway, this is the first time I've heard this name as being associated with the case.

Thanks Katie for the heads up.

katie8753 said...

Yeah Starviego I didn't recognize his name either and I was thinking the same thing. I didn't know judges needed "legal advice".

But it was in the National Enquirer so go figure.

starviego said...

Lawrence E. Taylor was born in 1942, so would only have been about 28 in 1970. He graduated law school in 1969, and he didn't pass the bar until 1970.
He served as a Deputy District Attorney for Los Angeles County from 1970 to 1971 and as a Deputy Public Defender from 1971 to 1972

So what was this cherry lawyer doing 'advising' a much more experienced judge? I suspect Taylor's real job was to be a 'go-between' between the DA's office and Judge Older, who might have been colluding on how they would cook the defendants' goose. IF Taylor was working for the DA at the same time he was 'advising' the judge, then it would have been a gross conflict of interest, at the very least.

starviego said...

Murder cases like the judge's are pretty 'cut and dried' to homicide investigators. So why are they still investigating it?
The medical examiner's office ruled Judy's death as a murder and Taylor's a suicide, prompting officers to probe the deaths as an apparent murder-suicide case. ...
While the motive behind the shooting is currently unclear, the medical examiner's office has decided to conduct an independent investigation into the deaths.
Police are reportedly urging anyone with information about the incident to come forward and contact Homicide Detectives ....

starviego said...

On the other hand, it is possible Taylor was just a clerk for Judge Older, in the same way Supreme Court Justices hire 'clerks' from top law schools to do research and other functions.

Though then Taylor would be padding his resume by calling himself an 'advisor' instead of a clerk.

katie8753 said...

Wow thanks for researching that Starviego. I wonder what happened to make him snap if he did shoot his wife and then himself.


katie8753 said...

I was watching a show about Jeffrey MacDonald the other day. I don't know if everyone knows who he is, but he was an enlisted doctor whose wife and children were stabbed to death in their apartment. He said there were 3 hippy men and a woman with a long blond wig that was chanting "Acid is groovy, kill the pigs". He had injuries but he survived. The police figured since he was a doctor he could inflict injuries upon himself that were not life threatening.

This happened in February of 1970, and the police believed that he made up that story about hippies because he heard about the Manson murders and was trying to blame it on "Charlie's followers".

He was convicted of the murders and still says he didn't do it, the hippies did.

katie8753 said...

Hey Lynyrd check your email.

sunset77 said...

I know who Jeffery MacDonald is, he's in a prison about 20 miles down the road from me.

Jeffrey Robert MacDonald

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset. I'm going to watch some more videos about this guy. He swears he's innocent but the facts don't support that. Has anyone offered a motive in this case? Was he seeing another woman? For a guy to just brutally murder his pregnant wife and 2 kids for no reason at all seems unlikely.

But it does seem odd that these murders took place only a few months after the TLB murders, he claims it was hippies who were chanting "kill the pigs" and he survived his injuries, while his wife and children had much more injuries than he did.

That just doesn't add up. Reminds me of the Chris Watts case.

katie8753 said...

Okay I just watched "Enter the Dragon" from 1973. Which of course starred Bruce Lee.

If Bruce Lee had been training Jay Sebring to perform Karate, how come Susan Atkins was able to get him out of that room with Sharon Tate?

I know that Tex had a gun, but he should have been able to way-lay these folks somehow.

Just sayin'.

katie8753 said...

Beauders it looks like Dollar Bill is gonna be the father of Luna. Haven't they done that plot point a million times? First Liam, then Wyatt, now Luna?

beauders said...

Wow I just wasted an hour watching clipped together episodes of B&B. They should have just played repeats. The first episode was annoying because it was all about Brooke and Ridges "wonderful love." Uck. Fridays episode must have been a fantasy because people were not acting like themselves. I mean Hope was hanging all over Liam and then Liam told Finn, he was happy Finn was part of the family.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I lucked out. Here on Friday they interrupted the regularly scheduled CBS programming for College Football. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Another Saturday night and I ain't got nobody.

And You're welcome!

beauders said...

Pretty bad Katie when it's better that B&B be preempted instead of the watching the garbage they put out. Why do I watch B&B? I like some of the characters.

katie8753 said...

Beauders, Barbara from ATWT is on The Young and The Restless, and she's killing people.

beauders said...

Katie, she's a great actress.

beauders said...

Ok Katie, Donna is my favorite Logan sister, but if I passed out and was only given six months to live, Donna would be last person I would want making decisions for me. Eric has her brainwashed into doing only what he wants. She should have called for an ambulance. Do you think she is smart enough to be able to dial 911? LOL. This Eric is dying in six months is already getting old. Somehow Finn or Li will save him at the last minute anyway.
I saw on Instagram that the "wires" at Jay Sebring's house were cut the night before, the night before? Has anyone heard anything about this? The person in Instagram was implying that the murders were supposed to happen at Sebring's house and that Jay, Sharon, Voytek, and Abigail were all Sebring's house that night. I have never read this before and I've been researching this case since the 25th anniversary. I was half asleep when I read this and didn't get any specifics about who was saying this and any evidence they might have presented.

katie8753 said...

Yeah they're dragging this "Eric is dying" stuff way too long. They never even said what he's dying from. Donna's too stupid to take care of any kind of emergency.

I never heard about the wires being cut at Sebring's house. Would that be on Thursday? I think on Thursday Sharon went to dinner at a friend's house. A long time ago The Col put up what everyone was doing that week on his blog. I'll see if I can find that.

Has anyone else heard about this?

beauders said...

Katie it's on facebook. I googled the phrase, "were the wires Jay Sebring's house cut the night before the Tate murders."

katie8753 said...

I found a You Tube video of some people talking about this case and showing police interviews with a guy who said he installed some new wiring on Sebring's house for cable TV and some other control devices and Sebring called him a couple of days before the murders and said the system wasn't working and wanted him to come over and fix it. He said he couldn't make it. He said in the interview that he inspected Sebring's property on August 14th I think he said and he saw that the wiring had been cut in the yard.

Also there's an interview with Sebring's butler and he said the Sharon, Abigail & Voytek were at Jay's house on Thursday night. I don't know if that's true or not.

The Cut Wires at Sebring’s (

katie8753 said...

Well Eric is lying on his "deathbed" and Finn has been pounding away at his computer keyboard searching desperately for a cure to a "fatal condition" that doesn't even seem to have a name.

I think I'll give it a made up name, like the 3 Stooges would do.

I diagnose him with a bad case of Dapapalmaseenadeeyun. The magic treatment includes using a Homalacktometer, a Hammerdeenaseenapharen, large amounts of Sulphadeemus and a Piddledithatar. And of course, it needs to be followed up with Anacanapanasan.

If all that fails, then a head transplant is indicated. HA HA HA!!

beauders said...

testing my computer

beauders said...

Ok my friends I have been in a hospital for the last month. Now I am in a recovery facility. It started with a fall on my right knee, a trip to the hospital in an ambulance. Then I went into kidney failure and my family was told I was close to death. When I survived they did a cat scan on me and found a few spots on my liver, so they did a biopsi, which showed I have cancer in my liver and breast cancer. I have 4th stage cancer and I am terminal. The oncologist said I could die in a month or three years, or indefinitely. I'm in shock so please if you're religious please pray for me. I'm strong and I want to live, as long as possible.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I'm so sorry to hear all that. I was wondering if you were okay since we didn't talk for a long while.

I will definitely be praying for you. Are you still in the hospital or are you at home now? I hope you're at home and can be more comfortable.

Dilligaf said...

Beauders, you are in our prayers. Though I have lost family members to cancer, I cannot begin to imagine the emotions you are going through. Regardless of the end, know that your presence here will always be celebrated and that even with people that you have never met, you have impacted their lives. Godspeed…

beauders said...

Katie, I'm at a recovery center, I hope to be home in a month. I am going to move in with sister and her family when I get out. The hospital was great and this place is ok. I do like a lot of the people who work here.

sunset77 said...

I'm sorry to hear beauders, even though I only know you from this blog. Take care of yourself as long as you can. Life can be pretty terrible sometimes, it happens to everyone.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I'm glad you're in a safe place. Let me know if you want me to catch you up on the Bold & Beautiful, or the Cowardly and Ugly as I call them. If you don't want to talk about that it's fine.

Sleep tight and just remember you're loved!!!

beauders said...

Thanks Katie, I've caught up on B&B the internet. There is not much to do here but watch soaps and eat. They are constantly feed us.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Beauders,

You've battled so many health issues through the years... and now this. You're a stronger person than I am. I don't know how you do it. You're truly an inspiration to us all.

I will pray for you. I wish you the best always.

Your contributions and warm friendship through the years will never be forgotten.

Your amazing research and insight(s) are all documented on the blog.

Please keep us posted on your progress. And if the worst should come, please know that there's a special place in Heaven for good people like you, and we will be reunited once again (if, God-willing, I make it into Heaven with you).

Very Sincerely and Love, Lynyrd

katie8753 said...

Beauders I hope you're okay. I've been honored to have you as my friend these years on this blog. I wanted to post this song for you. I know that on the B&B Eric said he "saw the light". I guess we will all see "the light" at some time.

This song reminds me of you. I play the piano and just pretend I'm playing it for you! Love you lots!!!

beauders said...

Oh my goodness Katie, I think Poppy and Jack, had an affair that produced Luna!!!

katie8753 said...

Beauders I made that comment weeks ago. This is only leading to another illegitimate kid for Bill. That guy needs to wear a rubber or get fixed. Can't they think of another story line?

Let's see. Liam, Wyatt and now Luna are his kids. Let's calculate how much he owes in back child support. Let's see, $8,000.00/month for 20 years? I don't think even Bill has that kinda money!

You would think the writers could think of another storyline...

BTW does anyone work at this company? They're always at home!!!

Beauders, I LOVE YOU!!! Sleep tight!

beauders said...

Katie I said Jack, ex-husband of Li and father of Finn, is the father of Poppy.

katie8753 said...

Oh I didn't see that. WOW!!! That's gonna cause a lot more friction between Li & Poppy!!

beauders said...

I mean not Bill is the father of Poppy but her daughter.

beauders said...

Honey Bear Eric and Alex were real sappy today (Wednesday).

beauders said...

Katie watch todays (02/07/2024) General Hospital, it features Allie Mills, the actress from Bold & the Beautiful, falling to knees in despair over her daughter's death. She won an Emmy for the Best Guest. If it isn't on Youtube or Dailymotion.

katie8753 said...

Okay thanks Beauders. I'll try and watch that one.

I'm seriously thinking about stopping watching B&B. It's just getting so sappy. The interesting characters like Sheila just disappear and even Dollar Bill is acting like a sissy. Every day it's just some different roll in the hay.

How are you doing???

beauders said...

I'm ok, I need to get out of facility but still cannot stand on my feet. I do not feel sick other than having a cold sore. I'm glad my mom is not alive to deal with this. The oncologist said I won't feel sick but will be tired, which is my usual state. My roommate at the facility is a homeless alcoholic who is allergic to everything, and who screams whenever the staff touches her. She is very loud but doesn't want any noise to disturb her. Personally, I think she is crazy, but she can be amusing. She has learned a lot Charlie and the girls from me and about my being gay. She is a Born Again Christian and tries to convert me on about a daily schedule. She used to hate gays but now has a live and let live policy. I really hope she doesn't think she is moving with me to my sisters, but I'm sure it has crossed her mind.

katie8753 said...

A homeless alcoholic born again Christian? Hmmmm....sounds interesting. Yeah you need to nix that idea of her moving in with you and your sister. She sounds like a good person you "used to know". LOL.

beauders said...

I agree Katie, part of me thinks she's here because she has switched to oxycontin two every six hours, from alcohol.

beauders said...

My roommate is so hated here, which I understand, because she is a pain in the ass, opened a window all the way, and let us freeze all night. I don't need to develop a cold since I'm on chemotherapy.

katie8753 said...

They need to nail those windows shut! LOL.

beauders said...

No doubt Katie, we could escape if so desired.

katie8753 said...

Steffie killed Sheila. Or so they say...

beauders said...

I think she's alive or someone will rescue her too.

beauders said...

Katie, are you and your kids ok, I saw on the news the wildfire situation Texas. It appears that Sheila has been killed off, at least for now. Her contract has ended. I like Sheila too, I always like the villains, most of them are at least intelligent.

katie8753 said...

I like Sheila too. She gave the show some interesting story lines. She was pronounced dead but that doesn't mean anything. She could pop back up with some stupid transplant or something. LOL.

Believe it or not I just heard about the wildfires and they've been going on since Monday. That's up in the Texas Panhandle I think north of Amarillo close to the Oklahoma border. Any towns north of Amarillo are typically pretty small. I know they've been evacuating some places. I'm not sure what started the fire but it's being fueled by strong winds from a front that's blowing thru. The fires are several hundred miles from me so I'm good for now.

beauders said...

OK Katie, it looks like Finn is going to be haunted by Sheila, so she's not really leaving. How are the fires in Texas, they are not reporting them on the news anymore?

beauders said...

And Katie, I find it interesting that a lot of characters despise Deacon but they all eat at his restaurant continually. Also I am convinced that Luna's father is Finn's father and also her uncle. I forgot his name but this the two feuding sister's.

beauders said...

Make things really worse between Le and her sister.

beauders said...

Dollar Bill is just a red herring.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I haven't heard anything about the fires either. They're getting some rain in the Panhandle so I'm assuming those fires are out. That's sorry news reporting when you don't even hear about raging fires in your own state!

I think Bill is hoping he's Luna's father, why I don't know, but he's acting like a wimp instead of Dollar Bill! And I'd like to know what's in those "magic mints" that Poppy takes.

Yeah Deacon's restaurant is the only one in Los Angeles evidently. They all go there. And he went to the morgue to visit Sheila? That's completely weird!

beauders said...

Katie, I would think that Poppy is taking some type of Quaalude or Valium.

katie8753 said...

Beauders, "magic mints". LOL.

I watch The Beverly Hillbillies every night and I see Sharon Tate on there quite often. Her manager was an idiot. He only allowed her on there with a black wig and very few parts. She could have been a bigger comedic star if she had been allowed a bigger part. She was also supposed to be on Petticoat Junction but her manager vetoed that too. He was saving her for "bigger parts", according to him.

What a LOSER!

beauders said...

Well everyone I found out on Tuesday my cancer in five spots---my breast, my adrenal glands, my liver, and now my right lung. All the women out there, get your yearly mammograms, this is where all my cancer started. I still like the facility I'm at, so there is that. For all of you that has an extra $5.00 a month start subscribing to It is one best sites on the Tate/LaBianca case.

sunset77 said...

At least you like the facility where you are at, that's more than most people. My aunt is going to a nursing home, either yesterday or today, it's really sad. I wish you the best beauders.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I'm sorry that you have all those health issues. Our thoughts and prayers are with you. I'm glad you like the facility you are staying in. That makes a lot of difference health and mental-wise. I hope you get better every day.

Is the same as I thought that was free.

beauders said...

It is Katie, but the owner is asking for $5.00 a month now to access. It is well worth the $5.00 a month.

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