Chaos by Tom O'Neill, pg369
"The most puzzling question of all," Bugliosi wrote, was how Manson had turned his docile followers into remorseless killers. Even with the LSD, the sex, the isolation, the sleep deprivation, the social abandonment, there had to be "some intangible quality... It may be something that he learned from others."
Here are some other candidates for that 'intangible quality.'
Death to Pigs, by Robert Hendrickson, c.2011 pg323
".. Phil Phillips was actually being played by the workings of a "mentalist" ..."
...mentalists, appear to demonstrate highly developed mental or intuitive abilities. Performances may appear to include hypnosis, telepathy... mind control.... Mentalists perform a theatrical act that includes effects that may appear to employ psychic or supernatural forces but that are actually achieved by "ordinary conjuring means", natural human abilities (i.e. reading body language, refined intuition, subliminal communication, emotional intelligence), and an in-depth understanding of key principles from human psychology or other behavioral sciences....
Long Beach Independent, 10-28-70
"When I(Vern Plumlee) first met Charlie, he walked up and said 'Let me run your life down' and he did. It just kinda blew my mind. He said I had been in jail since I was 14; knew I was at McClaren (Juvenile) Hall; knew I was AWOL. I don't know how he knew."
Maybe Charlie was employing the mentalist tactic of 'cold reading.'
Cold reading is a set of techniques used by mentalists, psychics, fortune-tellers, and mediums. Without prior knowledge, a practiced cold-reader can quickly obtain a great deal of information by analyzing the person's body language, age, clothing or fashion, hairstyle, gender, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, level of education, manner of speech, place of origin, etc. during a line of questioning. Cold readings commonly employ high-probability guesses, quickly picking up on signals as to whether their guesses are in the right direction or not, then emphasizing and reinforcing chance connections and quickly moving on from missed guesses.
Dianne Lake 2022 interview
"He (Manson) had an uncanny ability to read people..."
Manson also used simple magic tricks to impress his followers with his powers:
Lynette Fromme says in Reflexion, pg19, shortly after first meeting Charlie:
"Later that night I watched cards, coins, and cigarettes disappear and reappear, slipping through his(Manson's) fingers. Not only did the tricks capture my awe, but his showmanship and spirit did too. I had to remind myself that this person could barely read..."
These talented mind manipulation artists combine their keen understanding of human psychology with excellent showmanship and theatrics to create the illusion of extraordinary powers.
Death to Pigs, pg461
Good: We've seen him do, you know, what people call supernatural things. We saw him bring a bird back to life. We've seen him jump over things that no human being could jump over, all kinds of things.
Bringing a bird back to life is actually a fairly common magic trick:
Manson apparently had sophisticated hypnosis skills, too:
(Danny Trejo) said (Manson) had hypnotic powers.
“That was the dude’s trick,” Danny said. “He survived inside by getting people high just talking to them. If he wasn’t a career criminal, he might have been one of those dudes who went to high schools and state fairs, the kind that brings people up on stage and gets them to do stupid things like pretend they’re a cat and sh**.”
Helter Skelter, pg162
Joseph Krenwinkel, father of Pat, re Manson:
"I am convinced he was some kind of hypnotist."
Death to Pigs, pg327
Interviewer: How could he control people like that?
Inyo County Deputy Sheriff Don Ward: Through suggestion--through mysticism--hypnosis if you wanna call it.
Shadow Over Santa Susanna, by Adam Gorightly, pg23
Most likely, Charlie employed various elements of hypnotism. It all had to do with the cadence of his voice, the intense look in his eyes, and the rhythmic movements he made with his hands and body.
Death to Pigs, pg244
Brooks: "Well, before when he put his motions in with it, all he had to do was start his motions and it's like, I would immediately turn on like a computer. Like, the button would be clicked and I'd become whatever machine or whatever tape was playing at the time."
In late August of 1964 CIA off-oid Sydney Gottlieb put into place a project called MK-SEARCH.
“A member of the American Society of Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis was recruited for the purpose. The hypnotist was dubbed ‘Fingers’ by Dr. Gottlieb from the theatrical way he used his hands to put a patient into a trance.
Amazing acting skills were also part of his repertoire:
"Charlie was full of characters who took our attention, among them a lounge singer, a cowboy crooner, and "Hyme Feinschleister," a nebbish."
Member of the Family by Dianne Lake
--He could change his voice, intonation, and accent depending upon who was on the receiving end.
--Charlie used the shape of his eyebrows and the muscles in his face to become different people. He must have practiced a lot in prison, because he could isolate parts of his face that I didn't realize could move separately from the whole, dropping his brows in unison and then raising up only one. Then he made a V with his brows that made him look like the devil. With every movement of his face, his eyes changed as well, like a shapeshifter creating the illusion of different people and personalities.
Dianne Lake 2022 interview
"He (Manson)just had this uncanny ability to morph into these different personalities and people... "
Charlie's employment of LSD to influence his recruits is well known, using some well placed props:
Shadow Over Santa Susanna, pg17
"On the wall of Manson's pad was a picture of Jesus, and below it Charlie often sat, sending out heavy vibes. ... Brockman was stunned by the realization that, if one dropped enough acid, then--like a psychelic alchemist--Charlie could manipulate the elements, turning himself into Jesus at will. "Charlie as Jesus was branded into my thoughts.... .. I knew I couldn't submit to whatever it was the idea of Charlie as Jesus expected of me. I only knew the man was playing heavy games. Charlie could plant that in a person's head, or create it, the same way a magician creates a bunch of flowers in the air.."
Charlie also used his knowledge of human nature to exploit people's vulnerablities:
Ken Dickerson, 20 in 2017, Manson pen pal 2005 to 2012
"He always wanted people to get rid of their ego..
--“He would make sure that any weirdness you had inside you, he found it.” Manson used that knowledge two ways: “He’d make you feel good about yourself, always make sure that you were happy in one way or another, give you compliments. If you didn’t feel comfortable with your body, he’d always say, ‘You are perfect. There’s nothing wrong with you. What’s wrong is other people judging.’” On the other hand, he also knew how to “make you as uncomfortable as possible.” Suggest homosexuality to someone who was totally straight. Keep people off base."
The success Charlie had conning people out of their property is a testament to his powers:
Death to Pigs, pg230
Watkins: "Charlie could go into some guy's house and talk him out of a ten thousand dollar piano."
The Family, pg50
-"Manson.. gave to Melba(Cronkite) a 1967 Red Ford Mustang which a New Yorker named Michael... had given to Manson."
Death to Pigs, pg258
Watkins: "When a guy goes off the ranch and comes back thirty minutes later and has a car and two hundred dollars and says somebody gave it to him. you know. He used to do that..."
Lynette: "I don't think I ever heard him directly ask for money, but it seemed that people couldn't wait to give it to him."
Like any performing art, mentalism requires years of dedication, extensive study, practice, and skill to perform well and perfect.
Charlie developed a high degree of competence in the use of these mental mind-manipulation techniques. The question is, where did Charlie acquire these skills? He didn't get it from reading a book on magic tricks or hypnosis. Someone must have taught him.
We all know that Alvin 'Creepy' Karpis schooled Charlie in prison on the rudiments of playing the steel guitar. So why don't we know the names of these other teachers?
Submitted by Starviego. Thank You Starviego!
Thanks Starviego. I think Charlie developed a variety of "survival techniques" while in prison. He was a little guy and I'm assuming the probability of him being bullied by other inmates was pretty good. Plus the people he was pulling these tricks on were on drugs, so that would make it even easier.
Bringing a bird back to life is actually a fairly common magic trick
Really? I would think the only way you could bring a bird back to life is that he wasn't entirely dead.
Starviego submitted a video for the magic trick. The video somehow got lost during the communication between us. I added the magic trick video onto the thread.
Okay thanks Lynyrd!
Also Katie, why do Ridge and Bill need an entire room of spy gear to keep track of Sheila?
Katie if you have time there is a documentary on youtube about Jonestown you should watch. Just plug in Jonestown Terror In the Jungle. It lasts two hours and forty minutes. It was put together by the Sundance Channel. It explains the truth of the massacre.
Beauders, what I want to know is why they need a full time FBI agent to watch Bill's living room 24/7. For some reason, they think that the minute Sheila gets that ring on her finger, she's gonna start singing like a canary about all the people she's killed. LOL. I'll check out that Jonestown video this weekend.
(Danny Trejo) said (Manson) had hypnotic powers.
I didn't know Danny Trejo knew Manson. I looked up his Wiki account and found this:
While doing a stint in Los Angeles County jail in 1961, he met Charles Manson, whom he described as a "dirty, greasy, scrawny, white boy" who was allegedly a talented hypnotist.
Wow! I never knew that!
I think Trejo’s comments are similar to the oh so many people that were supposed to be at Cielo that night, but fate stepped in. An attempt to insert oneself into something just for the attention. In ‘61, the Wooly Hophead was still in his slick, pimp-like huckster phase, he had not yet experienced his grubby phase.
Good point Dill!
I watched that bird video. Something fishy about that. That bird was definitely dead. And he turned it over and it was alive??
I looked up the "dead bird back to life trick" yesterday. Apparently, some birds are easy to train or they might "play possum" in a crisis and pretend to be dead. I can't find the link again right now to post it. I suspect that's how Blaine and others do that trick.
Do any of the people on here that watch soap operas remember Thom Bierdz?
"Thom Bierdz (born March 25, 1962) is an American actor best known for his portrayal of Phillip Chancellor III on the daytime drama The Young and the Restless."
I watched a documentary about him last night. He had a brother Troy that was psycho. When Troy was a kid he would torture insects and keep journals about how he killed them. Rabbits, caterpillars, spiders, ants, turtles, flies, very descriptive and horrible. One of his drawings apparently depicted how he wanted to kill his brother, it showed a stick figure hanging connected to a battery with jumper cables. The TV documentary didn't even mention it, they might not have even noticed, but at the bottom of the drawing was a notation I certainly noticed. "Helter Skelter II"
Troy Bierdz eventually beat his mother to death with a baseball bat. Bierdz Brothers
Apparent death[a] is a behavior in which animals take on the appearance of being dead. It is an immobile state most often triggered by a predatory attack and can be found in a wide range of animals from insects and crustaceans to mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and fish.
Apparent death is a form of animal deception considered to be an anti-predator strategy... When induced by humans, the state is sometimes colloquially known as animal hypnosis.
Another tactic that Charlie used was something known as the "Russian Scam" in magic circles. It's based on the theory of reciprocity. The magician gives you something--like a playing card--and he then gets you to give him something back--like your wallet.
Charlie of course was known for giving a lot of stuff away--cars, cash, sex with his girls--but you can bet he always demanded or expected something in return.
Sandra Good never blinks. That could be significant. Just sayin'.
Katie, what a week on B&B am I right did Ridge and Bill give Deacon money for turning on Sheila? Sandy Good is still crazy in my book but the one that still scares me is Nancy Pitman, just look at her kids if you want a fright and of course she lives in Oregon.
Yeah I think that Ridge and Bill gave money to Deacon for turning Sheila in. I can't believe that Sheila fell out of a 2 story window onto concrete and just got up and drove off.
Yeah Nancy is scary. Wasn't she involved in the murders of the Willets? She was another "rich girl turned bad". Charlie hit the jackpot with those girls who could get money from their Daddys. I've gotta say, whatever you want to say about Charlie, he knew how to read people to glom money from them.
This was on my Facebook feed this morning Lynyrd Skynyrd Tribute Medley of “Simple Man” & “Sweet Home Alabama” | 2023 CMT Music Awards
Some more evidence of Charlie's charisma:
Cease to Exist – Charles Manson, the Beach Boys and the Death of the Sixties
Atkins: "And as he sang, the song that hit me hardest was The Shadow of Your Smile. Even before I saw him, while I was still in the kitchen, his voice just hypnotised me, mesmerised me. Then, when I saw him, I fell absolutely in love with him."
Manson’s ability to charm and seduce through either intimidation or empathy was a characteristic that he had developed as an adolescent during his time in a boy’s home. With little contact with his family, the teenager was forced to develop certain defensive traits and these abilities would eventually come into play in his adult life.
‘By fourteen, Charlie had an uncanny ability to decipher the unspoken vocabulary of body language. His skills were as honed as those of the best analysts,’ claimed Lawson McDowell in Before He Became a Monster. ‘It was not Charlie’s imposing physique that captivated them, for he was short and thin. Maybe his smile struck them. It was magic to be sure, but his fierce eyes were what they found most unusual. Never had they seen such eyes in a boy their own age. Those spellbinding, entrancing portals were something they had never seen.’
For his newfound teenage friends in the late-sixties, they too saw the mesmerising spark in his eyes and were overtaken by the commanding tone of his voice. ‘After listening to Charlie sing and talk, after dancing with him and making love, after sensing and seeing the power of his mind, I knew I would go with him if he asked,’ admitted Atkins ...
Charlie had instantly seemed more of a father to me than my own father.’ ...
Charlie was no hippie. He was an entrepreneur. He gave people things – drugs, his own shirt – to get things back. ....
Another big weapon that Charlie used to bastardize the minds of his followers was his relentless promotion of amorality--the absence of any morality at all.
Amorality (also known as amoralism) is an absence of, indifference towards, disregard for, or incapacity for morality. ... Amoral should not be confused with immoral, which refers to an agent doing or thinking something they know or believe to be wrong.
Witness to Evil, by George Bishop c.1971 pg352
Manson told Jacobson, through the course of many conversations, that he believed there was no such thing as right or wrong and that he personally could do no right or wrong.
Q: (Bugliosi) He told you that it was not wrong to kill?
Alone with the Devil by Markham pg205
Manson told them there was no such thing as bad and no such thing as wrong. Also, Tex recounted, "there was no such thing as death, so it was not wrong to kill a fellow human being."
The Manson Women, a "Family" Portrait, by Clara Livsey MD, c.1980 pg196
She(Lynette) was admired and respected by Manson, unconditionally. ...she felt that according to Manson she could do no wrong.
Will You Die for Me? by Tex Watson pg67
I quoted Charlie and told her(Kasabian) that there was no wrong, no sin; everything anyone had was meant to be shared.
Witness to Evil, by George Bishop c.1971 pg7
I asked if they have any sense of remorse for anything they might have done.
"No guilt feelings at all," Fitzgerald replied. "They've been conditioned away from society's generally accepted mores."
IMO, it was this, rather than any inherent coldness or callousness, that caused all the inappropriate behavior by the girls in the courts--the singing, the giggling, etc.
Katie, sad news Elizabeth Hubbard, Lucinda Walsh on ATWA, has died at 89.
Beauders, I'm sorry to hear about Lucinda. Although it is ATWT, not ATWA. LOL.
Starviego, Charlie was a hustler, a con man, a bunko artist, a quick change man, someone who lived his whole life convincing anyone that his way was the only way or the better way.
It's not surprising that he fooled a bunch of stupid girls looking for love and acceptance from some guy into thinking that he was some kind of super hero that should be looked up to. Have you ever heard him sing? It makes you want to barf!
The men should have known better, except that some of them were "girl like" in that they needed male acceptance too. I think Tex falls into this category.
I think Tex was lying when he claims that he did everything Charlie said. The next night Charlie said it was "too messy" and he would orchestrate it.
Charlie and Tex were NOT connecting at that point.
BTW Beauders, Brooke is pushing the envelope when it comes to Ridge with that skimpy outfit, and I can't think of one reason that anyone would go after that hound dog with that untrimmed beard and stringy hair. Uggghhh!
Good catch Katie, which have I written more ATWA or ATWT? ATWA of course. Yes, I thought Brooke was going to tackle Ridge in her nighty. So that's how she sleeps when she is alone, ya right. Ridge definitely needs a shower, a shampoo, and a lot hair cut off his head and face.
Is anyone following the Lori Vallow trial? It started Monday. They're not allowing cameras in the courtroom but there are several You Tube sites that stream the audio for each day after court is recessed. I've listened to quite a bit of it and learned some new stuff I hadn't heard. I'm wondering if Lori will testify.
Katie, I'm keeping up a bit, with Lori Vallow trial. This woman seems to be crazier than Susan Atkins. She's been married five times, which I'm sure is frowned upon by the Mormon Church, which she is a member of. A lot of people have died around her. Is there more that her children and husband #5's, the Daybell guy, wife's dead? I predict she's going to turn on Daybell and throw him under the bus. Idaho does not have an insanity defense, so it will be interesting to see how she is defended. Idaho also has reinstated the death penalty, by firing squad. Lori is not being tried as a death penalty contender, but what about Daybell? I'm sure they will ask for the death penalty for him. I'm sure he now wishes he had never met Lori.
Beauders there is so much about this case that it's hard to begin.
This woman seems to be crazier than Susan Atkins.
I'm not sure when she turned crazy. I thought she only began listening to crazy stuff when she started up with Chad Daybell, but I've been listening to testimony and I'm beginning to think she was crazy from day 1.
She's been married five times, which I'm sure is frowned upon by the Mormon Church, which she is a member of
She's a member of the LDS church but she is/was involved in a cult offshoot that the Mormon Church doesn't approve of. At least according to testimony.
A lot of people have died around her. Is there more that her children and husband #5's, the Daybell guy, wife's dead?
Her 4th husband Joe Ryan died young of a mysterious death. I think they're looking into that one. Supposedly she was the last person to see him alive. Also her brother Alex Cox, the "hit man" for Lori, died suddenly in December of 2019. Which I find awfully convenient. They can both blame all of this on him since he can't defend himself.
I predict she's going to turn on Daybell and throw him under the bus. Idaho does not have an insanity defense, so it will be interesting to see how she is defended. Idaho also has reinstated the death penalty, by firing squad. Lori is not being tried as a death penalty contender, but what about Daybell? I'm sure they will ask for the death penalty for him. I'm sure he now wishes he had never met Lori.
You're right, Idaho doesn't have an insanity defense. I don't think that Lori will turn on Chad, I think she will blame this all on her dead brother Alex. I don't know what charges they are bringing against Chad but I do think he will try to blame Lori for all of this.
They went into some detail about the kids being dug up at Chad's place. It was so gruesome. I can't imagine anyone doing something like that to your own family.
And according to people who are attending the trial, Lori is still giggling and smirking.
She's a monster.
Chad probably wishes he had never met Lori, but he was dumb enough to have those kiddos buried on his property. He was attracted to her for the kinky sex. Sometimes you get what you ask for!
I've only followed the Lori Vallow case slightly, that whole crew seems somewhat "strange". Here's something I ran across if you haven't seen it--Spin That Wheel
Thanks Sunset. Lori seemed normal back when she was on Wheel of Fortune. They mentioned in court that Lori claimed that God is the one who put her on Wheel of Fortune, so I guess she was cracked even back then.
I made a mistake by saying Joe Ryan was her 4th husband. He was her 3rd husband. Her 4th husband Charles Vallow was killed by Lori's brother Alex.
Chad told Lori he had a "gift" of being able to determine if people were "light" or "dark", dark meaning they were demon possessed. So suddenly anyone who was standing in Lori's way or preventing her from doing whatever she wanted were determined to have "turned dark". The dark list includes Charles Vallow, Lori's own children Tylee & JJ, and Chad's wife Tammy. So conveniently all those people are now dead.
Tylee was only 17 years old. She was dismembered and burned. The only thing left to identify her were some teeth and bones. JJ was only 7 years old. He was wrapped up in duct tape all over his body including his face. He was probably smothered to death. Then he was buried vertically. How could you do this to your own children?
I could go on and on about this case, but I see it as a "slam dunk" for the prosecution. You can't explain all this stuff away. There's just too much "coincidental death".
Beauders I didn't know Idaho had the firing squad. That seems a fitting end for the fat pasty cult leader Chad. LOL.
As I stated, I don't know much about the Vallow case, but from what I've seen so far, there isn't much direct evidence tying the Daybell's to the murders. They are certainly crazy, but that's not evidence of murder. Jealousy motives and money motives appear to be very apparent, but that it still not direct evidence of murder. I just got approved for a Facebook room that discusses that case this morning. There is often information in those groups posted by friends and family members, etc. that knew the people involved. I'm in 2 of those groups following the Bryan Kohberger murder trial.
Your request to join Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell Murders and Trial - Case Discussion has been approved. Now you can post and comment in this group.
In the Idaho student murder case involving Bryan Kohberger, internet speculation and accusations were insane. One of the people often accused by "online sleuths" was Kaylee Goncalves' boyfriend Jack DeCouer. They owned a dog together. After the murders, he was given the dog. He came in one of the Facebook groups and posted photos of the dog and gave updates about his health. It actually gave the impression the dog "missed" Kaylee Goncalves.--Murphy the dog
Thanks Sunset. Let us know how it goes in that Facebook group.
I don't know if the prosecution has presented any direct evidence connecting Chad & Lori to these killings, at least not yet, but there is so much circumstantial evidence it's overwhelming.
Chad & Lori were constantly texting & e-mailing each other, discussing the victims in this case. Chad even told Lori in a text message that his wife would die soon, and that was right before she died. And now her death has been ruled as asphyxiation, which means she was killed. And the only one with her that night was Chad.
There has been testimony that this group of people, Chad, Lori, etc. had regular "sessions" to drive demons out of certain folks, the same folks that are now dead. The same folks that Chad declared were "dark". It was revealed that the only way to get the really bad demons out was to dismember, burn and bind the possessed person. And that's exactly how the kids were found: Tylee was dismembered and burned and JJ was "bound" with duct tape.
These are way too many coincidences to just ignore.
I haven't had much chance to read through that Lori Vallow Facebook page yet, but what I saw yesterday they were talking about life insurance polices and who the beneficiaries were.
I don't know if you are interested of if this Facebook link will work for you, but there apparently is audio of Chad Daybell trying to change the beneficiary on a life insurance policy-- Chad Daybell audio
It might take a second to load, click the little "play" button on the bottom left and the little "speaker" icon on the bottom right to have sound.
I think Lori Vallow is on her way to being the most hated woman in the United States, like Casey Anthony was, for so long. Normal Mormons believe some crazy stuff, including the Book of Mormon claims Jesus walked in the United States and blessed this country. The Book of Mormon should be read by all non-Mormons, it the quickest growing religion on this planet, well after Islam. Idaho is a quarter Mormon and half of Utah is Mormon. I have Mormons in my family and I understand why the church is so important to my cousins. Lori's little cult with Chad Daybell is just nuts. Katie, I hope, Hope has an affair with Thomas, it would liven things up a bit. Did you watch the documentary on Jonestown? It is really worth the time.
Sunset thanks for posting that link. That was very interesting.
Beauders, I don't don't know very much about the Mormon religion but surely Chad and Lori weren't following those teachings. The cult that Chad started seemed to continually evolve according to his wants and desires, and later to include Lori's wants and desires. This stuff about living several other lives on different planets is just too bizarre. It's interesting that Chad's little cult group was mostly composed of women. In fact I think the only man there besides Chad was Alex Cox. It seemed to be like a little "harem" for him. This case is getting weirder and weirder by the day.
Travis Alexander was a Mormon. Jodi Arias joined the Mormon church so he would marry her, which didn't work out. Also Susan and Josh Powell were Mormons.
I don't know what's going on with Hope. She's acting like she's one brick short of a load. It looks like she and Thomas are gonna hook up. I think they're leaning towards Steffy and Liam getting back together.
I didn't watch the documentary on Jonestown. I just forgot about it. Can you post that link again?
Katie just put Jonestown Massacre on youtube search and a documentary should show up that lasts 2 hours and 40 minutes. It is very good, answers a lot of questions, and is worth the time. Regular Mormons believe in planet stuff. They believe that if a man is a good Mormon when he dies he gets his own planet, where he can call up his wife, family, and any non Mormon's he wants. It is an interesting theology. They also don't have a hell or some bad place.
I know very little about Mormons however, it seems to me they practice "polygamy" (multiple wives). That has been a contentious subject around Mormons for many years. I think Donny and Marie Osmond are Mormons. There are a number of "obscure" religions still around to this day. My dad was a preacher in a "Brethren" church for many years. We had his funeral there about a month and a half ago.
I'm not going to go into all the details, but some of these religions started from people breaking away from the Catholic church in the 1500's Menno Simons started a religion known as the "Mennonites". There is a Mennonite church right down the road from me. In 1693 in Switzerland Jakob Ammann and his group broke away from the Mennonite church, his followers became known as "Amish". Generally, the Mennonites and Amish refrain from "modern" things, although I think the Mennonites are less strict than the Amish. The Mennonites drive cars, have electricity, etc. The Amish are more strict and often drive horse and buggies. There have been many terrible car accidents involving Amish buggies and motor vehicles, often involving Amish children being killed. I almost hit one myself once. Going down a rural road, speed limit 55, around a sharp curve, and there was an Amish buggy going like 5 mph. I had to hit the brakes very hard. Amish buggies are fairly common in some places around here, the Amish tend to live in the same area.--Amish Buggy
I think the Mormons are somewhat different though. I think John Smith started the Mormon church. Here is a documentary about some of Mormon history, (I don't know if it's all true or not)--Mormon Documentary
Thanks guys! Sunset I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your Dad.
Beauders, it's convenient that the Mormons don't believe in hell. Because when you kill your kids it's pretty evident you're going there!
Chad and Lori think they are god/goddess, so I'm surprised they haven't sprung out of jail yet. You wouldn't think that such super beings would be bound by mortal iron. LOL.
I've been working today and maybe the rest of this week. I'll comment more in a few days.
Normal male Mormons also believe they will have multiple wives on their planet and that they are Gods on their planet.
By the way Katie, why did B&B make such a big deal about Stephie's birthday? Did miss something?
Wow Beauders, I didn't know the Mormons were so dangerous! Maybe we should put crosses up in their faces, like vampires, when we see them. Although I've never seen one in Texas. I guess they don't like it here.
I don't know why they made it a big deal about Stephie's birthday. I guess the writers went on strike for a day. How about RJ coming back to town today? And Deacon drooling over Sheila in jail today. Something's brewing there.
I think the prosecution is just about done with their case against Lori. The defense will take over soon. Although I don't know what defense they can offer. There is none.
I saw on a channel that Chad won't be testifying against Lori. I don't know if he was testifying for or against her. But she will have a chance to testify and it most likely will be against him.
Did you hear that phone call between Lori and her son Colby? That was the most heart-stopping thing I've ever heard. He was yelling at her for killing his siblings. My heart goes out to him. He's lost his mom and siblings.
I really think that Lori has lost her mind!
Katie, most Mormons are harmless, they make good neighbors, but they do vote conservative, which I don't like. My cousin, who is Mormon, and her husband lived in Texas for a while, so there's a few for you. She now lives in Salt Lake City, has six daughters no sons, and is suffering from breast cancer. I wish that Lori's trial was on tv, it would be interesting. She's obviously nuts but no insanity means that doesn't matter. Any mother who can kill her own children and then go to Hawaii and marry and have a great vacation has to be nuts. Sane women do not murder their children. I suspect that Lori has been at least a little nuts for most if not all of her life.
Well I'm sorry to say that I was right. The Coroner announced today that JJ was smothered to death with the duct tape. That poor little boy was smothered by his own mother, uncle or creepy boyfriend. You might wonder why Chad Daybell would want those bodies buried on his property, which was really stupid, but he probably told Lori that the land on his property was "hallowed ground" and the best place to bury them.
Thanks Beauders, I'm sure that most Mormons are harmless. There are a lot of people who join cults who aren't Mormons, and that includes the Manson Family.
I heard the testimony of Lori's sister Summer today. The testimony was pretty bland but the phone call between the 2 sisters while Lori was in jail was heartbreaking. Lori's sister Summer and her mother had been defending her on TV shows for months, saying that if Lori said the kids were "safe and happy" then they were. On the phone call she's pretty much screaming and crying about why didn't Lori tell them they were thrown away like trash on Chad's property.
I suspect that Lori has been at least a little nuts for most if not all of her life.
I agree. You don't just "turn nuts" after meeting some goomer. The nails were already in the coffin before she met Chad. They just got hammered in further.
Beauders, who is the guy that came to see Sheila?
That was a disappointment, it was Finn's dad.
Saw this on Facebook, apparently hair found on the duct tape on at least one of the victims matched Lori Vallow--Hair
Yeah I saw that yesterday Beauders. I thought he was dead or something.
Thanks Sunset. I heard about that hair DNA belonging to Lori yesterday. I also heard some very disturbing testimony from an expert who explained that Tylee wasn't just dis-membered. Whoever did that to her didn't just cut her up. The bones that were found were splintered and broken which indicates that someone took a sharp instrument and whacked her body over and over in a maniacal manner. We can only hope she was dead by then. I hate to say this, but it's been reported that Tylee had a smart mouth and argued a lot with Lori, and we know that JJ was autistic and acted up and spoke out a lot. Was the manner of death for these children "the last word"? Tylee cut to ribbons and JJ's mouth duct taped shut?
I think the defense will start in about a week. I can't imagine what defense they will have for Lori. People who were close to her have testified against her. There is no defense. The only thing they can do is (a) try to blame it all on Chad Daybell or (b) try to have experts on the stand that say she's nuts and brainwashed.
Katie, I guess we can all just wish that someday that crazy woman will understand what she has done and she herself, knows she is evil. She will not be popular in prison. Katie do you what is the problem between RJ and Thomas?
Beauders I guess RJ is mad at Thomas for making that phone call to CPS and using Brooke's voice. I don't really remember a lot about RJ.
Being nuts and/or brainwashed is not an allowable defense in Idaho. Katie the rift between RJ and Thomas seems older than Thomas calling CPS on himself. Oh well no big deal gotta remember soaps are fiction.
Beauders I guess Thomas & RJ don't like each other because they have 2 different mothers who hated each other.
The prosecution rested yesterday in the Vallow case, and the defense isn't going to say anything. I heard someone make a comment that the defense must think the prosecution didn't prove guilt, but I think it's because they don't have a defense. They can't put Lori on the stand because she's got a lot of "splainin' to do and there's no one else to put on the stand in her defense. Her own family testified against her.
Those text messages that were recovered in Lori's ICloud account were really hard to listen to. Chad actually said he was going to "turn up the pain" on the children. That's heart breaking to imagine how those kids died.
Chad's attorney has been in court for this trial and I would imagine he's telling Chad to just plead guilty to a lesser charge because if he goes to trial, he's gonna get the death penalty.
So it is always interesting when Defense chooses not to put on a case. While some may view at it as a strategy of a directed verdict, it typically does not work out that way. Jury’s are fickle and they notice many things. While defense counsel may view it as a case was not made, many times a jury will see it as the defendant was guilty but did not want to show how weak their case was. In a case like this, she would have been better off taking an Alford plea.
Thanks Dill. Lori's attorneys are public defenders I think. I think they are in over their heads on this case. There are just too many text messages that include Lori in these murders. Speaking of Lori, I've heard that she usually smirks, giggles and acts silly during testimony. I know the jury can see that too.
What's an Alford plea?
An Alford plea is, in essence, a form of a plea bargain. It allows a defendant to maintain their innocence while accepting responsibility for the crime. It typically goes hand-in-hand with a reduced sentence rather than bearing the full weight of a finding of guilt. In this case, there is no way a conviction is not coming.
Thanks Dill, I agree.
I've got to relate something funny, well not funny "ha ha", funny strange. In the text messages that were revealed in testimony, sometime during September or October 2019, Lori and Chad had a fight. Evidently he wasn't killing his wife fast enough for Lori. She had already done away with her husband and children, but Chad kept promising her that his wife would die under random circumstances, but the deed hadn't happened yet. So Lori texted him and brushed him off, saying she was tired of being "second best" and "maybe he'd be better off without her". Then she stopped answering his texts.
Well, Baby-butt Chad started bawling and screaming because of the loser guy he is because Lori wasn't answering his texts, and then he texted her that "God told him" that since she's not answering his texts, that the "angels weren't protecting her anymore". He actually said that if you give me a "thumbs up emoji" that the "angels would change their minds and protect her".
She gave him an emoji smile, and his wife Tammy died days later.
This is an open and shut case. As Archie Bunker would say: CASE CLOSED! LOL.
Lori Vallow found guilty on all counts of conspiracy to commit murder, first degree murder and grand theft. She wasn't smirking today. She looked a little mad...
Even Stevie Wonder would have seen that verdict coming. The only bad thing is that Idaho had taken the DP off off the table early. Some people say that LWOP is worse, but that is not always the case. Some convicts do not give a shit about their victims,so they will do the time and never think twice about the harm they caused.
Thanks Dill. I think that it's a big wake-up call for Lori knowing that she will live her life in prison instead of dancing on a Hawaiian beach for all eternity like Chad promised.
I wonder what Chad's defense will be. He will probably dump all this on Lori during his trial, if that will help. I'm thinking that guy needs to bend over and kiss his butt goodbye.
If anyone is interested, there is a new Dateline on NBC tonight from 8 to 10pm Central time, outlining this case.
Like I said before, Lori will not be popular in prison, and I think she is vain enough that she will never accept responsibility and will always blame others. She will not have a good time being locked up for the remainder of her life. Life in Idaho is not easy, it is hotter than a furnace in summer and freezing in the winter. It is a lot like Death Valley. Idaho is mainly a desert, and prison have minimal heat in the winter and no air conditioning in the summer. I think Chad will be found guilty and given the death penalty, even if they try to lay it all on Lori. Remember the condition these children's bodies were in when they were dug up. That's where the case was lost for Lori, and most likely will be where Chad's defense will lose. On 60 Minutes on Sunday, they are airing a story on the wealth the Mormon Church has, a must watch or anyone watching this new emerging religion.
Quite the cliffhanger on B&B today, will Hope kiss Thomas or not? I cannot believe Steffy would ever leave Finn for Liam though.
Also I am surprised Lori didn't throw Chad under the bus, she must actually love him, in some sick way.
I saw Lori Vallow was convicted last night, but that's about as much as I know. I wasn't able to follow that case very closely, it wasn't covered much on TV where I am.
Beauders I don't like the storyline on B&B right now. They're making Hope look like a whack job that can't control herself because of her mother. I hope Steffy doesn't leave Finn for Liam. I want to see Sheila again.
No Lori isn't going to like being in prison and up until yesterday I really think that Lori thought it would be all over yesterday, she would be found not guilty, the shackles would fall off and she would run to Chad. Either that, or she thought God would rip the roof off the courthouse and a giant hand would reach in and grab her. Either way, when she was pronounced guilty on all counts and taken back to her cell that must have been a giant wake up call for her. You could tell by the look on her face that she was mad. All this time she's been in the court room laughing, smiling, smirking and looking around at everyone like she's a movie star. That stopped yesterday.
I heard yesterday that Lori told her defense attorneys that she didn't want to blame this on Chad or Alex. I just wish someone would spill the beans on what really happened.
Sunset, I've been listening to this trial on You Tube channels. It wasn't on my local news, but yesterday when the verdict was read they cut in on some major channels for the reading of the verdict.
Another example of Charlie's mental tricks in action:
Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered by Lester Grinspoon c. 1997
In a 1977 prison interview with one of the authors... When she(LVH) became attached to Manson as a father-substitute, he taught her to "get rid of Leslie": abandon the self that cut her off from the work, and allow it to die so that she could give herself up completely to him. She had to purge from her mind everything that her parents had taught her--what Manson called "reflections."
Starviego, Charlie was a cult leader. Cult leaders use all kinds of tricks to get followers. They look for weaknesses in people that will allow them to be controlled. Charlie used drugs to enhance the experience of people thinking he was their "leader". I think the reason he had more female followers than male followers was the "Daddy thing". Men aren't looking for a "Daddy", they're looking for power and sex. I'm sure Charlie learned a lot of psychological control methods in prison. Charlie wasn't "magic" he was just a grifter looking for people to control so he could feel better about himself.
Some cult leaders don't use drugs, they use fear. It's just as effective. Chad Daybell was one of those cult leaders.
When Cielo Drive was attacked, Hollywood went into lockdown. They were all in fear of these killings. That gave Charlie power in his head. The next night he wanted to be in charge. That gave him more power in his head. For once in his life, he was someone.
He didn't have a mama or daddy who cared about him, but he suddenly had a group of misfits who adored him. He was just as squirrely as his converts because it didn't take long for the law to catch up to him. He just wasn't as smart as he thought he was.
I'm still following 2 cases online, the Bryan Kohberger case in Idaho, I don't think they've even released the 911 call yet. Four Idaho students were murdered, it seems both the prosecution and defense are delaying. I think his next hearing is in late June or July.
I'm also following "Taylor Schabusiness". She apparently has a new lawyer after attacking her last one in court a few months ago. She admitted to strangling a guy, they found his head and "organ" in a bucket. I can't find the video now where the deputy in the court room apparently says into his microphone--wrestling with Schabusiness
Sunset I saw on the news that Bryan Kohberger was indicted by a grand jury to stand trial for those murders. That's another bizarre case. Why would he kill those people? Did he know them? Was he mad at them? I haven't really studied that case.
For me, I would guess the "why" of Kohberger killing those 4 students was drugs. As I've said many times before, whenever a murder is described as "bizarre" or "senseless", the first thing to look for is what drugs the murderer was taking.
Anyway, I don't know if he knew the victims or not. I don't think the victims had any clue he even existed (or very little clue), he might have stalked them however, for whatever reason. A lot of that case is being kept secret. They haven't even released the 911 calls yet, plus one of the surviving room mates doesn't want to testify. I think there's been court wrangling over that.
Apparently, just yesterday, Kohberger was indicted by a grand jury, he supposedly will appear on court on Monday, possibly to enter a plea. My "guess" is the prosecution got a grand jury indictment so they could keep the evidence secret. Witnesses would have had to testify at his preliminary hearing and I don't think they wanted that. A lot of this case is being kept secret. Apparently, they have Kohberger's DNA on a knife sheath found at the crime scene. However, there are "rumors" that one of the cops that collected evidence was under investigation for doing "something" wrong. In any case, Kohberger is supposed to appear in court, here's a news story about it--Indictment
Thanks Sunset. Just wanted to let everyone know that there's a 2 hour Dateline special tonight on the Idaho murders of those 4 kids. It's 8pm to 10pm Central Time. I'm going to watch it and catch up on this case.
RIP NFL great Jim Brown, whose name appears in the 2nd Tate Police investigation report.
I still have Jim Brown on a football card. My dad said he'd never run out of bounds to avoid a hit, every time he saw someone do that, I knew exactly what he was going to say, "Jim Brown wouldn't have ran out of bounds like that". I had no idea he was mentioned in the Second Tate Homicide report. Rest in peace.
Katie, did Dateline claim that Bryan Kohberger is a incel?
Beauders that Dateline was 8pm to 10pm and I fell asleep around 8:45 that night and missed most of the show. I was going to ask if anyone knows when they will repeat that show because it was a really good show for a while. I'd like the chance to see the whole thing.
What's an incel?
a member of an online community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually, typically associated with views that are hostile toward women and men who are sexually active.
I think it's "involuntarily celibate". A guy that wants to have sex but can't find a partner for whatever reason.
It's one of those new words that not everyone knows what it means, like LGBTQ, misogyny, narcissistic, etc. At least I don't know what they mean without looking them up. They are usually sexually related as nowadays, many people seem to think that other people want to hear them shout about their sexuality at the top of their lungs.
One thing the internet is always good for is jokes:
An InCel is someone who is involuntarily celibate. What do you call someone who is voluntarily celibate?
Try Youtube or NBC, Katie.
Wow Sunset told a joke!! HA HA HA HA! All these new words people are coming up with! Sounds like baby-talk to me!
Beauders I've searched for that Dateline episode and all I can come up with is a 5 minute snippet that advertises it. I'll keep looking.
Katie, this MIGHT be the recent Dateline episode, I'm not sure. I searched on DuckDuckGo, that gave me this Reddit link, it's just a plain youtube video, but I think Google hides stuff like that. I'm not sure if this is it or not though, I don't watch that show.
The Killings on King Road
Also, apparently We need trans people
If you Google "Dateline The Killings on King Road" the NBC Official Website Stream will pop up in the video options and you can view the episode
Unfortunately, I can't view it in Canada
Thanks Sunset. I checked out that video and I think it's something that someone evidently uploaded to You Tube after having recorded it. That's watchable but I've noticed that sometimes the camera angles are off and you can't see people's faces for a few seconds then it clears up. I'll try watching it.
I can't believe that anyone voted for that crazy lady Senator.
Thanks Doug. I'll try Googling that and see if I can find it on the NBC Website.
I had no idea he was mentioned in the Second Tate Homicide report.
Here is the full quote:
the 2nd Tate Police investigation report:
"On 9-8-69, an appointment was made by Kate Saxton, aka Baird, Pegrum, and Marilyn Kirk to
talk with Sergeant Calkins at Parker Center ... Kate Baird is from England and had been an actress in that country for a number of years. She was married to
a male Negro by the name of Harry Fredericks Patterson Baird, an American.... According to Kate Saxton, Harry Baird is a close friend of Mohammed Ali and ex-pro football player, Jim Brown. All three of the individuals are active in a black power movement which encompasses both England and the USA. ... She is convinced that the homicides were a means of the black power movement in this country to show their force and strength. ...Saxton states that her ex-husband knew about the murders "almost as soon as they happened." "
Well I was able to watch the Dateline episode. Thanks to everyone!
I'm not sure why they zeroed in on Bryan but there are many videos of his white Elantra being near the crime scene before the murders and around 4:30am on the murder date.
They think that maybe one or two of the victims were targets. The others were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I don't know how one person can kill 4 people with a knife without waking everyone up. They still haven't explained that.
For being a really smart guy and pursuing a doctorate in Criminology, this guy was really dumb.
He didn't know video cameras would spot him? He didn't know leaving his sheath would incriminate him?
As far as I heard he wasn't classified as an "Incel". But they did say that he probably watched their Tik Tok videos and tried to hook up with them, and when rejected, he could find out their location.
Thanks for posting the quote of the Second Tate Homicide report mentioning Jim Brown. I had probably read that at one time, but it's been years ago since I read those reports.
Some more examples of how Charlie manipulated his followers, according to Tex Watson psych reports:
From Dr. Joel Fort's interview of July 1971, pg6:
"In recalling his life on the ranch Watson states that a "bunch of times Manson would give us a lot of acid and have us play games with make believe people there and us killing them. " "
From Dr. Joel Fort's interview of July 1971, pg7:
"...a form of brainwashing or re-conditioning (re-education) of the girls and Watson was carried out by Manson through a combination of social isolation, creation of strong dependency on him, extensive use of LSD-type drugs and moral corruption.
From Dr. A. Tweed's interview of June 15, 1971, pg4,7,8:
.... Every night, while they were under the influence of various drugs, Manson would work through their fear and resistance against killing. ... He became so confused during that period that he began to see imaginary people which were being "killed" in these situations which Manson was creating for them to visualize. .....
...Thus, Watson, while in a highly suggestible state of intoxication was gradually desensitized to believe that to kill was not wrong and robot like he was able to carry out the wishes of his master and dissociate his feelings from the action. This seems borne out by the cold, detached manner in which the acts were accomplished. All the while only hearing the voice of Manson within him computing his every action. He actually believed at the time that they were really imaginary people. It was in such a drug induced psychotic condition that the acts were carried out.
....At the time of commission of the alleged offense, while he did have the mental capacity to form the specific intent to commit murder, this was only because he had been brainwashed, programmed and desensitized to believe that such acts in themselves were not wrong and that what he was doing was right."
Manson was certainly a "master manipulator". He'd been in prison, plus he knew effect of drugs, plus many of the young girls he recruited had no "worldly" experience. Manson knew exactly what he was doing, unfortunately, his followers did not. There are many examples of "crazy" people being able to manipulate others, often to the detriment of others.
Here's a more recent example. This woman got people to give her billions of dollars for nothing. can't touch this
Leslie's getting out. https://www.facebook.com/cielodrivecom/
Nope, not yet. Newsom can direct his AG to file a motion with the California Supreme Court, which, on a 2-1 appellate decision, makes sense. Once before the SC, a couple of things could happen. LVH could be freed, she could remain incarcerated, she could be released pending review. This is far from over. As Newsom continues his shadow presidential run, he understands that capitulating on something so infamous can be very damaging politically.
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