Sunday, July 17, 2022

Mark Ross (Aesop Aquarian) Biography

The following is a detailed biography of Mark Ross written by Gary Baum for "The Hollywood Reporter" (July 15,2022). Click the Link Below to read:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/aesop-aquarian-life-story-manson-family-1235180433/


My Review:

I was happy to see that the author (Baum) confirmed Ross' death. For weeks, I was searching for something (that I could share publicly) as proof of his passing. This article fits the bill.

Baum does a good job of recounting Ross' wealthy upbringing in Brentwood, Los Angeles. It seems Ross rubbed elbows with several celebrities. This is contrasted with Ross' dysfunctional home life. In short, "the core issue in our family was that there just wasn’t much love". Ross' younger brother explains how Mark got into "tons of trouble". He was sent to boarding school as a problem child. But again, it was a boarding school catering to rich kids. Ross had a short stint with the Marines.

Ultimately, Ross aspired to be an actor. He held mostly small roles. To quote Baum, "He was a bit player, not a leading man, making ends meet with background work, music gigs and assorted side hustles".

Ross bumps into Susan Bartell and Madeline Cottage while they are panhandling in Santa Monica. Ross invites them to stay at his house in Venice and the rest is history.

Worthy of note regarding timeline: 
Ross became involved with "The Manson Family" following the TLB murders, but before the perpetrators were charged. "The notorious Tate-LaBianca murders had occurred the previous summer, but the culprits had not yet been apprehended"

Manson was being held on auto theft charges when Ross entered the scene. According to Baum, "Ross got to know Manson only during prison visits, which were encouraged by Family members". While being held on those auto theft charges, Manson was indicted for the TLB murders.

As we know, John Philip Haught died from a gunshot wound in Ross' apartment. To his credit, Baum invests considerable time and effort discussing several reasons why Zero's death has always been considered suspicious. I think this was a classy move, because no discussion of Zero can be complete without underscoring the questionable circumstances surrounding his death. Ross on the other hand, is much more dismissive of the murder theory, simply stating: "Perhaps it had been a game of Russian roulette, or a suicide. At least those were the theories offered to me by my housemates" (paraphrased). 

Starviego mentions on a previous post that Ross was the owner of the revolver used in Zero's death. If that is indeed the case, I feel Baum should have mentioned that information in the article. That's significant information. That might also explain why Ross is so dismissive and evasive of the murder theory?

Another thing that struck me as an oversight, is that Baum never mentions that Paul Watkins was sleeping inside Ross' vehicle when it was torched. Again, I think that's significant information. And once again, Ross is dismissive: "Maybe it (the fire) was just an accident. Mercury could well have been in retrograde".

According to Baum, Ross decided to leave (The Family) when Family members asked Ross to kill Bugliosi and the Judge. This is brand new to me. I'm not making any judgements either way, except to say, I've never heard this information shared before...

And Finally, of course, we have the famous "Manson" movie. I think it's safe to say, that Ross' connection to this famous movie is his most recognizable affiliation with "The Family".

In Baum's words:
Yet before Aesop severed ties with the Family, he claims he proposed the idea for, and brokered the necessary participation required to complete "Manson", which was nominated for a best documentary feature Oscar in 1973. The co-directors, Robert Hendrickson and Laurence Merrick — respectively, a fellow student at his acting school and the teacher of their class — have both since died. 

From there, Baum does a great job of chronicling Ross' adventures and misadventures through several more decades. I will leave that to your own reading.

Best Regards, LS

145 comments:

starviego said...


Question #1: Why would the Hollywood Reporter be doing a feature length story on a nobody like Mark Ross to begin with?

sunset77 said...

I can't tell what brand that motorcycle is from the photo, but I'd say there's a good chance its a Triumph. The dual throttle cables are hanging out of the right side of the bike dangerously, not in the holder. They can easily catch on something a cause a crash. It also appears there is no cable at all on the front brake lever on the right side of the bike, for the front drum brake. The front edge of the front fender and the fender stay just behind it look almost exactly like the fender and stay on my Triumph.

"Fonzie" on the TV show "Happy Days" rode a Triumph, although he apparently just drifted it around as actor Henry Winkler apparently didn't know how to ride a motorcycle. Evel Knievel started out riding Triumphs until Harley Davidson paid him a ton of money to ride their bikes. Steve McQueen rode a Triumph in the movie "The Great Escape" as did all the other Nazi's. While it's possible the Nazi's had Triumph motorcycles at "Luft Stalag III" I don't think it's likely. Although there was a Triumph factory in Germany at one time and the Nazi's rode many types of motorcycles, many of them captured.

My dad rode Triumphs in the 1960's with a guy named Joe Hemmis that modified them for hill climbing. There was much competition between all the brands of bikes back in those days. My uncle riding an Indian raced a guy on a Harley up a steep mountain road. The Harley guy got mad and turned around halfway up because he was so far behind. Glory Days

grimtraveller said...

starviego said:


Question #1: Why would the Hollywood Reporter be doing a feature length story on a nobody like Mark Ross to begin with?

Probably for much the same reasons we have a post about him here.
Anything to sell a story. And let's face it, he had an interesting story.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset! I don't know anything about this guy...

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

I don't know anything about this guy...

He was a good friend of Robert Hendrickson and was playing a leading role in a film Robert was making when he told Robert about these 'musician' friends of his that were crashing at his pad. They turned out to be members of the Family and Ross suggested Robert put aside the film he was making and do one on these friends of his, and their leader, who was in jail......

sunset77 said...

I just had time to read the entire article linked in this post, it's a VERY good article. I wish had time to read it about 3 more times and look up all the references. Over the years I've ran across many people "name dropping" claiming to be associated with Manson or the victims, most are pretty "sketchy". In this case though, I'd guess most if not every single reference to "famous" people is accurate. (there is film, video or photos in most instances)

I really only "know" Mark Ross from the Hendrickson film "Inside the Manson Gang", particularly near the beginning when Ross walks in on a group of Manson followers and a female voice (I think "Cappy" Gilles) says "Mark" as if she's glad to see him. I think she then awkwardly says "hello". They all appear to be pretty stoned on drugs.

Ross apparently left the Manson family after his van burned up, suspiciously. There is reference to Ross being in a body cast from the waist down after a motorcycle crash. I'm not surprised after seeing those throttle cables sticking out in that photo. They can catch on something and yank the handlebars to the right. He was apparently on "The Gong Show" at one point, season 1 episode 34, I haven't found video of it, (at least not yet). He was apparently associated with another "spiritual group", led by "Father Yod" That group had a "rock band", there is at least one video on YouTube of "Ya Ho Wha 13".

Also, there is reference to "relatives dying in the ovens". I've studied the Holocaust for decades, generally, people didn't "die in the ovens", they were gassed in a gas chamber first, then their corpses were incinerated in the ovens. Most in Auschwitz, over 1,000,000. The people that were forced to work in the crematoriums were called "sonderkommando" (special squad). A few of them survived and wrote books. Those are some of the saddest and most disgusting stories I've ever read in my life.

In any case, thanx for the article. I'll try to look into it more when I have more time.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset & Grim.

I read thru the article and it amazes me how many young people in CA that came from rich families seemed to choose cult life instead of having money. Did he ever get any money from an inheritance?

It sounds like he was feeling comfortable with the Manson family life until they told him to go kill Bugliosi and the judge. I can see why he got an uncomfortable vibe.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Sunset.

I did a quick read-thru of the article when I first posted it.

I intend to read it more closely and write a review/synopsis when I have a chance.
Unfortunately, I've been dealing with some important family matters.

The author was certainly thorough, that's for sure.
I've found several bits and pieces of information regarding Ross (here and there) throughout the years, but I've never seen his entire story told in one place.
In that respect, it's unique.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Starviego asked:

Question #1: Why would the Hollywood Reporter be doing a feature length story on a nobody like Mark Ross to begin with?

I wouldn't consider Ross a "key player", but in total, he probably had more contact with the family than some of the other characters we've discussed at length in the past.

Some names that come to mind (as a comparison):

Alvin Karpis
Anton LaVey
Bryn Lukashevski
Cami Sebring
Charlene Cafritz
Claire Vaye Watkins
Doris Day
Frank Retz
James Willett
William Zamora
Marina Habe
Neil Young
Paul Crockett
Phil Kaufman
Samantha Geimer

To name a few...

Frank Retz and Paul Crocket might be a stretch, but you get the idea. The notion that any of those characters had more contact with "The Family" is debatable.

Lesser characters have spawned lengthy discussions both here and elsewhere.

I'm tempted to throw Winifred Chapman on that list too. Again, it's debatable, but one could make an argument for it...

katie8753 said...

Tony Dow on Leave it to Beaver died. At least I think he did. First they said he died, then they said he didn't, then they said he did.

I love that show.

katie8753 said...

If Zero's death was a suicide, why were there no prints on the gun? Wouldn't it be less suspicious if Zero's prints were on the gun? The only reason I can think of to wipe prints off the gun is to make sure the killer's prints were wiped clean.

beauders said...

Oh Katie, now I've seen it all! What detective caries around a 'digit' to prove someone (Sheila) is dead?

katie8753 said...

I know, how stupid was that? Like the Forresters are all experts on what Sheila's toe looks like. LOL. When and where did she get mauled by a bear? Last I saw of her, she was hiding out in Deacon's dump.

beauders said...

There is no way I'm going to believe Sheila got ate by a bear, unless they can get her DNA out of it's poop. The actress just signed a new contract, but maybe she is going back to The Young and The Restless, which is boring Sheila would be a plus. There's a new older Douglas, which sucks because I liked the old Douglas. How hot is it where you are in Texas, Katie. We had almost a whole week over 100 degrees, which is really for Portland. Tons of wildfires all up and down the west coast. Summer really sucks.

katie8753 said...

I didn't know they got a new Douglas. I was listening to the show but not really watching it last week. That sucks. I liked that little Douglas. He was a good actor.

It's been 100 degrees or over here almost every day since end of May with little rain. It's depressing because almost everybody's yard is dead. Hopefully September will be a little cooler.

I know it's hard on the West Coast to be hot because you're not prepared for it. Hang in there. It'll get better!

beauders said...

Katie, why does Brooke think she has any say in where Douglas lives? Douglas should live with his dad in my opinion. Brooke is such a busybody, she drives me crazy.

katie8753 said...

Brooke and Hope don't have any say where Douglas lives, but they're gonna keep yakking about how they can control where he lives because they think they are superior to the Forresters.

And what's even crazier is that Deacon is letting Sheila crash his pad, knowing that if he's caught he'll go back to jail. The same Sheila that cut her toe off. LOL.

But at least the Sheila thing is getting more interesting.

beauders said...

We had a mass shooting in Bend yesterday and that is where the scariest Manson Woman lives, Nancy Pitman. Wonder if one of her Nazi/Aryan Brotherhood sons was involved?

beauders said...

Katie did Hope actually adopt Douglas?

katie8753 said...

I don't remember if she adopted him or not. But she's NOT his mother!!

beauders said...

As an adopted person, and I was adopted at birth, I feel the mother who raised me is my real mother, not my birth mother. My adopted sister has a relationship with her birth mother, but she calls her Sharon and my sister's kids call grandma Sharon, not mother or grandmother.

beauders said...

Katie, I wasn't criticizing what you believe about adoption, everyone has a different opinion. One of my closest friends thought I didn't have a mother because I was adopted. When I told her that an adoptive mother is a mother in spirit she got it. My parents treated my sister and I the same as they treated their birth sons.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I wasn't ignoring you because of what you said about adoption. I'm dealing with plumbing problems, computer problems, etc.

I appreciate your feelings about being adopted. I have no idea what that's like. That's gotta be confusing if you meet your birth mother or birth father and have a relationship. It must be like having 4 parents. And hopefully, they all get along!

I'm just saying that Hope, Liam, Brooke & Bill are being busybodies because they suddenly are moral and above everyone. Hope thinks that Douglas should be with Beth 24/7, but Beth is never home anyway. She's always off with some nanny!!

And that mask Sheila wears is just absolutely stupid. Who couldn't see that that's Sheila???

beauders said...

Plumbing and computer problems at the same time stink, sorry Katie.

katie8753 said...

The plumbers were supposed to come over today and ran late. I've gotta wait on them tomorrow too! Uggh!

Okay, here's a blast from the past:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqFjx7l7y48

Dilligaf said...

I shudder at the thought of what “Thank Heaven For Little Girls” reminds him of…..

katie8753 said...

Dill LMAO!!!

beauders said...

Spoiler Alert Katie,
I don't know what was worst today Stephie encouraging Brooke to pursue Ridge or Thomas telling Hope she is Douglas' mother.

katie8753 said...

Beauders, I didn't see today's episode. CBS interrupted it with the news that Queen Elizabeth died today.

I've been kinda sad today... Prince Charles is now the King. I hope he's up for the job.

katie8753 said...

I'm gonna try and quit smoking cigs. I can't tell you how hard that is, but it's the hardest thing I've ever done. If you never started smoking, kudos to you!

Wish me luck. And if anyone has any pointers, please let me know.

beauders said...

Katie try and watch it on youtube. I feel sad as well. Quit smoking it will be hard but it will be worth it.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

Prince Charles is now the King. I hope he's up for the job

Well, he's had 73 years training !

sunset77 said...

Tomorrow is Saturday, it will be either 4 or 5 weeks since I've smoked a cigarette. I had smoked for many years, picked it up when I was in prison, smoked "Bugler" I rolled my own cigarettes everyday. My neighbor is like 79 years old, he's smoked for many years, far more than I did. He comes down here twice a day and we talk, (and smoked cigarettes), already seen him once today, (will see him again later). His wife just died, she was cremated, he's dealing with that right now. I sometimes rub Copenhagen snuff, that probably won't work for women, although my grandmother used to rub snuff.

I had a really bad sinus infection this summer, it basically ruined my summer. It's mostly cleared up, but not all the way, probably never will. That's why I'm trying to stop smoking. It's going to be hard, I still have lots of tobacco, papers and rollers in the house, I should probably get rid of them. Good Luck!

katie8753 said...

Grim I've heard a lot of different things about King Charles III. Evidently there's a certain protocol for a Prince-In-Waiting, and a different one for a King. I'm sure he's been advised on which opinions he can verbalize and which he can't. I've admired Queen Elizabeth for many years now. I know he can't be her, but I hope he can come close!

katie8753 said...

Sunset congrats on the 4 or 5 weeks smokeless.

I started today out with the thought that I just won't light up a cigarette or smoke it, but that went by the wayside at 7:00am this morning. Sigh. I talked to a friend last night who quit using a vape. I guess I could try that. For me, smoking is more about a habit than an addiction. And habits are really hard to break!!

BTW my granddad quit smoking back in the 40's and he kept a pack of Chesterfields in the drawer of his bedside table because he said that helped him to quit smoking, knowing it was there if he needed it.

Fullbug said...

That's crazy but I distinctly remember that Gong Show performance.

beauders said...

Katie I am so bored with Ridge/Taylor/Brooke triangle and the Stephie/Thomas continued hounding of their parents. Have you been able to stay away from the cigarettes? It's ok to have a slip just try to not have a second cigarette if you do.

katie8753 said...

Beauders, I asked my son how many times you can say the same thing over and over, even changing the dialog by a couple of words. Because that's what Stephie & Thomas have been doing for the past couple of weeks. All of the writers must be on vacation. Although Friday it got a little interesting when it looked like Thomas might attack Brooke with that little paring knife. LOL.

No I'm still smoking. I guess I'm just weak.

beauders said...

You can quit Katie, I know its hard, I'm quitting vicadin, which I've taken daily for 20 years, I'm half way, and now I'm committed.

sunset77 said...

It's hard to quit something like cigarettes, I had to, I had a bad sinus infection, my sinuses are still messed up, they probably will be for the rest of my life. I just simply quit on a Saturday I guess 5 or 6 weeks ago now. I miss it sometimes, especially after meals. I rub Copenhagen snuff, that helps me, but probably wouldn't work for most people. They make nicotine patches, I thought about trying them, but I don't think I'm going to have to now. I smoked those nasty prison cigarettes that I rolled myself and didn't have filters. In any case, it's hard to quit. My dad said 5 years after he quit smoking, he was still reaching for cigarettes.

Good luck.

beauders said...

Katie, if Brooke and Liam have an affair I might have to stop watching. Remember she had an affair with her other daughter's husband, so I wouldn't put it past her.

katie8753 said...

Beauders it never even entered my mind that Liam and Brooke would have an affair. I agree, that would be beyond tacky, even for Brooke!

beauders said...

Katie, he's hanging out at her house some.

katie8753 said...

Taylor should hook up with Dollar Bill!

beauders said...

I think Li is going to end up with Dollar Bill.

beauders said...

I find it suspicious Brooke is spending a lot of alone time with Liam. I think Brooke would go there with Liam in the right situation. Hopefully Liam would never go there with Brooke. I predict trouble for Hope and Liam. Hope just saw Thomas with his shirt off and seemed to like what she was seeing. Hope and Liam do not agree on Thomas and Douglas, he agrees with the liar Brooke. I think we are being set up for some shifting alliances.

katie8753 said...

Is it my imagination or is Ridge's voice getting more grizzly and yucky? I think Liam is creepy.

beauders said...

A lot of the characters are kind of creepy. Ridge's voice is gross hurts my ears but that's his real voice, he was on All My Children and his voice was the same. Wasn't the other Ridge handsome? I would say this Ridge is rugged, which doesn't match his character. I'm beginning to think of the show as The Bold & The Bratty because of Stephie and Thomas and their inability to see their father is in love with Brooke and is not in love with their mother.

katie8753 said...

That's what I was thinking on Friday. Taylor & Ridge are acting "bratty" because he kept chasing her and she kept running away. How childish!

The Forrester Jet is ruining the environment because they keep flying back and forth to Aspen. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Oh Beauders, you beat me to the punch! I was gonna tell you the old Douglas was back! Hoo Hoo!!!!

katie8753 said...

Well let's see. Sheila stole some wine and steaks from the only restaurant in Los Angeles. And Thomas has a new app that lets him talk like Brooke. Just another day on B&B.

beauders said...

Of course, psycho Thomas is responsible for Brooke's phone call to the authorities. Doesn't Thomas understand once the truth comes out, and it will because this is a soap opera, he is setting up his mom to have a lot of pain, when Ridge goes back to Brooke. My niece had her baby girl. I am a great aunt three times now and my sister is a first-time grandma. My brother Gregg, who died at 44 of a heart attack during a seizure, is a grandpa twice over. He would love his grandkids so much, I hope he is watching over them.

katie8753 said...

Congrats Beauders!! I'm having some health problems myself. Went to the Dr. today and I've lost a lot of weight. My blood pressure was extremely low, which explains why I'm so tired all the time. My doctor ordered me back tomorrow.

I'm one of the old-timer TLBers. We're pretty much a generation that's pretty much gone. Just like Manson.

Fun times!

sunset77 said...

Take care of yourself Katie. Watch your blood pressure. My mom and dad are both in their 80's. My dad takes like 12 pills three times a day. He's been in bad shape for 20 years. Doctors, hospitals and pills have basically kept him alive, with a decent quality of life for many years.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset. I appreciate the concern!!

beauders said...

How are you doing Katie?

Bobby said...

My new co worker went by squeaky 's place last weekend. He has family in Marcy and visited a junk yard next to her place. I asked him to stop and say hi to her but he didn't. Lol.

Bobby said...

Katie, I'm praying for your good health to return. Love you. Bob

katie8753 said...

Thanks Bobby!!! Love you too!!!

Beauders I'm hanging in there. Checking my BP every day and recording it. It's been around normal.

I missed B&B Friday and will miss again tomorrow because of Dr's appointments. Let me know if anything interesting happens.

beauders said...

Katie, Quinn has moved out of Carter's apartment, and he's flirting with Katie. The actress who plays Quinn has left the show.

beauders said...

Oh and Thomas and Hope kissed, at least I think they did, but it could be a fantasy. Liam stopped Brooke from drinking.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders. I didn't know Quinn was leaving the show.

beauders said...

Yes she did it makes me kinda sad as I always like the complicated villain's best. How are you feeling Katie?

katie8753 said...

I'm feeling better Beauders. Thanks.

I watched a movie the other day called The Black Phone. There was a character in that movie who looked and sounded just like Charles Manson. Then I got to thinking, whatever happened to Manson's body? Weren't there people fighting over it?? Can't remember.

beauders said...

They had a funeral for Manson, attended by fans and friends including Sandra Good. His body was moldy as he was kept in refrigeration and not frozen. I believe that was on purpose by the prison morgue as revenge for the pain in the ass he was. After the funeral his body was cremated and the cremains were given to his grandson. They took his remains to a creek or river in California. The people who went to the water with Manson's grandson, again with Sandra Good in tow, started to put the ashes in the water and decided it would be a good idea to rub Mansons ashes on themselves again including Sandra Good. (She is so tiny, I never knew she was so little). Sound like fun, huh Katie? There is program called "Manson's Funeral," which was on the Reelz Channel and can probably be found online, for those who are curious.

beauders said...

Ok I looked it up and you can rent/buy Manson's funeral on Youtube. It is well worth $3.99 (the cheapest rental price) to watch this spectacle. The only person with any common sense is the grandson's wife. Enjoy.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders! EWWWW!!! LOL.

beauders said...

It's appropriate Manson was moldy green.

beauders said...

Geez Katie, Ridge left Brooke 12 hours ago and she is already getting proposals from admirers. How ridiculous. I still don't trust Brooke with Liam, they are spending a lot of alone time together.

katie8753 said...

Yeah Beauders, the wolves are coming out of the woodwork to "marry Brooke". Who would want to marry her? She's a L-O-S-E-R and not even divorced yet!

I agree. Liam is way too close to Brooke. These writers are smoking crack! Reminds me of when Quinn kidnapped Liam and "did stuff to him". LOL.

katie8753 said...

Eye Of The Devil is on TCM right now. I never saw that movie.

katie8753 said...

Okay that movie was DUMB and boring! LOL.

katie8753 said...

Beauders did you see the "show stopper" that Hope was wearing? BORING!

beauders said...

I find all the fashion shows boring and I fast forward for most of them. Why does Wyatt not have a storyline, his mother just left the show?

beauders said...

I still want to know what happened to the kitten Liam gave to the other Hope, when she was waffling between Liam and Wyatt? Did she leave the kitten in Paris? Pets are for the life of the pet and Bold and the beautiful has not given the story of the kitten justice. LOL

katie8753 said...

I know, the fashion shows are just plain stupid. Those clothes aren't interesting. They're mediocre at best.

I don't know what happened to the kitten. And it's strange that Wyatt didn't mention his mother leaving. And what's more strange is that Bill is professing love to Brooke, when 2 months ago he was trying to get Katie back. What a loser!

I predict that Brooke and Bill will hook up, and Ridge will get jealous. And here we go again!

beauders said...

Katie, I think B&B would be really interesting if the writers shook things up and had Hope turn to Thomas and leave Liam.

beauders said...

Also, I grew up around horses and Bill acting like a stallion is just gross. Speaking of gross check out a documentary called "Zoo."

katie8753 said...

Beauders I think Thomas is gonna go "all wacko" again and get dangerous. And yes Bill is sickening. He's going after his wife's sister. Disgusting. And what is going on between Deacon and Sheila. He keeps telling her she's going back to jail, then he takes her on a "date" at the only restaurant in Los Angeles???

beauders said...

Katie, Douglas does not like lies...I don't see things turning out good for Grandma Taylor. I met my Great Neice Ava last week, she is eight pounds of squirmy sweetness. She looks just like her mom and my sister.

beauders said...

I wonder if Brooke told Katie that Bill has already approached her with a ring and an offer of marriage.

katie8753 said...

Yeah Douglas is gonna blow the whistle on Thomas for making that call. And I don't think Katie cares what Bill does, now that she's so into Carter. But I wonder who's watching Katie's son since she seems to be at Brooke's house 24/7.

Congrats on the great niece!!

katie8753 said...

Carter overheard Dollar Bill talking to Brooke again, after he snuck into the right window and Carter was gonna sneak into the left window to get those cuff links. Brook needs to close those windows.

Meanwhile, Steffy and Taylor were acting like geek girls, trying to "get her ready" by putting pins in her hair. Taylor acts like a child, swooning around and giggling. Doesn't really act like a professional psychiatrist.

Sigh.....

sunset77 said...

Has anyone been following the murders of the 4 Idaho college students? It happened about a week ago now, no one has been caught. Apparently, 4 students were massacred by someone with a "large knife". 2 students were apparently in the house when it happened, but weren't attacked for some reason. Idaho Student Murders

katie8753 said...

Sunset I've been following that case too. It's extremely bizarre. Why aren't the 2 students who were in the house considered suspects? And how can 1 person kill 4 people? Weren't 2 of the victims men? You'd think they could overpower the person, unless they were drugged or something. At first the cops said there wasn't any danger for others living in this community, now they're changing their story. There's a video of the 2 girl victims getting something to eat or drink on the street and supposedly 2 guys have been spotted on that video that are suspects.

sunset77 said...

Katie, yes it is kind of strange. 3 of the victims were girls, one was a boy, apparently there were 2 other girls in the house that weren't killed. I'm thinking the 2 surviving girls aren't suspects, for one reason, just by the way they look. They are kind of petite small girls. It takes a special kind of crazy to butcher 4 people with a large knife, someone like "Tex" Watson, a former high school football player.

I'm in 2 Facebook groups of "internet sleuths" tracking the case, 98% of the stuff they post is garbage, but they find all the accounts of the victims social media and post links to the ones that haven't been removed. It's been over a week since the murders, so apparently the it's not obvious to police who the murderer/s is. But yes, it's pretty strange. The attack occurred around 3 a.m., the 911 call came in at 11:58 around 8 or 9 house later. The police said the victims were probably sleeping when they were attacked.

beauders said...

Those of you interested in the Idaho student murders should look up Danny Rolling. Rolling was a serial killer who murdered 5 students in Gainesville Florida in August 1990. He killed them over a period of 4 days. One girl in each household was raped by Rolling. These murders seem similar, even though none of these students were raped. The killer was most likely watching the house and saw the 4 return at about 1:45am and assumed there were only 4 persons in the house. The two survivors were very lucky. There was also a dog in the house that didn't bark but remember the dogs at Sharon Tate's and the LaBianca's didn't bark either. I don't think there is a copycat killer of Danny Rolling I just think there is a similarity.

katie8753 said...

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

katie8753 said...

They still don't have a suspect in those Idaho murders, which makes me think either the killer(s) was very smart, or the police are in over their heads. I think it's the latter.

katie8753 said...

Sunset, you mentioned Tex Watson killing people with a knife, and I got to thinking that one big reason Tex was able to subdue and kill 4 people in that house was because he also had a gun. I don't think the girls were that much help. In fact, Susan was more of a detriment than a plus.

If Tex had been overpowered by Jay & Voytek and they were all arrested that night, I wonder if the LaBiancas would have lived. Or would Charlie just have picked someone else to kill the Labiancas the next night??

Tex was a lot taller than Jay or Voytek, but Voytek was obviously a fighter.

sunset77 said...

Katies, Yes, Watson had a gun, but it was a small gun. A .22 is not powerful at all, they aren't even legal to use to hunt deer. That pistol held nine rounds, as best I can tell, he never reloaded. One thing I remember very clearly about the pistol my dad had that was similar, when I ejected the spent shell casings, they made a distinctive "tinkling" sound if they landed on a hard surface like concrete, or asphalt. I've never heard of Tex, the girls, or anyone else mention hearing that sound, and Tex never mentioned reloading in his book.

So it he started out with 9 rounds in the pistol, (or less), they were the only shots he fired. If I remember correctly, he fired 4 shots at Steve Parent, I don't remember where the shots struck his body, but I seem to remember they might have been fatal. That leaves 5 rounds to used on Jay and Voytek. That would mean 3 on person and 2 on the other, or some other combination of 5, (or less) assuming he didn't miss with any of the shot. I think Jay and Voytek's autopsy report are posted online, I don't remember exactly how many gunshots stuck them and where they stuck them without looking it up. However, a .22 round to the arm or abdomen might not be fatal at all. In high school, one of my buddies was accidentally shot in the thigh with a .22. It just left a small scar where it went in, and where it came out.

It seems to me, Watson says in his book Atkins wanted him to use the gun to shoot someone, however, Watson responded, "the gun is broke" or something like that. Watson had apparently used the gun as a hammer and broke one side of the grip off the police eventually found. Whether the gun was actually broken, or just out of ammo, I don't know.

Watson claimed to have a "chrome plated bayonet". I don't think it's ever been found. Personally, I wouldn't describe a bayonet as a "knife". I guess technically it is, but it's a military "knife" designed for killing people. A college room mate had one from his military service, it was very heavy, and seemed very deadly just from holding it in my hand. It seems to me the autopsy drawings seem to indicate nearly all the stab on the victims at the "Tate house", the LaBianca's, and Donald "Shorty" Shea are all very similar, possibly, if not probably the result of Watson's bayonet. The only knife wound I've wondered about for many years is the slash on Abigail Folger's face. I've often wondered if Waston did that, or Krenwinkel. That wound was a "slash" type wound, not a "stab" like the others. I think both Watson and Krenwinkel both said she was unable to kill Folger, so she yelled for Tex.

Watson was a strong high school football player, and hopped up on drugs. The people in the house didn't have much of chance with him having a pistol and bayonet. If he had been caught at the "Tate house", I don't know if the LaBianca murders would have happened the next night. Possibly not though, as the police might have went to Spahn and arrested others there. Or it's possible, Manson might not have even been implicated. Watson and the girls might not have talked, and the police might have only blamed Watson and the girls. It's hard to speculate about something like that.

No, they haven't arrested anyone in the Idaho student murders yet that I know of, it's been 2 weeks. The police keep saying it was "targeted" but they won't say who or why they were targeted. Apparently, the mother of one of the victims has been arrested many times for drugs. I'm not going to mention which one, but what is "probably" her arrest record was posted in one of my Facebook groups, I looked online and found it myself. It's possible her daughter was targeted over some type of sketchy drug deal, non payment, snitching, etc.

beauders said...

Does anyone remember the name of the sporting goods store the Manson Family had the shootout at? Patty Hearst had a shootout at a sporting goods store on Crenshaw in Los Angeles. I doubt they were the same place, but still wondering.

sunset77 said...

beauders, I think the store the Manson family tried to rob was a "Western Surplus" store. It became known as the "Hawthorne Street Shootout". I read a story once about Catherine "Gypsy" Share firing the first shot, (like it was the battle of Bunker Hill). Here's blog post about it on another blog--Hawthorne Street Shootout

I'm not sure what store/s Patty Hearst tried to rob.

beauders said...

Thanks Sunset, that's the place. Patty Hearst shot up a Mels Sporting shop on Crenshaw Blvd. One of the SLA members shoplifted some meaningless item was caught and was being handcuffed, when Hearst in their van noticed and grabbed a gun and shot up the entrance of the store thus causing enough fear and distraction to allow her comrades to escape, even though Bill Harris still had a handcuff on one wrist. Remember Gypsy and the police were quite having the gun battle that someone shot off her bloodied bra. It was found later in the back of the van. The 70's were great days in Southern California.

sunset77 said...

I've never been anywhere near California. When I was kid in the 60's and growing up in the 70's, I only ever saw the "magic" of Disney and Hollywood, especially working at a drive in theater. It wasn't until I was in college in the early 80's that I noticed there might be an "underbelly". Frank Zappa is pretty much an acquired taste--Flakes

beauders said...

Wow Katie, the toe has reappeared.

beauders said...

Through research they will find out that Sheila was alive when the toe came off, which doesn't really mean anything, because Shelia could have died after the bear bit her toe off.

katie8753 said...

Beauders, that toe was grody! But not as grody as Sheila looks with her stupid "disguise". That whole scenario that Sheila was killed by a bear because they found her "toe" was just silly.

They still haven't found out who killed those 4 students in Idaho. Maybe someone will start blabbing like Susan Atkins did in jail.

I think Thomas is gonna go "all psycho" on folks because he was caught with the fake call....

beauders said...

Katie, Bill is ping ponging. I think the students were murdered by another student. It's going to be hard to solve.

katie8753 said...

"Dollar Bill" is turning into "Loose Change Bill". He's off his rocker.

You know, if Susan hadn't bragged about the Cielo Drive murders, they may never have figured out what happened those nights. Who would've thought hippies would kill people.

I think another student was involved too. I also think there's something odd about those 2 girls who were there and lived. They had to have heard something. And why kill 4 people when there were 6 there?

sunset77 said...

I've been following that case in Idaho since the day it happened, it's been nearly 4 weeks now. I'm in 2 Facebook groups that follow the case, plus I check Reddit. Every crazy theory you can imagine is posted in those groups, they look up every family member, every friend, the police are even complaining about "internet sleuths" and threatening to file charges.

The police won't release any information and they still claim to have no suspect. The police have changed their story at least 3 times, first saying it was "targeted", then saying "not targeted" now back to "targeted" again. First it was a "Ka-bar" knife, now it's a "fixed blade" knife. They said some of the students returned to the house in an "Uber" ride, now they rode with a "private citizen". That's what's fueling this wild and rampant speculation, plus, there's still a mass murderer running loose.

There was a call to police around the time of the murders very near where they occurred. It was apparently a drunk and disorderly call, there is body cam video from the cop. The police said that call was not related to the murders. A person in one of my Facebook groups cropped and zoomed in on a tiny bit of the body cam video. Of course I don't know it it's "fake" but if it's "real", it sure looks like the heads of 4 or 5 people running past a light very near where the murders occurred at the time they occurred. I don't know if any of those people have even been identified. I'll try to post a link to the Facebook video--Idaho Body Cam Video

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset. This reminds me of when Ted Bundy broke into that sorority house in Florida and attacked 4 women that were sleeping. I think 2 of them survived, but he was able to get in and out very quickly, and no one else in the house heard a thing.

I saw where the police decided it was a "targeted" attack, then it wasn't, then it was. Now they're saying the house itself was targeted. I'm not sure what that means. I just can't help but feel bad for the parents of the "targeted" person, that somehow that person caused all of this. I hope they don't feel that way.

beauders said...

Well Katie, Brooke and Taylor have both dumped Ridge, I wonder which one will cave first?

beauders said...

By the way, why is Bill so desperate? I was hoping for new blood, possibly Li.

katie8753 said...

Watching Taylor & Brooke giggle and hug made me SICK! Next week they'll both be seeing Ridge behind each other's backs.

I don't know why Bill is so desperate. He's always telling Brooke & Katie he loves them. Next he'll go after Donna.

beauders said...

Katie, I am already bored with Carter and Katie. Two boring characters should not be put together, it leads to a boring show. Carter was as least a little interesting because of Quinn.

beauders said...

Katie if you have time you should check out General Hospital. The woman who plays Pam on B&B is now on GH. I thought we were not seeing her much was because her husband was killed in a freak accident, he was hit by a car. Well now she is on GH and she plays a character who makes toe chopper Sheila look like a girl scout. She does homicidal psychopath great.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders, I'll check that soap out!

Merry Christmas to everyone!

beauders said...

Katie, now Brooke and Taylor are BBF's, gag me. What the hell is going on with Bill and Shelia hope it's a bad dream.

beauders said...

Katie, I just finished B&B for this week. Bill and Sheila, what the hell, is he under some kind of mind control? This is just bizarre, and I certainly did not see this coming.

katie8753 said...

I know Beauders, I couldn't believe it when Bill defended and kissed Sheila. She must have put some kind of voodoo spell on him. Bill goes from being all macho to being a sniveling crybaby.

The writers have just given up on any good writing.

katie8753 said...

BTW they made an arrest in the Idaho murder case. Some guy in Pennsylvania. They had a press conference today but they're not releasing much info, so I don't know why they think he did it. Something about the car he was driving.

beauders said...

I saw that Katie, Moscow, Idaho is about 5 hours east of Portland. Idaho, Montana, Washington, and Oregon are the states that the Pacific Northwest consist of. It will be interesting to see what his motive is. Is it too early to say incel? Well, his goose is truly cooked if he killed the four and Idaho does have the death penalty.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I'm not sure what prompted them to arrest this guy, but I'm assuming they have a lot of evidence against him to charge him with murder. Supposedly they won't release the evidence against him until he is extradited back to Idaho. He's currently in Pennsylvania.

Dill, with your legal experience & Sunset, having followed this crime, please weigh in on this. I'm hoping they weren't pressured so much to find a suspect that they just charged a likely suspect of murder,and have the wrong guy.

The guy is currently pursuing a PhD in Criminology and they suspect that he thought he was smarter than law enforcement and could pull off the "perfect crime".

They are now comparing this killer to Ted Bundy, which I already did a couple of weeks ago.

beauders said...

Sad news all, Barbara Walters has died at 93. She was a great woman, who opened so many doors for women in journalism. She was one of my heroes.

beauders said...

According to Ashleigh Banfield, on News Nation the police have DNA on this guy in the murder house. The white Hyundai that they have been searching for is owned by this guy and is with him in Pennsylvania. Hopefully this is the guy, I have no reason suspect he isn't the right person.

sunset77 said...

From what I can gather, the Kohberger they arrested for the Idaho murders was found by using "genetic genealogy". They apparently sent a sample of "unknown" DNA to a genealogy firm like ancestory, and it pointed to him. Plus he drives a white Elantra. They had apparently been following him for 4 days before his arrest.

He is apparently "weird", with OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder). An aunt that didn't want to be identified said he was "beyond vegan", asking them to get rid of cooking pots that had ever been used to cook meat. People that know him are coming out of the woodwork. One woman in my Facebook group apparently waited on him at a restaurant. I think his mother was there with a party of 5 and they requested dimmer lighting.

Just because they found his DNA at the crime scene and he drives a white Elantra, that's not evidence of murder. Police haven't said exactly where or what DNA evidence they found. It was a party house, it's possible his DNA got there innocently, but that remains to be seen.

His extradition hearing is scheduled for Jan. 3. You can find the court documents in a PDF file by following one of the links from this web page--Heavy

Dilligaf said...

It is not surprising that some evidence was held back while working this case. It will be interesting to see where alleged DNA from the suspect was recovered. The story going around was that it was familial DNA that pointed investigators to the suspect, all while portraying that there was not much progress being made. A shrewd move? Possibly, but we will have to see this playout.

katie8753 said...

Thanks guys! I'm hoping we can find out more tomorrow. I bought a Globe magazine the other day and they're comparing these murders to TLB, even saying there were bloody messages written on the wall. I don't recall hearing that.

sunset77 said...

I haven't heard anything about bloody messages written and the crime scene in Idaho, I would kind of doubt it though. It seems to me, at the TLB crime scenes, they didn't write messages until after all the victims were killed. I think Van Houten even took a shower at the LaBianca's. In Idaho, apparently, there were still 2 people alive in the house. I don't think that guy would have taken time to write messages on the wall, (although it's certainly possible). There are photos of what is apparently blood seeping out of the house. I'm not going to link to those photos as they graphic. Those photos have already been examined by many people, some of them pretty expert.

I don't expect to find out much today, he has an extradition hearing scheduled. Idaho police have said all along they can't release any more info about the case until he is actually in Idaho. Even then, I expect many of the documents to be "redacted" saying things like "we can't release that in an active trial" etc. I don't know if the crime scene photos in Idaho will ever be released, they are often not, so the families of the victims don't have to see that over and over. I don't know how or why the TLB crime scene photos were ever made public, but once they are "out there", they are out there forever.

Bryan Kohberger has an extradition hearing today, if he waives his right to fight extradition, it might take up to 2 weeks for him to actually be transferred back to Idaho. At some point, it's possible, people close to the case might decide to talk, (or be paid to talk) by news outlets. For instance, the 2 surviving room mates. That might shed some light on what took place, or it might be another William Garretson, where he made up stories about "Rosie Tate Polanski" to gain more notoriety and probably get paid.

beauders said...

Sunset, the Tate/LaBianca crime scene and autopsy photo's were either stolen from Deemer by Bill Nelson or Alisa Statmen. They each blamed each other. I would say Nelson because it fits in with his personality. I know Statman did steal some more personal pictures taken the day of the murders, from Deemer, of Tate ad returned them to Patty Tate, that is how they met.
Katie, I don't think the killer in Idaho knew there two other women in the house, if he did they would be dead. Do you think Bill on B&B is gaslighting Sheila, that he is just acting like he is in love with Sheila and just wants her in police custody?

katie8753 said...

Beauders I can't figure out what's going on with Bill. He acts like a lost little puppy. Sheila said she'd been living with Bill for a while. When did that happen? Did I skip a paragraph? She just left Deacon's pad a few days ago.

Remember when Bill "turned nice" and rescued Finn's adoptive mother? This guy must have dual personalities.

beauders said...

Well, I think it is very strange that one of girls in the house in Idaho, has claimed she came face to face with the killer. On the phone with 911 later, that the one of the girls was hyperventilating and the other was passing out.

sunset77 said...

Many people are speculating about how one of the surviving room mates in Idaho saw the killer, apparently leaving the house, apparently wearing a ski mask, dressed in all black, and didn't call 911 until hours later. It does seem odd and I don't know the answer. These were party girls, she might have been drunk and didn't realize what was going on, and just went back to bed.

The names of the 2 surviving room mates have been posted on the internet since this happened, those girls apparently posted hundreds of photos to social media sites like Tik Tok, VSCO, Instagram, Facebook, etc. I've seen many of them myself. "DM" is the surviving room mate that apparently saw the killer as he fled. She has since made her VSCO account private, but this is a photo of her, along with victim Kaylee Goncalves, that someone apparently saved. DM is on the left

Jack Ducoeur was apparently Kaylee Goncalves boyfriend, they might have broken up, I don't know. MANY people suspected Jack right from the beginning. Apparently, his aunt posted in one of my Facebook groups yesterday:

"I am Jack Ducoeur‘s aunt, Brooke Miller. I do not speak whatsoever for Jack or my sister‘s family, I only speak for myself and my family. We have been through two months of hell. I know everyone was just trying to be detectives and trying to solve this horrific crime but being on the other end of this was unfathomable. I started a GiveSendGo for Kaylee’s family to pay for expert legal advice and possibly a private detective or whatever the family might need in this time of anguish. Thankfully, the nation stepped up and that need was met. Then I found out that Kaylee‘s mom was having a hard time parting with Kaylee‘s new car because when she bought it the week before she was murdered, she said that was one of the happiest days of Kaylee’s life.

I personally asked if I could start a fundraiser for this and reluctantly, her mom agreed, scared of what people might start saying. I started the GoFundMe so that the family could keep that car without worrying about the payments.. Surprisingly and sadly, it was met with so much hate and ugliness that her mom said to go ahead and take it down because they couldn’t handle any more stress or negativity. I honestly can’t imagine what kind of person would care if people wanted to donate to the family to keep Kaylee’s car. I wish I could give them $1 million dollars and I would not care what the F they did with it because they have lost their precious daughter, brutally and senselessly.

 The fact that some people actually tried to report this fundraiser, message me on the site to tell me it is cringeworthy to start the fund etc. and tell me to take it down is just beyond the scope of what I can fathom. Kaylee, my nephew’s girlfriend of five years,  did break up recently but anyone who has been in long-term relationships would know that this is pretty common, and I am speaking from my own personal experience as I married my high school sweetheart that I started dating the same year that Jack and Kaylee started dating (Sophomore year) and we’ve been married 30 years. I just want to remind people to do better and be kind to people. Life is not about how many clicks, views or likes you get on TikTok or Instagram. It is about the human connection and being empathetic to people who are hurting.

I was so relieved to hear the news of the arrest on the same day of Kaylee and Maddie’s combined final memorial. I hope justice is swift and if convicted, I hope he gets the death penalty within a short amount of time. I do not want my tax dollars to pay for his stay for long and his special “vegan diet” in prison.

By the way, Murphee is doing great, he’s so sweet and our entire huge, close family loves him.
We miss Kaylee beyond any words. ��
God bless you all and good night."

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset & Beauders. This is a most interesting case. It's very much like TLB.

As I said before, how could 1 guy kill 4 people? And now they're saying this killer didn't know any of the victims. That's exactly like TLB.

It's scary to think it happened again.

I've been seeing so many You Tube channels give info on this case. I might start posting some of these, depending on how relevant they are.

Beauders, the B&B is getting more and more weird as the days go by. Something is gonna give!

beauders said...

Katie, I thought Brooke and Taylor were going to kiss this week, which would gross you out.

katie8753 said...

Yeah Beauders I thought they were too. That would probably turn Ridge on, if he didn't have to go to Monaco so he could "think". HA HA.

I love the way Steffy & Taylor just barge right into Bill's house without knocking.

beauders said...

Katie, am I spending too much time on Charlie Manson and Jim Jones? I swear Bill Spencer is under some type of mind control.

katie8753 said...

Something's going on with Bill. Not sure what it is. Maybe he's trying to make Brooke & Katie jealous?? I don't know why he even has a door. Nobody ever knocks, they just waltz right in. When did Sheila walk on the beach with Bill? I must have missed an episode.

katie8753 said...

This clip from Seinfeld reminds me of Charlie. "I know who I am. Do you know who you are?"

HA HA HA!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ13_vMXyCk

BTW, I know the gardener told Garretson to water the yard on Saturday. I wonder if he did it.

katie8753 said...

Beauders, one day Deacon is bartending, sweeping and mopping up Il Giardino. The next day, he owns it! And evidently he's the new cook and he's making his best dish. Pizza! Of course they never have any customers other than themselves. LOL.

A few weeks ago Bill & Deacon were fighting over Brooke. Now they're fighting over Sheila.

The world of Soap Operas.

beauders said...

Katie, I'm waiting for Forester Creations to end up in Thomas's hands, things have gotten so ridiculous. I'm from Half Moon Bay, Ca. and am sad that such a happy place had a mass shooting.

Dilligaf said...

I’m not sure it is such a happy place, given there was a shooting there last year as well. While no one can predict when someone will commit such a crime, two shootings in less than one year, at the same place, does not paint a happy picture of the place…

beauders said...

Large cities have shootings everyday, two shootings in the history of Half Moon Bay is very sad, but it is a happy place, ask anyone who's been there.

Dilligaf said...

As a California person, I have been to Half Moon a few times, and you are right, it is a nice place. But two shootings in the same place, in less than one year, suggest not all is well there. Just an educated observation..

beauders said...

The problem with Half Moon Bay and this is obvious in the reporting is the migrant farm workers are treated like crap. It was that way when I lived there as a child and I guess it still is. I assumed after we left and two golf courses moved in and a lot of people with a lot of money that the way those people were treated would have improved but it is not so. Hopefully, now that will improve, no one in the US should live like migrant field and farm workers.

katie8753 said...

I don't know what Half Moon Bay is, but if Bill cries again on TV I'm gonna throw an ashtray at the TV. Well, not an ashtray I need those, but maybe a lamp. Or maybe a tire iron. If I can find any.

I sound like Mr. Kimball.

katie8753 said...

Does anyone know why there seems to be no videos of when Tyree Nichols was first pulled over? Does anyone have that?

Why were there 5 cops on 1 guy for a routine stop?

sunset77 said...

According to BBC:

While the four videos contain over an hour of footage total, capturing multiple angles taken from police body cameras and a pole-mounted surveillance camera, one crucial element is missing: how did all this begin?

His family has said that Mr Nichols, an avid photographer, was out driving so he could take pictures of the sunset.

Officers initially said Mr Nichols was pulled over for alleged reckless driving, but police on Friday said there is no evidence to substantiate that claim.

The footage released only begins after police confront him at an intersection at 8:24pm local time - police say the initial traffic stop was not filmed but we don't know why.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset. That really is odd.

beauders said...

Katie, Half Moon Bay, California is where I grew up. It is a small farming, beach town about twenty-five minutes south of San Francisco. I was a sick kid, and when we lived in Half Moon Bay it was the first time in my life at six that I was perfectly healthy. I tend to idealize Half Moon Bay because of this. To me it was paradise and it still is. Shortly after moving back to Portland, I started having pretty bad OCD and my knees went bad as well. I've never been healthy since.

beauders said...

Katie, do you think Bill paid off Deacon for something related to Sheila and that is why he can buy the restaurant?

katie8753 said...

I hadn't thought of that Beauders. That would explain his having the money to go from "the janitor" to "the Grand Pizza Meister". I do think Bill has an agenda, but he pretty much hates Deacon.

beauders said...

Katie, if Brooke and Taylor start a romance, even I might have to stop watching, Brooke conquering women does not appeal to me. I don't think it will go that far but you never know.

katie8753 said...

Agreed Beauders. And how did Sheila get into the Forrester office? I thought Carter said he had special guards working 24/7. LOL.