Monday, February 16, 2015


Okay, let's have a fireside chat.  Let's discuss this case logically.

 Sometime in late June of 1969, Tex decided to do a drug burn on Bernard Crowe, a/k/a Lottsapoppa.  According to Tex, he needed to raise some money for Charlie, and this was his great idea to do it.  He ripped Crowe off and left his girlfriend, Luella holding the bag.  According to Tex, it was for $2500 or  $2750.  No matter.

Crowe held Luella captive and called Spahn's Ranch, asking for Charles.  He got Charlie.  Charlie decided to go and face Crowe.  He took TJ with him.  His plan was for TJ to pull a gun on Crowe, but when TJ chickened out, Manson pulled the gun on him.  According to Tex, the gun clicked 3 times.  Then fired.

Charlie thought he had killed Crowe.  He didn't care so much that he had killed a man, but he did care about repercussions.

This happened in June of 1969.  That's when everything started to unravel.  Charlie's minions started complaining that the "Helter Skelter" he had been preaching hadn't even started yet.  Also, Charlie decided that he was unsafe at Spahn's and they needed to get to the desert to be safe.  Not that he cared about his minions, but he needed them, much like the con man that he was, to have an audience.  Without them, he was proverbially nothing.

Charlie heard from Ella Jo that Gary Hinman had inherited money.  And Charlie needed money to get outta town.  Charlie sent Bobby to Gary's to get the money.  Well, Gary didn't have any money.  There was no inheritance.  

So Bobby decided to kill Gary.  Why?  Who knows?  But he did.  Then Bobby stupidly got caught driving his victim's car with the knife in the tire wheel.

Now Manson is panicking.  Not only does he not have enough money to get away, he now has a guy in jail that can implicate him.  Now he's really in a quandry.

Here's where it gets sticky.  

According to Tex, Manson ordered him to go to Cielo Drive, kill everyone there as grusomely as  you can, and get $600.  And if you don't get $600, go to the next house and the next house until you get it.  And make sure the girls write "something witchy"!

Keep in mind that Mary was languishing in jail, and could blab about Gary Hinman at any time.  He needed her out.

Now remember, the Crowe incident was all Tex's fault.  He is the one who instigated it.  But in Charlie's mind, I think he wanted Tex, Pat, Susan & Linda to get their hands dirty.  And the next night, he added Leslie & Steve.

The more people you implicate, the less likely they will "squeal".

Okay enough for now.  More later....


katie8753 said...

Hey guys, there is a WHOLE lot more to discuss, but I'm tired and I've got a big day tomorrow.

Read, enjoy, comment, and have a nice evening!! :)

revatron said...

I've been thinking a lot about Crowe lately.
Was Crowe a stranger introduced by Rosina or did the family know him?
I've been reading around lately that the girls called Crowe the only negro member of the family, but I can't find where this originates. Does anyone know? Is this a real quote?
Also, there are "reports" that the family bus was often seen parked on Loyal Trail in late 1968. Loyal Trail, today, is a tiny private road intended for resident parking only. This place where the bus was supposedly parked is right outside of 7008 Woodrow Wilson, Bernard Crowe's address.
Does anyone know where that report originates from?

starship said...

Hi, Katie,

Where is it that Ella Jo told CM that Gary had inherited money? This turns out not to be true in the end, and I believe there is much more credible evidence that BB story about the bikers is the reason for Hinman.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Revatron!
Good to see you.

revatron said...

Hello Lynard!
1/2 way down this article from Friday August 13th, 1971…
"Earlier Miss Bailey testified she was the one who suggested the cult get money from Hinman."
"The young woman testified that in the summer of 1969 Manson mentioned several times to “family” members that they needed money for dune buggies to go to the desert...'I said I believed Gary Hinman owned his own house in Topanga Canyon and I believed he had stocks and bonds.'"
In this audio interview Ella says she felt responsible for Hinman's death because she knew him the best.
"I was really scared because there were so many guns around. It wasn’t the scene that had happened for a year, almost a year and a half that I lived with them. I’m sure (anyone?) could have seen the changes coming down.”
"“I was afraid that eventually Charlie would say, ‘OK, you didn’t go to the Hinman murder, but it’s time that you accomplish what everyone else’s done.”

I'm not familiar with any credible evidence that would substantiate BBs claim.
Bobby's story serves Bobby. It's in his best interests.
Ella's story is not self serving. She is practically implicating herself.

Donna said...

Well written. Sadie's book 'the myth of helter skelter' is similar. But your account is not making excuses or minimizing behavior.

louis365 said...

I see a whole lotta problems with what you have posted so far Katie. So many, in fact, that I don't even know where to start. :)

katie8753 said...

Thanks Revatron & Donna!

Louis, go ahead and post what you think. That's what I wanted, to have a discussion!!

katie8753 said...

Starship, I can't remember where I read that Gary was supposed to have "inherited" money. I know I saw it somewhere.

But I do believe that the only reason Bobby, Mary & Susan went to Gary's house was to get money, and they believed he had some.

The drug angle is weak. When Susan & Mary were interviewed by the police, neither of them mentioned going to Gary's because of some bad drugs Gary sold Bobby. You would think that after hours of Bobby trying to get Gary to hand over money, that Mary or Susan would have overheard someone say, even ONCE, that drugs were the reason Bobby wanted money. But neither of them mentioned that. They simply told the police that they went there to get Gary's money.

MrPoirot said...

The hinman motive is impossible to pin down 100%.
Many claim Hinman had no drug making operation yet Beausoleil has given two detailed stories about bad mescaline as being the reason he killed Hinman. Beausoleil also explains why he did not mention the drug motive in his trial.

You have two convincing stories that are completely different.

Everybody in Hinman's house heard the discussion over the money Hinman "owed". This points to the drug motive.

Most likely Ella Jo Bailey is mistaken in her belief that her slip of the tongue about Hinman having money, property and stocks was the impetus for the attack on Hinman. Did Ella invent the inheritance money rumor out of thin air?

All of the murders have multiple motive stories. For instance it is believed that Shorty was murdered for snitching and thus causing the Aug 16, 69 raid on Spahns yet it is probably Kitty Lutesinger who caused the raid. She actually went to the cops because Charlie had clobbered her. I'm surprised Lutesinger wasn't murdered. I'm surprised she ever went back to Charlie after going to the cops about him.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P said: Everybody in Hinman's house heard the discussion over the money Hinman "owed".

Mr. P, are you talking about "money for bad drugs"?

Sorry Mr. P, that's not true. Mary and Susan never mentioned that, that I know of. At least not in their initial talk with police.

The only money they mentioned was money that Gary supposedly had that they were there to take.

katie8753 said...

Mary said something else that was weird. She said that she and Susan were supposed to go to Gary's door, and if he was home and let them in, they were to light a cigarette lighter in the window to signal Bobby to come in.

Talk about ambush!

Mary says they got to Gary's around midnight. Didn't any of these people operate during daylight hours?

Then she said they took turns sleeping to guard Gary. That must have been a lot of fun.

"Okay, it's your turn to sleep on the floor".



MrPoirot said...

Not true. Charlie discussed the money Hinman "owed". The whole reason Charlie was there was to persuade Hinman to pay the money owed.
Even the word "pay" points to the bad mescaline motive.

katie8753 said...

Then why didn't Mary or Susan hear that conversation?

katie8753 said...

Okay I just thought of something funny.

Well, not funny HA HA..funny queer.

Can you imagine them all hankering over Gary and having a guard stay awake?

"Okay, you're snoring, it's time for you to get up and guard".

"What time is it?"

"How would I know I don't have a watch."

"Wake me up in 15 minutes".

"How can I? I don't have a watch."

"Snooze alarm. Count to 60 15 times"

"No way Jose, it's time for you to get up and guard him."

"Who put you in charge?"


katie8753 said...

Did you ever wonder who was "in charge" when Charlie wasn't around?

I'll bet Mary was in charge. She already said Susan had to sleep on the floor.

Yep, she was "large and in charge". HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Okay, I'm being silly. I'll stop...if you're lucky. HA HA.

Just kidding. I'll stop..starting NOW.

AustinAnn74 said...

What did Tex do with the $2500 from Crowe? Back then, that would of been plenty to get to the desert. Also, Linda K brought $5000 then Juanita brought even more. Charlie had that summer more than enough $$$ to leave. Where did it all go? I always wondered why they didn't use some of that money to fix the plumbing at Spahn, so they could take hot showers. Also never understood why they never planted a huge garden there. I guess gardening and having hot water to bathe in was not on the agenda.

revatron said...

Excellent question AustinAnn74. Adjusted for inflation, that's over $30,000. What were they spending all that money on? Vehicles were stolen, food was eaten out of garbage cans.
Why is the first and only thing popping into my mind bribe or protection money? Maybe the bikers were paid to hang around?
In Ella Jo's audio interview she says that the family did not benefit in any way from the murder of Hinman.
These people were taking big risks to obtain money that just seemed to disappear in the end.

sunset77 said...

There are at least 2 blogs online that attribute the claim that Crowe was the only black member of the family to Diane Lake. When or where she supposedly said that or if Manson & co. even knew Crowe before Tex ripped him off, I don't know. I think I read somewhere that Watson planned to leave his girlfriend there deliberately, he only wanted the money, he didn't care about the girl. I may have read that in one of his books on his website.

So far as the gun "clicking" 3 times, I know from experience that if you put less than 9 shells in the cylinder, the "empty" chambers won't fire because there is no shell in them. For me, it was fairly common to have less than 9 shells in my pocket, I actually practiced closing the cylinder so the loaded chamber/s were one position to the right of the barrel. When I either cocked the hammer with my thumb or pulled the trigger and fired as a "double action", the cylinder would rotate one position to the left "automatically", so a loaded chamber would be under the hammer. I could do it every single time. I can picture Manson pointing the pistol at Crowe's chest and repeatedly jerking the trigger until it fired, he knew there was a bullet in there somewhere.

Finally, there was apparently a shower Spahn, there is film taken by Hendrickson showing Catherine Share "Gypsy" standing naked in the shower. I think Hendrickson says "Gypsy" wants everyone to know they take showers just like "normal people". Whether it was a "hot shower" or not I don't know, however, it seems to me the weather in that area is pretty warm, a "hot" shower in the summer might not have been desirable.

katie8753 said...

Excellent points AustinAnn & Revatron.

(1) What did they do with all that money, and (2) why did they need a lot of money to live in the desert?

Did Charlie lose his skill at "trading things"? Or couldn't they just steal some 4-WD Jeeps to get to the desert? I guess you need money for supplies to live on in the desert, but did they run out of stolen credit cards? Stolen credit cards bought LOTS of stuff for these people.

Did Charlie suddenly have an epiphany that stolen credit cards might be traced back to him?

katie8753 said...

Thanks for your research Sunset.

I'm not sure if showers were a hot item for these people, but I feel very certain that the environment was not on their agenda at that time. They did everything they could do to pollute the earth. From dirty, oily dune buggies and engines lying on the ground, to burning down a loader.

Charlie made that ATWA stuff up after he got convicted.

katie8753 said...

Oh I just remembered, I read recently somewhere (can't remember where) that Voytek made a call to someone right before midnight on August 8th.

I can't imagine who that was to. Chatsworth Charlie, you are my "go to" man. Who was that to?

revatron said...

Brenda Mc Cann on 12-4-69 stated that Juanita Wildbush joined the group with $15,000. According to Brenda, Juanita gave George Spahn $5,000 and gave Manson a large sum of money. Manson bought dune buggies with the money. Juanita bought a large amount of food, some guitars and some tapestry.

Mary Brunner on 12-4-69 stated, “We came for money but by this time it was obvious he didn’t have any.” When asked how much money? She replies, “Someone said he had $30,000.”
Then on 4-6-70 she says the amount was $3,000. She says that stocks were discussed with Gary. That he did own some, but that they were in his father’s possession and could not be signed over.

Glen Krell, Gary’s friend stated Gary did not always have money and occasionally borrowed from Glen. Glen said Gary seemed nervous and distraught the last time he saw him, 7-25-69.

*Take a look at the 1st homicide report for Hinman
Mike Burk Irwin, 20 year old male is listed as "informant". An informant? That's odd.

katie8753 said...

It looks like Bobby's hearing was postponed:

katie8753 said...

So Bobby B was violating prison rules on January 27th. WOW. I thought he was exemplary! HA HA.

And Debra wants him back in CA.

Very Interesting!!