Saturday, August 16, 2014

Bad Decisions versus Bad People

“Even as kids reach adolescence, they need more than ever for us to watch over them. Adolescence is not about letting go. It's about hanging on during a very bumpy ride.”
                                                                   -Ron Taffel

Excerpted from "The Enquirer":

The killer’s future mother-in-law, Melissa Burton, 47, admits she doesn’t know why her daughter, Afton, 26, hasn’t tied the knot with the infamous killer yet, but the Illinois mother of four told The ENQUIRER in an exclusive interview: “I prefer that they not get married. “This is not the life that we chose for our daughter, by no means, you know,” said the devastated mom. “I had other hopes and dreams for my first child, but you can’t dictate the course that they take. They choose their own lives.” 

Manson spent the 45th anniversary of the brutal 1969 murders – which left seven dead including director Roman Polanski’s pregnant wife Sharon Tate – at Corcoran State Prison in California. Afton moved to the area seven years ago to be closer to the coldblooded killer. Her obsession with the 79-year old maniac blossomed in high school when she learned of Manson’s environmental beliefs. She then began exchanging letters with him, her mom told The ENQUIRER. Afton was only 19 when she bolted from her home to be near Manson, who gave her the nickname “Star.” “People can think I’m crazy, but they don’t know,” the defiant Manson worshipper told an interviewer. “This is right for me. This is what I was born for!”

You can read full article here if Trash Mags are your thing:
Saint Circumstance weighs-in:

So…. I am flying home from a weekend of hanging with my home-boys on the Jersey Shore. I had already finished my Sports Illustrated and the Graham Nash book- “Wild Tales”. I see a copy of the “National Enquirer” on the empty seat next to me, and I still have about 40 minutes before we touch down in Fort Lauderdale... so I sigh deeply, and then pick it up. What do you know, it turns out they have an article on Star. It seems the “Wedding” to Charlie is off. Well that got me to thinking, and the nice lady with the trash bag happened to be coming through the aisle, so I deposited the "Enquirer" where it belonged, and then pushed my seat back, closed my eyes, and thought long and hard about Star….

I think it was right here on the LSB3 blog, the first time I debated with my old friend AC about Star and our polar opposite feelings about her. I am quite sure there were several people who told me at the time, that Star was a normal and bright young woman who had the support of her family, and was not a Charlie “worshiper”... just a like-minded person with interest in the environment.

I guess we can close the book on that debate. When it came to my attention over the last year, that Charlie and Star had become engaged, I did not feel surprised in the least... but I still found myself just as disgusted as I felt the first time I became aware of Star, and her situation. How can something like this happen after all these years, and with all the hindsight? It is one thing for the girls in 1969 with no information, to make that mistake. But for a young woman today to become aware of a man who is known to her only as “The Most Evil Man Alive”, and to be turned on by that... to the point where she develops her entire life and existence around him???

I used to ask – where are the Parents? Parents who allow this to happen, can make the argument that she is an adult who cannot be stopped from making her own choices. I can make the argument that at 19, she made a choice born from the previous 18 years of nurturing and guidance. But after much more thought, and with the benefit of time- I can also wonder what is in the heart of this young woman as well…

There were some girls in the family like Ruth, Diane, and Sherry who went along for the ride because they had no options, or were in it for the fun... but got out or fled when it got ugly. There were also some girls like Patricia, and Sandy, and LULU who seemed more interested in the ugly and darker parts of the family experience. Maybe some just have something inside of them, or are seeking something darker in life, that others do not?

I guess my question for today old friends would be this:

Is Star the victim of a bad upbringing and lack of positive role models and influences in her life?


Is this just a bad egg who would have found some other dark outlet to spend her life on, if she hadn’t come across Charlie?  I mean at the end of the day- as she grows older and more mature- how long do we make excuses for this woman, and start to hold her accountable for her own choices?

Makes you wonder huh???

You’re Favorite Saint


LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thank You Saint!

johnnyseattle said...

I wouldn't be so surprised to see that paper on the seat next to you as I often flew out of Newark and thought the National Enquirer was Jersey's version of the New York Times. LoL

Seriously, I don't think she is a 'bad egg' as much as making 'bad choices.' From what we can see to date she is not breaking the law and she is working a job to support her choices. And I have not heard her espousing any of Charlie's racial talk, etc. She is like many other women who choose to have relationships with incarcerated men despite knowing of their terrible criminal past. To his dying day, Seattle's own Ted Bundy was receiving letters from women wanting to have a relationship with him. And to be fair, on the male side ol' Susan Atkins was able to get a couple relationships going despite all her baggage.

I feel for the parents, family, and friends that must wonder what the hell is going on. ('Charlie Manson, WTF??? Can't you at least find someone who is not in prison for life'? )

But if someone is over 18 what can you really do? When she was underage, her dad says she kept it secret from them and by the time they figured it out she was an adult. Thanksgiving must be a hoot at their house.

Fortunately, Charlie is in prison and won't be getting out. Chances are that over the next year or so he will manage to get himself tossed back in 'the hole' and unable to communicate with her directly. Father Time is relentless and at 80 plus it will take care of him soon enough and she'll have to break free/move on.

As long as she breaks no laws my guess is that by age 30 she'll be asking for a 'mulligan.' Maybe change her name, go to college, and find a better mate. But it is clearly her life/her choices.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Ah yes...

It's the old "psych 101" -- "Nature" VS "Nurture" debate.
Always an interesting discussion...

Is a person "born bad" (Nature), or are they taught that way (Nurture)?

It's a debate which has raged-on (amongst psycho-analysts) for decades.

Most experts now agree, that both factors contribute to a person's make-up.


I'm sure we can all agree, that a "good upbringing" is invaluable.

But notwithstanding... there are certainly irresponsible people who come from great homes.
And again, there are certainly responsible people, who arise from difficult circumstances.


Saint said:
"Parents who allow this to happen, can make the argument that she is an adult who cannot be stopped from making her own choices. I can make the argument that at 19, she made a choice born from the previous 18 years of nurturing and guidance."

Those two sentences, are the cruxt of this conversation.
And again, I would say that it's probably "a little bit of both".


Johnny said:
Seriously, I don't think she is a 'bad egg' as much as making 'bad choices.' From what we can see to date she is not breaking the law and she is working a job to support her choices."

My personal opinion is this:

I think Star is misguided, naive and searching (like most kids) to "belong"... and due to her naivety, she's searching in the wrong place.
I would characterize Star as somewhat of a jackass... but, I wouldn't characterize her as a "bad person". (I wouldn't take it that far)

I don't think Star means any harm, and I think she's basically harmless.

Hopefully, after Manson croaks, she will "smarten-up" and get a life.
I'm pretty sure, she will.


She will find some other foolish subject, to glom onto.
Hopefully... scenario #1, will prevail.

I sincerely hope, that after Manson croaks, she will become older, wiser, and smarten up.

Let's face it:
She won't go anywhere, until Manson croaks.
She's getting WAY too much attention from this "situation"... and ultimately folks, THAT'S what this is all about (whether she realizes it, or not). Personally, I don't think she even realizes it.

For the time being (as Johnny basically said)... beyond wasting her time, she's probably pretty harmless and safe.
Manson will never be released... and he can't have conjugal visits (Thank God!).

Truth be told:
I'm more worried about that weirdo "Grey Wolf".
She's been living with him.
He could probably do more damage to her, than Manson.

What ever happened to THAT freak?
After Grey Wolf's big cell phone incident... he disappeared from the public eye.
Is Star still living with him???

At least Star has the excuse of being young and naive.
What's Grey Wolf's excuse???

You know what they say:
"There's no fool, like an old fool."

Ain't THAT the fucking truth!

Peace... LS

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Johnny!
Great to see you Brother!!

MrPoirot said...

Star has dumped Charlie. Now she is devoted to Tony Stewart.

johnnyseattle said...

nice to see ya Lyn.
hope you will listen in to Brian's show. may be some fireworks!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Johnny,

I'll try, but my schedule is pretty tight tonight.
It's not likely that I'll make it... but never say never right? LOL

Maybe Brian will record it.

johnnyseattle said...

Glad that Saint and Lynyrd made it to the show tonight.

leary7 said...

man oh man, I have missed the Saint. great writing.
that is a group I would love to hang with - Saint, L/S and johnnyseattle. Maybe Star would invite us all over for tea.
Good or bad, she always spooks me.

katie8753 said...

Star says that she is with Manson because of his pro-environment feelings.

Soooo....I'm guessing there aren't any pro-environment people Star's own age that live in her hometown that she could save the environment with?

Manson's solution to over population? Start killing people. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Well, the good thing about dating a guy in prison is that you don't have to worry about him fucking around on you. At least with a girl.

The bad thing is...he's in prison.


louis365 said...

Word I hear...Charlie has dumped Star.

katie8753 said...

Hey here's George Carlin's answer to Manson's Gulag and his gal pal's "mensch"....

Venus said...

Katie....If you date a guy who'll never get out of prison:

1. you can buy the furniture you want to buy

2. you can rent the movies you want to see

3. you don't have to do his laundry

4. you don't have to keep putting the toilet seat down

5. you can vacation where you want to go

Jump in, Katie!

Cuntry Trash said...

It has nothing to do with bad or good upbringing, or upbringing at all. Not every decision is based on upbringing or even has anything to do with it.

This is the problem with society, because we always try and figure it out - try to figure what happened in their youth to explain why bad people do things. We dissect the lives of Dahmer, Bundy, Gacy, etc, and all say, "yeah, x happened in their childhood and y happened."

Would have Bundy killed if he had a perfect mother-father family? IMO, he most definitely would have. People who are wired a certain way are wired that way and there's very little that can be done for them.

This is why people from perfect families KILL very easily, and we then think "well they were a good kid, good grades, goo family, blah, blah blah..." and wonder what went wrong. Bad wiring is what went wrong.

So, when it comes to Star, she likes what she likes. and it has very little to do with her family life. Those kids did not follow Manson solely based on unfulfilling family lives - they followed him because they wanted rebellion and wanted to be treated as adults and be away from their families.

And some of those people were not wired right, and what happened was based on the fact that they were capable of murder and everything was put in place for them to do that.

This is such a stupid article and not sure why they keep running the damn thing. We all know Manson is NOT marrying Afton. She may think he is, he may be telling her he is, but when it comes down to it, it will never happen.

Filing a marriage certificate is one thing, but anyone can do that.

katie8753 said...

True Venus, and if you date a convicted murderer you don't have to pretend to want to have sex with him cuz it's not even allowed.

You don't have to wonder where he is or what he's doing.

You don't have to cook his dinner or pick up his dirty underwear and socks.

katie8753 said...

Hey Cuntry I agree with you.

Charlie is never gonna marry Star. He's just using her to get in front of the camera again. He'll use anyone to get what he wants. And she doesn't understand that yet. She will some day.

He's such a loser.

MrPoirot said...

CT- Dahmer is the easiest to explain because he was extremely mentally ill as a child.

It's easy to see how Charlie turned out bad but it isn't easy to explain his cult leader charisma that just seems to be something he taught himself in prison that matched up bad with the 60s hippie revolt.

But Bundy? Geez. I can't explain that guy. Maybe it was the fumes from a bad muffler on his VW.
I remember listening live to his last interview the night before his execution and being so relieved when they fried him the next morning.

There are bad people. There is such a thing as "evil".

Ever met a complete stranger that emitted vibes that freaked you out and backed you off without them saying or doing anything overt? Perhaps it is evil you sensed?

starship said...

Star the great environmentalist takes a job working at McDonald's. Check.

Star the great environmentalist becomes devoted to the most evil man alive because of his ideas towards protecting the environment. Check.

Begs the question: What exactly is it that the notoriously evil Charles Manson had to do that would result in Star dumping him?