Friday, August 4, 2017

DATELINE FRIDAY SNEAK PEEK: The Summer of Manson

Thu, Aug 03 


Keith Morrison reports on the mind and myth of Charles Manson. The one-hour special features rarely-seen video of Manson and interviews with his former parole officer and a “Manson Family” confidant. Morrison also speaks with key players in the case including: Gregg Jakobson, former music producer; Barbara Hoyt, former Manson family member; Debra Tate, victim Sharon Tate’s sister; Anthony DiMaria, victim Jay Sebring’s nephew; Virginia Graham, key witness for the prosecution; and Manson expert and author Jeff Guinn. Airs Friday, August 4 at 10/9c on NBC.


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Netflix’s Serial Killer Show Mindhunter, Produced by David Fincher, Gets First Trailer

261 comments:

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katie8753 said...

I'll watch this show on NBC. It's touted to have new info. I hope it's not just SOSDD!

katie8753 said...

Okay, I didn't see anything new...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

It was absolute shit, the same old lame ass stuff over and over and over again, two mentions of Tex in the whole show and hes the man whos knife or gun delivered EVERY fatal wound, Watson must have incriminating pictures of people in power

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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katie8753 said...

It's amazing how these networks keep having shows about this case and advertising "all new stuff". Are they just trying to fill a time slot?

The reason they don't mention Tex is because they're trying to capitalize on Manson being the "boogeyman". People who don't know much about this case probably don't know who Tex is. If NBC advertised a show about Tex Watson, most people probably wouldn't watch.

People who don't know much of anything about this case probably just believe everything that was said. More fake news.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I think they would, Tex in my opinion was one of the most interesting and key parts of the whole saga, if they would get into what Tex REALLY was it would change alot of minds about the case, his rip offs (especially the Crowe rip off) are what got the ball rolling on the murders

katie8753 said...

Yeah I agree, they need to start explaining who Tex is and what he did. He's the real "boogeyman".

TomG said...

I will agree that a person who is a victim, and dies in terror and pain, is a person worthy of our consideration.

But I would also like to say that a person convicted of a first degree felony, even if they were just on the outskirts of it, sits and sits and sits in a small cinder block cell with another wacko inmate who is on the long side of a yeast infection.

My question would be, Who's suffering is worse?

katie8753 said...

Hmmmm, let's see....getting stabbed to death or sitting next to someone with a yeast infection....Which is worse?

Kind of a toss up I guess...

ARE YOU KIDDING?

katie8753 said...

And while we're on the subject, how did Clem get out anyway?

In my opinion, he was a lot more dangerous than Bruce Davis. Clem was in the CAR at the Labianca's, and just because he wasn't chosen doesn't mean he wouldn't have relished killing them. He moved on to killing that actor, which he certainly would have done if they had found him. Then he went on to kill Shorty.

How is Bruce more dangerous than Clem? Or Mary Brunner for that matter??? She should have been locked up like Sadie. She admitted to smothering Gary Hinman because he wouldn't die fast enough.

katie8753 said...

As far as Leslie Van Skankston goes, I guess a 19 year old girl doesn't know it's wrong to stab a lady in the back 16 times and then laugh and sing about it during her murder trial! And threaten a jury who found her guilty!

"Oh, let me see, was that wrong? Let me check my Sunday School notes, or maybe I should check my Monrovia High School handbook"! HA HA HA.

She's not getting out. No matter what she pulls out of her bag of tricks! No matter what lawyer she applies her black magic on to fall for her. It's not going to work! It hasn't so far, and I don't see it working in the future!

Marliese said...

Hey Susan, What did you think it was gonna be about? Did you think someone was gonna say hey Rosemary was found with a dress on over her nightgown, she must've taken out at knifepoint to clean out the safe.
The title of the episode is called The Summer of Manson...with his face all over ads...so who and what did you think it was gonna be about?

Personally I think Tex gets less air time on a lot of these shows because he wasn't tried with Manson and the girls, and there isn't footage of him singing in handcuffs, smiling for the cameras in the hallway of the courthouse, taking cues from Charlie in court and all the other antics and wild behavior of their trial. When it was finally his turn, there's footage of him being led through the hallway like an emaciated psychopath, that's it. Most people with half a brain know he's a killer. And while he may have delivered hundreds of stab wounds, Pat inflicted horrific wounds and suffering to Abigail Folger, fought with Rosemary and desecrated Leno's ripped up body.

Marliese said...

Katie, lol. Van Skankston. Lol

Marliese said...

Hey Susan, why does most of your stuff post twice?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Oh i dont know Marliese call me naive but i keep thinking someone in the media will question why a man who never actually killed anyone, as far as im concerned never told anyone to kill anyone has been locked up for half a fucking century in a country with the most "advanced and just" legal system in the world

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

And the funny thing is most people in this country are so fucking simple minded that all they need is to see some footage of a little man with long hair and a beard say some crazy things cut an X into his forehead and say "yep keep him behind bars forever, i mean he'll break into my house and cut my familys throats, shoot my dogs and cats, pray to the devil and drink my blood" lol

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Its always the same story with you Helter Skelter "official" narrative Kool Aid drinkers, when someone points out other theories you immediately come back with "well Tex and Pat testified that it went this way" as if they would NEVER lie, then gather up all your followers/ass kissers to join in shouting down the other person, the facts i gave about Tex leaving with Rosemary are solid, the 3 things i listed havent been answered other than "of course shed put a dress on over a nightgown because thats what id do" lol

katie8753 said...

Hey Hey Hey Susan, if you want to speak to Marliese hold the expletives! You speak with respect or I'll delete your comments!!! She didn't cuss you out.

First of all when you talk about other "narratives" you're talking "fairy tales" that haven't been proven. Secondly that obsolete "fairy tale" that Rosemary robbed a safe because she was wearing a dress is made up by other folks. It has nothing to do with Helter Skelter, it has to do with someone trying to make something else up.

Nothing is written in concrete in this case. If Marliese and others don't want to accept your interpretation of some nonsense, it's their decision. Stop forking things down people's throats!

What's wrong with you? Why are you so adamant about people believing you? Chill out you square!

CarolMR said...

The late writer and investigator, Maury Terry, who wrote THE ULTIMATE EVIL (about the Son of Sam murders mostly and a little about TLB), also believed that Tex left Waverly with Rosemary, hence the dress over her nightgown.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Dont you dare doubt the Great Bugliosi, Carol!! Dont you know that Vince the Great could part the Red Sea and walk on water? Lol

katie8753 said...

Hi Carol! Why did he believe Tex left Waverly with Rosemary? Because she was wearing something over her nightgown? Is that the only criteria? Was there any other evidence?

I guess if I went to bed wearing a nightie and some stranger came in my room, claiming he wasn't going to hurt me over and over again, but to join my husband in the living room, and I decided to cover up with something because he was a stranger, it means that I went to clean out some safe?

And if she went to clean out the safe, why kill them? That doesn't make any sense. If they only wanted money, why kill them?

katie8753 said...

Susan, this stupid stuff about Rosemary cleaning out a safe has NOTHING to do with Bugliosi! You didn't know that?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Tex was a fucking psycho thats why he killed them both, same reason he killed everyone at Cielo, like Clint Eastwood told the judge in the first Dirty Harry movie when the judge asked Harry how he knew the killer would kill again "because he likes it", Tex in his own words said cutting everyone up at Cielo was fun, also dont gorget the other two reasons about them leaving, Rosemarys untied hands when found and the car parked on the street with the boat attached when Leno NEVER left the car on the street no matter how tired he was

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Yes it does because its Bugliosis story that they were just chosen at "random", go ask a homicide investigator with more than 7 minutes on the job how many "random" murders hes seen

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Oops i forgot they werent really random they were killed because the Beatles told a little midget lifetime criminal that there would be a race war and blackie would win but not to fear Charlie and his little band of troops are gonna escape to the black hole in the desert and emerge with 144 thousand when its over and regain power lol

katie8753 said...

Oh okay, so Tex took Rosemary to the safe, had her empty it out, then took her back to Waverly Drive, AND THEN HE WENT PSYCHO and stabbed Leno to death and then Rosemary to death?

That's the Stupidest THING I'VE EVER HEARD!

A psycho doesn't get "psycho" on demand you idiot!

And stop talking about that boat on the street. It's a MOOT point!

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Nah i think ill keep talking about the boat on street because its relevant to the story, just because you dont accept it doesn't make it "moot"

katie8753 said...

Susan said:

Oops i forgot they werent really random they were killed because the Beatles told a little midget lifetime criminal that there would be a race war and blackie would win but not to fear Charlie and his little band of troops are gonna escape to the black hole in the desert and emerge with 144 thousand when its over and regain power lol

Keep talking stupid!

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

The fact that you think its stupid shows how crazy the story was, even a Bugliosi Kool Aid drinker like you thinks its nuts lol

katie8753 said...

Well talk about the boat until doomsday jackass. Doesn't matter. It won't change a thing.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Never said it would, Vince accomplished his goal, he got rich and all he had to do is railroad one innocent person and let a murderess off scot free, just another day at Disneyland

katie8753 said...

Vince is dead. Stop whining. If you want to help Charlie, why don't you go to his cell and give him a cake with a saw in it.

You people make me sick. Charles Manson is GUILTY. Stop trying to make him not guilty.

Marliese said...

Oh please...Charlie Manson is not innocent and wasn't railroaded.

Carol, unfortunately, you don't say WHY Maury Terry "believed" Rosemary left with Tex before she was viciously killed. Maybe you're just throwing it out there. Having a dress on over a nightgown is not evidence that she was taken anywhere. And Maury Terry having believed it, if true, doesn't give the idea credibility. I think Maury Terry has also connected Charlie and the crew to satanic cults, suggests Cielo was a hit on Abigail and Frykowski...because Charlie supposedly met Abigail in San Francisco and she gave him money (so kill her?) and Frykowski...drugs of course, and Rosemary too...killed because of her alleged LSD dealings. So now we add the nonsense about the dress. LOL! All so over thought, IMO. Maybe she just wanted to cover herself when a filthy rat of a man startled her awake invading her bedroom in the middle of the night, no that can't be it...it's not dirty enough. Dear God.

Susan...you make me laugh...the boat on the street, the dress, innocent Charlie, LOL

katie8753 said...

Is Rosemary wearing the dress the only reason some people believe that Tex took her to empty the safe? Is there anything else to support that theory?

That dress was probably draped over a chair near the bed and Rosemary just grabbed it quickly to cover up. If she had grabbed a bathrobe, would people still think Tex took her somewhere?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

How many times do i have to say it? Its also the untied hands when found and the car and boat in the street

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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Marliese said...

Hi Katie, i've forgotten half of what I used to know about TLB, but some of this stuff is hilarious! The media should question the story....after all, as far as Susan is concerned, Charlie is an innocent man. LOL!

Marliese said...

Double poster, yes, you keep saying it, but you ignore rebuttals to your theories. Go back several weeks ago to old threads...your stuff was all covered, and you had no counter point, not a word.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Actually you had no counter point to what I said

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Oh wait i forgot, "if a dirty man came into the room id put a dress on my dainty little body" and "Leno was SOOOOOOO tired from a 3 hour drive that he left his car with an expensive boat attached parked on a residential neighborhood street overnight even though his stepson said he NEVER did that no matter how tired he was", same old bullshit lol

katie8753 said...

So......untied hands, a dress over a nightgown and the car and boat in the street = safe robbing?

It's funny how Tex, Pat & Leslie never mentioned Tex leaving with Rosemary. I think Pat & Leslie would have probably noticed that.

They mentioned that they KILLED them, why not mention taking Rosemary somewhere?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Theres alot of reasons, Lenos mob ties, Rosemarys questionable life and connections, Charlie telling them not to talk about what was taken, Tex not wanting to share what was taken with anyone except Charlie, there were alot of changing stories about Waverly, first Pat killed Rosemary then its Tex, first it was Pat who carved WAR into Leno now we know it was Tex, one thing is for damn sure Tex got SOMETHING that night, the coin and antique gun collection wouldnt have been left behind if they didnt, Waverly was chosen for a reason not at random, Charlie knew they had something of value and wanted it and he knew Tex was violent and crazy enought to get it

katie8753 said...

Leno's mob ties? Rosemary's questionable life and connections???

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??

Are you suggesting that after all these years, Tex, Pat & Leslie are scared of Leno's mob ties? Those people are ALL DEAD by now! They've never mentioned this at ANY parole hearing...EVER!!!

And please don't waste my time telling me that Charlie & Tex wanted to "protect" Rosemary from scandal!

Charlie telling them not to talk about what was taken, Tex not wanting to share what was taken with anyone except Charlie.

Where are you getting that info? From Charlie?

first Pat killed Rosemary then its Tex, first it was Pat who carved WAR into Leno now we know it was Tex

Yeah this is the FIRST TIME THEY ALL LIED!! HA HA!

one thing is for damn sure Tex got SOMETHING that night, the coin and antique gun collection wouldnt have been left behind if they didnt, Waverly was chosen for a reason not at random, Charlie knew they had something of value and wanted it and he knew Tex was violent and crazy enought to get it

Wait I thought you said Charlie was innocent. Are you changing your story to Charlie ORDERED Tex to do it???

katie8753 said...

And BTW, I can't imagine Tex and his killing minions to be afraid of ANYONE, including the Mob. They thought they were all protected by Charlie's magic. And if anyone doesn't believe that, listen to all that crazy-ass shit spouted by his ardent admirers! You know who I mean.

He breathed breath back into a dead bird!!

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

First theyre not going to keep changing stories in front of parole boards that would be looked at as being deceptive, not a smart move, second like i always say you and others just pick and choose what you believe from Charlie, if he says something crazy that reinforces your "boogeyman" idea of him you believe it, anything that casts doubt on his "guilt" you call bullshit, third yes i believe Charlie ordered them to STEAL not KILL, big difference

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

This whole affair started with scumbag Tex dope scheme/rip off with Lotsapoppa and just snowballed from there, Crowe calls the ranch threatens to burn it down, Charlie goes to smooth things over, sees no other way to save the ranch from Crowe and the rest of the "bruthas" other than to shoot Crowe and now the heat is on to get the cash raised to get to the desert, Bobby, Susan and Mary fucked up Hinman, didnt get any money now its on to Cielo, they get 73 bucks there, come back to the ranch and now Charlie is pissed and goes for the ride to Waverly to keep everyone calm and get what they need, then its on to Dennis Wilson, etc, etc, etc, all to get $$$$

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Like Harold True said, "them fuckin fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot with the bottom written on it" they were a bunch of loopy, underfed, underrested, malnourished, diseased weaklings using LSD on a daily basis, my 6 pound pomeranian is scarier lol

katie8753 said...

First theyre not going to keep changing stories in front of parole boards that would be looked at as being deceptive, not a smart move

They've been doing that since the FIRST parole hearing! They've changed their stories so many times, they have to read up on the last one to remember what they even said!!

And, if you don't think Charlie knew they were gonna kill the 2nd night, after they butchered the first night, then I think you must also believe in the tooth fairy.

Charlie has even admitted that they were too sloppy the first night, that he had to "show them how to do it" the next night.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Well thats your opinion and youre entitled to it, doesn't mean i have to agree with it

Dilligaf said...

Hey Susan,

Here's an idea. You seem to have a knack for pissing people off on several sites now. If you are so convinced that your perspective is the only accurate one, why not just go start your own site?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Why would anyone get "pissed off" at an opinion different from theirs? That seems like an awfully strong reaction to just an opinion, i dont get angry that people believe in Helter Skelter and Vinces theory, if thats what they want to believe theyre entitled to believe it, im secure enough that my theory is the way it really happened so i dont get pissed off at what others think

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Isnt that what these blogs are for, to discuss the case? Seems to me that it would be pretty boring if everyone thought the same thing and had the same thoughts and ideas on the case, when it comes to TLB i look at it like this, the killers are behind bars (minus Kasabian and hopefully she hasnt killed anyone else) Charlie was always at home in jail anyway, and nothing we discuss on here is going to change anything so all were doing is basically playing a game of Clue, my questions have always been WHY not WHO did it

katie8753 said...

Susan I don't agree with your theory that Rosemary was taken to the safe, but it doesn't mean I believe in the HS theory either. In fact, Bugliosi said he didn't believe any of that either, he just used it to convict Charlie.

As far as motive for Labianca goes, I don't know how Tex taking Rosemary to empty a safe provides motive for these murders. It still doesn't make any sense.

So you're saying Tex calmly took Rosemary to empty a safe, then brought her back and went all psycho and started carving everyone up? How does that make any sense?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Im not trying to be mean here but do you have reading comprehension problems? He took her to either her store or Safeway, got what he was after and then butchered them because hes a killer, ok, hes a person who likes killing, like the Godlike power it gave him over his victims, and also it nakes it impossible for them to identify him later

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

There are people in this world who love killing people, i know its hard for us rational normal people to understand but for some people killing comes easier than breathing, Tex is one of those folks

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

And also what does that tell you about the type of person Bugliosi was? In my mind hes WORSE than Manson because he knowingly sent a man who didnt physically kill anyonevto the gas chamber and wouldnt have lost a minutes sleep over it and let a woman who took part in 5 murders loose, to Vince Charlie was an expendable little piece of garbage to use for his,own purposes and if he had to die to get everyone else so be it

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

You also seem to have this convoluted idea of what a "psycho" or "psychotic" is, by psycho i dont think Tex was a guy who was frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog and just started going nuts with his knife when he entered these homes but when he did start killing after he either got what he wanted or didnt he took relish and delight in cutting everyone up

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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katie8753 said...

Why didn't he just kill Rosemary after she opened the safe? He didn't need her anymore. Why would he even go back to Waverly Drive? He's the one with the money right? He could have just taken off to Hawaii or something.

He already proved he wasn't trustworthy or loyal to the family or Charlie with that Lottsapoppa fiasco. Nobody in the family is gonna tell the cops on him, they were in way too deep.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

To kill her at a place with no potential witnesses, to go back for the firls, to not gave to worry about evidence left at 2 crine scenes, to make it look like a residential attack, theres more questions as to why would he kill her there as opposed to why wouldnt he, also remember yes he may have been a bit of an independant operator but there was still this need to prove himself to Charlie and the girls who up until probably Cielo viewed him as a mommas boy

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Sorry about the typos i gave gigantic fingers and hands, they dont make smart phones for men 6'4" and 300 pounds lol

katie8753 said...

To make it look like a residential attack? Are you now saying you are for the "copy cat killing" motive?

Okay, let's play Devil's Advocate. If Manson never told Tex to kill anyone, only to steal money from people, and Tex killed all those people at Cielo & Waverly, then why didn't Charlie tell Tex "GET LOST! You're causing me way too much trouble"?

He never did that.

Tex wasn't loyal to the girls or Charlie. According to Tex, he told Charlie that his mother said the FBI was looking for him, and then he split. He was never "thrown out" by Charlie.

If Charlie's so innocent, why did he tell Linda, Susan & Clem to kill that actor? Linda testified to that at the FIRST trial, long before Tex said publicly that Charlie ordered him to kill people.

And Charlie did help kill Shorty and of course, cut Gary's face badly. That's hardly innocent.

lurch said...

Hey Sue.....why would Text take Rosemary to open the safe instead of Leno?
Seems it would be safer to leave the girls alone with Rosemary than Leno. And if they went to Gateway to empty the safe, how would she know the combo?
Leno always put the boat away when he got home.....so Text drove around town with Rosemary hostage,in a Thunderbird towing a boat,to empty a safe. All while the girls kept watch over Leno?
And they've kept silent all these years out of fear of mob reprisals and hopes of parole?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I think Leno was already dead or at least mortally wounded and no threat to the girls, if hed taken a healthy Leno along for the drive hed have a big strong heavy man to deal with who one on one would have crushed Texs skinny ass, driving around wouldnt have been any big deal, even if they get pulled over theyre just two adults driving around, and people keep mentioning "emptying a safe", it could have been anything, stocjs, bonds, drugs, cash, jewelry but it didnt necessarily need to be in a safe, i believe there are big details about both nights we havent heard, these places were chosen for REASONS not at RANDOM

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Remember, the raid was a week after the killings and thats when shit started to go haywire, Tex going to Olancha, Charlie running around threatening Wilson for not giving him money, the "family" is in a crisis situation at this point and in my opinion just wanting to get to Barkers and re group, as for Charlie supposedly telling Susan, Clem and Linda to kill Nader, Linda is the only one ive heard claim that and as we all know shes not exactly the most honest person, the only thing i remember Susan saying about the rest of that night in the car is that she fell asleep and woke up back at the ranch and ive never read where Grogan said anything about it, as for Hinman yes by all means Charlie should have done time for cutting Gary, at least a few years in my opinion, all ive ever heard about Shorty is that Manson was in the car behind Ckem, Bruce and Tex and possibly saw Shea being attacked but im assuming drove off with Vance and Bailey before he was killed, my opinion on Charlie is similar to what Dennis Wilson said about him "Charlie was an asshole and a criminal but this family shit is all wrong, i know it"

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Remember, Susan, Pat and Leslie only went with the "Charlie told me to do it" story after the death penalty was temporarily rescinded and their sentences commuted to life with chance for parole, when they realized there was a chance to get out by placing it all on Charlie thats what they did

katie8753 said...

Susan you're wrong. I think Leno was already dead or at least mortally wounded and no threat to the girls. Rosemary screamed as Leno was being killed "what are you doing to my husband?" She heard him being killed. She wasn't gone, she was THERE.

You said "people keep mentioning emptying a safe". YOU MENTIONED IT!

as for Charlie supposedly telling Susan, Clem and Linda to kill Nader, Linda is the only one ive heard claim that and as we all know shes not exactly the most honest person, the only thing i remember Susan saying about the rest of that night in the car is that she fell asleep and woke up back at the ranch and ive never read where Grogan said anything about it

Linda testified about that at Charlie's trial, much to his chagrin. Plus Susan bragged about "taking a dump" on Nader's porch. Grogan bragged about "killing more pigs".

Bruce, Clem & Tex all said that Charlie was there ordering Shorty's murder and participating in it!

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Thats what i just said, he was killed or at least mortally wounded before they left, if the plan was for Tex to leave with Rosemary what sense would it make to leave a 250 pound man who had seen combat action behind with two weakling doped out women, how does "i took a dump on the stairs" correlate with "we went there to kill him" and when did Grogan brag about "killing more pigs" and even if he meant Nader its a moot point because Nader wasnt touched, and ive never read even ONE account by anyone claiming Charlie physically took part in Shortys murder

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Charlie is guilty of the following, shooting snd wounding Bernard Crowe, slashing Gary Hinmans ear, having knowledge after the fact of the murders at both Cielo and Waverly and not telling police, POSSIBLY going back to Cielo to tamper with the crime scene, possibly having knowledge of Shortys murder after the fact and burning the Michigan loader, all of which he should have been held until no longer than 1979-1980

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Forgot, entering Labianca home for the purpose of robbery and tying Leno and Rosemary

katie8753 said...

Well, that's not how the girls described it and that's not what the evidence shows. But since it doesn't fit your new theory, I can see how you dismiss all evidence.

I can see that you are a "snowflake". Believe what you want. It has nothing to do with reality.

Worship at Charlie's feet. I'm sure he'll reward you at some point with a moldy moth-eaten vest. LOL.

And that's all you get! Except for maybe a cryptic letter from him that looks like hieroglyphics from a cro-magnon pre-humanoid.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol im the furthest thing from a "snowflake", im a 46 year old white male conservative slightly to the right of Rush Limbaugh, i just dont believe in charging people with crimes theyre not guilty of, how is saying that Charlie is a piece of shit who should have served 10 years in prison "worshipping Charlie"? Lets get this straight Charles Manson is a lifetime criminal and a scumbag and if he ever sent me a letter id throw it straight in the trash, i simply believe that he DID NOT tell anyone to kill anyone and even if he did it doesnt make him guilty of first degree murder, Charles Manson was used as a pawn by a power hungry, ladder climbing DA who saw dollar signs and all his political dreams and aspirations wrapped up in a neat little uneducated, unsophisticated, illiterate sawed off little Kentucky boy with a hooker for a mommy and the jailhouse for a daddy

Dilligaf said...

Whether you want to dispute the Wooly Hophead's guilt is your choice, but California law is cut and dried regarding laws of conspiracy and guilt. The hophead's actions squarely met the Mens Rea requirements for Conspiracy. Whether he told anyone to kill or not is irrelevant, he was as guilty as any of the others, and as such, deserved the death penalty just the same. With his subsequent sentence commutation, there is no better place for him than his current home at Corcoran. No one is responsible for his plight except him. Posturing does not change that one bit.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I concede to your position on the laws, he was found guilty by the statutes on the books and he has to take what comes, but i disagree with you on his guilt and his deserving the death penalty

katie8753 said...

Okey dokey! You forgot to mention that you're 6'4" tall and weigh 300 lbs. a BIG-UN!!

(Guffaw, knee slap, hand hitting side, laughing hysterically).

I wonder if your waistline matches your IQ.

(Hee hee, ha haa haa, snicker, hoo hoo).

Just kidding. I'm sure you're an able bodied person who can completely understand the TLB saga, and in fact you figured it all out.

(Whinny, horselaugh, slobber)

Have a nice evening!

(wince, wonder what happened, don't even care, wonder who the next fool is)

CarolMR said...

I honestly don't remember the reason why Maury Terry believed Tex left Waverly with Rosemary. I think he believed it had something to do with drugs. And probably something satanic because Terry believed everything was caused by something satanic. When I first read his book it made sense to me but over the years I came to think a lot of his theories were kind of ridiculous.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Let me ask you a question or present a situation to you and get your thoughts, you and I walk into a bar and sit down, were talking for a bit and a drunk in the seat next to you calls your mother a whore, youre visibly angry so i say to you, "man thats pretty fucked up, you know if he said that to me id kill him, as a matter of fact you should kill him, do it right now, kill him" and you pull out a gun and shoot him through the heart and kill him, am i guilty of first degree murder and should i get the needle in the little room for it?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol yeah im gonna lie about my height and weight on the interwebz to a bunch of strangers ill never meet, i was simply stating that to say that i have fat fingers and tend to punch 2 letters at once slot of the time, i dont remember ever making any personal insults to you so i dont understand why youre doing it to me, hell ill be five feet two andca hundred pounds if it makes you feel better, what i or you look like makes absolutely no difference to the conversation, and i never said i had the TLB case "all figured out", i said i have certain opinions and theories on the case but i fully admit that i could be wrong, it sure as as hell wouldnt be the first time

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I remember reading Terrys book back in the 80s as a teenager and being scared shitless by it but i agree with you that Maury was way too obsessed with the satanism thing

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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katie8753 said...

Susan I'm not making fun of you. I was just being silly last night. Sorry if I offended you.

Your example of sitting in a bar next to an obnoxious drunk isn't nearly on the same level of telling people to kill a bunch of people for no reason at all.

Carol I agree. I haven't read Terry's book (that I can remember) but I did read excerpts and I don't believe that Manson and Gibby had dinner in San Francisco or whatever it was he alluded to.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

How is it different? Manson supposedly told Watson and the girls to kill those people and i tell my friend to kill the guy and they both do, ill even change it and tell my friend "i ORDER you to kill that guy as gruesome as possible, would i still be guilty of first degree murder and the lethal injection?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Katie dont read Terrys book late at night its spooky, i remember reading it at 17 and looking behind me every few minutes lol, he really breaks down the Son of Sam/Berkowitz case pretty thoroughly, now in that case i really do think there were some aspects of satanism and possibly a second assailant

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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katie8753 said...

Well if you told your friend to kill several people on different occasions, you might get the death penalty because you conspired to kill people.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Thats not what i asked

Dilligaf said...

Susan, your illustration is lacking many different of the underlying facts f the case. However, just sitting with a person and telling them to kill someone would not meet the requirements of the charge. Now, let me ask you a few questions regarding your scenario. Have you and your friend been around ach other for a long time? Is there a subservient relationship? Have you been plying your friend with drugs, which lowered their resistance? Has you friend committed crimes for which you have benefited? All of these factors played a role in the successful prosecution of the Wooly Hophead.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Manson fed Tex and Susan speed on August 8? Tex had been "around" Manson for about a year, Susan for 2 years, Kasabian for about a month and Pat obviously since pretty much the beginning of the little harem, Tex and Susan were both known for going off from time to time doing their own thing and then coming back to the ranch usually with some type of trouble following them, it wasnt only Charlie who was benefitting from the various thefts, stolen credit cards, stolen cars and parts, ripped off drugs, Lindas stolen 5 grand, etc, like MANY people involved in the case have said (including family members) Charlies attitude was do what you want and think is right, there is no wrong, the whole subservient idea came in after their death sentences were commuted and they knew there was a possibility of freedom by claiming to be under Charlies control

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

yes i believe Charlie ordered them to STEAL not KILL

Does that make Charlie guilty of robbery ?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Also how exactly did Charlie benefit from Lotsapoppa, Hinman, Tate or Labianca? I have a THEORY that Tex got a stash of dope from Cielo and cash from Waverly but what is officially known is Tex engineered the Crowe ripoff and Charlie had to bail him out of that by wounding a guy with possibly dangerous connections, Hinmans fiat was impounded after Bobby got caught in it, no idea what happened to the VW bus, only 73 bucks according to the "official" story from Cielo and reportedly only some change and a dress from Labianca, seems to me the only thing Charlie inherited from all that is a whole lot of trouble

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

No because he dudnt physically take anything, like i said in my opinion his guilt at Labianca was breaking in (as far as i know even if you open a door to a place where youre not wanted is breaking and entering) and possibly tying them up

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Remember, Susan, Pat and Leslie only went with the "Charlie told me to do it" story after the death penalty was temporarily rescinded and their sentences commuted to life with chance for parole, when they realized there was a chance to get out by placing it all on Charlie thats what they did

You are factually incorrect on all counts.
Susan testified before the grand jury that she was instructed by Charlie and she told Graham and Howard in jail that she had been directed by Charlie.
Leslie told Marvin Part that she was directed by Charlie. Read her incendiary interview on Cielo's site. You can't deny it.
Pat told Dr Claude Brown that she ran away from Charlie to Mobile because she was scared he'd find her and kill her. She also said she was scared they'd be caught for the killings but Charlie said no one could touch them.
But Charlie could see Pat was wobbling badly. She was fighting extradition and he put pressure on her to come back to LA. Her fear of him that led to her running away is because she was likely to speak out of his role publicly as she'd done to Dr Brown ~ and Charlie knew it.
All of these took place in 1969.
Simple fact: When Linda, Pat, Susan and Leslie were away from Charlie's influence, when he was in jail, each one of them told people totally unconnected with the Family that he was the fulcrum upon which these murders turned. All in 1969. In 1970, he worked on Pat to stop fighting extradition, on Leslie to not let any psychiatrist examine her {he'd know she'd spilled all to Marvin Part but it was inadmissible in court due to attorney ~ client privilege} and to sack Part for someone he approved of, on Susan to recant her grand jury testimony and tried to work on Linda to return to the Family, personally writing to her.
It worked with them all except Linda.
It also serves to demolish your point.
All of your points actually are easily demolished. You'll say that Charlie ordered them to steal but that Tex was crazy psycho enough to get the stuff he ordered them to steal but in the same breath you'll say that Charlie says crazy shit and we're suckers to believe it yet obviously you've based some of what you believe on what Charlie says.
Your raison d'ĂȘtre is faulty and half the reason your points don't get answered is because you knock out so many of them in rapid fire, not because they have much merit.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

You just proved my point, when they were with him at the trial there was no mention of "Charlie made me kill", his emergence as the dictator who ordered them to do everything came afterwards, i read nothing in Susans testimony to the grand jury saying Charlie told us to do everything and we were under his control, as for Tex he was his own man when by himself and a Charlie lackey when Manson was around, read some of DeCarlos stuff and youll see what i mean

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

And regarding Pats statements to Dr. Brown where did she say Charlie ordered us to kill? All i see is that she says shes scared he'll find her and kill her and that she was afraid of getting caught but Charlie said no one could touch them

katie8753 said...

Susan, what you asked has nothing to do with what Charlie did.

katie8753 said...

Why would Pat be afraid that Charlie would find her and kill her if he doesn't kill people?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Because he threatened it just like he threatened Susan and alot of girls on the ranch, remember Charlie was a pimp thats what pimps do with women, control by intimidation, look im not making apologies for Charlie, he was a piece of shit but hes not a killer or a conspirator to murder

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

How is it different, youre alleging that Charlie told those people to kill and in my example im telling my friend to kill, if Charlie is guilty of murder how would i not be?

Dilligaf said...

Uh, actually, according to the State of California, and correctly so, he was, and still is, guilty of Conspiracy To Commit Murder. This really is not a debatable issue....

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Im not debating that, im debating the fairness of the law

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Only instead of CORRECTLY so i would say INCORRECTLY so

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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katie8753 said...

Well it's like Dill pointed out, there are several different factors in the TLB case that aren't in your scenario.

Whether you want to admit it or not, Charlie spent lots of time training these kids to do what he wanted. That's a fact. And you can dispute that fact all you want, but it still remains a fact.

If you're sitting in a bar and you tell someone to "kill someone", it's a lot different than grooming him for a long period of time to think what you want him to think, do what you want him to do, have a reaction that you want him to have, feel no remorse, along with all the hogwash Charlie had time to instill in these people, and he did it with drugs and isolation, the mainstay of cult leaders.

And if you are insinuating that Charlie didn't give them drugs, think again. These kids have said over and over again that all orgies and drug taking was organized by Charles Manson.

And if these girls were afraid that Charlie would kill them, I think they probably have a pretty good reason why to think that.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol youve been watching too much TV, how old were you before you worked up the bravery to check under your bed for the boogeyman?

katie8753 said...

You know, Charles Manson isn't just guilty of killing the folks at Cielo & Waverly drives, Hinman's house & Shorty, he's guilty of ruining the lives of these killers who were stupid enough to listen to his bullshit day after day.

He took in angry young people who had no self esteem and were disenchanted with their lives and sold them a bill of goods that finally made them feel like people again. He brainwashed them into making them think the way his crooked brain thought. And he taught them to kill.

He ruined all these lives. And YES! he deserves to rot in prison for that. Just because his life SUCKED he had to make sure other people went down with him!

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol you seem very emotionally invested in this whole thing, take a minute, breathe, go outside, everything will be ok

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Like Charlie told a reporter who went off on a tangent loke the one you just did "how can one man do all these things? Youre making me a legend" lol

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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katie8753 said...

A legend "in his own mind". LOL.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Why build him up to be one then? "Cult leader", "Guru", "Baddest man alive" lol, you cant brainwash people to do things they wouldnt do anyway, not with drugs, not with intimidation, not any way, Susan Atkins father said himself that she was fucked up way before she met Charlie and he knew eventually shed do something like she did

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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Dilligaf said...

You can't brainwash people to do something they would not normally do, however, you can manipulate the weak-minded, or weak-spirited people, and use them for your own gain. That is what any pimp does, and that is what the Wooly Hophead did. He combined his talents as a pimp and manipulator with various skills learned in lock-up. He did this and more, and benefited in a way which only he could appreciate.

Do you ever grow tired of charging at tilted windmills?

katie8753 said...

Yeah Susan Atkins' father was a fine pillar of society wasn't he? He left his children so he could go drink. And he knew she'd fall for a con man? That speaks volumes.

Manson is what he is. A felon. A pimp. A thief. A user. A child molester. A killer. I'm not building him up at all. I'm just saying what the truth is.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Hes all those things EXCEPT a killer, i agree

CarolMR said...

Katie and Susan - THE ULTIMATE EVIL was the scariest book I had ever read. I remember that at the time I was actually afraid to be alone in the house DURING THE DAY! After I finished the book, I gave it to Goodwill - I just wanted it away from me. Terry presents some very interesting theories and interesting friendships/associations between the killers and their victims. But over time I began to disbelieve most of what Terry wrote. My ex-brother-in-law was a NYC police officer and worked in the same precinct as the last Son of Sam killing. He totally believed that Berkowitz acted alone.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Carol! I'm glad I never read that book.

Night y'all!!

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I vaguely remember that summer, we lived in a suburban town in New Jersey right outside of NY, i was 6 but remember my mom and dad talking about it and hearing about it on TV and radio, my grandma lived on Staten Island her whole life, 87 years, i remember NYC being so dirty and grimy back then, seems like there were always sanitation strikes and i think that summer there was that huge blackout, ill bet alot of people were surprised when they saw what Berkowitz looked like lol, the chubby cheeks and the goofy smile, im actually kind of surprised he wasnt killed being transported around from place to place people hated him so much

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

In a strange twist Berkowitz was arrested on August 10, 1977 lol

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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CarolMR said...

Susan, yes a lot of people were surprised at what a harmless-looking guy Berkowitz turned out to be. Can't judge a book, I guess. I was in my 20s at the time and the terror we felt that summer in NYC was incredible.

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

ive never read even ONE account by anyone claiming Charlie physically took part in Shortys murder

Well, a good place to start is George Stimson's book, "Goodbye Helter Skelter." In the chapter on Shorty's murder, Charlie speaks freely and admits he was there and cut Shorty and "moved on him" and "discombobulated him." As ever, he tries to justify it and puts the responsibility on others, but make no mistake, he physically took part.

grimtraveller said...

6ft Suzy said...

Charlie is guilty of the following, shooting and wounding Bernard Crowe

Charlie did not turn up at Rosina's apartment to just shoot and wound Lotsapoppa. He turned up there with a gun in the back of his band and army man TJ at the ready to plug Crowe.
Intent is an important indication in whether or not something is legit self defence or something more sinister and actions are what we look at to determine intent.



slashing Gary Hinmans ear

He didn't just slash Gary Hinman's ear. He sliced the side of his face and ear with a 5 inch long gash that was an inch deep. Just measure out an inch and have a good look at that depth. Then imagine that on your face.
The ME recorded that wound as being possibly fatal and when questioned in court, said had it not been properly dealt with by a doctor, Hinman could have died. Only Bobby killing him before it had a chance to happen prevents us from knowing if he would have died.

having knowledge after the fact of the murders at both Cielo and Waverly and not telling police

Charlie admits, in George's book, that he gave Tex glasses to plant as a false clue. A false clue for what ? To be planting false clues, you know something is going down beforehand. You don't need to plant false clues if you're going to rip someone off of their drug haul.

POSSIBLY going back to Cielo to tamper with the crime scene

How could he be guilty of possibly tampering with evidence ?

possibly having knowledge of Shortys murder after the fact

Possibly ? He admits he was there and moved on him and cut him. As Shorty died in the attack, I think that would carry more than 11 years.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Again with the coulda, shoulda, wouldas from the famous mulatto TLB researcher Grim Traveller, how do you know what Charlies intent was when he went to Crowes? The fact is he didnt die so what i said is accurate, what you describe with Hinman is exactly what i said he did, slashed his ear, slashed his face basically the same thing, Charlie has said he had absolutely nothing to do with Cielo as many or more times than hes "admitted" to giving glasses to anyone to plant, i said "possibly" returned to Cielo afterwards because no one really knows or has proven that he did, my GUESS is that he did but all it is is a guess, with Shorty nobody has said Charlie physically took part in his killing, again Charlie has denied taking part more times than hes "admitted" to, now that ive completely destroyed you scamper on back to your other blog, youre dismissed

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

now that ive completely destroyed you scamper on back to your other blog, youre dismissed

You don't have the tools to destroy anyone's argument.
I have no problem with you having opinions or even contrary opinions. As I argued on your behalf, incidentally, elsewhere, good discussions require a range of views, some of which will be in agreement, some of which will overlap, some of which will run completely opposed. That's the nature of conversation and that's why I enjoy conversation.
I'm not asking you to change your views, all I do with you is point to where you are factually incorrect or provide alternative explanations for some of the things you have concluded because it seems to me that in reaching some of your conclusions, you have to ignore other things that exist and make your conclusions problematic. A case in point is your statement
"ive never read even ONE account by anyone claiming Charlie physically took part in Shortys murder."
I don't dispute that because if you say you've never read such, then you've never read such. And if nobody has ever said it straight then nobody has ever said it straight. Nobody ever said they saw Tex stab Shorty either but it's not really disputed that he did. But anyway, you introduce the point to demonstrate that Charlie is not a killer and that's cool, but I'm saying that the man himself admitted he was part of the group that killed Shorty. Not only that, he admitted that he knifed him. And not only that, he admits that he made the initial move that disabled Shorty. That makes your position problematic. You are entitled to keep holding to the same view and I am entitled to continue to point out that the information I'm adding changes the equation.
I don't need to insult you or call you names and I don't. That's not my bag and I don't care if you feel the need to continually do so when your points are countered. It doesn't mean your arguments are weak. Or to put it another way, it's not your name calling that make your arguments weak.

grimtraveller said...

NotasnowflakeSuzy said...

ive never read even ONE account by anyone claiming Charlie physically took part in Shortys murder

Whereas, I have. Now, again, it may not alter your opinion but that's not my affair, it's yours. When I hold opinions, they are based on something and something that I can make stand up.
For your perusal, here's Bruce speaking earlier this year:
PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And why did you do that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, when Mr. Shea had been stabbed and virtually unconscious as far as I could tell, uh, Charlie handed me a machete, and he said, I want you to cut his head off. I took the machete, and I had it in my hand, and I couldn't do it. I dropped the machete. I found out I had a limit, and that was what I was not gonna do. Then, uh, Manson handed me a knife, and he said, well you better do something. So, I knew what that meant, so I reached over and, um, cut Mr. Shea. It was a upper stroke, and, uh, cut his shoulder.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So was it Manson that was stabbing him before that?

INMATE DAVIS: He did. I saw him stab him. He had been stabbed by other people, too. I just, I didn't see that part. I got there a little late.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: How did you get there a little late? Weren't you in the car with them all?

INMATE DAVIS: I was in the car. I hesitated to go..I didn't wanna even go down there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What? You get out of the car and go where?

INMATE DAVIS: I stayed in the car. Manson pulled up behind us. He was in another car.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: So when he came by the car, he said c'mon, so I went. And I went down.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Went down where?

INMATE DAVIS: We were down, well, okay. We were parked on the side of the road. There was um, a bank going down...they had taken Mr. Shea down in the underbrush, and that's where the murder happened.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And did he, was he saying stuff, like what are you doin', or was he

INMATE DAVIS: He did say, why are you doin' this. That's the thing I remember hearing him say exactly. He said, Charlie, why are you doin' this? And Charlie said, here's why, and he stabbed him again.


So now you have read one account where someone says Charlie physically took part in Shorty's murder.
The question is, are you willing to let that alter your view ?
I've learned that altering a view isn't a sign of weakness. It can often actually help give you a stronger all round vision which in turn lends certain of your arguments a potency previously lacking.

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Again with the coulda, shoulda, wouldas

Much contained within your various arguments are from the "coulda, shoulda, wouldas" school. And that's partly what makes some of them pretty interesting.

the famous mulatto TLB researcher Grim Traveller

That's grimtraveller, actually.
I know what a mulatto is {now there's a word that, like 'stasis,' has completely left the general vocabulary} but I'm not clear how you are using it. Care to explain just for my benefit ?

how do you know what Charlies intent was when he went to Crowes?

How do you ?

My whole point on Crowe is that of course, we don't know what his intent was, so we look at the evidence, we look at what various players in the saga have said about the incident and from all of this, we draw a conclusion.
Do I think Charlie went there to kill Lotsapoppa ? I honestly don't know, but I think he definitely went there prepared to kill him if push came to shove. That conclusion is based on what he did before he went in there and his own words of what happened once in, as well as Crowe's words and Tex's backstory. I think he lied in certain aspects and I think Crowe lied in certain aspects and that is why we have to apply strategy in working out what happened.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I told you on Crowe ALL YOU HAVE IS THE FACT THAT HE DIDNT DIE, you can speculate all you want on what his "intent" but you cant be tried on what you think, youre tried on what you DO, and you dont know what a mulatto is? Its a mixed breed african and white which judging by your picture is EXACTLY what you are regardless of what you claim, its been my experience that mulattos always try getting people to believe theyre dome exotic mixture of ethnicities and races "im not black im argentinian/ portugese, maori islander/ madagascarian, blah, blah, blah

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Funny Grim i got interested in your claim that Susan told the grand jury that Charlie instructed them to kill and she didnt say that at all, she said Charlie told her to get a change of clothes and a knife and do exactly what Tex told her to do, so you just got crushed again

Marliese said...

Susan, what do you make of the fact that the water skis from the boat were found placed against the fender of Rosemary's car at the top of the driveway?

Marliese said...
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Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Leno probably took them off and put them there when he pulled the car into the driveway

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I didnt pay any attention to the Pam Smart case so i cant really comment on it, unless a case really sparks some interest for me i dont pay attention, the ones ive followed are Bundy, Ridgeway, Bianchi and Buono the Hillside Stranglers, Ramirez, Edmund Kemper, BTK, Berkowitz, Randy Kraft, Danny Rolling, Tommy Lynn Sells, etc

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Bobby Joe Long is another one

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Women just dont inspire any fear in me or most men, theyre so non intimidating and non threatening that you just laugh at them, i always imagine myself laughing my ass off if id been at Cielo on August 9, lol, and then after laughing beating the living shit out of Atkins, Pat and Linda and then asking Tex if he wants some lol, bunch of fucking scrawny untermensch subhuman weaklings

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Davis is full of shit, Clem said it was him that Shorty said it to since Shorty took him in and helped him when his parents first dropped him off at the ranch

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

So only after 45 years Bruce says Manson took part, what about the numerous other times Davis was asked if Charlie took part in it?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Speaking of Shorty Shea what does everyone think about him impregnating 15 year old girls and selling dildos and gay porn for a living?

katie8753 said...

Hey Susan, I've been gone all day but I'm skimming through the comments now and you need to knock that mulatto shit off. Capisce?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Nah i think ill keep it up, thanks for your concern though

katie8753 said...

Susan I don't know about Shorty doing all that, but it's no reason to kill the guy. Manson was certainly no better than that. Who is he to judge Shorty?

katie8753 said...

Marliese I think that Pamela should be in prison with the possibility of parole. And I don't think it's fair that the boys who killed her husband are out now. That sucks.

She denies telling those boys to kill her husband. I don't know if she's telling the truth or not, but if they're out, why doesn't she have a chance to get out?

BTW, you can talk about any case you want to talk about! :)

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Theres a post on the other blog about all of it, its all down in testimony on paper, Mr. Shea worked in a porn store selling fake penises and gay porn and pumped his seed insude two nubile young 15 year old lovelies, not to mention the BIG no no of being involved in a crime against nature in my opinion of a White man being involved with an "african american", no wonder The Soul was angry

katie8753 said...

Hmmm...sounds like the same stuff Charlie did. Like I said, no room to judge.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Yeah Charlie did everything except selling the fag porn and fake cocks

katie8753 said...

He didn't need to sell fag porn, he lived it every day.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Are you insinuating that if Charlie walked into a sandwich shop and ordered a peanut butter and dick sandwich that the order would be relatively easy to fill because Big Chuck would tell them to hold the peanut butter and bread?

grimtraveller said...

A boy named Sue with an STD said...

i got interested in your claim that Susan told the grand jury that Charlie instructed them to kill and she didnt say that at all, she said Charlie told her to get a change of clothes and a knife and do exactly what Tex told her to do, so you just got crushed again

Nice try. Sparkling failure.
Firstly, I never once stated Susan said that Charlie instructed her to kill.
In order to understand this case, you really need to not be so keen to be right, but to understand what various things mean. In order to do that, you need to have some inkling into what those that were around Charlie understood by the various things he would say to them. For example, Bobby can state quite clearly that Charlie did not issue a command to kill Gary, not in those words "kill him." But he understood from the import of Charlie's "You know what to do" exactly what Charlie meant.
Similarly, Leslie never says she was explicitly told to kill by Charlie. But when he asked her if she was crazy enough to kill and if she believed in his thing and why it had to be done and then told her to get a change of clothes and then came out of the LaBiancas explaining that they were sure it was a robbery etc, she understood exactly what Charlie was saying.
So when Susan says Charlie told her to get a change of dark clothes, a knife and to do whatever Tex told her to do, she understood that whatever orders came from Tex came from Charlie.
It's not rocket science. It's simply a matter of understanding what Charlie meant and what his friends understood by what he said. It's not dissimilar from being around teenagers actually. Sometimes, their language cannot be understood the way most adults would if the same words were being spoken by adults.
But if you're simply going to go by your own understanding of what a word means, then you are always going to be way off beam ~ and you often are.
And what I actually said about Susan, Pat, Leslie and Linda was that away from Charlie in '69, they all said that that he was the fulcrum upon which these murders turned. Susan, Leslie and Pat did not speak of the murders apart from Charlie. Susan's initial statements to Howard & Graham and Van Houten's to Part show that from the very start, this was a Charlie inspired event and significantly, in both cases, neither expected their comments to go any further; Atkins because jail people were supposed not to snitch, Van Houten, because what she said to her lawyer was inadmissible.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol in other words if i tell my friend to walk down to the store and buy me a pack of gum and he shoots the store clerk then tells the cops "well my friend set up an atmosphere of intimidation, violence and death so i killed the clerk" then im guilty of murder, both the law and you are fucked

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

And again Captain Mixed Breed, im not arguing what the law is, i know what the law is, im arguing how wrong it is

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lets send a man to the gas chamber based on what a bunch of 20 year old kids on drugs THINK he meant by telling them do what you want to do and what you think is righr, like Harold True said "all Charlie Manson ever told them people is do what you think is right"

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

on Crowe ALL YOU HAVE IS THE FACT THAT HE DIDNT DIE, you can speculate all you want on what his "intent" but you cant be tried on what you think, youre tried on what you DO

That's rather ignorant. Attempted murder needs the perp's thoughts and/or their actions to see if the charge can be brought.
Charlie wasn't arrested for Crowe. I don't know if the Police even spoke to him about it.
End of that one.
So when we talk about Crowe, Charlie's actions are important to consider and so that's what we do. Did he intend to kill Crowe ? Maybe. It's an interesting talking point, I don't know why you're capitalizing your letters to demonstrate your agitation. And besides, you're the one that declared that Charlie was guilty of shooting and wounding Crowe.

and you dont know what a mulatto is?

Sometimes, you don't need to be caught out to demonstrate how ignorant you can be when you get excited. I already told you very clearly in the post directly above yours that "I know what a mulatto is" and then I went on to ask you how you were using the word because it's a word that is so rarely used anymore. I haven't heard someone use it in decades. Unlike you, I don't assume that my way of thinking or usage of words is the only right way.

Its a mixed breed african and white which judging by your picture is EXACTLY what you are regardless of what you claim

Regardless of what I claim.
Oh, Dave !
I actually like you and your spirited defence of your thoughts on the TLB case, even though much of what you say has holes so wide that one could drive a bus through and be overtaken by a motorbike. I'm actually surprised that I feel embarrassed for you.
For the record, I'm not of mixed race, both my parents were Black Nigerians and so were all their ancestors as far back as anyone can remember. I actually recall my Dad having a family tree and explaining the various people in it, but that's another story.
If I was of mixed race, nothing would change. You'd still come across rather ignorantly.

its been my experience that mulattos always try getting people to believe theyre dome exotic mixture of ethnicities and races "im not black im argentinian/ portugese, maori islander/ madagascarian

That's your problem right there ¬> you live on a planet with billions of people on it but the universe revolves around your limited world, your limited world view and your limited experience of people.

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Speaking of Shorty Shea what does everyone think about him impregnating 15 year old girls and selling dildos and gay porn for a living?

It underscores the fact that few in this whole saga, whether it be victim, killer, law enforcement or witness, came out of this smelling sweetly. It's a very human story and as such, reminds us that we all have skeletons in our closets that could be made to look a particular way by someone with an axe to grind or a story to tell and if we currently don't, we will one day.

Davis is full of shit

If you had said anything other than that or something similar, I would have been genuinely surprised.

So only after 45 years Bruce says Manson took part, what about the numerous other times Davis was asked if Charlie took part in it?

There has never been any doubt that Charlie took part. Bruce's parole hearings are about Bruce. Sometimes, they take a wide swing, such as when he implicates Tex in Shea and goes on to answer amazing questions as to whether he thinks Tex should be paroled {he says no, by the way}, but they are not concerned with Charlie, Bobby, Susan, Mary or Clem. Just Bruce.
Charlie himself says "I did [force Bruce to cut Shea]. I did."
Interesting.

the BIG no no of being involved in a crime against nature in my opinion of a White man being involved with an "african american", no wonder The Soul was angry

No wonder you're determined to to declare the soul's innocence or minimize his culpability when even he doesn't agree with you !
Incidentally, if a man and a woman "get involved" as you put it and have sex, how can that be a crime against nature ? Are you genuinely stating that any child produced in a liaison of a white man and Black woman is, well, whatever you deem "against nature" to be ? Come to think of it, if a child is produced that's as human as any other, how can it be against nature ?

grimtraveller said...

Suzycreamcheese said...

like Harold True said "all Charlie Manson ever told them people is do what you think is right"

Like Harold True said; "Charlie Manson, where did he go to do the killings ? He went to the 2 places he knew in LA, and 2 places only; He went to my house and he went to [David] Melcher's house because we told him he couldn't live in our house and Terry Melcher told him he couldn't make shit with a [voice ?] of a record album....."

Harold True said a lot of things !

im not arguing what the law is, i know what the law is, im arguing how wrong it is

You don't actually argue that the law is wrong. You argue as though your opinions of how you think the law should be actually carry any weight and can somehow magically rescind what has already been the case for 48 years.
I think a discussion on some of where the law falls down or is wrong would be a good one but I'm beginning to lose faith that you could conduct one sensibly or constructively.

Captain Mixed Breed

Are you calling White people a breed ? You really ought to have more respect for yourself and your ilk.

Lets send a man to the gas chamber based on what a bunch of 20 year old kids on drugs THINK he meant

Dave, Dave, Dave !
It is not what they "think he meant," it's what their understanding of his words, fostered within the daily, drug expanded, eyeball to eyeball environment of their lives together, meant to them. And he knew what he meant and so did they.
Come on, you're not unintelligent. You know as well as anyone that there are plenty of communities that have a language all of their own and within those communities, things will be said that might mean one thing to you as an outsider but have a totally different meaning to those in the know on the inside.

Marliese said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

You strike me as an older gal who lives alone with a whole bunch of cats, Marliese

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

Susan I think you're pushing the publish button too many times. Saying it twice doesn't make it more emphatic! Just sayin'!

katie8753 said...

Hey Susan, here is Sadie saying that Charlie told them to kill...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q-LiARYmqc

Marliese said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marliese said...

Several posts back, Susan, you said you like to imagine if you'd been at Cielo, you'd have beat the shit out of the girls and had some fun with Tex.
I have a few words for you...Tex had a gun.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Tex was a little girl

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Like i said years after the fact when they thought blaming Charlie for everything would get them paroled, and you saw how much the parole board agreed with her, they let her skanky ass die in prison with cancer, now Krenwinkel is playing the victim card as well "im a victim of domestic abuse" lol ok Patty lets see how far that gets you, if they could blame Charlie for the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, the Chicago fire and 9/11 theyd do that too

katie8753 said...

Quentin Tarantino made this comment about his upcoming film about the Manson murders:

"It's being misrepresented as a Manson film – that is all I can say," he told the New York Daily News.

I wonder what that means...

http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/film/news/a16628/quentin-tarantinos/

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I think it means its going to be more about Sharon with "the family" probably playing a part in the story

katie8753 said...

I put the comment moderation on for the night. I'm not gonna deal with this bullshit all night. I'll take it off in the morning.

Night y'all!

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

To quote Hank Williams jr "my friends all call me Superman, i never let nobody get the upper hand" lol

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

To quote Hank Williams jr "my friends all call me Superman, i never let nobody get the upper hand" lol

Bobby said...

Susan/Dave, call me.an interent tuff guy if you want to. I do not want to read anymore comments from you that insult Marliese or Grim. Those comments have no place here. You are new , I get it. Have some respect for these people that I have become fond of. Keep your racist and woman hating views to youself or get on some like minded blog.

Bobby said...

Susan/Dave, call me.an interent tuff guy if you want to. I do not want to read anymore comments from you that insult Marliese or Grim. Those comments have no place here. You are new , I get it. Have some respect for these people that I have become fond of. Keep your racist and woman hating views to youself or get on some like minded blog.

katie8753 said...

Bobby!!!!!!!! You're so SWEET!! :)

Marliese said...

Oh Bobby! So happy to see you! How are you? Just the other day, when the insults were flying, I thought I miss Bobby's calm sense! Great to see you.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Are you a wimpy little cuckold bobby?

Bobby said...

Hi Marliese, Doing okay & I hope all is well for you too. I've been following the blog and the insults. Not sure what he called me other than wimpy little. Great to see you posting

Bobby said...

Hi Katie!

Bobby said...

Hi Katie!

Bobby said...

A cuckold is the husband of an adulterous wife. In evolutionary biology, the term is also applied ... The word cuckold derives from the cuckoo bird, alluding to its habit of laying its eggs in other birds' nests. The association is common in medieval ...

Nice to learn a new to me word, seems I also learned that posting from my android phone double post's just like Susan/Dave. Glass houses right.

Dave the dress thing, I sure others have brought up modesty, strangers in the house no time or taking the chance of being naked so just put something over. Just my guess.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

She wasnt naked she had a nightgown on already

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bobby said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

She wasnt naked she had a nightgown on already

yes I understand that, She was going to the time to remove the night gown then put on a dress which may have result in being caught naked so she put a dress on over it.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Why would she be putting on a dress after she took off the nightgown if she was going to bed?

Bobby said...

I'll try one more time. 1. She has nightgown 2. Strangers enter house 3. No time un dress then re dress so she puts dress on over nightgown because she is modest and does not want to be seen in nightgown by the strangers.

Bobby said...

1. she has the nightgown on.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Still makes no sense, no one puts a dress on over a nightgown unless they are going somewhere, plus in his book Tex said "we walked up the driveway with the CAR WITH THE BOAT ATTACHED PARKED IN THE DRIVEWAY and the car and boat was found the next day parked in the street and Charlie reported tying both Leno and Rosemarys hands together when he went in and she was found the next day untied, Tex took Rosemary somewhere, youre theilory has been thoroughly destroyed now go back into class from recess, the men are talking here

katie8753 said...

Hey Susan, I deleted your last comment. Why? BECAUSE I CAN!!!! HA HA

This blog is not a blog that trashes the victims. If you want to trash the victims, then go to a blog that does that, or open your own.

Now as to your last comment, as sick as I am for going over this again and again, let's do this again, and I'll talk really slow so EVEN YOU can understand it:

Rosemary LaBianca went to bed. She put on a nightgown. She was interrupted by a hairy goomer that looked like a swarthy hippy, which he was. Charles Manson. She gasped. He told her to get up and go into the living room to join her husband. She was feeling modest. Charlie told her to put something on over her gown (he said this in an interview). She grabbed a dress off the back of the chair.

no one puts a dress on over a nightgown unless they are going somewhere .

Where'd you dream that up? Is that in the Tex/Charlie handbook? You don't understand that someone might want to put something on over a nightgown when a COMPLETE STRANGER ENTERS YOUR BEDROOM?

plus in his book Tex said "we walked up the driveway with the CAR WITH THE BOAT ATTACHED PARKED IN THE DRIVEWAY and the car and boat was found the next day parked in the street and Charlie reported tying both Leno and Rosemarys hands together when he went in and she was found the next day untied

Since when do you believe anything Tex said??? Most of your barkings are that Tex is a psycho and completely unhinged, but then you want to base your opinions on things that Tex said in his BOOK?

You can't have it both ways! Either Tex's comments are completely unreliable, or they are all sane and should be considered.

Tex has NEVER mentioned taking Rosemary ANYWHERE in his book. Is he telling the truth? Or is he insane? You keep quoting him both ways. You need to PICK A SIDE!

So what is it? Is Tex insane, or is he lucid?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol go ahead and do whats so en vogue today and just erase dissenting opinion, i had an interesting experience in the gym tonight, i was simply telling a guy that the main stream media will never like ANYTHING Trump says or does because they have a personal dislike for him and a young guy overheard us talking and said "you know i dont want to hear anything about that man and dont like you talking about him" and i told hom youre just gonna have to suck it up and deal with it because this is America and in this country we're allowed to express our opinions,

katie8753 said...

Okay but you didn't answer my question.

katie8753 said...

My questions is this: Is Tex telling the truth in his book or not? Because you keep leaning toward his book for truth, but yet you say he's a psycho.

katie8753 said...

It's got nothing to do with Trump.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Well the same applies to Charlie then, if you believe him when he said Rosemary put on the dress merely to be modest and cover herself then you have to believe everything else he said namely that he had nothing to do with planning the murders

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

He didnt come out in his book and say "i never left the house with Rosemary" did he?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

It goes to a bigger point of simply deleting what you dont like reading even though official homicide reports support what i said about Rosemary

katie8753 said...

Well touche about Charlie's comment. But don't bother about Tex's book. Just because he didn't mention leaving with Rosemary doesn't mean he did.

His book was explicit! And he never mentioned taking Rosemary ANYWHERE.

katie8753 said...

It goes to a bigger point of simply deleting what you dont like reading even though official homicide reports support what i said about Rosemary

Oh please give me a fucking break! HA HA.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

So short answer is yes i believe Tex is telling the truth about the car being in the driveway when they arrived and simply didnt confirm or deny that he left with her

katie8753 said...

I won't let you trash the victims. PERIOD!

katie8753 said...

Then if you believe Tex about the boat in the driveway, why don't you think he mentioned taking Rosemary anywhere?

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