Friday, March 1, 2013

Gov. Jerry Brown on Friday blocked parole for Manson Family member Bruce Davis. (California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation / March 1, 2013) 

Saying he still poses a threat to society, Gov. Jerry Brown on Friday blocked parole for Manson family member Bruce Davis.

“Until Davis can acknowledge and explain why he actively championed the Family’s interests, and shed more light on the nature of his involvement, I am not prepared to release him,” the governor wrote in his decision.
Davis, 26 at the time of the killings, was convicted and imprisoned in 1972 for his role in the murders of two men, ranch hand Donald “Shorty” Shea, who also worked as a Hollywood stuntman, and aspiring musician Gary Hinman.

Details of Shea’s killing have always remained murky, muddied more by Davis’ recent account that the ranch hand was taken to a different location and killed not the night that prosecutors claimed, but the following morning. Another Manson family member, Steve “Clem” Grogan, allegedly cut off Shea’s head. Grogan, the only Manson family member convicted of murder to be set free, won parole in 1985 by leading law enforcement to Shea’s body. California corrections officials said he has since had no criminal offenses in this state.

Like Grogan, Davis, now 70, was not implicated in the 1969 murders of actress Sharon Tate and four others in a Benedict Canyon home, nor of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. Hinman was held captive for days, tortured and then killed in July 1969 as part of an extortion plot at the outset of the infamous Manson family murder spree.

Shea’s August 1969 stabbing and beheading death took place after, in August or September 1969, because Manson believed he was a police informant.

[Updated 12:55 p.m., March 1: Davis’ attorney, Michael Beckman, said he was “disappointed and saddened by the governor's horrible decision to play politics yet again with Bruce Davis' life.” Beckman said the governor’s reasons for denying parole would be “laughable if the consequences for my client weren't so devastating."]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/political/la-me-ff-manson-family-parole-20130301,0,2553587.story

===================================================================

Lynyrd Responds to the Outcome:

It seems, I'm a bit late to the party.
I had responsibilities today, which could not be ignored.

Thanks Katie for posting this news in my absence, and thanks Marliese for visiting... it's always good to see you.

I'm truly saddened by the outcome of this situation.

This decision speaks volumes, regarding the shortcomings of our system.
Brown's decision is clear admission, that our system is majorly flawed. 

Chew on this:
A man gets approved (for a second time) by our own board of prison terms. 
This board of course, is not a lone individual mind you... but a "panel" of folks, who make these decisions every day.
These are appointed officials.

And once again, their decision is reversed.
Once again, our own system, is in disagreement with itself.

This complete inability of our politicians and legal entities to reach consensus, is the same exact situation, which led to the reversal of Davis' original death sentence!

My post from a previous thread:

"In a nutshell.... from the late 1960's through the early 1990's in California... the public and politicians were heavily in favor of capital punishment... while the Courts, both State and Federal, were strongly opposed. 

That struggle persisted for over two decades. 
The politicians and public, kept passing Pro Death Penalty laws... and the courts (both state and federal) thwarted their efforts around every turn (with abolition laws). 

The Pro Death Penalty laws were in place so temporarily, and moreover, were so effectively undermined by the courts, they became (for all intents and purposes) worthless. 
The Pro Death Penalty laws became "defacto" at best."

We have literally gotten NOWHERE in 40 years!
"We've come a long way baby"???
NOT.

I'm totally disgusted.

Then people wonder why there's violence and apathy in prison? 

Attorney Beckman said:
“I'm disappointed and saddened by the governor's horrible decision to play politics yet again with Bruce Davis' life.  The governor’s reasons for denying parole would be “laughable if the consequences for my client weren't so devastating."

I agree with attorney Beckman.
This situation is completely disheartening.

My main question, is this:
Why (the funk) are we even having these parole hearings??
Seriously.  What is the point?
Can we finally just admit, that we're simply "going through the motions" because we have to?
Can we at least, admit that much???

Regardless of our feelings towards Davis personally, and our views on his retainment...
can we all at least admit, that these parole hearings have become a complete farce?

It seems Manson has made the correct choice.
Shit all over the system, and make no effort towards rehabilitation, because you're not getting out anyway.

Somewhere in a cement prison cell right now... Manson is gloating.
And conversely, Davis... a man who has made every reasonable effort to play by the numbers... is crying.
Quite a message!
Fabulous system we have here... just fabulous.

To say that our system is dysfunctional, is an understatement.
Excuse me now, while I puke.
This isn't even about Davis anymore... it's bigger than Davis... it about hypocrisy.

130 comments:

Marliese said...

Hi Katie, thanks!

katie8753 said...

MARLIESE!!!! Good to see you!! :)

bobby said...

Katie said:

MARLIESE!!!! Good to see you!! :)

Yes it is, I still get all happy when I think about Marliese describing where the Rockford files was filmed and the trailer park they used. Just makes me happy !

katie8753 said...

Bobby...HA HA.

Boy I was way off base on this one. I really thought he might get out. This is really surprising to me.

adam said...

Putting aside any personal feelings one may have about Bruce, this whole parole concept has become a sham and a joke to the American justice/rehabilitation system. Just have the balls to admit it Brown that you are not letting the guy out because you are scared that the media may whip up a frenzy if it's a slow news day.

MrPoirot said...

I'm satisfied that no more Manson Family members will leave prison except in a pine box. B davis is 70 which is an age most lifers get paroled.
This has to be a shock to Leslie Van Houten for when she was first sent up she wrote a short story under the pen name Ima Fibbin in which she tells of the 1st day she entered prison after conciction. She said she would not be released until she was in her 70s.
Ain't gonna happen.

Marliese said...

Ahhh...Bob...you're so good...this will be fun...go to google maps, malibu, zoom in on satellite view for pacific coast highway between zumirez dr and paradise cove rd. you'll recognize Rocky and Jim's fishing pier, the restaurant, the parking area, the rocks. Jim's trailer was parked between the cliff rock at the edge of the cove and the restaurant...in front of the sand. It's all still the same.
Street view gives you pch and paradise cove, but you can get in there and recognize it all from satellite view. Fun! :)

Marliese said...

Thanks Katie! Nice to be here too. :)

Brian Davis said...

Hi Katie ! :) Sorry I missed you earlier I was uploading the press release. Just wanted to "Hiya" back ! lol !

katie8753 said...

HI YA BRIAN!!!

katie8753 said...

Marliese I've really missed you. I hope you come in more often! :)

I hate to admit it, but I kinda feel sorry for Bruce. This has got to be a hard blow. I'll bet this time he thought he might have a chance.

I wonder if he had never surrendered if they would have ever caught him. He's probably sorry he did now. LOL.

Marliese said...

This news today has to be tough on Van Houten. Everyone has been saying if Davis got out, she'd be next.

katie8753 said...

Marliese that's true. I didn't think of that. They probably all hoped Bruce would get out so maybe some day they might too. Except maybe for Manson. He doesn't seem to care where he is. LOL.

Lauren Webster said...

Wow that has to suck for Bruce. All that hope for nothing.

starship said...

[Updated 12:55 p.m., March 1: Davis’ attorney, Michael Beckman, said he was “disappointed and saddened by the governor's horrible decision to play politics yet again with Bruce Davis' life.” Beckman said the governor’s reasons for denying parole would be “laughable if the consequences for my client weren't so devastating."]

starship said...

[Updated 12:55 p.m., March 1: Davis’ attorney, Michael Beckman, said he was “disappointed and saddened by the governor's horrible decision to play politics yet again with Bruce Davis' life.” Beckman said the governor’s reasons for denying parole would be “laughable if the consequences for my client weren't so devastating."]

FrankM said...

We all react in different ways, I guess. I found myself thinking of the Dylan song

… In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the Nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance
William Zanzinger with a six month sentence

Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears


From The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll, one of Dylan’s finest ‘protest’ era songs.

Hear Dylan talk about (and sing) it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYM4WYFAiLg - a good quality recording.

And get the skinny at many places including http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lonesome_Death_of_Hattie_Carroll

If you consider this off topic, pardon me my indulgence

FrankM

Leigh said...

Just read the detailed reasoning from Governor Brown on CieloDrive.com. He provides a solid foundation to justify denying it under the law. It's difficult for me not to be convinced by it. I was never pulling for Davis to get out, but I thought it was more likely than not to happen this time. I think the subtext is clear: there is little hope for him or any of the others. Whether that is fair or not depends entirely upon your conception of justice and interpretation of the law. Both governors' explanations of their refusals made clear what they continue to desire from Davis: full disclosure and the insight that should accompany it. Until he is ready to provide that he's just twisting in the wind.

Michelle78 said...

Wow, I have to say I am a little surprised. I thought that Bruce might get out this time. I can't see how any of them ever get out now. If Jerry Brown wouldn't sign off on a release, I can't think of anyone who would. I'm sure Leslie is almost as crushed as Bruce by the denial. I don't think Pat and Tex ever had any hope that they would be released, but I bet Leslie did and that hope likely died today.

bobby said...

got it Marliese ! Bless you & thank you ! You really made my day.

Bob.

bobby said...

something on Bruce, I know it was a different time but at 26 years of age most men were mature enough to move on from taking advantage of young girls or at least would find one marry and start a family.

just saying.

bobby said...

got it Marliese ! Bless you & thank you ! You really made my day.

Bob.

katie8753 said...

I just noticed that he's only 5'6" tall. I'm taller than he is. LOL.

Marliese said...

You're such a good guy, Bobby.

I am too, Katie! Taller. LOL.

katie8753 said...

I read Lynyrd's commentary on the thread, and I agree to an extent.

But I also agree with Brian's previous statement, a statement I've made many times past, that when the death penalty was abolished they should have converted these people to life without parole. Then this issue would never come up.

But they didn't, and now I'm going back Lynyrd's statement.

They converted these people to life with the possibility of parole. That means they have to decide every few years whether these people should be paroled.

It's a 2-edged sword.

I think in Bruce's situation, he has done everything he can do to show he has been rehabilitated and ready to get out.

But I also know that in previous parole hearings he has minimized his participation in Shorty's murder.

I think that's the key here. Minimize. They've all done that. Van Houten has done that. Krenwinkel has done that. Watson has done that. Bobby has done that.

In the last parole hearing that Bruce had, his attorney advised him to "come clean", which he did.

Too little, too late.

He should have done that at the first hearing instead of hedging around the subject. They ALL should have. But they didn't.

And now...they want to "come clean" and admit everything in hopes to persuade the Governor to let them out.

BUT...are they just holding these hearings for the sake of "record" (i.e., we promised him a hearing and here it is), or are they holding these hearings to honestly decide if a convicted killer goes free?

The Board of Prison Terms decided he should be free. The Governor decided against it. A political move or just a move of emotion?

Jerry Brown was in CA when the TLB murders happened. Maybe that's why he vetoed it. I don't know.

Just my 2 cents. LOL.

CarolMR said...

Thanks, Katie. I'm surprised but not unhappy. For murder, life without parole seems fair. MsBurb, of the 2nd Official TLB Blog, said yesterday Davis will never be granted parole. (I hope it's OK to mention another TLB blog.)

katie8753 said...

>>>Marliese said: I am too, Katie! Taller. LOL.>>>

HA HA. We could "tag team" him easily. LOL.

>>>Carol said: MsBurb, of the 2nd Official TLB Blog, said yesterday Davis will never be granted parole. (I hope it's OK to mention another TLB blog.)>>>

Hi Carol! You can mention MsBurb all you want. I LOVE her!!! I think she's hilarious! LOL.

katie8753 said...

>>>Frank said: If you consider this off topic, pardon me my indulgence.>>>

Frank you can say anything you want about anything you want. We thirst for your comments. :)

To everyone, Marliese, Bobby, Adam, Mr. P., Brian, Lauren, Starship, Frank, Leigh, Michelle & Carol, thanks for stopping by and commenting. Always appreciated.

Well, the big hand is on the 50 (LOL just kidding). It's been a long week and I'm heading to bed. Please feel free to continue your discussions.

Have a great evening everyone!!! :)

Marliese said...

I was just reading that Gov Brown reported his decision from the steps of the downtown LA courthouse today, after meeting with DA Jackie Lacey. I'd love to know details of their conversation. It's been reported that the DA's office sent a letter opposing release, so isn't it interesting that the Gov was in LA today and met with the DA?

Marliese said...

Lynyrd, sincerely appreciate the welcome. Thanks...

katie8753 said...

And I miss St. Circumstance!

G'night Jugdish! :)

katie8753 said...

Thanks Marliese! Night! )

katie8753 said...

Tootsie pops and pop rocks. Hmmmmm.....I'm fresh out.

As Oliver Twist said "be back soon". HA HA.

Just kidding. Night y'all! :)

MrPoirot said...

Katie says
Jerry Brown was in CA when the TLB murders happened. Maybe that's why he vetoed it. I don't know.(end quote)

Poirot replies:

No Katie, Brown was orbiting another planet in 69.

matt prokes said...

Just a theory...
Maybe theres something on those Tex Watson tapes that Brown knows about involving Davis.
Bruce not Brian.

Michelle78 said...

I just read Lynyrd's commentary, and I feel the same way. Had all of the family members been sentenced to life without parole, I would have no problem with that. These people are convicted murderers and life in prison without parole does not seem to me to be too harsh a sentence for that. However they were sentenced to life with the possibility of parole, and in Bruce's case, he has twice been found suitable for parole. What is the point of these parole hearings if a finding of suitability will never be upheld? It's hard to feel bad for these people because their actions are what landed them in prison in the first place, but the fact that findings of suitability are repeatedly being ignored by the governor does make me feel a bit bad for Bruce and Leslie, who for the past 40 years have played by the rules and done everything they possibly could to earn a chance at freedom. They might as well have said eff it, and done whatever they wanted in prison because they aren't getting out anyway.

johnnyseattle said...

Just my opinion, but Gov Brown is not going to release Bruce and then have the Tex Tapes raise all kinds of stories about the crimes of Bruce. Tex talked for hours with his attorney. I wouldn't put it past Tex to be throwing everybody under the bus in an attempt to come up with some bargaining chips. When that became a 'no-go' he elected to go with the diminished capacity defense (ie just a robot high on drugs and following the order of Manson).
Yes, anything on the tapes today would be unlikely to result in a conviction;however, he is a politician and it could prove embarrassing to him at the next election.
And I say this as someone who likes Jerry Brown.

Francis said...

Hello everyone,

I read this blog all the time, I'm a lurker not a poster but do have a question. The article states that Mr. Shea was decapitated, I thought this was proven to be untrue, and if this is the case could this be a reason to appeal the Govs. denial? Or was it that the body was so decomposed that they couldn't say for sure? Thanks for any help clarifying this.

Meanie Reese said...

Who's to say he hasn't come clean? If so, how damn discouraging that would be to be turned down over and over...AFTER the parole board recommends release. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

By the way...I agree that when their death sentences were turned over, they should've gotten life without parole.

Phuqued up justice system, indeed.

MrPoirot said...

Doris Tate founded a formidable organization dedicated to victim's rights. Doris went after the Manson Family just as fiercely as the Manson Family went after her daughter Sharon. Doris had no intention of letting these killers ever get out of jail. You don't mess with Doris Tate. Debra Tate has been a relentless force against the release of any Manson Family members.

Brian Davis said...

matt prokes said... Just a theory...
Maybe theres something on those Tex Watson tapes that Brown knows about involving Davis.
Bruce not Brian.

LOL !!!

Lauren Webster said...

I always look at the interview of Bruce turning himself in, so f'ed up on drugs and laughing at words at the questions and laughing at the word generally and then look at the other interview where he describes the family with all these big fancy words.

He definitely isn't a risk to society, and I do feel he's aware and sorry of the pain he caused, but he continues to play down his involvement in the crimes.

ColScott said...

Has nothing to do with hypocrisy LS, it is all about the law. Governor has oversight on all Parole Hearings and may decline release for ANY reason.
Bobby explained the Clem of it all to me years ago. There were some DAs that were worried that the argument made during the trial that Shorty was still alive was true. They wanted to watch their asses and make sure he was dead. Even then, it was almost a year later that they let him out and it was like the middle of the night. In the age of the internet, nobody with the words "Manson Follower" is going anywhere. The commentators stating surprise that Bruce didn't get out are nuts- they didn't let Sadie out to die in peace even after the lying BUG was okay with it. No one here gets out alive.

adam said...


Blogger Francis said...

Hello everyone,

I read this blog all the time, I'm a lurker not a poster but do have a question. The article states that Mr. Shea was decapitated, I thought this was proven to be untrue, and if this is the case could this be a reason to appeal the Govs. denial? Or was it that the body was so decomposed that they couldn't say for sure? Thanks for any help clarifying this.

---------------------------------

He did not have his head cut off. The body found was intact. This is just the media not doing it's homework on the case.

louis365 said...

To call a 70 yr old man a threat to society is ridiculous, to say the least. He's being kept solely due to his association with Manson.

Chris1967 said...

I really did not see that one coming, the system is proving to be no better than the family was toward their victims… when is his next sham, i mean parole hearing?

If I were Davis I would have a hard time going to another one, either keep him in or let him go stop giving the guy false hope, hell, im surprised he didnt have a heart attack.

Chris1967

Chris1967 said...

I really didnt see that one coming, what a joke. Im surprised he Davis hasnt had a heart attack from stress.
Either Let the guy out or let him stay in. stop giving him parole hearings if they are reversed by someone who is more concerned about re-election than someones life,

Someone on here said maybe Charlie does have it right is sadly turning out to be true…why waste time going through the motions, the family isnt getting out period. The only way out is through a body bag like susan atkins, sad but true…

I personally am stunned, dont wana be a mascot for a murderer but Davis is old, has had good behavior since 72 and has had two paroles granted…and now due to politics, denied. Damn shame.

Marliese said...

If good behavior alone could open the door, Krenwinkel and Van Houten would have been out decades ago.

jeffrey jeff said...

No one convicted of 1st degree murder should be eligible for parole. IMO, Bruce was a bad guy. We probably don't know half of what he has done. I don't care if he wasted taxpayers money getting college degrees in prison. I don't care if found Jesus and became a model prisoner. It doesn't matter if he is a current threat to society or not. He murdered one man and was an accomplice in murdering another. He has to pay and pay and pay until he takes his last breath. After that God can judge him. Good job Governor Brown!

La-de-la said...

Shea's left hand was missing. Check out his autopsy report on Cats' site.

Marliese said...

I think Bruce Davis is more at risk for having a heart attack because he's a 70 year old man, and lived on institution food for 40 years, than stress over another parole denial...prison is his life and he's lived through nearly 30 parole denials.
Unless he has dementia, he knows.

I am sorry for his daughter, but hopefully her mother helped her come to terms with this years ago, if that's even possible.

jmho

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello ColScott.

Colscott said:
"In the age of the internet, nobody with the words "Manson Follower" is going anywhere. No one here gets out alive".


Considering Atkin's denial... and now, Davis' second veto... that seems painfully apparent.

Davis should be making insects out of his socks like Manson, instead of graduating "Summa Cum Laude" with advanced degrees.

------------------------------

Colscott said:
"Governor has oversight on all Parole Hearings and may decline release for ANY reason".


That's understood... but some reasons for denial, are more noble than others.
Therein, lies my point.

A wise man, once said:
"The motive for one's actions, is more important than the action itself"

In plain english... I don't like the reason behind Brown's decision.

If Brown vetoed Davis, because he honestly felt that Davis didn't deserve parole... I'd have no problem with that.
Unfortunately, I don't believe that's the case.

Colonel... You and I both know, that Brown made this decision "to cover his own ass"... plain and simple.
More specifically, Brown made this decision to protect his own political career.
That's where I find this situation hypocritical.

Brown's decision should be based on Davis' record only, not his own political security.

Doing the right thing, is never popular.
Is there one politician left, with the balls and integrity, to do the right thing... even if it jeopardizes their political position?
I guess my faith in mankind, is just too lofty.

I'm completely convinced at this point, that governors should NOT be in the position of making parole decisions... especially, in high-profile cases.

There's no way around it, Colonel:
A high-profile parole decision effects the governor's job... and consequently... the governor cannot be an unbiased entity.
They simply can't be.
They're politicians... and hence... the parole decision becomes "political".

If politicians presided in our courts, instead of judges and juries... we'd be truly f#cked.

The parole board is an unbiased entity, because the members have absolutely nothing to lose, when approving parole for an inmate.
It's unbiased and non-political.
That's why Davis was rightfully approved by the board.

Governors do what's best for themselves.
Any time politicians are involved, the decision becomes "political" and it's not an even playing field.

Heck...
If you're going to use governors to decide such high-profile cases... you might as well, just have the victims' family make the parole decision.
It'd be the same difference.
No one would EVER be released.

I stand by my assertion Colonel... the system is f#cked.
It's completely baffling and hypocritical, to retain Davis at this point.

According to Marliese, Gov Brown reported his decision from the steps of the downtown LA courthouse.
Who is this guy... Pontius Pilate? LOL
(If you recall, Pilate was another politician who "washed his hands of the situation" publicly to absolve himself).

katie8753 said...

Brian Davis is going to have Bruce's attorney, Michael Beckman on his Star City Radio TLB program tomorrow night. This should be VERY interesting! :)

katie8753 said...

It does seem unfair to have a politician make the final decision. I agree with Lynyrd on that one. It's hard to see how that's an unbiased opinion.

I wonder why Gov. Brown waited until the last day to reveal his decision.

Marliese said...

It was according to the AP and long time TLB news reporter, Linda Deutsch. Linda Deutsch has reported on all things TLB since the very beginning. Sorry, i didn't give the source earlier.

Just passing it on...i found it interesting the Governor met with someone in the LA DA's office just prior to releasing his decision. I'd love to know what was said.

Marliese said...

I read that too, La-de-la. Interesting. And i believe the autopsy also indicated Shorty's skull was found separate from the remains of the skeleton...something about animals. Maybe gnawed off.

Marliese said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marliese said...

Creepy clem wanted it known he didn't chop off Shorty's head with a machete, or cut him into nine pieces but the creep let him rot for seven years for animals to feast on and chew up.

Marliese said...

my delete. comment posted twice.

bobby said...

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/state&id=8538491

As of one year ago Brown was letting 80% of lifers out.

The two Gov. before him were much less likely to let them out.

katie8753 said...

>>>Marliese said: It was according to the AP and long time TLB news reporter, Linda Deutsch. Linda Deutsch has reported on all things TLB since the very beginning. Sorry, i didn't give the source earlier.>>>

Thanks Marliese. I've heard of Linda Deutsch.

>>>Just passing it on...i found it interesting the Governor met with someone in the LA DA's office just prior to releasing his decision. I'd love to know what was said.>>>

Yeah that would be interesting. The LA District Attorney supposedly sent a letter to Gov. Brown urging him to reverse the decision to free Bruce.

>>>Creepy clem wanted it known he didn't chop off Shorty's head with a machete, or cut him into nine pieces but the creep let him rot for seven years for animals to feast on and chew up.>>>

Yeah Creepy Clem's all heart. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Marliese said:
"And i believe the autopsy also indicated Shorty's skull was found separate from the remains of the skeleton...something about animals. Maybe gnawed off".

I always encourage in-depth reporting, but that's just way too much information.
LOLOL!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Yeah Bob... 80%.

But, I have to wonder:
Were those lifers that Brown approved considered "high profile"... or were they shmucks that no one's ever heard of?

I'll bet the 20% he denied, were household names.

starship said...

Right on, lynyrd, right on.

Marliese said...

Too much information, maybe so, i don't think so though, not in the midst of decades of the usual misinformation.

And besides, there's no dignity in autopsies, especially an autopsy of the remains of a brutally murdered human...clubbed, bludgeoned, stabbed, and left to rot for seven years.

leary7 said...

Infamy is an oily shadow - not even the bright lights of rehabilitation can diminish it.

Bruce is dead in prison. No successor to Brown is going to want to 'out-liberal' Jerry and be the one to have "Freed Mansonites" on his epithet.

There were two paths former followers of Charlie could take - the first, to denounce him in an outspoken manner, like Leslie and Pat and Gypsy have done. Or second, to take the silent route and try and disassociate by ignoring the elephant in the room. That is what Bruce, Brenda and Mary and others have done.
Path one hasn't worked for Leslie, and path two isn't working for Bruce.
What is interesting to contemplate is wondering if Bruce would consider switching horses at this point. How would he "come clean" as the Gov demands? Would he call Geraldo? Write a book?
The simple fact that nobody seems to believe the whole Manson tale is known is what will keep everyone locked up. It's just to risky for a politician to release them and then have something like the Tex Tapes show they participated or even just knew about other shenanigans.

Charlie is quite the spider, nobody escapes his web.

adam said...

In a roundabout way Bruce is not still in prison because he helped kill Shea, he is still in prison because of the Tate murders.
If there was no connection between the two he would have been out 30 years ago.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Marliese, I was kidding with you.
Sheesh...

katie8753 said...

You know, maybe Bruce should have done what Morgan Freeman did on Shawshank at his last parole hearing when he was finally released. He basically told them he was tired of coming to those hearings and getting denied and they could shove their paperwork. Then he got out. LOL.

BTW, did you know the last name Freeman originated when the slaves were freed because of the Emancipation Proclamation? After the war when the slaves were freed, a lot of them didn't even have a last name, so some of them took on the name "Free-Man" or Freeman.

bobby said...

The state parole board approved 400 releases -- just 10 percent of the cases -- and the governor reversed only 71 decisions. That gives Brown, a Democrat, a higher release rate than his two predecessors. Brown's release rate stands at 80 percent.

LS said "I'll bet the 20% he denied, were household names."

Unlike the 71 other such recommendations rejected by Brown, the governor approved Nguyen’s parole, based in part on his role in helping 50 civilians to safety who were on the prison yard during a 2006 inmate riot.

At the risk of being arguementative and I have not seen the names of the 71 I don't think just don't think any of them would be known in my house.

Kind of like Cliff Claven on Jeopardy" 71 people who have never been in my kithchen.

Come on, thats funny right ?

katie8753 said...

Bobby! HA HA HA. You crack me up. :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Leary said:
"How would he "come clean" as the Gov demands? Would he call Geraldo? Write a book?"


Exactly.

As I've said to Katie, 12 times:

What more could they possibly want from this guy?
A third advanced degree? LOL
Ten more years in prison?
For cripe sakes... Davis is more educated than 99% of the bloggers. LOL
Sadly... that's not even an exaggeration.
As Attorney Beckman said... it's so absurd, it's almost comical.

Is there any other double-murderer in this nation, who has done more time... or earned more degrees?
Statistics?
Anyone?
This has become both "cruel AND unusual"... with the emphasis on "unusual".

Brown's main point, is that Davis has not yet "come clean".

Seriously...
How could Brown possibly know that for sure?
Was he there?

Has it ever occurred to anyone, that maybe Bruce has told all???

Maybe Bruce should begin embellishing his involvement, just to satisfy everyone's thirst for blood.

Here's a plan:

At the next hearing, Bruce should tell the board that he cut Shorty's balls off, and ate Hinman's eyeball.
THEN... (and only then)... will he finally be considered "cleansed".
Jeez...

I mean c'mon Governor Brown:
We're not supposed to be re-trying the entire case here.
We KNOW Davis is guilty... we KNOW this... and, I'm sure Davis has probably figured that out (by now), as well.

Bruce's version of the story isn't gruesome and incriminating enough, yet??? LOL
AS IF.

It's so absurd, one can literally joke about it.

==================================

Leary said:
"The simple fact that nobody seems to believe the whole Manson tale is known is what will keep everyone locked up. It's just to risky for a politician to release them and then have something like the Tex Tapes show they participated or even just knew about other shenanigans".


Sigh.

I don’t know Leary…

We should be making these decisions, based on information we currently have... not on information that may (or may not) materialize in the future.

And then there’s the question:
Is Tex Watson really a credible witness anyway?

Let's assume for a minute (for the sake of discussion), that we actually get those Tex Tapes one fine day.
Let's also assume, that Tex (does indeed) finger everybody, while describing 20 more killings.

They can't punish these people based on Tex's word only.

They'd have to launch more trials, and prove these folks are guilty (of more crimes), in a court of law.
That could be years of red tape.

Under that theory... we should throw Grogan back in jail, pending the release of the Tex Tapes, as well.
We wouldn’t wanna be caught with our pants down. LOL

I'm not trying to play-down the value of these "Tex Tapes" unnecessarily, but we have to make decisions based on today's reality... not things that may (or, may not) be found in the future.

And what happens if these "Tex Tapes" are revealed three years from now, and Davis isn't mentioned at all?
Then what?
Woopsy? LOL

Besides...
They could always re-try Davis for further crimes (if it ever came to that) just like all the others, anyway.
Nothing lost.
I highly doubt it will ever come to that.

It's all bullshit.

If Bruce was given life without parole... that would have been completely cool with me.
But c'mon... this is ridiculous.

At what point does the system begin to look like a complete sham?
After a third approval by the board is denied?... a fourth?
It could happen.

I’m actually hoping that Davis is approved again (and again), just to underscore the absurdity of this situation further.

Peace… LS

katie8753 said...

I was just thinking, these people (excluding Charlie) have been in prison since they were in their 20's. How would they survive on the outside?

Take Bruce for example. He can have every degree from here to kingdom come, but when he fills out that job application, it's going to ask if he's ever been convicted of a felony, and if so, please explain.

When he says yes and explains, it's gonna be "okay thanks for coming in. We'll let you know when we reach our decision".

I mean seriously, how are they going to make it on the outside? They haven't even driven a car for over 40 years! The world has changed drastically since 1971 or 1972 or even 1977.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

The bottom line Bob:

I've lost respect for Brown, regardless of what his statistics may suggest.

It has nothing to do, with our friendship.

leary7 said...

It is an absurd situation Lynyrd. But remember that in politics perception is reality. What politician is going to put himself behind the eight ball for the sake of a Manson follower. There is just to much infamy involved. There is absolutely no question that Bruce deserves parole based on his record and the standard conditions for parole. But as long as the headline will read "Gov ____ releases Manson Family killer" it just ain't gonna happen. It is what it is, to paraphrase Terry Melcher's mom.

bobby said...

It has nothing to do, with our friendship.

I would hope not. Besides, I am on record as being ok with Bruce being released on the basis of the law.

Being that I am a conservative ( right wing nut job ) I am certainly not a fan of Brown.

I was only sharing my google finds on the subject in an attempt to contribute.

and I wanted to toss some jokes in too. Katie laughed.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

It's all good Bob.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Leary said:
"It is an absurd situation Lynyrd. But remember that in politics perception is reality. What politician is going to put himself behind the eight ball for the sake of a Manson follower. There is just to much infamy involved. There is absolutely no question that Bruce deserves parole based on his record and the standard conditions for parole. But as long as the headline will read "Gov ____ releases Manson Family killer" it just ain't gonna happen. It is what it is, to paraphrase Terry Melcher's mom"

You're absolutely right Leary.

No politician wants their name inserted into that headline.
That's the whole ball of wax.
Case closed.

That was my point earlier... you simply expressed it, much more concisely.

"Governor Brown Releases Manson Family Killer".
Yeah... like Brown is gonna approve THAT headline!

Let's call a spade, a spade:
Bruce Davis is a political prisoner.

As my black buddy used to say:
"Politrix".
LOL

I'm done.

leary7 said...

Just to change the subject...
But is it just my warped perception that an inordinate number of our lovely female bloggers seem smitten with our pal Bobby.
Wasn't it true that an inordinate number of Family females were smitten with their Bobby.
Is it de ja vu all over again.

Just kidding Robert. I just want to apply for your wingman position.

katie8753 said...

I knew a girl a few years ago that was in prison for 2 years for drug offenses. She was hooked on meth and forged checks and stole cars for her habit. She got caught and went to a Texas prison for 2 years.

She told me it was absolutely nauseating. Her cellmates actually stank because they didn't shower. She hated it in prison.

When she finally got released on parole, she started trying to find a job.

She told me that every time she had a job interview and it got to the felony conviction, they shunned her like they would stink on shit.

I have never been in prison or even jail. I have never been arrested for anything.

But the bottom line is, these prisoners who are released on parole for a felony crime, be it murder or something smaller, WILL NOT BE HIRED. PERIOD.

So what are these clowns gonna do if they get released?

My take is that they will turn back to a life of crime, because it's the only way to make a living.

Just my 2 cents again.

bobby said...

Leary, that is gonna go right to my head. The job is yours. lol.

Mary said...

I am smitten with Bobby, Lynyrd, Leary, Saint, and others that post here. What a great group of guys that keep my brain stimulated!

katie8753 said...

And parole is complicated. You have to report every week to your officer. Sometimes you go to his/her office, and sometimes they show up at your house.

You have to take piss tests every week to make sure you're clean.

I really don't know how Charlie got thru the parole stuff like he did.

Oh yeah, he named his parole officer some goofy name. From that stupid book. Does anyone know offhand. I can't remember.

If not, I'll look it up tomorrow. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Wow Mary...
Thanks!

I don't know if I've ever been described, as "stimulating" before...

I must say...
I like it! LOL

It has a certain ring to it:
"The brain stimulating Lynyrd Skynyrd Band!"
AHahahahaha

I'm just bustin' ya!

Love Ya Mary!
ALWAYS GREAT to see You!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I could use a good joke from StormSurge right now...

Storm-master... you out there?

katie8753 said...

What was the name of that goofy book Charlie was reading? Damn Sam I can't think of it.

I'll find it....

katie8753 said...

Damn this is gonna bug me. Starship, Matt, Frank, you know what book I'm talking about. What's the name of that stupid book he was reading?

bobby said...

About the guy from Mars ?

Thank You Mary !

MrPoirot said...

kaie are you talking about robert heinlein? Strangers in a strange land

katie8753 said...

YESSSS!!! Thanks Mr. P. I've been wracking my brain!!!

Charles Manson nicknamed his parole officer "Jubal" according to the book "Stranger in a Strange Land".

He got around his parole officer with this tactic.

Thanks Mr P!!!! And thanks Bobby for trying!!!

YEE HAH!

Michelle78 said...

At the parole hearings they ask about their plans for housing and employment once they are released. Bruce had a plan A and a plan B for his release in the event that Plan A didn't have enough space for him. I believe his plans were connected with the ministry, not surprisingly.

I wonder what the record is for number of times being found suitable for parole by the board only to be denied by the governor. I read that Bruce will get another hearing as soon as October, and I would imagine that he will be found suitable for parole every time he goes before the board unless his behavior in prison changes drastically.

katie8753 said...

You are all AWESOME! I'm gonna head to the bunkhouse.

But I just want to say first to Marelise, I'm so glad you're back. I hope you continue to come back because I value your comments. I remember when you and I and Venus and others were commenting on the Cielo Drive video when Michelle Morgan first owned that house and how lovely it was furnished when it was first built. Beautiful.

Hi Mary! Good to see you.

Carry on guys! Love you all.

And remember to tune in tomorrow for Brian Davis' Star City Radio Show. He's going to have Michael Beckman, who is Bruce Davis' attorney, on. Should be very interesting!

Night ya'll!

G'night Jugdish! :)

katie8753 said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzoS8U-cmpE

Night y'all! :)

katie8753 said...

Have you ever noticed how Sharon walks on her toes? My son does that.

Oh well....night! :)

CarolMR said...

Has Davis ever shown any remorse for what he's done? It's hard to have any sympathy for him.

katie8753 said...

Carol I remember watching one of his parole hearings on You Tube (can't remember which hearing it was) and he came across as rude and arrogant. And he basically said the same kind of thing that Leslie has always maintained with her participation in Rosemary's killing, that he kind of poked him with the knife but by that time Shorty was already dead.

Now what his demeanor is in 2013 I don't know. I've read that he has admitted more about his participation, I'm assuming in hopes that they would finally let him out.

I've never seen any footage of him apologizing to the victims' families.

Does anyone know why his wife divorced him? Did she find another man like Tex's wife?

FrankM said...

jeffrey jeff said...
No one convicted of 1st degree murder should be eligible for parole.
This is your opinion, but the fact remains that they were sentenced with possibility of parole. The debate here has largely been around that fact, and the point of a sentence with that possibility when it is simply disregarded or flouted for political reasons.

IMO, Bruce was a bad guy.
In your opinion. Many will agree with you. He has been punished for what he did, and at great length. Few people in the world have suffered prison sentences so long.

We probably don't know half of what he has done.
Indeed. As the good Wittgenstein enjoins us, whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. We have security services and law courts better equipped than us to look into and after such matters, should there be need.

I don't care if he wasted taxpayers money getting college degrees in prison. I don't care if found Jesus and became a model prisoner. It doesn't matter if he is a current threat to society or not. He murdered one man and was an accomplice in murdering another. He has to pay and pay and pay until he takes his last breath.
The ‘has to’ is your opinion, is it not, rather than some externally imposed obligation? You sincerely believe that a prisoner convicted with possibility of parole should be denied it? And that you know so much more about the case than the parole board that on two consecutive connections recommended his parole? And you want him to ‘pay until […] his last breath’ because he ‘murdered one man and was an accomplice in murdering another’.
There must be plenty of people who are in prison because they have ‘murdered one man and [been] an accomplice in murdering another’. Should they all ‘pay and pay and pay until [they] take [their] last breath’? Or does this only apply to Bruce Davis?

FrankM

CarolMR said...

I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but in 1972 there was no life without parole. Only life with the possibility of parole. H/T to MsBurb of the 2nd Official TLB Blog. How can you receive the death penalty in the first place then expect to get parole? I hope they all stay in prison.

FrankM said...

I hope they all stay in prison.
Not completely sure who ‘they all’ refers to, but you’re absolutely entitled to your opinion.

I do find it interesting, however, that people can get so exercised about the fates of the people we discuss on these blogs while remaining largely indifferent to those of the other 2.2 million people in US prisons, some of whom will have done far more dreadful things than Bruce Davis, yet few of whom will remain incarcerated for anything like the same length of time.

If we are concerned with notions of fairness and justice, I think we have to have standards that match all citizens equally, and not just single out celebrity criminals for personal scrutiny and vitriol.

As always, just an opinion

Frank

bobby said...

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/year-states-adopted-life-without-parole-lwop-sentencing

1978 is the year LWOP went into effect in CA. That means there would be some inmates hitting the 35 year mark now with no parole possibility. I guess Bruce, Bobby & Leslie at least have more to hope for than those people. In my mind after some point I think people sentenced to LWOP wished they would have been given the DP.

At some point there is going to a hell of a lot of inmates 40 + years in prison with no hope.

I can see the cruel & unusual.

Marliese said...

Hi Carol, i also apologize if it's been mentioned already, no time to read back at the moment, just wanted to quickly agree...you're right, there was no life without the possibility of parole when the manson crew death sentences were commuted. I don't know when LWOP laws were enacted...probably a few to several years later with the idea that prison was for punishment, not just rehabilitation.
There are also determinate sentencing laws...for example...30 years to life and the 30 must be served before eligibility to apply for parole. And there are enhancements on top of the determinate sentences when certain facts have been found to be true...for example, another determinate number of years (many years) for weapons or gang enhancements (the act was committed to benefit a criminal street gang, for example) etc etc so the determinate can get very high...40 or 50 years before eligibility to apply for parole. And that's attempted murder! i'm in a huge hurry and have said this poorly...it's far more complicated, but you get the idea. :)

Marliese said...

Bobby, thanks for the 1978 date!

Marliese said...

katie8753 said...>>>>>>>>
You are all AWESOME! I'm gonna head to the bunkhouse.

But I just want to say first to Marelise, I'm so glad you're back. I hope you continue to come back because I value your comments. I remember when you and I and Venus and others were commenting on the Cielo Drive video when Michelle Morgan first owned that house and how lovely it was furnished when it was first built. Beautiful.<<<<<<<<

Ah...Katie...that's one of the nicest posts I've ever read...thank you! We've had some great conversations. I remember Venus' video of Michele Morgan's Cielo... the video was so well done, and satisfied years of wondering about the history of that house...fun conversation too. :)

katie8753 said...

Hi Marliese! Yes I love that video. I watch it from time to time.

Okay, I think I'm finally "Theta Clear". LOL. I don't know if I had forgotten this or what, but I went back and read Bugliosi's book regarding Davis and regarding the outcome of the trials for Shorty's murder, it says:

Manson, Davis & Grogan were tried separately for Shorty's murder. The juries in the Manson & Davis trials recommended life in prison, while Grogan's jury recommended the death penalty, which the presiding judge later changed it to life in prison because he was too dumb, etc.

So those jurors thought Grogan was more dangerous than Manson?

So years later, Grogan (whose jury recommended the death penalty) decides to tell them where Shorty is buried, gets his walking papers and splits?

HUH???? Did I miss a paragraph???

So if Davis had been the one to tell where Shorty was buried, he'd be the one sitting on the Riviera by now sipping Mai Tai's instead of Grogan?

Where is the fairness in that?

Lauren Webster said...

Katie off topic, but did you see the clip of Jodi Arias breaking down when the DA got to her and put her in her place?

katie8753 said...

Lauren I've been watching the Jodi Arias trial every day on internet stream. I'm just flummoxed by what this girl is capable of. Does she not think the jury can figure her out? When the DA first started in on her, she was smug, trite and full of herself. You could see in her face that she was confident with that "no jury will ever convict me" BS.

Last Thursday the DA finally honed in on the day she massacred Travis and showed beyond any doubt that that self defense crap is something she's been conjuring up for years.

He finally wiped that smirk off her face on Thursday. But I'll bet you anything when the defense re-directs on Monday she's gonna be back to her old smug ways.

The jury has got to be thinking "this girl is on trial for her life and she's smirking??"

I mean the fact that hours after she brutally killed Travis she called and left him a cheery voicemail message on his cell phone just creeps me OUT!

bobby said...

Marliese, That was some coinsidence in timing. LOL.

Off topic: Lynryd, I Heard an interview with a Watkins Glenn official and they are going to re pave the track in the future & won't be able to race for a while.

They are looking to fill that time by booking concert (s) Hey, maybe us north easterners You,Starship have a Watkins Glenn concert in our futures. LOL.

bobby said...

I mean the fact that hours after she brutally killed Travis she called and left him a cheery voicemail message on his cell phone

Katie, Did she do that to set up an aliby ?

katie8753 said...

Yes Bobby she set the whole thing up. She called some guy in Utah and said she was going to come there and see him, then she drove to Mesa, AZ to Travis' house, spent the day with him, then brutally murdered him that evening (we'll probably never know why), then she headed to Utah and told that guy she was late because she got lost, and on the way to Utah she called Travis' cell phone, knowing that he was lying dead in his shower, and left this bright and cheery message saying how she was sorry she didn't make it to Arizona but she could probably try to make it there to see him later in the month, invited him to go with her and some other girl to a concert or something, laughing and giggling, and this was hours after she killed him.

That's just one of the many alibis she concocted.

bobby said...

Thanks Katie, Wow.

After spending some time comparing LWoP vs. DP as I have benn doing. I think she must have decided to take her chances on lieing her way out with a jury.

I think I said it before that I am glad I'm not in the dating game.

jeffrey jeff said...

Hi FrankM,
Always a pleasure to read your comments. Thanks for responding to my post. I seem to be in the minority here, thinking that Bruce basking in prison for a few more years is a good thing. Just a couple of responses to your comments on my post...
This is your opinion, but the fact remains that they were sentenced with possibility of parole.
Yes ,everything I said in my post was just my opinion. They don't parole prisoners convicted of 1st degree murder in the state I live in. If BD's crimes had been committed in TX or FLA he would be long gone. The laid back State of California is a little light in the Justice Department. Those sentences should have never been commuted with the possibility...good on ya Gov Brown, for righting the scales. Many states have only two penalties for 1st degree murder: Death and Life w/o the possibility of parole. I am a little baffled that some 1st D murderers in CA serve less than 20 years and that some of you think that 20 years is an appropriate sentence for the first degree murder of another human being.

Indeed. As the good Wittgenstein enjoins us, whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. We have security services and law courts better equipped than us to look into and after such matters, should there be need.
Well I admit I had to look up Ludwig Wittgenstein, but all of TLB world has speculated about the prior bad acts of Bruce Davis. Everything from the absurd (Zodiac) to the more plausible (Pugh, Scientology students) I in no way intended to leave the impression that Davis should be legally judged by rumours and innuendo...My Bad.

You sincerely believe that a prisoner convicted with possibility of parole should be denied it? And that you know so much more about the case than the parole board that on two consecutive connections recommended his parole?
I do believe that a prisoner convicted with possibility of parole should be judged on a case by case basis which is exactly what happened. Just because he has the possibility for parole does not mean that parole is mandatory. The State of California put in procedures where the Governor has final say over the Parole Boards recommendation. Isn't it a little insincere to complain that the parole recommendation wasn't followed when the procedure worked exactly the way it was implemented? Two Governors have denied Davis...one Republican, one Democrat. As far as politics playing a role in the decision, there is certainly no political upside to releasing Davis. Jerry Brown is 74 years old. His political career is winding down. I doubt that his political future was a factor when he denied Davis. No, I do not think that I "know so much more about the case than the parole board"...They have access to all the good stuff...impressive college degrees... all the enlightenment that Pastor Davis has provided to his fellow prisoners. All I have is the knowledge that Bruce Davis carved up Shorty Shea like he was a Christmas turkey.

FrankM said...

Thanks for the response, Jeff. A civill reply to a not particularly civil set of questions. Your arguments here are [to me] sound.

In the US we have one of the most draconian sentencing systems in the world, and it seems [again to me] to be getting worse. It also seems to depend on where you are tried, as it varies so much from one jurisdiction to another.

But the problem is probably mine, and my apologies if I came on too strong.

FrankM

CarolMR said...

Marliese, you didn't explain it poorly, you explained it very well! Thank you.

leary7 said...

I go to church, teach political refugees, volunteer with the disabled, belong to a couple of sizzling book clubs etc etc...
AND YET...
The nicest, most interesting group of people I know are from a Manson blog.
Now that's a head scratcher.

FrankM said...

Scratch away, Leary, but consider this: there are Manson blogs and Manson blogs, and our Lynyrd has worked hard to create and maintain this space.

FrankM

Marliese said...

JeffreyJeff said>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I do believe that a prisoner convicted with possibility of parole should be judged on a case by case basis which is exactly what happened. Just because he has the possibility for parole does not mean that parole is mandatory. The State of California put in procedures where the Governor has final say over the Parole Boards recommendation. Isn't it a little insincere to complain that the parole recommendation wasn't followed when the procedure worked exactly the way it was implemented? Two Governors have denied Davis...one Republican, one Democrat. As far as politics playing a role in the decision, there is certainly no political upside to releasing Davis. Jerry Brown is 74 years old. His political career is winding down. I doubt that his political future was a factor when he denied Davis. No, I do not think that I "know so much more about the case than the parole board"...They have access to all the good stuff...impressive college degrees... all the enlightenment that Pastor Davis has provided to his fellow prisoners. All I have is the knowledge that Bruce Davis carved up Shorty Shea like he was a Christmas turkey.<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Wow...well done.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

JeffreyJeff said:
" All I have is the knowledge that Bruce Davis carved up Shorty Shea like he was a Christmas turkey".

You must have a crystal ball.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

JeffreyJeff said:
"No one convicted of 1st degree murder should be eligible for parole".

You're 41 years late.

-------------------------------

JeffreyJeff said:
"They don't parole prisoners convicted of 1st degree murder in the state I live in".

Irrelevant.

-------------------------------

JeffreyJeff said:
"If BD's crimes had been committed in TX or FLA he would be long gone".

Irrelevant.

-------------------------------

JeffreyJeff said:
"Many states have only two penalties for 1st degree murder: Death and Life w/o the possibility of parole"

Irrelevant.

---------------------------------

JeffreyJeff said:

"I don't care if he wasted taxpayers money getting college degrees in prison. I don't care if found Jesus and became a model prisoner. It doesn't matter if he is a current threat to society or not".

Interesting thought process.

Please don't apply for employment with the parole board.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

JeffreyJeff said:
"Those sentences should have never been commuted with the possibility"

Sigh...

And with that, we're back to square one.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

JeffreyJeff said:
"Those sentences should have never been commuted with the possibility...good on ya Gov Brown, for righting the scales".

Jeffrey...
Your statements have several negative implications.

This is your mindset:

You think that, because Bruce "should never have been granted the possibility of parole" (in the first place)... it's OK for us, to circumvent his sentence indefinitely... by simply denying him parole (again and again), regardless of his accomplishments and behavior.

You just said point-blank, that Davis' behavior and accomplishments have absolutely no merit, and should not be considered, at all.
(That's pretty f#cked-up rationale)

According to you... ignoring Davis' sentence, good behavior, and accomplishments (and continuing to veto him), is how we strategically "right the scales" (as, you termed it).

So, let me get this straight:
We should continue denying Davis parole indefinitely with a clear conscience... because after all... "he shouldn't have been granted the possibility of parole" in the first place.
We should not consider his good behavior and accomplishments.
And this, is how we effectively "right the scales".

Sorry dude...I can't buy into that philosophy.
Actually... that's how we f#ck-up the scales.

Davis was granted the opportunity for parole, regardless of what's done in your home state (or, any other state).

And yes... his behavior and accomplishments MUST be seriously considered, regardless of your personal opinion.
It's the law.

Sorry dude... but, you're wrong.

jeffrey jeff said...

Hello Lynyrd,
First of all, let me thank you for providing a place where we can express our opinions and civilly engage each other in debate.
Do you have serious reservations about Davis being involved in Shea's murder? ("You must have a crystal ball") Didn't Bruce recently admit to cutting Shea from armpit to collarbone? This was after years of semi-denial where he claimed that the wounds he inflicted were after death. Do you deny that Shea endured a heinous agonizing death? Manson, Bruce, Tex & Clem were involved. I don't have a crystal ball as to who did what, but they all, at some point, bragged about their involvement. My position is that they were all equally responsible. "The devil made me do it defense" doesn't resonate with Bruce Davis. He was 27 years old when he murdered Shea, not a gullible teenager.

The reason that I mention how other states penalize first degree murder ("irrelevant"), was just intended as a point of reference. California seems to be an anomaly in offering 1st degree murderers a chance of parole. I don't have the time or the inclination to research how each state penalizes 1D Murder, but I would wager that few offer parole. As Frank M said "In the US we have one of the most draconian sentencing systems in the world, and it seems [again to me] to be getting worse. It also seems to depend on where you are tried, as it varies so much from one jurisdiction to another." You are correct, what other states do has no bearing on Bruce's sentence. I did not intend to argue otherwise.

I really don't have a dog in this fight. My first post on this subject was classic reactionary redneck and embarrassing when I read it now. Frank M called me out on my BS and I tried to more intelligently state my views. I did not intend to become a victim's advocate for Shorty Shea. I really would not have been terribly upset if Davis had been released. You seem to emotionally involved in the subject and the take I get is that you're morally outraged at the injustice of Davis being denied by the Governor after being approved by the board. (And yes... his behavior and accomplishments MUST be seriously considered, regardless of your personal opinion.
It's the law.)
I guess that it is also "the law" in CA, that the Governor has the obligation to accept or reject the Board's recommendation. If we are only talking about "the law", then "the law" was followed to the letter. It can be argued whether Brown was acting politically or morally but the fact remains that he was granted the authority to approve or deny.

(Sorry dude...I can't buy into that philosophy. Sorry dude... but, you're wrong.)
Wouldn't be the first time, Lynyrd. I have been reading your blog (and others) for years. I only recently began posting...partly from boredom, I recently retired and have more time on my hands. Everything I said was just my opinion. My opinion is that 1D murderers should not be offered parole (Here, There & Everywhere). The murder of Shea was particularly heinous. You have a different opinion, I respect that. My apologies if my opinion has offended you. Like I said, I'm new at this....maybe I should just go back to reading and leave the comments to others.
Respectfully,
Jeff

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Jeffrey.

Jeff said:
"I don't have the time or the inclination to research how each state penalizes 1D Murder"

Please my friend... don't bother.

--------------------------------

Jeffrey...
I'm sorry, but I've completely lost interest in going back-and-forth with you, over this.

My best advice:

Listen VERY closely to Attorney Beckman's commentary .
(I should have his audio uploaded sometime tomorrow).
Beckman's information, will answer any/all of your questions and concerns.
Take my word for it... you won't regret listening to him.
If you're truly interested in researching this case... it will be time VERY well invested.

If AFTER listening to Beckman, you STILL want to play tennis over this... we'll continue.

jeffrey jeff said...

I also listened to Attorney Beckman on Brian's show last night. I will look forward to hearing it again. I've also read the October 2012 parole hearing where Mr Beckman makes many of the same points that he made last night. I've also read both Governors denial letters.

I also have no interest in discussing it further. It's OK to disagree. You seem to be REALLY passionate about this issue and I commend you for it. Once again, thanks for maintaining such a great site where people interested in the TLB phenom can learn and interact.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Jeff.

If you believe, that Davis should not be paroled... I'm cool with that.
You have a right to your opinion.
I'm sure lots of people would agree with you... including my faithful assistant "Katie".

For me... it's not about Bruce Davis.
Bruce Davis could be named "Inmate X25"... and, I'd feel the same exact way.

For me... this is about honoring our word, as a system.
It's about honoring the true intent of a man's sentence... even if (indeed) that sentence was screwed-up in 1972.

Yes Jeff... the governor can legally veto Bruce.
No argument there.
But unfortunately, that's one of the many flaws in our system.
These cases should be reviewed by an impartial board only... or, an anonymous judge.
Allowing these decisions to get "political" is one of our many bad decisions.

In my opinion, Bruce has served the "intent" of his sentence.

And yes Jeff... one might argue, that overturning the death penalty across the board in 1972... (and commuting it to "Life With") was a mistake.
And, I might agree...

But, that decision has already been made... and, I don't believe we're living by it, in the truest sense.

What the authorities SHOULD do... if (like you) they never intend to release Davis (no matter what)... is be "upfront" about it.
They should legally reverse Davis' sentence to "Life Without"... and send him a letter, stating such.

Of course... that cannot (and will not) be done.
Instead... they'll play the old "carrot on a stick" game.
They'll parade Davis in front of the parole board every year... simply because "they have to".
They'll grill this fucker (7 on 2) for 3 hours every year... simply because "they have to".

Doesn't that strike you, as the least bit hypocritical?

If the parole decision boils down to a "formality" after 4 decades of good behavior and advanced degrees... then, there's something wrong.

Here's the other issue Jeff:
If Davis was an unknown guy (Inmate X25)... you wouldn't even be here discussing him.
Heck... neither of us would be.
He'd be anonymous.

Don't you think, that "anonymity" would increase "Inmate 25's" chances of being released?

Governor Brown has Debra Tate, the DA, some of the victims family members... and several folks from the general public (such as yourself), breathing down his neck.
That has GOT to decrease Davis' chances.
How can it not?
Thing is Jeff... it's not supposed to.

These decisions are supposed to be impartial.
Bruce Davis is supposed to be considered with the same impartiality, as "Inmate X25".
Fact is... he's not.

Davis is DEFINITELY held to a higher standard and more closely scrutinized, due to the notoriety of his case.
How could anyone possibly not see that??

Continued...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

(Part 2 - LOL!)

I appreciate your passion Jeff, but I think like many others... you're allowing your advanced knowledge of this case (and passions) to cloud your ability to be impartial.

As I said to Katie, on another thread:

Bruce Davis is a criminal.
There's no two ways about it.

No murderer truly deserves release, from a purely empirical standpoint.

Empirical:
Relying on experience or observation alone, without due regard for system and theory.

If we assume one life, equals one life... (which is a very safe assumption)... then quite simply, Davis shouldn't be released for two lifetimes.
You're correct.

Thing is...
The concept of parole (for murderers), is based upon a certain degree of "mercy", or "pardon".

If we gave murderers what they truly deserve... they would all be murdered upon conviction.
(And yes, some societies have operated that way)

But, as Mahatma Gandhi once said:
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

If we have no interest in extending mercy... then we shouldn't hold parole hearings for murderers at all.
(And, that's an option too)

I simply feel, that if we're going to offer an inmate the possibilty of parole... we must observe that consideration in earnest.
To do otherwise, is to ignore our own laws.

Beyond that, there are several other variables which must be considered.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

By the way...

The Governor (and DA) meticulously "poured over" every parole hearing that Davis has had in the last four decades.
They combed through every word!
I'm sure they read every transcript and watched every video.

That's their prerogative.
But, does anyone REALLY believe, that inmates from low-profile crimes, undergo that same intense scrutiny?
I don't believe it.

By the way...
Governor Brown did not write that denial letter... the DA compiled it for him.
I had that suspicion from the start, and I've received pretty convincing confirmation.

Either Brown went to the DA's office and said:
"Look DA... I'm going to deny Davis. I need you to compile a list of reasons, to justify my decision".

OR:
The DA went to Governor Brown with his research, and compelled Brown to sign-off.

Either way... there's no doubt in my mind, that the DA wrote that letter of denial... and the DA and Governor were in "cahoots".

That probably doesn't happen in many low-profile cases.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Marliese said:
"I was just reading that Gov Brown reported his decision from the steps of the downtown LA courthouse today, after meeting with DA Jackie Lacey. I'd love to know details of their conversation. It's been reported that the DA's office sent a letter opposing release, so isn't it interesting that the Gov was in LA today and met with the DA?"

"i found it interesting the Governor met with someone in the LA DA's office just prior to releasing his decision. I'd love to know what was said".


Yes... very interesting.
I'd like to know, myself.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Sorry folks...

I got a "second wind"! AHahahaha

jeffrey jeff said...

Lynyrd,
Very well put. I was wondering what was driving all that passion. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out for me.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for participating on the blog.
I apologize, for getting unnecessarily forceful with you.

Your contributions are appreciated.

There are lots of good people here.
I'm sure we'll agree on many topics in the future.