Wednesday, August 10, 2011

I had an "Anniversary Thought" the other day.
When we remember "family victims"... should we include Bernard Crowe?
OK... I know he was dealing in drugs... I know he was holding a girl hostage... I know he called the ranch... asked for "Charles"... and made threats/demands... AND, I know, he survived the shooting. 
Crowe was no saint, and clearly placed himself in danger, by his own hand.  One might even say, Manson shot Crowe in self defense...

BUT... consider this:
Manson blew the man's guts apart from point-blank range.  And, didn't Crowe leave the bullet in his back forever... for fear that removing it, would be worse healthwise?  Wasn't the bullet lodged, dangerously close to his spine?  And, didn't Crowe also die fairly young?

I submit, that Manson's blasting his chest apart, and lodging a bullet in the man's back forever (I'm pretty sure that was the outcome)... likely took years off Crowe's life.  So... in a sense... at some level... wasn't Crowe a victim (of the whole mixed-up family), as well? 
Any takers? LOL  It just strikes me, that Crowe never gets an ounce of sympathy. 
Any love for Bernie??  Just stuff I think about...
===================================================================
Big Patty...

45 comments:

katie8753 said...

Here's what I think about Patricia Krenwinkle, a/ka Katie, a/k/a Marnie.

I think she was a nice girl. She was troubled in her family. Her parents were drunks (whose weren't, ha ha, just kidding).

She was extra hairy because of an endocrine condition. But because of that, boys didn't like her.

She took a job as an insurance clerk, moved in with her sister Charlene, who was a drug addict, and took care of Charlene's child because she loved children.

THEN...she met Manson.

He told her she was beautiful. He told her he loved her.

That was the bait on the hook that reeled her in.

She quit her job and ran after him.

And my opinion is...that she is the ONLY one who killed for him because she thought it was what he wanted. And it was. It damn sure was!

Unfortunately for Pat, Charlie didn't really care about her.....

She was put in prison when she was 24 years old.

She has spent all those years in prison and now she's 66 years old.

She has spent her whole life in prison.

And I think that she's the only one who truly feels remorse and not anger. She knows what she did was wrong. And she regrets every day of it.

She hasn't hooked up different men to get her out like Leslie.

She hasn't married different men to get out like Susan.

She just lives every day in her cell, and by her own words:

"I wake up every day, knowing this is what I deserve".

She is truly remorseful.

Pat, maybe someday you'll get out again before it's too late, chasing the birds and butterflies and walking free.

"Que sera, sera".

katie8753 said...

I think I'll listen to Melanie for a bit, then head to the bunkhouse. HA HA. Night.

Marliese said...

Thanks for making her real, Katie.

lurch said...

Pat's also been the least outspoken of them all. Very few interviews, no "tell-all" book. And her remorse seems genuine, not something to impress the parole board with.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Marliese & Lurch.

I truly, truly believe, that if Pat got out, not only would she NOT be a danger to society, that she would benefit society as long as she was physically and mentally able to do so.

She's been working with the dogs that help handicapped people and I think she would continue along those lines to help others.

She would more than likely volunteer her time to talk to young troubled girls who are thinking about joining a group of people and potentially throwing their lives away. She's living proof that it's not a good idea. And I think she would do that willingly and lovingly.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I agree.

Due to the "gravity" of Pat's crimes... or, as they say at all the parole hearings... "the totality of the record" (LOL)... Pat will never be released... nor, should she be.

BUT... I do like Pat.
Of all the one's incarcerated... she's definitely the most sincere, and credible.
She's not one to exaggerate, or sensationalize.
She's grounded, and has her head on straight.
She has her head on much "straighter"... than the others. LOL

I have an old VHS tape, made by the "History Channel".
I want to say, it's from the mid 90's.
It's called "Manson Women"... or something like that.
The best part of the footage, is watching Pat speak.

katie8753 said...

I've always thought that Pat was much more grounded than the others. She seemed so much more mature than the others.

Mary said...

nicely said, Katie

TomG said...

Patricia Krenwinkle is actually 63 years old. Other then that, katie8753 comments are on the money.

Other than being born in a turbulent time and getting involved with the wrong people, she never really was a danger to anyone. At least, I don't think.

She had a bad weekend. A very bad weekend.

But she has paid and paid and paid for her crime. Maybe in the California Institute for Women, she has had an impact for good on the life of others, which is a good thing.

katie8753 said...

Hi MARY!!!! Good to see you. Where you been girl???

I love your comments. They, like certain others, are like an oasis!!

Love ya!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Tom.

I agree.
I feel bad for Pat.
I think at some level, Pat had some "self-esteem" issues, which made her vulnerable.
Because of that, I think she bought into the experience "hook, line and sinker".

I always thought/said... I'd never want to see Pat released.
The idea seemed in-fathomable.
But honestly, as the years pass, I feel sympathy for the woman.
If she was released "some day"... I think, I could live with it.
She's a decent person now.
After all... aren't we supposed to be working towards rehabilitation?
And... what really is the point of making someone"eligible for parole"... if, in fact... they're never considered (in any serious sense)?
Isn't that actually being "in-eligible" for parole?
Life without the possibilty of parole, is a different sentence.
These are questions I ask myself in recent years... that, I didn't previously.
I think we view things differently, as we age.
The older I get... and the more I experience... the more "grey area" I see... in all things.

I've never given the "comparison" much serious contemplation... but, given the choice... I think I'd rather see Pat released (because of her character), before some of the others with lesser crimes... who are, by most accounts, much closer to parole.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

((((((((((MARY))))))))))

katie8753 said...

Hi Tom. Thanks for correcting me on her age. I couldn't remember her birthday.

>>Tom said: Other than being born in a turbulent time and getting involved with the wrong people, she never really was a danger to anyone. At least, I don't think.

She had a bad weekend. A very bad weekend.>>>

Tom I agree. A real bad weekend.

If she had never met Manson, she probably would have been married with 3 or 4 kids by now, maybe a grandma by now.

She was the most "normal" of all the killers, other than Tex.

And that's a whole 'nother story. HA HA.

>>>But she has paid and paid and paid for her crime. Maybe in the California Institute for Women, she has had an impact for good on the life of others, which is a good thing.>>>

Yes I think she has. She has answered countless letters from young girls, confused as to how to proceed on life, praising her actions, and she always writes back that she should hever have done what she did.

Maybe her lot in life is to just sit in stir until she's dead, but I think she's paid enough.

To me, Patricia is another victim. A victim of Charlie's crap. How anyone can defend that guy....I just don't know.

A nice young girl with a deadend job...here comes a guy that says she's beautiful and she should come with him.

Classic cult indoctrination.

I'm sure she wishes she'd never met Charles Manson.

I can't imagine remembering the screams of the victims, the sound of the knife, the smell of blood, the quietness of death.

That's what she has to remember ever day and night.

And BTW, I don't think that Leslie has the remorse she has. She's still blaming everything on someone else.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, I have always been a proponent of the killers to always be in prison until they die. But I have to say, Pat is the ONLY one I say it's time to release her.

I don't trust any of the others.

But I think that Pat has shown that she is truly remorseful.

If she was released, I wouldn't doubt that she might put flowers on Gibby's and the LaBianca's graves.

Who knows....???

She knows that she took away life.

And it doesn't matter if you're in prison or on the outside, the prison is in your brain if you can't forget.

And I don't think she ever will.

TomG said...

A common interest that I share with Ms katie is how ordinary people become famous criminals.

So I have been reading alot about cults and how it begins and how it escalates and I have to say that what I have learned makes me more sympathetic to weak people who get caught up in something more powerful than their intellect.

But that doesn't excuse their actions in any way.

Look at the Phelps family and the Westboro Baptist Church. That is nothing more than a rageaholic, old man controlling his whole family.

The human condition. All we can do is study it and offer our sincere opinions, hope we can help somebody a little off course, to get the F back on course.

katie8753 said...

Tom, I've been reading about cults for years, and I have yet to figure it out. It's mind-boggling.

And it seems to be the most "ordinary" people who become involved.

I just don't get it. Why would anyone want to be controlled?

And I hate to say....it seems like women are more susceptible to this brainwashing.

The cult leader is usually a man. And I guess he knows what each woman needs to hear.

It's pathetic.

I'm not a fan of Gloria Steinem, but I have to say that she did do a lot for women to stand up for what's right.

I won't go off on suffragation, but women have to understand that they can stand on their own two feet, they don't have to rely on a man, they can make it in this world because they have the strength to do so, if need be. To protect themselves and their families.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Tom.

There's probably a much finer line between "sanity" and "insanity", than we'd all like to believe.
Maybe admitting that, is too scary a notion...

TomG said...

The best advice that was given to me, is the best advice that I can give to others.

Look everyone in the eye. Be true to your OWN heart.

Question everything. Fear makes cowards of us all!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Good Advice Tom.

I've always found Winston Churchill, the master of wisdom, and good advice.

I've had a book of his quotes for years... and refer to it often.

Some of his more notable quotes:

“A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on“.

“Once in a while you will stumble upon the truth but most of us manage to pick ourselves up and hurry along as if nothing had happened“.

“If you are going to go through hell, keep going“
.
“You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life“.

“The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is“.

“To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often“.

“Solitary trees, if they grow at all, grow strong“.

“Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm“.

“Everyone has his day and some days last longer than others“.

“Courage is the first of human qualities because it is the quality that guarantees all the others“.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I had an "anniversary thought" the other day.

When we remember "family victims"... should we include Bernard Crowe?

OK... I know he was dealing in drugs... I know he was holding a girl hostage... I know he called the ranch... asked for "Charles"... and made threats/demands... AND, I know, he survived the shooting.

He was no saint, and clearly placed himself in danger, by his own hand.
One might even say, Manson shot Crowe in self defense....

BUT... consider this:

Manson blew the man's chest apart from point-blank range.
And, didn't Crowe leave the bullet in his back forever... for fear that removing it, would be worse healthwise?
And, didn't Crowe also die fairly young?

I submit, that Manson's blasting his chest apart, and lodging a bullet in the man's back forever (I'm pretty sure that was the outcome)... likely took years off Crowe's life.

So... in a sense... at some level... Crowe was a victim (of the whole mixed-up family), as well.

Any takers? LOL

It just strikes me, that Crowe never gets an ounce of sympathy...

8/9 baby said...

Nice quotes, L/S.
Gotta say, i agree Pat is the most grounded and human of them. Leslie always seemed to think it was all a mistake that she was seen as a killer deserving of life in prison. Susan just seemed to be running from what she did. Pat has always seemed to accept the mistake was hers - for whatever reason, she took human life, and in a horrible fashion. She was brought low, and she owns it.

I have always said, these people were sentenced to death; they got all the mercy they deserve when their sentences were commuted. They have had plenty of time to redeem themselves in prison. Some have. The reward is not freedom, but just that they can die knowing they managed to do a little good after doing such evil. I respect Pat, Susan, and Leslie for making the most of their time, trying to help other women. But I say, they should forget about release, and thank God every day they wound up living their lives somewhere where the worst of themselves couldn't run away with them.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

8/9 Baby!!!!!!!!!

I was starting to think, we lost "Super Sexy Lana Cane" forever!!!
LOLOL

Hope all is well...
Great to see you!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

...still love the avatar!!! : )

8/9 baby said...

Yeah, Crowe never gets mentioned as a victim, and yet he was actually shot by Charlie. I think there's no doubt that being shot in the chest by some crazy hippie mofo had a detrimental effect on his life and health. So why is he usually left out?

Some ideas that occur to me:
First, he wasn't killed, directly. Then, in his case, it really was a drug deal gone bad - trouble brought on by his own criminal acts. Plus, he was a black man, and the fact is, his life is regarded as less precious in the collective mindset. Also, as far as I know, he and his family never sought recognition for him as a victim.

Put it all together, and no one really remembers Bernard "Lotsapoppa" Crowe, not as a victim. Ironic, because I think his run in with Charlie was the catalyst that accelerated the Family's paranoia to violent levels. If it wasn't Crowe, it may have been someone or something else. But it w a s Crowe. He should be remembered for that, if nothing else.

lurch said...

Hey L/S!

I can see your point.....Crowe was no angel, but his life was definitly impacted by Manson. So why not include him in the list of victims?

And not to split hairs, but Crowe wasn't shot in the chest......he was shot in the gut. The bullet ended up near his spine, and was safer to leave it there than to remove it.

Peace out y'all, be good humans

8/9 baby said...

Hey L/S!
It's nice to be missed! :)
I've been "lurking", but haven't had time to post, it's a busy time 'round here. But have no fear, Lana Kane is on the case!

Lots of excellent posts lately, and now that I've recovered from my b-day celebration, you'll be hearing from me... :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I think Crowe kept the whole incident/crime... as "hush-hush" as possible... because, he was guilty of crimes himself... and likely figured... if their was too much "talk"... he'd end-up in jail... as well as shot. LOL
So... he "took his lumps" and kept his lips sealed.

Also... criminals are generally involved with other criminals.
Too much talk, may have exposed other "friends"... and, he may have feared being shot again (by someone else)! LOL

If he started blabbing... the guy could have ended-up shot TWICE, AND JAILED! LOL

What a tangled web we weave... as criminals.
When you're a criminal... you sometimes can't report crimes.

Example: It's like if a guy doesn't report his car stolen... 'cuz he has $1,000 worth of heroin, under the seat.

I KNOW... Crowe's shooting was known to police... public... and made newscasts and interviews.

I'm just saying... I think Crowe said (and did),... as little as he possibly could (intentionally)... for personal reasons... and that's ALSO why... he may not have received as much notoriety/sympathy... as one might expect (otherwise).
I don't think he wanted notoriety.

Just a thought...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

8/9 Baby said:
>>>>"Ironic, because I think his run in with Charlie was the catalyst that accelerated the Family's paranoia to violent levels. If it wasn't Crowe, it may have been someone or something else. But it w a s Crowe. He should be remembered for that, if nothing else".<<<<

Great Point(s) Baby!!
I agree... Manson's run-in with Crowe was a catalyst (maybe not THE catalyst)... but, a major catalyst nonetheless... which accelerated things, in the wrong direction...

The beginning of the end? LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

((((((((((LURCH))))))))))

Lurch said:
>>>>"And not to split hairs, but Crowe wasn't shot in the chest......he was shot in the gut.".<<<<

Well... considering that Crowe looked about 6 foot 4... and Manson was about 5 foot 4... I'd say a "gut shot", DOES sound more accurate!! hahaha

Great to see ya Bro!!

8/9 baby said...

True, it was not the only catalyst. I think Charlie's trip to Esalen, with the Schramm girl right before the murders, was another. When he was not received at this "enlightenment center" as a wise man with songs of truth to awaken the world, and instead treated like a crazy man (or as they liked to say, "too heavy" and "intense"), it was another spark. A sign that harsher tactics were necessary, or that the world was against him? Maybe.

Marliese said...

8/9 baby said...>>>>
Gotta say, i agree Pat is the most grounded and human of them. Leslie always seemed to think it was all a mistake that she was seen as a killer deserving of life in prison. <<<<<


I get that from Leslie also.

After her second trial ended with a hung jury and she was tried a third time, i think she may have hoped she was done, that she'd be convicted of second degree and sentenced to time served.

Her father told larry king she should never have been convicted of first degree murder...

I'd like to hope Pat Krenwinkel will see a bit of freedom one day...she'll be almost seventy when she's eligible to apply again, after nearly 50 years and a perfect prison record...

Marliese said...

8/9 baby said...>>>>
True, it was not the only catalyst. I think Charlie's trip to Esalen, with the Schramm girl right before the murders, was another. <<<<<


Yes, maybe so.

I do think it's possible the Crowe shooting may have been a catalyst for Gary's murder...paranoid Charlie wanted money he thought Gary had to get to the desert away from the risk of retaliation for Crowe, so he left anyway...rejected at Esalen, bobby's in jail, Mary and Sandy arrested....

maybe so...

beauders said...

i was wondering if anyone at esalen that weekend came forward and said manson was rejected? i know i haven't seen it. could it be manson just used that as an excuse and it never happened.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd I think that one of the reasons Crowe never reported that Charlie shot him was because he was afraid of Charlie, like so many others who have said they were afraid of him too.

>>>8/9 Baby said: When he was not received at this "enlightenment center" as a wise man with songs of truth to awaken the world, and instead treated like a crazy man (or as they liked to say, "too heavy" and "intense"), it was another spark.>>>

I agree 8/9 Baby. I think that many events, starting with Crowe's shooting, probably escalated Charlie into a murderous frenzy on August 8/9. Charlie didn't like rejection....we all know that!

katie8753 said...

Marliese, I agree that Susan and Leslie didn't really grasp the notion of "I did wrong", and possibly never will.

Leslie always maintained that she was ordered by Tex to "do something".

"I only stabbed a dead lady 16 times." HELLO!! Isn't that enough? Leslie has never really taken responsibility for her actions, to this day. She's still trying to use her wiles on man after man to get her out. Pathetic.

And I feel sorry for Susan the way she had to grow up fast when she was young, but that's not an excuse for murder. The problem with Susan was, that she lied so much, who can believe anything she says? All that born again stuff...just a way to get out of there.

Tex Watson is just a sorry excuse for a human being. He's a liar too. He needs to just stay put until he breathes his last.

katie8753 said...

>>>Beauders said: i was wondering if anyone at esalen that weekend came forward and said manson was rejected? i know i haven't seen it. could it be manson just used that as an excuse and it never happened.>>>

That's very possible Beauders. The only one who has ever mentioned that was Manson, and I don't think he even went into an explanation of it. And we all know he's a liar too.

Marliese said...

beauders said...<<<<
i was wondering if anyone at esalen that weekend came forward and said manson was rejected? i know i haven't seen it. could it be manson just used that as an excuse and it never happened.<<<<<



Great point. It may have been Charlie helping himself to the beach in the vicinity of Esalen, twinkie truck on the side of the road.

katie8753 said...

>>>Marliese said: Great point. It may have been Charlie helping himself to the beach in the vicinity of Esalen, twinkie truck on the side of the road.>>>

HA HA HA. That's right.

Somehow, the thought picture of Charlie being in a twinkie truck just makes me bust a seam laughing.

I could just see him in an ice cream truck, playing "Mary Had a Little Lamb" on the loudspeaker.

HEE HEE!!!

whiskybeauty said...

It's hard to tell if someone is genuinely remorseful. In the past, I've thought so-and-so is, so-and-so isn't, etc. etc. I'm more unsure now, simply because people communicate in a variety of ways and some may be better at concealing their true feelings than others. I am not suggesting that Pat is not sorry, she may well be. But by the same token, so may Leslie. You can still be sorry for what you did whilst feeling anger at how your life turned out, hence perhaps the comments she makes blaming Charlie. We blame him too, don't we?Is it surprising she does? Again, Leslie may be sorry or she may not. I don't know. However, I do feel both are always going to be kept in jail, no matter how much good they may be doing now or how sorry they may be. Theoretically they are meant to have a chance at parole but I think we all know that no parole board wants to face the sh*t they'd get if they did parole them, so it doesn't matter how hard either woman tries. And in that respect, I think it is unfair on them. Don't have all these hearings if deep down they're not going to be released.Not to mention the fact that the victims' families have to sit through the details over and over again and be subjected to it all again.

andy said...

i must say im in full agreement on the issue of Pat. As I wrote in my almost never used and even less read blog the first post I made, I do believe Pat is the most remorseful. Maybe the only one who truly feels remorse. not just cause she got caught, but genuine remorse for what she did. Unfortunately you cant take that back though. It's a shame cause as horrible as the crime she totally commited is, in a lot of ways she's definitely a victim herself. Her obvious low self esteem made her an easy target for CM. I don't know how many or if any of the stories about her being hairy are true, but in plenty of pictures she looks fine. I dont think she was an ugly girl. It's just a shame. she wasted lives and also her own. I've read the stories of when she got picked up in Alabama, she saw the detectives sitting in a car by her house and had a big hat on which she pulled low over her face. Imagine the feeling in her gut when she knew that her time had come.
I forget offhand, was there any mention of why she'd left CA and went back home? She was definitely a diehard family member, i cant remember reading why or when she took off. Anyone?

katie8753 said...

Hi Whiskey Beauty! Hi Andy!

Pat was definitely hairy, and I guess it was a big joke among the family members. They seemed to make sport of her quite a bit for it. The sad thing is that her parents could have taken her to a doctor and gotten treatment for it probably with hormones. I'm assuming that was available back then. Something like that can really ruin self esteem while in high school.

I think that after Patricia was arrested in October at Barker's, she was released into her father's custody. She stayed with him for a while, then moved to Alabama to be near her mother. Although I believe she was living with her aunt when she was arrested there.

I'm sure she was running scared, because I'm sure that THEN she probably remembered every detail of what she did, although in later years, it seems that it got fuzzy.

katie8753 said...

Whiskey Beauty, I really have my doubts about Leslie. I have always been of the opinion that she was just born a "bad seed". She mouths the words "I'm sorry" but her eyes don't say it.

But even more, she's still trying to control men to get her way. She's gone from man to man to champion her and get her out, and I'm pretty sure that if that had ever happened, she would have dropped that guy like a hot potato.

whiskybeauty said...

Hi Katie! :) Even the fact that she does latch onto guys doesn't necessarily mean she is not sorry. Let's face it, no-one wants to sit in prison for the rest of their life.Not saying she is or isn't, I don't know. I guess only she will truly know how she feels. Such a sad waste though. A lot of those girls were smart, pretty and had a lot of potential to make a positive success of their lives...

Nemessis said...

long live FREE KATIE

Janson2112 said...

Wasnt it Patricia the one who put the fork in Leno's stomache just to watch it wobble back and forth and gleefully talked about how fun it was? or do i have her mixed up with one of the other skanks, if it was her, she is right were she needs to stay!