Monday, May 2, 2011

Kathleen Maddox - Part 3 - Edmonton Journal, Jan. 26, 1971
That monday, her son (Charles) had been convicted, and Kathleen agrees to an interview.
I found this reading, very sad actually.  She describes herself as "awfully upset".
She states, "Charlie's mentally ill.  He needs treatment... has for years.  I don't know what to do now".

75 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

It appears, Manson's relationship (with his mother), may not have been quite as strained, as here-to-fore believed.
At any rate, I feel bad for the woman.
I believe she also had some mental health issues, which went un-addressed, or worse yet, self-medicated.
A sad situation, all the way around.

BTW... this interview, sounds strikingly similar to what Katie and LadyRam were describing.
Could there be a video version of this interview???

I want that video! LOLOL
AHahahaha

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, I did see a video of her being interviewed, about 5 years ago on You Tube. I think it was one of Bret's videos. Anyway, I can't find it anywhere now. She was saying the same thing, that he wasn't neglected and pretty much made all that up for sympathy in later years.

She makes the comment "if the jurors could only talk to Charlie for 15 minutes they would see that's he's mentally ill".

I would think his mental illness would be very apparent during all that drama in the courtroom for months, laughing, threatening, orchestrating witness testimony, "x"s in the forehead, etc. Or maybe that was construed as he was just "completely evil". I don't think anyone entered an innocent plea based on insanity.

After all this time, I really don't think intense psychotherapy would have had any effect on Charlie. I think he is what he wants to be, and that's all he'll ever be.

If in fact his upbringing was that "Leave it to Beaver" so to speak, then he has been hanging onto this excuse/lie his whole life. And that's never going to change.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I don't think it was "Leave it to Beaver" by any stretch.
I just think it's been somewhat exxagerated, like everything else, surrounding this case.

katie8753 said...

Question. I really think that Charlie is a Sociopath.

My question is...are people born to be sociopaths, or is it connected with their upbringing?

Do they have an extra chromosone or decient in some genetic capacity that forms this condition?

If it's a genetic disposition, then no amount of therapy will ever change that, I'm assuming.

It sounds like Charlie has always had a penchant for this type of behavior. Or is it just an anger that never got quenched?

Or does he just like being "that evil dude?" HA HA.

Mary said...

great article, Lynyrd. Sigh...I am staying over here where I am somewhat appreciated...good Lord, it is tough on other blogs...especially when the moderator is biased against members of this blog!

katie8753 said...

Mary you are VERY MUCH appreciated over here.

It's not the moderator who is biased - it's the others.

That blog is Manson-oriented and you're never going to get anywhere over there. It doesn't matter who you are.

Don't be offended, it's not you. You know you're always welcome here to say whatever you feel!!

Come comment over here and you won't have to "walk on glass". HA HA.

Now what are your thoughts on this article?

Mary said...

I think this article is great...but who do you believe - a crazy man or his crazy mother...how many mothers defend themselves when criticized? There is always two sides to the every story...and the truth lies somewhere between

I was just venting...I like Liz...I like her blog...just cannot and won't read her comments anymore...Patty seems to have something against anyone who comments here. No offense to anyone...just need to vent.

katie8753 said...

Mary, you're among friends here. Don't worry about venting. I know from experience that it's frustrating.

Liz is cool. Her threads are interesting at times, but most of the comments are pretty lame, except for Circumstance. He can lay it on the line and not offend for some reason.

And there are a few posters who are pretty cool.

But bottom line, if you want to speak your mind, do it here. You won't get deleted. HA HA.

p.s., I agree with you and Circumstance totally. Bin Laden's death cannot be compared to the TLB murders. I can't believe that anyone would think that these victims deserved what they got, anymore than someone would believe that the 1000's of people killed on 9/11 "got what they deserved".

I agree there are 2 sides to every story, but I really don't think Charlie's bringing up was as black as he likes to paint. His story changes according to his moods.

I, for one, am sick of the defense "my parents got divorced" (Horseteeth) or "my mother didn't love me" (Charlie).

When you're an adult, you need to take resonsibility.

Mary said...

I know Katie - problem is that there is no accountability...now all anyone has to do is shed crocodile tears and say that they were abused or molested, etc. Then it is always someone else's fault - people forget there are always choices in life...regardless of your backgroud 99.999999% of people know right from wrong...if you commit wrong...then you are too blame. Period the end.

katie8753 said...

Mary I agree 100%. This defense of "I was abused" or "I was ignored" started I think back in the late 60's, early 70's. Suddenly everyone who committed a crime had a defense because of how they were raised.

"I wasn't picked out for the soccer team", "I wasn't popular at school", "I had to wear hand-me-downs and everyone laughed", "I got picked on at school", ad nauseum.

Suddenly that was a defense for everything.

>>>Mary said: people forget there are always choices in life...regardless of your backgroud 99.999999% of people know right from wrong...if you commit wrong...then you are too blame. Period the end.>>>

Damn right!! I've been saying this since I started blogging.

There is no defense for these animals.

The victims didn't "deserve" what they got.

The perps always have an excuse for "why they did it".

No excuse. "If you do the crime, then do the time".

And they ALL had choices. Including Charles Manson. He had a choice, but he chose to continue to be a criminal.

They will never get out. Period. I don't care what nubile starlet falls for this glut or what star-struck attorney thinks he's gonna make it big somehow. None of them will ever get out.

Case closed.

May 2, 2011 6:23 PM

Mary said...

AMEN, KATIE! I couldn't say it better myself...I hope there sentence here is a slight fraction of the sentence they will pay elsewhere...same goes for Usama! hell is too good for people like this

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mary said>>>>
"I think this article is great...but who do you believe - a crazy man or his crazy mother...how many mothers defend themselves when criticized? There is always two sides to the every story...and the truth lies somewhere between".<<<<

Absolutely right Mary.
"The truth lies somewhere in-between", was gonna be my exact response, as I was reading your post.
Then, you went and said it yourself, in your closing sentence.
DOH!

Somewhere between, the two stories lies the truth.
And yes, the situation is further complicated, by the fact, that both individuals have "issues".
Surely in Manson's case... likely, in Mom's case.

I believe, the same can be said for Manson (in-general) himself.
I don't believe he's the worst criminal that ever lived, as his boundless mystique implies.
I also don't believe he's a complete victim either, as his supporters, would have us believe.

The truth is rarely found in extreme views, and such is the case here, on both counts.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mary... you're much more than "somewhat appreciated" here.
There are many nights, where you "make my night"! LOL

C'mon Ladies...
Tell us how you REALLY feel! hahaha

MrPoirot said...

Even that article has clues. Notice the mother refuses to give her name. She wants to distance herself from Charlie. Also she admits she took charlie and moved away from his real dad at age 4. She is self centered just like Charlie.

St. Circumstance said...

Sociopathy has a strong genetic connection, and when Dr. Leedom realized that her husband was a sociopath, she also realized that her baby son could have inherited a predisposition to the character disorder. She was determined to prevent her son from turning into a full-blown sociopath.

Dr. Leedom studied the scientific literature on developmental psychology and wrote a book on her findings. called Just Like His Father? — A Guide to Overcoming Your Child's Genetic Connection to Antisocial Behavior, Addiction & ADHD.

Dr. Leedom analyzed the criteria for antisocial personality disorder stated in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV). She came to the conclusion that sociopaths have faulty development in three areas: ability to love, impulse control and moral reasoning.

St. Circumstance said...

Blah blah blah :)

katie8753 said...

Hi Circumstance. Who is Dr. Leedom???

St. Circumstance said...

Hi! I'm Dr. Leedom, author of Just Like His Father? a book about parenting kids who have genetic risk for ADHD, addiction and anti-social behavior AND The Child Well-Being Workbook, a complete parenting course. Thank you for visiting this web site. Please also check out Parenting the At Risk Child. com.

I went to the University of Southern California (USC), where I obtained a B.S. in Psychobiology and an M.D. degree four years later. I completed advanced training in psychiatry at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center and Yale-New Haven Hospital. I have been involved in scientific research at all three of these institutions. When in practice, I devoted my life toward helping people overcome severe depression. To view a list of my scientific publications click on this text.

katie8753 said...

>>>MrPoirot said:

Even that article has clues. Notice the mother refuses to give her name. She wants to distance herself from Charlie. Also she admits she took charlie and moved away from his real dad at age 4. She is self centered just like Charlie.>>>

I agree that she must have had a few screws loose. I didn't understand why she made the comment that Charlie was getting so conceited about his music that she stopped the lessons??? That doesn't make sense.

I can understand her wanting to avoid notoriety, especially having a young daughter, but I agree that her actions were not in the best interest of her son. However, I don't really know the whole story about Charlie or his mother.

St. Circumstance said...

Some lady who wrote a book I read

:)

katie8753 said...

Circumstance, cutting through all the psycho-babble, is sociopathy genetic or learned?? HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Circumstance, you sure read a lot of books!!! Are you like John Travolta in Phenomenon?? HA HA.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Please also check out Parenting the At Risk Child. com".

LOLOL

bobby said...

St. Circumstance said.
It is good that this deviant is gone- but the better accomplishment would be to gain some understanding into why so many millions hate us around the world. If we dont learn ways to ease the tension out there- another Osama is just a matter of time...
To me it seems the free people of the world do not hate us. I believe the countries that control the people through government run media etc. train their subjects to hate us. recently "freed" people like in Iraq will long be distrusting of us.jmo.

bobby said...

St. Circumstance said.
It is good that this deviant is gone- but the better accomplishment would be to gain some understanding into why so many millions hate us around the world. If we dont learn ways to ease the tension out there- another Osama is just a matter of time...

Bobby said,
To me it seems the free people of the world do not hate us. I believe the countries that control the people through government run media etc. train their subjects to hate us. recently "freed" people like in Iraq will long be distrusting of us.jmo.

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: Please also check out Parenting the At Risk Child. com".

LOLOL>>>

ROFLMAO!!!

Bobby/Circumstance: You're right about people not trusting us but that's not gonna change anytime soon. Too much pappa-gander goin' on.

MrPoirot said...

Charlie traveled thousands of miles hunting his mother after his release in 67. I can find no record of him ever finding her. I think this contributed to his sociopathy and anger. Being dumped by his mother was a major influence on his psyche. His mother never discusses this abandonment in her interview where she says he was well taken care of.

katie8753 said...

MrPoiroi: Ed Sanders says in December of 1963 Manson's mother offered to put up her house as security for Manson's release from prison and that failed.

It doesn't sound like she was hiding from him. I'm not sure why they didn't hook up. Maybe she ended up losing that house and had to move, I don't know.

He seems to be mad about a lot of things.

MrPoirot said...

Katie I know his mom showed up after he was nabbed but Charlie hunted her three years and she didn't show her face till he was in prison.He never saw her as a free man since the 1950s. She made no effort to be found after his release in 67.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P said:

Katie I know his mom showed up after he was nabbed but Charlie hunted her three years and she didn't show her face till he was in prison.He never saw her as a free man since the 1950s. She made no effort to be found after his release in 67.>>>

Mr. P., I'm not rallying to Charlie's mother's defense. I'm just trying to sort thru the facts.

Charlie's mother kept his wife Rosalie and his son Charlie Jr. in her home until she took up with a truck driver and split. Charlie's mother is the one who delivered the bad news.

I know she wasn't a "Donna Reed or Harriet Nelson" and I think she was probably a troubled individual herself, probably suffering from some type of mental impairment as well. I really don't know that much about her.

Why did Charlie spend so much time trying to find her after his release in 1967? If you really think a parent doesn't care about you at all, would you spend any time trying to find her/him? I wouldn't.

Did he need money from her? That's my thought.

And did Charlie spend a single second trying to find his only son at that time? I haven't read where he wasted a single second on that venture. I would think that at that point in his life, his young son would be the focal point of his life.

But it wasn't.

He gathered a group of young girls, and yada, yada, yada.

So it goes back to the sociopath persona. I've said many times, Charlie only cares about HIMSELF. And that's what I think about Charlie.

In studying sociopaths, I've discovered that it doesn't matter if they have a great life growing up, or a sucky life growing up, the outcome is still the same.

Sociopathic behavior.

Now, after all that, if you can convince me otherwise, I'm all ears. HA HA.

Lynn said...
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Lynn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MrPoirot said...

Katie said:

[quote]Charlie's mother kept his wife Rosalie and his son Charlie Jr. in her home until she took up with a truck driver and split. Charlie's mother is the one who delivered the bad news.[end quote]

Mr Poirot replies:

This was in the late 1950s you are talking about.

Charlie searched for her as far north as Washington. I'm not sure he dearched as far as W Vir or Kentucky. He didn't hunt his mother for money. He hunted her because he loved her.

The worst thing anyone ever did to Charlie was when his mother dumped him at a reformatory. that one event was the main factor behind TLB. Being dumped made Charlie bitter beyond anything you could dream of. Then he escaped and returned to her and she dumped him again at a reformatory. Then she has the gall to show up at his trial for murder and claim she took very good care of him.

Lynn said...
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Lynn said...
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katie8753 said...

>>Mr. P. says: This was in the late 1950s you are talking about.>>>

Yes...I know!...

>>>Charlie searched for her as far north as Washington. I'm not sure he dearched as far as W Vir or Kentucky. He didn't hunt his mother for money. He hunted her because he loved her.>>>

How do you know that that he loved her?? Did he tell you that?

>>>The worst thing anyone ever did to Charlie was when his mother dumped him at a reformatory. that one event was the main factor behind TLB.>>>

Mr. P., please. Don't insult our intelligence.....PLEASE!!!

>>Being dumped made Charlie bitter beyond anything you could dream of. Then he escaped and returned to her and she dumped him again at a reformatory.>>>

Huh?????

>>Then she has the gall to show up at his trial for murder and claim she took very good care of him.>>

Okay I missed something here.

Like....the whole fucking story!!!

Get outta here.

So Charlie is abused his whole life, his mother is a whore, and abandons him over and over and over again, and when he finally gets out in 1967, he searches high and wide for her like Chris Columbus, not for any reason other than he LOVES HER.

Did you answer why he didn't try to find his child???? NO!!

Okay...now I'm gonna sell you a bridge that hangs over the San Francisco Bay. HA HA.

Come on people, get real. No one really believes this crap!! Please tell me that!!

katie8753 said...

Lynn, I'm sorry about your trauma in life, and also about your cat.

Really I am.

I had a friend come over today and we were discussing life, and we realized that everyone has stuff in their lives to "get over".

Not diminishing anything in your life, of course. I'm sorry for your losses.

All I'm saying is what I've said before.

Charlie Manson is a sociopath.

I don't think people understand what that means. A sociopath has no emotion whatsoever, no feeling for any other people, either family or otherwise, no empathy or sympathy for anything regarding other folks, a need to control and be in charge, a constant anger to control. No feeling whatsoever if someone loses their life. Like a bug being stepped on. No remorse at all. No evident love for another human being. A constant love for oneself and always a defiant defense of oneself. The sociopath is never wrong, but always wronged. That's why others need to die so he will be absolved/avenged.

That means he didn't miss his mother or his father.

He doesn't care about anyone but himself. So don't feel sorry for him. He doesn't care about any of the victims who were killed. He just doesn't care. And he never will.

And BTW, that was pretty tacky "The most likely to be in the wrong place". Yeah...that was real nice....

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I gotta be honest with you Katie...
Mr. Poirot, is dead-on correct, with most of his statements .
Furthermore... you need to chill the hell out, and curb the swearing.
Poirot presented his opinion courteously.


Mr. Poirot said>>>>
"Charlie traveled thousands of miles hunting his mother after his release in 67. I can find no record of him ever finding her. I think this contributed to his sociopathy and anger. Being dumped by his mother was a major influence on his psyche. His mother never discusses this abandonment in her interview where she says he was well taken care of".<<<<<

That's correct.
Charlie did go to lengths, searching for her, and to my knowledge, no one has ever produced evidence, that he found her.
I do believe this had a large impact, on making him bitter.
He gets out of jail for the last time, and she's completely gone.
Also... I really don't believe money was an issue at all... as Katie suggested.
Manson had PLENTY of sources, from which to mooch money.
He certainly didn't need to spend tons of money on gasoline, searching for his alcoholic mother for money.
There's only ONE logical reason, why a man searches high-and-low for his mother, after getting out of prison.


Mr. Poirot said>>>>
"Katie I know his mom showed up after he was nabbed but Charlie hunted her three years and she didn't show her face till he was in prison.He never saw her as a free man since the 1950s. She made no effort to be found after his release in 67".<<<<<

That's absolutely correct, unless someone can prove otherwise.
I was hoping my video footage, would bring proof-positive forward, that she at least showed-up at the trial... but, that's still in-conclusive.


Mr. Poirot said>>>>
Charlie searched for her as far north as Washington. I'm not sure he dearched as far as W Vir or Kentucky. He didn't hunt his mother for money. He hunted her because he loved her.<<<<<

He wasn't looking for her for money.

Mr. Poirot said>>>>
"The worst thing anyone ever did to Charlie was when his mother dumped him at a reformatory. that one event was the main factor behind TLB. Being dumped made Charlie bitter beyond anything you could dream of. Then he escaped and returned to her and she dumped him again at a reformatory. Then she has the gall to show up at his trial for murder and claim she took very good care of him".

I do believe being dumped was likely one of the worst things he endured.
I'll agree with you there.
But, to say, that one event, was the main factor behind TLB... is a tough one.
Maybe so... maybe not.
It's hard to say with absolute certainty.
I can't climb on-board with you totally on that one Poirot.

I think there were several factors... that likely being a major factor.
It was a major contributing factor... that's about as far as I would say, with absolute certainty.
But... I do respect your opinion, Poirot.
I do believe he was bitter... and I do believe that was a major contributing factor to his bitterness.
I'm almost there with you... but not quite.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie...
Chill the f#ck out.

I believe Manson was searching for his mother, because he loved her as well.
So there... someone, answered your dare. LOL
Now, take 4 deep breaths... 2 of these little yellow pills, and call me in the morning. LOL

katie8753 said...

No one answered that question.

katie8753 said...

Why DIDN'T St. Charles look for his son, like I asked? If he's so godly?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie...
I have no idea why Manson didn't look for his son, quite frankly.
Maybe he didn't know where his son was.
Maybe he didn't want to pay child support.
I have no idea.

I don't see why that matters a whole lot.

He DID search for his mother, quite obsessively, from what I gather.
That we know... and that's what we're discussing.

Maybe someone can answer the question, as to why Manson did not search for his son... but, I don't have the answer in my back pocket tonight.

Evidently, he loved his mother, and but not the son whom he likely never met.
That would be a complete guess.
Like I said... I have no idea.

We were discussing Kathleen.
I don't see the connection.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Jeepers...
I don't think a man loving his mother, elevates him to anything near Godly.

Who said he was Godly?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

For a man to love his mother, and want to see her after his release... is not a bizarre concept at all.

For a man to be disappointed, and bitter, after searching high-and-low, with no success... is not a bizarre concept either.

I don't see what the hang-up is here.

What gives?

katie8753 said...

When you have a child, if you're "normal" takes the place of any other human in your life.

That child precedes any other relationship in your life. Including your spouse.

A normal person loves his child more than his own life.

Anyone with children can tell you that.

And for anyone emerging from prison who can't find a "parent who doesn't care", the first piece of business is to find that child.

That's what I would have done.

If I had a parent that didn't seem to care, I wouldn't have pursued them one iota.

I don't think any sane or sensible person would. Why would they? Unless the wanted something.

I don't know how you can sit there and say Charlie loved her.

What proof is there of that before this date? NONE.

He lived off her. He drove her car. So what. Doesn't prove he loved her.

You don't automatically love your parents.

But you do automatically love your kids.

I can't explain it, but it's so.

So if Charlie didn't go looking for his child, then he doesn't have any love in his heart and if anyone doesn't understand that, then either they've never had kids, or there's something wrong!!! And that's Charlie.

Why are you defending him????

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Lynn.

I'm so sorry to hear about your cat's illness.
My sincere sympathies.

Thank you for sharing your adoption story with us.
That was very nice of you.


Lynn said>>>>
"Sometimes we twist the view to be what we want them to be or sometimes we want someone who really isn't there....abandonment is a tough thing".<<<<

Well said Lynn.
I think we've all wanted someone who really isn't there, at least once in our lives.


Lynn said>>>>
"I am sure she was trying to save face... sometimes people are embarrassed at who they are and what they have done. Coming from a biological mother who was an alcoholic, she tried very hard to make everyone believe that she was something other than what she was".

Well said again, Lynn.
It's obvious Kathleen Maddox was an alcoholic, and sugar-coated the story (during the interview) pretty heavily.
And yes... I'm sure she'd be embarrassed to tell the absolute truth.
Unfortunately... I think alcoholics (sometimes) don't even remember the absolute truth, after a while.


Lynn said>>>>
"Unfortunately children carry those scars..especially abandonment and more than likely, do not get over it".

That was Mr. Poirot's point... and I couldn't agree more.
Some scars are so deep, they never completely heal... if at all.

katie8753 said...

Lynn, why do you think that Charlie didn't look for his son? Because of his mother?

katie8753 said...

Lynn, do you think a father should love his son unconditionally?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Honestly Katie...
I don't see what the hang-up is here.

I never said Charlie was Godly, or even normal.

If it was ME... I'd go looking for my child, AND my mother.
I'd look for both!
But, then again... I wouldn't go to jail in the first place.

You're trying to put Manson's life, mindset, and relationships in a typical frame.
It's not gonna work.
His life, mindset, and relationships are NOT typical.

Katie... If you don't believe Manson loved his mother... I have NO problem with that.
If you don't think Manson loved anyone at all... I have no problem with that either.
I just don't need you expressing your opinions like you did earlier.

I can't stay on here all night.
We're going to have to continue this tomorrow.

I feel bad already... because out of courtesy... I should have responded to Lynn's posts first.
Her comments were important, heart-felt, and personal.
Instead I got de-railed, by this drama... and had to address her afterwards.
I'm not too happy about that.

Bottom line Katie:
Poirot has a right to his opinion.
Please don't get nasty, for no reason.
He didn't even address you directly, until you addressed him.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie... I'm going to bed.
Shut the lights out, when you're done. LOL

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, Mr. P, you and I have a difference of opinion. That's for sure.

I'll never relent, as I'm sure you and he won't either.

I'll turn the lights out now.

Night.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Goodnight Katie.

We'll continue tomorrow.
If you can convince me I'm wrong, I have no problem relenting on any issue relating to this case.

Most "normal" people would definitely go looking for their child.
Problem is... Manson isn't "normal".
He did a whole lot of things that weren't "normal".

katie8753 said...

Well we'll walk about it tomorrow Lynyrd. Lots of gaps. I don't think anyone is right or wrong.

Night.

katie8753 said...

Well, walk or talk about it. HA HA.

Plenty of time to talk about it tomorrow. Nothing's going to change tonight.

Lynn, I hope you're okay. Didn't mean to submarine you. Sorry. I appreciate your candor. Thanks for opening up. I was just onto other things.

We'll talk tomorrow.

Love you, Katie.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

If I understand this correctly... there are no gaps.
This is the difference of opinion:

I believe, that Manson was born with some serious mental issues, but with the right environment, may have, avoided a life of crime.

I believe, that his mother's mis-treatment of him, was a key environmental factor, which pushed him (further) in the wrong direction.
I believe, that when he couldn't find her (try as he might) after his release in '67... it was the final nail, in his coffin.
That final experience, coupled with his in-born mental disposition, sealed the deal.
(which is essentially, what Poirot said)

I believe, Manson is what he is... due to how he was born, AND what he experienced.
I believe the "mother experinces" were key, in the environment area.
How could they not be?
It's a Nature AND Nurture theory.

----------------------------------------

Katie believes, in a "Nature Only" theory.

She believes... Manson was born a sociopath from jump... and was destined to become what he did... regardless of what his mother did... or didn't do.

Katie believes Manson's experiences, or "let-downs", regarding his mother, didn't matter... because he was incapable of true love anyway... by his very in-born nature.

--------------------------------------------
Thing is... neither side will ever "prove" the other wrong.

The Nature VS Nurture battle has been raging in psychological fields for a century.

Im sure there's been a team of psychologists following Manson around for years... and, they ain't figured him out yet.

We're most likely going to have to just agree, to disagree on this one.

--------------------------------------------
I have a really hard time dis-counting all Manson's experiences, from this equation.

ALTHOUGH:
There ARE maniacs worse than Manson, who have come from fabulous homes... which is a fact, which weighs heavily in Katie's favor.
It DOES happen, where there's seemingly NO environmental factor to point to.

In Manson's case... I believe environment, especially his mother's actions were a key factor.
Can I prove that?
NO.

MrPoirot said...

Manson repeatedly mentions contacting or attempting to contact his family and friends from his past. He also mentions frequently, his bitterness about being forgotten by his wife, mother and friends. He mentions his wife writing him in prison informing him of divorce and desire to remarry taking his son with her. He said this was a bitter lesson he learned. He definantly felt betrayed.

When Bobby Mary and Sandra were arrested Manson went nuts. He mentions his rage at "his loves being taken from him". He screamed and began punching an oak tree at Spahn's. In his mind he thought, here we go again I'm having my family being stolen from me. He vowed vengence and set out on TLB.

Mary said...

Lynn said...I am really tired and worn out. My 17 year old baby cat is dying and it has been extremely difficult and I am an emotional wreck

Lynn, I am very sorry. I have pets myself and know that they become part of the family...it is really tough when they are hurt or pass...it is wonderful that you were able to cherish her for 17 wonderful years!

Mary said...

Mr P said...When Bobby Mary and Sandra were arrested Manson went nuts. He mentions his rage at "his loves being taken from him". He screamed and began punching an oak tree at Spahn's. In his mind he thought, here we go again I'm having my family being stolen from me. He vowed vengence and set out on TLB.

Interesting - I don't think I ever heard this in terms of setting the scene...hmmm

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, you are exactly right. Nature VS Nurture. We have different opinions on that issue. I agree 100%.

>>>Mr P. said: When Bobby Mary and Sandra were arrested Manson went nuts. He mentions his rage at "his loves being taken from him". He screamed and began punching an oak tree at Spahn's. In his mind he thought, here we go again I'm having my family being stolen from me. He vowed vengence and set out on TLB.>>>

I don't recall reading that anywhere.

As I said before, I don't think Charlie had any real love for anyone in the group.

For instance, the reason Mary & Sandy were arrested is because Charlie wanted them to steal. He knew how it felt to be arrested and put in jail/prison, yet he put them in harm's way over and over again, knowing it was only a matter of time until they got caught. These were capable young women who could easily have gotten a job and supported the family legally. But he didn't want that, because he knew that if they got back into the "real world" they would realize he was nuts and split, probably taking others with them.

As far as Bobby goes, the reason Charlie was upset with his arrest is because he was afraid that Bobby would start talking and implicate him in the Hinman murder. Plain and simple.

He was always preaching to his "children" to forget about their parents and all their teachings because that was all "bad brainwashing". Doesn't sound to me like he had any regard for parents.

Mr. P: Nothing personal, I just don't agree with you.

St. Circumstance said...

Mrs Circumstance has three cats- sorry for your pain Liz :)

Is everyone sleeping??

OK- lights out lol

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mr. Poirot says>>>>
"He mentions his wife writing him in prison informing him of divorce and desire to remarry taking his son with her".<<<<

That's right.
I do remember reading, that's basically how that went down.
She stuck by him for about a year (living with Kathleen Maddox I believe), then after a year, bailed for another man.
And yes... Manson was pissed.

I think that's written right in the first few pages of "The Family"... I'm 90% positive of that.

-------------------------------------------------
Mr. Poirot said>>>>
"When Bobby Mary and Sandra were arrested Manson went nuts. He mentions his rage at "his loves being taken from him". He screamed and began punching an oak tree at Spahn's. In his mind he thought, here we go again I'm having my family being stolen from me. He vowed vengence and set out on TLB".

I'll have to "third" Mary, and Katie's comment, that I've never heard or seen, that story re-counted anywhere.
I'd love to read that.
Any reference you can give us Poirot? Book? Interview? Video?
That would shed a lot of light on Manson's mindset, if nothing else... and lend creedence to the basic "bitterness" theory.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mr Poirot:

I do believe Manson loved his mother.

I seriously question how much Manson loved the members of the family, in a true sense.
It seems to me, he used them all for his own ends, in a very selfish manner.

Squeaky maybe... I'll go for him loving Squeaky.
They had a spcial bond.
As for the rest... I'm very skeptical.

Your account of him punching the tree, and all that, may sway my opinion, if I could see it in a second source.

MrPoirot said...

Dunno which books but it's a well worn tale. I've read it in several books.
He began punching the oak after getting back from Easelen Insitute with Stephanie Schram. Sadie told him of the recent arrests. Charlie's world was crashing down upon him. He had gone to Easelen for a break from the pressures of being a cult leader only to arrive back at Spahn's and discovering all hell had broken loose.

Yes there is a youtube showing the tree he punched. I've seen it but can't find it.

Lynn said...
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Lynn said...
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Ken619 said...

Sorry about your cat Lynn:( A few months ago, my dog was in the same place. He was a large dog that was family. He had cancer. He was perfectly fine mentally, but his legs went out on him. I would have to carry him outside to go to the bathroom. I put him down because I felt I didn't want him to suffer any pain. It was a very, very hard decision. I feel it was the right decision to not drag it out for my own needs. I miss him very much. I wish you well in dealing with your cat, it's hard.

katie8753 said...

Wow Lynn, you've got quite a story there. What happened when you met your birth mother? Are you saying that your birth siblings were adopted out to other places? That's gotta suck.

I hope your cat gets better. I had to make the decision to put down my favorite cat in the world about a year ago. I watched him suffer every day, just too afraid to make the decision, but when one morning I saw that his left eye had gone blind as well as not being able to breathe, I made the decision that it was enough. I had my older son take him to the vet to be put to sleep. It was a very hard thing to do, so I understand completely.

katie8753 said...

Hi Ken. You're right, pets can be just like our kids and the decision to put them down is excrutiating. I felt like you did, by extending his life I was being selfish because I didn't want to let him go.

About 3 months after he was put down, I got a call from the vet's office. They said they had something for me. I went and got it, and they had made an imprint of his paw for me with his name on it in plaster. I have it on my mantle, along with his ashes.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Sorry to hear about your dog Ken.

I've had to put down two dogs in my life, and it's not an easy thing.

Both times, I felt uneasy, not knowing what was to become of my dog's remains... as stupid as that sounds.

Both times, I actually took the dog home, and buried him in my back yard.
It just seemed like the right thing to do, and I felt good, knowing the dog was home.

I guess everyone deals with things differently.
The rest of the folks at the vet clinic, must have thought I was a complete quack, carrying my deceased dog out.
It felt right to me... so whatever... I did it, and have no regrets.

Peace... Lynyrd

Lynn said...
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katie8753 said...

Lynn, I'm so sorry. I can't even imagine how you must feel.

My father was a doctor and a self-centered egotist. But my mother was a saint. I miss her every single day.

I'm sorry you didn't have at least one parent who was a good role model.

Cudos to you that you had a great adoptive family to steer you clear of ending up like your parents.

You can't blame yourself for what your parents did. You do know that...right?

I hope your kitty fares well.

I always have an ear if you need to talk!!

Love ya, Katie

katie8753 said...

Lynn you can e-mail me at katie8753 on my You Tube account if you need to talk. If you can't find that, let me know. We'll figure something out.

Have a good night. And know in your heart, that whatever happens to your kitty, it will be for the best!!

Katie

Mary said...

Lynn - thank you for sharing your story. Blood is not the end all be all - and it takes much more than carrying a child and giving birth to be a mother. Almost any woman can do that...it sounds like you had a wonderful mother, your real mother, the one who adopted you.

Blessings to you and your family.

Lynn said...
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katie8753 said...

Well sweet dreams Lynn. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day!