Tuesday, July 21, 2015

Can you feel sympathy for the convicted killers ?

The following thread was written by "Grim Traveller". He will be writing threads for LSB3 periodically, as his schedule allows. I look forward to his contributions. Please join me, in welcoming Grim to our staff.

It comes naturally to feel sympathy and sorrow towards victims of crime and the families and friends of those that have been the victims, especially where the crime was violent. There are those that may even extend such sympathy to the families of perpetrators.

However, when it comes to the perpetrators of criminal acts, especially violent crimes, in particular rape and murder, how in the world it is possible to have any kind of sympathy or feel sorry for them ? They have, after all crossed that boundary of no return. They don’t deserve understanding. Sympathy. Solace. Mitigation. Peace. Resolution. All they deserve is death and if that won’t happen, jail until they die. Some rough treatment, hopefully at the hands of some vile, sadistic inmate and a few illnesses that bring excruciating pain wouldn’t go amiss either.

Yet when I look at the backgrounds of some of the members of ‘the family’ I do find myself having a certain amount of sympathy towards some of them.

I want to make it clear and stress that having sympathy doesn’t mean I think they got the wrong sentences or were not guilty or should necessarily be paroled. Some of them {Pat Krenwinkel, Bobby Beausoleil and Charles Watson in particular} were extremely fortunate that the death penalty in California was abolished after they’d been given it, while Steve Grogan was fortunate that the judge in his case overrode the jury’s death verdict.

Yet with all this in mind, I do have some sympathy with some of the convicted killers.

I feel in some ways for Charles Manson. Yes, it’s true that he could have gone down a different path in life, one that ensures we’d probably never have heard of him. All human beings are blessed with choices and the ability to choose. But human parents are also charged with the responsibility, whether by God, the State, the tribe, the family {no pun intended} or whoever else, to show children the right way. And not just by telling them verbally. The right way has to be observed and observed over a lengthy period. And even living it isn’t enough. Children need to be invested in right up to the point at which they become adults and a little beyond.

Who invested in Charlie Manson ?

His Dad wasn’t even known to him. His Mum didn’t want him. Numerous times she tried to get rid of him. Certainly in England, if a woman did half the things Kathleen Maddox did to her son as a child, she would be in jail were it nowadays. 

Manson says:
“She started a man without a Father.....the biggest disappointment in her life was getting pregnant when she was 14. When she got pregnant, she said ‘wow, man!’ And I came. And there wasn’t no abortion clinics, you dig. And I ruined her life. I destroyed her whole life. I was the biggest disappointment in her life.

And all her life, she queered everything I ever tried to do. She would tell me she was coming to get me and leave me standing there dressed in a little suit waiting to go home on Monday morning and she wouldn’t show. And then they’d take me back and then tell me ‘next week’ and then she wouldn’t show. And then she would just tear my heart out and throw it on the ground and stomp on it. She tortured me and tormented me and destroyed me a thousand times. She kept me locked up for over 22 years.....”

Having worked with 5~16 year olds for over three decades and seen first hand what a less than stellar beginning can bring in someone’s life, I can’t help but be sympathetic. Charlie goes on about how “the DA” created him but in truth, his parents were the first rung on that creation ladder. 

None of this excuses his future criminal pursuits. It’s hard however, to believe that had his parents loved him and invested in him, he would have gone down the same path. Of course, he might have. But the cards were seriously stacked against him from even before he was born. Although he says it taught him to rely on himself, it’s not hard to see that it truly hamstrung him too. 

“When you was going to high school and you was doing all the little things that you was doing ~ I was crying.......your Mother bought you shoes and sent you to school. My Mother gave me a handful of comic books and sold me for a pitcher of beer. She ran off and left me and went to the penitentiary, you dig ? And what do you think that did to my brain ?”

What indeed ?

Pat Krenwinkel astutely observed of him “so, obviously he didn't have a very high view of families.”

But it gets worse because his Mum’s attempts to get rid of him eventually succeeded. But where he ended up was arguably worse than where he was coming from. Again, a series of State run boys homes/training camps/correctional facilities should have provided something that was not a training academy for future criminals. Of course there were those that worked in such places who had the boys’ best interests as uppermost in their minds and practices.

There were also those that did not.

It’s those in that vein that help perpetuate {rather than create} monsters. People in positions of responsibility that have some kind of self appointed mandate to carry out some warped justice by “treating the scum like the scum that they are.” I wonder how many workers in those facilities looked back over the years at where some of their young charges eventually ended up in life and were honest enough to take a certain measure of responsibility for their part in the blooming of a lawless monster. Yet we get more than upset when the criminal refuses to take responsibility for their crimes.........

Charles Manson has alluded on a number of occasions to the brutality he encountered in various facilities before he was in jail. Although in “Goodbye Helter skelter” George Stimson says that the story of Manson being gang raped is untrue and that the author Nuel Emmons admitted to making it up, in Stimson’s own book, Manson states, among other things, “”when you’re in juvenile hall in boys school, children don’t have no mercy on each other. Children are very vicious. They’re born predators. The shit that I went through before I met you, [when I met you guys,] I knew that no one was no fucking good. They treated me bad because they could get away with it. They just look for someone they can get off on. They get off on anybody they can. They get you on four point restraint and no one’s looking, you dig ? Then they do all kinds of things that you ain’t ever even dreamed – you ain’t seen the bottom of this pit......” which I guess can be taken any number of ways to mean a whole slew of things but it doesn’t sound vastly different from the Emmons supposed claim of what Manson told him, especially when it’s part of Manson’s own record that he raped a fellow inmate and had other sexual assault incidents that played a part in him being moved from one facility. Where did that come from ? It could be that from young he really was the embodiment of evil but I don’t buy that ~ human life isn’t as simple as that. He would have to have been one of the most remarkable people ever to have lived if he hit the streets in ’67 with no ill will towards authority, the establishment and the society that gave it the space and consent in which to operate.

As stated earlier, none of this excuses his later activities in life but I think it is naive to simply dismiss the effect his early life had on him.

Can you feel sympathy for the convicted killers ?

Is there anything in the early lives of some of the convicted murderers that, when considered thoughtfully, could cause you to feel in any way sorry for any of them ?
Would you feel any sympathy if we weren’t talking about killers ?

Lest anyone take me for an apologist, I must stress that very rarely in life are there occurrences that actually force anyone to kill, much less commit murder, so excuses are out of the window from the kick off. However, by ignoring mitigating circumstances or factors that may have played a part, are we not shutting our eyes to something which often comes back to plague us again and again ?

I think one can see possible reasons that contributed to someone going down a particular road without saying that what they did was somehow justifiable.

When the Tate case was said to be ‘solved’ in December 1969, three particular things shook many in the Western world; one was the tender age of those indicted for such savage crimes. Another was that four of the indicted were not only young, but young women, that looked like hippies, not experienced, battle/street hardened ghetto types. The third thing was that they seemed to come from normal homes with what were then seen to be normal suburban middle class values from the most advanced and powerful nation in the world.
However, much of the 60s counterculture was precisely about the seeming redundancy of those “normal suburban middle class values from the most advanced and powerful nation in the world.” While on the surface, they looked wholesome, beneath was the emergence of a very different picture. Patricia Krenwinkel, Susan Atkins, Leslie Van Houten & Bruce Davis {not to mention Charles Watson, Bobby Beausoleil, Mary Brunner & Steve Grogan} came from such backgrounds and all emerged as damaged people that were only too ready to join up with those that questioned and sought to dispense with Western values.

None of this justifies murder but I can’t help feeling for Bruce Davis, frequently denigrated by his Dad and raped twice, at 12 & 13, in an era {the 50s} when almost no one spoke about such things.  A close relative of mine is almost 70 and he’s still hurting about his relationship with his Dad whom he feels wasn’t there for him and constantly put him down when he was there.  I’ve known a few people of the older age group in that situation. It doesn’t necessarily get dealt with or just go away. And in the last three years here in England, there have been a series of high profile cases brought by people that were raped and sexually abused when they were children by entertainment celebrities, politicians, priests, teachers {and others not at all well known} back in the 50s, 60s and 70s and one sees just how these victims have been affected throughout their adult lives in a variety of different and harrowing ways.

I can’t help feeling for a  woman that felt ugly and unlovable as Pat Krenwinkel says she did, which was then compounded by the divorce of her parents, which, had they not parted could have been one thing that just might have helped keep her head together. She actually stated in one parole hearing “my parents' separation was, you know, I felt it was definitely my problem, that I had created it” ~ a not uncommon response to a parental split, even though she acknowledged “my father was a workaholic and eventually broke, destroyed the marriage, and that's why they divorced.....you know, during the 50s, no one really talked about their problems or there was very little discussed” which led her to the point where she observed; “I wanted so badly to be acceptable, to be loved......
I became anything, I would do anything, because I wanted somehow to have someone say I was something special in their eyes.” That her half sister fell into drug problems and had kids she had problems caring for {with one being adopted out and the other having emotional problems} and eventually died of an overdose, found in a river, shows that Pat wasn’t the only one affected by goings on in the household.

I can’t help feeling for Susan Atkins, who, arguably was already on the negative drift when her Mum became ill and then died of cancer, resulting in her Dad just leaving the family home which meant that a teenage Susan and her little brother were shuffled here and there. Her younger brother observed “Then our mother passed on. We were all young. Susan was 15, I was nine and our older brother, Mike, was 18 and went right into the service....Our father ended up having to sell both houses and all of our furniture to pay for our mother's hospital bills. My mother's death was very hard on all of us. Our father turned to alcohol, which left my sister, Susan and I home alone a lot. We were very close and became dependent upon each other. One day our father left us. Susan was going to school and working full time to keep a roof over our head. The landlord would not accept our rent money from Susan as she was not of age to be my legal guardian, which led us to look for somewhere to live. Susan reached our brother, Mike, in the service and even though Mike had just recently married, Mike took me in. That left Susan alone to fend for herself.” But that ‘negative drift’ didn’t happen in a vacuum, she states both her parents were constantly drunk and rowing even before this, while she was sexually abused by friends of her Dad and worse, by her older brother and his friends. In 2005, she said she hadn’t seen that brother since before she was arrested.

And is it sheer coincidence that Leslie Van Houten’s descent into the darkness of teen pregnancy, abortion and drug experimentation has it’s genesis right there in the aftermath of her parent’s divorce ? While it’s often thought that mid teens can be pretty much left to their own devices, I would that it’s in this crucial, never to be repeated period of transition from child to adult that the strongest guidance, tolerance and understanding is needed. Things can go awry at any point in a person’s life with devastating consequences but schisms in the transition can leave a set of problems that may take almost a lifetime to overcome. That most get through it unscathed is scant consolation because many do not and it sometimes seems that those affected are held responsible for matters they aren’t equipped to negotiate their way through.

There is plenty of documentation to be found in books, parole hearing transcripts, trial transcripts, magazine articles & interviews, broadcast interviews and internet sites for those that are looking for ways to piece the puzzles together ~ almost a half centuries worth.

Even if none of the above mentioned had gone on to murder, I’d have a certain amount of sympathy. I’d feel for them if they were train drivers, nurses, company executives, sports stars, refuse collectors, school cooks or hobos. That sympathy doesn’t disappear because of what they went on to do. Neither does it lay the groundwork for arguing for their freedom.
But what say you ?

Wednesday, June 24, 2015

The Milky Way, The Corral Night Club in Topanga Canyon, and Ernie Knapp

Not much has been said about the little band Charles Manson started in late 1967. I only recall Charlie, Bobby Beausoleil, and possibly Paul Watkins, mentioning the little band they formed called "The Milky Way".  

I suppose the reason they never discussed it much, is because the group only played one night together. That one gig was played at the Topanga Corral (now long gone, it burned down)... but it had been a happening place in the 1960's.

It's said that Canned Heat, Neil Young, and Taj Mahal played there. It's also rumored that  Road House Blues by the immortal Jim Morrison was written about Topanga Corral.  Dennis Hopper and Peter Fonda were regulars there. It's too bad it burned down in the 1970's. I missed out!

Ernie Knapp: "I played in a band with Charles Manson".
Charles Manson and Ernie Knapp (1969)
The following interview was submitted by a friend of the blog, named Viktor.
Thank You so much Viktor! This is so cool!

A guy by the name of Ernie Knapp (a session musician that played bass with the Beach Boys in concert during 1981-82) was interviewed (last year) by Sonny Vincent (a musician in his own right). 

During the interview, Ernie talks about being the bass player in a band with Charles Manson called "The Milky Way", which played one show at the Topanga Corral.

Side note: 

"The Snake Pit" was a seedy area in lower Topanga, built in a debris/flood basin during the 1920's.  In Ed Sanders book "The Family", he talks about the "Spiral Staircase"... a house that had slid off its foundation during a flood. According to Sanders, the DeGrimstons of the "The Process Church" owned or rented this place. Lots of bikers, homeless, druggies, hippies, and the Manson Family called this place home for a while in the late 60's.

Here is part of the interview by Sonny Vincent and Ernie Knapp:

ERNIE: Well, that was in the fall of 1967. I had been going to college down in San Diego for two years before that and I had just got kicked out for smoking pot. So I was back in LA at my parents’ house trying to figure out what to do next. My friend there, Bay Johnson, owned a couple of little houses and little shacks down in a place in Topanga Canyon called ‘The Snake Pit’. It was a real hippie area of little cabins and shacks and a few old houses across the coast highway from the beach, kind of in the river bed. That place is all gone now. It all got wiped out in a flood.

SV: What was it called? The Snake what?
ERNIE: The Snake Pit.
SV: The Snake Pit. OK, sorry I have a problem with this microphone. OK, got it…
ERNIE: Yeah, Bay had bought these little houses ‘cause he had a bunch of hash that his brother had smuggled into the country and anyway that’s another story. And he was renting them to these two musicians, Desi Nod and Johnny Riggins, who were guys that were like 5 years older than me, who were like my idols, you know? They were in the big bands around west LA at that time and even going back into the early 60s. And so I had played with them. I was just kind of starting to play the guitar. I had got to play with them a couple of times and was excited about that and, anyway, when I got into LA in 1967 they took me down there to visit them. And this guy Charlie had just came down from San Francisco in this big yellow school bus and he had like 5 or 6 girls with him in his bus and Bay was all… getting with the girls…real cute girls…and Charlie moved into this biggest house down there in The Snake Pit. And then it turned out that Charlie met these guys, these musicians, and they decided to start a band. So they introduced me to him and told me they were looking for a guitar player and would I like to audition. So I went down there the next day.
SV: So he was actually auditioning people?
ERNIE: Yeah.
SV: (laughs) OK.
ERNIE: So I went down there the next day and walked into Charlie’s living room. It was Charlie and his whole clan. He also had a couple of real gnarly kind of biker dudes with him who were not very nice at all. In fact, when and while I was setting up, one guy pulled a knife on somebody else and Charlie had to stop a big fight. So it was a little tense. And I was nervous. I was set up in that living room with people in a big circle all around me, getting ready to check me out. I had learned the night before… you know that song, that was brand new back then… that Cream song that goes tatataratata ta?
SV: Oh, yeah, ‘Sunshine Of Your Love?
ERNIE: Probably the most cliché lick in all history of music now, you know? Now people play it as a joke. So, anyway, I played that and they liked it. They said, “OK, yeah, you can be in the band.” We had one rehearsal and the rehearsal was really intimidating too ‘cause they brought in some other keyboard player from Malibu who I didn’t know and who was not very nice. The two older guys I knew, Johnny and Desi. They were pretty nice to me. And Charlie was OK. But I was really intimidated, you know, so I wasn’t playing very assertively. The biker dudes started hassling me at the rehearsal. I remember Charlie stood up for me. I was twenty years old and the guys in the room were probably thirty back then. Charlie said, “Hey, the kid is nervous but give him a chance and he’ll be fine.” So I relaxed and then it was good. We learned, uh, like 8 songs and about half of them were Charlie’s and his songs, you know, were weird. They were kind of old fashioned jazz chords and real meandering progressions that didn’t go really anywhere. Knowing more about him now, I could kind of imagine how he would have all day to sit around in his cell playing the guitar, you know? [*Sonny’s note: I have listened to many recordings of Manson’s music and I like it.]
SV: Sure, man.
ERNIE: You know, everybody were good sports and figured out parts of the songs and we could play them. Then we learned a few standards rock and blues songs that everybody knew. We wind up a couple of days later and auditioned at The Corral which is a club high up in Topanga Canyon. At that time, it was a full-on redneck bar.
SV: So you guys …cool….this is getting way more detailed than I hoped. I thought you merely kind of jammed a couple of times but you auditioned and then you were accepted as a member of Charlie Manson’s band? Now you guys are together and going for an audition at a club. Jesus, Ernie!!
ERNIE: (laughs) Yeah.
SV: Wow, OK.
ERNIE: We went up there in the afternoon and Charlie was gonna call the band ‘The Solar System’. But anyway…
SV: Hey, Ernie, were you guys like all mega stoned and everything at this jam sessions and rehearsals and all?
ERNIE: There were people smoking pot and stuff but it was pretty business-like as far as getting some songs together and going up and playing.
SV: So you seriously were putting a band together. That’s an amazing part of your history, Ernie!
ERNIE: So we went up and set up in the bar in the afternoon and played for the owner and, you know, some other kind of barfly guys hanging around. It didn’t go over at all with them. This was a country western bar.
SV: Hey, Ernie, can I stop for a minute just to crosscheck the tape. I wanna make sure we are rolling good…so we are rolling. So this redneck country bar…
ERNIE: Yeah. And our band was not received well and they kind of told us to get the hell out of there. So we all left. And literally a couple of days later I moved up to Mammoth. My cousin had just gone up there and gotten a job.
SV: Where is that? Mammoth?
ERNIE: Yeah, Mammoth Mountain. A ski resort up in the Sierras.
SV: Ah, OK.
ERNIE: And my cousin had gotten a job as a bus boy in this big fancy restaurant right at the ski lift and said there was an opening. So I went up there and I had a great time. I became a ski bum for like two months.
SV: So you guys did the audition at the country bar and then you split town?
ERNIE: Yeah.
ERNIE: And then I moved straight from Mammoth to Santa Barbara to get back into college ‘cause I had gotten my 1A draft notice. So I had to hustle. I got back into UCSB for the spring quarter which got the draft off my back. Then I was just living in Santa Barbara and, actually in my recollection, that’s where later, it was around 1969 I think, when everything blew up with Charlie. Where I was…I think I was walking into the Student Union at UCSB and saw, you know, the LA Times in a news rack with his face, you know, covering the whole sheet, the whole page. I just went, “Holy shit!! Uhh…Charlie!!” My feelings about it, even at that time, it was…it was creepy in the way the people were with Charlie and the way he was with them. It was very manipulative and it was real uncomfortable for me.
SV: Ah, so I got the part right about the newspaper but the location was different. OK. So, you noticed something, even in the early times when you first met Charlie, it was not like what you will encounter with people who are more in harmony with each other. You clearly saw something that was somehow out of balance, eh?
ERNIE: Definitely, and plus he had these evil guys with him too, you know? They really were menacing. I mean, they were thugs. The whole deal in that era…there were a lot of little communes and little hippie groups trying to set up their little places, you know, all over the place…up in the mountains and everywhere you went. And a lot of them…well, Charlie really plugged into people. Everybody was really trying to be more hip than each other, and it was like “I can be freer than you, I can be more free of all this square bullshit than you”, you know?
SV: Uh huh.
ERNIE: He kind of got people, I think. It’s just my own little theory , you know, that was part of how he keep pushing everybody with him to be wilder and I guess ultimately do what he wanted.
SV: Ernie, that’s all amazing.
ERNIE: I didn’t go back to LA much and I never did see him again, but I did hear stuff later through my playing with The Beach Boys. He had a lot of interaction with The Beach Boys and, in particular, Dennis Wilson. Yeah, one day a couple of Charlie’s girls were hitchhiking and Dennis picked them up. That’s how Charlie first met Dennis. They all moved into Dennis’s house and later The Beach Boys actually, you know, recorded a song that Charlie wrote!
SV: Yes, I know that. That’s pretty crazy. And it’s also weird that you wind up playing with The Beach Boys. This is like some kind of weird crossing the universe, you know what I mean? [*Sonny’s note: That’s weird, way fuckin’ weird.]
ERNIE: Yeah! But, you know, but….the theory that I kind of believe in is that Bruce Johnston’s good friend Terry Melcher, Doris Day’s son, was a big music producer in those days. And somehow The Beach Boys got Charlie hooked up with Terry Melcher to produce Charlie and then the whole deal fell through. Charlie was real disappointed and Terry Melcher used to live in the house that Charlie attacked.
SV: Yeah, the Polanski house. Yes, I know the story really well. That’s why it’s so intriguing to me.
ERNIE: Yeah and it’s just…God, how horrible, you know?
SV: Yeah, how weird. Hey, Ernie, let’s get away from Charlie for a moment before we start entering people’s houses and what not, you know?
ERNIE: (laughs)
Ernie with Carl Wilson
To read and LISTEN to the entire interview, go here:


Excerpted from Ed Sanders' book, page 29

Bobby Beausoleil - Oui Magazibe Interview - November 1981

ALB: Were you living at Gary Hinman's at the time?

BB: No, I wasn't living with Gary. I had stayed with him previous to that. I joined a band, The Milky Way, that Charlie was in. That's how I met him. He was a very talented songwriter good musician, lyrically, just excellent. 
He was somebody with an incredibly intense, vivid, expanded imagination because of all the time he's done.

Friday, June 19, 2015

Did The Victims Feel Pain?......

One thing that I've always wondered about when contemplating these horrible murders is that you never hear of anyone really saying that they're in pain.  Yes, there are stories of some guy yelling, "No, don't!" (etc) but there's no indication of when that definitely happened.  And, yes, we know that Abigail told Pat that she was "already dead."  Of course, some people are skeptical but this is the official story so....

Here are my thoughts on this.  First, I need to give you some background.  I started babysitting at the age of 10 or 11.  I know that's young but I was very responsible, lived in a small town, knew practically everyone and was never afraid as I knew help was always near.  I was booked up weeks and months in advance and there were actually arguments sometimes over who'd get me to watch their kids.  You know, "I asked her first!"  "No, you didn't!"  So, I almost had a day care business.  There were times I'd be watching a zillion kids in one day.  I kept babysitting until my early 20's, then stopped because the kids were growing up and I needed to join the real world.  

When I was about 20, I was babysitting for a neighbor who had 2 kids who were 3 and 5.  I'd taken care of them practically since birth so I was very comfortable in their house.  This particular night, I was going to get the kids a snack so I went to the kitchen to get something.  Their mom had washed dishes and left them in the drainer on the counter.  I remember thinking that it was strange that she left sharp knives with the blades pointing up.  I thought about putting away the dishes as this was the sort of thing I did (along with picking up toys, dusting or whatever looked like it needed to be done) and figured that I'd do it after the kids were in bed.

I reached into a cabinet above the dishes to get a snack (this was the snack cabinet filled with pretzels and so on) for the kids and a glass for myself (to have some soda).  When I lowered my arm I can remember thinking that things just seemed strange.  I can't describe it but it was like I was there, but not there.  Things seemed very dreamlike. I'm sure you've all been woken out of a sound sleep and you aren't quite sure you're awake.  This was sort of how that felt.  Everything seemed to be in slow motion.  My eyes were sort of wandering all over.  I remember thinking about the glass in my hand and looked at it.  It was all red and I couldn't figure that out. My arm was all red too and there was red all over the floor.  The redness was dripping from my arm.

I turned toward the dish drainer and noticed that the tallest knife had blood that was quite a way down the blade.  I looked at my arm and saw a gaping hole in it midway between my wrist and elbow. Now, I'm VERY squeamish so the fact that I could look INTO this hole and not pass out still amazes me.  I had enough sense to realize that I needed help NOW

This was before cell phones and 911.

I told the kids to stay put on the couch, grabbed a towel, wrapped it around my arm and ran to the next door neighbors but they weren't home.  I went to another neighbor who was a paramedic and he said that I definitely needed to go to the hospital.  His wife went with me to get the kids as she said she'd watch them.  (I had no way of getting hold of the parents as this was before cell phones and I didn't have the phone number of where they were, plus I just didn't have the time to try to find it)

Once I knew the kids were ok, off we went to the hospital.  Long story short, I had several stitches put in my arm and was really surprised that I felt no pain.  The ER staff wasn't really surprised and they kept saying that I'd feel it when the shock wore off.

We got back to town, I picked up the kids, we walked back to their house, I got them ready for bed and their parents happened to call.  After hearing what'd happened, they said they'd come right home but I said it was ok, I was fine, they could stay where they were.  I think they came home a few hours later.  In the meantime, I'd cleaned up the kitchen and wiped it down as best I could without getting my huge bandage wet.

At the hospital, my bill was under my folks' insurance but the neighbors said they wanted to take care of it and they did.  They told me later that they found blood all over the place, I'd left quite a trail going from the kitchen to the family room, out the back door....I thought I'd gotten it all but missed a lot too.  I was still feeling very foggy tho.  When I went to the Dr. later to get the stitches out it was clear that the wound hadn't fully healed.  I still have a puffy area where this happened

So, I really think that they were all suffering from extreme shock and I've always wondered if they experienced what I did, the sort of dreamlike state.  If so, that explains a lot.  I didn't feel pain until about 6 hours after this happened and by the next day my arm was incredibly black and blue

I really don't know how to end this thread, this is just a story about an event that happened to me and I've often wondered if this is sort of what they experienced.

Thursday, June 18, 2015

Manson and Bugliosi had even more in common than you might think...

Ok, so it's the MailOnline US - news, sport, celebrity, science and health stories but what the hell.

 Click here for the link to the story.

Charles Manson prosecutor 'had secret love child with his mistress of 23 years'

Vincent Bugliosi passed away in a Los Angeles hospital on Saturday evening following a years-long battle with cancer, his family said He famously prosecuted Charles Manson and three of his cult followers for the horrific murders of actress Sharon Tate and six others in 1969 The attorney turned the trial - the longest and most expensive in LA history at the time - into a marathon showcase for the killers' bizarre lifestyles After the case, he made failed bids for DA and became a defense attorney but gained greatest success in writing a dozen books 'Helter Skelter' - about the Manson case - became one of the best-selling true crime books of all time

The man who successfully prosecuted cult leader Charles Manson died earlier this month leaving behind two children-or so that's what people thought. Vincent Bugliosi left behind his wife of 59 years, Gail and their two adult children, Vincent and Wendy. And on Tuesday a woman claiming to be Vincent Bugliosi's lover of 23 years, Lydia Alvarez, has stepped out of the woodwork to say the two of them had a secret child together named Nina. Bugliosi who wrote the book 'Helter Skelter,' also apparently has five grandchildren that until now were kept hush hush, reports The New York Post. 'I am looking for a PR agency to represent me in selling a story to a newspaper or magazine about the unknown personal life story of Vince Bugliosi,' Alvarez wrote in an email to several PR firms. Alvarez says she wants to write memoir called, 'My Helter Skelter Life with Vince Bugliosi,' but said she wanted to wait until after he died to go public with her story

Tuesday, June 9, 2015

Former L.A. District Attorney, Vincent Bugliosi, Best Known for Prosecuting Charles Manson Dies

Posted 10:45 PM, June 8, 2015, by Los Angeles Times, Updated at 11:03pm, June 8, 2015
Vincent Bugliosi, the Los Angeles County deputy district attorney who gained worldwide fame for his successful prosecutions of Charles Manson and his followers for the brutal 1969 murders of actress Sharon Tate and six others, has died. He was 80.

Monday, June 8, 2015

Sharmagne Leland-St. John, Jay Sebring, Roman, and Elizabeth Folger

Normally, this is something I would never do, share a Facebook post unless it was Public. 

However, realizing that over 2,000 people are friends with this person (whom I won't name here), I figured it's not really private anymore, and Sharmagne is also quite public.

Here is the post:

I love this part:  
"Bugliosi withheld so much info on the murders, but I never understood why."

Personally, I've never heard of Sharmagne Leland-St. John until I read the above post.  She says she was Jay Sebring's girlfriend.   I'll admit I don't know much at all about Jay's private life during that time, maybe someone that does can chime in...

She has a public Facebook page, a Wiki page, and an IMdB page.  Sharmagne is quite accomplished as a poet and actress.  Her parents were actors.  She was married to Richard Sylbert, the Oscar-winning production designer.



I checked the Tate/LaBianca police reports and she is not listed as a suspect, although she clearly admits she was, along with Charles Tacot and others.

It's also the first I've read that Roman had plans of switching houses with Michael Butler.

(From Wiki) 

"Michael Butler is an American theatrical producer best known for bringing the rock musical Hair from Public Theater to Broadway in 1968.  During his time as Hair producer he was dubbed by the press as "the Hippie Millionaire."

"My future nephew was married to Gibby's younger sister."  In researching Elizabeth Folger, I could only find that Elizabeth was married to Robert Eldred.  Not sure if Robert was her future nephew, but thought I would throw all this out there as most here are always interested in the Folgers.

Here is Elizabeth in 2010:

Robert Eldred is a Financial Planner in the Bay Area.

And once again we hear the story that the Manson girls were swimming in the Cielo pool a day before the murders.

I faintly remember reading something long ago about the cast from Hair being questioned,  (also thrown out of Mexico at that time) but I don't recall the specifics...unfortunately...

Anyway, I'm glad to see some of the folks that were actually there starting to speak up, maybe with all these little tid-bits we'll be able to connect more dots!