Carrie Leonetti wrote this. She ravages Bugliosi and leans toward the copycat theory. She also suggests that Manson belonged in a mental institute (because of his schizophrenia) rather than prison.
This is from page 267. Who is the "he" she is referring to?
"Much of the other evidence is inconsistent with the portrayal of Manson as a cult leader, instigator, or facilitator. According to several accounts, including his own, Manson liked to leave Spahn Ranch and travel alone for significant periods of time around the time of the murders. Danny DeCarlo, the leader of the Straight Satans motorcycle gang, was in charge of the “gun room” at Spahn’s Ranch. According to Manson, DeCarlo “taught the kids” to use guns. Beausoleil had previously lived at Hinman’s house and introduced Manson to him.
After Beausoleil was arrested for Hinman’s murder, he and VanHouten, Atkins, Kasabian, and Krenwinkel hatched the plan to commit “copycat murders,” in order to exculpate Beausoleil, while Manson was out of town."
Obviously Tex since he's not named as one of the participants
Bobby was arrested on the 6th while Charlie was still up the coast with Schramm in the bread truck, he didn't find out Bobby had been arrested until the afternoon of the 8th when him and Schramm got back from picking up her stuff in San Diego
Well that was misleading. She should have said Tex's name. That was strange.
Okay I've only read part of this and will continue reading, but it sounds like she's basically building her case that Charlie wasn't in control of anyone or anything, which I don't agree with.
According to several family members, by Charlie's rules, they weren't allowed to wear watches or jewelry or carry identification. Most of them had alias names and/or nicknames, which further takes away any personal identity or remembrance of their former lives. They were told what to say, when to say it, what to sing, when to sing it, etc. They participated in sex as directed by Charlie. This is all typical cult behavior. Jim Jones and David Koresh did the same things.
It's interesting that she thinks Manson acted like a fool in court because he had some kind of unmedicated mental problems. But if you look at the actual footage during the trial of Charlie walking down the hall to the courtroom, he would smile pleasantly at the news people and exchange pleasantries like he was completely normal. Does mental illness only strike when you are in a courtroom and don't like what the judge or DA is saying??
And I think that Charlie driving them to the LaBiancas makes him just as guilty because he KNEW they were going to kill the LaBiancas, whether or not he told them to. He knew that!
I love the fact that this document gives credence to the notion that Bugliosi was a corrupt, lying, self-centered, scheming opportunist.
The copycat theory is interesting because the murder of Hinman and the murders at Cielo Drive are very different. You would think that if your goal was a complete "copy cat", you would make them identical.
The phone lines were not cut at Hinman. They were at Cielo.
At the Hinman house, there was only one murder. Gary. And he was only stabbed once. Then smothered.
At Cielo, we had multiple stab wounds to several people, one shot and stabbed and one shot down with a gun.
At the Hinman house, we had a victim held captive for days, and the killers even answering the phone and faking an English accent.
At Cielo, we had the killers maybe 2 hours at the crime scene, then fleeing.
The only similarity is the bloody imprint. At Hinman it was on the wall above Gary's body. At Cielo, it was on the door.
Tell me how this was a copy cat killing.
This book really rambles. The author states that Tex had Roman Polanski's phone number in his "address book".
Susan Atkins never killed anyone. She just had a big mouth.
Katie8753, I think the fact that Tex Watkins and co used tons of drugs ruined their chances of efficiently making the TLB murders look like Hinman’s. The motivation was copycat. The results were far from it.
Fact is, Bugliosi’s Helter Skelter is preposterous BS that makes Johnnie Cochran’s LAPD framing OJ theory look credible. If somebody believes the HS theory, they make me question their willingness to think for themselves.
I have to admit, I read this treatise twice. Once, out of interest, and the second time to address my disbelief of what I read the first time.
The one positive thing is that the author does know how to cite sources. The negative thing, and there are many, is that she starts with a conclusion, but then cherry picks her sources to validate her beliefs. Do many authors do this? Yes, and that is why those books are published as fiction, When she heavily relies on sources that are sympathetic to the Wooly Hophead, she willingly discards any and every shred of impartiality that she may have started with. She abandons Manson’s voluntary behavior prior to, during, and after the murders, blaming it all on possible mental illness. What she avoids, however, is his ability to be a highly functioning person in spite of any type of behavioral problems that he may have suffered from. The author can suggest that Manson was an innocent victim, that there was no legal standing possible to warrant, or substantiate, a conviction, but I will point out that a Superior Court, numerous Appellate Courts, and even the California Supreme Court found just the opposite.
There is no doubt that the author is educated, and learned in the area of law, however, teaching law, and practicing (and applying) the law are two different things. It is like teaching how to bake a cake, and actually being able to do it. Experience will give perspective that a classroom lecture will not.
Destroyer of Opinion, I am certain that anyone who does not buy into a copycat motive, believes that HS was one of many motives that were interwoven into the acts, are devastated by the fact that you would question their cognitive and intellectual ability. I hope they can go on and live some sort of life after such a damning indictment....
Dilligaf, those who believe HS was the sole motive make me wonder if they believe everything that came out of Bugliosi’s mouth, as if he didn’t have any flaws. Bugliosi made Johnnie Cochran look like a saint because the HS theory is way less credible than Cochran’s LAPD framing OJ theory.
Destroyer, the Helter Skelter motive actually makes more sense than the copy cat motive.
The only similarity between these killings is that people ended up dead in a violent manner, and random words were written in various places in the victims' blood. There were way more differences than similarities.
And why would they care so much about getting Beausoleil out of jail? Were they that crazy about him? He wasn't even a regular fixture around there. He just kind of drifted in and out as he pleased. When did he suddenly become so vitallly important to this group that they would just go out and kill a bunch of people they had never even met in order to get him out of jail and back in the fold?
Personally I believe in the revenge motive. Manson just blew a fuse and wanted everyone to suffer because he didn't get a recording contract. Of course, with any of these motives, there are things that don't add up.
Katie, from what I’ve read, Linda had strong feelings for Bobby, as other members of the family have stated in Michael White’s “Crucified: the Railroading of Charles Manson.”
As for the HS theory, did many blacks live at or even frequent Cielo Drive? To pin a crime on blacks where blacks hardly frequented would require a hell of a frameup, which is one of the reasons I compare the HS theory to Johnnie Cochran’s LAPD framing theory in the OJ trial. Both involved frameups and worked to secure the desired outcomes.
If Manson were a racist, he could’ve done many other, easier things to start a “race war.”
I find the last part of your comment plausible, though, and can consider it as a motive.
Destroyer, when did Linda have strong feelings for Bobby? The only men I've read that she talked about was Tex & Charlie. The only girl I know of that cared about Bobby was Leslie. And Leslie supposedly wasn't "in on" the copy cat motive creation.
Bobby wasn't really around much. He was much more interested in making a name for himself in the music industry. And according to him, the last thing he did for the "family" was to sell bad drugs to the Straight Satans and put everyone in danger. I hardly think that would endear him to everyone at the ranch.
I absolutely don't believe in the Helter Skelter motive. That's way too far out to be believed.
Now you are getting somewhere. Most people realize that these killings were an almalgamation of many differently reasons, the Wooly Hophead masterfully manipulating many to meet his needs. To some of his followers, HS was talked about, and very real, in their minds.
Even Bugliosi has stated that HS was not the only motive, but it was one that he believed a jury could follow, and believe in. He also understood that in order for Conspiracy charges to stick, he was going to have to wrap it around the Wooly Hopheads neck. Fortunately, the defendant helped him do that with his own courtroom theatrics.
Some would call the DA’s tactics, dishonest, or cheating, but it was neither. Every case, from the most basic misdemeanor, to the most complicated felony, is uniques, and you use whichever strategy will work best in the case at hand. Now, you must follow the law, but in his case, exactly which laws did Bugliosi break in the administration of this case? Not, what one might feel outraged about, but actual violation of both state law, and the canon of ethics that he must adhere to? Funny thing, after every legal review, where did a legal review show that?
As far a Johnny Cochran, I will tell you this. If I am on trial for my life, he, and the dream team, are exactly who I would want defending me. I actually agreed with the verdict, and I believe that the DA’s office repeatedly blew the case, much as it blew many high profile cases during that time. The DA’s Office was consistently biting off more that it could chew, underestimated their legal opponents, and failed to develop a necessary winning strategy.
If Charlie wasn't mentally ill, he was pretty close at times. Implying that you are Jesus Christ and thinking the Beatles are trying to send you personal messages via their songs are typical of the 'delusions of grandeur' suffered by schizophrenics.
Dr. Smith said, "The problem was that Charlie was disturbed. He developed a paranoid delusional system that led to violence,
--"Charlie... also had a lot of serious problems in the area of paranoid delusions, and everything he said was God's word...
--"There are a lot of people like that, and many of them are in mental hospitals. Any individual who has an all-encompassing delusional system
-- "..if they get hooked up with a guy like that, they are in trouble.
-- "If you know schizophrenics, you know how persuasive they can get..."
Which makes her "treatise" no different than any other book or article on the TLB case including Helter Skelter, they're all fiction with some facts thrown in
The motivation began with money for getting out to the desert after Charlie thought he killed Crowe, now he believed he had not only the cops and Satans after him but now the Panthers as well, Hinman was a botched robbery but they at least got a vehicle out of it, Charlie gets back to Spahn with Schramm only to hear the news about Bobbys arrest, now he's REALLY screwed because Bobby knows Charlie shot Crowe and sliced Hinmans ear so his first move is to send Mary and Sandy out with the stolen credit card to fet supplies to break Bobby out of jail, when they get busted it's time to pressure pretty much the only guy left at the ranch, Tex, I killed to save you from your botched deal so now it's your turn to pay me back and help your brother, go get me money I don't care how you get it just get it and then come two of the most botched crimes in history, TLB
Bobby had the goods on Charlie shooting Crowe and slicing Hinmans ear both of which could send Manson back to prison for life, Charlie then rallied everyone with the "get a brother out of jail" bullshit but in reality Charlie didn't give a shit about Bobby
Oh that's right. Everybody hated Bobby. So what was this "copy cat" killing motive???
Manson did have mental problems. But that's not why he acted up in court. He did that because he COULD! And he thought that would let him get his way, which is what he had been getting up until then! He could just throw a hissy fit and people would do what he said.
Katie, I found on page 160 of "Crucified: the Railroading of Charles Manson" (by Michael White) that Gypsy claimed that Linda was in love with Bobby Beausoleil and planned the TLB murders.
"... that's not why he acted up in court."
According to Jerry Rubin, Manson told him when Rubin went to see Manson in jail that he intended to copy the disruptive tactics successfully used by Rubin and other radicals during the 'Chicago Conspiracy Trial' of protest leaders in the aftermath of the Democratic National convention of 1968.
"The trial developed into a quiet spectacle, or "hippie-guerillas theater" as Rubin described it. Rubin, Hoffman and other defendants intentionally and successfully made a mockery of the court, widely covered by the press..."
Acting up did not work for the Chicago Seven, it did not work for the Wooly Hophead, and it does not work for just about any defendant that tries it. Go figure........
Thanks Destroyer. I tend not to believe most of what Gypsy says.
Starviego, that's interesting. I've never thought of Charlie as an activist. I've always thought he was more of a shyster, a con man, a flim flam man. Charlie had the innate ability to be whatever the person he was talking to needed him to be. That was why he had so many followers. Not just the kids at Spahn's Ranch, but lots of people he met.
So if he did say that to Jerry Rubin, that was to hook Jerry Rubin. It isn't necessarily the truth.
I can't imagine being on trial for murder and acting like he did, but I personally think he did it because he thought the rules didn't apply to him and it was the only way he had to get attention.
Who's Matt? Matt Prokes?
Hi Matt!!! :)
I've heard Manson in a few intervuews talk about how Hoffman and Rubin told the kids to rise up and kill their parents and when they did it they went and hid and blamed it on old Charlie lol
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