I dug through some old archives, mainly his 1993 parole hearing - in this, he states the Family said
(regarding the Tate caper as he calls it):
"they were going to do something crazy"...
If we are to believe Davis, he states they lured Shorty on the trip to pick up auto parts.... at night as Babs Hoyt swears to?
It should be interesting if she attends this upcoming hearing, Davis actually shows up, and the question is brought up by the Board or the DA trying to prove Davis has lied all these years.
I doubt this will happen (sigh)...
There are many discrepancies between what Hoyt says, and what Grogan/Davis said.
Hoyt claimed in a letter she heard Shea screaming around 10 p.m. "upstream" from the ranch, she said she recognized his voice. Grogan/Davis claimed he was killed downstream. Apparently, Grogan knew where the remains were,(if they were in fact Shea's) as he led the police to them.
To the best of my knowledge, no one else heard Shea scream that night. Catherine Share has never mentioned it that I know of. Hoyt has motivation to lie, Davis may have been involved in the "hamburger caper" trying to poison Hoyt.
I would think that if what Hoyt says is true, other people at the ranch would have heard Shea scream and would have said something about it by now. Of course that's just speculation.
I'll be surprised if they let Davis out of prison.
Davis kinda contradicts himself, just in these 3 short pages of testimony (from 1993).
Davis states, that he was asked to go along for both the "Tate" and "LaBianca" nights.
Davis states, that he outright refused to go, both nights.
In regards to the Shea murder however... when asked to go along... Davis states:
"I didn't have enough guts to say, I'm not going along"
We are to conclude, that Davis "had enough guts" to refuse participation in both the Tate and LaBianca murders... but, NOT the Shea murder?
Seems a little contradictory to me.
Of course, this is just parole hearing testimony... and not trial testimony... but, these are the kind of things, that make me believe, that these folks are generally full of shit.
And Shorty was supposed to be decapitated too, right?
Davis is full of shit.....let's see if he stays at the hearing this time. I can't imagine getting so close to parole and then calling in sick for the next one. What an odd dude.....lol
I can't believe that Bruce said he was "invited" along those 2 nights and declined, but then accepted the Shorty assignment. What a windbag.
At least that's something we all have in common...we all hate Bruce & Tex. LOL.
Every time Bruce comes up for parole and starts offering his lame excuses for his behavior, I think of that video of him returning from hiding out..his cocky, arrogant crap.
Who does this guy think he's fooling?
Oh, forgot to say thanks to Kimchi.
Thanks Kimchi! :)
katie8753 said...Every time Bruce comes up for parole and starts offering his lame excuses for his behavior, I think of that video of him returning from hiding out..his cocky, arrogant crap.
Absolutely. Same goes for the clip of him in the Hendrickson film. A smirking, babbling babboon, happy to have blood on his hands and proud to be a top dog in a murder gang.
But they DID parole him. The only thing standing in the way was the Governator. I don't think he should get out, just to put that out there as well. He's a slimy kinda dude, like King Douchebag Tex.
Josh I agree. I'm betting that Debra & Babs will be there and send him screaming for the infirmary again. LOL.
Clem also stated in a parole hearing that Shorty was killed in the morning. Clem said Manson woke him up and handed him a pipe wrench.
Are auto parts stores open at ten pm?
Hi...everyone here has valid points! Mr. P ---- my thought exactly....I doubt very likely there were any parts stores open that late at night, at least not in the 60s, that I can recall.
Wish I could find out more about his divorce....maybe she feels he'll never get out....
And we can't forget the secret he kept all those years with that prison confession....
Suppose the killers merely left Shorty uncontious that morning and Clem finished Shorty off that night? That could explain what Hoyt heard screaming at night.
Hoyt asked Gypsy if she heard screaming the previous night and where was Shorty. Supposedly Gypsy said Shorty went to San Fran and Hoyt better keep her mouth shut.
Hoyt's claim to have heard Shorty screaming at night is maybe the strangest testimony in the entire saga of Manson. None of the killers ever mentions it being dark.
I think I read somewhere that Manson/Grogan etc. told Shea they had some auto parts hidden somewhere and they needed a ride to retrieve them, I don't think they ever mentioned anything about an auto parts store. The Manson's were always stealing cars and chopping them, so I suppose Shea might have believed that.
Ruby Pearl said Shea told her he was afraid and Pearl said she seen Manson/Watson/Grogan/Davis apparently around Shea's car on night around 11 p.m. Pearl said she never seen him alive again.
Also, Katie, one of the Hendrickson documentaries is posted on YouTube right now, here's the link:
Sunset I think you're right. I seem to remember that the parts were somewhere on the ranch and they needed a ride to get them. Can't remember where I read that.
But he should have been more wary, especially if he was afraid of them. Seems fishy that they all needed to go get the parts. Especially at night.
Thanks for the link!
It is almost impossible to believe any of the main TLB characters, but I wonder about somebody like Bill Vance who seemed to have been involved in Shorty's demise. Did he ever testify? Is he on record anywhere? Has it been determined if he is still alive?
Leary mentioned "Bill Vance". I've looked him up several times, he is an elusive character.
The Sanders book "The Family" says this:
"While the family was still at the house on Gresham Street in early 1969, an old jail buddy of Manson began to hang around. His name was Willian Joseph Vansickle, aka Bill Vance, aka William R Cole, aka David Hamic (a name Vance borrowed from his nephew) aka Duane Schwarm."
Notice the William = Bill, and "VANS"ickle.
You can find that part about Vance and more info about his activities HERE.
i THINK I read Vance basically "disappeared" after the Barker raid. I don't know what happened to him, I wouldn't trust him anymore than any of the others, actually, probably less.
Personally, I think it's more likely that Shorty's killing happened at night.
It's easier to kill under the cover of darkness. During the day, a lot more people are outside milling around. At night, they're usually indoors.
And who's to say that Babs is the only one who heard Shorty screaming? Supposedly, a lot of the girls were involved in burying Shorty. Why would they admit to hearing him scream? They're not gonna admit that. Especially those girls who were never prosecuted for Shorty's murder. The ones who are free. You know the ones I mean. LOL.
And even the ones who were prosecuted. Pat & Leslie aren't gonna admit to anything about Shorty. They're trying to get out too.
Let me stipulate to avoid confusion. I know that Pat & Leslie weren't charged with Shorty's murder. But they were charged with the TLB murders and it's to their advantage to not reveal any knowledge of Shorty's murder at all. Just play dumb in hopes of someday getting out.
Back then, they all thought murder was funny. Now I guess it's not so funny to them.
Tex wasn't charged with Shortys murder either and he was the one that killed him....
Exactly Kimchi. Lots of folks were involved in Shea's murder that weren't charged and they're not saying a word.
I believe that Babs heard that screaming. I also believe others did but they're not talking.
Hey Kimchi, what time is the hearing tomorrow? I can't read it on the report.
I wonder what Marvin Gaye Braselman did? HA HA. I wonder if he's named after Marvin Gaye?
It's scheduled for 8:30am.
I'm assuming that's California time.
I just can't imagine what her motivation would be to lie about it. From what I've read, she's in poor health and it's very difficult for her to travel to California for these hearings. The last time she did it, it was for nothing because Bruce claimed he was sick.
If it was an extreme hardship on me to travel to someone's parole hearing, I sure wouldn't keep doing it just to lie about what happened.
i see no reason not to believe hoyt.
Hoyt is right but she is off by 12 hours. Shorty was killed in the daylight/early morning.
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