Cielo and Waverly...I was contacted by a gentleman named Lance. He visited the Tate and LaBianca residences in 1987. He has donated photos from his trip. Please join me, in thanking Lance for his generosity.
As most of you know... locations and geography, are not my strong suit.
Being 3,100 miles from California, doesn't help. But, I figured I'd take this opportunity to challenge myself a bit, and learn something.
According to CharlieManson.com... both locations have undergone address changes since the infamous nights in August of '69.
10050 Cielo Drive (street number was later changed to 10066)
3301 Waverly Drive (street number was later changed to 3311)
Detailed directions to both locations, can also be found on the same website:
Also, both locations have undergone renovations.
The LaBianca address, now has two driveways, where the front lawn used to be. It's a "concrete jungle", as Bob Marley would say. LOL A heavy gate now stands between the house and the rest of Waverly Drive.
I found it interesting, that Lance had visited during the renovation process.
The lawn is dug up... and they're installing that second driveway.
See for yourself...
Waverly Before Renovation... one driveway.
Waverly After Renovation... two driveways and a gate.
Lance's Photos of Waverly (during renovation) 1987... Enjoy
Waverly from the Back....
Cielo Drive... 1987.
10050 Cielo Drive - Video Tour - Courtesy of MattP.
Waverly House Car Port... submitted by Venus.
"Click" Below for more photos...
All photos can be ENLARGED by "clicking"!
THANKS LANCE!! YOU ROCK!!!
Benedict Canyon overlooking Tate's...
I highly encourage everyone to "Click" on the photos.
They enlarge, and you can see GREAT detail...
I don't know who bought the Waverly Drive house, but they went to a lot of trouble to renovate it. But you can't get rid of the blood that seeped beneath the floor.
A tall palm tree and some Yucca was added after the renovation. Expensive landscaping. Those palm trees, if planted as grown trees, can cost up to $10,000 and up.
Nice photos Lance, thanks for sharing!
There's even a partial of the Waverly backyard...
Nice pictures Lance. Thanks!
You can see the laborious work involved in transforming the landscape of Waverly Drive.
It looks like the 2 entryway pillars have been removed and replaced, the driveway on the left repaved and another driveway added to the right. For what purpose, I'm not sure, except to be rid of the grass which is hard to keep in such a vast yard, saving watering.
The low-growing hedge that once graced the front of the house up along the drive has been replaced with shrubs and plants that likely need less water. Desert type plants.
I know the LaBiancas had a gardener, who from what I've read in the LaBianca police report, worked Sunday, August 10th in the afternoon, hearing some strange sounds coming from the house, according to him. It's from a thread that Starship did for the blog.
Refer to it here:
Well, if you have a gardener take care of the place, you don't have to worry about conserving water and trying to have less to mow.
Lance just emailed me.
"Hey Great Job in presenting those pics and I’m happy that others can see them after all this time".
Thanks Again Lance!
I hope to see you on the blog sometime!
The Starship thread, you're referring to... is more specifically here:
Oh...sorry Lynyrd. We had to make it 2 threads because it wasn't recognizing the comments after 200.
Ooopss. HA HA.
The Cielo Drive pictures show that the beautiful original structure of a French Chateau that was originally designed for Michele Morgan in 1942 was torn down and later replaced with an atrocious architectural disaster.
I guess Rudy finally made money off this fiasco.
What Sharon first dubbed her "love house" turned into her sepulcher.
Thanks, Lance, for the pictures.
katie, I agree that the new Cielo structure is atrocious. Sharon would have hated it.
From Shitapedia (Wiki), regarding the new house at Cielo Drive:
"In 1994, the owner demolished the house and replaced it with a new mansion called Villa Bella with a new street address of 10066 Cielo Drive.
The current owner of the property is Hollywood producer Jeff Franklin.
The property today does not resemble the residence at the time of the Tate murders in any way.
The only remnant from the original property that still exists is a lone telephone pole which Manson family member Tex Watson climbed over to get onto the property on the night of the Tate murders".
I've also seen where the new Cielo home is called a "McMansion", on several websites.
Evidently, it's a generic term.
A pejorative term for a type of large, new luxury house which is judged to be pretentious, tasteless, or — especially — incongruous for its neighborhood.
It may seem too large for its lot, closely abutting upon the property boundaries and crowding adjacent homes.
A McMansion often mixes multiple architectural styles and elements, combining quoins, steeply sloped roofs, multiple roof lines, complicated massing and pronounced dormers, all producing what some consider a unpleasant jumbled appearance.
Villa Bella means "beautiful house" in Italian.
Nothing like that here. The obliteration of this Hesparus is a monument to the fall of the Kracken, the fall of the Roman empire, the fall of the Confederacy....
In short...it sucked a lot! HA HA.
Thanks for the photos, Lance. I think the renovation of Waverly included building a carport in the front of the house, that's why the additional driveway was added.
>>>Bobby said: Is the view from the front of Cielo which I assume is LA.
The same view as the backyard of Waverly drive ?>>>
Waverly Drive is in Los Feliz, which is part of Los Angeles. I'm assuming that's the LA skyline, probably not just the same view as Cielo Drive.
But any Californian can probably tell you for sure.
>>>Venus said: I think the renovation of Waverly included building a carport in the front of the house, that's why the additional driveway was added.>>>
Thanks Venus. I didn't know that!!! :)
Sorry I posted that comment twice. Had to delete. LOL.
So you want to play hard ball, do you? GOOD - Batter up.
>>>> You had a relationship with Leslie Van Houten, yet you ridicule someone for taking photos of a house? It seems a bit hypocritical to me.<<<<
My interest in Leslie had nothing to do with this case. Both she and I had some very similar life experiences which led us down two seperate paths. Unfortunately for her, she couldn't escape what I managed to avoid. Leslie has to do what's best for her. I accept that. It's done.
>>> Now that things have ended (with Les), you've distanced yourself from the case, and anyone still interested is a sicko-fan.<<<<
I've distanced myself from this case when John Waters decided to use his good friend Leslie to publish 2 books (1 in paperback and the other in hardcover) in an attempt to personally profit from these crimes which i felt was a form of victimiztion to the LaBianca family.
I protested AGAINST it. I wanted NO part of it. Regretfully Leslie gave John Waters her blessings and thus i withdrew my support of her. You KNOW this already.
For years, i took it upon myself to stick my foot up Debra Tate's ass for interfering in the parole efforts of a woman who NEVER harmed the Tate family. I argued that Leslie WAS suitable for parole and should be given valid consideration, then along comes John Waters.
So instead of doing what was in the best interest of the LaBianca Family, and protecting them from further exploitation from someone looking to make a quick buck, Leslie gives John her blessing stating that his having taught in prison makes him an authority in presenting the argument for Leslie's parole bid. A low budget smut film director with cult leader fantasies of his own thus becomes my new whipping post. If anything all he did was prove that Leslie is unworthy of parole because she still can't distinguish between right and wrong.
When the chips were down, "I" backed the LaBianca Family in objecting to that disgusting book. John was only interested in making money using the name and notoriety of a close friend; a useful idiot.
That's when i walked away from the case Skynyrd. That comes as no surprise to anyone.
I can remember when you were eating cheese with chocolate milk on August 10th, just a few years back. I thought that was a bit bizarre. <<<
Yeah, it's a disgusting combination, mixing dairy with dairy, so i recomment that you don't try this at home.
I can remember a time when you used to be impartial, but now you've become a low grade suck up to anyone with pictures that might give you an edge over the other tabloid blogs that cover this nonsense.
Mark Turner used to do the same crap at one time and i lost all respect for him when he started pandering to the fans.
You seem to be traveling down that same road. It's a shame. What happened to you?
>>>I can remember when you were threatening to burn photos of Sharon Tate... with a countdown ultimatum.<<<<
Yeah, it's called PROTESTING.
Something that's usually done to bring attention to something UNJUST that someone else is doing.
I'm the only one with the balls to even take on the Tate Cultists who seemed to have compromised the justice system in the state of California.
I've told Leslie MANY times that "Freedom is seldom ever given and is something that one must usually fight for".
I fought for it. She didn't.
>>>>It seems you're always going to extremes.<<<<
I do what i feel compelled to do by nature.
You're too busy kissing the asses of people who dangle pictures in front of you and licking the boots of the tribe over at the Backporchtapes. You've SOLD OUT.
You're no better than Evil Liz and her scummy tribe and this blog has degenerated to that mentality as even ColScott had stated in a previous post.
I'm not in this for fame, Money, etc. None of this shit was ever on my radar scope.
After John's books came out, and my protests on that subject went ignored, they can all stay in fucking jail for eternity as far as i'm concerned.
Anytime a new Lance comes along, you just remember to take out the red lipstick and smear it on real thick because you're competing with Evil Liz, Mark Turner and the rest of the crazies.
I want no part of any of it.
You're welcome, Katie. Check your e-mail. :-)
Hey "One World"! Why don't you go back to "your world" and leave Lynyrd alone. He is NOT an obnoxious, cocky, "I am right about everything", "lets ban someone because they don't think the same as me", rude type web master- like 99.9 percent of them on this subject. That's why I like it here. God forbid you have an opinion, or even agree with Debra Tate on something. I don't see him going down that path. I think You are wrong about that one.
thats o.k. pvm
jim can go to one of the other blogs and be accepted into their open arms
i'm sure liz and the good col.have been counting the days til he comes back into the fold
I really don't have time to argue with you point-for-point.
I also have no interest in playing hardball with you, or anything close to that...
My simple point... was that (at one time) you studied this case very intensely yourself.
That's a fact.
Truth be told Jim... (pound for pound)... I've probably learned more details about this case from you, than anyone else.
That's going back to our YouTube days, and when your blog was open.
This period of time I'm discusing (when you were a student of the case)... coincided with the same timeline, of when you were corresponding with Leslie.
Is there any significance that?
It's none of my business.
But, I do know this:
A year or so, after things ended between you and Les... you did a complete turn-around.
You stopped studying this case completely.
Again, none of my business.
Anyone who continues to study this case, is a sicko-fan, nutjob... and countless other things.
Isn't there a happy medium?
Bottom line Jim:
This is a hobby for me.
Lance contacted me completely anonymously, and unsolicited.
I'm running a blog here on the subject of TLB, and hence... we post material related to the case... and yes... I appreciate contributions greatly.
Moreover... the photos depicted here, were taken with someone's personal camera... and donated.
I didn't kiss anyone's ass for them... and they weren't stolen.
As for Liz, Colonel, and all the other blogs... they are completely seperate entities.
I didn't wake-up yesterday, looking to play hardball with you Jim.
Nothing could be further from the case.
Keep in mind... it is you, who came here and kicked-up sand.
You've insulted me, my bloggers, and Lance... whom neither of us know...
How exactly, do you want me to respond?
I have older ladies who frequent this blog... who have a right to do so.
It's not fair to them, to be intimidated by your posts.
I have no beef with you.
I've never insulted you, when you weren't around.
When you come here with a giant spoon, to stir the pot... you force me to respond.
I use discretion when choosing my posts... and when I make a bad call... I take things down.
That's the best I can do for ya...
I leave the door open to you, out of respect.
You allowed both Katie and I, to post on your blog the entire time it was open.
I'm trying to reciprocate... it's the right thing to do.
But... when you insult folks who contribute to my blog... you're putting me in a tough position.
When I frequented your blog... I was very supportive of your efforts.
I never gave you crap.
You know that, to be true.
I put a lot of time and effort into my threads... and if you're intent on ruining them... you leave me few options, other than excluding you.
I really don't want to make you unwelcome here, but you're making that decision very difficult.
That's as completely honest, as I can be with you.
I certainly didn't go looking for you, to start trouble.
Venus, thanks for those links!!!
Thanks for your support.
I haven't seen you post in a long time.
It's great to see You.
I like your new photo.
Come Back Soon!
Kimchi, Carol, Venus, Muirmaiden... feel free to comment, if you have anything further to share.
I've turned-on the comment moderation.
There will be no further outbursts.
If you'd like to join the blog, so your comments are not subject to moderation... just send me an email.
My address is in the sidebar.
If not... no offense taken.
That same welcome goes to Mary, Marliese & Missy (wow...3 "M"s, ha ha), the 3 blonde bombshells.
Marliese I've missed your comments. I know you know a lot about the LaBianca bungalow.
Mary you don't comment much anymore, but your words are always words of wisdom.
Missy, you're not afraid of SQUAT. HA HA.
"Is the view from the front of Cielo which I assume is LA.
The same view as the backyard of Waverly drive ?"
Hi Bobby -
No..the Waverly backyard faces North towards Glendale and Burbank - you can see it on Google Earth..
That same welcome goes to Mary, Marliese & Missy (wow...3 "M"s, ha ha), the 3 blonde bombshells.
Marliese I've missed your comments. I know you know a lot about the LaBianca bungalow. <<<<<
Hi Katie, you're an angel. Thanks!
I think that second driveway carved out across the front yard on the Labianca property is an abomination! A carport smack in front of the living room window...who does that? Atrocious. They tore up that beautiful lot.
I read the most heartfelt note on one of the blogs a long time ago...about the Waverly property. It was about how the LaBianca family celebrated holidays there...when it was Leno's mother's house...and the children in the family would all play there together...somersaulting and rolling down the slope of the front yard with the beautiful view ahead and the aroma of citrus everywhere...it was so lovingly honest and pure...a family home. And then killers came in and destroyed it all. They can rot in prison forever. Horseteeth too.
Great to see you on the blog.
"I think that second driveway carved out across the front yard on the Labianca property is an abomination! A carport smack in front of the living room window...who does that? Atrocious. They tore up that beautiful lot".
I TOTALLY agree.
It was such a beautifully landscaped "picturesque", "roaming" lot.
As my Dad used to say:
A real "spread".
The yard was so elegant, it made the place look like a mansion, even though the house itself, was not that large.
That tree directly in front of the house, is some type of "ornamental".
Those trees only grow so large, and they cost a mint.
It's all steel and concrete.
It's very "cold" looking.
The house in the background, almost appears as an afterthought.
There's nothing warm or organic left.
It might as well be the entrance to a penitentiary.
Whoever designed that visual nightmare, has no "taste" what-so-ever.
It must have cost them a mint to destroy the place like that besides.
Thanks for the welcome. Nice to chat with you too.
I agree with your entire post. It's a shame someone chose to gouge up that beautiful slope...for concrete and cars no less.
That 'ornamental' tree you mentioned that was up in the front was an avocado.
I think you described the scene perfectly...there is just nothing warm left.
Hi Lynyrd! Thank you for your welcome. After being on TOTLB for a looong time I actually decided to post something on the msg board. It was in response to one of those oficial statements from the new book. I guess I favoured the wrong side because now I am completely banned from that site, under pvm anyways. Now I have to go on as my roomate with their passcode just to read the thing. I didnt even say anything inappropriate. Whatever. So thank you for "allowing" me to have an opinion on your board. ;)
Good to see you!!!!
>>>it was so lovingly honest and pure...a family home. And then killers came in and destroyed it all. They can rot in prison forever. Horseteeth too.>>>
Thanks for sharing that memory. Sometimes we forget that this was someone's home, a safe place to gather with family members and enjoy their time together. Until Manson & his brainwashed, emotionally retarded rejects decided that it should end.
AGREED: the only way any of them should get out of prison is in a pine box as they dissolve into worm's meat.
You're welcome to agree with Debra here anytime. LOL.
Seriously...you are welcome to post any opinion you have on TLB without getting banned or having your post deleted.
Looking at photos and videos, does anyone else ever get 'if only those walls could talk' feelings...especially the exterior of Waverly, and Cielo too.
I was just over on you tube watching videos of Cielo Drive and the Twin House...
and like these great pictures on this thread (thanks, Lance...sorry i didn't say thank you earlier)...we have to piece it together because the killers all lie.
There is one excellent video of Cielo Drive from across the canyon...it's a great zoom in close up of the roads, and i found myself visualizing the old Ford, driving out of there with the killers complaining about hurt hands and pulled hair and Tex laughing about his devil remark, stealing water from a private hose, while the baby was struggling to live in the womb of his dead mother. And Garretson at the guesthouse...
I was watching the Dianne Sawyer interview with Charlie...he's so full of bs....he says he went in Waverly and Tex came in, and then 'i left cause i gotta watch this old heart of mine, i walk the line.' What crap! He's a liar. And he's stupid. He thought he could avoid being implicated if he took off, but he was too stupid to know he'd be held as accountable as the killers.
I don't think it's possible to look at these photos, and not get lost in thought about the victims, and the horror of what they endured...
Very true, Marliese. They all suffered so much. I got chills when I read your comment about the baby "struggling to live in the womb of his dead mother." We all know that the baby died because Sharon died, but that was so sad to read. I firmly believe that Sharon and her baby are together now.
They all put up such a courageous fight. May God bless them and the loved ones they left.
i've probably posted this link before but its relevent to this thread
It doesn't appear that Harold True's house was all that close to the LaBianca house. In these photos it looks as if the LaBianca home is more isolated than I pictured it.
Marliese it's funny you should mention that, because I was thinking the same thing while looking at those pictures.
The LaBiancas were tired when they got home. They had gone to Lake Isabella to retrieve their boat, I think a 2 or 3 hour drive one way. Rosemary was already worried about the murders at Cielo Drive, and no telling what else. She may have even argued with her daughter about Joe Dorgan.
Then they finally get home and Rosemary goes to bed and Leno falls asleep reading the dailies, hoping against hope that one of his horses won, and in slinks stinky Charlie and Tex, who truss him up like a pig with some pretext of wanting money.
I think of how Rosemary felt, hearing the sounds of her husband dying, and screaming at the killers. Then Pat smarts off with how that's the sound she will take with her to eternity.
And poor Sharon had to listen to everyone else scream in pain until they were all dead.
Jay, who was brave enough to look a big, goofy, drug-addled baboon like Tex, who was holding a big gun, right in the eye and demand that he treat Sharon more gently, was rewarded with being shot, kicked in the face and stabbed.
Then Voytek & Abigail endured unimaginable pain as well, but I think about Sharon, sitting there listening to all of this, knowing that her time would come.
Begging them to take her with them and save her baby...and they killed her anyway.
I can't imagine that kind of horror and pain.
Matt I couldn't get that link to work. Is there a "back door"? LOL.
They died in such horrible ways and then those killers have the nerve to think they've spent enough time in jail? No way, buckos.
It takes 10 seconds to load.
Patience is a virtue. LOL
Lynyrd I still can't watch it. When I copy and paste your link, it turns into Matt's link.
It says I have to download something from Adobe.
Carol I think it was the lot size on those houses that make them seem more isolated. Those lots were so big that even though there were houses nearby, they weren't that close.
>>>Venus said: They died in such horrible ways and then those killers have the nerve to think they've spent enough time in jail? No way, buckos.>>>
I AGREE completely Venus. If they were truly sorry, they would just stop asking for parole. By asking for parole, they are admitting that what they did wasn't that bad, and that in itself shows no real remorse.
You know, I have at times stated that Pat was truly remorseful, in my opinion, moreso than the others.
While that may be the case, I have to remember Pat's actions during this murder spree.
She claims that she went to task on the second night because she "felt dead inside". Yet, she perked up enough to jab a carving fork in Leno's stomach, flick it and watch it wobble, and thought that was cool.
She also remarked to someone at a later date that since it was Sunday when they got thru carving the LaBiancas up, that sometime during the day, their family would come for Sunday dinner and find them dead.
The last parole hearing Pat cried and said "All I can do is take my own life".
She needs to dig in and realize that her life ended in August of 1969 when she ended others lives.
I feel the same way, Katie. I do feel that she shows the most remorse, but that's not saying much. If the first night really bothered her so much, why go AGAIN the second night? Was she thinking, "oh, why not, I have nothing else to do." As you said, she was a willing participant and not only killed them, she "toyed" with their dead bodies. GAG. She's where she needs to be. Well, not exactly, but close enough for now.
Isn't it a bir ironic that she stated that she can't kill herself but she had no problem taking the lives of others? I guess it's completely different when defending yourself, huh?
Downloading adobe, will never harm your computer.
I'll put the video, on the blog tomorrow.
>>>Venus said: Isn't it a bir ironic that she stated that she can't kill herself but she had no problem taking the lives of others? I guess it's completely different when defending yourself, huh>>>
Venus I agree completely.
It's hard to comprehend the minds of these killers in the spring and summer of 1969.
Susan Atkins told a cellmate "it takes a lot of love to kill someone".
But I didn't notice them killing each other. I thought they loved each other. If it's so loving to kill, why didn't they all just pull out knives and butcher each other during the last lusty romp?
It all boils down to what Charlie wanted. If he had wanted them all dead, they'd all be dead by now.
But he was using them for his ego-trip because he didn't get a recording contract.
You know, people can dissect this case up and down, sideways and under, claiming that Charlie is innocent, didn't get a fair trial, wasn't in charge, ad nauseum.
But the bottom line is, these mindless dragoons that followed this pint-sized ex-con would have done anything he said and listened to his drivel thru drug-infused brains, and did as he commanded.
And instead of commanding that they kill each other for "love", he commanded they kill "pigs". Pig being defined as someone HE chose for the offing due to his inability to secure a recording contract.
>>>Lynyrd said: I'll put the video, on the blog tomorrow.>>>
Thanks Lynyrd!!! You are my MAIN MAN!!! HA HA.
Please contact me at my email.
Carol I think it was the lot size on those houses that make them seem more isolated. Those lots were so big that even though there were houses nearby, they weren't that close.<<<<<<<
That's it exactly, Katie. The Labianca house is one of the older homes there, and it sits on a larger lot than some of the others. There are older homes like the Labianca house scattered through there...driving around, if you look carefully, you can find a few of them tucked in between later houses.
I can only imagine how peaceful and beautiful it must've been back when the Labianca house was new...with its sweeping views from the front of the house and the living room windows. Now it's full of clutter and walls and houses..and the roof of a Godawful carport!
Venus submitted a photo of the Waverly car port.
I added it to the thread.
If you enlarge the photo, it's lots more steel and concrete, as far as the eye can see. LOL
Very true, Marliese. They all suffered so much. I got chills when I read your comment about the baby "struggling to live in the womb of his dead mother." We all know that the baby died because Sharon died, but that was so sad to read. I firmly believe that Sharon and her baby are together now. <<<<<<<
The baby struggled for many minutes...think i read as long as possibly 20 minutes.
Susan Atkins, a mother herself...claiming years later, like Kasabian, she was there because she was concerned about her own child at the ranch.
There are no words...
And Tex...I recently read his letter to Doris...not a word about the baby! And he put it on Doris...i've been forgiven by God, now maybe you can find it in your heart to forgive me. Go to hell Tex! It's not up to Doris to forgive you. And confronted with her lack of apology to the family, Susan said something like they're just stuck on vengeance and aren't ready to accept an apology from me so that's why i haven't...
I agree that Pat is probably the most remorseful, but there is something hollow about her remorse...i could kill myself i guess but I can't do that...and saying that she hurt herself most of all. Pat's psych evaluation reports also mention her apathy. Maybe it's how she lives with what she's done, i don't know.
Thank you Lynyrd. It's even uglier than i thought.
If they needed more parking, i'd have rebuilt the garage and back lot of the house.
I think the house has been added on to since Leno and Rosemary...and
I don't think it had a pool when Leno and Rosemary lived there...the pool's in the side yard off the dining room...where the LaBiancas seemed to have had a little fenced area for their dog...i think that's the door Charlie and Tex went in...i have always imagined that Leno had just let the dog out, leaving the door open, and sat down with his beer and paper and fell asleep.
People can say what they will about Leno, but there is nothing that man did in life to deserve being carved up in his own living room, and stuck with a fork in his throat...WAR on his belly.
After chatting with Lance further... he did not take that "aerial view" photo of LA, himself.
He sent that photo afterwards... (after the others)... and I just assumed he had taken that photo, along with the rest.
I was wrong... he didn't.
He sent it because it was related to the area.
That photo is actually part of the CieloDrive.com collection.
According to CieloDrive:
That photo was taken from Davies Drive, which is the street just above Cielo.
Sorry for the error.
The photo has been removed.
Peace... Lynyrd Skynyrd Band. LOL
>>>Marliese said: I can only imagine how peaceful and beautiful it must've been back when the Labianca house was new...with its sweeping views from the front of the house and the living room windows.>>>
Marliese do you know what year the house was built? Or when Los Feliz was developed? I know Leno bought the home from his mother, but do you know if he lived there as a child? Can't remember that part.
>>>And Tex...I recently read his letter to Doris...not a word about the baby! And he put it on Doris...i've been forgiven by God, now maybe you can find it in your heart to forgive me. Go to hell Tex!>>>
Marliese, it sickens me to watch baby-killing Tex sit thru ANY of his parole hearings, and go on and on and on about himself. The pain he's endured, the pain his family has endured, BLAH BLAH BLAH.
I think at the last parole hearing he decided that he'd rather not talk about the case. Too painful for him I guess. HA HA.
Cocky-ass Tex thought he could walk with no effort. But he's got a lot more commodes to clean before that happens. LOL.
>>>And confronted with her lack of apology to the family, Susan said something like they're just stuck on vengeance and aren't ready to accept an apology from me so that's why i haven't...>>>
I wonder why a five letter word is so hard to say. If you're truly sorry, you don't hold back expressing that because you don't think the person will forgive. That's just another excuse.
Well, I can't really take credit for the car port photo. I just did an internet search to see what it looked like (since I'd mentioned the renovation to Katie, it made me more curious) so I found the pic and sent the link to Katie to see. She's responsible for sending it to our fearless leader. :-)
And speaking of Susan, Linda or ANY of the Manson girls' concern for their children or any of the children, I personally would feel safer leaving my child with a wild orangutan rather than any of the members of this so-called "family".
The children reportedly joined in on the drug & sex orgies.
Thanks Venus, but without your search, I couldn't have sent it. Good find! :)
Hey Lynyrd! Do you remember me? I used to come to the blog when it very first opened. Looks like things are going great! You're one of the coolest guys online! Good for you!
Yes, yes... I remember.
Wow... talk about a blast from the past!
Thanks for the compliment(s).
Stop-in more often!
I put MattP's video tour of 10050 Cielo, on the thread...
I watched the video tour, thanks Matt!!
At 4:41, I think that's the service entrance door that Winifred Chapman entered the morning of August 9th. Also I think the room previous to that entry is the room that was to be the nursery, and that window is the one Tex climbed in.
Does anyone know???
Boy for that location to be so quiet the night of the murders, it sure is loud now. Sounds like traffic sounds or something. LOL.
>>>Marliese do you know what year the house was built? Or when Los Feliz was developed? I know Leno bought the home from his mother, but do you know if he lived there as a child? Can't remember that part.>>>>>>
A quick Zillow look up on the house says it was built in 1922...
I don't know if Leno lived there as a child...
Katie said>>>>Cocky-ass Tex thought he could walk with no effort. But he's got a lot more commodes to clean before that happens. LOL.<<<<<
In one of the parole hearings recalled in Restless Souls, i found it interesting he was cocky and argumentative with the parole board. He needs to be submissive with those people...considering who and what he is...
Same with dimwit bruce davis...dumb as dirt and he disagrees with the parole people...
Cocky ass attitudes...both of them.
>>>A quick Zillow look up on the house says it was built in 1922...
I don't know if Leno lived there as a child...>>>
Thanks Marliese. I was thinking it was probably built in the 20's.
In our Sunday paper they have a section on celebrities homes that have sold, and it seems that 9 times out of 10, the homes was built in the 20's, bungalow style, Mediterranean style, etc. and they're always classic homes that were built in that time period for notable stars of the times....Charlie Chaplin, Great Garbo, "Pickfair"...
>>>Same with dimwit bruce davis...dumb as dirt and he disagrees with the parole people...>>>
At his last parole hearing, or at least the last one I saw, Bruce was a complete horse's ass. Butting into the panel's comments, completing their sentences, waving everything off as non-important.
His crime has gone from hiding in the sewers and being a "big shot" when he finally emerged for the cameras, to "I only poked Shorty with a knife in the shoulder, and I was pretty sure he was already dead."
Hmmmm....sounds a lot like horseteeth to me.
OK... stupid question, regarding the movie...
Again, my "geography" sucks.
I'm the only guy in the world, who can get lost with a GPS! LOL
At 7:40... when the camera "pans" right to left....
Is that little shack at the extreme left (of the "pan"), the "guest house" where Garretson heard nothing... but later saw a baby with 3 eyes? LOL
If it is...
He HAD to hear something!
The main house and "guest house" are only seperated by the width of the swimming pool, for cripes sakes!
You could toss a beanbag from the main house, to the guest house, with no effort at all.
For me (for that reason) 7:38 to around 7:55, are the best moments/seconds of the video.
I learned something. LOL
Lynyrd I was thinking the same thing.
The guest house is only a few yards from the main house, and only feet away from the back door by the pool where Gibby ran out screaming "I'm already dead".
There is no way that guy didn't hear anything.
No way. Even if he was listening to music on headphones like he claimed, I can't believe he didn't hear high pitched screaming as would become someone being chased down to their death.
Awesome video, Matt. Thank you. Have never seen it before.
Were Sharon and Jay in the rear bedroom? And Abigail in the front corner bedroom? So...was Abigail's bedroom straight ahead in the hall, then you turn to the right and at the end of the hall, Sharon's? So the door out to the pool...i just don't see how it's possible Garretson didn't hear anything. From other photos, especially photos taken from across the canyon, it has always seemed the guesthouse was quite a distance away from the house, and angled away from the house, but after seeing this, it was actually very close to the bedroom side of the house, and with Abigail running out of that side of the house...he had to have heard. Rudy's dog was in the guesthouse with Garretson, no?You'd think the dog would have been frantic...unless he was spooked by the gunshots...
Isn't he now saying he did hear and he went outside and hid? He had to have heard something...
Was he asked if he heard anything on the lie detector?
I don't like how the rear bedroom is situated...seems so far away...away from the front, from the view, and away from the comfortable rambling nature of the rest of the house...tucked back there...seems kinda creepy and unsafe.
This is an amazing video, especially now that the house has been destroyed.
Marliese, from what I can gather from drawings and reading about the house, when you walk in the front "pig" door you come to an entryway, then if you turn left you enter the living area with the loft and fireplace, and if you continue left, you come to a hallway.
The first bedroom on the left was Abigail's room and I believe it had a bath.
Then continue down the hallway and at the end of the house was Sharon's bedroom, with a walk-in closet and bathroom. It has a fireplace in the corner. If you go thru the french doors, you go out to the pool area and then not too far away is the guest house.
If you go in the entryway and turn right, you go thru the dining room, continue on to the kitchen, and beyond that, I believe, is the 3rd bedroom, which was to be the baby's nursery, along with a 3rd bathroom. Around that area is the service entrance at the back of the house where Winifred Chapman entered that morning.
At least I THINK that's how the part of the house to the right of the entryway is laid out.
the video was made by a guy named rick staton who collects serial killer memoribilia(sp?)i think its from a doc called 'collectors'
the clips been pulled from youtube several times which is why i posted it on dailymotion.i think it was recorded at the time nine inch nails was recording the downwards spiral in the house which would have been in the early 90s
sometime over the weekend i'll try to get in touch with him and see if he can provide some insight about the video
i'm pretty sure that is the guesthouse near the pool.
doesnt one of the guys in the video make a reference to it at some point?
been awhile since i watched it
When you went down the hall (let's say you were going to the pool from the living room), you'd go past Abigail's troom on your left, then a bit further on the right was Sharon's room. Her room had a dressing area plus a full bathroom. Abigail's bedroom also had a full bath.
The bedroom at the other end of the house was technically a maid's room. I have no idea why that would've been chosen as the nursery. You'd think Sharon would've wanted the baby closer to her. I wonder if the nanny would've been in the bedroom with the baby.
Katie and Venus, sorry to be so fussy ladies...do you know...If you were to walk straight down the hall from the living room, would you end up in the first bedroom...is it straight ahead, and then the hall turns to the right? Or is the first bedroom on the left side facing the front...before the hall turns? The windows go around the corner...so the room faced the front and the side...
Maybe you can guess...i'm imagining dirty sadie walking down the hallway...was Abigail on her left, in a bedroom facing front, or was she straight ahead...as the hall turned to go toward the back?
i've always assumed the door to the pool was in the bedroom at the front/side corner...allowing Abigail to run straight ahead down the hall and out of the house...but now i don't see that...
Where is the door that Abigail ran out of...the door where Pat left a print chasing her?
Marliese, if you're in the living room walking toward the hall, when you enter the hallway, the first bedroom on the left was Abigail's. But if you continue on straight, the bedroom at the end of the hall was Sharon's. I don't believe the hallway turns. I think it's just a straight shot.
Abigail ran down the hallway and out the french doors in Sharon's bedroom, then turned left and appeared to be heading for the guest house, but at that point, she probably was just running anywhere to get away. She was tackled somewhere beyond the pool on the grass.
Does that help?
Okay, yes, that helps a lot, Katie.
For some reason, i've always thought the first door on the left in the hallway was a linen closet, but i get it now...the two bedrooms were both across the front and the hall didn't turn...thanks.
That's better than how i had it figured...with the big bedroom around to the back corner of the house.
So it's not so creepy afterall. :)
Anyone notice Rudy didn't do much to the house...no updating. Original kitchen. Phone lines stapled around woodwork. Old windows. Pool still looked good though.
Has anyone ever seen the photo of Michele Morgan sitting on the rock alongside the pool? Very pretty photo with no hint of what was ahead for that peaceful place...
Sorry about the deletion. I screwed up my comment. HA HA.
Yes Marliese I noticed that. I think the only thing that was done to that house was floor replacement/cleaning and maybe some painting.
I wish the guy doing the video had slowed down a little in the kitchen/dining area. I would like to have seen that more closely.
I've seen the picture of Michele Morgan by the pool. Here is a link to some pics @ charliemanson.com. If you scroll down, it shows Abigail's room, Michele Morgan and Candace Bergen at Cielo Drive. Abigail's room had windows that looked out over the front yard, and then this window to the left of her bed that looked toward the pool area.
I LOVE the way the house looked in the 1940's, it was so gorgeous. Michele Morgan thought it was creepy at night. I used to have her autobiography and I remember her saying that. I wonder if I still ahve the book....I don't think so.
Katie answered the house questions so no need for me to jump in there. The hallway really didn't appear to be too long.
Links are NOT my friend today. Try this one: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPFragJNEIA for rare footage of the house in the 1940's plus some other neat footage. When you watch this, look for a video called "Thwe Summer of 1942 at Cielo Drive, Michele Morgan" for more pix of how it looked in the 1940's.
Here's the other link, it won't work for me: www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzoS8U-cmpE
THANKS VENUS!!! I love those videos! I've never seen them before.
Boy that Michelle knew how to decorate! I love the way the house looked then.
I was wondering if Rudy bought it from her. Does anyone know?
Katie and Venus, i've been watching the videos...katie, i see what you're saying clearly...at 4:01...the first bedroom on the left and the second one straight ahead, no turn to the hallway.
From the look of the exterior with the fireplace in the back corner, i figured the hall turned.
Thanks for helping me with that. I see where Abigail ran...
Venus...AWESOME videos from Michele Morgan's day! The house was gorgeous with colonial furniture. Love seeing the house so new and well done, the young landscape, no houses across the canyon. I was almost in tears after first watching it...i've watched it a few times now.
You said she felt it was creepy at night...i can just imagine...not much else up there in those days. She didn't live there long, did she...after having it built. I haven't seen either one of those videos and appreciate being able to see them...thanks. Really good stuff.
I was wondering if Rudy bought it from her. Does anyone know?<<<<<<
In the interview with Martin Bashir, Rudy said he bought it in the early 1960's for 86,000. That's the interview where he calls the property 'magical'...
Marliese, I love the way the house looked in the video of Michele. It was so light and airy, and beautifully furnished.
I noticed in the master bedroom that the stone around the fireplace appears white. When Sharon & Roman moved in, it was more of a dingy brown. I guess that's from smoke stain.
I also noticed in the video that there is a door to the right of the fireplace in the living room. I was thinking that was the case, but in most of the pictures I've seen of the living room, they don't focus on that area. I've wished many times that Sharon could have escaped out that door during all the hubbub.
>>>In the interview with Martin Bashir, Rudy said he bought it in the early 1960's for 86,000. That's the interview where he calls the property 'magical'...>>>
Wow, $86,000 was a lot of money back then. I'm assuming that when Sharon & Roman rented it, it was furnished. Most of the furniture by that time was pretty drab and the carpeting was that ugly yellow color.
I was thinking about that too, Katie. It was 20 years old when Rudy bought it, nearly 25 when Sharon lived there....and nothing had ever been done to it...by that time, I'm guessing it had been a rental for years with just basic maintenance going on...
They covered up the hardwood floors with wall to wall carpeting, and cleaned it between tenants...and I'd bet that's about all that was ever done to it. Looked pretty bare during Sharon's time there...
I can't get over those videos..nice to see it furnished appropriately for its style...(i love furniture!)
You mentioned the door...i wondered if it went outside too, or was a wood storage cubby or whatever.
i've always wondered about the other wall...the wall adjacent to the fireplace...it's never shown in photos...the wall to the right as you enter the living room. In the Michele video, it looks as though there is a counter and bar type window there...maybe a pass through to the dining room? I don't know.
I love the upholstered chairs and lamp tables in front of all the windows...can imagine the morning light through those beautiful windows.
Venus, really...again, thanks for those videos.
You're welcome! I LOVE the house in the 1940's, the furniture was perfect for it.
Marliese, I think you're right. all that was done to it in between tenants was probably some cleaning.
Does anyone remember the movie "Christine" about that Plymouth Fury? I remember a discussiion of that film and someone was asking why Christine looked so shabby before that guy bought her and the response was something like no one cared for her so she had no reason to look good. That reminds me of the Cielo house. When it was new, it had a happy aura to it. By the time Sharon lived there, it was still nice looking but it was definitely shabby and looked uncared for. It sounds like Sharon was planning to stay since she was in the process of decorating the nursery. I wonder if she'd wanted to buy it? If so, she could've gotten new furniture and really fixed it up.
Marliese, I was wondering the same thing about that area adjacent to the fireplace. It definitely looks like an opening to either the dining room or the kitchen to pass items through without walking all the way around.
If you look at the walk-thru video that Matt provided, that area is really dark now and it's hard to tell what is there. I can't tell if that area was closed off and bookshelves were installed there, or if that area is just closed off with some shutters or something.
If I'm remembering correctly, there were 4 entryways/exits to that house: the front door, the service entrance, the french doors in the master bedroom, and the door by the fireplace. I read somewhere that the door by the fireplace was installed in order to go out and get firewood quickly without having to walk all the way around the house and drag it back thru the house to the living room.
Venus, I agree with you and Marliese that the house really went down as the years went by. Michelle really loved the house and took care of it, but after she moved and I guess it became a rental, it really looked pretty plain and drab. That's a shame.
I do think that Sharon had planned to stay there at least for a long time. She had the nursery painted and maybe after the baby came she would have done more to the house to try to restore it back to its original beauty.
BTW, my favorite shot is Michelle's bedroom. So feminine and classy!!!
I love her bedroom too, especially the canopy on the wall over the bed. Lovely.
I also like the furrniture in the living room and the way it's set up before the fireplace. Gorgeous!
>>>I also like the furrniture in the living room and the way it's set up before the fireplace. Gorgeous!>>>
Yes everything fits perfectly. It's amazing how much the right furniture can really make a room.
I also love the plants hanging down from the loft area. Nice touch!!!
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