For whatever reason... all the comments posted on the previous thread (since we surpassed 200) ... are not posting correctly. (They're not showing-up on my computer, or Katie's). I suspect this glitch has something to do with the 23 page document on the thread, taking-up major space... but again, who knows. Rather than search "google help" all afternoon for a solution... here are the last 7 comments. Feel free to continue here.
Posted by Nimrod
>>>>Jimmy I have Susan's Grand Jury testimony in its entirety. She never once said Tex was in charge. Not once.<<<
This is Exactly what i'm talking about. You mean the grand jury testimony that was leaked to the press? The one that was obtained from Susan when her mind was not her own? The one where she stated that she wanted the whole world to know about "M" - referring to Charles Manson. Katie - you're doing what you always do and that's substituting a LIE for the Truth. Susan's Grand Jury Testimony was a fantasy trip - one that vilified her to the point where she could never undo the lies that she told. Susan NEVER stabbed Sharon Tate but our boy Tex Watson certainly did. The Grand Jury Testimony that you talk about is what made the world hate Susan more than Tex Watson who actually did the killings. I'm sorry Katie but the Lies don't feed me any lies because I've seen the truth and I can distinguish fact from fiction.
Poted by Nimrod
katie8753 said... >>>Jimmy I have Susan's Grand Jury testimony in its entirety. She never once said Tex was in charge. Not once.<<<
YES SHE DID. She said it in her 1993 Parole Hearin and its on tape. The Grand Jury testimony, as i explained in a previous post, was part fantasy and part bullshit aimed at playing up the Manson name.
Posted by Katie
Jimmy I have to agree, the 1976 movie Helter Skelter with Steve Railsback was the BEST. Ciao.
Posted by Nimrod
Katie8753 >>>>Why do you keep saying LaBianca first. As if that matters.<<<<
It does matter and people FORGET that the Nader incident was supposed to happen on the very same night. The DA goes out of his way to skip over Nader because god forbid people start to understand that another murder was supposed to happen that night but didn't only because Linda had a change of heart. They would start to wonder on who's behalf Salindar Nader was being murdered for and they'd figure it out once they realize that the guy fucked Linda. Then they'd wonder why Tex Watson was so hell bent on beating the stuffing out of Frykowski and Folger, as the autopsy reports clearly show, and then they'd understand why it was that Tex Watson was so angry at these 2 individuals. Don't you understand that this is part of the coverup? The DA drew a bullseye on Charles Manson's head and anything that didn't fit the mold got cut. I said before that Nader is the "Key" .... I stand by that statement. I could care less about what documents you're rummaging through. Susan Atkins Attorney from 1993 was rummaging through documents too only she, like myself, managed to smell a rat and knew that her client was wrongfully prosectuted. There's NO way that the Salindar Nader event should be tossed out like yesterday's trash only because a dead body wasn't found on the scene. You're missing the most important piece of this puzzle when you discard Nader. I'm done with this shit. I don't care. Fuck it. It's more than 40 years after the fact and Nader remains the invisible man because the MYTH of Helter Skelter has corrupted the Truth. I'm done.
Posted by Katie
Okay Jimmy I'm gonna call a truce tonight. It's late and I don't want to get into a bru-ha-ha. HA HA. We disagree to disagree. LOL. We'll talk tomorrow. Sleep tight. Hugs!!!!
Posted by Marliese
Nimrod said...>>>>>> Marliese ... Think about it ..... If you're Linda Kasabian, you're outside of the Cielo Drive house, allegedly standing guard as Bugliosi says, which is complete bullshit. You watch a floundering Voyteck Frykowski stumble out of the front door, half dead already, and Linda walks up to him and says "I'm so sorry" - A personal admission of guilt for causing his death.<<<<<<
The idea that "I'm so sorry" is Linda's personal admission of guilt is simply your opinion. You may think it's an admission of guilt, while someone else may think it was said in shock and horror at what she was seeing...which would go along with her supposed comment to Sadie, 'make it stop.' So it's subjective. Open to interpretation. Doesn't hold up as a provable admission of guilt, in my opinion.
Posted by Bob
being in charge while at the Tate house killing people is not the same as being in charge of the family. Thanks for trying Katie. Jim, I do beleive that you know more about the subject than I do. I beleive you have a higher IQ than I do as well. However your so vague about Nader is the key & Tex was in charge. I mean even stating the book HS is a LIE is pretty vague to me. There is plenty of fact and conjecture in the book sure, but which parts are you speaking of.
Jimmy it doesn't really matter WHEN Susan said ANYTHING. It changed and morphed every time.
So banking your theory that Tex was in charge on the fact that Susan said it once it pretty flimsy.
Jimmy, you're obviously a very intelligent guy and well read on many subjects. I can tell that by the way you present yourself.
Which is disappointing to me when you waltz in here and start spouting new theories like some mysterious alien popped out of the great Pyramid of Giza and whispered it to you, and expect us all to lap it up like thirsty camels.
If you're interested in people understanding your point of view you should try to explain how you came up with these theories, other than just saying "cuz Susan said".
Why does the attempted killing of Nader have to have any significance?
According to the killers in the car that night, Charlie was gonna kill some guy in the next car at the light but it turned green. He was going to go into a church and kill someone in there but the door was locked. He was going to kill people at another house but he looked in the window and saw pictures of kids.
The point is, you can't believe anything ANY of the killers say, including Susan.
In fact, is there any hard evidence that they even WENT to Nader's apartment that night other than heresay?
>>>Marliese said: The idea that "I'm so sorry" is Linda's personal admission of guilt is simply your opinion. You may think it's an admission of guilt, while someone else may think it was said in shock and horror at what she was seeing...which would go along with her supposed comment to Sadie, 'make it stop.'>>>
This is true. It's all in how you look at it. I never once took that comment as an admission of guilt towards Voytek. I simply saw it as an expression of revulsion.
>>>Jimmy said: Then they'd wonder why Tex Watson was so hell bent on beating the stuffing out of Frykowski and Folger, as the autopsy reports clearly show, and then they'd understand why it was that Tex Watson was so angry at these 2 individuals.>>>
Oh really? And it's not evident violence to shoot a young boy you don't even know 4 times? To stab a pregnant woman 16 times? To kick, stab and shoot a man you don't even know. To carve "WAR" on someone's stomach? To stab a woman until her spinal cord was severed? To raise her dress above her buttocks? To casually shower after vicious murder, while the blood smell is still in the air and the blood is still seeping from wounds?
All that isn't a personal attack???
Jimmy how can you single out Voytek and Abigail as a personal attack by Tex? You've got some 'splaining to do boy. LOL.
BTW, there's no proof that Abigail Folger met Charlie for dinner in SF. That's someone's wet dream.
This Maury person needs to do some fact checking.
Don't ever quote "a reliable source". Anyone could do that and make up anything.
Abigail Folger was a good person who volunteered her time at charitable functions. She didn't have to. Her income at the time from her trust fund was around $100,000.00 a year.
She volunteered at the free clinics around SF and LA. She certainly didn't have to.
She was a good person. And for someone to shame her to connect her to a low life, ex-con, shahman like Charlie is dusgusting.
There is no proof of that dinner.
I don't think for one minute that Nader has been glossed over by the DA or anyone else. The story is used to actually substantiate the DAs premise that LK was not an evil monster but a pig-tailed human being hippie girl who, while all those around her were murdering people, did not, flat out refused, and then when pressed into service to draw out Nader as yet another victim, outsmarted them all by pointing out the wrong door, essentially saving his life.
That's been the DAs story since the beginning. If anyone thinks there is more to it, then lets have at it, but lets get some details going to foster discussion.
That said, I believe that Jim's stance is that Tex was in love with LK or something, and that VF had raped her and because Nader had sex with her, then Tex wanted them dead. Hence the reason why 9 people were murdered?
Linda Kasabian Testimony
Manson-Atkins-Krenwinkel-Van Houten Trial Testimony
Linda Kasabian cross-examined by Paul Fitzgerald (July 31, 1970):
Q: What sort of activity did you engage in during the day of July 5th?
A: Well, first I will have to explain to you the night of July 4th.
Q: You may do so.
A: Okay. I met Tex, and Tex took me into a dark shed, shack, whatever you want to call it, and he made love to me, which was an experience that I had never had before.
Q: You had never had sexual intercourse before?
A: No. I am saying that the experience I had in making love with Tex was a total experience, it was different.
So what we have here is an admission, by Linda Kasabian, that there was something about Tex Watson that was unlike anything that she had ever had before - Time line is July 5th 1969.
This is where the close association between Susan Atkins, Watson and Linda Kasabian begins to take shape. Tex, somewhere in this time frame, is already running his own drug enterprise with Susan which will also come to involve Linda.
On July 1st, 1969, Charles Manson shot Bernard Crowe and was essentially sucked into this mess by a drug burn initiated by Tex Watson where Tex left his girl friend, Rosina, as collateral.
So you can see, based on Linda Kasabian's statement about July 5, 1969, was that Tex Watson was already acting independantly from Charles Manson and he screwed up a drug burn that would have cost his girfriend, Rosina, her life had TJ not put Charles Manson on the phone at Spahn's Ranch thinking that the caller wanted Manson instead of Watson.
This discredits Katie's comments about how Tex Watson was anything but a minion at Spahn's Ranch.
Quite the contrary, Tex was very much his own man in July of 1969 and going foward.
Linda's own words about what she felt on July 5th 1969 speaks volumes about future events especially in the case of Salindar Nader.
The DA talks about Nader as if it never happened but yet, had his dead body been found, how do you think this would have changed the equation? Do you think they would have doctored his house up to look like blackss did it? NO - The intent was to kill the guy - That's why Linda Kasabian was in the car on the very next day after Voyteck got what was coming to him.
If Linda was so "Grossed Out" by what happened to Voyteck, do you seriously think she would be back in that car again on the very next night? She went because Tex wanted Nader dead and that was one of the factors for his participation in LaBianca. Sandra Good was in jail, along with Brunner on some kind of credit card incident, if memory serves me correctly so Linda was the only one who knew where Nader lived.
I once told Skynyrd that there's no "Black Box" in this case to confirm beyond the shadow of a doubt how things went down, but there is Steve Grogan. He's the only one who can at least confirm the Nader incident. Steven Kay certainly believes it as he constantly refers to it when discussing Susan Atkin's parole suitability so it's not fantasy.
Nader was supposed to happen on the very same night as Labianca and it was the ONLY reason why Linda Kasabian was even in that car to begin with on that night.
There was absolutely no attempt made whatsoever to involve Linda Kasabian in the events that took place INSIDE of the LaBianca residence. NONE. Linda's role, as i have stated MANY times, was already predetermined BEFORE that car left Spahn's Ranch.
That's all i have to say on this subject.
A: Okay. I met Tex, and Tex took me into a dark shed, shack, whatever you want to call it, and he made love to me, which was an experience that I had never had before.>>>
Big deal. That proves nothing.
You still haven't produced any evidence that Linda was assaulted by Voytek.
Nor have you proven that Tex was so "ga ga" over Linda, that he suddenly needed to "champion" her.
No proof of any connection between the killers and the victims.
And I don't recall reading anywhere that Susan or Linda were involved in Tex's drug burn plan with Lottsapoppa.
And I'll ask again....why would Tex want Nader dead because he screwed Linda? What about all the other guys that screwed her? How come he didn't want all them dead?
I will agree that Tex was more independent of Charlie than the girls. But it doesn't prove that he was in charge of the family.
In fact, I think the guys were mostly just hanging around there for the free sex & drugs.
Just my opinion. :)
E.C.: Did the Family have any connections to Frykowski; did Linda Kasabian get burned on an MDA drug deal (or was this just another fanciful story by Sadie? Did she read about it in the newspaper or was there more to the story?)
Adam Gorightly: It seems likely that the Manson Family crossed paths with Frykowski. But this is purely speculation on my part. In THE SHADOW OVER SANTA SUSANA I throw a lot of dangling threads out there, but as always it's ultimately up to the reader to tie them together in their own minds and come to their own conclusions.
>>>And I don't recall reading anywhere that Susan or Linda were involved in Tex's drug burn plan with Lottsapoppa.<<<
Nobody said that Linda and Susan had anything to do with Lottsapoppa. You just wrote that yourself and it's untrue.
You take what people say and deliberately twist and distort the facts to say something else.
Jimmy, this is what YOU said:
>>>This is where the close association between Susan Atkins, Watson and Linda Kasabian begins to take shape. Tex, somewhere in this time frame, is already running his own drug enterprise with Susan which will also come to involve Linda.>>>
I don't believe that Susan or Linda were involved in Tex's "drug enterprise". And that's what I was stating.
You just contradicted your own self.
The Great ColScott says the following:
>>>>I care about motive not films. But if you are sincerely asking my ass why no movies that are any good are getting made, I can offer a thought- is it possible that the BUG did such a good job with his fantasy version of what happened that it has in fact become the reality to people? <<<<
Yes Colonel. That certainly does appear to be the case, doesn't it?
Also add in the fact that the news media outlets have been reinforcing the LIE as Truth for so many years that these propaganda outlets have contributed to the brainwashing of the average American idiot, who has clearly demonstrated the ability of not being able to think for ones self, and thus the LIE has been cemented into the mindset of our culture. People rarely question what they see and hear coming from the mindfuck bureaus with the 3-5 letter alphabet names.
>>>Do people now think that Charles Manson had magic powers and made people kill strangers so that blacks would kill whites? Maybe.<<<
Charles Manson never made anyone do what they didn't want to do. Let's clear that myth up. People are responsible for their own actions.
Does Manson have magic powers you ask? Good question. I believe that Manson has a special gift that allows people to free themselves from the programming that they've been lulled to sleep with. He has the ability to "Wake them up".
As Sandra Good once stated in a comment on Charles Manson's "LIE" album, she said "We're all Keys" and they themselves would try and unlock the minds of others and show them the way back to themselves.
The other possibility is that maybe the general public doesn't give a shit about this anymore. That I fear is really the case.<<<
This *IS* the case and i've said this MANY times.
Listening to the sickofans whine about something that happened 43 years is like a cry for help on their parts. They need find something else to do with their lives at this point.
>>>They would rather buy Latin Love songs cds from the Bug that get to the bottom of the killings.<<<
There is *NO* bottom. That's the problem. No matter what you tell these morons, they'll discredit it and throw it away because it doesn't fit what *They* think happened.
There is *NO* black box so there will NEVER be a definitive answer that people will come to accept.
You tell these dopes something and they don't listen. They're not open to looking at this case from new angles. They're as programmed in their minds as Bugliosi was when he peddled Helter Skelter as the motive.
It's an uphill swim and it's a complete waste of time.
43 years later, I can say with absolute certainty that nobody really gives a shit about this case anymore.
Part 2 -
All they do is try to make money from the blood and suffering of others. They want their 5 minutes of fame and it's all about "SELF PROMOTION".
HTLB has become a new kind of "Underground Hollywood" among the HTLB Bloggers where they pat themselves on the back and give false praise to any idiot that shows up who appears to be knowledgeable on the subject. It's really become a new cult like religon for those people who thrive on the lifestyles of the rich and famous.
I'm sure that ColScott would agree with me when i say that Hollywood is a "Sewer", but so is the "Underground Hollywood" called "HTLB".
Personally, I don't make a habit of walking down anyone's red carpet and I don't do premiers and i don't write hardcover and paperback books to make money at the expense of a "Friend".
I've never put so much a 1 cent in my pocket in connection with this case and never will.
This case has degenerated to the point where very sad individuals have resorted to stealing people's facebook pictures just to get their "Fix".
It's like nothing is off limits in this sick world called "HTLB".
I, for one, no longer want any part of it.
I'd like to think that Colscott has moved on from this because the time has come to close the book on this topic.
Things happened for a reason so be thankful for everything.
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