Random Thoughts on the "Copy Cat" Concept…Every once in a while (on the blogs), we stumble across the "copy cat" discussion. Here’s a couple random loopholes/questions, which come to mind:
If "the family" really wanted to convince the world, that the murders were “copycat killings”… why didn’t they contact the media/press/police anonymously?
Ya know… "tip them off", as it were?
We‘re supposed to believe, that "the family" was bold enough to execute the actual killings… but not smart enough to follow through, and make the plan viable, by notifying authorities???
It makes no sense.
Also… for the sake of discussion/thought:
Does it seem rather amazing to anyone else... that Susan Atkins never blabbed this "copy cat" stuff, to Virginia Graham or Ronnie Howard, while in jail? Weigh-in folks!
Charlie wanted the girls to pursue the copy cat motive during the punishment phase. They were all mad at Linda and decided to make it all her idea for the copy cat stuff, and that she orchestrated it, thereby taking any guilt off Charlie.
Too bad they didn't think of it earlier. Like you said Lynyrd, if they had pursued this motive earlier, it might have been more believable.
But the Hinman, Tate & LaBianca murders each had distinctive evidence left at the scene, unrelated to each other.
No rope or cut phone lines at Hinman or LaBianca. No body carving at Tate or Hinman.
They should have thought of this motive earlier. LOL.
Good points, Katie. This was just a "why didn't we rhink of this BEFORE?!" comment. Can't you picture them all slappping themselves on the forehead?? LOL
Yeah Venus...like a Homer Simpson "Dohhhh". HA HA.
Also, no coke-bottle lensed glasses, gunshot wounds or body moving at Hinman or LaBianca.
It actually seems ludicrous to even mention a copy cat motive.
I doubt they would have tried the copycat style if Squeaky had been there instead of sitting in the county jail because she would have overruled any idea that Sadie put out. squeaky had argued with Manson before about Sadie. I can't imagine why Manson ever listened to Sadie. Squeaky never would have let him do that.
Mr. P., the copy cat motive was thought up during the punishment phase of the trial in 1971. Squeaky was crawling around on the sidewalk outside, not in jail.
Mr. Poirot, Katie's right...Squeaky was not in jail...if you remember, she famously promised Charlie (and later broke that promise) she wouldn't leave her vigil on the corner. Could you be thinking of Sandra? She was in jail Friday night 8/8 for using stolen credit cards at Sears...after attempting a quick getaway in the bread truck...the same bread truck Charlie drove back to the ranch on the afternoon of 8/8/69.
Where are you getting that Squeaky argued with Charlie about Sadie...which could be well documented for all i know, not necessarily disagreeing, if you would just remind me of the source...
Wishing and hoping for a blessed Christmas for all...
Maybe I'm confusing things.
On 8-8 Mary and Squeaky were busted while buying zuzus with stolen credit cards.
That day Sadie devised a method to free Beausoleil using the copycat method. Sadie had seen this used on a movie. Charlie bit.
I think yall are talking about during the trials. Yall are saying they should have concocted a conspiracy to blame Linda as being the one who devised the copycat killings in order to devalue Linda as a states witness. Is that right?
I'm trying to get on the same page.
Mr. P., as far as I know, they came up with a copy cat killing during the punishment phase of the trial, which was in 1971.
At that time, they SAID they were talking about it in August after Gary's murder, but it was only BROUGHT OUT during the punishment phase.
Charlie didn't think he would be convicted, but when he was, he told Sandy, Squeaky & Mary to concoct this story about Linda masterminding this whole thing to get Bobby out, using this copy cat murder stuff.
After Sadie had shot her mouth off and confessed to the murders to the Grand Jury in 1969, she was ostracized and later became reticent about her blabbing, and was talked into going along with Charlie again. That's when she was told by Mary, Sandy & Squeaky to say that Linda thought it all up. She did so to get back into their good graces.
This was in 1971.
So, in other words, in 1971 the girls SAID that Linda is the one who thought up the copy cat murders and thereby masterminding the murders at Tate/LaBianca back in August of 1969.
This was on Charlie's orders. He was going to throw all of them under the bus to avoid the gas chamber. And they were all ready, willing and able to die for him, just like he requested.
Mr. Poirot, point being Squeaky was not arrested with Mary. Sandra and Mary were arrested for the Sears thing.
Marliese, the copy cat motive wasn't invented until 1971. Squeaky and Sandy were both crawling on the sidewalk with "x"s on their foreheads in 1971.
The girls said in 1971 that back on August 8, 1969, Linda came up with this "copy cat" plan.
But we know that isn't true.
Sadie would have blabbed that to her cellmates, would have blabbed that to the grand jury. But she didn't. Why? Because she hadn't heard of it yet.
It wasn't until Charlie was convicted in January of 1971 that he started in on the girls to come up with the copy cat crap as an excuse to get him off.
And they were more than willing to oblige. He was mad at Linda for ratting him out, or "snitching". Sandy said in the Hendrickson video "Snitches will be taken care of". That was a veiled threat to Sadie and Linda.
Hi Bobby, Merry Christmas!!!
Serenity Now!!! HA HA HA.
I'm curious Katie...
Where are you getting your dates/timeline from?
Is that italics excerpt, from a book, or your own words?
I've never actually seen timelines as such (in print), on this issue myself.
I mean (specifically)... timelines, as to when this "copycat" idea was first concocted.
I'd like to see something concrete... if there is such a thing.
I've always believed (as you do), that this was a "Johnny-come-lately", last-ditch, divert attention from myself idea of Manson's... (one would assume, he would be the most likely beneficiary of such a motive)... but as I said... I've never seen a definitive "origin date" in print.
Trying to learn something here...
Also, can anyone else (besides Katie) confirm, that Kasabian was offically "credited" by the family, as the original mastermind of this (supposed) "copycat" idea?
If so... this was truly, a "kill two birds with one stone" idea! LOL
Merry Christmas Bob!
Bobby, HA HA.
Serenity Now...Insanity Later.
"Why can't you be mooah like Loyd Brawn?" LOLOL.
I like St. too. He'll be okay. :)
Lynyrd, I'm getting my info from my "bible", Helter Skelter. HA HA.
Just kidding!! LOL. The trial transcripts and testimony DURING the trial indicate that No One mentioned copy cat killings DURING the trial. It was only AFTER the trial and during the PENALTY phase it was brought up. The girls concocted a story (told by Charlie) that Linda masterminded this whole thing back in August of 1969.
I don't rely on heresay and inuendo. I only rely on facts.
And the facts are that NO ONE mentioned copy cat killings until March of 1971 during the penalty phase.
Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
Is this a simpleton subject that everyone has shied away from?
It's basic TLB. Or as Jimmy would say, HTLB.
Okay I'll throw it out there.
Can ANYONE produce to me any trial transcripts, police interviews, witness testimony BEFORE March 1971 that mentioned copy cat killings???
And I'll take abject silence as a big "NO". HA HA.
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!
I've spelled it out for you.
That red-haired Squeaky was soooo cute.
Well guess what? She was lying for Charlie.
Lying her fucking ass off for Charlie.
You want to know the truth?
The truth is...that Charlie was an ex-con that got girls to lie for him.
And he still does.
If you don't believe it...then join the fucking cult.....
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!
I'm like Patty.
I'm outta here
If people don't like me fuck them.
If people think I'm nuts then so be it.
Let them think what they want.
I'm left with this song:
I am..I said.
I, for one, never doubt you when it comes to HTLBS facts, Katie.
Don't even think about leaving. This place would be like a Mormon topless bar without you.
Sorry, just woke up to see this.
I think Katie's right IIRC. But I guess we're all a bit busy at the moment to scurry off & find sources to back it up. A quick look at Wiki (FWIW) says the copycat motive was introduced by Gypsy during penalty phase testimony, as Katie said.
Wouldn't surprise me at all though if this was mentioned during a Family meeting pre-TLB, and have enough of a grain of truth to it for some of the women to cling onto later. That whole love of brother thing paints it in a more understandable lght, in their own minds at least.
Sandy, being in jail when this was allegedly spoken about, fully buys into it. It's a kind of 1984 mindset where a new (or Now) truth can become THE truth. One minute it's 'Oceana is at war with Eurasia'. Then all of a sudden its 'Oceana has never been at war with Eurasia'. Same as postdating the idea that they were eco-warriors all along, striving to save the planet.
Manson's biggest PR disaster is that he was all for letting the girls go "under the bus" for him on "Save a Mysogynist Day". So much for all the love & loyalty they showed him. It's pretty much tantamount to the 'snitching' he so loathes.
But, like Katie & Venus say, this coulda been a nifty little idea if thought through properly earlier... and they could show that CM wasn't privy to the copycat conspiracy. i.e. getting Bobby off would mean Charlie might not have been placed at Hinman's. And getting Charlie off is all that really matters to Charlie.
But who said what, to whom and when, is at the heart of the whole thing - motive-wise, defence & getting convictions, and why there can still be speculation & sneaking suspicions even now. Luckily it matters not so much, as Charlie led the La Bianca slaughter anyway. Guilty.
Well I was all prepared to accept the revelation that the copycat motive was intoduced in the penalty phase ONLY until Cease2 said Wiki states that. Wiki is always wrong. That is most likely where this tidbit arose.
There is detailed mention of dialogue the afternoon of 8-8. charlie comes home from Esalen to be told by Sadie that Bobby has been busted for murder. Sadie has brilliantly come up with her management suggestion of making a copycat murder to free Bobby. As sadie tells Charlie of the movie she saw where that bonehead motive actually worked there ocurred the arrests of Sandy and Mary. Sadie even tells Charlie that the Family won't let anything happen to Charlie.
Mr. P., forget about Wiki, forget about everything else.
Read the transcripts.
They didn't introduce the copy cat motive until the penalty phase of the trial.
I'll tell you people something about Charles Manson, in case you need to know.
He didn't give a fucking shit about "his people", not then, not now.
HE is the one who came up with the copy cat killings motive, AFTER he was convicted of murder.
He told Sandy, Mary, Squeaky, Gypsy, Susan, Pat, Leslie and any others that it was a copy cat killing, and to blame it on Linda.
That's what they did at the PENALTY phase. Not during the trial.
Look it up, and not in WIKI. It's in the transcripts.
Jesus, am I your mother???
I won't be around forever to wipe your butts. You're going to have to do some homework.
>>Leary said: Don't even think about leaving. This place would be like a Mormon topless bar without you.>>>
Speaking of Mormons, there was a bunch of poly-ga-mists on the Dr. Phil show today. Lots of hee-hawing on the "who has sex with who tonight" stuff.
Man....what a stud's dream! HA HA.
Except if they "divorce" and he has to pay child support for 45 children.
Boy, take that to the calculator. Divide $100,000/year by 12 and then by 45. HA HA HA.
Because it doesn't matter how much the "stud muffin" wants to "release", or how much they're into their "religion", what really matters in the real life, or the Mormon life, is who gets the money. HA HA.
Charlie wanted to do his own defense.
Why? Because he wanted to "stare down" the prosecution's witnesses and get them to blather nothings.
He thought he could intimidate them into a pool of cess, and he would not be convicted.
Same with Warren Jeffs. He wanted the same agenda.
Came up the same as Charlie.
If you don't know the law, and how to defend yourself, and all you can do is "preach", then get off the pot!!!
Warren Jeffs is now doing time in a Texas prison. And I'm sure, since he's convicted of molesting children, that's his schpinter is being pushed every time we blink.
Aahhhh, the joy of Texas prisons. HA HA
OK mother Katie. I'm gaining on what youre saying. There was no mention of copycat until the penalty phase. Charlie tried to blame the murders on Linda for devising the copycat motive.
But when did Linda do this?.....
...........on 8-8-69 Charlie claims. Actually that has truth in it for it was Sadie and "the girls" who got together and agreed on the copycat killings without Charlie's input. Linda was one of the girls.
I'm not sure if Charlie had even got back from Easelen yet when the girls, by themselves, dreamed up the copycat motive. Charlie was still riding in the bread truck with Stephanie without a clue that more murder was already being planned back at the ranch in his absence. Charlie should have kept driving for at that point I doubt the cops cared if Charlie had been over at Hinman's. The cops already had Beausoleil and were content with that. TLB would never have happened if Charlie and Stephanie had just kept driving and formed a new Family. Stephanie could have become the new Mary.
Mr. P., I don't believe the girls talked about the copy cat killings on 8/8/69. I think that was all made up after Charlie was found guilty in order to point the finger at Linda and get Charlie off the hook.
Put yourself in Charlie's shoes. All his life he had been busted for petty crime. He probably thought that there was no way the jury would find him guilty. But unfortunately for Charlie, his charm didn't work on the jury.
For the first time in his life, Charlie's facing the gas chamber. He doesn't like that one bit.
He told the girls to lay all the blame on Linda. Thus...the copy cat motive was born.
There are too many people who heard what went on that day who say that the girls were the initial creators of the copycat motive. That day is extremely well documented. This is one of the reasons that some people say the helter skelter motive was fictional.
Mr. P., you know that all of those girls who said that would stop a bullet for Charlie if he asked them to.
He told them to say that they were talking about it that day.
There are too many people who heard what went on that day who say that the girls were the initial creators of the copycat motive. That day is extremely well documented. This is one of the reasons that some people say the helter skelter motive was fictional.<<<<<<
Ok good, so please state the documentation for "well documented" and which people for "too many people." Is that asking too much, Mr. Poirot?
Well, for example: EVERY BOOK WRITTEN IN THE LAST 40 YEARS. Also consider Sadie's grand jury testimony. Why would Barbara Hoyt say the girls planned the copycat motive? She didn't want Charlie to go free. She wasn't in league with the hard core Family members.
But as I said earlier: Linda was one of the murder group. She was there all day at Spahns. I don't think Charlie is lying by saying Linda planned the copycat motive. She was one of the main participants. She most likely did involve herself in the cackle about the copycat motive. Sadie and Linda were the main proponents of that motive.
Mr. P., in Sadie's Grand Jury testimony she said:
"Charlie told us to go with Tex and do what Tex says. And to leave something witchy."
She never said Linda told her to do anything.
Also, Gypsy admitted years later in an interview that she lied on the stand and tried to make it sound like it was all Linda's idea.
Charlie was super pissed at Linda.
Charlie and the girls had put enough pressure on Sadie to back off testifying against him. But that didn't work with Linda. She did it anyway.
"Snitches will be dealt with"....Sandy Good.
That was Squeaky in hendrickson's film who said snitches will be taken care of. Shorty was considered a snitch. Squeaky was in Spahn's livingroom with Frank Retz and George when Shorty told George he's get rid of the hippies. Squeaky told Charlie what she heard.
Okay...Squeaky...Sandy...Brenda, same thing. HA HA. They're interchangeable.
They all look the same to me. Short hair, little bitty, bad teeth, ridiculously vampy, guns...a huntsman's dream for fair game.....HA HA.
Bottom line is that this copy cat crap didn't submerge until the punishment phase began.
Research it...you'll find I'm right.
The defense didn't call any witnesses during the "guilty/innocence" phase of the trial, but called many during the "guilt" phase.
Evidently, in California, they have a system whereby the jury decides guilt or innocent, and then the jury has to decide punishment.
Most states don't have this. The sentence is determined by the judge alone.
Texas has the system whereby the convicted felon is sentenced only by the judge.
I will say one more thing on the subject.
If Tex Watson had been tried in Texas, and I don't care if it was north Texas, east Texas, west Texas, south Texas, Panhandle of Texas, Coastal Regions of Texas, that fucker would have gone down a long time ago. He would have been given the death sentence and would have been pushing up daisies by now.
I hope you have a Merry Christmas Mr. P!!!
We'll talk after Christmas. Nothing lost...nothing gained. HA HA.
Check that...I meant the "punishment phase". LOL
Did the Family celebrate Christmas? Was there a tree on the boardwalk at Spahns?
Mr. P., I don't know if the family celebrated any holiday. Doesn't anyone else know??
I'm thinking the Family was at Barker Ranch for Christmas 68. I can't even guess where the unjailed members were for Christmas 69. Could some have been at Spahn's in 69 after the arrests in early December?
Well, for example: EVERY BOOK WRITTEN IN THE LAST 40 YEARS.<<<<<<
Why are you yelling at me? I asked a simple question, and you know...i wouldn't even have asked if you'd backed up your statement with something factual. I'm certainly not the first one to say that to you so...whatever.
Assuming you mean 'every book written in the last 40 years' about Charles Manson and the murders, i don't believe everything written about the case in the last 40 years is the truth...but maybe you do...
Okay I'll throw it out there.
Can ANYONE produce to me any trial transcripts, police interviews, witness testimony BEFORE March 1971 that mentioned copy cat killings???<<<<
No, i don't think anyone can produce any trial transcripts...no sworn testimony or police reports etc etc prior to 1971. There is nothing factual...just self serving lies and half truths that have been told and retold over the years...
Marliese, I agree.
As far as I can see, the only "evidence" of the copy cat motive that people can come up with is the word of a group of girls who were addicted to Charles Manson and who would lie at the drop of a hat if he ordered them to.
It was easy for them to say, under oath, on the stand at the punishment phase of the trial that way back on August 8, 1969, Linda Kasabian told everyone that they should commit copy cat murders to get Gary out of jail.
The whole thing is just ludicrous anyway. Linda had only been with the family about a month by that date. So they would have us believe that everyone is suddenly going to start following Linda...a virtual nobody newcomer???
Everyone was mad at Linda for "snitching". Who better to blame for the murders??
Like I've pointed out before...if these were supposed to be "copy cat" murders, they weren't done the same way anyway. The only thing they all had in common was dead people.
Aug 8 the girls came up with a plan to commit copycat murders to free Beausoleil. Sadie pitched it to Charlie. Crazy Charlie was deep into a mental collapse and raging at society for trying to take away his brothers and sisters so he decided to implement Helter Skelter so as to start a race war.
During the penalty phase of Charles manson's trial for TLB charlie ordered the female defendents to lie and claim that Linda Kasabian invented the copycat motive.
Due to the blood writing on the walls the media was the first to suspect that Hinman, Tate and Labianca were murdered by the same bunch of killers.
The failed plan in the penalty phase of the Manson trial to blame Linda for the copycat motive is of little consequenc because the jury already knew that Manson was a drug crazed cult leader who had been preaching Helter Skelter to his cult. That cult committed the murders. Multiple juries convicted Manson, Beausoleil, Davis, Watkins, Van Houten, Krenwinkle, and Atkins for murder due to an overpreponderance of crime scene evidence and witness testimony.
Aug 8 the girls came up with a plan to commit copycat murders to free Beausoleil. Sadie pitched it to Charlie. Crazy Charlie was deep into a mental collapse and raging at society for trying to take away his brothers and sisters so he decided to implement Helter Skelter so as to start a race war.<<<<<<<<
And what was the "plan?" What you're saying sounds very similar to Charlie's supposed retelling in the book Manson in His Own Words. And while I think that book is a great read, and a lot of it may possibly be Charlie's perspective, i don't think it can be taken literally as the truth.
The book states the idea came up but there was no plan...with Squeaky supposedly telling Charlie something to the effect of 'you know Sadie, she can't come up with a plan to do anything, if we leave it to her, Bobby will be in the gas chamber.' Krenwinkel was sleeping off an acid trip. So no, there was no plan.
This was supposedly hours before the call came that Sandy and Mary had been arrested for stealing at Sears, and Charlie goes on to say something to the effect that after the call came about the girls being arrested, all thoughts of Hinman and Crowe left him...replaced by frustration and rage.
So...keeping in mind that 'all the books written in the last 40 years' about this case are filled with half truths, along with the factual evidence of each crime scene not being copied...i think it's closer to the truth to say the girls didn't 'come up with a plan'...as opposed to they did come up with a plan.
>>>Mr. P said: Aug 8 the girls came up with a plan to commit copycat murders to free Beausoleil.>>>
No they didn't.
>Sadie pitched it to Charlie. Crazy Charlie was deep into a mental collapse and raging at society for trying to take away his brothers and sisters so he decided to implement Helter Skelter so as to start a race war.>>>
Mr. P., you know as well as I do that Charlie didn't give two shits about the family members.
He was not outraged that Bobby was arrested, he was SCARED TO DEATH that Bobby would implicate him in Hinman's murder.
Charlie didn't give two shits if Bobby was arrested, or if Sandy or Mary were arrested.
He was looking out for NUMBER 1! (I know Archie Bunker thought he was number 1, but Charlie thought of it first...HA HA)
Mr. P...the copy cat crap was thought of in 1971. Plain and simple. Groove on it baby-doll. LOL.
Mr. P., you know as well as I do that Charlie didn't give two shits about the family members.
That is not true. You are making Manson into a one dimentional character. The Family was the only family Manson ever had. Simplistic explanations for complicated matters are a poor match.
And you, Mr. P., are making Manson into some kind of mysterious, all-knowing demi god.
He was just a two bit con man. Nothing more...nothing less.
Do you think that if he really cared about the girls that he would have thrown them under the bus so that he could avoid the death penalty??
When are you talking about? Do you mean when they all were facing death? Yea i think Charlie would throw them under the bus. But if you mean before they were arrested I'd say they were all devoted to each other and it was a them vs us situation. They all had an exalted feeling towards each other and an incredible paranoia vs us.
No I would never say Charlie had no feelings or emotions towards his cult members. I think he needed them emotionally. If you were right about Charlie not caring anything about any of the Family then why didn't he just drive off when he was told Bobby, Sandy and Mary had been arrested? I'll tell you why. Because he was emotionally vested into the Family. He was one of them and they were him.
>>>Mr. P said: When are you talking about?>>>
I'm talking about the WHOLE FUCKING TIME. Do you think for one minute that Charlie cared about those skanks? Pleasssseee. Give me a break.
He was PIMPING THEM OUT! He was gathering male members by using the universal "V" sign.
>>>If you were right about Charlie not caring anything about any of the Family then why didn't he just drive off when he was told Bobby, Sandy and Mary had been arrested? >>>
He didn't drive off because the Hostess Twinkie truck was confiscated when Sandy & Mary got busted.
Mr. P., are you in a cult????
Sit down and take the cork outta your butt.
Peace-out man. LOL.
You sound like Alec Baldwin.
>>>You sound like Alec Baldwin.>>>
Thank ya!!! HA HA HA.
And don't y'all be talking like it's a fact that CM was just back from Esalen...his visit there has never been proven...and the Hinman detectives and soon the LaBianca detectives thought their murders might be related to Tate but the Tate detectives were all about the Canadians from the first few hours on that they blew them off.
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