Could Garretson have known Pat?
Katie believes it's possible...As most of you probably know, I’m not easily intrigued. But I have to admit, this is interesting stuff. Katie was poking-around online, researching William Garretson.
On Charliemanson.com… she noticed that one of Pat Krenwinkel’s aliases (on the “alias list”), was “Patty Montgomery”.
Katie also noticed… William Garretson mentions having known a “Patty Montgomery” on his polygraph test, which was taken/recorded on August 10, 1969... almost immediately after the murders.
Pat Krenwinkel’s Alias “Patricia Montgomery“ found here: http://www.charliemanson.com/aliases.htm
Garretson’s polygraph transcription here:
Katie’s information involves pages 1-10.
“Patty Montgomery” is mentioned on page 6, specifically.
Katie Writes: ONE MORE PIECE OF THE PUZZLE MAY HAVE FALLEN INTO PLACE!
The case about William Garretson has always been puzzling. Why didn’t he admit to hearing or seeing anything that early morning of August 9, 1969? How could he possibly have not heard what was going on?
His friend, Steve Parent, had just left his house minutes before the 4 shots rang out that took his life. Only a short while later, a gunshot ripped through Jay Sebring. Everyone in the main house is screaming. Minutes later, Voytek Frykowski makes it out the front door with Tex in hot pursuit, tackling him in fine “Texas High School Football” fashion, bashing his head in and stabbing him mercilessly. Voytek is screaming at the top of his lungs for him to stop.
Simultaneously, Abigail Folger runs out the master bedroom French doors by the pool, screaming her head off, seemingly running toward the guest house, with Pat in hot pursuit. Pat tackles her, bringing her knife down over and over, and Abigail says “Stop, I’m already dead”.
And yet William Garretson says he heard and saw nothing.
I was looking through the polygraph given to Garretson on August 10, 1969 at Parker Center @ 1625 hours. In reading through the transcript I came upon a very interesting fact.
Garretson says in his transcribed statement, that sometime in May, 1969, a friend of his named Darrell Kistler moved-in with him. A Vietnam vet that he knew. Well Darrell knew 2 girls who came and visited the guest house quite frequently. One cozied up to William. Her name was Debbie Tidwell. When Garretson was asked what the other girl’s name was, he was kind of hesitant, and finally said “Patty something. I'm not sure. I think it's Montgomery or something like that. Patricia Krenwinkel used the alias “Patricia Montgomery”. Now it all makes perfect sense.
Garretson says that he kicked Darrell out in June of 1969, and he didn’t see the girls anymore after that.
Patricia Krenwinkel has stated that when she was stabbing Abigail on the lawn, she knew she was losing, so she called Tex over to help. Tex took-over stabbing Abigail, and told Pat to go to the guest house and “kill anyone who is there”. Pat says she ran to the Guest House, and in her parole hearing, said “this madness has to stop”. Then she ran back to Tex and said no one is in the Guest House.
This makes perfect sense now. Pat knew Garretson and didn’t want to kill him. That’s why she told Tex no one was there. Garretson knew Pat. That’s why he was so scared to say anything. I think he just wanted to be done with it all and forget it ever happened. Maybe he just didn’t want to admit that he knew her, that it might implicate him in some way. Therefore, he claims he never saw or heard anything.
He later admitted that he saw and heard, but he never mentions that he knew Pat.
I think he did know her... and I think that’s why he’s still alive. I think he knows that too.
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You guy/gals ROCK!
i've also have always wondered if garrettson knew zero? long shot they both were from ohio and traveled to the west coast during the spring. it would explain why zero was killed.
Beauders, you ROCK!
Great post Katie. And a great find, linking the alias and the mention in the Garretson transcript.
Opens up a can of worms, speculation-wise.
Also, that Pat and Tex both used the name "Montgomery" makes me wonder if those two were closer than I'd thought.
WOW! Very interesting, Katie...excellent find.
Now to add to the speculation...might that mean that this guy Darrell Kistler may be some sort of a missing link?
I was reading thru some information about a month or so ago, and came across the fact that one of Patricia Krenwinkel's aliases was Patricia Montgomery. I remember thinking that was odd, because it's Tex's middle name.
Most of the family members didn't even know the other family members real names, much less a "middle name". Which made me wonder if Tex and Pat weren't closer than we have thought, as per Cease2's comment.
So when I was re-reading Garretson's transcript yesterday, that "Patty Montgomery" just yelled out at me. WOW!!
I know some will scoff, but the more I think about it, I really think that Patty Montgomery is Krenwinkel.
If Pat had been to the guest house several times, she probably was never in the main house. In fact, those guys hung out all over the LA area many times. When they got to Cielo Drive, she might not have even recognized it. Not until she got to the guest house.
Think about it. She was in a murderous frenzy up until the time she went to the guest house. She didn't even go inside and look around. She just told Tex "there's nobody there".
>>>Starship said: Now to add to the speculation...might that mean that this guy Darrell Kistler may be some sort of a missing link?>>>
That could very well be Starship. I need to try to find out more about this Darrel Kistler. Any ideas anyone?
Beauders, that's an interesting question. Did Garretson know Zero.
In order to really prove that, we'd have to find a connection with either Garretson to Spahn's or Zero to Cielo Drive.
I've never read about Garretson having anything to do with or being involved with the family, or going to Spahn's Ranch. But he did hitchhike a lot, and may very well have met some of the family members.
What an interesting connection! If this Montgomery thing is true, it definitely would explain why Pat said no one was in the guesthouse and why Garretson kept his mouth shut. Excellent find, Katie.
I'm certain that Pat told Tex there was no one in the guest house because she knew he would go in there and kill anyone that was in there. And she didn't want Garretson killed.
Also, Garretson might have also kept his mouth shut because of fear of them coming back to get him. At that time, they were still on the loose.
You know, think about it. You hang out with some chick for a month or so and have a few laughs, take a few drugs and it's fairly light, then a couple of months later, you see that same chick out on the lawn with some guy, and they're both running people down and ripping them to pieces.
That's gotta be a shock, no matter how you add it up.
if someone i knew saw me committing mass murder would'nt that be more of a reason to murder them as opposed to lying and saying there was no-one in the guesthouse?
why would'nt she want garretson killed?even if she liked him we're talking about a potential witness who could put you in prison for the rest of your life.
i can ALMOST understand him shutting up about it out of fear i guess.
but i don't get why she'd leave a witness to her killing someone alive(on purpose).
that part makes no sense to me.
But Matt, if you were a drugged out zombie sent to murder complete strangers because you had been told they were pigs and were gonna get you, and discovered someone there that you knew and that you didn't consider a pig, would you kill that person anyway?
I'm convinced that she didn't know any of the victims, but if she knew Garretson and liked him at one time, maybe sanity took root for a minute.
Patricia didn't seem to have any problem killing complete strangers. No reason to feel sentimental.
You have to remember Matt, that the girls and Tex either (1) didn't think they would ever get caught because of Charlie's "protective shield", or (2) they just didn't care if they got caught. Charlie had taught them that death was the beginning of life.
well if they did'nt care if they got caught then why hide in the desert?why get rid of the clothes and weapons?
in my opinion they did'nt want to get caught,i don't think even drugged up mindless zombies want to go to jail for murder.
and having said that yes i think i'd kill that person(bg)anyway!
pig or not.
Late May 1969
Darrell Kistler moved into Cielo guest house (Garretson was already living
there). Kistler and two girl visitors talked to someone at main house
that was using mescaline.
Matt, they went to hide in the desert because Charlie told them to.
I'm not saying they wanted to get caught. What I'm saying is, if and when they did get caught, they thought that Charlie would magically get them off.
Why do you think the girls acted so stupid during the trial, singing, chanting, giggling, dancing? Because they thought it wasn't serious...that Charlie was going to get them off.
i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
its possible that they knew each other but i don't think thats the reason he survived.
Matt, I'll just say this.
I always wondered why Pat was in such a killing frenzy that she gathered people up in the house to the living room and eagerly chased, stabbed and killed, and then a minute later, she does an about face and says there is no one in the guest house. And we all know there was someone there. It just never made sense to me.
Equally, I always wondered why Garretson said that he saw and heard nothing.
I'm just saying that this is one explanation I've found plausible. And I've run it thru the wringer many times, but I do think it's quite a possibility.
The Pat Krenwinkel we now know is like she used to be. A nice, quiet woman who means no harm to anyone.
Whether or not she'll ever be released is up to the parole board.
But I think I'm catching a glimpse of the real Pat Krenwinkel, a part of her that Charlie couldn't quite touch, a person who knew that it was wrong, even that night.
Why did she kill the next night? Well if you look at the whole scenario, Charlie chose her again. She said she felt dead inside. And I believe her.
She and Leslie weren't able to kill one woman, Tex took over and did it.
She later stabbed a dead man, but I think she was really running out of gas.
But...that's just my opinion. :)
Boy that Charlie knew how to pick 'em. HA HA.
He chose women to go kill groups of people. I guess he thought his dominance over them was complete.
Well 2 of them (in my opinion) messed it up for him. Disobeyed his orders.
Pat didn't kill Garretson. And Linda didn't kill Nader.
Maybe next time (if there is a next time) Charlie will use ex-Navy Seals. HA HA.
I'll say one more thing. In listening to Stephanie Schram, she indicated that there was something about Charlie that attracted her. That he knew exactly what to say to make her feel good.
This is the same "snake charmer" he was on all the women. He knew how to work it. He probably learned that from his pimp days.
Anyway, Pat (as well as the others) would have done anything for Charlie, because they'd never experienced that kind of acceptance before in their lives.
But I think that with some of them (Pat included), there was a limit to what they could do for him. Even a Svengali like Charlie.
I don't know.
In the polygraph questions Garrettson said the trio who would come to visit lived in Indio.
Indio is 2-2 1/2 hours east of L.A..
Krenwinkel obviously didn't live out there.
The police were conviced by the polygraph results that Garrettson was clean for involvement/knowledge of the murders.
It doesn't make sense to me that Krenwinkel would leave an eyewitness alive, who knew her name, after committing a mass-murder.
I believe she did a very cursory check of the guest house, turned around and got the hell out of there.
I know he said they lived in Indio, but they could have been lying.
The police were convinced that he wasn't lying, but we now know he was lying. He somehow passed the test. He later admitted that he did hear and see things. Back in the 90's. How did he pass the test? Through sheer fear.
As far as Krenwinkel's check of the guest house, she says that she went to the door and turned the knob and it was locked, and left.
Garretson says that he saw the knob turn, and then no more.
Like I said, Krenwinkel was in a deadly frenzy until she got to the guest house. She only tried the knob and told Tex "there's no one there". She could have tried to break the door down, break a window, go from window to window to look in, but she didn't.
She simply went back to Tex and said "there's no one there".
She said later in her parole hearings and in her Diane Sawyer interview in the 1990's that she went to the guest house and suddenly said "this is madness. It has to stop".
Hey guys, I'm just trying to figure this case out. We all know that Garretson heard and saw things...he admitted it later.
We all know that Katie didn't investigate the guest house at all. She simply turned the knob and then told Tex "there's no one there".
Put on your thinking caps and imagine.
I'm not saying I've solved the puzzle.
I'm just saying maybe I'm one step closer!!
>>>V717 said: Kistler and two girl visitors talked to someone at main house
that was using mescaline.>>>
That's what he said. But he didn't say who that was. And he knew what Voytek & Abigail looked like.
Lots of people were at Cielo Drive between March & July 1969. Lots of Voytek's hangers-on.
Had nothing to do with Sharon or Roman. They weren't there at that time.
And most likely had nothing to do with Abigail.
And surely had nothing to do with Jay.
I think if Patty felt anything at all near the guest house it was fear and not compassion. Fear of being alone and away from the pack so she got her ass back with her friends. Had Tex gone with her it would be a different story.
Also, Garretson kicked those girls out of his house. I don't know the circumstances but it may be safe to say that those girls weren't really even friends of his.
But for the sake of it I googled DARRELL KISTLER and found these two people. The first one is about 10 yrs. too young but lives in OH. The second looks about right, except, if I'm reading it right he's born in Arizona. Which may or may not be our guy. He did die young, so I'm anxious for much speculation on which family member killed him. Just kidding.
what i meant was did garretson and haught know each other in ohio or meet traveling to california on the train?
also i really don't know garretson statement to trust. when giving the polygraph statement he must have been scared to death. the police were treating him like an exhibit bringing people to his cell saying "that's the guy who killed all those peopl."
thirty or so years later bill nelson finds him waves money at him and all of sudden he remembers seeing krenwinkel chasing folger. nelson was not an honest and i could see him promising garretson riches if he tourked up the story. i hope when the interview happens with cats and garretson she asks him what his impression of nelson was and did nelson promise him anything. nelson really tainted a lot of the tate/labianca/manson/ family story.
also garretson only knew krenwinkel through her alias of patty montgomery if katie's theory is correct, he couldn't have identified except in a line up.
finally maybe the family was looking for garretson but just couldn't find him because he was in hiding in ohio. he left l.a. the day he got out of jail and was not heard of again in the public until nelson found him.
>>>Revatron said: I think if Patty felt anything at all near the guest house it was fear and not compassion. Fear of being alone and away from the pack so she got her ass back with her friends. Had Tex gone with her it would be a different story.>>>
I wouldn't call what I'm trying to describe "compassion". What I'm thinking is that some part of humanity came back to her brain for a second or two and she decided not to kill this person.
If she was feeling any fear at all, all she had to do was go back to Tex and say "there's a guy in the guest house. Let's go get him". She didn't do that.
>>>Also, Garretson kicked those girls out of his house. I don't know the circumstances but it may be safe to say that those girls weren't really even friends of his.>>>
Actually Revatron, Garretson said he kicked Darrell out for stealing champagne from the main house. He didn't kick the girls out. He says they just quit coming over after Darrell left.
>>>But for the sake of it I googled DARRELL KISTLER and found these two people. The first one is about 10 yrs. too young but lives in OH. The second looks about right, except, if I'm reading it right he's born in Arizona. Which may or may not be our guy. He did die young, so I'm anxious for much speculation on which family member killed him. Just kidding.>>>
The guy is Arizona was born in 1950, which would make him 19 years old in 1969. This Darrell was a Vietnam vet, I'm thinking that's too young. You can't join until you're 18, and I think you have to do a 2-year stint in the military, which would make him 20 when he got out.
Beauders, I agree that Garretson is a shaky character.
I have to put myself in his shoes. I'm sure he was scared out of his wits, especially when they dragged him out of the guest house and accused him of killing all those people. I would have been petrified.
Bill Nelson might very well have offered him compensation to claim he saw or heard anything. But Beauders, this guy HAD to have heard something! There's just no way that he didn't. Steve Parent had just left his place minutes before he was shot. Abigail was only feet away from the guest house screaming for her life. He had to have heard something.
Yes, since Patty Montgomery was an alias, he would not have known who Pat was except in a lineup.
I doubt that the family was looking for him. If Pat had spared his life, she wasn't about to mention that to anyone for fear they'd gut her like a fish.
Maybe we should ask Cats to ask him about this Patty Montgomery.
However, I doubt after all these years he'd tell the truth about it, and how much does he even remember anyway.
I'm looking forward to that interview.
I don't know anything about what Bill Nelson may or may not have promised garrettson, but Nelson certainly wasn't involved in the E! True Hollywood Story thing, right?
And, just for fun, let's take it one step further...many have theorized that Garrettson was used as a look out, to tip off the killers when the right people were on the property and the wrong people off...even Doris Tate apparently belived it was a mistake that her daughter was killed...
Could Garrettson have tipped off his friend Patty Montgomery?
If Garretson was a lookout to tell them when Sharon wasn't there, he screwed up big time! HA HA.
Seriously, in order to embrace that theory, you would have to think that the hit on Cielo Drive was planned before the day of the murders.
Maybe I'm trying to simply things, but I truly believe that the first Tex and the girls knew about a hit on Cielo Drive was sometime before midnight on August 8th.
Charlie took a furlough a few days before the murders, apparently to get a "fresh start", get new recruits, etc.
When he returns, he finds out that Bobby had been arrested. Later that day, Mary & Sandy are arrested. Those two events top off his rejection at Esalen a day or two before.
Now Charlie's pissed off.
Cielo Drive is like a giant hand slap in his face. Not only from Terry Melcher, but from Rudy Altobelli.
I really don't think it was planned. I think he blew a spring that evening and ordered the murders.
I don't think that Charlie knew that Bill Garretson existed. When Charlie was at Cielo Drive in March 1969, he went to the guest house and saw Altobelli. Garretson wasn't there.
When he told Tex "go to the house where Melcher used to live and kill everybody there", I think he was hoping that Rudy was home that night.
I just just have my doughts.
When Pat was arrested in Mobile Alabama she used the alias Montgomery.
At the time of the arrest she pulled her hat down over her face to avoid being recognized. She didn't want to be caught.
Yet she gave the officer the name Montgomery.
If she had seen Garrettson the night of the murders and decided to spare him.......why would she tell the cops she was Patty Montgomery later. She would have to have known the police grilled Garrettson, no telling what he told them.
I just don't see it......try to avoid indentification but give the cops that name.......the name the only survivor/witness knows you by.
I don't think so.
There are many strange coincidences in this case. I think this is another one of them.
Okay guys, I have a correction to make. I previously stated in this comment section that Tex's middle name was Montgomery. That's incorrect.
His middle name is Denton. Montgomery is a family name on his mother's side I believe.
One of Tex's aliases was Charles Montgomery.
Sbuch, that's a good question. Why would she use the Montgomery alias in Alabama when she was arrested?
I really don't know. Maybe she couldn't remember what name she gave Garretson when she met him????
I know this is a coincidence, but it's a big coincidence.
I probably wouldn't have thought much about it if it wasn't for the fact that Pat was the one who went to the guest house and suddenly backed off killing.
If Susan had been the one who went to the guest house, I might have raised an eyebrow, but probably wouldn't have given it a second thought.
Be interesting IF it were true that Pat was Patty Montgomery and IF Gypsy's claim that her & Sadie went swimming at Cielo was true also.
That would mean that the three in the kill-team had visited Cielo prior to the crime. As had Charlie. I can imagine that the various tales around the Family campfire about this place made it a prime location for CM to choose for offing some "pigs".
I pretty much agree with you Katie about the build up of events leading up to Charlie handing out the orders to hit Cielo. Maybe he was swayed by talk from the girls to do something to help spring Bobby too.
I have no doubt that some of the girls went swimming at Cielo Drive. After Melcher moved out, Dean Moorehouse moved in and Tex was there frequently until it was rented to the Polanskis. I'm sure the girls were there too.
Now if Pat is Patty Montgomery, she might have gone swimming there even after the Polanskis moved in.
That's a big IF....HA HA.
Pat's a bit of a dark horse, isn't she. Several of the other women got all the notoriety, press, infamy. But Pat was there from the beginning to the bitter end. The serious disciple. The trusty lieutenant. Even brought Charlie into Dennis Wilson's world (& vice versa).
Would love to hear more from the others about how they recalled Pat in those years.
Yes Cease2, I would love to hear from the others as well about Pat.
It's funny how Charlie called on her twice to murder. I guess he had that much confidence in her absolute adoration for him.
In a way I feel bad for Pat. I know what she did was horrendous and I still don't understand how she could have gone that far off the page, but when I've seen her during her parole hearings and that Diane Sawyer interview she just seems like a harmless old grandma.
I just get the feeling that the only time she acted totally different from her real personality was on August 9th & 10th, 1969. Otherwise she might have been fun to be around.
I dunno Katie. I get the feeling that the older, wiser, contrite Pat is a world away from the 67-70 model. I envision the pre-murder Pat to be more like the TLB trial Pat. More muthafucker than grandmother.
>>>Cease2 said: I envision the pre-murder Pat to be more like the TLB trial Pat. More muthafucker than grandmother.>>>
HA HA HA. You know the only picture I have of her in my mind, because it's all I've ever read about Pat, is that she was the "nanny" to all the babies for the "fertile" women.
But, I guess picturing her as Mary Poppins is going a little too far. LOLOL!!
Can you picture her singing "A Spooonful of Sugar?"
I'll bet Pat wishes she could turn back time and go back to working in that office.
Katie- this is an AMAZING discovery in my opinion...
So many of us read and read this stuff to find anything that we might have missed to find any new piece in this puzzle...
you found a HUGE one here
my hats off to you :)
>>>Venus said: Can you picture her singing "A Spooonful of Sugar?"
I'll bet Pat wishes she could turn back time and go back to working in that office.>>>
Hoo Hoo!! You're right. I can't picture her singing Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious either!
I'll bet that 9 to 5 grind at the insurance office is looking better and better. If she wanted to take out her aggressions at the office, she can just deny all the claims.
Maybe she could have even gone back and got her last paycheck she left behind when she took off with "Prince Charming". LOL!
You know, I read where Papa Krenwinkel was paying for all the gas on Pat's gas credit card for them to drive all over the country when Charlie was looking for his mama.
I wonder how long it took him to figure it out and cancel it. HA HA.
Thanks St. Circumstance!!
I'm hoping that I can continue the pursuit to fruition to verify that the Patty Montgomery mentioned in the polygraph transcription and Pat Krenwinkel are indeed the same person.
I feel like I've only scratched the surface in planting a new garden.
Hopefully, I'll have a "green thumb". LOL.
actually nelson was working as garretson's agent on the e program. he's listed in the credits.
married to sharon tates imaginary child and bill nelson for an agent.
that would be enough to tip over anyones canoe!
poor billy g.
hey katie i never got an email from you. i'm assuming it was about the garretson article.
also rosie tate polanski was introduced to garretson by guess who? you guessed it bill nelson.
Beauders I sent you an e-mail. It wasn't about the Garretson thread. It was something different.
I sent it from different e-mail address. I guess you never got it. Probably went in your spam folder.
Rosie Polanski is a whole nother ballgame. That's one fictional beee-zatch. HA HA.
A couple of things:
Nelson acted as garrettson's agent? Is that known for sure? I've been listed in the credits of several television shows for my contributions, but I am not an agent.
Katie, I'm speculating of course, but if there is any truth to Garrettson's claim, if he indeed made it, that he was picked up by some hippies in a white van and that others had seen that white van on Cielo in the days leading up to the murders, then perhaps the place was being staked out. Remember Sharon was supposed to be out, and her car was in the shop...something that may have easily confused a brainy guy like WG.
Also, one of the theories goes that Tex didn't worry so much about the guest house because he had already killed SP who he thought was the caretaker. And in the dark, perhaps PK didn't really get a good look at hi or even looked at all.
And Katie, we've been through this one before: Dean Moorehouse DID NOT live in the guest house post-Melcher's tenancy. If he lived there at all it was a short time in 1968 when CM and the FAM were crashing at Wilson's place. The story was that Dean was creeping them out so to make him scarce DW and Jakobsen etc made arrangements with Melcher for Dean to move up there. If he did, then certainly Tex and some of the gilrs may have visited.
Can't wait for Sundays interview. Hope we haven'tscared WG off.
I googled the Patricia Krenwinkel possibly being the Patty Montgomery who visited Garrettson question.
And although it has been brought up on other blogs over the past couple years, there are no concrete answers.
It is sugested on one site that the girl couldn't have been Krenwinkel because she was too young........17. But doesn't explain how the blogger knew that.
Oh well......keep digging.
In Garretson's polygraph statement, he said that Debbie Tidwell was 17. He said that Debbie is the one that was "his date".
Thanks for your help researching this. Let me know what you come up with!
Well all I hear is crickets.
Looks like I've got to do some comedy routines. You can guess who said it. The winner gets $100. But you have to get them all right. HA HA.
"Take my wife.....please".
"I don't get no respect".
"Well, if I got any closer to you, I'd be behind you."
"Is this an audience, or an oil painting"
"You don't know what a tax write-off is do you? No I don't...but THEY do...and they're the ones writing it off."
"Can you give me five for this? No...but I can give you two."
"Fake, fake, fake, fake."
"He's a bit of a close talker."
"The emperor looks like a big fat pig. Oh, okay, let's see, Politics, politics, politics, politics."
"My father died dancing....on the end of a rope."
"He's the biggest steel man in the country....he'd steal anything."
"I hate babies."
"What's the matter with you? I think I've got TB. TB? Yeah, tiny bladder."
""Burnt toast and a rotten egg? Whatta ya want that for? I got a tapeworm and that's good enough for him!"
"Every time he sees a mouse he goes crazy." "Why?" "'Cause his father was a rat."
Okay, that's enough. It's time to tell who said what. I'm having fun!! :)
HA HA HA.
i know for a fact that nelson worked as garretson's repreentative--he shopped garretson's story to all the tabloid news shows in los angeles.
also katie on the michael jackson trial the medication that jackson was given is this the kind of drug where the patient instantly is unconscious when given it and when the drug wears off the patient is instantly awake. everyone says what a perfect father he was how could that if he was drugged all the time?
Yes Michael was given Propophol or Diprivan, which is not a sleeping aid, it's used for anesthesia. The drug doesn't induce sleep, it makes the patient unconscious. He was also given several other drugs used to sedate him.
I'm really not sure why Michael had so much trouble sleeping, but I have a feeling that it's because he was given so many medications to knock him out that without them, he was staring at the ceiling.
I've had Propophol before. I had an out patient procedure done several years ago, and they used Propophol on me because they said it was so fast acting. Fast to get you under and fast for you to awaken.
After I left the out patient clinic I had the most severe depression that I've ever experienced. The whole world looked gray to me. That went on for at least 24 hours. It wasn't until the next day around noon that it finally wore off.
I had a follow up with my doctor in 2 weeks and I asked him what they had given me, and told him of the effect it had on me. I specifically asked him the name of it so if I ever had to go under again, I would make sure they didn't use it. He pooh-poohed me and said it was all in my head.
As to your statement about Michael not being a good father, that's really an understatement. Who names their kid "Blanket"?
This is a guy who hung his baby out over a balcony about 20 stories up. Yeah...he should get father of the year.
I don't know how he could even have time to be with these kids. He was either trying to have a drug-induced sleep or out rehearsing.
I'm not a big MJ fan. But, I do believe that Conrad Murray is guilty of extreme negligence in this case. He was the physician, not the employee. He should have gotten Michael into a clinic to wean him off all these drugs instead of supplying him.
Beauders, I sent you an e-mail yesterday. Did you get it??
Ok beauders...it's no good unless you tell us how you know for a fact so and so was whatever...
So please get to it.
Okay a couple of things off subject.
Steven Seagal has been sworn in as a deputy in West Texas to guard the US-Mexico border. He's gonna be using that Aikido on anyone swimming across the Rio Grande. They better watch out!!!
Also, Anita Perry was in tears because people are "being mean" to her husband Rick Perry. She says it's because of his Christian faith. HA HA.
Love the jokes, Katie. The 1st 3 are by Henny Youngman, Rodney Dangerfield and Groucho Marx. I haven't had time to look at the others very thoroughly. Do I get 20 bucks for getting the 1st 3 correct? haha
Hi Venus! Glad you liked the jokes. I LOVE it that you knew the 3rd one was Groucho Marx. I love the Marx Brothers.
Yes indeed. You just won $20. The check is in the mail. HA HA.
Katie, you and I definitely need to get together! Not only can we have popcorn and Dr. Pepper and talk about Jay, but we can also have a Marx Brothers movie marathon!! My faves are "Animal Crackers" and "Duck Soup." How 'bout you? I used to have lots of book about them, but they disappeared somehow.
I'll use the $20 to buy more popcorn and Dr. Pepper, ok?
I'll use the $20 to buy more popcorn and Dr. Pepper, ok?
Send the Jay stuff, I'm waiting impatiently! haha
I have no idea how the 1st part double posted. Weird.
Venus, I like ALL the Marx Brothers' movies. I never get tired of watching them.
This is one of the funniest scenes ever filmed:
"You know he's does better asleep than I do awake."
"Did you want your nails long or short? You better make 'em short...it's gettin' kinda crowded in here."
"Can I use your phone? Use the phone?? I'll lay even money you can't even get in the room."
HA HA HA!
Oh...the Jay stuff. I'll get on that this afternoon. LOL. I'll have Lynyrd forward it to you. Or if you don't mind, he can give me your e-mail address and I'll just send directly.
Venus, I e-mailed you the Jay info. Let me know what you think. :)
yes i got your email katie, i'll look up the information and get it to you hopefully by sunday.
i know nelson worked as garretson's agent because nelson loved to brag about this kind of thing. i knew nelson and he was a complete jerk.
Thanks Beauders!!! I'll await your reply!
i wish i had kept some of the letters nelson sent me years ago.
he was offering some sort of deal,when you bought manson behind the scenes you'd get the tex watson book at a discount.
he never sent the watson book and when i sent him a letter asking for the money or the book he sent me a very unchristian letter calling me names and accusing me of being in cahoots with sandy good somehow!
we went back and forth a few times getting nastier and nastier until i finally gave up.
a total and utter cretin is what he was.
also maybe the worst writer that ever put pen to paper!
i see his books fetch good money on ebay and elsewhere...don't waste your cash.
that is unless you love typos, innuendo and stalking.
By the time Pat went to the cottage, she was exhausted and remorseful about what had happened. She locked eyes with Will Garretson and told him, keep your fucking mouth shut and you live. He was up for that.
And that is what happened.
then why did he even mention her name on the polygraph test?
Matt I don't know much about Nelson but he sounds like a plain ole crook to me. LOL.
Tom, if Pat was so exhausted, why didn't she just go tell good ole baby-killin' Tex that she thought there was a guy in the guest house. He would have been more than happy to oblige. She could have just gone back to the main house to guard Sharon with Sadie.
And she wasn't too exhausted or remorseful to participate in the killing of Sharon Tate. And she wasn't too exhausted to complain on the ride back to the ranch how much her hand hurt from stabbing and hitting bones. I think if she was that exhausted she would have ridden back in silence.
matt too bad nelson is dead i would have advised you to file mail fraud charges on him. i did that and he completely freaked out and sold his material to aes-nihil. he continued selling his awful books, but not research material.nelson was a con man who used christianity as a buffer.
Isn't Bill Nelson the guy that was so obsessed with Manson that he almost lost his family or something? Then he "took the cure" and told his wife he was getting rid of all his Manson stuff?
Or am I thinking of someone else?
that story does sound familiar.
heres a link to nelsons long dead website from the wayback machine.
looks like the links still work.
might be something for future threads here.
should bring back memories for a few folks here.
Thanks Matt! I'll check it out!
bill nelson did lose his family due to his manson obsession. sandra good did a background search on him and found out he had been arrested for pedophilia--his wife never knew even though they were married at the time. someone told her and she told him leave. he then started having bad complications due to diabetes and after several operations he died. i don't know if he and his kids were okay when he died. he stole from me and we had a lot of problems because of it but i kind of feel sorry for him.
I believe she did a very cursory check of the guest house, turned around and got the hell out of there.
That's not true. years later, she stated that she did a thorough search and didn't find anyone. She said that if someone was in there, he'd be dead today.
Of course, all these people are liars, which is one reason they are not eligible for parole.
Patty Montgomery Talks About the Manson Murders
Just came across this clip.
Wondering if anyone else has come across this.
Darrell Kistler was my father and the women who was there named Patty is my mother and it wasn't Patty Montgomery, it was Patricia Maloney. Now after marrying my father it is Patricia Kistler. I have talked to my mother about this and she told me about going there several times with my father. My father died when I was 6 so I never talked to him about it but my mother told me about my Dad being friends with Garretson and that he had stayed there for a bit. She also told me that she went there several times with my Dad and her friend to party.
my name is Rebecca if you have questions about the Patty that visited the guest house with Darrell Kistler email@example.com
In his 1974 book, Tex states that no one went to the guest house and didn't even think about it because they were a bit "busy." He says the book is everything he remembers about that night, so who knows?
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