How about a thread about the odd relationship between Sharon, Jay and Roman?
For instance, did Roman really care that Sharon and Jay were still close? Was he relieved that Sharon was busy and not paying attention to his shenanigans? Or was it something else? One book I read (a Warren Beatty bio) implied that there was a menage a trois between the 3 of them. I'm certainly not saying that's true, but it's a point to ponder. I think you can see that this topic has a lot of possibilites. Would Sharon and Jay have gotten back together in the future? Would her marriage to Roman have worked out (doubtful) and she and Jay have gone their own ways?
Hi Venus! Thanks for the thread idea!
Ever since I've been following this case, I always have had an "eyebrow raised" at the relationship between Sharon, Roman & Jay.
I thought it was way too bizarre that Jay went all the way to England to "okay" the guy Sharon dumped him for. The only reason I can come up with is that he wanted to maintain his "hold" on Sharon, even as a third party.
And evidently Roman went along with all this "closeness" between Sharon & Jay. He knew that when he was away that Jay spent most of his time at HIS house with HIS wife.
Maybe they were swingers???
On the surface, Jay just seems to be a nice everyday guy, but if you start digging into his life, it starts getting pretty weird.
I read a long story about some girl that went to his house and she went into great detail about all the "props" he liked to use in sex. I'll see if I can find that and I'll post a link.
You know there was (still is?) a tape of Polanski right after the murders, and he discussed Jay and the fact that he was in bad shape financially, that he owed his dentist several thousand dollars.
It sounded like he was blaming Jay in a way for what happened.
who knows what went on with all these people back then.
peoples morals(or at least rich and famous peoples morals)seem to have been alot lower back then.
i don't think the press was gunning for dirt on people the way they do these days(just look at the stuff jfk got away with)and the studios protected their stars from bad press in the 50s and 60s.
i don't care how much of an angel sharon tates made out to be if she was married to roman polanski i'm sure some weird stuff was going on.
You're right about stuff going on back then that was either accepted or hidden. Lots of secrets in Hollywood that were buried.
There was definitely something going on between Jay & Sharon. I think he would have done anything to hang onto her, and she probably wanted him around because it made her feel good to be adored.
I really think that Sharon was planning on divorcing Roman after the baby came. She had talked to her mother about this.
I think she married him to further her career, but with the baby coming, she wasn't that interested in her career anymore.
I don't know if she was planning a life with Jay or not. Maybe the same kind of life they already had...unattached.
I think Jay knew that Roman and Sharon were having problems, so he hung around in case he was needed to pick up the pieces.
Carol, you're probably very right about that.
I'm sure that Sharon confided in Jay about Roman's infidelity. Cried on his shoulder many times. He was probably just riding that marriage out.
It's hard to understand why he didn't just move on when she dumped him for Roman, but maybe he just couldn't let go. Don't know.
In answer to Venus' question, I don't think that
Jay hanging around was hampering the Polanksi's marriage.
I think it was simply Roman's indifference to monogamy that would have broken the camel's back eventually. He was even screwing her friends. What a jerk!
As to a "menage", that's pretty creepy, but I don't think I'd put it past them. LOL.
I was wondering what happened to you. Great to see you!!!
Thanks so much for rattling my brain. You're exactly right. I read that on Cat's site because you mentioned it.
I'll have to go look that up.
I was just thinking yesterday...
"I wonder where Bob is??"
I was going to ask about you here, on the blog... but then decided to give it a little longer, in case you were vacationing, or involved with some commitments.
Anyway... great to see you back!!
"It's hard to understand why he didn't just move on when she dumped him for Roman, but maybe he just couldn't let go. Don't know." - katie
Hi, katie! I think Jay did move on - somewhat. He certainly had his share of girlfriends after Sharon. But I think his heart was always with Sharon and I believe he saw an opportunity in the future because of the sad state of the Polanski marriage.
I think that Jay stayed close with Sharon's parents after he and Sharon split up. I've read where he stayed at their house when he went to San Francisco.
I'm thinking that Sharon's parents thought a lot more of Jay than they ever did of Roman.
I look at the footage of Sharon's funeral and various people are practically holding Roman up and then you see Doris, Patti & Debra looking very sad but at least acting appropriately at such a somber occasion.
Maybe I'm being too hard on Roman, but I've always felt that he was "upstaging" everyone that day.
I know that Debra defends Roman, but I just can't imagine Doris thinking a whole lot of him. She knew he was making her daughter unhappy.
Katie, Katie, katie, Katie, we need to have out evening of popcorn and Dr. Peppers soon. Unfotunately, my popcorn popper burned last night and I have to get a new one. Maybe you have one we can use??
I also think that Roman was upstaging everyone at the funeral. It was like he didn't seem to realize or care that her family was also grief-stricken at THEIR loss.
Why did Roman feel the need to being up Jay's alleged dentist bill? Even if it's true, it doesn't prove anything. Perhaps Jay's business manager wasn't paying bills properly? No matter what, why did Roman feel the need to mention it?
I think it's very obvious that Sharon's parents thought a lot of Jay. They attended the opening of his San Francisco salon, after the murders, Doris learned to do hair at his salon and made it clear that it was his method. On Sat., august 9th, Jay was going to check on his salon in San Francisco and was planning to have a meal with Paul Tate. Obviously, there was a closeness there.
Glad to see you! I've got some Orville Redenbacher Pour Over Butter Popcorn in the microwave right now. Should be done in about 5 minutes. Lots of butter and salt. And I just bought a 12-pack of Dr. Pepper today. HA HA.
I will give my opinion on Roman, which I've given before (and I think it's not too popular) but I think he may have had something to do with the murders.
Sharon was sick of his unfaithfulness. She found out about him and Michelle Phillips right before her murder.
Doris said that Sharon had told her she was going to divorce Roman after the baby was born.
So....that left Roman with child support and alimony. It's all just TOO convenient that all that went away in 45 minutes time.
I agree, why mention about Jay owing money to the dentist. So what?
And why all the theatrics at the funeral? To throw the police off?
He admits that a couple of days after the funeral he was trying to bang a couple of blondes.
He states in interviews that "Sha-don" was the only one who truly loved him.
Sounds like one of his scripts. The guy is pathetic.
I'm just wondering if Roman put the word out that he wanted his wife dead, and it went to several different people, and ended up at Spahn's Ranch.
That's really not too hard to imagine. Maybe Charlie made some dough off of it. He needed it.
Maybe Abigail & Voytek were collateral damage. Maybe not.
katie, maybe Roman was so devastated at Sharon's funeral because of the guilt he felt over his adultery. Venus, in the Beatty bio you read, was it Warren Beatty himself who said there was a menage a trois with Sharon, Roman, and Jay? BTW, great thread, Venus.
>>>>"Katie, maybe Roman was so devastated at Sharon's funeral because of the guilt he felt over his adultery".<<<<
I've listened to audio footage of Roman (hooked-up to a lie detector)... being questioned by police shortly after the murders.
The audio footage was on the blog here at one time... but unfortunately... we lost the footage (because it was deleted as part of the Backporch closing).
At any rate...
The policeman asks Roman:
"Is it true that you dated two airline stewardesses within 48 hours of Sharon's death"?
"Yes... well... if you wanna call it dates... I mean, I f#cked them".
Evidently, if Roman felt any guilt... it didn't set-in until the actual funeral day.
I could probably still dig-up the audio footage if you really wanted to listen to it... but, it'd be a lot easier, if you just took my word for it. LOL
Maybe I'll take a look at some point, if I have some free time.
It's both shocking and disgusting hearing Roman actually state that stuff on a lie detector... especially since Sharon was about to give birth.
This photo has always made me believe that Jay and Sharon were definitely still doing the "horizontal bop".
I mean... c'mon, how "irregular" is this situation??
Two ex-lovers (well supposedly ex)... posing in their underwear... the woman pregnant and the guy holding a heineken??
What married man would be cool with this situation??
I really think Sharon and Roman had an "open" relationship going-on.
It seems everyone... was banging everyone... back in those days.
Here is the audio of the Roman's lie detector interview. It's king of hard to understand him.
I just don't see Roman as a caring, grieving husband or father-to-be.
Oops....meant to say "KIND of hard to understand him. LOL.
Romans bizzare behavior and the strange parallels between his movie Rosemary's Baby and Sharon's murder have been a question mark in my mind for a long time.
It's well documented that the detetives investigating the crimes were less than competent.......overlooking even the most obvious clues from the start.
Maybe the elusive answers as to motive were closer to home than anyone ever thought.
don't worry about the mistake katie...i'm sure'king of hard'is how roman feels about himself
I wonder if the detectives investigated Roman at all. Did they check to see if any large sums of cash had been withdrawn recently? Did they check his activities and contacts prior to the murders?
I don't really remember him saying in any interview at any time, that he was grief stricken about his child being murdered.
>>>don't worry about the mistake katie...i'm sure'king of hard'is how roman feels about himself>>>
HA HA HA HA HA!!!
Thanks for bringing up the topic.
The unanswered questions and possibilities surrounding Roman in the crime is fascinating to me.
"I could probably still dig-up the audio footage if you really wanted to listen to it... but, it'd be a lot easier, if you just took my word for it. LOL" - Lynyrd
I believe you, Lynyrd; you don't have to look for the audio! I guess I'm basing my opinion on the fact that the men I've seen who are the most devastated at their wives' funerals are the ones who cheated on them during most of their marriages.
Sbuch, I've always thought it was a possibility that Roman was involved in the murders. He had everything to gain and nothing to lose from them. If he thought Sharon was leaving him for Jay, and he was going to be "supporting them" with alimony & child support, he might have viewed that as a virtual anchor for years.
Roman didn't want children. He wasn't involved in the planning of the birth like Sharon was. He didn't join her in reading all the books on child birth, naming a child, raising a child, buying baby furniture, hiring a nanny, etc. Sharon did all that on her own.
I never got the "warm and fuzzy" feeling that he even cared about Sharon. And I don't think he cared that much about her death either.
I can't connect Roman to Charles Manson, but I'll bet Roman knew a lot of people in Europe that could be connected to Scientology, connecting him to Bruce, connecting him to Charles.
Not to say that Roman ever talked to Manson, but maybe the job was passed down.
Roman knew Sharon and Jay would be there that night. He knew he was running out of time. He was supposed to return to CA 2 days later.
I know I'm reaching here....but it's a possibility. :)
Don't forget....Scott Peterson appeared to be upset by his wife's disappearance at the "Lacy rally". But in reality, he was talking to and lying to his new girlfriend on the phone. :)
Katie, that Orville microwave popcorn is delish, so is the Pop Secret Homestyle (tastes just like what we used to make on top of the stove!)
I'd like to know how Roman found out about Jay's alleged dental bill!
Did you ever notice that Roman was the one who brought up Jay's bedroom habits? I mean, who cares? By all accounts, the women were willing so that's okey-dokey with me. If force was involved, well, not so much.
I'd hate to think that Roman was involved, but it's certainly possible since stranger things have happened. WHY did he tell Sharon that he had to finish the script in London and then "suddenly" he decided that he could finish it in Los Angeles? That's pretty bizarre.
I just don't think he relly loved Sharon. Maybe he did, but not in the right way. He had ZERO respect for her feelings. WHY did she marry him anyway? To better her career or did she honestly think he'd change?
The guy wanted to be an actor, I think he gave his best performance at the press conference and the funeral. Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but I just don't buy it.
Scott Peterson. what a kook. He supposedly didn't want kids which is why he killed his wife and unborn son. So, why did he have an affair with a single mom? Did he think they had a future?
I'd hate to think that Roman was involved in the murders, but like you said, I don't think he really cared about her, not like a man should love his wife anyway, and his whole way of life was just a slap in her face. If I were her, I'd be embarrassed by him.
He has made comments from time to time that Sharon told him when they first got together that she wasn't going to try to change him, and then proceeded to try to "reform" him. That didn't set well with him at all.
I don't get it why guys like that even get married. Why don't they just stay single?
Scott Peterson was one CREEPY guy. He lied more than Casey Anthony, if that's possible.
I always wondered that too....if he hated kids, why hook up with a woman that had one???
Doesn't make any sense. Loser.
I agree, Roman appeared to mourn for Sharon and the others but didn't seem in grief over the loss of his infant son.
It's not like he found out she was pregnant a week before the murders........she could have had that baby any minute.
He was standing at the door of fatherhood.
It just seems strange.
Then there's the wierd parallels with Rosemary's Baby.
The plot of the movie being a struggling actor sacrificing his wife/baby for success.
Coincidence? Probably.....but after years of intrique with this case, I still wonder.
I found it also very odd that the name of one of the victims the following night was Rosemary.
Rosemary is not a common name.
What are the odds?
Maybe Venus or katie knows the answer to this: Didn't Jay tell Sharon's parents that she was pregnant? Why wouldn't she - and Roman - tell them? I always thought that was strange (if it's true). Please forgive me if this has already been discussed.
>>>sbuch said: I found it also very odd that the name of one of the victims the following night was Rosemary.
Rosemary is not a common name.
What are the odds?>>>
That is odd. I didn't think of that.
>>>Carol said: Didn't Jay tell Sharon's parents that she was pregnant? Why wouldn't she - and Roman - tell them?>>>
Carol I hadn't heard that. I would think that Sharon would be overjoyed to tell her parents that. I do know that she hid her pregnancy from Roman for a few months because she was afraid he'd insist that she get an abortion. Maybe she confided to Jay that she was pregnant and he blabbed it before she could tell her parents.
I really don't know.
Let me try this again. I have no idea why Roman would get married since he had no plan to change his way of life. I think Sharon became more mature with her pregnancy and started thinking about the future. Did she want to raise a baby in that sort of situation? I don't think it's something that most women would want to do, if only for the reason that it sets a bad example for the child. I wish we could see into the future that might've been, would she have kicked him to the curb or would he have stepped up to the plate with the baby's arrival? I'm betting it would be the former. She had to know that everyone knew he was cheating on her and this made her look foolish for tolerating it.
As for the story about Jay revealing her pregnancy to her parents, I've heard it too. It doesn't seem to make much sense as this was her first pregnancy and their first grandchild. You'd think she would've wanted to tell it to them.
I think I know where CarolMR is going with this. There have been rumors that Jay might've been the father of the baby. One example is that Kirk Douglas said this in his autobiography many years ago. I'm certainly not saying that it's true, but it definitely would explain a lot.
Venus, I don't think Roman would have changed. A leopard doesn't change its spots.
I think that Sharon had definitely decided to get out of the whacky world of a polish director.
Unlike Roman, she was crazy about parenthood. She was thinking of nothing but that. I don't think she would have allowed that lurid world to affect her baby.
As far as the baby being Jay's....I don't know how she or he would have known that without a paternity test. Unless she wasn't having sex with Roman around December of 1968 and she was having sex with Jay.
Where were they in December of 1968 anyway??? Europe?
Venus, I guess I was implying that Jay may be the father of Sharon's baby. But, truth be told, I think that's a huge leap. For one thing, I think Jay would have insisted that Sharon leave Roman if he, Jay, were indeed the daddy. But, as you and others have said, it would explain a lot if Jay were the baby's father. As for why Roman got married (his second marriage BTW), in his autobiography, Roman by Polanski, he said that Sharon was very Catholic when it came to marriage. She was tired of living together withuot benefit of marriage and he didn't want to lose her. I read his book many years ago, but that's the way I remember it.
Yes, I remember Roman sayiing that about why they got married. It was just a cop-out, an excuse. it's like he was saying "this is what she wanted so now she's stuck with it." As far as her Catholic mentality, doesn't it strike anyone as pretty weird that NO ONE from her family attended her wedding which was a civil ceremony. They could've gotten married in the Catholic church, it's possible.
I don't know if Jay could've been the father or not. It wouldn't have been determined until after the baby was born. If he was, it sure would've explained a lot such as Roman's lack of excitement about the baby.
One of my friend's once said, "Even if Jay wasn't the father of the baby, he would've ended up being the daddy." Now, maybe she meant that they would've ended up getting married or just that Jay would've stepped in and been the one to take the kid to things like his first baseball game.
I have no idea where Sharon was in December of 1968, but I'm guessing she was in Los Angeles because I've never heard of her being elsewhere during that time period. I wonder if she spent the holidays with her parents?
Venus, I don't think Roman was interested in marrying in a Catholic church. He just wanted a "quickie mod ceremony" and Sharon went along with it.
I don't think it was guilt about infidelity that made him crumble at Sharon's funeral. He didn't feel any guilt while she was alive.
I really think that if Sharon had lived she would have left him. Now whether she would have married Jay, I don't know. She didn't want to marry him the first time.
I wonder about Roman's life after Sharon was killed. He remarried and had a couple of kids. Does he still screw around on this wife? Does he even like those kids? I don't know.
I can't believe that Debra has kept up with Roman after all that happened. I've seen pictures of her with his new wife, like they're BFF's.
Venus, I've never understood why Sharon's family did not attend her wedding. This was their beautiful eldest daughter getting married! Roman and Sharon certainly could have flown them to London for the ceremony. Very strange. I don't think anyone has ever addressed this, not even Greg King. katie, I remember seeing Roman on TV at a press conference shortly after Sharon's funeral and he said that she eventually wanted to get married in the Catholic Church. He didn't care to, but he was willing to do it to make her happy. Who knows if that would have ever happened?
Carol I think you're dreaming.
Roman didn't give 2 shits about Sharon's feelings. Nor did he care about her parents' feelings.
All he cared about was himself.
"Carol I think you're dreaming." - katie
Well, I know I'm not dreaming about the press conference I saw! I know what you mean, katie. I actually agree with you that Roman didn't care too much about Sharon's feelings. I assume he said what he did at that press conference because...well, maybe to make it appear that Sharon's feelings were important to him. I don't know. Roman is a strange duck. I think age has mellowed him. From everything I've heard and read about him, he is crazy about his third wife, has been faithful, and is an adoring father. I'm glad he's changed. I wish he could have been this way with Sharon.
>>>Carol said: From everything I've heard and read about him, he is crazy about his third wife, has been faithful, and is an adoring father. I'm glad he's changed. I wish he could have been this way with Sharon.>>>
I have a feeling that if he had really cared about Sharon and took care of her like he should have, she would still be alive, along with baby Paul.
Carol and Katie, I've never seen Roman's press conference claiming that Sharon wanted to get married in the Catholic church eventually. It certainly could be true, but I think it seems like Roman can change things around to suit him.
I don't understand the closeness (if it's true) between Debra and Roman and his family. Are they genuinely close or is this more of a publicity thing? Debra and Emmanuelle were hand in hand during Roman's legal troubles a couple of years ago. Was it real or just for show?
It does seem like Roman has settled down and is happy. Maybe he waited until the time was right for him to do so. He shouldn't have married Sharon when he was not ready for it. Who knows how different their lives could've been?
As for whether or not Sharon would've maried Jay, we'll certainly never know. They definitely had a bond and I'm sure they would've remained close, no matter what might've happened in their lives.
I wonder if it's true that she didn't want to marry Jay. She said that after she was with Roman. She and Jay were supposedly engaged so they must've been making plans for the future. It's pretty weird that she claimed that she didn't want to get married because she would've given up her career after her marriage, but when she married Roman, she continued to work because he didn't want a "housewife." Was that her decision or his?
When she and Jay first started dating, he was still married although he wa sin the process of getting a divorce. I wonder if he really wanted to get remarried that quickly?
Venus, I'm not sure who ended Jay's and Sharon's engagement. But I have a feeling that Sharon did.
The reason I say that is because if he had ended it, he would have moved on.
I've read Roman's words that "he didn't want a housewife", and that he wanted her to keep working.
I'm sure it's because he wanted some more income coming in.
I don't understand Debra's closeness to Roman or his new wife either. It's another slap in Sharon's face. But then....I don't understand Debra at all.
"I have a feeling that if he had really cared about Sharon and took care of her like he should have, she would still be alive, along with baby Paul." - katie
I agree. He should have been home with his wife. I don't know if that would have prevented the murders, but it might have.
Venus, I was under the impression that Sharon was still engaged to Jay when she left for London to make THE FEARLESS VAMPIRE KILLERS. She fell madly in love with Roman and broke her engagement to Jay. Jay then flew to London to make sure Roman was worthy of Sharon.
I just read this on the gossip site www.crazydaysandnights.net:
"Last night Roman Polanski got a standing ovation at the Zurich Film Festival. It is the same festival he was on his way to attend two years ago when Swiss police arrested him and then held him for 8 months before finally agreeing he could not be extradited to the United States. While under house arrest, Roman found the time to make a documentary about his life and included in that documentary is a discussion of the events surrounding his conviction for having unlawful sex with a minor. He basically says that it was not his fault and he blames the American judicial system for his conviction. The guy pleaded guilty. He said, "I did it." How is that not his fault? He did apologize to the woman he assaulted who was 13 at the time. Think about that. She was 13 years old. How would you like your 13 year old daughter to have sex with an old man and then blame it on her and everyone else but himself. Oh, and you know he was having sex with way more than just this one teen. She is just the only one who had the guts to come forward against a powerful Hollywood director."
>>>Carol said: I agree. He should have been home with his wife. I don't know if that would have prevented the murders, but it might have.>>>
I guess what I meant was if he had taken care of her like he should have, she wouldn't have been associating with Voytek & Gibby with him gallivanting around Europe. They would have been together. Which also might have kept Jay & Sharon from having so much "alone time" together. I just don't think he cared that much about her.
>>>The guy pleaded guilty. He said, "I did it." How is that not his fault?>>>
I totally agree. How could it have been anyone's fault but his? For Polanski to blame anyone else is ridiculous. It's like his blaming everyone else for Sharon's death. Why not look in the mirror and take some responsibility.
Although I find Roman Polanski to be a completely wierd dude, I find it hard to, if not really sympathize with him then at least not hate him with the vitriol of some of the people here on this blog and others.
A holocaust survivor who lost his mother in the ghetto...
A husband who lost his wife and unborn child in one of the most heinous crimes ever...
His actions with Samantha Geimer are reprehensible, but I also believe it shows him suffering from serious mental depression and anguish...
I often wondered if he has found peace and happiness in his later years...he has a wife and I believe two daughters. Has that fulfilled him? How is he as a father to his children? It is in that that I think we may be able to judge how he has 'healed' as a human being.
Perhaps these questions may be answered after his death and if his wife and children decide to go public, write a memoir, etc.
Starship, Roman did have a very hard upbringing. Much harder than Charles Manson could even imagine. I'm not about to even try to say how that must feel, because I have no idea at all.
But I do think he used all that suffering in his early years as an excuse for his bad behavior.
He even said in an interview once that "because of the Holocaust, I relieve my pain with sex."
To me, that's just an excuse to get off.
I have to say though that he is a brilliant director. In particular, the movie "The Pianist". I'm assuming the musical score was under his control, and his choice of Chopin's pieces was excellent, including ending the movie with the Grande Polonaise Brillante in E Flat Major.
Most excellent choice! :)
There are many people who have horrible childhoods but they don't use that as an excuse to have sex with children. While Roman had several tragedies in his life, his behavior seemed to be the same no matter what the era. He had sex with this kid several years after the murders. How could that be related? He made no secret of the fact that he loved young girls and I do wonder how many others are out there. I think Katie was right when she said he used it as an excuse for his bad behavior.
I thin it's funny that, in the few pics of the 3 of them together, Roman is always front and center.
Yeah Venus, it's easy to blame bad behavior on childhood trauma. We've turned into a nation of wussies when it comes to playing the "blame game". LOL.
It is funny how he's always in the middle.
You know what else is funny? When you see pictures of Sharon and Roman together, they're usually staged so that she's on a step below him or slumping or leaning to make him appear taller.
He had the "little man complex". HA HA.
I just read a post where someone said if Roman woould have been home om 8/9/69 Sharon might still be alive. I dont understand this view. Really? Jay was a blackbelt in karate and trained with Bruce Lee some, so if he couldnt stop it how would Roman? Ive never understood when Susan went into Sharons room and told her and Jay to go into the living room, why Jay didnt just woop her ass right then? Same goes for Voytek and Leno, why didnt they fight instead of dying?
I thought about this also and the only thing i can think of is that may have thought the motive was burglary, not really knowing their true intentions was to murder them... apparently they did ask for money...maybe the victims initially thought it was better to be compliant for their chance of survival but quickly realizing too late when shit started going down that it wasn't just a burglary situation .... factor in the murderers all had weapons on them and the victims did not.... also if there had been heavy drinking at El Coyote as depicted than it would have made it that much easier to over power them ...Sharon was also pregnant ... she probably really believed they might spare her because of that...i don't include Sharon in the drinking alcohol at the restaurant but her friends....final point... hard to do but think of the amount of time the gruesome acts were committed...the victims didn't have the luxury of time to theorize escape plans or have a lot of time to even devise a plan of escape...it was chaos and they were probably scared shitless and they probably couldn't know for sure how many manson people were actually there during it that it might have influenced/intensified their fear and prevented them in trying to escape.... i hope that makes sense...
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