Sunday, August 9, 2015

Who's Who? The real John Philip Haught... aka "Zero".

John Philip Haught
Robert Earl Murray
Mr. Poirot said:
"Lynyrd how do you know it was a genuine hoax? Maybe it was a fake hoax therefore it's real?"

The second photo IS in-fact Robert Earl Murray (and not Haught).

That, in and of itself, is pretty big news.

However...

The "Robert" who wrote the "letter" (which was posted here), was not the real Robert Earl Murray.

The "letter" was fictitious.

The addresses and dates etc., (regarding the "author" of that letter), just don't match-up with those of the real Robert Earl Murray.

You see...
According to our "anonymous blogger", he was contacting men named "Robert Murray" looking for confirmation (regarding the second photo) and a back-story... and according to him, one "Robert Murray" responded with a letter.

The Bottom line:

Our "anonymous blogger" either wrote the fictitious letter himself... OR... he was duped himself, by the wrong Robert Murray.

Either way, the letter was fictitious.


That's what happened, in a nutshell.


So, in the final anlysis, we had the story half-right (minus the fictitious letter).

DebS over at the "Mansonblog" just posted a new thread, which discusses the specifics regarding "Robert Earl Murray" (if anyone is interested).

55 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Obviously, I don't know this anonymous blogger personally (so I can't vouch for his/her credibility), but if this information is true, it's pretty big news.

That second photo of John Haught has been coming-up on Google image searches for years.

In fact, I just did a Google image search for John Philip Haught (just as a litmus test)... and that image came-up FIRST!

From there, I clicked on the image of "Haught", and it brought me to Cielodrive.com. (As everyone knows, Cielodrive is a very reputable website).

Could it be, that we've had it all wrong for several years???

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thank You to the anonymous blogger who researched this, and sent it in.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Anonymous Blogger! I've always wondered why those 2 pictures looked so different. Is that really even a morgue photo of Zero?

That description he gives of Susan Atkins is interesting. It's exactly what I've always thought of her. She craves attention. That's why she bragged so much about stabbing Sharon Tate even though it was just a big lie. Even negative attention is better than no attention.

MrPoirot said...

Notice how Manson figured out the blogger at first sight. He didn't like him and knew he would not buy his shit. Again we have a witness remarking about being sized up quickly by Charlie.
Blogger does suspect that a possible reason things went bad was that they went crazy from too much LSD.

maudes harold said...

Amazing find guys! Thanks for sharing this!

"Manson himself grew up totally dominated and powerless in the penal system and was consciously looking for people to exercise power and control over and maybe use as weapons against the system he felt had ruined his life."

I think Robert sums up Manson's overall motive in life with this comment. I think that was a driving force in his life.

His perceptions of Davis, Susan and Beausoleil line up exactly with mine: dangerous, a whack-job and sinister sleazy.

I must say the image of Manson feeding the baby, eating oatmeal and calling Robert 'Lurch' was a new kind of domestic image for me. lol

I found his recitation of the LSD and Manson experience fascinating and seems almost to contain the info we've been talking about lately in some of the specific ways that Manson did his programming. The negative shit-spew into Robert's drug-induced psyche is the 'tearing down' type of element in programming. I also found Robert's feeling that some of it was cuz Charlie knew he didn't buy his bs, to be very interesting and probably very insightful.

Fascinating find and THANK YOU anonymous poster for your efforts.

maudes harold said...

Of course I'm bummed I can't ask a million questions, but I think it was pretty cool of Robert to respond at all, especially cuz you can tell he doesn't want to shout from the rooftops he 'partied' with Manson et al. This is what also lends credibility of his story to me--no sane person would want to be lumped into that group and he was sane enough to realize Manson was NOT someone to get up close and personal with.

I also found his 'jailbait'comments about Dianne Lake to be interesting and lead me to again question what the hell was in the mind of her parents?? The hippie mantra doesn't fly with me, who would allow their 14 yr old daughter to go away with a 35 yr old man you don't know really well? And it wasn't that innocent of age either so that bull doesn't fly with me either. Fools!!

katie8753 said...

Maudes I totally agree. The oatmeal/lurch thing, Mary serving up breakfast was kind of an eye opener. And his assessment of Susan, Bruce & Bobby was spot on!

I can't imagine why Wilson would allow these people to crash in his pad and just tear it up, and he's not even there??? How would you like to come home from touring and find all that mess.

the house looked like a bomb had gone off in it, with naked bodies crashed out everywhere among the sculptures and carpets and ornate furniture. Yuck!

grimtraveller said...

maudes harold said...

"who would allow their 14 yr old daughter to go away with a 35 yr old man you don't know really well?"


It's weird, but Dean Moorehouse did pretty much that too.
A couple of weeks ago I was reading on one of the other blogs and there's an e~mail purportedly from Diane Lake. She was very reasonable about her parents. Somehow, I wasn't surprised. Age sometimes really does bring wisdom and if you think about it, those people that were married and had kids that were blown away by the hippie happening and LSD found themselves in a situation probably unlike any that parents had found themselves in before.

MrPoirot said...

There are a lot of people who were at ground zero of many famous events and fads in the late 60s in California who really should write books on what it was like then because even now people really don't know what that era was about. It was a truly unique historically significant era that can't happen again because America and people are not like that anymore.

Paul Watkin's book "My Life With Charles Manson" is mocked by many because it is almost a rhetorical yet it may be the best book available to historians years from now on hat the day to day life of the 6os hippie types in California.

Look how young peoplw interact with life today. They live on their phones almost without a reality. Young people in the 60s were heavily anchored in living life the analog way. They interreacted with each other in person, face to face. They used phones for only 5 minutes a week and sometimes not at all. From age 18 to age 23 I didn't even own a phone and that was in the 70s. It was another world then. People today have no idea how different life was back then.

Too many 60s hippie types wrongly took for granted their youth was nondescript when in fact it was quite amazing how young people lived back then.

For instance: imagine how different 1920s America was from 1870s Wild West America.
Look how different life can be.

grimtraveller said...

[In an interesting coincidence, I found out years later that I happened to be kneeling almost exactly where Charlton Heston was filmed doing his "Damn you all to Hell" speech in "Planet of the Apes"]


For me, along with the scene in "The empire strikes back" where Luke Skywalker is told by Darth Vader that he's his Dad, the scene where Taylor realizes that he's actually on earth and that there has been some kind of nuclear devastation has got to rate as the most gripping dramatic scene in any film I've seen. Not the best film by a long stretch, but for sheer drama and grip, only the Vader scene equals it for me.
I still remember the first time I saw it, I couldn't believe it.

maudes harold said...

"I must say the image of Manson feeding the baby, eating oatmeal and calling Robert 'Lurch' was a new kind of domestic image for me"


It's interesting that this came up because I've been thinking about it a lot recently. In a different thread, the issue came up about the Mums being separated from their kids and I was wondering about when that first began with the family because I got the impression that even though the family participated in the delivery of Pooh Bear, Mary was still very much his Mum and given that Charlie had been denied a proper Mum by her own choice and actions, he would be different. I don't know why but I've long had that picture in my mind's eye of him playing with his child.
I also wouldn't be at all surprised if Mary Brunner's arrest on the afternoon of August 8th wasn't something of the straw that broke the camel's back for him which acted as the trigger point for why the Tate murders happened that night.
I can also see him calling a 6ft 6inch guy "Lurch." I know a lot of people hate him but personally, I've long felt he has a keen, if sometimes warped, sense of humour. Even when not trying to be funny, he's sometimes funny. There's a classic part in the penalty phase of the trial when the verdict of life or death is about to be read and Charlie has a go at the Judge about not being allowed to put on a defence and the Judge warns him to be quiet or he'll have him removed to which Manson replies "I didn't ask to come back !"
Well, I thought it was truly funny.
I remember 20 years ago, seeing a documentary called "The Man who killed the sixties" and in it he's asked something about a race war or something of that nature and he makes a comment about the English vs the Irish but he calls the interviewer "English" {I think it was made by the BBC} and the way he does it is just so funny. Yeah, I can see him taking the mick out of some tall guy and calling him "Lurch."

MrPoirot said...

Charlie and Yoko Ono killed the 60s and heavily contributed to the breakup of the Beatles. I believe the TLB murders hurried the Beatles demise s much as Yoko turning herself into Lennon's shadow. Charlie and Yoko are historically significant asshioles.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, I think Yoko pretty much put the final nail in the Beatles' coffin. She was trying to run things and the other Beatles hated her. But John refused to get rid of her.

But I think by that time they were all just tired of the fighting.

katie8753 said...

Grim, I have to admit, Charlie did say some funny things.

MrPoirot said...

The TLB murders were solved in early Dec 69 and the Beatles split two months later
in Jan/Feb 70.

maudes harold said...

Grimtraveler,

“It's weird, but Dean Moorehouse did pretty much that too.”


Dean Moorehouse was a pedophile himself, so that explains that. Dianne’s parents were older hippy dippy types “looking for themselves” who lived in communes all over California, as well as the Hogg Farm. I’ve read all the explanations/justifications of their behavior, but it still doesn’t fly. It’s one thing to welcome a Manson into your commune, it’s a whole other thing to allow your 14 yr old ‘jailbait’ daughter to go travelling alone, un-chaperoned with a recently met, kicked out of the Hogg Farm, ex-con 35 y.o. Manson. I know Dianne forgives her parents, she talked about it in the Nellie call, so that works for her, but what her parents did is utterly absurd-they’re lucky she didn’t get hurt worse or ‘get dead.’

--

I think Manson had a hilarious sense of humor!! I have cracked up many a times at what he says, especially in discussing/revealing society’s hypocrisies. I can also see and believe that little domestic scene described by Robert. I can see Manson being great with kids……until stress set in. Then I can see him reacting explosively and while I don’t think he would necessarily strike an infant, I could see him hitting a 6 year old, or his mother instead. I think he’s capable of both, sweet and violent. He reportedly used to swing infants by their feet, a conditioning technique. All his directives toward child-rearing are conditioning/programming techniques. So while he could be sweet, and possibly even genuine sometimes, I believe there was always an underlining conditioning purpose for it.

beauders said...

I remember a story I read about Manson babysitting one of the actors on "The Addams Family" kids. It was during his time with Universal Studio's but I can't remember what actor. when I have time I'll figure it out, as it's in my book. Could you imagine telling people as an adult "oh ya Charles Manson used to babysit me and my sister." I wish there was a way I could get my book out so can read it.

Kimchi said...

Hey Beauders,

I thought he babysat for Al Lewis, "Grandpa" from the Munsters....????

Shorty's pistols said...

It was Al Lewis, Grandpa Munster from the Munsters TV show that claimed Charlie was his babysitter.

Quote on

Every Friday I used to have about fifty [to] sixty kids who would wait for me on Sunset Boulevard and I'd take them all to dinner. All runaways. That's how I met Charlie Manson. He wanted to be in the music business. He babysat my three kids ... I met him in front of the Whiskey-A-Go-Go on Sunset Boulevard. He sat for four or five hours, he amused the kids, he brought the guitar and he played, no big deal, no sweat."

Quote off

Lewis went on to say in other interviews that he thought Charlie was a fine guy, that Manson was railroaded, and he would be a character witness for Charlie if the opportunity arose.

This must be taken with a huge load of salt. Al Lewis was a world class teller of tall tales and loved to do so. He lied about his age, for instance. No unusual thing in Hollywood. But Lewis told people he was 14 years OLDER that his true age. There are several versions of Lewis' interview re: CM on the net. They are a hoot, but must be viewed in the light that Al wouldn't pull your leg, he's tear it off.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Matt from the Mansonblog contacted me today, and based on his research, we compared notes regarding this "anonymous contributor".

It's been confirmed, that this story about "Robert" is a hoax.

It's amazing the lengths some quacks will go to, for 5 minutes in the sun.

Peace!

katie8753 said...

Man that's a shame. It was a good story anyway, LOL.

Manson babysat for Grandpa Munster? Was it a bunch of little "Eddies" running around?

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

"I think Yoko pretty much put the final nail in the Beatles' coffin"


If anyone put the final nail in the Beatles' coffin, it was Allen Klein.
But it's a really complicated story that has no easy answer because so much was going on. In the space of 13 months, Ringo, then George then John left the band. Ringo during the White Album sessions, George during the Let it be sessions. Those two returned but when John left, he never did return. He actually left two weeks before the Abbey Road album was released in September '69 ~ long before anyone had actually been charged with the TLB killings. The reason the band kept it quiet was because they were in the midst of a mega bucks negotiation with Capitol records.
But it was the entry of Klein as the manager of John, George & Ringo when Paul wanted his in laws, the Eastmans to manage their affairs that really clanged that coffin shut. Yoko simply gave John the guts to do what he'd been scared to do for years since fame and drugs had sapped his rebellious soul.
By the time the Beatles officially split in April 1970, they were having hassles with many of the people they had been connected with, personal & professional.

MrPoirot said...

"The TLB murders were solved in early Dec 69 and the Beatles split two months later in Jan/Feb 70"


They had their last recording session {minus John who had quit} in January 1970. Ironically, they recorded George's wise song about the ego problems of humanity, "I, Me, Mine."
The Beatle connection to the TLB killings didn't really start to emerge until February of 1970 when Vince Bugliosi put together the sporadic fragments that had been coming under his radar to reveal helter skelter.

beauders said...

"I wish there was a way I could get my book out so can read it"


So do I.
When you do, put me down for a copy. I'll even take a photocopy.

maudes harold said...

"Dean Moorehouse was a pedophile himself, so that explains that"


Sure, all I was tilting at was that it happened more than once with a girl the same age. Even if one doesn't believe Nuel Emmons, Bugliosi makes clear mention of it in "Helter skelter" and whether or not Morehouse was a paedophile, he wasn't initially pleased about Charlie seducing Ruth.




maudes harold said...

"but what her parents did is utterly absurd-they’re lucky she didn’t get hurt worse or ‘get dead.’"


I totally agree with you on this.
But you'd be surprised how lax some parents are with their kids. Back in the 80s & 90s I used to marvel at the number of parents that would let their kids do residential trips with us at the playground I worked with. Some of them had never even met us or spoken to us ! You can understand it with the school, but we weren't the school.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"It's been confirmed, that this story about "Robert" is a hoax"


I kept weighing up in my mind the things said that could show this was genuine and the things that could show that it was a hoax. And there were things on both lists.
But in truth, I'm rubbish at spotting these things !

sunset77 said...

I read about half the story of "Robert" last night, I kind of wish I would have read it all now. I'm highly skeptical of any information surrounding this case. If there isn't photos/film, and at least 3 people that say the same thing or something similar, it's probably a publicity seeker or a waste of time.

Part of the claim was he was arrested with Manson and that was his mugshot in 1968 didn't he say? It seems to me that arrest records and mugshots are pretty much public and I don't think it would have taken much searching to determine his real name.

I looked up John Philip Haught a few years ago. It seems to me he was in a biker gang and the Manson family, one referred to him as "Christopher Jesus" and the other as "Zero". Robert Hendrickson mentions Haught getting his brains blown out at the apartment or Mark Ross in of his films. Haught was found dead on Nov. 5, 1969. I suspect the 2 photos are the same person. People often don't look the same after they are dead and a funeral director "cleans them up", especially in this case when he was shot in the head.

I seriously doubt Haught shot himself considering the background of the other people that were there. Apparently, there has never been enough evidence to prove otherwise however.

maudes harold said...

"It's been confirmed, that this story about "Robert" is a hoax."--

Isn't the first time and I doubt it'll be the last time either!! lol


I agree sunset77, I don't think Haught was playing a gun game either, not in the end at least.


I think Yoko Ono's talent is a taste I've never acquired and I can't imagine that'll ever change.....

katie8753 said...

You know, for a hoax story, this story is very complicated. Saying that Manson played the Addams Family on his guitar and said "Lurch". That sounds very much like Charlie.

Why would someone make that up?

As I said before, that picture of Haught doesn't look anything like his morgue photo. And I know that dead people look different, but there's usually a resemblance.

Sharon and Abigail's morgue photos looked just like them, except of course their eyes were shut and they had wounds. Same with Rosemary.

Frykowski and Sebring were harder to recognize because they'd had the stuffing beat out of them. That's understandable. And Leno was pretty well carved up.

The photo of Marilyn Monroe in the morgue was hard to decipher, but mostly because she had the makeup removed.

Hell, even the photo of JFK on his death table looked like him.

I'm not saying it's not a hoax. I'm just saying I find some of it credible.

Maybe somebody heard someone talking about those days.....

katie8753 said...

And I agree with Sunset and Maudes, Zero didn't kill himself. Now THAT'S a hoax! HA HA.

katie8753 said...

And Yoko Ono is a weirdo. I knew that when John first took up with her. She told him to have sex with May Pang when she got tired of him.

He was her boy-toy. She brain-fucked him and lead him around with a leash.

When he was killed, I was shocked to hear about her "sorrow". She inherited millions and I think she tried to cock block his son with first wife Cynthia Lennon, Julian Lennon, who Paul later wrote "Hey Jude" for.

katie8753 said...

Have you seen the photos of Yoko when she and John first hooked up? She was hideous. She reminds me of that hellion on The Grudge.

She was some kind of starving artist when she met John, and probably introduced him to the Kama Sutra which got his attention. He was a weak man, and she had him by the balls on the first date.

maudes harold said...

"Zero didn't kill himself. Now THAT'S a hoax! HA HA."-- LMAO! I needed that today Katie!

I think Yoko is just yucky-icky. I once heard her singing, which sounds like two cats in heat, and my ears started to bleed--I don't know if that was from her 'singing' or the sticks I was jammin' in my ears...lol

Um, Katie...what do you mean by Yoko cock-blocking Julian exactly?? lol I'm ASSuming you mean keeping Julian from John, but idk, I could end up with crap on my face or you making me laugh out loud again today....

Whoever wrote this hoax definitely 'got' Charlie regardless.

MrPoirot said...


Grim Said:
They had their last recording session {minus John who had quit} in January 1970. Ironically, they recorded George's wise song about the ego problems of humanity, "I, Me, Mine."
The Beatle connection to the TLB killings didn't really start to emerge until February of 1970 when Vince Bugliosi put together the sporadic fragments that had been coming under his radar to reveal helter skelter.[end quote]

The blood writing on the wall "healter skelter" had leaked out prior to Vince. I think it had leaked almost immediately and news people were asking police about it.

Were the murfers cfrucil to the Beatles split? Dunno but the timeline is close enough to make you wonder. The actual public split of the Beatles was when Paul said "I quit" in early 1970. Harrison had left the band then returned. lennon was POd and threatening to quit but Pal was the one who publically ended it.

A lot of shit was going on that ended the Beatles. I've always wondered if TLB was a major cause. I do remember at the time the group was aghast at their name being mixed up in TLB. I've never read any of the four saying they split due to the horrors of the murders but who knows? For years they refused to even address questions about the murders.

katie8753 said...

Oh Maudes, her singing is useful in peeling paint, unclogging drains and driving off unwanted varmints.

I have a recording of Yoko singing that I play to drive off skunks. And I have to say, once I push the "play" button, they run off faster than ho ho's in a police raid.

John and Oko Yowno (my name for her) wrote a book of poems back in the 60's. My sister bought it. One of the poems was "No Flies On Frank". I snuck a peek at that book and thought it was the dumbest thing I'd ever read. In my mind, it was just another level that John had sunk to because of Oko.

She tried to cock block Julian in the will, but she wasn't successful. He did get several moneys. In fact lots of moneys. But she was trying to save it all for her son Sean.

maudes harold said...

"Oh Maudes, her singing is useful in peeling paint, unclogging drains and driving off unwanted varmints.
I have a recording of Yoko singing that I play to drive off skunks. And I have to say, once I push the "play" button, they run off faster than ho ho's in a police raid."--


LMAO!! But Katie, say it ain't so! Those varmints are living creatures and making their ears bleed is just abusive!! LOL Unwanted they may be but next time how about Katie Perry singing live, it's bad but shouldn't leave permanent damage. Of course she is presently attempting to swindle some nuns out of their convent grounds which partially abut the LaBianca's old property on Waverly, so you'll probably have to rely on a youtube version of her...

maudes harold said...

"She tried to cock block Julian in the will, but she wasn't successful. He did get several moneys. In fact lots of moneys. But she was trying to save it all for her son Sean."--

Griftin' bitch! I'm presently dealing with one, they're brutal.

katie8753 said...

True Maudes. I should be more humane and just play Slim Whitman's "Indian Love Call". LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBuk1HXcz1k

"Griftin' bitch! I'm presently dealing with one, they're brutal."

Just remember what George Constanza says:

OK, we're takin' it up a notch, and we'll see who blinks first!

maudes harold said...

"OK, we're takin' it up a notch, and we'll see who blinks first!"--Amen sistah!

She did, today.

Another round tomorrow, so I'm off to bed.

Thanks for the laughs Katie, much needed and appreciated. You crack me up!

Sleep well.

katie8753 said...

You betcha Maudes! Anytime Darlin'!

Laughter is the best medicine!!!

Nighty, night!!!:)

grimtraveller said...

maudes harold said...

"I think Yoko Ono's talent is a taste I've never acquired"


As a conceptual artist, her talent is there and in a background way, she made a contribution to John's latterday Beatle songs by introducing him to interesting concepts that turned into lines and sections of the songs. She also, {unfortunately} was the wellspring behind the horrendously boring "Revolution 9" and the mildly amusing "What's the new Mary Jane."
As a 'singer', well, she wasn't. You can't even file her under 'forgettable.' She sounds like a vixen during mating.


katie8753 said...

"He was her boy-toy. She brain-fucked him and lead him around with a leash"


If anything, it wasn't that he was her toyboy, rather she was his mother lover fantasy woman that he'd been looking for since his Mum died. He actually used to call her Mother {so he said} and immortalised this the song "Happiness is a warm gun."

katie8753 said...

"Have you seen the photos of Yoko when she and John first hooked up? She was hideous"


The looks concepts and opinions of males and females rarely ceases to fascinate me ! I personally thought she was gorgeous in the late 60s, especially on the cover of "Two virgins !"

katie8753 said...

"He was a weak man, and she had him by the balls on the first date"


He was also a bored and trapped man, searching frantically for meaning in life despite writing and playing on some of the most fantastic songs still available and having millions of ££££s. It was actually 18 months before they got together after their first meeting and had he not been so blitzed by LSD and meditation after emptying himself for two months in India, it's speculative whether they would have got together.
But in reality, she rescued him. She gave him something that all the drugs, groupies, songs, adulation, money, music and the other Beatles simply no longer could by 1968. Although they had their famous split in the early to mid 70s, it was only a short split. He made a point of stating, just before he died that he'd been with Yoko longer than he'd been with Paul McCartney, the only two people he ever regarded as partners.

katie8753 said...

"John and Oko Yowno (my name for her) wrote a book of poems back in the 60's. One of the poems was "No Flies On Frank". I snuck a peek at that book and thought it was the dumbest thing I'd ever read. In my mind, it was just another level that John had sunk to because of Oko"


Her poetry was actually heaps better than her singing ! Actually, what she did can't be classified as singing in my view. It's nerve crawly stuff.
Her poetry was also better than his in that it could be quite profound. His poetry was deliberately gobbledegook because he was influenced by very English stuff like Edward Lear, the Goons, Jabberwocky and Just William. Interestingly, once he'd become a regular acid tripper, he stopped writing love songs and more of that left field writing came to the fore in his songs and it influenced generations of songwriters to come.
"No flies on Frank" {a silly phrase I used to use a lot} was written long before he met Yoko. It was in his first book "In his own write."

grimtraveller said...

MrPoirot said...


"The blood writing on the wall "healter skelter" had leaked out prior to Vince. I think it had leaked almost immediately and news people were asking police about it"


In "Helter skelter", when describing the LaBianca detectives, Bugliosi comments that they were younger & less experienced but more inclined to explore "far out" theories, going onto to mention that they talked about the meanings of the words printed in blood and they linked them to songs on the White album. He calls it a connection so remote that it couldn't even be called a wild guess and no one could remember who suggested it. He says it was just as quickly forgotten !

MrPoirot said...

"Were the murders crucial to the Beatles split? Dunno but the timeline is close enough to make you wonder"


Well, they did all seriously love America......!





MrPoirot said...

"lennon was POd and threatening to quit but Pal was the one who publically ended it"


Paul publicly ended it by taking the other three to court on the last day of 1970 to have the partnership dissolved but by then, they'd long since broken up. You can actually chart the dates because Lennon's leaving was really the end of the band. He said as much ¬> "I started the band. I disbanded it. It's as simple as that." Lennon said he was on a plane going to Canada when he told Eric Clapton he was leaving and considered using him and Klaus Voorman in his new band. That was the day before the Rock'n' roll revival concert in Toronto which happened before Abbey Road even came out.
In a way, it's like the TLB story ~ you have the 'official' version that has hamstrung the killers ever since and you have what really went on. For example, much of what the girls said at trial is part of the official record. But we know that what they said during the penalty phase was bullshit.

MrPoirot said...

"I've always wondered if TLB was a major cause. I do remember at the time the group was aghast at their name being mixed up in TLB"


I don't think TLB was even on their radar at the time. There was lots of other stuff going on and it wasn't really until after the split that the Beatle angle really came to the fore.


MrPoirot said...


"For years they refused to even address questions about the murders"


Lennon spoke about Manson in his 1970 Rolling Stone interview. He said he agreed with some of what he said though he concluded that he was 'cracked.' Mind you, he also said he and George were 'cracked.'
In his 1980 Playboy interview, without prompting, he mentioned Manson when discussing the song "Helter skelter" and he also referenced the murders by mentioning "Piggies."

grimtraveller said...

maudes harold said...

"Whoever wrote this hoax definitely 'got' Charlie regardless"


Maybe too well.
One of the things that made me wonder if it was genuine or a fake was what "Robert" said about Susan Atkins. That struck me as a little too accurate to apply to her at a drug party. And also what he said about Pat's hairiness or his bike being knicked. They had a bus !
But I'm no great Charlie, able to psych out a fake by their writing. There were other parts that seemed like they really could be true, like saying he never met Dennis Wilson or Charlie eating oatmeal and making faces at his kid.

beauders said...

You guys are right it was Al Lewis, now who wouldn't get the Addams Family and the Munsters mixed up.

MrPoirot said...

Lynyrd how do you know it was a genuine hoax? Maybe it was a fake hoax therefore it's real? All hoaxes are not genuine hoaxes. Some hoaxes are fake and designed to make you think truth is fake in order to confuse you so that you can't tell a genuine hoax from a fake hoax. If you have a genuine hoax here then it's fake but it you have a fake hoax here then its phony. The dilemma we face here is: is it a real hoax or a fake hoax? Did the hoaxer fake us out by telling a true story? Or? Did the hoaxer really hoax us and genuinely tell us a fake story therefore it is a fake hoax. If the hoaxer meant to honestly hoax us then is it a genuine hoax?
Another words do we really exist? Are we a hoax ourselves therefore we are not capable of recognizing a fake hoax or a real hoax.

katie8753 said...

Grim, Yoko Ono was a FREAK. From start to finish. I've got nothing good to say about her. She was ordering John around like he was a "special needs child" (we can't say retard anymore). She started out as some kind of avant garde artist (translation: Dope head) and ran into John, who was so doped up that he didn't know "come here from sic-em". And she definitely took advantage of him. Kind of like a semi-sober person taking care of a "constant drunk".

I think that description of Susan Atkins by "Robert" was spot on. I've studied her a lot, and I know she craved attention. Every single picture you see of her prior to her conviction is her acting silly and making faces. She loved the attention. Did you not notice how AFTER her conviction, she started acting "normal" in pictures?

I'll say again, she made up stories about her murderous activities to get attention, even though they weren't true.

As far as the other descriptions (Pat, Bobby, Bruce, Manson) they can all be based on experience because we all know how it turned out. Although I think the stories about Manson are believable. That guy is capable of anything.

katie8753 said...

Grim, you thought she was gorgeous on Two Virgins?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://oldies-goldies.ru/images/5081p.jpg&imgrefurl=http://oldies-goldies.ru/popup_image.php?pID%3D547%26image%3D7&h=700&w=725&tbnid=0bssX-mn7yf6ZM:&tbnh=160&tbnw=165&usg=__1Ga_LA6qroKdkJl2gGDwCeKzAbs=&docid=O17hkhadDMPBkM&itg=1

You and I are from 2 different wavelengths. That picture is hideous. She looks like she growing 2 grapefruits that have a nasty ending on each one. But, to each his own I guess!!!

maudes harold said...

@ Mr. P,

Who’s on first?? LOL

I thought the same thing, tho a more abbreviated and a much less lyrical version.
--

@ Katie,

I saw video an art exhibit of hers that featured a ladder leading up to a tiny word written on the ceiling. Iirc, the word was 'yes'. One would climb the ladder and read it. I liked that for its' positivity and simplicity, but can't say it was super creative. She was a 1/2-hit wonder at best, imo. But like beauty, art is in the eye of the beholder. Of course my ears still hurt.....

katie8753 said...

Well Maudes, I'm not a conformer, I'm not politically correct, and I'm definitely not a democrat. And I say it like it is...

Yoko is a hideous beast that rose up when she met John, because we all know that if she hadn't met John, she would have drowned in the pool called obscurity, along with all the other other starving artists.

But since she did meet John and took up with him, she suddenly became important. She lucked out! Because without John, she would have been nothing. And I mean that!!

maudes harold said...

Katie,

" I'm not a conformer, I'm not politically correct, and I'm definitely not a democrat. And I say it like it is..."--ditto

I don't generally comment on people's looks cuz that's just how they're born and can't do too much about that, but I will comment/form opinions what I perceive of their character, something they can do something about. While I'm sure there are positive attributes to Yoko, I've always seen her as a kind of succubus. Unless, she met up with some other famous guy, I'm with you on the obscurity thing.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Maudes. I don't comment on people's looks either unless they put it in my face, like she did.

I've known many people who were not attractive, but were good friends with good hearts. I've known many people who were not attractive, but were good people and did good things.. I've known many people who were not attractive, but did good deeds for other folks who were strangers and didn't have to.

Yoko Ono never helped earthquake survivors, hurricane survivors, children starving in third world countries, never took up for starving animals, never supported children with cancer, never took up a cause that I now of, other than putting up a monument for John. She has millions of dollars. She could/should have done something with that money, seeing that she wanted John to sing about Peace all the time.

I've known people who were attractive and didn't do a shittin' thing for anyone. I've known people who were attractive who shit on people.

I've lived a long short life.

There are a lot of good people out there in this world who do nice things for people, there are a LOT of good people who just want to help people, but I have to say that people like Yoko, and I could mention many other people, but I won't, just do things for personal reasons, like financial reasons or getting further ahead.

Yoko Ono would never have been anything without John Lennon.

Sherri Lowe said...

Love her or hate her.
Both beauty and talent are in the eye of the beholder.

But a quick fact check finds out that she has indeed taken up at least one cause.

http://www.samaritanmag.com/606/yoko-ono-charity-has-built-90-schools-and-counting

Shorty's pistols said...

MP A fake hoax that is real will fake you out, I'm sure.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sherri. I guess I was ragging on Yoko because it's so hot here and I took it out on her. LOL.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

"Grim, you thought she was gorgeous on Two Virgins?"


Yeah. I was 13 when I first saw it. I think that might have been the first picture of a naked woman I ever saw. It was certainly the first one I noticed other than the silly topless pictures on page 3 of the Sun newspaper. I saw rather than really looked at the page 3 girls. Yoko I looked at !

katie8753 said...
"You and I are from 2 different wavelengths. That picture is hideous. She looks like she growing 2 grapefruits that have a nasty ending on each one"


Grapefruits are one of the few fruits I still like !


katie8753 said...
"Yoko Ono would never have been anything without John Lennon"


Debatable. She was sufficiently well known as an artist in New York for Dylan to warn George about her reputation when he first heard she'd hooked up with John. When George told John what he'd heard, a split occurred between them that never fully closed and in my opinion was a more significant volcano in the Beatle break up than the fallout John had with Paul.


katie8753 said...
"I think that description of Susan Atkins by "Robert" was spot on. I've studied her a lot, and I know she craved attention. Every single picture you see of her prior to her conviction is her acting silly and making faces. She loved the attention"


That's why I found it suspect. It was too accurate. Almost like the person knew from many accounts that Susan was like that.
But what do I know ? !

katie8753 said...

Well good point Grim. It would be very easy to describe someone you've never met simply by reading about them....

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mr. Poirot said:
"Lynyrd how do you know it was a genuine hoax? Maybe it was a fake hoax therefore it's real?"

======================================================================================

The second photo IS in-fact Robert Earl Murray (and not Haught).
That, in and of itself, is pretty big news.

However...
The "Robert" who wrote the "letter" (which was posted here), was not the real Robert Earl Murray.

The "letter" was fictitious.
The addresses and dates etc., (regarding the "author" of that letter), just don't match-up with those of the real Robert Earl Murray.

You see...
According to our "anonymous blogger", he was contacting men named "Robert Murray" looking for confirmation (regarding the second photo) and a back-story... and according to him, one "Robert Murray" responded with a letter.

The Bottom line:
Our "anonymous blogger" either wrote the fictitious letter himself... OR... he was duped himself, by the wrong Robert Murray.

Either way, the letter was fictitious.

That's what happened, in a nutshell.

So, in the final anlysis, we had the story half-right (minus the fictitious letter).

DebS over at the "Mansonblog" just posted a new thread, which discusses the specifics regarding "Robert Earl Murray" (if anyone is interested).

Unknown said...

Does anyone think zero was the John that the Canadian girl went to LA to visit..

Louis Burch said...

The one who has finally been identified... I mean bugliosi flat out says in his book he thought she was murdered because she knew what really happened to John haught... 40 years before !!!!!!!

grimtraveller said...

Unknown said...

Does anyone think zero was the John that the Canadian girl went to LA to visit..

I don't.
We have a tendency to elevate coincidence in this case to the status of near biblical truth !