Wednesday, December 4, 2013

Squeaky's Last Stand


Culturally Charles Manson is the focus, but historically he may well become only a footnote to Lynette Alice Fromme. 

Fromme became a historical figure in the mid-1970s when she became the first woman to be charged and then convicted of the attempted assassination of a serving President of the United States of America. 

No stranger to serious charges, Fromme had previously been arrested on suspicion of murder twice before. Once briefly in late 1969 by officers investigating the Hinman murder, and again in 1972 for the murder of Lauren Willett.

After her guilty verdict for the attempted assassination of a USA President, in 1976 she was named but not indicted to stand trial with her housemates Sandra Good and Susan Murphy for her part in the conspiracy to use the US mail service  to send threatening letters.

In 1979 having recently been transferred for good behaviour from the Federal Correctional Institution at Alderson, West Virginia, to the Women’s Correctional Institute, Pleasanton, California, Fromme narrowly missed out on assault charges for her hammer attack on fellow inmate Julienee Busic.

After the incident was investigated by the FBI, it was decided to allow the matter to be dealt with by the prison authorities and Fromme was subsequently returned to Alderson. 

By 1983 authorities had allowed her and Manson to communicate by correspondence. Fromme continued to quietly serve her life sentence with little media interest.

In December 1987 Fromme once again returned to international headlines during her brief freedom after a successful escape attempt. A little passed midday on Christmas Day she was spotted on the side of the road by passing officers two miles south of the prison. Stopping their car beside her, the rain-soaked Fromme offered no resistance and got in. After 40 hours of freedom in a rural forested area in poor weather conditions she was returned to the prison.

The scene was now for what may well be the final trial of an original member of the Manson Family.

During Christmas week Assistant US Attorney J Kirk Brandfass announced that a grand jury would shortly be called to decide whether or not to hand down an indictment on Fromme for her unlawful escape from a federal institution. He stated that she could face an extra ten years added to her life sentence and a fine of $250,000. In the mean time she was expected to be interviewed by US Marshals over the next several days.

By 05 January 1988 the indictment was handed down, and her arraignment was scheduled to take place on 14 January in Bluefield W.Va.

At the arraignment, Fromme objected to her nickname “Squeaky” being included in the reading out of the charge against her. It was her intention to plead “No Contest”, but the Federal Magistrate Charles Cunningham told her that he could not legally accept that plea and on her behalf entered one of “Not Guilty”.

However Fromme explained “legally, I am guilty. Morally and spiritually I am not guilty.”

Fromme also requested that she be allowed to represent herself and that “I’d like to be paid the amount an attorney would.” She stated that the money paid should go towards land reclamation in West Virginia. When asked by the magistrate which part she answered “all the land.” He later explained to her that he did not have the authority to act upon her request.

The preliminary hearing took place early March 1988. After leaving and being escorted past waiting reporters, when she got back into the car transporting her, she then pulled out a map, motioned to it, looked at reporters and laughed.

The trial was set to begin in mid March 1988 in the court of US District Judge Elizabeth Hallanen in Beckley, W.Va. Prosecuting was US Attorney J Kirk Brandfass, Fromme represented herself. Only four witnesses were called, all of them prison employees.

For the second time Fromme was denied her request for a no-contest plea and a not guilty plea was entered on her behalf. “I admit committing to escape,” she said “I was away for two days.”

Fromme called herself as her only witness and followed the judge’s instructions that her testimony had to be in the form of questions and answers, by questioning herself on the pronunciation of her own name and cautioning herself: “Miss Fromme you talk too much,” and “Wait a minute, you’re getting ahead of yourself.”

Fromme told jury that she attempted to escape after getting word that Manson had cancer. “He needs a relative, somebody to check on him,” she described him as “my husband, my brother, my father, my son, the man who’s been my friend.”

“My access to him is so limited, I’ve been feeling helpless for years. If love means anything at all, it means stop feeling helpless…take action if necessary.”

Fromme cross-examined each of the prosecution witnesses, questioning them on the population of the prison, and each indicated that the institution - which had an official capacity of 670, now held about 1,000 prisoners.

Fromme told the jury overcrowding was one of the reasons she tried to escape. “The prison has become more and more crowded, and the institution staff has become more and more tense.”

Fromme also told the jury “I’m guilty as charged, legally, and without remorse morally, so that’s that...You don’t have any choice.” 

Prosecutor Brandfass summed her up “This defendant is not some kind of earth mother traipsing through the woods with bluebirds on her shoulder. She is a twisted follower of the twisted demonic murderer Charles Manson.”

To which Fromme replied “Mr Manson is not on trial here.”

The jury returned its verdict within ten minutes. Fromme was found guilty of unlawful escape from a federal institution.

Sentencing took place on 25 May 1998. Fromme was fined $400 and sentenced to serve an additional 15 months, and would have to be transferred to another institution.

Fromme said she had no remorse and “another escape floats through my mind now and again…I couldn’t say I wouldn’t try to escape again.”

By June 1988 Fromme was transferred to Lexington Federal Correctional Institution in Kentucky, to be housed in the high security unit. She described the inmates there as being treated like dogs in a kennel. 

By 1989 she had been transferred to Marianna Federal Correctional Institution, Florida. Of her conditions she said “It’s ugly here, I don’t like it…Here, what we look at are the fences. A great thing is to stare up and look at the sky.” 

“It looks like a combination of an old Roman coliseum and a garish modern office building…There’s so much concertina wire it looks like they went into the hardware business.”

“It’s very depressing,” she said. “I have value. I can’t see the reason for being locked up in an ice cube the rest of my life...I haven’t been allowed to communicate with Manson in eight months. I know the FBI reads all my mail. So I don’t write my friends.”

Her prison job was to take out the trash “I chose that because it’s useful work. I think jobs should be work that needs doing.”

Sources were various newspaper articles and Squeaky by Jess Bravin

========================================================================

Lynyrd adds a brief commentary:

At this point in time... given the choice... I'd rather watch an uncensored interview with Lynn Fromme, than with Charles Manson.

Heck... 
I'd love to see Squeaky answer questions, in 2014.

Come to think of it...
I'd rather read a book authored by Lynn Fromme (over Charles Manson) at this point, as well.

That's just my personal opinion... which essentially means nothing.  But, considering that Charles Manson is supposed to be one of the most fascinating, provocative (and notorious) men alive... it's an interesting commentary, none-the-less.

Has "the boogey man"... Charles Manson... finally become boring to the general public?
To some extent... it seems so.

Look:
The facts (and study) of the Tate-LaBianca event... will never become boring.  It's part of our nation's history, plain and simple.  Legally, sociologically and psychologically... it's a  compelling (and worth-while) study. That my friends, will never change.  

The phenomena of the 1960's counter-culture (and the lifestyle at Spahn's)... will never become boring, either.  
Again, it's history.  (And again, an interesting case-study in sociology).  

In short... the case itself, will always be viable.  That point is pretty obvious. 

BUT...
As for Charles Manson's public personality (and persona) specifically... there seems to be a collective *yawn* throughout society.  And really... why not?

Let's look at reality:
For decades, Manson has provided the general media with nothing more, than cheeky humor... and understandably... that's all the general public, has come to expect.

For years... society has consumed Manson's public "shtick" ad nauseam... and now... it would appear... that few folks can muster much excitement to view (or hear), more of the same.

Is there a secret Charles Manson... who... "behind closed doors"... confides "the real facts" to a select few??  
I highly doubt it... but, it's possible.

But, one thing's for certain folks:
Manson's "public schtick" which he performs for the general public... much like a broken record... has become very predictable... and consequently, boring.

Let's take an impromptu, hypothetical poll:
Given the choice... would you rather hear from Lynn Fromme or Charles Manson in 2014?

And no Katie... "neither" is not a valid answer. LOL  If you're going to play-along, you must choose one.

135 comments:

MrPoirot said...

Thanks Christopher. Your article describes the abuse that Squeaky inflicted upon herself for so long. 34 years in prison...sheesh! What a horrible life. Charlie may have stolen her soul more so than any other girl but there is evidence that she was very pigheaded before she met Manson.
She's an enigma that showed up one day on the front porch of infamy. She fought everyone and everything but achieved nothing in her life and helped no one.

sunset77 said...

Thanx for the post.

Apparently, the woman Fromme attacked with a claw hammer was pretty wild herself. Julienne Bušić was involved the the hi-jacking of TWA Flight 355 on September 10, 1976.

Apparently, the plane was hi-jacked by 5 Croatian nationalists seeking publicity for their cause. The were led by Julienne Bušić's husband, Zvonko Bušić.

The Wiki page about flight TWA Flight 355 is HERE.

"Zvonko Bušić committed suicide on 1 September 2013 by gunshot at his home in Rovanjska near Zadar; he was discovered by his wife. He was 67 years old.[8] Thousands came to his burial in the Alley of the Defenders on the Mirogoj cemetery in Zagreb."--Wikipedia

That was about 3 months ago. A YouTube video of what MIGHT be Zvonko Bušić's funeral is HERE. I'm not sure that's his funeral as the description is in Croatian, but I'd say there's a good chance it is.

Somehow, I doubt the former wife of the American policeman that was killed by one of the hi-jackers bombs was in attendance.

leary7 said...

Nice writing, Chris B. I always enjoy your stuff.
I have often pondered whether Lynn had a real capacity for violence. She was around violence, probably even complicit in it, but except for the hammer attack did she engage in any? That is, of course, if you buy her claim that she never really intended to shoot Ford and knew there was no gun in the chamber.

Is there any update on her? Did she and her guy leave upstate New York? Any inside knowledge of her being in touch with Sandy or any of the other girls? Is she still on parole and if not would she be allowed to visit Manson?
In the end I think history will see her just as a semi-adorable whack job.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Chris.
Excellent work, as usual.

As a wise man, once said:
"Lynn deserves to be number one... she's been loyal for decades."

And that wise man, was latterly quoted in a nationally-circulated periodical.

: )

starship said...

Interesting reading about Squeaky.

I shall try to get an update on her as well...thanks!

MrPoirot said...

Squeaky is on parole forever. She is not permitted on the internet nor can she submit to interviews. She is supposed to mind her own business, shut up and behave or go back to prison.
Somebody whom apparently Squeaky respects had a long talk with her and made an impression on her. She has been a good citizen so far. Apparently she hasn't heard that Obama wants to cut down the Redwoods.

Rob King said...

Ah, Mr P., you tease...any hint you can give who that "somebody" Lynn respects could be. Was it Oprah? Ellen? Lady Gaga? Candy and Nuts?
You're gonna tell me it was just and assistant warden or something, aren't ya?
I am still curious is she is prohibited from interacting with any Family members. Does CieloDrive have the conditions of her parole on file?

katie8753 said...

Fromme told jury that she attempted to escape after getting word that Manson had cancer. “He needs a relative, somebody to check on him,” she described him as “my husband, my brother, my father, my son, the man who’s been my friend.”

Wow. That sounds like Brooke on The Bold and The Beautiful.

She married Ridge, then married his brother and then his father. That makes him her husband, step-son & brother-in-law. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Let's see, Squeaky escapes from prison, then they have a trial to determine if she escaped from prison.

Did I miss a paragraph?

Why didn't the judge just say "okay for escaping from prison, we're adding 10 more years to your sentence. Period".

Why do the criminals have all the rights? The victims have no rights. No rights at all. Too much bleeding heart liberalism around.

The court's justice used to be swift and just, but now it works as slow as an old man sliding into a warm bath.

And why do these people always want to represent themselves? Is that another stall tactic?

So Squeaky gets sent to a prison that was "ugly". Is prison supposed to be "pretty & fun"?

Get outta here.

Mr. P, Squeaky, probably for the first time in her life, has to pay income tax. And she also has to pay a fine if she doesn't get health insurance. That might be enough to make her bust a spring. LOL.

MrPoirot said...

Rob I don't know who had a heart to heart with Squeaky. Her new beau? Somehow her futile protest ended. It just struck me that the wheels and gears in her head started moving again or they wouldn't have thrown her out of prison which is exactly what they did.

Katie you must have missed Jess Bravin talk about Squeaky on Cspan3. He said he had covered Gitmo detainee trials and noticed the terrorists wanted to go pro per in court(represent themselves). Radicals/zealots fear their message being watered down if they accept legal representation. ONLY they can properly state their case. A trial is a platform for their beliefs to be broadcasted. They do not recognize the authority of the courts. They have extreme paranoia and arrogance. A megalomania. This is why some don't want terrorists tried in civilian courts and succeeding in communicating their evil ideology. Some feel the acts of terrorists are not criminal offenses but rather their acts are military operations. There is also the trend of terrorists and zealots to hide their evil behind a smokescreen of legitimacy by using causes like ecology to gain the sympathies of the masses.

This technique is common now among extreme leftists who seek mainstream acceptance by gaining sympathy through sophistic techniques which are very cleverly interwoven into a hidden unspoken agenda. Our own federal government also uses these schemes now. Ecology and energy are smokescreens for Marxist and fascist ideological insertions into mainstream enlightened cultures.
Nah-h-h, they wouldn't do that. They just want to save the animals, water, trees and air.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, Warren Jeffs also wanted to represent himself. He's just a pedophile.

So did Ted Bundy. He was just a maniac.

And why did Squeaky think Charlie had cancer? Looks like she was getting the flim-flam.

Sounds like that guy on Seinfeld that pretended to have cancer to get a free "hair hat". LOL

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, the reason that Warren Jeffs wanted to represent himself was to cross examine the DA's witnesses and scare them to death.

Same with Charlie. Squeaky sees, Squeaky does. Copy cat.

MrPoirot said...

Not true Katie. Squeaky tried to subpoena Manson so he would have a platform to speak at her trial. Fanatics don't recognize the authority of the court. The court is just a platform to air their views.
Jeffs and Bundy had no ideology they wanted aired in court. They just want to scare people like you said.
The detainees, Manson and Squeaky have an ideology they want broadcasted. Squeaky has said herself she only pulled a gun on the prez to draw attention to her cause.

MrPoirot said...

Lynyrd if Squeaky does submit to an interview she violates the terms of her parole which has no expiration date.
Lynyrd can you find anybody who can get a copy of the terms of Squeaky's parole? I have also heard her parole was to last two years which means she can talk publically now.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, you're wrong. Jeffs wanted everyone to know that he was the KING of LDS. You haven't followed this case enough.

And what was Squeaky's cause again? And please don't say the environment. That's bullshit.

leary7 said...

Mr. P. and Katie are on fire. good stuff.
I said the same thing in a previous thread, Lynyrd. You're dead on, Manson has become a bore. There is literally nobody in the Family I wouldn't want to hear from before Charlie. Hell, interview Chuck Lovett - I still want to hear how he felt escaping from Hawthorne.
That's the stupefying aspect of the RS article - the writer honestly does seem to find both Manson and Star fascinating. They're just two colossal bores to me.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Poirot,

I've heard varying accounts, regarding Lynn's parole terms.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything concrete in writing.

My poll (on this thread) was simply hypothetical, anyway.
My point being, that Lynn Fromme may possibly be more interesting to watch in an interview, than Charles Manson (at this point).

If anyone has anything concrete regarding Lynn's parole terms, please email it to me.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand@gmail.com

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Leary said:
"There is literally nobody in the Family I wouldn't want to hear from before Charlie. Hell, interview Chuck Lovett - I still want to hear how he felt escaping from Hawthorne."

Generally speaking... I would agree.

A fresh face... a fresh viewpoint... and a fresh personality, would be... (for lack of better vernacular)... "refreshing". LOL!
(and potentially, more revealing).

Thing is:
We're not going to get any more information out of Manson, in a public interview.
It's not gonna happen.
That's the reality of it.

Moreover...
Even when Manson DOES drop tidbits of "the truth"... (and I'm sure he HAS, at times)... it's virtually impossible to separate those leads, from the tons of tales he spins.

katie8753 said...

What I'm trying to say is that there is no message.

Squeaky is a LOSER.

More tomorrow.

MrPoirot said...

Brian Davis had a great phone call he made to Squeaky. The part I liked was when Squeaky's biker beau told Brian he'd find him and come after him. Brian then says, "I'll help you find me!!"
This so confounded the biker beau that you could hear the guy gulp, pause and say in the form of a confused query, "you'll help me find you????"
That was pretty funny.

katie8753 said...

Okay I'm doing a thread tomorrow.

leary7 said...

We haven't heard from Gypsy in a long time. I wonder if she got slammed by old Family members or her present family for being so public there for awhile.

I never got around to that Brian Davis show much, or as much as I would have liked to. Sounds like he was pretty pro-active. I did listen to his interview with Stephanie Schram and thought it was excellent. I gotta pay more attention his next time around.

sunset77 said...

"Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme eluded the media as she left Fort Worth's Federal Medical Center Carswell in one of the many cars streaming in and out of the front gate Friday morning. She previously refused interview requests, and prison officials would not say where she planned to live or what she planned to do after more than 30 years behind bars."--MSN

(On Friday, August 14, 2009) "At 8 a.m., Ms. Fromme, 60, walked out of the Federal Medical Center Carswell, a prison and hospital complex in Fort Worth.

Citing privacy rules, federal officials would not say where Ms. Fromme, whose nickname is Squeaky, intended to live or who had picked her up, though they said she would be closely supervised.

“She is on parole for the rest of her life,” said Tom Hutchison, the chief of staff of the United States Parole Commission."--NY Times

From what I know of parole, there may be an entire slew of things that Fromme may be required to do or not do. Not talking to the media, not profiting from her crimes, not associating with current or former criminals, and/or many other things.

leary7 said...

The problem with Charlie, Lynyrd, is that he has no context. He has not evolved one iota in the last forty years. He's just a deluded psycho in a box.
The curiosity about Lynn and Mary and Ruth Ann etc etc is to see how far they have evolved from their "Star-like stage" of forty years ago. We know how Susan and Leslie and Pat evolved, but there is real mystery how/if the others regained their sanity. Hell, I'd even like to hear from the hated Clem just to see where his head is at these days.

christopher butche said...

I neglected to mention that Fromme first became eligible for parole in 1985 but declined to apply for it.

I didn't mention the Hoyt Burger incident because the charge was lessened from Attempted Murder to Preventing a Witness from Testifying.

She also had a robbery trial but it was a case of mistaken identity, so I didn't mention that either.

Fromme was acquitted because her attorney pointed out to the witness on the stand who had claimed it was Fromme, that Fromme had an X carved into her forehead. The witness agreed that the woman who robbed her store did not.

She was arrested at both Spahn and Barker Raids.

She was arrested for the Como jail break, but charges were dropped.

Many of her friends are serving multiple murder convictions.

Some of her friends are serving single murder convictions.



Mrstormsurge said...

You know I want to hear from Lynette!!

starship said...

My highly placed law enforcment type who I am in contact with now and again responded nicely to my request for info about Squeaky. She told me that she is indeed still living the quiet life in the area around Rome NY and that she hasn't caused any problems and that the law enforcement types generally leave her alone.

Unless, of course, a dignitary comes to town. Then they never let her out of their sight.

And its not as far fetched as it sounds at first that a dignitary may actually come to town as Rome, NY is still home at the old Griffis Air Force Base of the Eastern Air Defense Sector, which you may recall played a significant role in the drama surrounding the events of September, 11, 2001.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Sunset, Chris and Starship.
Great information updates!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Stormsurge... good to see you!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Nelson Mandela, the revered South African anti-apartheid icon who spent 27 years in prison, led his country to democracy and became its first black president, died today at home. He was 95.

katie8753 said...

Hi Stormy! Thanks for the update Starship.

I don't think Squeaky would talk even if she could. If she did I don't know if I would believe her, but I'd rather hear from her than Charlie's same ole rap.

It's too bad she threw most of her life away for nothing. I don't know why, but that's her prerogative.

MrPoirot said...


Starship said:
My highly placed law enforcment type who I am in contact with now and again responded nicely to my request for info about Squeaky. She told me that she is indeed still living the quiet life in the area around Rome NY and that she hasn't caused any problems and that the law enforcement types generally leave her alone.

Unless, of course, a dignitary comes to town. Then they never let her out of their sight.(end quote)

Poirot replies:

I always wondered why Lee Harvey Oswald, a known Russian defector, was free to roam(Rome) around in Dallas with JFK in town.

Why was Squeaky, a Manson girl known to be living in Sacramento, was roaming freely with the pres in town. Even with her bright red robe on, the secret serv failed to protect the president from her.


MrPoirot said...

Did Squeaky plan to shoot the president or not?
I think she believed the 1911 was loaded and ready to fire. Police found a single live round on the floor in her P Street apartment where she accidentally ejected it. If she had seen the round on the floor she would have known she didn't load the chamber. She would not have left a single, individual round on the floor unless it was a snafu.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I received an email this evening, from one of our readers.

The person noted, that Lynn resides in Marcy, NY.

MrPoirot said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcy,_New_York

Wikipedia lists Squeaky as the only notable resident of Marcy New York. Beware of what you read in Wikipedia.

leary7 said...

You wonder why a California girl who spent most of her adult life behind bars would want to live in the frigid north. I write this, of course, as I look out on a minus-9 with wind chill Minnesota night. But upstate New York is one of the most beautiful parts of U.S. - just not so much Dec-Feb. Of course the obvious answer is that she is there for her guy. Any info on him?

matt prokes said...

If I had to pick one of the family to interview it would be Steve Grogan.

MrPoirot said...

Her beau is an ex con who served 17 yrs for killing his brother n law. He must have been a pretty rough dude in his younger days to kill his sister's hubby. That is pretty bad. Unless she asked him to. Then it's not so bad.

christopher butche said...

A random google claims she moved from Marcy to Albany, dated 2010.

A post on youtube from the same year gives her address in Marcy.

sunset77 said...

Off topic comment:

Apparently, there is going to be some type of TV mini series over 2 nights this coming Sunday and Monday nights about Bonnie and Clyde. I keep seeing ads for it.

Bonnie Parker had a sister named Billie Jean Parker. She was married 3 times taking her husbands last name each time.

" Billie Mace was often mistaken for her older sister Bonnie. She was accused and charged
with the killings in Grapevine, TX of patrolmen Murphy and Wheeler. She attended Bonnie's
funeral in handcuffs and under guard and fainted upon viewing her sister's body in the
coffin. After the funeral Billie was returned to the Tarrant County jail. She was later
cleared of those murders and released. However, she served a sentence of one year and
one day at the Alderson Prison in W. Virginia on harboring charges for helping Bonnie
when she was burned."--Texas Hideout Website

Apparently, Bonnie Parker's sister was in the same Alderson WV prison Lynette Fromme was in years later.

A pic of Billie Jean Parker is HERE.

MrPoirot said...

Gee thanks Sunset. I wasn't familiar with Bonnie's sister. She is a nice looking petite gal like her big sis.
Bonnie had an obsession with Clyde similar to the obsession the Manson girls had with Charlie.
Stephanie Schram briefly described an instant long after breaking free from Charlie where even she herself was surprised that she still retained a strange and tenuous loyalty to Charlie.
Thus I have seen it written that though the CIA's MK Ultra program was a failure by the government that the private sector(i.e.Charlie) managed to succeed with the governments mind control experiment. Thus once again proving that capitalism works better than socialism.

Jeff Guinn has written books on Bonnie and Clyde as well as Manson. Both are rather topical imo.Guinn tends to spend 18 months on a book topic. This is hardly enough to be sufficient. I think this explains why Leary was disappointed with Guinn's Manson" book. The book doesn't reach the level of knowledge that Leary possesses.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Prokes!

Panamint Patty said...

Patty read somewhere that the Fingerlakes area is today's bastion of radical leftness, just like Berkeley was in the 60s. True?

Patty still hasn't shaken off the shock associated with seeing Squeaky at a Wal Mart. That was WEIRD.

MrPoirot said...

Lotta bistros there selling steaming hot borscht and hot water soup.

MrPoirot said...

There has been a complete turnaround in Squeaky's behavior. Back in the 1970s Squeaky horn in on every tv camera lens within 500 feet. Today she gets feisty even if someone requests a radio interview on the phone.
I never thought Squeaky could be de-radicalized. Now she acts like Howard Hughes did in his later years hiding in a Las Vegas penthouse.

Panamint Patty said...

Unless, of course, Walmart has superior dumpster pickins. Then it all makes sense.

Poirot...LPAO re: borscht

leary7 said...

Ah, Albany, the turf of author William Kennedy. A truly funky city.
Blanche, Clyde's sister-in-law, was the best looking, Sunset, and her story the most interesting I think.

bobby said...

Panamint Patty said...
Patty read somewhere that the Fingerlakes area is today's bastion of radical leftness,

Upstate NY Finger Lakes ? That"s where I Live, north end of Conesus lake. It's by far the Conservative part of the Empire State,

Panamint Patty said...

Patty knows nothing about upstate really, only been there once.

starship said...

Ithaca, NY located at the south end of Cayuga Lake and home to both Cornell University and Ithaca College is probably what they are referring to as far as being a left wing bastion. It is often referred to around here as the People's Republic of Ithaca.

Other than that, like Bobby said, I think the most of the area would be considered fairly conservative.

Mrstormsurge said...

I thought I had read somewhere that Lynette has some family in that area? Also, I thought I had read somewhere (yes, I know, the old friend of a friend reference), that CM calls up Lynette's guy and converses while Lynette listens in on the conversations.

Mrstormsurge said...

And hey back to Katie and Lynyrd. You guys done hit the BIG TIME !!!! Happy Holidays to you both and to all here. Thx for welcoming me here.

bobby said...

Thanks Starship, I was hoping you would add. Wiki say's that Upstate NY is half & half lib./cons. Most of upstate is rural and we like our guns !

katie8753 said...

Thanks Stormy!!! Happy holidays to you! :)

starship said...

Hey Bobby...nice to know you're around too. I have business in Rochester from time to time and love all the lakes and wineries and everything. I used to spend time in Bath as well.

And Patty, Marcy , NY which is near Rome, although not too far away really, is not in the Fingerlakes if you were trying to make a connection with Squeaky living among a bunch of lefties. And Where Squeaky lives it's real real conservative...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Happy Holidays Stormsurge!

Visit us, more often!

leary7 said...

This may seem like a flippant question, but I am seriously curious and would love to know what Mr p, brownrice starship and countless others think.

Is there a radical left in the USA today?

I mean there does not seem to be an equivalent of the Black Panther Party or the SDS or such. Has radicalism been marginalized?

I remember reading about a militant environmental group called EarthFirst or something that had attacked some chemical plants back in the 90's. But they seem to have disappeared.
If there is a "radical left" still hanging around, who are the figureheads and such.
Where have all the Deadheads gone??

katie8753 said...

Tonight on LMN there's a show about Charles Manson and then another one about The Manson Women. I think it starts 9pm central.

It may be stuff we've seen 100 times though....

MrPoirot said...

Leary there is no America. That country was taken over by the far left.

katie8753 said...

I watched that Manson Women show on LMN. I hadn't seen it before. There was a lot on there about Squeaky.

It said that she felt bad that she didn't participate in the TLB murders and that's why she did the Ford thing.

That's messed up. I sure hope she's free of Charlie now. What a waste of a good life.

Panamint Patty said...

There is a radical left. You will always have your nutbags with extreme perspectives, without them there'd be no middle ground, right? It takes all kids to make that perfect Gaussian curve. The problem is, with the internet, the nutbags can find each other more easily than ever before.

BTW thanks all for instructing Patty about upstate. WOOT

Panamint Patty said...

and...Earth First had a big presence at the leftie UC campus Patty attended until 1991. She has stickers deteriorating in her attic that read, "Do something for the earth. At night" that were given to her back then.

There was also a radical feminist group called The C*nts that would graffiti up the bike tunnels every so often...ah the good ole days. The borscht was fucking delicious back then.

leary7 said...

Ah, Mr P. - the far left in Hollywood? The far left in New York? The far left in Washington?

Do you consider Hillary and Bill part of the far left, because most analysis regards them as centrists.

Personally, Obama aside, I do think the conservative movement in this country is far stronger and more cohesive that the liberal left.
And I don't consider the 'far left' to be the equivalent of the 'radical left' - the difference being the degree of militancy.
When was America not a "leftist land" in your estimation. Would you go all the way back to the 30's or 40's?

Hey Katie, I watched a bit of that show too. I was struck by how truly gonzo Squeaky was/is. She's a total fruitcake.

MrPoirot said...

Hillary is not Bill. She is very far left and completely lacks his intelligence. It doesn't matter how far left she is though since immigration and abortion have achieved an overthrow. I would not use the word "centrist" anymore. The centrists are in the republican party but they don't use that word. When you hear someone call themselves a centrist they are lying to you.

I think Squeaky intended to kill Ford in order to achieve equal status with the imprisoned Manson followers who gave up their lives for Charlie. Sandra Good was very good at agitating Squeaky according to Jess Bravin. I still think it's funny to go shoot the prez but forget to load the gun. Oops!

katie8753 said...

Yeah Leary, Squeaky does seem to be missing a few screws. But look who she was hanging with. LOL.

You know what's weird? The NAACP stands for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. I thought they didn't like being called colored. Did I miss another paragraph?

katie8753 said...

I think the whole Democratic party is left wing.

MrPoirot said...

Does anyone know what religion Squeaky grew up as? Is she religious now? I assume she turned in her red robe from the Church of Charlie? I haven't seen Sandy wear her blue robe lately either. I kinda miss the days of Charlie's Nuns. The foto op at the cemetery those two pulled off was priceless.

leary7 said...

not to be gross, but how many times do you think Lynn had to give head to 80-year old George Spahn in order to keep the Family on the ranch? That would screw up a kid as much as the LSD don't ya think? But remember, she stapled up her arm long before she met Manson.

I'd say less than a 5% chance she is religious now, Mr P. - certainly not a churchgoer, we would have heard if she was attending a house of worship. Plus it doesn't fit her guy's M.O.

katie8753 said...

Leary, Squeaky claims that her Daddy was "abusing" her. I think that's bogus. Casey Anthony & Jodi Arias claimed the same thing.

I think what happened was her Daddy probably said "get a job" and since she wasn't in the mood, he kicked her out.

That happened a lot in the 60's.

As far as Sandy & Squeaky being Nuns because he named them colors, that's as funny as a heart attack.

They can dress up all they like, but they're still just his minions...plain and simple.

MrPoirot said...

Leary you don't think Squeaky's upbringing was religious? Both her parents names sound German so I'd guess she was catholic but I have never read any researcher mention her religious upbringing.
Squeaky's current beau had a bumper sticker on his SUV "Born Again Pagan".
When I notice basic personal information missing about a famous criminal it makes me suspicious. Why the omission I wonder? These omissions sometimes reveal a hidden bias.

leary7 said...

interesting info Mr P. But what would be the motivation for someone hiding a Catholic upbringing for Lynn. From a profile perspective I would think it would make her an even more interesting subject. I think it is possible that Lynn's parents were religious but I have a sense that she was rebellious at an early age. I've never read Brevin's book on her, I would think the info would be in there if anywhere.
I am more curious if her parents ever saw Lynn again after Manson found her on the curb. Did they attend her trial?
For some reason I have always been fascinated by the dynamics between an "average" family and a family member who became infamous. I caught a bit of the BTK movie tonight and the only real point of interest for me is if his wife and kids have had any contact with him since his arrest. Imagine growing up with a father or being married to a man everyone considered normal and then one day...boom, he is revealed as a true sub-human monster.
Some of my primary TLB curiosities revolve around questions like do Tex's siblings and offspring maintain contact with him. Is there a backstory to Mary's family apparently welcoming her back into the fold after her release from prison...and so on. Manson himself is so non-human, but there are many human aspects to the TLB story.

leary7 said...

Think about it....imagine if Lynn's father had a whole lot of Archie Bunker in him (mine did). Imagine Archie trying to deal with or get a handle on a daughter like Lynn, who exhibited bizarre behavior even before Manson got ahold of her.

Mrstormsurge said...

Lynette iirc was shooting staples into her arm before she met Manson. Chick either had some "issues" or office supplies were a lot cheaper back then.

MrPoirot said...

Some of the things I wonder about criminal are things such as: is Mary watching the Wisconsin vs South Carolina in the Capital One Bowl this year?
Leary I have read where Squeaky's Dad visited her in prison. I have never read a single bit of info on Squeaky's Mom yet she was closer to her Mom than her Dad. I think Squeaky's relationship with her Mom is more crucial to who Squeaky became.

katie8753 said...

Stormy, staples? HA HA HA.

These people seeped together like liquid seeping into a dirty crack. Same thang. Yeah.

katie8753 said...

And now a word from our sponsor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z1Krfww5eE

LOL.

beauders said...

Katie I wrote to Lynette in late 90's after Bravin's book came out. She was very nice and intelligent. I told her at one point that whoever gave Bravin the info. about Lynette's father sexually abusing her was probably lying as people did not speak about sex abuse at that period in time. She agreed with me and said her father did a lot bad things to her but he did not sexually abuse her.

beauders said...

Katie I wrote to Lynette in late 90's after Bravin's book came out. She was very nice and intelligent. I told her at one point that whoever gave Bravin the info. about Lynette's father sexually abusing her was probably lying as people did not speak about sex abuse at that period in time. She agreed with me and said her father did a lot bad things to her but he did not sexually abuse her.

MrPoirot said...

It was Squeaky herself who was the source of the rumor that she was sexually abused by her Dad. Bravin was merely repeating a lie Squeaky told about her Dad.

She once told a friend, "everything I learned about sex I learned from my Dad." This is from LSB3 Blog Mar 2012

That isn't the only time she made a statement like that. Squeaky liked to make herself the victim.

sunset77 said...

Completely off topic comment.

Apparently, he's back:

"With a purposeful grimace and a terrible sound
He pulls the spitting high-tension wires down"--Blue Oyster Cult

There's a news story on Yahoo this morning about a trailer for a new movie called "Godzilla 2014". The trailer is supposed to be out today, Tuesday, Dec. 10, 2013. Nearly all the links in that news story have been removed at the request of the studio however.

This might be the trailer HERE.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders!

bobby said...

i saw boc at a small theater in buffalo when they had that song out. the drum solo for that song was the best i ever saw. i think the opening band was girls school !

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset. I LOVE Godzilla. I really liked the last 1998 movie with Matthew Broderick. I cried when Godzilla got killed. Sob.

beauders said...

What is your source on Squeaky being the one who started the rumor about her father sexually abusing her?

MrPoirot said...

http://everything2.com/title/Lynette+%2522Squeaky%2522+Fromme

Here is one article however there is another story where Squeaky makes a statement incriminating her Dad for sexual abuse. Thus there are two accusations by Squeaky by Squeaky. I do not know where they originated. It is just my feeling that Squeaky herself made up these stories which then get recycled by various authors. In later years Squeaky denies sexual abuse occurred but fails to admit that she was the source of these false abuse stories. In her younger days she held a lot of anger at her Dad but as time went by she saw the need to correct her errant remarks.

sunset77 said...

Another off topic comment:

If anyone is interested in Bonnie and Clyde, just about everything you ever wanted to know about them can be found HERE.

I've been on that page for about 4 straight hours and I'm only about half way finished.

Raymond Hamilton was a member of the "Barrow Gang", apparently, he spent some time in the Collin County Prison in McKinney, Texas. A website about that jail says:

"Prison Alumni

Frank James was perhaps the Prison's most infamous 19th Century Guest.

In the early 20th Century, Ray Hamilton spent some time under Mr. West's supervision. A member of the Barrow Gang, Ray proved his criminal ineptitude by finding a way to get arrested usually within five minutes of arriving in a town. The second floor of the prison (to be the restaurant's kitchen) has a bar sawn halfway through by ol' Ray.

Charles "Tex" Watson of the Manson Group (not an investment firm) also spent time here awaiting extradition to California for his part in the Tate-LaBianca killings. Charles went to High School in nearby Farmersville."

Hamilton was executed in the electric chair in Huntsville Texas on May 10, 1935. His last words were, "Well. . . goodbye all".

bobby said...

Thanks for think link & info Sunset.

My feelings are hurt that no one was exited that I saw BOC & Girls School in concert in the 80's.

I guess i'm just not as cool as i thought.

LOL.

katie8753 said...

Bobby you're the coolest dude ever!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey Bob,

I saw BOC at a small venue in downtown Boston, in the mid-90's.

My brother was going to the show with a friend, and I jumped in the car (with them), at the last minute.

It was at a club called "The Channel".
It was a real shit hole.
The place was just a huge empty room, with no chairs.... no nothing.
Moreover, the walls, the ceiling and the floor, were all painted solid black.

It was one of those disgusting places, where your feet stick to the floor.
If they turned the lights on... I can only imagine, what you'd see in there.

The place was packed.
I'm sure those idiots broke every fire and police code, on the books.
They had sold so many tickets (to the show), that we were packed-in like sardines... just standing there... in the dark... sticking to the floor.

The back-up band was "Sweet".
They do that song "Love is like Oxygen".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRVwcPTnug8

BOC did "Fear the Reaper" and "Burning for You", etc.

The music was good, but the venue was borderline disturbing.

If I had known what I was in for... I wouldn't have bothered going.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Actually... it was probably late 80's - early 90's.

It's been so long now, it's hard to remember. LOL

MrPoirot said...

http://texashideout.tripod.com/failed.html

This link is from the Bonnie & Clyde site. If you go half way down the page you will see some 45cal ammo and two colt 1911 magazines. Nothing fantastic there.
However if you look at the ammo you will see a ring indented around each brass casing about half way down. This ring is only stamped into ammo designed for automatic weapons. This ammo isn't made to shoot in a semiauto pistol. Most likely this is ammo clyde stole from the armory they broke into. This style ammo tends to stick inside the chamber and cause jams unless used in automatic weapons.
That ring/indention expands up against the wall of the chamber when fired and acts to slow the extraction process. Only the military uses this type 45 cal ammo. This ammo is usually loaded very hot(extra powder)

starship said...

more cowbell

starship said...

Blue Oyster Cult with roots up north in Clayton, NY if I am not mistaken...decidedly not a pop or bubble gum type group. Buit SWEET on theother hand...Fox on the Run...

I knew a girl when I was in 8th grade who moved in from California. She was built like a 12th grader and claimed that she had had sex with the guys in the group. 8th grade...I guess it probably was bullshit. Hope so.

starship said...

What the hell, I think I'll google her and see what she is up to.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

LOL

Yeah Starship... get us an update.

: )

Panamint Patty said...

Y'all, Patty meant to say something about the Bravin book that she checked into earlier this month. Bravin wrote that in the 70's (before Squeaky pulled the gun), Sandy enrolled at CSU Sacramento to earn a master's in ethnobotany, and that her professors say she was a good student.

Patty was able to confirm from a botany professor who may be the oldest active faculty member in the entire system if there was ever, in the entire history of the CSUS, an ethnobotany program. There was not.

starship said...

So Bravin is not to be trusted? Shocker.

So Lynyrd, yes I googled her and she's actually sorta kinda famous as a rock dj and writer interviewer. Good for her!

MrPoirot said...

You're wrong Patty. Everybody knows what Ethnobotany is. Ethno is something to do with people and botany is about plants and pods. Sandra was studying the plant people from planet 9. It's like art history only you use a telescope instead of opera glasses.

Panamint Patty said...

*snort*

louis365 said...

LOL Mr. P

Panamint Patty said...

Isnt Planet 9 the new bastion of radical liberalness like Endor was in the last millenium?

Mrstormsurge said...

Lynette was fighting for the black olives to be let out of the can and for the green olives to stop hogging all the jars.

bobby said...

Patty,

Is Planet 9 code for the Finger Lakes in upstate NY ?

Panamint Patty said...

Yeah Patty is just being a wise ass.

To get back to the original post, Patty would love to hear from Squeaky this year.

bobby said...

I would like to hear from her & Sandy as well.

I fear that they don't have anything sensable to say if they did talk, kinda like Charlie.

By not speaking they continue to be interesting.

just thinking out loud

Rob King said...

Patty, Miss Crabtree over on your site seems highly knowledgeable. You know anything about her?
I just recently got a Kindle and the first book I downloaded was Helter Skelter because I hadn't read it in thirty odd years. I remember being transfixed by it as a teen but now I find the writing rather dry and pedantic. Of course that just makes me a grumpy old man, but it is written with a lawyer's mentality. I should have downloaded The Family instead as I don't think I've ever read that one.

leary7 said...

I've grown despairing that anyone from the Family is ever going to talk voluntarily. I've longed dreamed of a new trial or civil suit that would put Family folk back on the stand. But that ain't gonna happen.
What I don't understand is how nobody in the cable business seems to see that putting together a fivesome of say Squeaky, Cappy, Mary, Sandra and Gypsy wouldn't have a huge rating potential. Pay em each 10 grand and get somebody with balls like Chelsea Handler to moderate a round table discussion.
I get at least a hundred stations and at least twenty times a week I can't find a damn thing worth watching.
Ah well, a man can dream. If either Liz's site or this site, or maybe Cielo's, were ever really ambitious they should at least try and put together a podcast of the women before they all kick the bucket. There's gotta be at least one Mansonologist out there with some big bucks to back it.

MrPoirot said...

Panamint Patty said...
Yeah Patty is just being a wise ass.

To get back to the original post, Patty would love to hear from Squeaky this year(end quote)

Poirot replies:

I was wondering if the Rolling Stone was baiting Red and Blue with the news that Charlie/Star were getting hitched. Red and Blue have 45 yrs in prison total in support of Charlie but Star has no prison time served. It has to be driving Rolling Stone nuts that Red and Blue are behaving themselves.

leary7 said...

Really Mr P.? I think you 'jumped the shark' on that one my friend. I don't think Rolling Stone gives a shit about Red and Blue. Jann Werner probably views them as just a couple of batty old hags. The "hook" for the current RS article was this young Sadie look- alike being Charlie's main support and supposed wife-to-be.
That, in essence, was the crux of the story - that old decrepit Manson still had a way with the women. That is the irony of Red and Blue - they basically gave up their lives in support of Manson but Charlie has been clear on several occasions that old broads turn him off. He still likes em young. Odds are he couldn't even get it up over Red and Blue now. How do ya think that realization would make em feel?

MrPoirot said...

Leary I think it would make Red and Blue feel like clobbering Star with a hammer. 45 years in jail for nothing! Charlie turns out to be nothing but just another two bit phony liberal. Everything they stood for was empty rhetoric. Even Mick accepted a knighthood from the Queen. The Hippies just became another establishment and took away everyones incandescent light bulbs. Now Red and Blue are two old to read by neon light bulbs. Now there is nothing left for Red and Blue but growing old and realizing that Nixon was right all along.

leary7 said...

though I agree that the left has been thoroughly co-opted, knowing his pathology dem dar are chilling words - 'Nixon was right all along'.
At least you didn't say Curtis LeMay was right all along.

leary7 said...

Rolling Stone's targeted demographic is still the 16-30 crowd so there was no way they were going to "hook" an article on a decrepit old man and two batty old broads. Star gave the article some youthful weirdness.

I guess we'll have to wait for the "letters to the editors" to see if anyone from the Family was pissed off enough to write. My money would be on Cappy.

leary7 said...

And I'm still not sure that Red and Blue ever stood for anything except a delusional obsession with a charming psychopath. Maybe in their heads they convinced themselves they were radical environmentalists, but only about thirteen people in the whole world took them seriously.

MrPoirot said...

Funny you mention Curtis Lemay. He is involved in the TLB story too. Charlie knew him I think from his group sex escapades with the Hollywood types. Lemay was a democrat until George Wallace(also a democrat) ran for president and tabbed him for his VP as an independent.

katie8753 said...

Stormy!!! HA HA. What do you think she thinks about olive oil? And I mean the real stuff, not Popeye's stick-skinny girlfriend.

Leary, I doubt that "Red" and "Blue" (and I use those names loosely) are too worried about this article in RS. They're probably both sighing a relief that some newcomer is playing the parts they so gladly vacated. If nothing else, it takes the heat off them.

I can't help but think they ponder about their wasted lives, but I hope that somehow they can make the rest of it usable.

And yes, that environmental stuff was more of Charlie's nonsensical whimperings.

katie8753 said...

Charlie never mentioned this environmental crap until after he was convicted. I guess it was a "chick magnet" thing.

Just like Jodi Arias never mentioned "battered women's rights" until she was convicted. Maybe that's a "chick magnet" thing too. LOL.

The things convicted felons do.....

leary7 said...

Curtis LeMay Sexcapades???
I've really gotta start drinking again.

jeffrey jeff said...

Leary said:"Rolling Stone's targeted demographic is still the 16-30 crowd.....

Leary, I like one of the readers comments on the Rolling Stone piece.

He says:

Q: What's the difference between Charles Manson and Rolling Stone?

A: Charles Manson has at least one twenty-five year old fan.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bob said:
"I would like to hear from Lynn & Sandy as well. I fear that they don't have anything sensible to say if they did talk, kinda like Charlie, but by not speaking they continue to be interesting."

I agree.

It's the fact, that we HAVEN'T heard from Lynn (or Sandy) in so long... that makes the prospect of interviewing them, so appealing.
A 2014 interview would shed light on several "unknowns", which is the allure.

The main questions (regarding Lynn and Sandy) are:

Are they still insane?
Have their priorities changed?
Do they have any new objectives (besides the environmental movement)?
And of course... are they still loyal to Manson (and if so, to what extent)?

In contrast:
We hear from Manson... or more accurately, about Manson semi-regularly.
We KNOW what he's up to... and we KNOW that he hasn't changed a whole lot (if, at all).
Hence... there are no unknown variables (regarding Manson)... and another interview with him, simply means "more of the same".

I agree Bob.
It's all the "unknowns" that Lynn (and Sandy) present, which makes them a better interview (these days), than Manson.

Let's face it...
If Lynn and Sandy had semi-regular contact with the media (over the last 2 decades)... we'd already KNOW what they were currently up to (and where their heads were at)... and there'd be much less intrigue.

Personally, I find Lynn Fromme much more interesting than Sandra Good... but, that's just me.
Mainly because... I tend to believe, that Lynn has greater potential for change, than Sandy.
I have no basis for that assessment, other than my gut.

My honest guess, is that... if we heard from Lynn and Sandy a couple times... we'd quickly grow bored.
But until such time... yes... my mouth is watering... because the "unknown", is always more interesting, than the "known".
(Which is probably why, we all study this case, in the first place).

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Leary said:
"And I'm still not sure that Red and Blue ever stood for anything except a delusional obsession with a charming psychopath. Maybe in their heads they convinced themselves they were radical environmentalists, but only about thirteen people in the whole world took them seriously."

LOL!

Your statement rings with so much truth, that it's actually kinda humorous.
That's "calling a spade, a spade". LOL

leary7 said...

yeah, Lynyrd, that to me is the intrigue of it all - how (or do) these folk maintain their perspectives...how does Charlie continue to claim innocence, how does Tex maintain his Jesus posture, does Lynn still believe what happened on Cielo and Waverly was "the right thing to do because they believed it was right", does Cappy still wish she had gone along on the 8th and 9th and so on. Would Stephanie or Mary or Ruth Ann want to converse with Charlie one more time. Does Grogan have any cogent reflections? And on and on.

yeah, Jeff, I was talking through my hat there. I haven't paid much attention to print sales in years so I really have no idea who reads Rolling Stone anymore. I only read it if it's at my library. Haven't bought one in a decade or more.

katie8753 said...

Now Star is a radical environmentalist. And the beat goes on.....

Hey Leary have you been to my blog yet?

leary7 said...

yes Katie, love the color purple and the site is really well designed and fun. I shoulda posted over there and meant to. I will soon.
That was a bit of a sting getting attacked for asking for the blog address a few times. Strong meds really screw up the brain. I swear I forget to do fifty basic things a day. Today I went to church in 4 degree weather and forgot to put on socks. Never done that before. Maybe it is early Alzheimers. That's all I need. But I HAVE bookmarked your site in my favorites column.

leary7 said...

I am always intrigued when a poster seems to have 'inside info' or a special insight into TLB matters. That is why I asked Patty if she knew Miss Crabtree who seems to have a real handle on things. And Mr P always amazes me with his stuff - Curtis LeMay sex tapes!!!
I do wonder more and more though if Mansonology has played itself out. Allot of the really great posters don't come around anymore. Maybe there really is nothing new left to be said about TLB. Guinn's book seemed proof of that thesis.

Not to start another silly spat, but I am honestly curious - can any of you guys make sense of the stuff RH writes? His latest thread about 'Indians and knives' is so non-sensical I honestly wonder if his intent is farce. Not saying this to offend, just curious.

MrPoirot said...

Peter Otoole kicked the bucket. If you haven't seen it, watch "Laurence of Arabia": incredible movie that would cost $2bil if made today. Amazing story and cinematography. Nobody would be stupid enough to make a movie in Arabia today.
Best line from the movie: "as long as you continue to fight tribe against tribe you will remain a little people, a silly people; greedy, barborous and cruel.

MrPoirot said...

I got a copy of "My Life with Charles Manson" from the library. The first half of the book is a unique tale of Hippiedom at ground zero of the movement. I don't think the Viet Nam war had anything to do with Paul Watkin's decision to drop out and tune in. Drugs were the cause. He couldn't turn down a joint or hit of acid. One of the three best Charlie books.

leary7 said...

I just read a really ludicrous statement over on Liz's site. Some poster theorized that "even if Sharon had a gun it wouldn't have helped because she wouldn't have been able to get to it".
Says who???
Wouldn't the gun most likely have been in a bedside table drawer? And when Sadie appeared in her doorway and ordered Sharon and Jay to come to the living room wouldn't she have gone for said gun if there had been one?
Come to think of it, though I am not a gun person, it is LUDICROUS that Sharon did not have a gun. I am surprised her father didn't insist. With Roman away she was technically living alone in a secluded house with just a stoned-out weirdo caretaker around. Jay didn't live there and Victor and Abigail had their own place and really weren't supposed to still be there. Sharon should have had a gun, and two large dogs especially given the history of the house and how many bizarre characters had been there for parties and such.
What if Sharon had had a gun under her pillow or in her beside table? Or Abby had had one in her purse so that when she went to get her $72 she could have pulled it. Interesting to contemplate.

MrPoirot said...

Leary in 1969 nobody needed a gun. LOL! Then came Charlie.
There was a gun in the house; a 45 cal Roman owned but it was a presentation gun probably never fired. Leno had 14 guns in his house but they were historical cowboy pieces. Leno musta loved Westerns. I bet he had even been to Spahn Ranch.

leary7 said...

yeah, I get your point Mr P. - and then along came Charlie.

But I don't care if it was '69 or '59 or '29...a beautiful woman living alone (with her husband away allot) in a secluded house is just not common sense. Why have a locked gate (easily circumvented) and not have other protection - if not a gun then at least a couple of German Shepards. I don't fault Sharon, it probably wasn't her mindset to contemplate such measures. But her husband and father both had their heads up their asses.
Just one man opinion.
But what I really hate is the know-it-all presumptuous statements like the one I referenced. No one can say for certain what might have happened if Sharon had more protection. Jay certainly could have fought Susan in the doorway giving Sharon time to retrieve something. God bless Rosemary, she fought off Pat and Leslie to the point that Tex had to come in and do the job.
I know...coulda/shoulda. But it is interesting to imagine how American culture might have evolved differently had Sharon come up out of her bed blasting.

Or if Ella Jo had stopped when she fled Spahn and dropped a dime on what she knew about her friend Gary being butchered.
Or a thousand other things.

MrPoirot said...

That Monday night after the TLB murders everybody who had a gun got it out the drawer and had it at the ready. That may have been why the murders were stopped by Charlie.
Both Sharon and Gibby were probably very sheltered, anti gun types.

MrPoirot said...

I am surprised neither Frykow nor Sebring weren't armed since they both came in regular contact with druggies.
That being said, if I were in that house that night I wouldn't have had a gun either. Who would attack four adults in their home? That's crazy.

katie8753 said...

Leary, Sharon did have a gun but probably didn't even think about it initially.

These murders just took everyone by surprise. Even when Susan came in to the room and ordered Jay & Sharon into the living room, they were probably just curious and mildly irritated at first. I'm sure they had no idea that they would be dead in a matter of minutes. Who would have thought that a bunch of hippies would slaughter them like that.

But I agree, to say she wouldn't be able to get to the gun is silly.

Mr. P said: That Monday night after the TLB murders everybody who had a gun got it out the drawer and had it at the ready. That may have been why the murders were stopped by Charlie.

That's true Mr. P. And anyone who didn't own a gun owned one by Monday too. If Charlie had tried a third time they would have been gunned down on site.

katie8753 said...

If Leno had been as upset by the murders as Rosemary was, he probably would have been packing that night.

jeffrey jeff said...

Speaking of Leno's guns...It looks to me like he had several 1850 era Navy Colts. Don't know what their value was in 1969, but vintage Colts are worth a fortune in the gun collector market today.
This is from wikicollectors: However, examples of Colt 1851 Navy Revolvers are more common at firearms specialists, such as James D. Julia Inc., based in Maine. Results show that standard Colt 1851 Navy Revolvers made from 1847 to 1873 are typically priced from $50,000 to $100,000. The prices vary substantially and depend on the gun’s condition.

As much as the Family was into guns, I always wondered why they weren't tempted to grab a few of Leno's..

The excellent Cielodrive.com has a picture. The Navy Colts are the revolvers with the brass trim.

http://www.cielodrive.com/photo-archive/leno-labianca-guns.php

MrPoirot said...

It was Leslie who saw Leno's coin and gun collection in the closet taking some of the coins. Tex and Pat may not have gone into Leno's closet.