Sunday, June 9, 2013

Beating a Dead Horse...


Katie said:
"How do these killers get a pass?"

Do you realize how long these people have been in jail?
How is four decades in prison, a pass?

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Katie said:
"The punishment really has nothing to do with Manson. It has to do with the violent nature of the aggressive killing of the parties."

I agree, their original convictions were based on their own personal crimes and actions (and rightfully so)… but (I also believe) their continued incarceration (in some cases) is based on the notoriety of this case.
You speak as though, these folks have never been punished.
They've been in jail since Richard "Milhous" Nixon was president.

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Look...
In order to discuss this situation intelligently, it's impossible to lump all these inmates together.
Comparing Tex Watson to Leslie Van Houten is absurd.  It’s apples and oranges.

Tex Watson:

In regards to Tex Watson, I agree with You and Patrick Sequiera.

I believe the nature of Tex Watson's crimes are so abhorrently disgusting, that he should never be released... under any circumstances.

I believe as Sequiera stated, that Tex Watson's crimes are truly, an exception to the law guaranteeing the possibility of parole.

Pat Krenwinkel:

I believe Pat is genuinely remorseful.
I also believe, that she's no longer a threat to society.
I also believe, that she's well-grounded and intelligent.

Notwithstanding...
I believe the nature of her crimes (much like Tex) are prohibitive.

Again, I agree with You and Sequiera.

If they kept Pat Krenwinkel incarcerated forever (based solely on the gravity of her original crimes), I wouldn't have a problem with that.
In fact, I feel that would be just.

Charles Manson:

It all ended for him at the trial.

IF he played his cards correctly at the trial (and that's a BIG "IF"), he may not have been convicted so heavily.

As it turns out, he made every mistake imaginable during the trial.
So much so, one might even assume it was intentional.

Consequently, Bugliosi slammed him with 10 convictions.
NINE counts of first degree murder, and one count of conspiracy.
At that point, is was over.

Even if Manson served only ten years for each murder charge... that would be 90 years!
(And then, of course... there's that nasty conspiracy thing)

Manson is not worth discussing, from a "parole" standpoint.
He never was.

Bobby, Bruce and Leslie:

This is where it becomes subjective, with several questions to answer.

What is the "magic number"?
When is "enough" enough?

How much time does the average murderer actually serve in this country?
(Their "time served" should parallel that of their "criminal peers")

Are we honestly considering these folks for parole, or simply going through the motions?

But the "KEY" question is this:
Do Bobby, Bruce and Lesie fit the same description as Tex and Pat?
Are there crimes SO over-the-top heinous, that their right to a sincere parole consideration can be (for all intents and purposes) waived?
Most specifically... are their crimes SO heinous, that they should be considered an exception to the law guaranteeing the possibility of parole?? (as Seuqeira stated)

My answer to that question, is "NO".
Katie's answer to that question, would obviously be "YES".
That's our main "sticking point".

I think everyone would agree, that ten years in prison is certainly not enough "time served" for these crimes.

At 20 years?
You'd still get a nearly unanimous vote.  Not enough "time served".

At 30 years?
You'd get some discussion.

At 40 years?
The vote becomes split.
(That's a LOT of fucking time behind bars)

At 50 years?
Wow!

For me personally, 50 years is my cut-off.
At 50 years served (and that day WILL come), I truly believe, we will have embarked on the absurd.

When these folks have served 50+ years… there will be absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind, that these folks are truly "political prisoners".

Bottom Line folks:
The original crimes will never change… and the behavior of these inmates (in prison) will continue to be positive.  We have no reason to believe otherwise.
The ONLY "variable" left, is the passing of time.  How much time is really “enough”?  YOU decide!

Peace!
LynyrdSkynyrdBand

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ADDENDUM

Every time this conversation arises, Katie asks me the following question:
“Do you really believe these killers DESERVE to be released?

It’s a fair question, and here’s my answer:

No murderer truly deserves release, from a purely empirical standpoint.

(Empirical: Relying on experience or observation alone, without due regard for system and theory.) 

If we assume one life, equals one life... (which is a very safe assumption)... then quite simply, the answer is no.  No murderer deserves release.

Thing is...
The concept of parole (for murderers), is based upon a certain degree of "mercy", or "pardon".
Bugliosi has stated that himself, in the past.

If we gave murderers what they truly deserve... they would all be murdered upon conviction.
(And yes, some societies have operated that way)

But, as Mahatma Gandhi once said:
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

If we have no interest in extending mercy... then we shouldn't hold parole hearings for murderers at all.
(And, that's an option too)

I simply feel, that if we're going to offer an inmate the possibility of parole... we must observe that consideration in earnest.  To do otherwise, is to ignore our own laws.

49 comments:

St. Circumstance said...

very interesting stuff L/S- great thinking, and very fair perspective

I personally use Fairness as a baramoter.

we need to be as fair as possible to both sides.

the families of the victims feel that for the most part they were sentenced to die and they have been allowed to live full lives and in some cases marry and have children- to them serving out the rest of their lives is fair.

the convicted feel they have served their time and paid their price and it is fair to let them get out.

We as a society are asked to make a choice. We have two groups of people who want different things and ask us to make a fair choice.

No matter what we chose one side will feel it is not fair.

so how do make that choice???

I say personally- if we have to chose and we are going to end up unfair either way- lets err on the side of those harmed not those who harmed...

both sides wound up in a place where they are depending on us to make a choice BUT...

one side had the choice not to be in this position- and one side did not have any choice at all.

that is who gets my benefit of the doubt in a close call like this.

Thank you again L/S for some great food for thought, and very interesting piece.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thank You Saint.

You ROCK!

CarolMR said...

I agree with your assessment of who should be paroled and who shouldn't, Lynyrd. My true wish is that none of them would get parole, but after what I see on TV about how LITTLE time many murderers actually serve, maybe Leslie, Bobby, and Bruce should get some consideration from the parole board. The notoriety of the case and the fame of its victims is keeping them in prison. Not that I lose any sleep over it, but all things being equal, those three should probably be released.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Carol.

It's always a pleasure to see you.
I should say that more often... but, I'm saying it now.

Thanks for your input.

You ROCK!

katie8753 said...
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leary7 said...

I think most rationale people feel the same, i.e., that Manson, Tex and Pat do not deserve consideration but that Bobby, Leslie and Bruce do.

But really, how do we differentiate Leslie stabbing RoseMary 16 times and Pat stabbing Abigail X times 16. Does it really come down to algebra?
And what about Bobby torturing his friend Gary for a full day before plunging a knife into his chest. Is that really less horrific than what Pat did? I really don't know. Maybe.
Of course we could go round and around about what constitutes justice till the cows come home.

I really do wonder, if you could put the issue on a referendum, what the Cal public would vote on each of the TLB inmates being released.

Good stuff as usual LS, and a warm Tx hello Katie.

katie8753 said...
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St. Circumstance said...

;) Katie

katie8753 said...
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1nonbeliever said...

The biggest issue in this discussion that is missed is simple, we have laws on the books that spell out exact conditions that need to be met for a convict to be paroled.
Even though in some of Mansonites cases these conditions have been met and exceeded they are still denied parole.
The ones holding up parole, are now violating the law. Such actions should not be tolerated by any law abiding American. It does not really matter what you personally view of these matters, as a American citizen you should be outraged anytime someone in a position of power abuses their authority, regardless on whether it effects a smelly murderer or a law abiding citizen. it is not what THIS country is all about. We set up our society in a belief in our laws and also in the belief in compassion. Straying away from these virtues just because you are in a position to do so is paramount to the original crimes that were committed. If laws of the country are not followed to the extent that they were written, then all you are left with is anarchy and you will see all the Tex's climb out from under their rocks and then no one is safe.

CarolMR said...

Hi, Lynyrd and Katie!

CarolMR said...

"I think most rationale people feel the same, i.e., that Manson, Tex and Pat do not deserve consideration but that Bobby, Leslie and Bruce do.

But really, how do we differentiate Leslie stabbing RoseMary 16 times and Pat stabbing Abigail X times 16. Does it really come down to algebra?
And what about Bobby torturing his friend Gary for a full day before plunging a knife into his chest. Is that really less horrific than what Pat did? I really don't know. Maybe." - Leary

Oh, no - now I'm confused again.

katie8753 said...
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leary7 said...

You know, one thing that might be at play in the minds of the parole board that we don't talk about much is the length of time before Leslie et all became repentant for their deeds.
I truly believe both Pat and Leslie are now totally repentant, but how many years was it before they saw the light. I seem to recall Pat flashing signs and having a photo of Charlie up in her cell well into the late 70's.
Maybe CieloDrive or one of the other top researchers has a timeline of repentance for all the Family members. That would be an interesting chart.

katie8753 said...
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leary7 said...

Yes, Katie. that is EXACTLY the kind of dynamic of the TLB story that does fascinate me. Let's say Pat, whom I believe is both highly intelligent and repentant, did in fact kill believing in the race war. And now she believes she was duped and Charlie and/or Tex had a whole other agenda. Would or would not she be motivated to pursue "THE TRUTH" or would she just say to herself, fuck it, they got me and I'm gonna die in this box so what does it matter".
If Pat or Leslie even had an inkling that something more was happening those nights why would they not talk about it?

katie8753 said...
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candy and nuts said...

Still laughing at the picture must be a southpark hi KAtie and LYnard!!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey Candy!

Actually...
I think that IS from South Park! LOL!

There was another one, that was even funnier.

In the other one, the horse looks up and says:
"Really... you can stop hitting me now" LOL!

katie8753 said...
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GrumpFromPahrump said...

Hi St and Leary!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Grump from Pahrump!!

Welcome Brother!

katie8753 said...
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GrumpFromPahrump said...

katie8753 said...

I love your little poochie. LOL.

So did Buster!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

LOL!

Yeah...
I think Katie failed to blow-up Grump's avatar to full size. LOL

There's actually TWO dogs in that photo.. (making a third). LOL

katie8753 said...
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GrumpFromPahrump said...

Both Dogs are male by the way! Buster is the famous cadaver smelling dog.

I'm just making the rounds checking out different sites. It's summer in the desert so I'll be inside a lot.

St. Circumstance said...

Grump I was having one of my worst day ever and to be completely honest- I was as close as I have ever been to giving this up for good until you came in here and said hello to me...

And of all of the people I ever thought would be the person who would restore my faith lol- well lets just say I thought you liked me least for whatever reason...

I am not sure if I should be accepting visitors lol in someone else' room :)

Nor am I sure where I am wanted anymore period. probably mostly my fault. I have made a ton of bad decisions for sure.

But it is really nice to hear some friendly words right about now and I appreciate it.

GrumpFromPahrump said...

I just needed a few weeks to chill out myself.

"I'm Bing Crosby's reflection"

katie8753 said...
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LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Accepting visitors"... LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint... you'd accept visitors anywhere... who are you kidding? LOL

St. Circumstance said...

well it was an attempt to show some respect to you and the site and not be the pompous ass which seems to be rubbing people the wrong way...

but thanks Katie and Grump and you L/S for putting a smile back on my face :)

Now I can go back to being a pomp...

lol thanks guys

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

So Grump,

Any thoughts on the recent parole hearings?
(Bruce and Leslie specifically)

Should those two be considered "political prisoners" yet? ...or are they still just a couple of scumbags doing their deserved time?

katie8753 said...
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GrumpFromPahrump said...

katie8753 said...

Are you actually from Pahrump? Is that a town in CA?

Katie - Born and raised in NJ, did 24 years in the Air Force. I stayed in Calif for a few years so my son could finish High School there. Moved to Pahrump about 10 years ago.

Pahrump is in Nevada. I am about 35 miles north of Vegas, and about 20 miles from Shoshone Calif, another 10 miles to Tecopa from there. Forgot the most important - only 100 miles to Ballarat. Not much here, but we are home to the two famous legal brothels, Sherri's and The Chicken Ranch. We have a few nice casinos and a Wal Mart. All I could ever need. I have had some contact with the Watkins’ family, but that is private.

I'll let you know about my parole
feelings once I see how you treat others here. "Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more"

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Grump!

Wow... 24 years in the military?!
That's Awesome!
My hat is off to you.
Thank You for your dedicated service to our country!
You ROCK!

That's a very interesting area, you live in.

In my twenties... during my misspent youth (when I had nothing but time on my hands)... I visited Arizona for 6 weeks.

That was quite an experience.
I saw the Grand Canyon of course... the Indian Ruins... the Sedona "Red Rock" country... the "painted desert"... The Hoover Damn... "The Four Corners Monument" (the only place where 4 states meet...i.e., Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Utah)... geysers, a meteor crater, a lava flow... and the "Ghost Town" of Jerome.

Oddly enough... of all those awesome sites... one of the things that impressed me the most, was the cacti (cactuses).
Those things can grow HUGE!
Some of them, are as tall as two telephone poles.
I couldn't believe, when I saw them growing on the sides of mountains... and they weigh hundreds of pounds.
I saw a comical postcard of a fallen cactus, which had literally crushed a car. LOL

I don't know about today... but when I visited Arizona, it was still very much "the wild west".
It was definitely "a different world" out there.

Two quick stories:

I walked into a regular convenience store (like a 7-Eleven, Cumberland farms).
There were liquor bottles for sale behind the counter.
There were ALSO several rifles back there, with price tags on them.

I was like huh??
Liquor and firearms for sale, at the local bread and milk stop?

Anyway... I said to the cashier:
You can buy a bottle of whiskey, and a rifle here?

The cashier replied:
"Uh-ha". LOL!

Still kinda blown away... I responded:
"Jeez... you can buy a bottle of booze and a gun at a convenience store out here... and go home and shoot your wife? LOL

To which he keenly replied:
"Uh-ha", LOL!

I looked at my travel companion and said:
"Now, that's a man of few words". LOL!

Ahahahahaha
It was definitely "culture shock".

Story #2...

Then... we rented this 4-wheel drive Jeep.
We found this ravine/cliff area.
It was basically a swimming hole, carved into rocks.
There were about 50 people jumping off the cliffs into the water below.

I just kept thinking:
"Man... you'd NEVER see this in Massachusetts!"

If you go to a public beach in Mass, and venture beyond the orange rope in the water (LOL)... the lifeguards immediately start blowing whistles.
Chest-deep... that's it!

And believe me... in Massachusetts, if you swim anywhere other than a public beach it's considered "trespassing".
There isn't a single granule of sand in Massachusetts that isn't privately owned by somebody.

I just kept thinking:
"This place is SO remote... if anyone got injured, they'd have to be airlifted out of here".

It was definitely a different world out there!

Brothels, Bars, casinos and Wal-Mart, you say?
Maybe I WILL head west again, after all! LOLOL

Peace Grump!

BTW...
Feel free to give your opinion on any topic.
If Katie gets her panties in a bunch, I'll handle it. LOL!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

BTW Grump... just figured I'd mention:

You're most welcome to post anytime... but, being that I'm on the east coast... I'm 3 hours ahead of you time-wise... so, if you post after 8pm in Nevada (it's after 11pm here)... and consequently, you probably won't get a response from me, until the following day.

Just figured I'd mention that ahead, so you don't think I'm ignoring your post(s).

Peace!

leary7 said...

restoring faith....
great to see ya Grump. and the Saint as always.
that was a bad trip over there, no need for that kind of disrespect. It reminded me of my days in the JFK arena. Some folk, hell, allot of folk, used the uncertainty of JFK's death just to promote or espouse their own political or radical agendas. I can honestly tell you with personal knowledge that both the Kennedy AND Oswald families hated those folk. Likewise, I am wary of someone who comes onto a TLB blog to do the same.
Anyways, have no fears Mr. Grump. Lynyrd is an excellent bartender and the ever feisty Ms Katie sitting down at the end of the bar is always entertaining. there are loud conversations here from time to time, but one thing for sure, nobody is packin in here.
Plus we love hockey, Go B's.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

It all starts tonight Leary!

Game 1 - Wednesday 6/12/13

Chicago Blackhawks host Boston Bruins (8:00 p.m. ET, NBC/Live Extra)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

STANLEY CUP PLAYOFFS!!!!

katie8753 said...
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GrumpFromPahrump said...

We also have "The Devil's Hole" here, just a few miles from my house.

"What's so funny about Peace, Love and Understanding?"

leary7 said...

while I have great empathy for both Pat and Leslie, believing completely that both are 100% remorseful and repentant, if it had been available at the time I am certain both would have been sentenced to life without parole. Pam Smart, the schoolteacher in New Hampshire, that had her high school lover and a couple of his pals kill her husband, got that sentence.

It does beg the question though...what exactly could Leslie or Pat or Bruce do at this time to show more remorse or repentance? I mean it is almost like they don't need a lawyer for these parole hearings, they need a campaign manager.
Like Lynyrd has said many times, the best thing that could happen for Leslie, Bruce et all is for Charlie Manson to kick the bucket.

One thing I was wondering, and here is where I miss Mr Dilligaf, would there be any grounds for a civil suit by Leslie and/or Pat against Manson given that they believed they were acting on behalf of a race war when now there is supposed evidence that the motive for the killings is otherwise, i.e., Manson's supposed claim to Robert H and the promise to withhold till Charlies's death. I know that sounds ridiculous on the surface, but maybe that is exactly what Leslie should have done years ago to show the parole board how much she rejects and resents Manson now. Even if the suit was thrown out as frivolous it would have been a good PR move on her part. And that is what she and the others need at this point is some decent PR.

beauders said...

leary the difference between pam smart and van houten and krenwinkel was smart was the organizer. she planned and got her minions to kill her husband, she was in the manson role.