Saturday, April 27, 2013

TJ "the Terrible"... or Not?

As we all know... TJ had a pistol hidden in the back of his pants, during the Crowe incident.  

According to legend, Manson's task was to distract Crowe, so TJ could fire the weapon.  

Turns-out, TJ never pulled the pistol... and Manson ended-up shooting Crowe himself.


Did TJ simply "chicken-out"... or could it be, that Thomas Walleman wasn't so "Terrible", after all?

FAST FACT:  Page 380 of HS

"The gun Manson had shot Crowe with was the same .22 cal Longhorn revolver which, just over a month later, Tex Watson would use in the Tate homicides."

TJ died in a head-on collision with a Mac truck on June 7, 1995. He was 54 yrs old.

On the day of his death, He and Lori (Ansom13) had just had a horrible fight. TJ dropped her off at their home, and then sped away in anger. He was trying to pass a car on a curve in the road, and couldn't see the truck coming from around the bend. He couldn't get back into his lane fast enough to avoid the collision (according to witnesses). TJ and his pickup truck were burned, and all that was left of him intact, was one hand.

After a memorial for TJ, Lori spread half of his ashes (what could be salvaged from the wreckage) in the desert.  The other half of TJ's ashes, were brought to Tom's family in Reno, NV.  His ashes are interred in the Veteran's Memorial Cemetery in Fernley, NV. 

TJ and Lori did marry, and had 4 children: Aslan, Light, Rivers and Shani Lynn. (Shani Lynn is the little girl that used to play chess with Manson in jail).  Lori died of cancer in October of 1998. She was in her early 30's. She was about 20 years younger than TJ.  

TJ has two other children by his first wife Barbara Rosenberg (Rainbow or Bo).  They had two daughters: Yana Mani and Domani.

FAST FACT:
According to Bill Nelson (in his book)... TJ purchased the truck from him.

Northern Nevada Veterans Memorial Cemetery 
Fernley, Nevada 

Plot: Section 1A Site 826

59 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Or...

Was TJ so stoned, he couldn't remember the plan? LOL!

In every piece of video footage I've ever seen of TJ... he's completely shnockered.
I think he was operating on one brain cell, most of the time.
He probably just forgot, that the gun was in his pants.

He brings new context to the phrase "comfortably numb".

Have you guys watched the Hendrickson footage, where TJ is caressing Mary's hand?
He looks downright delirious.
He's practically drooling on himself. LOL

In this interview clip, he manages to say absolutely nothing for 3 minutes straight.
That's gotta be some kind of record. LOL

He has a little bit of a pulse, on that stupid "reunion" show.
It's the only time, I've ever seen TJ make some pretty good points... (or, actually say anything, for that matter)...

Doesn't make him a bad guy, I guess...

At the end of the day, he didn't shoot Crowe... so, I guess that's to his credit.

matt prokes said...

Yani Mani and Domani?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Well, it beats Zezozose (or, whatever the heck it was...) Zadfrack Glutz. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Winnie the Pooh... LOL

katie8753 said...

Wow talk about my most "forgettable character". You can almost hear the tumblers clicking in his brain. LOL.

It’s like your father in the book says that I’ll come to you when your last fear is gone, that fear being death, and when you give up the fear of death you become one with the universe.

Huh? What book?

Justification is just whatever happens.

That's how Merriam-Webster's defines it! LOL.

matt prokes said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...Well, it beats Zezozose (or, whatever the heck it was...) Zadfrack Glutz.

Thats true....but I'll bet Yani Mani and Domani still got their balls busted on the playground.
Why give kids screwed up names like that?
Why couldn't they have been named Dweezil or Pooh Bear...You know,something normal.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

LOL

I once new a guy named Americo Sassamero. LOL

How would you like to go through life, with that tag?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I always found his wife Ansom13 kinda attractive... and honestly... I have no idea why.
It's not like she was a particularly beautiful woman.

I think it was the way she moved her mouth, when she talked.
Did she wear braces, or something?
I have no idea.
As you can see... I just can't put a finger on it. LOL!

I guess I just like redheads...

katie8753 said...

How about Aslan, Light and Rivers??

If I named my kids names like that I'd have to have them wear name tags so I could remember what they were.

katie8753 said...

Boy, you survive Vietnam in the Marine Corps, survive the Manson Family and then die in a car wreck because you've got some road rage. What are the odds?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

George Spahn named his kids after his horses...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I made a few typos on the thread.
I was typing fast.

My apologies... they're corrected...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

WOOPS!

TJ and Lori also had a daughter named Shani Lynn.
I don't know how I missed that...

She's the little girl that used to play chess with Manson in jail.

Tough day... LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

OK...
The thread looks correct now.

katie8753 said...

She played Chess with Manson in jail???

Lynyrd you did a great job! Thanks!! :)

katie8753 said...

Okay well I'm gonna make a couple statements before I retire for the evening.

First of all, Jodi Arias has been proven to be a Three Hole Wonder. Oh wait...wrong card. HA HA.

Well it's evident that Charlie did tell folks what to do. He told TJ to pull the gun out and shoot Crowe.

He told Bobby to go to Hinman's and get his money.

He told Tex to go to "the place Melcher used to live and kill everyone there".

He told the girls to "go with Tex and do what Tex tells you to do."

He told Pat & Leslie to go into the LaBianca house and do what Tex says.

It's so obvious, apparent and completely visible that Charlie DID tell everyone in the family what to do.

Okay, that's all for today. Lamb Chop gives a big kiss g'night. :)

katie8753 said...

George Jones died, and I want to pay a tribute to one of my heros.

His song "He Stopped Loving Her Today" is chilling now.

God Bless Him. He was truly a country wonder!! I've loved him for years!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R2F9f2Cl6Y

louis365 said...

One hand TJ

St. Circumstance said...

interesting post...

I think that scene you describe L/S is one of the weirdest things in the whole Hendrickson Documentary.

The way he sits there and just rubs Mary's hands with that shit eating grin freaks me out almost as much as the opening scene with the three girls holding the rifles and staring into the camera with the zombie looks....

I think, personally, he was more or less another scumbag who spent the better part of his life wasting it.

BUT- I think him leaving Charlie out to dry when it came time to cross the line was a HUGE thing for him to do. It led directly to him having to flee for awhile, and he was able to do one thing that many of the others were not...

For a guy who was that dedicated, and looked and acted the way he did to be able to say no is impressive to me.

A huge number of people- including some of the killers themselves place much of the blame on pressure and Charlies influence in combination with drugs and the times and blah blah blah...

But here is evidence that anyone of them could have done the right thing. Any argument about brainwashing has to end right here with T.J. because certainly he was one of the most ardent and complete followers both before and after the crimes...

and TJ did not follow orders and kill....

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Valid analysis SaintC.
Good point.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Them fucking fruitcakes.. could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."

LMFAO!
That one, just never gets old. Ahahahaha


“Look... I'm no idiot... I got a college degree... and I know a few little fucking things about life, and law, and myself... and I know people when they're nuts."

BWahahahaha

“You can’t ascribe reason to crazy people.”

Ahahahahaha

I STILL listen to that audio footage, when I need a good laugh!

Harold True Rocks!


That's a lead fucking balloon"

MWahahahaha

Do you smoke?
Then go out to the Indian reservation, and start sending smoke signals... 'cuz that's where Krieger is..."


LMFBO!

Mrstormsurge said...

Schnockered

LOL

Good one, Lynyrd!!

katie8753 said...

What about breakfast and lunch, why call it brunch?

What about lunch and dinner? Why don't you call it Linner?

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...
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candy and nuts said...

LS as a daughter of a USMC staff seargan MArine DMT to call out him as a scumabg as ST CIR said this is going way to far he was prolly drafted he served in the Marines I mean how more can you take it now you allow someone who served this country to be insulted thats shameful ANd lynard you agree with ST ? I would surmise even KATIE wouldnt go that far when whatever TJ did after he got out of the service he WAS there I TAKE A HUGE OFFENSE to call TK a scumbag when this man when to war ina draft he never wanted to be in

strix aluco said...

Just a quickie,please does anyone know where I could find copies of the Hendrickson films? Being in the UK makes things hard to say the least.Over decades I have sourced tons of stuff but I would love to see these films.Any ideas folks, any one else from the Uk on here who may have a clue?.
Thanks .

St. Circumstance said...

Strix- You can get the combo of the original documentary along with his second one-"Inside the Manson Gang" on Hendrickson's site- or info may be still on Charles Manson.com

Candy-

May Grandfather on both sides- my dad and myself all served in the military. You think we didn't meet total scumbags?

Whilst in the navy I met guys who took advantage, and slushed money to young sailors who had no financial savy- guys who sold drugs on the boat while at sea, and saw about 200 people cheat on their wives and girlfriends every time our ship hit a new port. guys who wouldnt take showers until the whole living area stunk and we had to shame them into the water for the greater good, guys who beat there spouses and abandoned their kids....

You should probably realize that the best and brightest of our country aren't the majority of people enlisting in the military, and I am quite sure TJ was not an officer.

Not to say there aren't some great people serving- I did lol- but their are all kinds of people in the military- just like in all other walks of life.

Giving someone a free pass because they were in the military would grant immunity to some very very bad people..

The way TJ lived his life and the choices he made are his to own. I am making my own comments about what I saw and read of him. People can and do give the opinions of me at times which are similar or worse. If TJ lived a clean,productive positive life- I promise I would point that out, just as I pointed out how really impressed I am he was able to " Just say no" to Charlie...

But I have seen enough interviews with him, and read enough about him to know he was a dirty, scummy kind of guy. The videos I have seen of him are just freaky to be honest. He makes no attempt to come across as respectable, so I make no attempt to hide what I feel...

But I respect you and am sorry I that opinion is offensive to you...

St. Circumstance said...

PS-

him being drafted is not an excuse to pretend he isn't what he is either...

Because he had to do something he didn't want to do- which many of his peers were also forced to do-

does not give him carte blanche the rest of his life to live and act anyway he wants without repercussion....

I appreciate your dad and my dads service to our country very much.

I appreciate TJ's service very much, and the fact that he didnt shoot Crowe...

but he was what he was...

candy and nuts said...

St I really dont know what TJ ever did to be deemed in your eyes a scumbag but thats your truth in your eyes St sometimes you get a bit too pious for your own good

St. Circumstance said...

wont hijack this blog- but will leave you with this final thought and then let others comment...

does being in the military or serving mean you cant be a bad guy ever in life?? would it be wrong to call some of these guys scumbags???


In the 53 years that separate Mr. Unruh from Mr. Muhammad, hundreds of Americans have lost their minds and used guns to cause multiple deaths. One thing unites almost all of them: military training.

Mr. Muhammad served in the Persian Gulf war, as did Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber. Both received weapons training and basic military training designed to psychologically condition soldiers to kill. They are far from alone.

Serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer received military training in Texas and Alabama. David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" killer, was an army veteran. Charles Whitman, who killed 16 people and injured 31 in a 1961 sniper-shooting rampage from the top of a tower in Austin, Tex., had just been discharged from the U.S. Marines. Arthur Shawcross, who killed 12 people, was a Vietnam veteran.

St. Circumstance said...

I agree- I am working on it...

truth be told- I wasn't always a Saint in my life either lol

But the way he presents himself and looks- drew a natural, honest reaction...

BUT I could have worded myself a little better and not so condescending to a guy who ultimately never really hurt anyone as far as I know...

like I said- I am working on it...

:)

katie8753 said...

I don't know if TJ was a scumbag or not, but the fact that he hung around the Manson family doesn't speak highly of him. He knew they were thieves.

bobby said...

St. You amaze me often with your wisdom.

TJ reminds me of some of the really crazy dudes i have hung around in my life.

likely a very good person under a very scary exterior.

That is just a gut feeling , no fact behind it.

Compared to these two MF's in Boston he is a St. just for perspective.

St. Circumstance said...

Thanks Bobby!!!!

:)

katie8753 said...

St. Circumstance, I re-read your first post and I find nothing wrong with it at all. You were commending TJ for not following Charlie's orders to kill Crowe.

I don't know why Candy & Nuts took offense to one word out of that post. I don't think it was offensive at all.

In fact, as I said, TJ's hanging around with a bunch of known thieves pretty much shows that he wasn't a "model citizen or had moral character", whether he killed folks or not.

St. Circumstance, you have no need to apologize. :)

BOBBY!!!!!!

St. Circumstance said...

TY for the support Katie :)

katie8753 said...

St. Circumstance, I'm ALWAYS in your corner. I "get" you! I've got your back Jack.

High five....on the back side.

LOL.

St. Circumstance said...

;)

revatron said...

If you're in the LA area Manson the Hendrickson movie will be playing next month at the Cinefamily.
Not my favorite place to see a movie, too many "hip" people. But there it is if any of you want to see it on the big screen

sunset77 said...

I ran across that story about TJ's death about 1 year ago, I sent an e-mail to the person that posted it. They asked I not use their name so I won't.

One thing that person said, was that Manson was very angry with Melcher about the record contract. Another relative told me the same thing in another e-mail. Of course that's common knowledge, but I did hear the same thing from 2 different people that apparently were somewhat closely related to the case.

My own personal opinion is that TJ simply wasn't a killer. I think he drove the getaway car when Watson burned Crowe and went back later with Manson. My guess is that TJ had been in the military and he'd simply had enough violence, that's why he was in a hippie commune. He simply didn't want to shoot that Crowe dude.

katie8753 said...

Sunset said: One thing that person said, was that Manson was very angry with Melcher about the record contract. Another relative told me the same thing in another e-mail.

Thanks Sunset. This is what I've been saying all along. This is the reason for the Cielo Drive killings. Charlie was mad at Melcher.

There are a variety of people who want you to believe that the murders at Cielo Drive were due to the fact that Voytek was a drug dealer. And that Folger was funding it.

This is not true.

Let me ask a question. If the murders at Cielo Drive were due to Voytek being a drug dealer, then why not, when they entered the house and saw Voytek on the couch, just shoot him and leave? Why kill everyone else?

And if Abigail was funding Voytek on his new "drug job", why was she telling her shrink every day that she wanted to be rid of him? It's in the first police report. Read it.

Major snafu on that stupid theory....

katie8753 said...

Okay breaking news....

Jodi Arias, according to poor, cute, defenseless Travis, is still a 3-hole wonder, a porn star, a whore, a slut, a psycho, a liar, a sociopath, had less conscious than Hitler, and an expert in K-Y Jelly.

Questions from the defense??? LOL.

1nonbeliever said...

Let me ask a question. If the murders at Cielo Drive were due to Voytek being a drug dealer, then why not, when they entered the house and saw Voytek on the couch, just shoot him and leave? Why kill everyone else?

Oh maybe he didn't want to leave witnesses, What exactly would be the benefit for him to kill Voytek and then allow the people who saw him do the killing walk away with their lives???

And if Abigail was funding Voytek on his new "drug job", why was she telling her shrink every day that she wanted to be rid of him? It's in the first police report. Read it.
If you were caught in a position that you were funding your boyfriends illegal activity, wouldn't you be telling people you wanted to get rid of him also??

Major snafu on that stupid theory....

Not a stupid theory, actually it is quite plausible, a stupid theory would be Helter Skelter.

retaliation to Terry Melcher doesn't really make sense since they KNEW he was no longer living at Cielo and they KNEW the address of his new residence.

katie8753 said...

Hi Nonbeliever.

Oh maybe he didn't want to leave witnesses

Why didn't they just wear masks? Voytek was the first one they encountered and he was by himself. Why not just shoot him and leave? No one would even know who they were.

If you were caught in a position that you were funding your boyfriends illegal activity, wouldn't you be telling people you wanted to get rid of him also??

She wasn't telling people she wanted to be rid of him, she was telling her shrink that in her sessions.

Funding his drug dealing job wouldn't be a way to get rid of him, it would be a way to keep him hanging on.

retaliation to Terry Melcher doesn't really make sense since they KNEW he was no longer living at Cielo and they KNEW the address of his new residence.

Charlie knew where Terry lived, but are you sure that Tex did? I think the house on Cielo Drive was hit because it represented rejection to Charlie.

Tex knew where the Cielo Drive house was, he had already been in there many times, and it was relatively isolated. It would be easier for Charlie to order a hit on Cielo Drive because he wouldn't have to explain to Tex where it was, plus the house where Terry was living in at Malibu might not have been so isolated. In fact, on a Friday night, the beach might have been covered with partiers.

The whole thing boils down to this. I believe the people at Cielo Drive were killed because Charlie was pissed off, not because of any drug dealings.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

SaintC said:

"BUT- I think him leaving Charlie out to dry when it came time to cross the line was a HUGE thing for him to do. It led directly to him having to flee for awhile, and he was able to do one thing that many of the others were not...

For a guy who was that dedicated, and looked and acted the way he did to be able to say no is impressive to me.

A huge number of people- including some of the killers themselves place much of the blame on pressure and Charlies influence in combination with drugs and the times and blah blah blah...

But here is evidence that anyone of them could have done the right thing. Any argument about brainwashing has to end right here with T.J. because certainly he was one of the most ardent and complete followers both before and after the crimes...

and TJ did not follow orders and kill...."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Candy and Nuts:

Allow me to clarify.

That there (above)... is the portion of Saint's original commentary... which I agree with.

I think it's significant, that TJ didn't kill Crowe (according to plan).

(Let's face it... many of the other "family members"... placed in that same situation... probably would have shot Bernard Crowe).

TJ was certainly capable of shooting a man, with a pistol.
He was military-trained.
Yet... he didn't.
That's significant.

In fact...
According to TJ's own testimony, he was associated with Charles Manson (and company), for 3 1/2 years.

In that time... to my knowledge... TJ was never directly involved in anyone's murder.

Again... I believe that's significant, in terms of his character.

Come to think of it... I can't recall TJ getting arrested at all, in those 3 1/2 years.
Anyone?

The Bottom Line:
TJ was by no means an "Angel".
He was clearly associating with criminals (and "by association" criminal activity).
He was condoning and defending criminal behavior (up to, and including murder)... during... and after the fact.

But, having said that:
It seems fairly clear, that TJ was not the killing sort.
It also seems fairly clear, that TJ avoided "personal involvement" in crime, when possible.

He didn't appear to have a proclivity for committing crimes himself... that's true.
That of course, is to his credit.
Unfortunately, he associated with (and defended) criminals (and criminal activity)... including murderers.

Take from it, what you will...

For the record, I never called TJ a scumbag.
You're putting words in my mouth.

My final assessment:
TJ certainly wasn't the biggest "scumbag" of the group... but, he was no "Mary Poppins" either.

"It is, what it is".
I'm simply conveying reality.

His military service, will always be to his credit.

beauders said...

t.j. also left the family after the crowe incident. he did not come back until the murders and everyone was in trouble. i personally think t.j. saw enough violence in vietnam and didn't want to be around violence, that is to his credit.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

BEAUDERS!!!

1nonbeliever said...

Katie, you bring up some interesting points. I am just not ready to totally discount any motives except the Helter Skelter fairy tale. But your idea is just as plausible as the others and does fit with some of the facts we know. I just have always had a feeling that I can not shake(call it sixth sense or whatever) that not only was Tex stab happy but he had more to do with the motive than we have ever been told. Thank you for discussing this point with me, rock on

katie8753 said...

Thanks Nonbeliever. I don't subscribe to the Helter Skelter theory either. :)

candy and nuts said...

Katie while I can appreciate you comments about ST C post and mine I would think you are intelligent enough to understand my position KAtie as much as you may be involved in this blog perhaps you should let others talk it out and not get involved in everything other posters are saying let this be a blog we all can talk not just you

katie8753 said...

Candy, I agree and you are 100% right. It's just that I have an affinity to St. Circumstance. He has come to my rescue many times and I think he's a great guy.

But as you say...I should just let the bloggers talk amongst themselves on a certain issue that's brought up.

Now that I've had my say, please carry on. :)

katie8753 said...

And I'll say just one more thing. As I stated before, I read St. Circumstance's post and didn't find anything derogatory about it. And I stated my opinion regarding that.

But if you and he want to continue to debate it, please do. I've already stated my opinion about that and I'll stay out of it.

candy and nuts said...

Katie you have your opinion I have mine I know youre well versed in Mansology and I appreciate it if you let other bloggers sort their differences that is very big of you'

katie8753 said...

Candy, continue on. You have Carte Blanche.

I'm coming down with a cold I guess. Sneezing my head off. It's time to head for the bunkhouse.

I want to say some things about Tex, but will do so tomorrow.

Well, the jury is in deliberation in the Jodi Scarious trial. But Jodi's attorney made two things clear to the jury today:

(1) He doesn't like her and;

(2) She's still a 3-hole wonder.

I read a funny comment on the live HLN blog today:

"Why does the judge let Nurmi slouch down in his chair in the court room like he's slumping in the broken recliner in his living room in his boxer shorts watching a boxing match?"

That poor guy is like Jackie Childes in Seinfeld.

The Who?

HA HA HA HA.

Night y'all! :)

Unknown said...

Always find peoples speculation of everything interesting and diverse. Everybody does things that some others may see as foolish or whatever, but imagine all those moments of love, laughter, and bonding, that went on in between the things that everyone talks about. I know what its like to feel alone and hopeless, but when u find people who dont care about your baggage and Love u for u, you found family... Lol, i know, cliche, but everything I know about Charlie and TJ and Lori and Barbera and their incredible children they blessed into this world... There wasn't an evil bone in Tom's body.
Please pardon my rant, just always see stuff like this and never say anything. Wish mom and dad were just left on this earth a little longer...

Ps. Kids are mean when someone's differnt, but it just makes it better when eventually everyone tells you how awesome your name is. I thank God my names not John or Michael or David or anything other than what it is... Oh and its Asland, with a D on the end. Asland Sonrise Walleman. Look me up.

https://m.facebook.com/aslandsonrise?ref=bookmarks

Unknown said...

Who are you and where did you get this info

Unknown said...

Does anybody know the segment in a documentary or movie where the girls are walking down the spahn ranch pathway with a horse and carriage singing always is forever ????