Monday, January 21, 2013

The Ultimate Evil by Maury Terry- Part 1

For a long time now, I've been wanting to do a post on Maury Terry's book "The Ultimate Evil".  The problem has been, how to go about it.  If I tried to tackle all the information that relates to the Manson family in one post, it would take up a ton of space, and get me more confused than I usually am.  So what I've decided to do, is break things down into 2 or 3 posts, and delve into each subject seperately.

I tried to find a .pdf file of the updated book, but all I could find was the original paperback, which still has information on Bill Mentzers relationship to Manson via The Process Church of Final Judgement.

More than that, it's a great True Crime book that pretty much proves that David Berkowitz didn't act alone in the Son of Sam murders.
Here is the pdf file for the original paperback:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwZL_QI2UVrbZWlqV2JKRExSSHc/edit

As an extra, I uploaded an A&E Investgative Reports Documentary about the case to my other YouTube Channel.  I don't think there's any Manson information in the Documentary, but it's pretty interesting anyway...

94 comments:

Doc Sierra said...

"The Ultimate Evil" is one of my all time favorite true crime books. Maury Terry has taken some heat over the years because of his "grand unification" theory about Satanists. I don't buy the the theory but I agree with you that he proved that Berkowitz didn't act alone. The Carr's were one trippy family. He also proved that Lamont really was a "big dummy".

Doc Sierra said...

Wow Matt. I just watched the video for the first time. I recommend it for anyone who's interested in the Son Of Sam case or the Process Church.

matt prokes said...

Doc Sierra said.. He also proved that Lamont really was a "big dummy"

Ain't that the Truth.
You'd figure after a job on a huge Sitcom the Guy could do better than a job as a 'driver'.

sunset77 said...

Thanx for the post, I'm very unfamiliar with Berkowitz. I've just watched the Bill Curtis YouTube vid, plus I checked out Berkowitz on Wikipedia. One thing I noticed Berkowitz inspired several songs.

One song was "Psycho Killer" by the "Talking Heads", that can be heard HERE.

Another thing I noticed in comparison to the Manson case, is the police seem to "believe" a number of Berkowitz's various stories.

Personally, I'm highly skeptical of any info that comes from the mouth of a person that wanders around blasting people with a .44 because his neighbors dog is possessed by a demon, as a general rule.

Doc Sierra said...

sunset77 said...

Thanx for the post, I'm very unfamiliar with Berkowitz.
----------------------------
Hi Sunset,
I highly recommend this book. There's a lot of detailed information about the case. There's also a lot of mention of the Process Church and Manson. I received it as a gift when it first came out and still have it. I've read it a couple of times. When I finish the book that I'm on now I might read it again.

CarolMR said...

I really loved this book when I read it many years ago. Maybe because I was born and raised in Brooklyn. Terry had me convinced that Berkowitz didn't act alone. I still believe that, basically. But my brother-in-law, who was a NYC police officer, was able to shred to pieces everything that Terry wrote that supposedly proved that there were other shooters. Just as an example, several girls who were shot and survived swore that Berkowitz was not the man who shot them. The descriptions they gave to the sketch artists did not look like Berkowitz. My brother-in-law said those pictures were a waste of time in many cases because the victims are in a state of shock and if the crime occurred at night, then all bets were off. He thought Maury Terry was crazy and that Berkowitz was the only shooter. There were many other examples in which he pointed out that Terry didn't know what he was talking about, especially in regards to police procedures, but it was so long ago that I can't remember them. I have to admit that after the Son of Sam story was no longer in the news, every murder of a young woman in the NY area was characterized by Terry as a Satanic killing. It got to be a bit much with him after a while. But I still liked the book.

CarolMR said...

I really loved this book when I read it many years ago. Maybe because I was born and raised in Brooklyn. Terry had me convinced that Berkowitz didn't act alone. I still believe that, basically. But my brother-in-law, who was a NYC police officer, was able to shred to pieces everything that Terry wrote that supposedly proved that there were other shooters. Just as an example, several girls who were shot and survived swore that Berkowitz was not the man who shot them. The descriptions they gave to the sketch artists did not look like Berkowitz. My brother-in-law said those pictures were a waste of time in many cases because the victims are in a state of shock and if the crime occurred at night, then all bets were off. He thought Maury Terry was crazy and that Berkowitz was the only shooter. There were many other examples in which he pointed out that Terry didn't know what he was talking about, especially in regards to police procedures, but it was so long ago that I can't remember them. I have to admit that after the Son of Sam story was no longer in the news, every murder of a young woman in the NY area was characterized by Terry as a Satanic killing. It got to be a bit much with him after a while. But I still liked the book.

Doc Sierra said...


January 21, 2013 at 12:49 PM
CarolMR
I have to admit that after the Son of Sam story was no longer in the news, every murder of a young woman in the NY area was characterized by Terry as a Satanic killing. It got to be a bit much with him after a while.
--------------------------------
I agree. His theory of the grand unification of Satanists was a blow to his credibility but I still believe a lot of what's in the book. The witness in Corvette at the Moskowitz killing got two good looks at the shooter and has said that he didn't believe then and doesn't believe now that Berkowitz was the shooter in that case.

matt prokes said...

sunset77 said...Personally, I'm highly skeptical of any info that comes from the mouth of a person that wanders around blasting people with a .44 because his neighbors dog is possessed by a demon, as a general rule
Berkowitz isn't using this story as a get out of jail free card.
Hes said Hes never getting out and he is guilty of murder in one or two of the cases and conspiracy in all of them.
Also compare a satanic talking dog to trying to start a race war as motive.
which is more believable?

Lauren Webster said...

I went to school with the D.A who handled the Son of Sam's trial-John Santucci's grandson, John Santucci the third. Nice guy, we used to get into political debates all the time.

Cease2 said...

Yeah Matt, UE is a great read. My first impression was "wow...there could be something to all this!"

The possible involvement of Sam Carr's sons is still IMO likely.

But on reflection, it seemed to me that Terry was concocting a sensational blockbuster to cash in on the 'satanic-panic' 80s zeitgeist, in that golden era of half-baked TV preachers such as the 2 Jims - Bakker and Swaggert.

CarolMR's bro-in-law is most likely correct that the differing police sketches are due to erroneous eyewitness accounts. Studies have found that eyewitness descriptions of perps are highly unreliable. And that is one of Terry's cornerstones.

Plus, Terry's "2" prison snitches are the combined statements of many convicts... no doubt stringing the author along for some smokes and a nice sitdown out of harm's way. And cobbling together many sources into 2 voices gives the impression that their various dark tales are related. Coaxing the reader into going along with the satanic-national-network idea.

But leaving aside all my reservations, it is a rip-roaring "part-true-crime" read. And that the terrible slaying of Arliss Perry is an 'unsolved' is truly tragic.

Cease2 said...


And Sunset... here's two more songs (by 2 of my faves) that refer to or mention Berkowitz ..."sON oF sAM" by Elliott Smith, and "Bag Lady" by Todd Rundgren.

leary7 said...

I know Lynyrd has a policy of not hijacking threads or going off topic, but I just finished reading something over on Cielo and had a question that is not worthy of a new thread but thought I would just ask it here.

The story of the kid that found the gun is a great example of police ineptitude. But what I was wondering is this - the newspaper story went into detail about the fingerprints found at Cielo and how a good many of them were unidentified. That is they didn't match the supects or the victims. Now of course they could have been just random visitors to the house, but my question is did the bungling police take the time to try and match them to any other Family members. WOuld this not have solved the mystery of wether Charlie and a couple of others ventured to Cielo immediately after the murders. They MUST HAVE tried to match them against Manson's, don't you think? But I wonder if they tried to match them against Nancy's or Grogan's. How would I find out if they tried or not? Where would that info be? Anyone?

leary7 said...

Nancy's, Grogan's and others would have their prints on file since they were all arrested at one time or another. I wonder if the Cielo Drive evidence and especially the fingerprints have been preserved. Wouldn't it just be the balls if 43 years later some intrepid forensic CSI junkie were able to match a fingerprint taken from Cielo with Nancy Pitman. I wonder if Vince could answer the question if prints were run against all Family members.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Srolling down, I thought:

Many of my favorite bloggers on this thead...

You guys ROCK!

katie8753 said...

Thanks Matt. Great stuff! I'll read this when I get a chance.

Leary, good question. I've always wondered why they didn't nab Tex right off the bat. His print was on the front door and Winny Chapman told them she had cleaned the door on August 8th so the print had to have been left after she cleaned it. Tex's prints were on file because of his Belladonna episode.

Doc Sierra said...

katie8753 said...

Thanks Matt. Great stuff! I'll read this when I get a chance.

Leary, good question. I've always wondered why they didn't nab Tex right off the bat. His print was on the front door and Winny Chapman told them she had cleaned the door on August 8th so the print had to have been left after she cleaned it. Tex's prints were on file because of his Belladonna episode.
-----------------------------
Back then there was no AFIS. They had to have a suspect to compare the print to or go over the more than a million prints on file one by one.

katie8753 said...

Oh thanks Doc. I didn't know that.

Cielodrive.Com said...

Leary, that stuff is still around. Whether it's been preserved or not all depends on your definition of preserved. Basically we are talking about stuff in envelopes within boxes. Any evidence you see pictured on my site was handled by my sister without gloves. Not that that would make a difference in your case because you're talking about the lift cards. But I'm pretty confident these prints were compared to everybody in the family.

sunset77 said...

Matt Prokes said:

Also compare a satanic talking dog to trying to start a race war as motive.
which is more believable?

My own personal opinion is that neither a race war or a talking satanic dog have anything to do with anything.

Charles Manson is not going to describe in detail how he and Watson meticulously planned the massacre at Cielo drive. (if in fact they did). Besides the 4 people, the '59 mudermobile rolled out of Spahn containing a length of rope and a pair of bolt cutters. That didn't happen by accident. Mr. Manson and Mr. Watson aren't going to talk about this though, they are going to talk about "black panthers", "helter skelter", "drug burns", "how much they love God" and things like that.

Berkowitz isn't going to describe in detail, his Charter Arms .44 Bulldog, how many times he shot each victim, where he purchased ammunition or things like that, he's going to talk about "talking satanic dogs", "satanic cults" and "the other people that did it".

A couple of days ago I read Jodi Arias said there were "2 other individuals" at her crime scene.

Are you noticing a pattern of what murderers say when confronted with overwhelming evidence?

matt prokes said...

I guess I was comparing Apples and Oranges...my bad.
I still think in the Son of Sam case there was enough there to to think that the cops might have rushed to judgement by buying into Berkowitz's crazy act without looking deeper into it.

MrPoirot said...

Berkowitz has said he made up the talking dog excuse.

katie8753 said...

And Casey Anthony made up the excuse that "Zanny the Nanny" stole her baby, all the while she knew that little Caylee was thrown in the woods with duct tape on her nose & mouth, covered with heart stickers, wrapped in a laundry bag from her own house.

After which she went to a "hot body contest".

matt prokes said...

MrPoirot said...Berkowitz has said he made up the talking dog excuse.

Thats true but why.
Either He was trying to get a ride to a Mental hospital instead of Prison,which makes one wonder why He pled guilty to murder against his lawyers advice who wanted Him to go with the insanity defense.
Or...
He was covering up for others(for whatever reason) by sticking with the batshit crazy talking dog stuff and giving the NYPD what they needed to close a case that they were under intense pressure to solve.

Doc Sierra said...

matt prokes said...

MrPoirot said...Berkowitz has said he made up the talking dog excuse.

Thats true but why.
Either He was trying to get a ride to a Mental hospital instead of Prison,which makes one wonder why He pled guilty to murder against his lawyers advice who wanted Him to go with the insanity defense.
Or...
He was covering up for others(for whatever reason) by sticking with the batshit crazy talking dog stuff and giving the NYPD what they needed to close a case that they were under intense pressure to solve.
------------------------------
I agree with the second part. After all, he has said that the cult had the names and addresses of all his family members.

beauders said...

maury terry's main source was ed sanders. he also was given misinformation by sandra good regarding the supposed lunch manson had in san francisco with folger and shea. i have a lot of questions about his sources, but i do find the arlis perry murder very interesting. i don't know if any of you know this but there are tunnels under the stanford campus and surrounding area's. i don't know if these played any role in perry's murder but i find it interesting. also perry's husband went on to psychiatry and worked with children that survived waco and the branch dividians.

matt prokes said...

Hey Beauders I've got another post in the pipeline concerning that meal in san francisco where I mention your sandy good as a source theory.
Where does that come from?Sanders?Good herself?
I did some searching for Terrys contact info to see if i could eliminate Sandra Good as the source for that story but Hes a very hard Man to find.I asked another Author about it and He didn't know where that story came from.
What good would it do Sandy Good to feed Terry that particular story?
In the updated book it says the source was someone who knew Manson and Folger.
Its strange how much inside information Berkowitz had about the Arliss Perry murder.

beauders said...

terry himself said sandra was the source/

leary7 said...

Katie, as Doc said, without a database they would have had to have an initial suspicion of Tex to pull out his prints. This is where folk like Melcher and Wilson etc who had a suspicion right away and didn't drop the dime really sucked. And also folk like Ella Jo who knew about Hinmann and didn't make the call.
If Cielo says she is pretty sure they tried to match the prints against everyone in the Family that is good enough for me. But a small part of my gut still thinks with the cops being so inept and there being so many unidentified prints (weird with a full time maid) that something might have been missed.
It's just hard for me to give up on my fantasy of one last Family trial.

katie8753 said...

Leary it's possible that some prints were missed. I think fingerprinting is a complex process and probably even more so back then.

If Charlie and someone else did go back to Cielo Drive to remove prints, I'm sure he probably made sure they didn't leave any.

CarolMR said...

It's been years since I've read this book, and only a small section deals with TLB, but one part that intrigued me was about Rosemary LaBianca. Mr. Terry gave his reasons why she put her dress over her nightgown - he believed she was on her way out when she was interrupted by the killers. If I remember correctly, Terry also believed that Rosemary was a drug dealer. I could be wrong; like I said, it's been many years.

matt prokes said...

beauders said...
terry himself said sandra was the source/
Where/when did He say that?

MrPoirot said...

The accusation by several writers that Rosemary delt drugs has never flown with me because there were no activities going on at the Labianca house that typically goes on with drug dealing in small or large scale dealing such as parties, unusual volume of guests, etc etc etc. The Labianca home activities were more in line with typical family stuff.

There is an old saying amongst deer and squirrel hunters: they can't be there without leaving signs. Squirrels leave nests and deers scrape off bark when rutting.

matt prokes said...

I've known drug dealers(in the distant past of course!)who to all outside appearences were straight up normal law abiding citizens.
They just kept their business separate from their everyday lifes and didn't shit where they ate to quote an old phrase.
Now if you were to follow them around it would be a different story.

MrPoirot said...

Matt, think about your statement. You're saying you knew drug dealers who were law abiding citizens and you knew more than one like that. That reminds me of Leslie's statement about the Family being the nicest people you'd ever meet.

matt prokes said...

Read what i said again mrp.
I said 'to all outside appearences' they were law abiding citizens. meaning that for instance if you lived in their neighborhood you wouldn't know what they were up to.
very careful people with just the right degree of paranoia

MrPoirot said...

Rosemary had absolutely no drug related stuff in her home. The drug dealer accusations I think come from people trying to find a reason how Rosemary was worth $2.6 mil as was written up in LA papers at the time. I have to wonder if Leno didnt have his grocery chain in her name. But more than likely that claim about the $2,6 mil was most likely bogus. Rosemary's wallet had greenbax stamps in it. Rosemary and Leno had moved from their previous home to Waverly because it was too expensive.

MrPoirot said...

matt prokes said...
Read what i said again mrp.
I said 'to all outside appearences' they were law abiding citizens. meaning that for instance if you lived in their neighborhood you wouldn't know what they were up to.
very careful people with just the right degree of paranoia


Poirot replies:

But the whole country followed Rosemary to her home. There was never any evidence of any drug dealing. Maury Terry never offered any evidence. He just threw that accusation out there. If the cops tore into every scrap of paper in the Waverly house and found no evidence of drug dealing then there was no drug dealing because that is the type of stuff cops were looking for.

matt prokes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
matt prokes said...

I'm not saying she was dealing drugs...I'm just saying that if someone is its not always going to be obvious to the whole world.
Of course that only applies to people higher up the food chain that don't have to deal in nickles and dimes.

matt prokes said...

Screwed up there...
I wrote 'I'm saying she was dealing drugs'in my deleted post!

oops.

Cielodrive.Com said...

She?

louis365 said...

Matt..can't say I dig where ur coming from...not always obvious?...it's always obvious to people who know their neighbourhood. Now, if ur talkin politicians who move meg tons...

Doc Sierra said...

matt prokes said...

I'm not saying she was dealing drugs...I'm just saying that if someone is its not always going to be obvious to the whole world.
Of course that only applies to people higher up the food chain that don't have to deal in nickles and dimes.
-------------------------------
I've been around the block a few times and have known a very successful drug dealer or two. The most successful drug dealer use buffers. They never have possession of the drugs and most of the people that deal for them and most of the people that buy from them don't even know they exist.
Now, was Rosemary a drug dealer? Who knows.....

MrPoirot said...

Doc, Maury Terry says he knows. Where's the evidence? No matter how small where is it? It ain't there.

beauders said...

terry told this to a writer named kregg sanders a source of mine. sanders put out a murderabilia magazine called "crime and criminals" in the 90's.

MrPoirot said...

Beauders that is a technique of some writers and is widely used today. What Terry did was create a straw man. He did this by making up something and telling another writer(straw man) who then publishes the fabrication as fact. Then Terry sources the straw man as the inscrutale source of the fabricated claim.

starship said...

I've not read the Terry book, but plan to. I suspect he is a loon though in the mold of Mae Brussels from just hearing the theories posted online attributed to his book.

I am fairly familiar with the Son of Sam stuff having lived in the area for a time, so there's that.

And not saying I agree with it but I believe the idea is that Rosemary LaBianca dealt drugs out of her dress boutique, not at Waverly Drive.

katie8753 said...

Rosemary: "Ready to check out? Let's see, 3 Gucci designer originals @ $1,200.00 Each, and a gallon of MDA. Your total is $20,000.00. Will that be cash or charge?"

HA HA. Sorry Starship, I couldn't resist.

Brian Davis said...

Starship: And not saying I agree with it but I believe the idea is that Rosemary LaBianca dealt drugs out of her dress boutique, not at Waverly Drive.

Co-rrect.

Katie: Rosemary: "Ready to check out? Let's see, 3 Gucci designer originals @ $1,200.00 Each, and a gallon of MDA. Your total is $20,000.00. Will that be cash or charge?"

LOL !

If Rosemary wasn't selling then there is another possibility:
Leno was on the board of the bank and was due to be "fired" or removed on that Monday, according to Schreck.

Tex and/or Charlie know this (through Rostau ?)and get to the LaBianca's and force them to take them down to clean out the safe at the bank.
I don't know, of course, if this happened as someone would have to go back and see if there was missing money or perhaps they didnt succeed but it could explain why the boat was parked in the street and why Rosemary had on a dress over her nightgown.

Of course, Rosemary could've just been freaked out by the freaks in her house and quickly grabbed something to throw on over her nightgown.

MrPoirot said...

Yes and keep that receipt in case the drugs are bad. All our illicit drugs are guaranteed. Have a nice day and I hope you enjoy the gucci'.

That reminds me of the time Floyd let the mafia move a booky into the back of his barber shop.

CarolMR said...

MrPoirot, I just saw that FLoyd episode yesterday.

katie8753 said...

Hi Brian!

How do you connect Rostau to Leno LaBianca?

Mr. P., what about the time Floyd told a woman in the "Lonely Hearts Club" that he was rich. LOL.

Brian Davis said...

Hi Katie ! Rostau connects to LaBianca because the bank was backed with mob money and Rostau tho maybe not a "made man" was connected. Tex of course knew Rostau.

I am not saying I subscribe to this but I do consider it and would like to explore that more when I can.

katie8753 said...

Brian I really don't think that Rosemary was dealing drugs. I think that if that was the case, Ruth Sivick would definitely have known something was up. She wasn't just an employee at the dress shop, she was Rosemary's partner.

But, on the other hand, Leno was definitely into all kinds of nefarious things. And the meeting on Monday makes you wonder. I think LaBianca was all about Leno.

There's no doubt in my mind that Charlie knew exactly where he was going that night. He was stalling until he knew the LaBiancas were home. But who tipped him off? And who hired him? What was the payoff for Charlie?

MrPoirot said...

I have to decent on all counts about everything Schreck says about the Labiancas. Katie's statement about Rosemary's business partner is blatant proof that absolutely no drugs were ever delt out of their boutique. There were also several other employees the two women owners had used at the store. None of them knew anything of illicit activity.

According to Schreck; Leno was in horrendous trouble from multiple underworld and buisness fronts yet there was absolutely no defensive measures at all taken by Leno which would indicate Leno had even an inkling of suspicion that he was in even the slightest trouble. Leno had nothing to defend himself in his home but 14 unloaded black powder cowboy pistols manufactured in the 1800s. If the mafia was mad at Leno then he surely would have detected at least some tiny hint of danger lurking nearby. If Leno was ever aware of this Monday morning ambush by a mafia controlled bank he never showed any signs. In fact just the opposite was true. Leno had just gotten home from vacation at Lake Isabella. Leno was murdered reading a newspaper pony sheet for Gods sake. That doesn't sound like a man with worries to me. it sounds more like Leno was murdered when Leno least expected it.

MrPoirot said...

Pardon my spelling.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, I agree with you that Rosemary had nothing to do with this. I absolutely don't think she was selling drugs.

So many people pop out of the woodwork and see that she was a "sex fiend" and automatically try to make it look like she was doing something wrong.

But I see no evidence of this at all, except thru someone's opinion.

But Leno was a gambler, and as such, was an addict. He was addicted to gambling. That we know.

If Leno wasn't concerned about the meeting on Monday it doesn't mean that he had nothing to worry about. What it means is that as a gambler, he thought he could explain it all away "again" like he's done a 100 times before. And tomorrow he was gonna hit the big time.

Tomorrow I'm gonna win so much money that I can pay everyone off and be happy.

But tomorrow never comes for gamblers.

Gamblers buy time. I'm sure that Leno thought he could "buy some more time" like he'd done many times before. Why worry? Why not just lie down on the couch and read about the ponies? And lose more money....

MrPoirot said...

I have to add this.

If Schreck is right about Rosemary dealing and Leno gambling and dancing with Mafia. Then why would Leno and Rosemary have behaved in a quiet calm manner for nearly 8 minutes after Charlie left with possibly Tex guarding them. It was not until Krenwinkle started noisly sorting through the knife drawer that either of them knew they were in drastic danger. If Leno were in with the Mafia and Rosemary delt drugs they would have known instantaneously that they were being assassinated. BTW Rosemary would have owned a modern firearm if she delt because dealing is a dangerous line of work.

Schreck said he was sworn to secrecy and can not reveal the name of the guy who was his main source of information until this secret source dies. So anotherwords Schreck is going to use a dead guy to prove all these accusations. That Schreck dude is a piece of work.

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

Well it's 7 degrees in the northeast, and 75 degrees here today. I'm not gloating. Because if it's going to be in the 80's here this week, it means it's gonna be a scorcher this summer.

Hang onto your hats! And your sunshade.

G'night Jugdish! Stay warm:)

louis365 said...

lol Mr. P., he sure is...

beauders said...

katie we averaged 28 degrees in portland, oregon for the last week. i like the cold but this was a little much for me, i had to put on a sweater when i went out.
poirot, that is fine but sanders was meeting with terry about buying his research for me. this bit about sandra being the source has not been written about by anyone but me. the deal for his research did not happen but i did learn some interesting things.

beauders said...

p.s. it has been written by bugliosi and sanders that leno labianca was going to be fired the monday after his death. those are closest primary sources we're ever going to get.
and matt remember that sandra went to university in san francisco. i'm not saying that sandra was the source just that's what terry said, terry could have lied or sanders could of but he was my source (sanders) and he didn't lie to me as far as i know. sanders was my source for the information that james whitehouse was courting attempted murderer veronica compton before atkins and many other stories that have shown to be true.

beauders said...

i gave the story of james whitehouse and veromica compton to brett and he spoke to compton herself and compton and she confirmed it. i guess when you live in iceland you don't have to worry about the u.s. psycho's getting to you but i wouldn't contact that woman for anything, she's still nuts.

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
matt prokes said...

Its about 7 degrees where I am and its no fun!
When I was a kid back in the late 1800s I loved sledding,playing hockey,snowball fights etc but the older I get the less use I have for the cold Weather.
Beauders I never thought Your info was wrong I just wondered where it came from.
As I said I have another post in draft form that Deals with the Whole Manson-Shea-Folger dinner but I can't prove anything about it one way or another,so I just reprinted what Terry wrote in the updated edition of the Book and let the folks here read it and debate it,maybe someone here can move the ball a little further down the field...ya never know.

matt prokes said...

It would be great to talk to Terry Himself about all this but Hes very hard to find I've been told that hes that way on purpose.
The only place I can't look is on Facebook since thats a club I don't(and won't)belong to.
Theres a couple of other people I've tried to get in touch with who supposedly know a lot about this story.
One for example is a Guy I used to talk to online roundabout 99-01 named Micheal who worked for Bill Mentzer in the 70s and had some very interesting stories about stuff that went on back then but he has vanished into the haze of the internet maybe on purpose since he was hesitant to tell all for fear of reprecussions(sp?).
He could have been full of it of course but my gut tells Me he wasn't.
Adam Gorightly wrote a paragraph or two about Micheal in His Book and knew Him around the same time I did but Adam no longer knows how to get in touch with Him either so thats where that ended.

MrPoirot said...

The trouble with introducing a mafia hit onto the Labianca murders is that you are now giving entirely seperate beginnings and endings into the two nights of murders. The first night is an incredibly well researched event. Charlie lost his mind after believing that he killed Crowe and then Beausoleil killed Hinman. The actual minute that it went fully out of control was when two of Charlie's core girls were busted for using stolen credit cards. Charlie then began punching out an oak tree behind Spahns. Charlie's world is under full attack by The Man. Charlie countered by attacking the "pigs" at Cielo.

When you add a mafia hit to the second night you then destroy your own theory in the process because now you have a mafia controlled bank having had Charlie kill the very man your mafia bank plans to fire on Monday. Why are you going to have the same mafia both murder AND fire Leno?

With the mafia plot you need to consolidate your last steps. Either you have Leno murdered by mafia hit or you have Leno fired by mafia. You can't have both endings. It's not like a Hitchcock movie where you can test one movie ending in Chicago and another ending in New York. That is unless you plan on claiming that Charlie was chairman of the board of directors at the mafia bank. I would have no problem believing Charlie would both murder and fire the same guy in a 36 hr period.

starship said...

Ok, some of you are confusing a few things:

Yes, Leno was on the board of a mob-controlled bank at one time, but I am fairly certain that this had ended sometime in 1968.

There was a meeting scheduled on SATURDAY to discuss what he was going to do about the money he owed Gateway which, remember, was a family owned business. This meeting may well have ended up with him exiting the grocery business and it would have been lawyers, his mother and his two brothers-in-law in attendence. Because Leno went to the lake instead, this meeting never happened. Maybe the fact that Leno blew this off was the last straw for somebody? One of his brothers-in law was a member of the Sons of Italy which, not to be too stereotypical, is often associated with the mafia, and that same brother-in-law claimed to the detectives that he would have heard about it if it were a mob hit.

One of the theories I consider from time to time is that CM was contracted by persons unknown to put the hit on Leno, and that CM concocted Tate to see if he could get his minions to do the deed for him under the spell of Helter Skelter, and that he proceeded from there. Perhaps the hit may have been called off if satisfaction had been gained at the missed meeting earlier in the day, but since it never happened, no satisfaction....

starship said...

I can't get no....

starship said...

Oh, and Maury Terry is a graduate of Iona College. I go there from time to time for alumni events, so i will keep my eyes peeled and let you know if I have any luck.

katie8753 said...

Hey Starship, do you know anything about Fred Gardner, the wacky neighbor who lived at 3267 Waverly Drive?

According to his ex-wife, he visited the Labiancas several times and always returned with money or whiskey.

Brian Davis said...

Starship, thank you for the clarification.

Ok, leaving out any meeting or firing, if Tex and/or Charlie got word that there was money in a safe down at the bank or grocery store or dress shop then they drive around for a while until Manson knew they would be home.

And if so, could that word have come from Susan Laberge ?

I can not remember if I read or heard it in an interview somewhere or if I'm just thinking it up in my own fried-brain but is it stated somewhere that Manson stopped and made a phone call while they were driving around, imo, stalling for time on the LaBianca night ?

Mr P wrote: "When you add a mafia hit to the second night you then destroy your own theory in the process because now you have a mafia controlled bank having had Charlie kill the very man your mafia bank plans to fire on Monday. Why are you going to have the same mafia both murder AND fire Leno?

If it went down like that or anything close to that, imo, Tex and/or Charles would not be hired by the mob but instead trying to rob the mob and frame the black man.

But with Charlie's connections to the mob himself, I could see a situation where he "owed them one" himself.



Brian Davis said...

And the car and boat was parked out on the street and Mrs. LaBianca had a dress on over her night clothes.

It appears other things possibly went on that the murderers arent saying because they quite possibly don't really know except for Tex.

I tend to think someone took Mrs. LaBianca for a ride somewhere.

sunset77 said...

If anyone hasn't seen it and is interested, there is a parole hearing video where Leslie Van Houten describes her role in the murders, including at the LaBianca's around the 4 minute mark. That vid can be seen HERE.

katie8753 said...

Hi Brian!

>>>Brian said: if Tex and/or Charlie got word that there was money in a safe down at the bank or grocery store or dress shop then they drive around for a while until Manson knew they would be home.

And if so, could that word have come from Susan Laberge ?>>>

Brian I've always thought that Laberge had something to do with this. The only 2 people on earth who knew when the LaBiancas got home that morning was Susan and the newspaper guy.

But if there was money in the safe at the grocery store or botique, why didn't they just break in and steal it? Creepy Crawl.


>>>imo, Tex and/or Charles would not be hired by the mob but instead trying to rob the mob and frame the black man.

But with Charlie's connections to the mob himself, I could see a situation where he "owed them one" himself.>>>

Interesting observation....

>>>And the car and boat was parked out on the street and Mrs. LaBianca had a dress on over her night clothes.>>>

I think too much attention has been focused on this boat being on the street. Leno kept that boat at his mother's house. It's quite possible that since it was after midnight, he decided not to disturb his mother and he would just move the boat the next day. As far as it not being in the driveway, the driveway to their house had an extreme incline, and perhaps he was afraid that the emergency brake wouldn't hold and the car & boat would just slide back into the street. I think it's as simple as that. Just my opinion. If he had never parked it in the driveway, he wouldn't know.

And Rosemary putting a dress on over her gown isn't unusual. If I were asleep and some strange goon came in my room, I would put something over my gown in modesty.

If anyone had taken Rosemary out of the house that night, wouldn't she take the nightgown off and change into a dress? Why put a dress over a nightgown? That looks stupid.

And why didn't Pat or Leslie mention Tex taking Rosemary somewhere?

Sorry Brian, I just don't think that happened. You're gonna have to convince me. :)

MrPoirot said...

Brian Davis said...
And the car and boat was parked out on the street and Mrs. LaBianca had a dress on over her night clothes.

It appears other things possibly went on that the murderers arent saying because they quite possibly don't really know except for Tex.

I tend to think someone took Mrs. LaBianca for a ride somewhere.

Poirot replies:

Hey Brian, wassup. I had pointed out some things earlier that struck me as indicaters of mundaneness by the Labiancas. There all over the place everywhere you look. For instance their home is a very classy home but it is not lavishly furnased. It wreaks of mr and mrs ordinaire.
Leno not only bought the kids a nice ski boat but he even towed it around for them. This is very typical family behavior from the WW2 generation. They weren't splurgers.
It's interesting to scan through this discussion on the Labs and notice that they are seen as either Ward and June Cleaver or Bonnie and Clyde Barrow. There's no midground.

katie8753 said...

Sunset, I listened to Leslie's description of what happened.

As usual, horseteeth is trying to blame Tex.

She says she was "sleeping most of the time" that they were driving and "doesn't remember much". Her psychiatrist explained that she was "escaping". She says her eyes begged Charlie to pick her, and then she goes to sleep???? In my experience, when you're excited about a prospect, you stay awake.

She says that Manson said for everyone to change clothes. That's why she raided Rosemary's closet. But in another parole hearing, she said that she gave Tex her jeans, so she had to get clothes from Rosemary's closet. Tex wouldn't fit in her jeans. Another lie.

Then she says they got cheese and chocolate milk.

I love the way horseteeth tries to make it look like she's the victim, when poor Rosemary was stabbed in the spinal column and crawled on the floor for a while until she finally succumbed.

BTW, who pulled her dress up above her butt? Like the final degradation. It wasn't degrading enough to stab her 42 times? No one has admitted to that, although it happened because we have the pictures.

katie8753 said...

They ate and drank cheese and chocolate milk.

Doesn't sound like their tummies were upset. Sounds more like hunger after a kill. Much like an animal.

Hmmmm......

Horseteeth later said:

"I had a knife and Patricia had a knife. We just started stabbing and cutting up the lady."

"I stabbed her. I don't know if it was before or after death but I stabbed her."

When asked if she felt sorry, she answered: "That's only a five-letter word. It can't bring back anyone."

"What can I feel? It's happened. She's gone. You can't undo something that's done."

When asked if she felt ashamed, she replied "What is ashamed?"

When asked if she felt like crying, she replied "For her death? If I cry, it's for death itself. She's not the only person who died."


Quotes from charliemanson.com. Thanks!

katie8753 said...

Okay, I've been a "blog hog" long enough. LOL. Carry on. :)

katie8753 said...

I do play piano, even Chopin. I can play Chopin on the Piano.

Check this out: I can play this piece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaOcqp3uQg

Chopin was an interesting character, as well as Beethoven and Mozart.

If you've studied all of them you will see they all had bad things in their lives and made it into good things.

I hope you listen to the whole piece.

It's wonderful.

I've been playing the piano for 48 years.

Night.

matt prokes said...

wish i could play me some piano.

heres my song for tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93D1wzZUrm4

katie8753 said...

That's not piano Matt. Sigh....

Night.

Brian Davis said...

Hi Mr. Poirot ! Good to see you ! Great observations !

Hello Katie ! Good to see you as well !

You and Mr. P bring some great counter points. Good stuff !

matt prokes said...

I know that.
its just been going through my head tonight.

matt prokes said...

Heres a cool Piano...nice boots too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cySnG42s0lE

katie8753 said...

Okay Roger Daltrey and a fake Elton John against Chopin.

Get outta here.

HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Brian have a great night! Thanks for coming by. :)

MrPoirot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MrPoirot said...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2267993/Pprtland-Arctic-sea-smoke-Chicago-warehouse-frozen-burning-days-later.html

Beauders is this your Portland?

beauders said...

yep that's us, it has been very cold here.

Al X said...

The Eyewitness accounts that described a shooter who looked nothing like Berkowitz, also had a third witness, who upon hearing gunfire went outside and saw the shooter, with gun in hand, run by. She also gave a description of the gunman that did not resemble berkowitz. In fact, her description was pretty much the same as the one the two victims gave. it may be true that some witnesses go into shock, but three different people giving the same exact description? I don't buy that.

scott said...

Hey, thanks for the paperback PDF. You are awesome! Scott(-: