Wednesday, January 9, 2013

Letters From Lynn - 2004

These letters give us a glimpse into "family life".
 
The New York Times, By JESSE GREEN
Published: May 23, 2004

INTERPRETATIONS vary as to whether Lynette (Squeaky) Fromme intended to kill President Gerald Ford when she aimed her gun at him on Sept. 5, 1975, in Sacramento; the chamber of the .45 Colt was empty.

But her larger motivation was clear.
Ms. Fromme has said -- (and in his libretto for ''Assassins,'' the musical he wrote with Stephen Sondheim, John Weidman has reiterated) -- that she committed the crime so that Charles Manson, whose ''family'' she had joined in 1967, would appear as a witness at her trial, and thus have a worldwide platform from which to preach his apocalyptic vision.

Earlier this year, Mary Catherine Garrison, the actress who plays Ms. Fromme in the revival of ''Assassins'' at Studio 54, wrote to Fromme at Carswell, seeking information that might help in portraying her. Ms. Fromme's responses, excerpted here with her permission, explain what it was like to be at the center of the Manson fold.  JESSE GREEN

March 22, 2004

Mary Catherine --

I could not tell you first hand about the Hollywood murders. I can tell you that much about any history is dependent upon the times, the movements and thoughts of the world at the time. I can tell you just a little of the world that my generation inherited -- the many benefits even beyond our parents' childhood dreams, and the deficits that kept us from fully enjoying those dreams.

The Civil Rights movement marched through the end of my childhood and enlisted me, albeit only mentally. I had traveled through the South on long bus trips with the Lariats and seen the ''Whites Only'' restrooms and drinking fountains, so when the rioting and the civil protests reached my attention as a teenager, the full weight of responsibility for slavery seemed to come with it, and a general disgust for the so-called adults and authorities who were supposed to have been taking care of things, knowing best, being the wisest.

My own home's authority figure might have put some balance into my thinking but he couldn't face his children, let alone talk to us; he couldn't face himself. (I have to say, he did the best he could and I love him for it but he never did open up. Love had been shut down in that body before I arrived.)

Right about this time the Vietnam War began threatening to take the boys of the graduating classes. At first, I didn't think about it; some guys were going to war and some were playing football, some became engineers and some, soldiers. I had seen many WWII movies about the heroes who fought and died. It was religiously recounted like the story of Christ. It was about sacrifice for the good of all. The spilling of blood, the maiming and mangling of young bodies, the accidental deaths of women and children and the elderly all unavoidable. That's the theme. . . . That's still the theme.

How many people reached rock bottom serious about protesting the war and immolated themselves? Talk about giving . . .

By then, school meant less and less to me. The experience of life seemed the only hope -- to know it before one of the stupid or stubborn adults blew it up. Our government leaders -- from my view -- treated young people's questioning with defensive contempt, no way to open up a dialogue. . . .

But I was and am not a political creature. . . . I wrote poetry and dreamed of allowing words to take me mentally and physically into experience, what I wanted most. But not, I quickly decided, the alcoholic experience and early death of my hero, Dylan Thomas. Something clear and harmonious and perfect. I had always believed in intuition and that magic and miracles were real life. It seemed that almost all young people were out on the road, maybe more so in California, where the roads had plenty of space to stretch, and residents were not as rooted. . . . I had been exploring territory since I was young, getting on a random bus that took me all the way across the city, hitchhiking to the beaches.

''The Family'' was not a name that we used, you know. We didn't call ourselves anything but ''us,'' ''the girls,'' ''the guys'' or by any number of names that sprung from significant situations. We were just likenesses that found ourselves together through various circumstances during our travels. We almost knew one another on sight. . . . By forgiving ourselves of various perceived personal imperfections and focusing instead on the land around us, we were drawn into California's beautiful natural settings, and there beside river & ocean, surrounded by conifer, cactus or oak, our brains were literally wooed & awakened by new soft & pungent scents -- and a whole array of subtle sights, sounds and feelings previously hidden from us by our own narrowness of focus. What had often seemed like a flat existence became multidimensional.

Within these settings we fell in love with the bright eyes and minds of each other. To taint that with talk about sex orgies and group gropings shuts my mind down.

Lynette Fromme


March 24, 2004

Mary Catherine --

You asked how often I smoked pot. Marijuana was fairly precious when I first tried it and for me it remained that way. Two joints in one day would be an excess to me but my ''tolerance'' didn't rise. . . .

Our use, as a group, was almost always at night after dinner, when our day's work was done, the meal had been eaten, and the last of the dishes were being dried in a hurry so that whoever was in the kitchen could join the rest of the circle on the carpet or hardwood or floor-pillows in the room with the fireplace, if there was one. Then the joints (somewhere between two and six depending upon the number of people) were taken from the pocket of usually a woman who liked to roll them, the room settled down, bodies ever so slightly leaned in, and the relished and respected substance was anticipated. The matches flared and the scent reached us before the joints. There was a relaxed quiet about these moments, a catching up to ourselves (after activity), deep breathing and transcendence. We were allowing ourselves to re-tune, all odd sounds and notes refining to come together. Pretty soon the guitars came out, a flute or drum maybe, and we experimented with our vocal cords.

You asked what we wore but let me say first that our ''family'' if we must, in the old-time country way, was ''poor.'' Rich at times in resources but never in money. We didn't deal drugs but traded for them
.
In those days goods were exchanged -- maybe they still are. People unsatisfied w/lives of substance-without-spirit gave away their things -- even houses and cars -- to go out on the roads or into communes. If I needed a couch or whatever, there was sure to be someone looking to unload one.

Clothes were acquired in the same way. And the surplus and secondhand stores were loaded with period clothing -- the contents of trunks and attics of elderly people who had neatly packed away all that genuine satin and velvet, those gowns and antique lace blouses and smart wool suits, and then died, with no one to give them to.

What did I wear? I dressed more for comfort but I do love costume. We wore not the sailor-wide bell bottoms; but more narrow ones, and like what's coming in, they were hip huggers. We didn't wear short tops but we wore short skirts -- I can't believe how short -- but all that was the fashion, and rarely looked at askance. We wore, specifically, rich or soft materials, nothing stiff or terribly restrictive. Gentle things (the women wore) soft to the touch. And no, we generally did not just exchange all of our clothes. Each of us probably had 3 or 4 sets of clothes at any given time that we really liked more than others. We didn't keep them apart. . . .

I'll tell you this, there were certainly no dictates about it. I've heard people say that everything in our lives was planned and orchestrated by Manson and it's just not true.

But as for what people wore -- all time-frames were in style, all sets and scenes. All the world a -- you know.

Lynette

117 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I've always loved Lynn.
If she wrote a book, I'd buy it for sure!

Thanks Kimchi!

Lauren Webster said...

Great find!

Really wish Lynette would have published that book.

Doc Sierra said...

She really has a talent for writing. I'd like to read more.

sunset77 said...

Thanx for the post, without going into a 4 page comment, I'll only say I'm a bit "skeptical" of some of the things she says. I'm sure Lynette Fromme knows a million times more about this subject than I ever will. I think there may be some difference between what she says she did, and what she actually did during this time however.

In the last thread Cease 2 asked in anyone ever seen the film "Titicut Follies", I have. The entire film is posted on YouTube HERE.

Finally, I think Matt said in the last thread he almost deleted someone else's draft. I didn't realize that was possible, thanx for the warning.

Leigh said...

Good post. Add me to the list who'd buy Lynn's book. Hers is probably the only Family memoir I'd bother to own with maybe one or two exceptions. I'll read Bobby's with gritted teeth if he ever puts it out there, but I won't buy it. Lynn has always seemed intelligent without any of the self-aggrandizing impulses that characterize Bobby's attempts at thoughtful reflection and somehow vulnerable despite the enduring nature of her loyalty. I pity her more than I fear or loathe her. I don't trust her as far as I can throw her but there's something there that I want to know more about. It's a shame she never published anything.

leary7 said...

I always seem to be the grump in these discussions but as much as I enjoyed reading these letters it just doesn't fly with me to be "schooled" on the civil rights movement and Vietnam by Squeaky Fromme. Lynn assuming the mantle of generational spokesman is the same for me as Charlie posing as an environmental spokesman. Or Stevie Nicks speaking out on the federal deficit. Or Charlie Sheen on abstinence.
It's kind of an odd thing. I think Lynn's notoriety compels her to feel like she has to say things of broad significance. Sometimes I wish she would just speak from the perspective of a '69 runaway barefoot hippie chick - which is how I will always think of her.

Leigh said...

Leary - I think you're pretty much dead on.

starship said...

I wish she'd write a book too. And it would be interesting to hear her thoughts on living in the modern world after all that time in prison...cell phones, internet, e-z pass...

Reminds me of the Simon Wells book where he painted a portrait of how carefree and happy everyone was, including Charlie, in 1967-1968...but then 1969 comes and it all went to shit. No record deal, the White Album, and drug burns start to do that I guess.

katie8753 said...

Within these settings we fell in love with the bright eyes and minds of each other. To taint that with talk about sex orgies and group gropings shuts my mind down.

She must have missed out on the sex orgies and group gropings because she was too busy tending to George. LOL.

Lauren Webster said...

Interesting how she denies calling the family a family while in interviews Sandy has said "I am one wih the Manson family".

katie8753 said...

I could not tell you first hand about the Hollywood murders. I can tell you that much about any history is dependent upon the times, the movements and thoughts of the world at the time. I can tell you just a little of the world that my generation inherited -- the many benefits even beyond our parents' childhood dreams, and the deficits that kept us from fully enjoying those dreams.

It's interesting to see how many of the "family" members keep focusing on how they can blame the times, i.e., the Vietnam War and Civil Rights, for these murders. They never take responsibility. Ever.

Lynnette, Sandy, Tex, Bobby....

Like that's an excuse to kill people? They say they were at war. With whom? Piggies? Define piggies. Rich people who had jobs? And these people were responsible for Vietnam & Civil Rights?

Does killing piggies get back at the social issues at the time? I can't understand why these killers thought their killings were justified because of the war and Civil Rights. How was that going to right that?

Truth be told, Sharon Tate was very accepting of the black race. She asked Ms. Chapman to stay the night on August 8th. Not for any other reason than she wanted the woman to be comfortable. And Abigail Folger had not only worked with the "sick hippies" for free medical care, she had supported Tom Bradley, a black man, for Mayor of LA.

These women were a lot more supportive of the black race than Charles Manson ever dreamed of.

The motive for these murders was much simpler than these family members relate.

Hinman=need money. Tate=revenge. LaBianca=I don't know.

But none of these murders were committed because of the societal goings on in 1969.

candy and nuts said...

Katie hru today I see your back in full force

candy and nuts said...

Katie I do have one question last year I wanted to email you you wouldnt devuldge your email you said well send in care of LS have you attained an email addresss yet and if so may I have it?

Lauren Webster said...

Thanks Candy. Did Red ever say why she never published anything? I've read that she went to publishers with the book on the family which was a book of photos,drawings and songs and aside from the fact she had a hard time getting publishers to read it, Clem discouraged her from publishing it. This was around the days of the trials.

katie8753 said...

Candy, if there is something so important that you need to relay to me, please just post it here. And please think about using punctuation in the future. It really helps. Just a suggestion.

I've had a simply wonderful day today, and I won't have it marred with some e-fisticuffs.

So I'm going to bid you all adieu.

G'night Jugdish. :)

beauders said...

one of the women tate had lunch with the day of her murder, barbara lewis, was a black woman. she was one of tate's best friends. tate was not racist.

matt prokes said...

Hey Candy,I uploaded the family jams cd to this blog a while back.
its quite good.I think you can find it a page or two back in the postings.

candy and nuts said...

katie8753 said...
Candy, if there is something so important that you need to relay to me, please just post it here. And please think about using punctuation in the future. It really helps. Just a suggestion.
Ive been told by many KAtie you are a drunk who will sit up all night and not even worry if your children get to school for your need to post here ( we have all seen it) katie youre pathetic get treatment and stop drinking all night and sitting on blogs and worry about your children and real life what a disgraceful shameless person you are katie dont worry punctuation of candy try to sober up and get your kids to school on time for once drunken pig

adam said...

I'd consider Squeaky to be a wonderful, poetic, slighty kooky person if I'd never seen an interview of her from the mid 90's. In it she says that the murders were justified because the culprits "felt that it was the right thing to do". It was at that moment that I saw that there was something fundamentaly broken within her.
What kind of person can show so much concern for the wellbeing of trees, whales etc.. but place no value on the life of a fellow human?

katie8753 said...

Candy is that what you wanted to tell me in an e-mail? LOL.

katie8753 said...

Adam, I agree. Something is definitely off kilter.

Leigh said...

Well said, Adam. I wonder what Squeaky's psych evals from prison look like. Her parole hearings are sealed, right? Since she was in the federal prison system. (Correct me if I have that wrong.)

Doc Sierra said...

matt prokes said...

Hey Candy,I uploaded the family jams cd to this blog a while back.
its quite good.I think you can find it a page or two back in the postings.
-------------------------------------
Hi Matt, I haven't been able to find it. Can you please post it again?
Thanks

candy and nuts said...

Lynard I removed my comments about RED its sad because someone like me who has some first-hand knowledge to add and share about Red immediately has to get some shit from Katie-Id love to talk about my experiences of talking to LYnette and her letters but Im not wasting my time when the town drunk Katie is here there is other blogs who would appreciate what I and Im sure others have to say without putting up with a drunken lush

matt prokes said...

Doc-heres the link:
http://www.lsb3.com/2012/12/family-jams-family-jams-too.html

Candy do you really think calling her names is going to improve the situation?

Doc Sierra said...

Doc-heres the link:
http://www.lsb3.com/2012/12/family-jams-family-jams-too.html
-------------------------------------
Thanks Matt. You da man.

candy and nuts said...

Matt I have held off alot to her trying to belive this person as its been told has problems if she does hope she gets help but Im not gonna sit here and try to share things that other people might benefit from only to get bullshit from her and name calling would you rather I said "alcoholic"?Im done posting here sadly another person who could contribute will not be here thanks to your "alcoholic hostess".

katie8753 said...

Candy you're not going to bait me into a fight with you so you're wasting your time. I didn't call you names.

Have a nice life.

matt prokes said...

I understand your frustration believe me I do but I don't think that responding to a smart ass remark with an all out attack on a personal level is going to remedy the situation.
At the end of the day no-one here really knows anyone else...its all just words on a blog.
If someone attacks you or pisses you off online its always best just to ignore them rather than go to their level and make something bad that much worse.
I know thats easier said than done but the reason we're all here is because we have an interest in the case and if we all stuck to that rather than indulge in personal vendettas we'd all be better served in the long run.
That goes for me,you,katie...hell everyone on the internet really!
Candy you seem to have good information to share,i've got no problem with you so i hope you'll continue to contribute to discussions here but if you don't want to thats your decision.
I for one hope you'll stay.

leary7 said...

wonderful Katie. good for you.
Candy can be a delightful poster but Matt is right, no need for personal attacks. you just gotta get one of those old Viking helmets and put it on when you blog so personal shit just bounces off.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Leary. Believe it or not, I'm really tired of fighting.

If I said anything to hurt Candy's feelings it was completely unintentional. My comment about adding punctuation was just a suggestion. It just makes reading a comment easier, versus the run-on sentences.

Anyway, hopefully we can get back to the subject of this thread. :)

Doc Sierra said...

Maybe this will help people that get easily offended.
When someone attacks me I think to myself 'do I respect this person enough to respect their personal opinion about me?' The answer is almost always no. If I feel someone disrespects me I just ignore them. This works for me, maybe it can work for others.
Now, back to the Hinman, TLB, Shea case.......

Lauren Webster said...

Back to Lyn:
I think it would be interesting to see what she has to say now, especially that she's out of prison.There are rumors she denounced Manson.

Doc Sierra said...

Lauren Webster said...

Back to Lyn:
I think it would be interesting to see what she has to say now, especially that she's out of prison.There are rumors she denounced Manson.
-----------------------------------
Hi Lauren, I've heard those rumors too but I don't remember where I heard them.
It's hard for me to picture her denouncing Chucky because of all of the times I've heard what she's had to say over the years. I can however, picture her distancing herself for parole restrictions if there are any.

katie8753 said...

I think Lynne lives in NY. I hope she's happy and doing what she wants. And as Doc mentioned, she's probably staying away from any Manson associate as required in her parole stipulations. I really hope she stays away from him for her own good.

I'm reading Candice Bergen's book Knock on Wood, and I'm at the part where she lived at Cielo Drive with Terry.

She prefaces the episode with the fact that Terry was extremely liberal and she was conservative, but she tried to see his views. He was very concerned with the Indians and how they had been mistreated, visiting a lot of reservations, inviting Indian Chiefs to Cielo Drive for discussions and dinner.

Then she talks about when Terry first met Manson thru Wilson. How he was really captivated by this mystic guru and the naked girls who sang at his feet.

After Terry's stepfather died and it was discovered that Marty Melcher had basically ripped his mother off for millions of dollars, he spent countless hours trying to get at the bottom of it. I think it was at this time he became disenchanted with Manson's music and started avoiding him. I don't think it really had anything to do with Manson, but moreso had to do with his reality in helping his mother.

Anyway, she says at the end of 1968 he announced that they had to move in 5 days, from Cielo Drive to his mother's Malibu Beach House. She also mentions that he warned all his friends NOT to let Manson know where he was.

She states that evidently Manson did find out where they lived because he sent a note to them about the removal of their telescope. That he had taken it. I'm assuming this was a warning.

She says a week later, the murders occurred at Cielo Drive.

She was questioned by Bugliosi regarding Tex Watson. She was shown several pictures of him, and was also in court when Tex made his appearance, and she told Bugliosi that she didn't recognize him as having been at Cielo Drive at any time during her stay there. But she also says "all hippies look alike to me".

Terry testified that Watson had been at Cielo Drive several times while he lived there, although couldn't give specific dates.

This really is an interesting book. If I'm reading this right, she was living at Cielo Drive while her parents were still at Falcon Lair. She states having a fight with her father and then "trudging up the hill back home".

katie8753 said...

Mr. P., do I have the dates right on Falcon Lair? You know a lot more about that property than I do. :)

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...
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candy and nuts said...

I will add one thing KAtie and perhaps you dont remember because you seem to be intoxicated-last year you were posting up until 530-6am in the morning and YOU mentioned about not being able to get your kids to school on time because YOU have been drinking and posting all night-YOU are the one who makes snide comments on peoples punctuation etc YOU continually are sarcastic you drink you post you delete you leave you come back this is a blog about the MAnson case not your personal mental ward Dont worry I dont take offense Ive read everything LYnard has told about you regarding your substance abuse problems etc you seem to have an issue with EVERYONE if repeating the same thing you said regarding kids give you a wake up call good Noone else seems to have an issue here with me but YOU you have since last year when I told you you had wrong information on some things-I feel sorry for you that this is all you have in life is this blog-It seems apparent your intent is to push away anyone who MAY know somethings beyond what you know something other then what you think you know-I can put away the blog and leave it-you however will sit here as proven hour after hour typing comments every five minutes to noone getting drunker by the moment and neglecting real life-I feel sorry for a sad soul like you-you seemed to get angry the first post I began to mention I have spoke to RED , corresponded with her-I guess I took some attention away from you and this set you off-I basically stopped back to see if you had posted more comments as I figured you would IM sure you sat up all night trying to think of some comeback and getting drunk-try AA might do you some good:X

candy and nuts said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...
Hi La-de-la... Happy New Year... and thanks for your question.

Fact is... Katie's inappropriate behavior is not accepted.
Katie will tell you herself... that I've asked her a million times, to exercise patience and restraint.

It's not Katie's opinions or viewpoints that bother me.
She has a right to her viewpoint... and many times she's very accurate with her opinions.
It's her presentation and intensity that are inappropriate.
Eight posts in a row, of profane, scathing, personal attacks on another blogger, are clearly not necessary to make a point.
Therein lies the problem.

I delete her inappropriate comments when I see them.

Katie's been the same way for 12 years.
Short of banning her completely... there's not a lot of options.

I'm always open to suggestions.
If you have any ideas which will make everyone's blogging experience here more peaceful... feel free email them to me.

I'm glad you're enjoying the blog.
Best Wishes for the New Year.

January 2, 2013 9:25 PM

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fiona1933 said...

One of the greatest tragedies of this whole story is the loss of Charles Manson and what he had to give. That was a beautiful world those people created...and it's clear it wasn't orchestrated and controlled by Manson. They tried to make him their leader and he tried to resist...but he had the experience and the age to to teach them. He had amazing awareness "he would go in the bathroom to comb his hair and everyone would be in there watching him because he had so much fun ". In jail , you can't even have a comb, or choose a hairstyle! It's wonderful that Charlie could keep that awareness and just dig something so simple! Lynn said that he was always happy. And he listened to the girls, truly listened, sexually too, he was gentle in a world that promoted macho violence...it drew people, especially girls who were hurting. Why wouldn't it? " A beautiful magic elf" Gypsy called him.

But he also had a lifetime of stored rage over the way he'd been treated. if it wasn't for the degeneration of the whole hippy thing, the violence and toleration of violence, the beatings and killings in Haight-Ashury, the general context of militancy and protest and ear...and then the cops, most of all the cops, the killings would never have happened.

The amount of police harassment the Family suffered was atrocious. the hippy-beating cops loved to come up to Spahn and hassle...they hated Manson for his lifestyle...absurd arrests for nothing, constant trouble, and all of this stuff finally came on top. Watkins said Manson used to tolerate the cops and say "they do their thing, we do ours" but the endless bother finally got to him, and he started to call them pigs. His anger started to rise beyond his happy awareness. After all, all he is trying to do is live in peace, eat from the garbage, work on the ranch, have fun...and they persecute him for it!

Amazing how fast it happened. Linda K was only there one month and she saw it as all peace and love. Within 4 weeks, Hinman, Lotsapoppa, and all the rest, it just flew out of control.

Bugliosi had to make a story for the jury to hold on to: a story of a wicked man who loved to control, used brain-washing techniques and had a plan of world domination. Ridiculous. Events happened and as Susan A said, Charlie reacted to a situation that went out of control. I think the ctalyst was the arrest of Mary and Sandy. It pushed him over the edge. There may have been reasons for choosing the tate house, maybe drugs (it seems likely) or a hit to provide money for his desert escape, but I don't think he'd have made that decision without the arrest.

Look how sudden it was. Just out of the blue: "Here tex, go kill these people and take some girls along...girls do what Tex says" And the really violent, unscrupulous, nasty person was definitely Watson, the man who left his girlfriend to take the heat from Lotsapoppa. the guy who rips a man off without a second thought ( on a drug deal planned by himself...where exactly was Charlie's iron control?)

What happened to Charlie? I wish Lynn could tell us that. It's not just the victims who were lost. Charlie Manson was lost too.And everything he had to give. Which was very considerable. The forces of authority have a lot to answer for.

katie8753 said...

Candy I suggest we call a truce. No one wins, no one loses.

We've highjacked this thread long enough with this nonsense.

I deleted my previous comments and will delete the last one if you'll agree to end this.

fiona1933 said...

Katie, you are so unbelievably wrong. To deny the context of the murders is insane. Stand back and look at the whole thing. Look at the changes in the hippy movement and take a good look at the behaviour of the police. Beatings and even killings in the Haight. Speed flooding the place and speed is the killer drug. The hippies themselves often losing all restraint, all standards, undergoing serious moral and mental change. It became ok to go off to festivals and leave kids alone at the commune!
Violence was everywhere! The Family tried to escape it by going to Spahn "To get away from The Man" very telling phrase. It was their harassment, and the fear of exploding cities that drove Manson to try and escape to the desert, to avoid Helter Skelter, for which he needed money, which then brought bad associates, bikers and criminals around the those kids, those open trusting kids who now had no guards left, who now thought any 'outlaw' must be good people...so started to come under the influence of genuinely immoral people, so now staeling is right, and pretty soon, killing is right: after all, isnt the government killing thousands every day?

You cannot remove actions from their context. Charles Manson did not leap up a fully-fledged murderer. The times did affect him. His whole life of suffering affected him. The kids too: all of them had loveless lives, abusive lives.

Try and walk a mile in the 60s, Katie. You really have the most simplistic view. Morality isn't a fixed thing. Put a bunch of kids with unhappy pasts and stored rage together with a charismatic man who has a lot more stored rage, in a climate of violence they can't escape. They are taking a lot of strong hallucinogenic drugs. they are defying their parent's standards, by this and by their sex lives and their not working, etc, but they aren't setting up any concrete rules to replace them, just a vague concept of 'love'. No rules, means nothing to fall back on when someone says "go and murder" hearing "there is no wrong, there is no death" and all the rest of it...

You are aware of the Stamford Prison Experiment? In 10 days, the participants were completely changed. The 'guards' became violent and abusive. The whole group came to believe the experiment was real, including the professor who was controlling it!
And the Manson family had 2 whole years to undergo their changes.

Suddenly, the Lotsapoppa thing happens, and the HInman thing. And it all goes out of control.

anyway, it's just wrong to say "they haven't taken responsibility" They have done so over and over, although I think Tex and Susan, by becoming Christians, shirked it completely by putting all their guilt onto Jesus and walking away from it. Leslie especially has suffered extreme remorse, hence the anorexia. Pat Krenwinkel has broken down abjectly in a parole hearing and even Patti Tate had to accept the reality of her remorse, it was so powerful. She stated very honestly that she didnt want to hear it because she didnt want to be forced (by her own humanity) to forgive her sister's killer.

What they do by talking about the times and so on, is seek to educate, so people will understand how it could happen to them. It could happen to you too, Katie and by being so superior in your moral stance, you make yourself vulnerable. People who are more aware can guard against moral collapse.
The psychological side of this story hasnt been discussed enough. The dominant narrative of a 'cult leader' with 'iron control' and a bunch of evil kids has taken over and it's ridiculous.

fiona1933 said...

You only have to look at the difference betweenLinda and the others. Linda was hardened by her years of hippiedom enough to steal without compunction. But she retained enough self-awareness to turn State's and negotiate a proper deal for herself. Whereas the others didnt even fear the gas chamber. They truly believed there is no death and that they were all one love. Manson too, retained self-awareness, trying to get them to take the rap. The other girls were literally willing to die for him!

Doc Sierra said...

On my worst day I could never espouse the twisted logic and rationalizations of Chucky and his minions. They couldn't make it in society and simply took the easy way out. Stealing, conning, conniving.

The dishonest lives that they chose and the 'there is no wrong', 'everything belongs to everybody', etc, is just another example of twisted criminals rationalizing their dishonest, victimizing existence.

In my opinion they were not the loving, gentle, peaceful cherubs that some people think they were. They were a bunch of dishonest, smelly, liars, cheats, and thieves and I do not feel sorry for them. However, I do think that a few of them are truly remorseful and deserve to be paroled.




ST. Circumstance said...

Katie when you have to listen to this it is no wonder you drink...

What the fuck is really wrong with people ????

I give up trying. It is time to start dealing with people- ALL people- on their own terms. time to reflect back at others why they project at us.. lol ever heard that before??

To try and misrepresent the killings or Charlie is a bullshit waste of time. The Context of the times is also not really relevant. People have been and will be dealing drugs,pimping, stealing cars and breaking and entering for all of time. The 60's were a great time, and in fact that is what bro9ught me into this. But this is not the group the use in gauging a very beautiful period of our history. doing so is an insult to the real open minded and creative geniuses responsible for the movement, as well as those who had real honest and positive intentions and motivations. The Family were lazy drugged out losers. Period.

Squeaky ran away from home and ran off with a guy twice her age. She then spent a good two years or so banging a blind guy 4 times her age. She also went after a President with a gun...

This is not a person who is going to teach a normal person anything.

One more cuckoo to blab about how beautiful Charlie was is not something I need to clear up any mysteries about the case. Their were plenty of peaceful loving people who had productive lives and still participated in the counter culture then and now who can educate us on the beauty of the times. Squeaky was with the others living in filth at Spahn ranch for one reason and one reason only. It was the last place they could go who would have them - in part due to the fact that Squeaky was literally prostituting herself for a man twice her ages orders...

Fiona -here is another opinion directed at you but not with any malice. Just my view on the subject of the way they have taken responsibility:

I dont give a shit if they have shown remorse, taken responsibility, learned their lesson, and wrote on the chalkboard 10000 times " I will not do it ever again"...
They still need to be punished for what they did and they need to remember that the people they killed are never coming back, and the families they affected have lost FOREVER. In this country every one gets to make their own choices. It is the freedom many have sacrificed and suffered for. But when you make certain choices- you demonstrate to the rest of us that you cannot be trusted with the rest of us. There are only a few things you can do in our society to reach this point, and we all know what they are. So when you make the wrong choice in these instances. It isn't your choice anymore after that. Sorry- those are the rules. some may get a break once in awhile- but nobody is guaranteed one. Live with it and remember that at least your living...


ST. Circumstance said...

Their are half a dozen people on this blog whom I really admire and like and I hope that none of this will offend you... I admit I write from a place of anger. Anger that people keep attacking each other personally for having opinions different from their own. Insults meant to hurt other people.

Go pop in the Hendrickson DVD again and watch Squeaky in the first few scenes with the rifle on her lap...

Then think about her blowing George Spahn, and attacking a president...

Really? this is a source of credible information??

Her story might be interesting in some ways- but if we are trying to get away from impressionable young naive people- who simply repeat Charlies words and ideas over and over. Is this the one that would be different??

I think I have heard the story of life with Charlie from this perspective plenty of times and can watch the documentaries and see for myself. What I want is some inside information about why these victims were chosen- if there ever ends up being a why.

Squeaky isn't going to help me with that.

BUT - I would buy her book- because I read them all and I also watch all the videos and read all parole transcripts and hearings. I have studied the trial transcripts, and because I have great knowledge of the existing facts and dont ever post anything without double checking, and verifying-

I know that alot of you people who do nothing but insult and attack do so because at the end of the day you have are high on your own personal agenda, and not so much on interesting information about TLB.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Weigh-in folks! LOL!

katie8753 said...

Hi St! Hi Doc! I totally agree with you both! :)

Fiona thanks for sharing your thoughts. I don't agree with them, but that's okay.

I don't think they moved to Spahn's Ranch to "get away from the man". I think they ended up there because they got kicked out of every other place. They got arrested at Spahn's Ranch because they were stealing cars and other things. That doesn't make the police bad does it?

You have to admit...Charlie used those girls shamelessly to get what he wanted. He offered them up to various men for his own agendas.

I remember the 60's very well and where I grew up, the police weren't running around hassling and killing people. I don't know if they were doing that in California, but in watching the news at the time, it appeared to me that they only got rough when it came to rioting and so forth.

I also don't agree that ALL of these kids came from an unloving environment. Susan Atkins...yes. She had a wretched life. But the others really don't have any excuse for joining up with Charlie. Not that I can think of anyway.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I almost wish now, that I had saved those two new threads.

As of this morning... I thought it was lights-out for this thread... but with this recent "resurgence"... it may be a real barn-burner, after all! LOL

Have at it Folks!
Tell us how you really feel! : )

leary7 said...

Ah, the pure joy of the Saint dropping the gloves. Nothing like a hockey fight. Dead on brother. You too, Doc.
I actually enjoy reading the idiot pro-Charlie stuff just for the insight into irrationality. But every now and then you gotta wipe down the bar and file the nonsense where it belongs. Lynyrd and Katie and the Saint and Frank and several others do a really good job of that.

Doc Sierra said...

leary7 said...

Ah, the pure joy of the Saint dropping the gloves. Nothing like a hockey fight. Dead on brother. You too, Doc.
I actually enjoy reading the idiot pro-Charlie stuff just for the insight into irrationality. But every now and then you gotta wipe down the bar and file the nonsense where it belongs. Lynyrd and Katie and the Saint and Frank and several others do a really good job of that.
-------------------------------------
Most eloquent.

candy and nuts said...

Katie I saw your post you dont need to remove anything we both said some nasty things but once said deleting a comment will not remove what happened This has never been "my blog" as it is yours so I wont contribute anymore tc:X

katie8753 said...

Candy I did delete my last comment and I sincerely apologize to you if I hurt your feelings.

It isn't my blog, it's everybody's blog. You're welcome to post here anytime you want if you change your mind.

candy and nuts said...

KAtie the main reason I asked you last year about email is because the topic had been STAR and I thought your an adm here I wanted to mention somethings to you for approval before posting but really KAtie I dont enjoy cyber fighting and you didnt hurt my feelings only real life people who I care about can hurt my feelings unless you mean e-feelings in any event its not that important for me to stick my two-cents in here on any subject I will go back to just observing-tx:):X

adam said...

Yes poor Charlie the innocent flower child who wouldn't have hurt a fly if not for "the man" pushing his back up against the wall.

Manson was a thief and a lowlife thug - period. I will never buy the story of Manson the evil hippy cult leader who had the power to brainwash people. He was just a drug dealing white trash dropout who happened to be hanging around with other drug dealing, white trash dropouts.

His only morals were the ones he'd learned in the prison yard. Those with any braincells left not yet fried by acid soon realised this and moved on. It was mainly only the criminal element that hung around once things began to turn nasty.

leary7 said...

It really is an insult to intelligence to argue that TLB must be understood "in the context of the times". My Lai has to be understood in the context of the times. Vietnam and the Kennedy and MLK killings have to be understood in the context of the times.
But Richard Nixon DID NOT make Lulu stab Rosemary in the back 16 times. Nor did the civil rights tensions cause Pat to continue plunging her knife into Abby even after Abby pleaded 'I am already dead.' And Tex had nothing in common with the Woodstock mindset when he screamed out "I am the devil'.
This was Charlie Manson, the angry failed prophet - plus the drugs and an immersion into nihilism to the point where all the TLB participants said they felt nothing while enacting pure evil.
No rational person can fail to see it was Manson who got these idiots first to believe in nothingness, i.e., that life and death were the same. And then to take his zombies with the most rage within and unleash them on the hated "piggies".
Fuck context. Charlie was a born sociopath and the others born idiots.
To understand Waco, you need context. To understand Jonestown, you need context.
To understand TLB, you only need to understand Manson.

katie8753 said...

Leary and Adam, well said.

Several family members have made mention of the fact that in the beginning, the "family" was all about peace, love & music. But in reality, at the onset, they were using Pat Krenwinkel's Dad's gas credit card without his permission to finance their excursions, which in their minds isn't stealing because "everything belongs to everyone", but normal thought processing would reveal that as credit card theft.

And how Charlie talked Mary into adding another girl to their bed still blows me away. LOL.

leary7 said...

all anyone who wants to understand TLB has to do really is go to youtube and watch the video of our original subject matter - Lynn - stating twenty years after the murders "that they were the right thing to do because the people who did them believed they were doing the right thing."
The Sixties had NOTHING NADA ZILCH to do with that twisted, warped and evil philosophy. It was Charlie. All Charlie.

leary7 said...

i should have written perspective, not philosophy.

leary7 said...

there were 400,000 trippin at Woodstock a week after the murders. They were all pissed at the govt, Vietnam and the establishment too. But nobody pulled a knife, let alone plunged it repeatedly into a defenseless woman nine months pregnant.
I've often tried to picture Manson and the Family at Woodstock. They just don't fit. Like Nazis at the beach.
Blaming TLB on "the times" is plain ignorance.

Lauren Webster said...

Fiona, as a Pysch major and with your mention of the Zimbardo experiment, I agree. I do think the strong social influence on the members is sometimes underlooked. Most of the family prior to joining, were part of middle class families and a few attended college. Many had never before they met Manson, committed a crime. But when they that this charismatic man and other followers committed crimes as a way of life, they wanted to gain acceptance and were slowly going through deindviduation.

katie8753 said...

Leary that's right. The murders had nothing to do with Vietnam or Civil Rights. They had to do with Charlie being pissed off at the world because he'd had such a crappy life. Well whose fault is that? Charlie's that's who. It was his decision to run away, steal things and pimp women. Every time he got out he got caught doing something else illegal and went back in. Even while gathering his flock he was breaking the law.

Whether people want to believe it or admit it, Charles Manson was a pimp who learned how to manipulate easily-led people while in prison, which is what he did when he got out.

matt prokes said...

leary said:there were 400,000 trippin at Woodstock a week after the murders. They were all pissed at the govt, Vietnam and the establishment too. But nobody pulled a knife,
heres some love in action from december 69.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qTKsylrpsg

ST. Circumstance said...

Matt P - it wasnt intended for me- but I am a Jim in Florida and I consider you a friend, so I watched the Paul Westerberg Video...

very cool! I used to love the Replacements....

Doc Sierra said...

ST. Circumstance said...
very cool! I used to love the Replacements....
----------------------------------
Gary's Got A Boner?

ST. Circumstance said...

Hut yeah come on lol

matt prokes said...

ST check out my Youtube page for any replacements fixes you might need!
http://www.youtube.com/user/bobstinsonsghost?feature=mhee

over 200 mats/westerberg vids and counting...a couple of my own songs as well if you search the front page.
end of commercial

ST. Circumstance said...

I sure will... :)

katie8753 said...

Matt I checked out your YouTube page. You are RIGHTEOUS my friend.

I see you're smoking what looks like Marlboro Reds. But you're not so much a "smoker", as a "holder". Which is good.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em babydoll.

Great stuff!! :)

candy and nuts said...

matt whats the url page you have

candy and nuts said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
candy and nuts said...

its kinda sad because katie and I may have alot to talk about RE this case its ok best of life to her

ST. Circumstance said...

Candy

lets all just listen to Replacements tunes tonight and luv each other...

ST. Circumstance said...

I try and comprehend you but I got a dyslexic heart
I ain't dying to offend you, I got a dyslexic heart

Thanks for the book, now my table is ready
Is this a library or bar?
Between the covers I thought you were ready
A half-angel, half-tart

Do I read you correctly, lead me directly
Help me with this part
Do I hate you? Do I date you?
Do I got a dyslexic Heart?

ST. Circumstance said...

lol ahhhh the good old days ;)

Thanks Matt P lol

great stuff

P.S. - greatest tune to take a walk too and jam when no one is looking that most people have never heard of-

"Isn't it" - Slim Dunlap

try to not start dancing a bit or bobbing your head back and forth while that one plays...

lol really good stuff!!!

ST. Circumstance said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE3XQClyAPo

go listen to this and have a drink and I promise you will smile and rock a bit like it or not...

lol

Kimchi said...

I know this will get buried, but I'm still putting it out...

YOU SAY HELLO, I SAY GOODBYE....

I don't consider myself a blogger, but I enjoy researching...that is my contribution to this blog... I normally keep quiet and do not react...but....

I have to say, I am totally disgusted with the remarks on this thread...

Name calling, personal remarks, and worst of all "gangster attitudes"....

Yes, 99% of you "reflect" the gangster attitude of picking apart someone's opinion...you all ganged up on Fiona, and she actually has valid points, IF, you would get out of your Helter Skelter mindset and seek the truth of what actually happened.

Lynyrd, I'm done, I'm through...I cannot contribute anymore to this type of reaction...I refuse to...

It's been fun (at times)and I admire you for your patience...you're a fun witty character and have built quite a following...Kudos...

Lynyrd, I will send you a personal email to explain...

Kimchi

ST. Circumstance said...

Kimchi- go listen to the Replacements and chill...

your one person nobody could have a problem with and I think you da bomb...

Fiona has great points and nobody is giving her personal shit - but we get to
disagree with her right??

Lauren Webster agreed with her thoughts and nobody gave her any shit... It isn't that big a deal

I only speak for myself but I think a few people got involved because Katie was tasking her usual shots and maybe it would help to get involved??

werent the words directed towards her pretty much what you are fuming over now?

learn one lesson I had to learn the hard way- quitting isn't the answer. Then the other people win...

I have no issue with Fiona and I gave more response to her posts than anyone. I think after reading her on the other blogs that We probably agree very much on most stuff...

but F Charlie lol for christ sakes... lol :)

Say it- it feels good...

I am sorry if I caused a problem for you Kimchi...

I truly like you very much

ST. Circumstance said...

By the way it was a great post- I am a rabbit penis for not saying that..

I think Squeaky is a very interesting study...

just not for the reasons some were suggesting. My debate was not intended to be disrespectful to the post...

katie8753 said...

Kimchi I hope you reconsider. Your contributions are very appreciated.

Fiona made a comment with her views and others reacted with their views. I actually thanked her for her thoughts, but I don't agree with them, and it's my right.

This is not a dictatorship blog but a democratic blog. We all have the right to our opinions.

What people don't seem to conceive is that there are "pro Manson blogs" and "not so pro Manson blogs (I'll not use the term "anti Manson blogs"). If you want to say pro Manson things then just go to a "pro Manson blog". Then your suggestions/ideas will be accepted with hugs instead of derision. Conversely if you want to deride Manson, then go to a "not so pro Manson blog" and spew. You will bet met with cheers and oles.

It doesn't get any simpler than that.

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
matt prokes said...

I thought this was a real good post,lynns kind of hard to comment on...she is what she is.a seemingly nice person who probably could have gone place if she hadn't got turned around in life at her most vulnerable age.
But at some point you smarten up and stop doing the things that keep you stuck in neutral and maybe shes done that now but its way too late. the best she can hope for is to live out her remaining years quietly...which is something i guess.
same could be said for sandy i suppose but always struck me as much more troubled(and scary) than lynn.

katie8753 said...

As Frank and the immortal Scarlett O'Hara both said:

Tomorrow is another day

G'Night Jugdish.

matt prokes said...

I think any book by lynn would be long on platitudes short on facts.
Jess Bravin did an interesting book about lynns life that i'm sure most folks here have read.
The pictures in that book really stood out to me.
the photos of her as a child with her dance group the lariets(sp?) i think they were called were pretty interesting
The other crazy thing that i did'nt know before i read the book was that she was good friends with phil hartman of snl fame when they were teenagers.
I think they might have even dated each other.
Does anyone know if her name is still in the cement outside her childhood home?that would be a cool picture if anyones close to that area.

matt prokes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
matt prokes said...

candy and nuts said...
matt whats the url page you have


http://www.youtube.com/user/bobstinsonsghost?feature=mhee


matt prokes said...

katie8753 said...
Matt I checked out your YouTube page. You are RIGHTEOUS my friend.
I see you're smoking what looks like Marlboro Reds. But you're not so much a "smoker", as a "holder". Which is good

Yikes you saw that video?
looks like i was auditioning for a role in the manson family!
My hair is shorter now.

matt prokes said...

katie8753 said...
Kimchi I hope you reconsider. Your contributions are very appreciated

i second that emotion.
wholeheartedly...

Cease2 said...

I too hope that Kimchi reconsiders. And that posters like Fiona, with thoughtful, insightful and yes provocative input continue to post. Even when faced with often simplistic damning critiques of Lynette and her cohorts.

Otherwise, what we have here is a guestbook for anti-"Family" sentiments and testimonials. Which kind of end up being the the opinions and values of the posters, often discounting the words and credo of actual participants out of hand.

And after all, we are not the story. Apart from the fact that some of these sentiments represent the very war-machine/wage-slave/planet-plundering societal values that Red and Blue rail against.

And it becomes self-fulfilling that if a variety of voices feel reticent about posting, a boring clique mindset will prevail, and more of us that did post will walk away. Which is kinda tempting.

adam said...

I've just re-skimmed over this thread and could not find one derogatory comment or remark aimed at Fiona.

Kimchi WTF?

ST. Circumstance said...

I agree with Cease 2 100%

Kimchi- I have gotten a little rattled lately, and maybe over did it..

I really like you and your stuff. although I never would insult you- I did come into your post with a bad attitude. I was not thinking about you and your feelings at all...

So sorry :( I meant what I said about Squeakster- but should have more thoughtful and respectful of you and your work/effort with my comment...

Wont happen again

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

It seems, I missed all the drama.
That’s fine with me.

Charles Manson is the current topic?
I’d like to offer my personal opinion of the man, if that’s permitted.

Charles Manson.

Charles Manson was a life-long criminal before the TLB murders even happened.
He was pimping, forging checks, stealing cars, having sex with minors, using stolen credit cards… and on, and on.
Even if he wasn’t convicted of the TLB murders, he’s still a piece of crap.
He would have been in-and-out of prison his entire life anyway.
Does anyone really believe, that Manson was gonna get a 9-5 job one day, and play life by the numbers?
C’mon… let’s get real.

Manson states ad-nauseam that society has failed him.
Manson has failed society.
Did he ever vote?
Did he ever pay taxes?
Did he ever serve in the military?
Heck... He didn’t even raise his own offspring.
Raising your own children is one of the most basic contributions, a man can make to his society.
What an irony:
Manson complains constantly that "he didn't have a father"... YET... he turned around, and pulled the same shit.

Manson has stated point-blank that he would rather rot in prison, than live in our sick society.
I find it very difficult to muster a whole lot of sympathy for a guy like that.

Bruce Davis has earned two master’s degrees, while in prison.
Charles Manson has wasted 40 years writing letters to his friends, making insects out of his socks, and begging the guards for his guitar.
If you must use one of these folks as a role model… choose Bruce Davis.
Davis has kept his nose clean in prison for over 40 years… has attended approximately 30 parole hearings… has begged forgiveness… educated himself… and seems to be, by all accounts, of sound mind.
That’s a LOT more than I can say, for Charles Manson.

Are we really this desperate for heroes in our world?
I’m happy to say, that I’ve been very fortunate in that regard.
I’ve had several very positive male role models throughout my life.
If Charles Manson is the best male role model that someone can muster-up, that’s a pretty sad commentary.

Charles Manson was a criminal before TLB… and he would have continued to be one.
Anyone who doesn’t believe that, is seriously kidding themselves.

I’ll take it a step further.
Even if we completely dismiss Manson’s criminal activity completely… Manson is still a poor role model.
The man is mentally ill.
Anyone who “follows” Manson, is following a man without his faculties.
They should know that upfront.

Manson is a very interesting psychological study.
He can be funny as a bastard.
He’s entertaining to listen to… much like Mike Tyson.
He wrote and performed a handful of pretty good songs in the late 60’s.
That’s all I’ve got.
If anyone sees anything more in Manson… they need more hobbies.

I’ve insulted none of the bloggers here.
That’s my personal opinion, and I have a right to it.
If anyone cares to disagree… go for it.
I have no problem defending my points.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Kimchi,

You have spoken some very challenging words.

If you think you can do a better job than me… be my guest.
I’ll add you as a full-fledged administrator.
You can monitor the comments section 24 hours a day.
You can reprimand bloggers when you deem necessary, delete comments, and ban people at your discretion.
We’ll give it a go, for 6 months.
If after 6 months, your system works better than mine… you can have the job permanently.

Be aware however, that censorship has it’s own price.
If you start deleting comments and blocking people… you’ll have a new set of problems.
You’ll have five comments on every thread… and half the people in cyberspace will hate your guts.

I read through all the comments.
Saint Circumstance and Leary got a bit “aggressive” with their responses… but, nothing outrageous.
Saint and Leary are great year-round contributors on ALL the blogs.
I’m not going to start deleting their comments, because they get a bit passionate about a subject.

What would YOU have done in this situation????
Would you delete Saint, Leary, Doc, Adam, and Katie, because they don’t agree with Fiona???
Is it MY fault, that no one agrees with Fiona?

The “Pro-Manson” people are welcome to post here.
Beyond that… I can’t FORCE my bloggers to support Manson.
I’m also not going to start supporting Manson myself, just to make someone “feel comfortable”.
If they want to blog with me, I’m going to give my honest opinion.
And no… I don’t insult people, in doing so.


Kimchi… the thing you have to understand is this:
The “Pro-Manson” folks always pull a “hit-and-run”.
They post their opinion… and then… they disappear.
They never stick around to debate their points.

You know why they leave?
Because when intelligent folks like Dilligaf, Starship, Myself, Frank, Saint, Leary (and others) start picking-apart their arguments… they’ve got nothing.
Fact is… it’s impossible to defend Manson successfully for any length of time, amongst intelligent people.
That’s why the “Pro-Manson” folks huddle together in little private groups, where no one (of sound mind) is around to question them.
You can’t defend Manson intelligently for any stretch of time, without looking like a fool.
It’s impossible, and that’s why they leave.

If you think you can do a better job than me… by all means… be my guest.
You’ll be doing me a BIG favor.
Disciplining bloggers, and dolling-out justice, is BY FAR my least favorite part of blog administration.
The task is yours, for the asking.
I’m 100% serious.

leary7 said...

The last thing in the world I want to be is a blogger who insults other bloggers.
But I am also of Irish descent. And I have a saying of the Irish...that we are blunt in our affections and even blunter in our disaffections. It's just another way of saying we call a spade a spade.
As I said before, I enjoy reading pro-Manson or anti-HS stuff. But in the cold light of dawn I can only see TLB one way. What Tex, Sadie, Pat and Leslie did had absolutely nothing to do with Abby Hoffman or the anti-war movement or the Beatles or the Dead or Kerouac or race or any other of the major Sixties factors.
They murdered because their brains were fried by drugs and Manson's nihilistic "will you die for me" schtick.
That's an opinion, Kimchi. Just an opinion. I have no problem with you disagreeing with it or arguing the opposite in the most strenuous manner. You are without question one of the most valued posters here. I apologize if the vehemence of my remarks offended you. But honestly, when folk make excuses for Manson and paint him in a martyr's light, it offends me.
I accept that blogs are places where people are going to get offended, it's just the nature of the beast. Sort of like when I bartended through college I accepted that some folks when they drank too much were going to get obnoxious. Blogs are just a place where you can stay sober and still be obnoxious, as I frequently am.

Tis the Sabbath, and the Patriots are on in an hour. Time for me to stop discussing a mass murderer for the day and enjoy the better things in life. I hope you all can do the same.

adam said...

I pretty much agree 100% with Lynyrd's character assessment of Manson. I would wish to add one more point. It's rather controversial so I choose my words carefully, but it must be said.
I cannot help but admire Manson's unbreakable spirit. He's the man they couldn't break. No matter what shit they throw at him he's still happily grinning away, singing his songs, spewing his philosophies to anyone who'll listen and living deep in his thoughts.
I wouldn't last a day in the environment he has been put in but it's just water off a ducks back to him. I have to grudgingly respect that part of him.

leary7 said...

I'm with ya Adam. Charlie may be pure evil, and he himself confesses to his meanness and such, but he clearly accepts who he is. He's never snitched. And even Doris Tate once said something to the effect that Manson didn't lie.
Which is why it bugs the hell out of me that 42 years later he still sings that idiot mantra of never having killed anyone and not having any responsibility for TLB.
That's the part that gets to me, why be so honest with everything else and yet maintain the ludicrous assertion that those seven people died because of Tex.
I honestly want to say, come on Charlie, you're better than that.
Silly, really.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Leary,

You didn't do anything wrong.

Many of the folks who visit this blog, visit ALL the blogs.
On this thread alone... we have You, Saint, Lauren, Doc, Adam, Candy, Leigh, Starship, and Fiona.
These people post on ALL the blogs.
This blog is no more "gangster" or "censored" than any of the others.
That's just nonsense.

If someone comes in here, drunk on Manson Kool-Aid, and no one agrees with their nonsense... that's not my fault.

Manson is a mentally ill bum.

Was he victimized?
Yeah probably... to an extent... but, it still doesn't change the fact, that he's a mentally ill bum.
He's a mentally ill bum, who was somewhat victimized.
That's about as far, as I'm willing to take sympathy.
Even Marlin Marynick said (in a television interview):
"How far can you take empathy"?

Truth be told Leary... the only Pro-Manson blogger that I even bother reading at this point, is AC Aldag.
I really like AC on a personal level... and she rarely takes any of this stuff to heart.
She's got thick skin, and she's a good egg.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I agree with you Adam, on one level.
I believe Manson is a survivior... and clearly a tough cookie.
I'll give him that much, as well.

But, on the other hand... I believe it's also a "defense mechanism" of sorts.

What I mean, is this:
I don't think Manson really enjoys being in prison.
Given the choice, I'm sure he'd walk out the door.
But to admit that he's miserable, would mean admitting that he "lost" (sorta speak).
I think it would be much "harder time" for Manson, if he admitted involvement.
From that perspective... he's kinda taking the easier route (once again).

To put it, another way:
Manson likes to think, that by rotting in jail defiantly, he's "proving something to the man" and society.
He HAS to believe that.
It's a defense mechanism.
To NOT believe that, is to admit that his life was a complete waste of sperm. LOL
Convincing himself that he's "proving something", allows him to believe that his life was not a complete waste.

That's the way, I see it anyway.

But yeah...
He's a survivor and a tough personality.
There's no doubt about that.

Under the circumstances, however... I'm not so sure having the inner strength to remain silent and defiant until the end, is such an admirable quality.
For a POW (prisoner of war) to remain silent and defiant to the end, is admirable.
For a criminal... not so much.

Manson could have brought a bit of peace and relief to the victim's familes, if he spilled the beans 20 years ago.
Then... he'd really have something to be proud of.
He'd never be released... but he'd have the pride of knowing, that he finally "did the right thing".
His suffering in jail, would also have greater meaning.
Instead, he's decided to go down in a futile ball of flames.
One final act of selfishness.

As I said:
I'm not so sure having the inner strength to remain silent and defiant until the end, is such an admirable quality in this case.
In a round-about way... he's taking the easy way out.
It would have required more strength on his part, to do the right thing (as is, so often the case in everyone's life).

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

At this point...
I truly believe that Manson's mind is so far gone, he doesn't even remember "the truth".

I highly doubt, that Manson could tell us what happened, even if he wanted to.

That ship has SAILED... LOL

Lauren Webster said...

I agree Lynyrd. Not like well ever know, but I wonder if he is prescribed any antipyschotics or any other sort of medication.

matt prokes said...

I think a lot of his weirdness is an act for the cameras.
I wouldn't be shocked at all if He still remembers the Reasons for what went on.
If there is a reason beyond what we already know.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Matt.

In the 70's, 80's and 90's... I would have agreed with you 100%.
I think it was all an act.
In those days... I believe everything he did was completely intentional.

Now... I think he's just gone.
Do you realize how many years that guy has been sitting in a cement box?
He must have lost touch with reality by now.

Volunteer at any soup kitchen, where elderly homeless men are fed.
You'll meet 25 "Charlie's" in one afternoon.
They've all got a million stories, and they'll talk the ear off anyone who will listen.
That's another comment which Marlin Marynick made during his television spot.
When asked to describe Manson, he said (paraphrasing):
"He reminds me of the transient men, that you encounter at soup kitchens"
(or, something to that effect)

Doc Sierra said...

matt prokes said...

I think a lot of his weirdness is an act for the cameras.
I wouldn't be shocked at all if He still remembers the Reasons for what went on.
If there is a reason beyond what we already know.
---------------------------------
I agree with you Matt. My step father was the Chief Medical Officer at CMF Vacaville in the 70s and early 80s. He said Charlies isn't crazy. He just like the attention he gets and everything he does and says are a rehearsed act for attention. Just like a neglected child, any attention, positive or negative, is better than no attention at all.

Lauren Webster said...

The mans GAF was a 75. For anyone who doesn't know, the GAF stands for global assessment functioning and rates how well one can function in society despite any mental illness they suffer with. 75 is remarkably high, as Dahmer was rated a 5.

katie8753 said...

Kimchi I really don't understand why you busted a spring.

But that's your deal.

Fiona came on like gangbusters and intentionally insulted me.

I reacted normally and didn't insult her back.

I'm surprised you didn't rail against her for me.

Anyway I like you and hope you don't leave.

But, like the maestro said....just put the balm on. LOL.

katie8753 said...

>>>Fiona said: One of the greatest tragedies of this whole story is the loss of Charles Manson and what he had to give. That was a beautiful world those people created...>>>

HA HA HA HA HA HA. That's a realy knee slapper Fiona. You got another one? HA HA.

I feel really free to express myself. Hang onto your hats! LOL

katie8753 said...

Oh sorry, I should have said a "real knee slapper". LOL

Carry on.

katie8753 said...

Fiona, just a start on you.

All of your "valid points" are bullshit. Aren't you the one who said Casey Anthony is innocent? Yes you are.

Points West!

Have a nice evening. HA HA.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Patriots advance to AFC Championship Game with 41-28 win over Texans

January 13, 2013, 7:51 pm

http://www.csnne.com/pages/video?PID=in5oTCMHtSWgb2pdaiFCSmfrQrL6K4QA

katie8753 said...

Okay that's all for tonight.

Everyone hug your chilluns, and kiss their foreheads and tell 'em to have sweet dreams.

G'Night Jugdish!

matt prokes said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...
Patriots advance to AFC Championship Game with 41-28 win over Texans

bruins start soon as well.

Doc Sierra said...


matt prokes said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...
Patriots advance to AFC Championship Game with 41-28 win over Texans
-----------------------------------
And my Niners advance to the NFC Championship for the second year in a row. I just hope that next week's game against Atlanta doesn't come down to a David Akers field goal.

leary7 said...

A Pats vs. 49'ers Super Bowl would be the balls. Brady would love it, he has been a lifelong 49'ers fan.
I'd bet ya Doc but I still owe Katie on a bet, waiting till I get back to Texas to pay her. I think I owe her a White Castle slider and a Yahoo. Is that right Katie?
Is your dad still around, Doc? I bet he has some stories. Would he be legally prohibited from telling them?
Tough weekend, but Lynyrd is right as usual, the Pats won, hockey starts soon and Charlie Manson remains only as relevant as we make him.

Doc Sierra said...

leary7 said...

A Pats vs. 49'ers Super Bowl would be the balls. Brady would love it, he has been a lifelong 49'ers fan.
I'd bet ya Doc but I still owe Katie on a bet, waiting till I get back to Texas to pay her. I think I owe her a White Castle slider and a Yahoo. Is that right Katie?
Is your dad still around, Doc? I bet he has some stories. Would he be legally prohibited from telling them?
Tough weekend, but Lynyrd is right as usual, the Pats won, hockey starts soon and Charlie Manson remains only as relevant as we make him.
---------------------------------
I love Brady. We both grew up in San Mateo County, CA. He went to Junipero Serra High School. That's the school in San Mateo County where all the great high school athletes want to play for.

I personally would rather see Baltimore and SF because both teams' head coaches are brothers.

My step father passed away in 1998. His name was Ralph E Prout MD but he went by Gene. His father at one time, I've been told, was the Dean at Pacific Union College in Angwin, CA back in the 40s or 50s. That's where Zodiac victims Bryan Hartnell and Cecilia Shepherd attended college. He new Chucky about as well as any staff member at Vacaville. He was the only doctor that Manson would see. The only story that he ever told me about Chucky is that Chucky came in complaining of hip pain. He asked Gene for a cane and Gene told him "no. A cane is weapon in prison Charlie". Charlie answered back with "Well, can I have a gun? There's people in here that want to kill me". Gene told me it soon after that that another inmate doused Chucky and lit him on fire.

katie8753 said...

Leary are you talking about the Sandusky bet? I think we upped it to a prime rib dinner with all the fixings, and a bottle of the finest champagne. LOL.

Doc, interesting stuff. Sounds like something Charlie would say.