Thursday, October 11, 2012

Fatal Vision vs. Helter Skelter
This is the type of approach that the Manson Case needs. 
Where is the Messiah who will finally put all Materiale Manson in one place?

31 comments:

starship said...

My first post and I crewed it up already...sorry Lynyrd!

In the post, if you click on the word, approach, it should take you to this link:

http://www.wildernessoferror.com/

That's the whole point of the post.

Again, my apologies....

katie8753 said...

Good job Starship! It takes practice, which I'm still doing. LOL.

I'll look at the link when I get a chance. Thanks! :)

Venus said...

I think I'm one of the few people who actually thinks Jeffrey MacDonald is innocent. Maybe he's not, but I think there's a chance that he is. Yes, I admit that it seems weird that he was the sole survivor of that murder spree, but does that automatically mean that he's guilty? No. I've read every book on the case (including the new one) and I think the guy deserves a new trial.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Starship...

No big deal.

I can fix it for ya, but the link you provided, takes me to the article for a brief second... and then flashes to the main website page... where there's basically an index, of every article on the site.

I'm assuming there's a specific article on this website, which you're referencing.

If you can give me a link to the specific article... (or, the name of the specific article) it should be an easy fix.

You actually set things up correctly... but, the word "approach" leads to the website's index, instead of the article.
That's what I'm trying to say.

Also...
It's always good to make a link stand out, by using light blue font.
In this case, for the word "approach", would be in blue.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

For the record...

I've always believed that Starship, is indeed, the "chosen one" who will finally solve this case!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

BTW Starship...

If you ever have difficulty while building a thread, just hit "save"... and "close".

It will save your work as a draft.

I can then make corrections to your draft, and post it, at our convenience.

Don't sweat it bro...
It takes some getting used to, and it's basically a trial-and-error learning experience.
Katie and Kimchi save everything as drafts, LOL

sunset77 said...

I'm only vaguely familiar with Jeffrey MacDonald, I've read a bit about it, but not enough to have a strong opinion or evidence proving guilt or innocence.

One thing I did notice on Wikipedia "MacDonald was serving his sentence at a federal prison in Cumberland, Maryland; however, in 2011 he was transferred to the New Hanover County jail in Wilmington, North Carolina, to await upcoming evidentiary hearings in his appeal." While I've never been inside the Federal pen in Cumberland, I'm somewhat familiar with it. I would describe it as a "country club", compared to most higher security state prisons.

Also, I just ran across an interview with Brooks Poston on another blog. The interview is posted on YouTube and can be heard HERE. I found it pretty interesting, it was apparently made on Oct. 3, 1969, before the Barker raid.

One thing I found out that I didn't realize, women don't have souls. I never knew this, (at least according to Charlie as quoted by Poston).

starship said...

Yes, thanks, Lynyrd...I didn't think something so seemingly simple would be so complicated!

Anyway, yes the table of contents is basically the website. The book is the book, which I have not read as of yet, but you can spend hours just on that website. It has trial transcripts, summaries, copies of internal FBI memos, all sorts of things available all in one place at just a click of the mouse! Hell, I had never even found the second LaBianca Homocide report...you had to send it to me.

I just think a whole lot of the myths of the Manson case could easily be cast aside if we had access to all the documentation this easily.

Of course, quite a bit of the Fatal Vision case documentation was created by the United States Army and the esteemed Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Tate-LaBianca's docs come mainly from...dare I say it?...gulp...sigh...the incredibly corrupt and amazingly incompetent LAPD...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

OK Starship... I see what you're saying now.

You're saying, that the TLB case, should have an "all under one roof" resource... and that website you linked to, is an example (prototype), of such a resource.

That's basically what ColScott had suggested.

I made the link blue for ya, so folks will follow the link to your example.

Great idea in theory...

But here's a few stumbling blocks:

First...
It would take hundreds (if not thousands) of hours worth of labor, to set-up such a resource correctly.
Who has that kind of time?
Most blog owners invest all their time, just maintaining their own site.
Who has an extra 5-10 hours a week to kill?

Secondly...
How could you possibly get everyone to agree, which pieces of information are indeed fact?
You'd never get all the contributors in agreement, regarding content.
Heck... we can't even review a book, with 100% concensus.
We're going to seperate fact from fiction, as a group... regarding the entire case?

Lastly...
It would require every website on the TLB subject, to voluntarily donate their materials.
I just don't see everyone on-board with that concept.
That's not gonna happen.

I just don't see it happening, but maybe I'm just a pessimist.

The hours of labor required for such a project, is the biggest obstacle.
Everyone wants such a site... but, no one wants to spearhead it.
I can't blame them.
I don't have that kind of time either...

CarolMR said...

Venus, the one thing that bothers me about Jeffrey MacDonald's possible innocence is the fact that his wife and daughters received multiple, brutal, and fatal stab wounds while he got only a few and survived. I would think the killers would want to kill the man of the house first. And MacDonald was a doctor and would know how to injure himself strategically so as not to die.

leary7 said...

Sorry to take a left turn, but I have been thinking of Bruce the past few days and have a couple of quick questions.
1. Has Bruce ever elaborated on exactly why he turned himself in? Did he discuss this in any of his parole hearings?
2. Does physical evidence exist from any of the crime scenes that Bruce is a suspect on...the Pugh, Zero, and the two Scientology kids I am thinking of. They've done remarkable things with DNA lately.
3. The Zero suicide thing seems not to have been investigated at all. And given this is the only one where it is irrefutable that Bruce was there, and the gun was wiped clean of ALL PRINTS, it would seem this would be a great place to start one last Bruce investigation.
You'd think given the real possibility of Bruce being released, an intrepid reporter out in Cal would take a shot at the unsolved murders that Bruce seems connected to.
If I was a rich man...yada dada do.

katie8753 said...

Venus! Good to see you! :)

I think MacDonald was having an affair and if his wife found out about it, he could get in big trouble being in the Army if she told anyone. That could lead to dishonorable discharge or even a court martial. Which would give him good reason to be rid of his wife.

Carol, I'm with you. If crazed hippies come in and stab and bludgeon you'd think no one would be left standing. If he was trying to imitate the Manson killings, I guess he didn't realize that there wasn't a soul left alive at those killings.

Helena was a drug-crazed nut job. I really don't believe a word she says.

leary7 said...

is there a McDonald blog somewhere?

katie8753 said...

>>>Leary said: 1. Has Bruce ever elaborated on exactly why he turned himself in? Did he discuss this in any of his parole hearings?>>>

He said Charlie told him to come back and "join the family".

>>>2. Does physical evidence exist from any of the crime scenes that Bruce is a suspect on...the Pugh, Zero, and the two Scientology kids I am thinking of. They've done remarkable things with DNA lately.>>>

As far as Pugh goes, they didn't investigate it at all. They just decided he killed himself. Which is bogus. Bruce was with Zero when he died.

>>>3. The Zero suicide thing seems not to have been investigated at all. And given this is the only one where it is irrefutable that Bruce was there, and the gun was wiped clean of ALL PRINTS, it would seem this would be a great place to start one last Bruce investigation.>>>

Again, no investigation. I guess it's easier just to say someone killed themselves and close the file.

>>>You'd think given the real possibility of Bruce being released, an intrepid reporter out in Cal would take a shot at the unsolved murders that Bruce seems connected to.>>>

That's the problem. The police didn't connect Bruce to these murders. It would be awfully hard to find any clues that would connect Bruce after all these years, I would think. The trail has gone cold.

matt prokes said...

The 'Fatal vision' case is an interesting one,I've been looking in the local libraries for the new book with no success.
'Fatal justice' is another good book on the case.
Heres a youtube video of an interview with Helena Stoeckley.She was thought by many to have been part of the cult that comitted the murders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBqkx2SYQbY&feature=related

leary7 said...

with all respect and such, Katie, I disagree that "the trail has gone cold". The other people who were in the house when Zero died are still alive, looking at their mortality and just may be more willing to talk. And as I said, the advances in DNA testing over the past decade is astounding. If there is any physical evidence from any of those crime scenes it just seems to me worth the test. Bruce had to give a DNA sample as a prisoner, did he not.
I mean it is possible that Bruce is what he claims to be, and that he didn't lift a finger against Gary, just prodded Shorty on the shoulder and said no on the TLB nights.
On the other hand, he could be the biggest killer of em all. I am sure Nancy Pittman would have some insight on that. Sure would be nice to at least try to get someone to talk.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Wow...

I always love it, when there's several conversations taking place simultaneously.
It gets my juices flowing! LOL!

HAVE AT IT, FOLKS!!!

Venus said...

Carol and Katie, that's the thing that bothers me. I even said it in my post, it is very strange that he was the sole survivor. I can't explain why, but I still think there's a chance that he might be innocent. Read the new book, it has some interesting thoughts in it. One line that stuck with me was that "he had the hands of a healer, not a murderer." (I paraphrased that so it's not the exact quote, but I'm sure you get the idea.)

It seems very odd to me that all was well with his in-laws (who even said that, if they had another daughter, they'd still like the same son-in-law) until he chose to move across country to start a new life.

As I said, I'm not saying that he IS innocent, just that he MIGHT be.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Prokes...

I've been wanting to pass some ideas by you, for a few weeks now.
I've just been too damn busy, to get around to it.

I'll probably be emailing you, in the coming days...

Stay tuned...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

VENUS!!!!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

By the way...

Last night, I viewed that documentary (Manson - Born to Kill) which Cease2 reviewed, and Laura donated.

I enjoyed watching it.
There's nothing really new, but it moved-along at a good pace.
It's not one of those movies that re-hash things so slowly, you want to hang yourself.
It actually kept me quite entertained.

Like I said... I enjoyed it.

katie8753 said...

>>>Leary said: with all respect and such, Katie, I disagree that "the trail has gone cold". The other people who were in the house when Zero died are still alive, looking at their mortality and just may be more willing to talk.>>>

Leary, I'd bet my last dollar that anyone else who was in the house when Zero died will go to their grave without talking. They could be indicted for murder as well. There's no statute.

>>> And as I said, the advances in DNA testing over the past decade is astounding. If there is any physical evidence from any of those crime scenes it just seems to me worth the test.>>>

The police know that Bruce was with Zero. They don't have to prove he was there. I'm not sure what DNA would be used to convict him in Zero's murder. And as far as Pugh goes, they just had a look around and decided he killed himself. According to Bugliosi, they didn't even dust for prints.

Venus said...

LYNYRD!!!!!!!!!!

(((((HUGS)))))

sunset77 said...

Leary mentioned Bruce Davis and his motives for turning himself in, I've heard at least 3.

In the YouTube vid when Davis turns himself in, a news reporter asks if anyone is being "cut loose" in exchange for Davis turning himself in, and mentions Mary Brunner. Davis just does one of his stupid giggles, (he was probably on acid.) Although, it seems to me that Mary Brunner did go free when she almost certainly was an accessory to the murder of Gary Hinman, I've often wondered about that.

I've also heard that Davis turned himself in because Manson told him to, I've also heard his mother told him to. As twisted as Davis mind was then, I doubt if Davis himself knows why he did it.

Also, as far as "Zero" is concerned, there is certainly circumstantial evidence against Davis, but apparently not enough to charge him with murder.

1) Who plays Russian Roulette with a fully loaded revolver?

2) Davis admitted to wiping the fingerprints from the gun, why did he do that?

3) When Lauren Willett was murdered, it seems to me, other Manson family members also claimed she "committed suicide". Very suspicious.

4) The Manson gang were a group of notorious murderers, that in itself is suspicious.

katie8753 said...

Matt, thanks for the link. I listened to about 10 minutes of it and couldn't take it anymore. LOL. That girl's brain is wasted.

If they went there for Jeffrey MacDonald to "straighten him out", why did they kill everyone BUT him.

That doesn't make any sense. This girl has changed her story over and over again. She's completely unbelievable.

katie8753 said...

Sunset, you make some good points. It's amazing how many people "committed suicide" that were involved with the Manson family....

Kimchi said...

Leary asked:

"3. The Zero suicide thing seems not to have been investigated at all. And given this is the only one where it is irrefutable that Bruce was there, and the gun was wiped clean of ALL PRINTS, it would seem this would be a great place to start one last Bruce investigation."

As we all know, death certs, coroner reports, certain police reports are public record...

My experience with the "Zero" reports were:

I contacted the Coroner's office in LA trying to get a copy of the report...apparently it was "lost" or misfiled, anyway, it is not available. I personally went to the Hall of Records trying to retrieve it and it was not to be found...or at least that is what I was told...

Cats has the police report on her forum at Truthontatelabianca.com but it only states what we already know...

There's no statute of limitations for homicide, so for all we know, it could be "still" under investigation.... yes, I know, it was ruled a suicide... but do we really know that or is that what Law Enforcement is telling us????

leary7 said...

I could buy that Charlie "told" Bruce to turn himself in, but that raises the question would Bruce have done so out of blind loyalty or did Charlie have something on him, like the Pugh killing?
As far as finding DNA evidence, of course it is a long shot. But it has panned out in numerous other cases. And I personally don't buy the argument that because nobody has talked that means nobody will talk. People change, they find God, they grow a conscious. Who was the girl screwing Zero when he shot himself, Madiline Jo Cottage or such? How do we know she wouldn't talk if nobody has asked her in the last forty years.
It just seems that the police and the Justice Dept decided at some point, screw it, we got Charlie and Tex, the damn trial was the most expensive in history, let's let all the rest slide.
That pisses me off no end.

Josh Bratt said...

I agree Leary......way too many loose ends in this. The biggest loose end being Tex and Shorty. I don't understand how that whole thing hasn't been tied up. Seems weird to me to let it sit. The Zero incident is odd too. Maybe there was so much hearsay and speculation that they were unable to tie a lot of things up neatly.

Marliese said...

I didn't know them obviously, but i would hope that Mildred and Freddie Kassab weren't ugly and vindictive, but loving and kind...and devastated...after carefully connecting the pieces and evidence, to realize that the son in law they once loved and admired had murdered their daughter and grandchildren. I can't imagine their agony...coping with the brutal murders, and then the horror that the murderer was someone they loved and trusted. I think it was their increasing awareness of the evidence, along with MacDonald's deceit that turned them against him, not his move across the country. I admire Freddie's strength and resolve.

Also think that 'stoned hippie killers' chanting 'kill the pigs' or whatever made up words he invented for his imaginary story, would not have left a fit, grown man alive with minimal injuries, while beating, bludgeoning and killing a young woman and her two little girls...

He may have had the hands of a healer, but he used those healing hands in a speed fueled rage that escalated in murder. And he used his highly trained, healing hands to carefully administer non life threatening injuries to himself.
He has been given every possible benefit of justice, and been to the U.S. Supreme Court...how many times? Seven i think, in one part or another.

The dna didn't match helena stoeckley or anyone supposedly with her...a known, mentally disturbed drug addict. She lied, she took it back, she denied, she lied again, she embellished, she took it back again. Everything she knew about the murders had been published or known around town. At one point, she was taken to the Castle Drive apt and didn't recognize the place...! She even got her own stories messed up...lies and make believe are not credible, even to the liar I guess.

I like what Joe McGinnis said recently..."Jeffrey MacDonald is not in prison because of me, and he won't be leaving prison because of Erroll Morris." May not be an exact quote, but close enough.

I am hoping his convictions will be upheld...again, just as they have been again and again in the past. But if he does get a new trial, I doubt there would be any shortage of defense attorneys willing to represent him, i think he'll be convicted again. Maybe that's what it's going to take...a new trial and millions more...earned and spent, for this to finally end once and for all...but it will be years and years from now, if he lives long enough, and i hope he does...

katie8753 said...

Hi Marliese. I agree with you 100%....