What... no love for Charlie? : )
The Soul is outta the hole. Time for more cell phone texting. LOL. :)
Soul?As in, ass-soul? LOL!
My own guess is that a 77 year old mentally ill inmate, perhaps even being in the throes of Alzheimers at this point, really can't distinguish much from being alone in the dark to being someplace better than that.But if he can, glad things are on the uptick.
I asked my husband what his thoughts were on this, he said "they need to put him back". Nope, no love for Charlie, Lynyrd .....lol
I agree Tom... At this point, I say give the guy his damn guitar and a couple "conjugals" with Star. LOL!He's on the final stretch...
Give the old kook his props,From bastard from Kentucky to orphan of Boys Town to inmate at Terminal Island to mediocre musician from Spahn Ranch....He did become one of the most famous men of all time. And we discuss that mystery still today.
Yep, 100 years from now he will be like billy the kid or Jessie james.....maybe sooner than that....
Thanx AC Aldag Fisher for the info. I didn't know the "Manson Direct" website was even being updated. Apparently, he must have done approximately 11 months in solitary. I did 6 months in one of those concrete tombs, I'm sure that for a 77 year old man it was pretty rough no matter how much of a hard ass he is.I know from experience that there is not much difference between "the hole" and "his regular unit". I don't know if he's allowed in the yard at all or if he has contact with other inmates. That has it's own set of risks. To be honest, I didn't expect him to come out of that cell alive. I'll be interested to see if he gets his guitar back, if he has visitors and what they say, etc.
Interesting that you say that Kimchi. I read Marlin's book recently and there was a blurb in there about some of Chralie's supporters that truly believe in a 100 years Charlie will be widely seen as a folk hero and some sort of prophet.Ain't never gonna happen.For tying up the LaBiancas and participating in Shorty's stabbing and starting the violence against Gary, Manson is never going to be able to shed the "cold blooded killer" tag no matter how much he protests that he never killed anyone.But I was thinking about this - about reviled figures that somehow got redeemed. The two American ones that come to mind first for me are Quanah Parker, the great Comanchee chief, and Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon religion. Both were hated and despised and widely regarded as evil figures at one time but both today are venerated.Now that would be an interesting job for one of those media/political spin doctors who "shape" public opinion - spinning Manson.How will Charlie be viewed in 2100? It would make an interesting thread Lynyrd.
Ok Leary, I hear ya... But I have to agree to disagree about the folk hero stuff...I already see it happening... I've seen and heard what the people that visit barker ranch say... Lots and lots of them....it's already legend out here in the west....
Sunset, thanks for your input... I wondered what the hole was like, though I'd never want to witness it first hand of course... Tell us more if you will...
Leary, now you got me thinking.....There are no signs what so ever leading to or from where Spahn or barker ranch was or is... Why are there so many visitors and/or gawkers ALL THE TIME? It is actually hard to get to barkersout you didn't know where you are going, there are no signs yet it is a big tourist attraction 100 miles from no where ....I tell you, he's already a legend... Hate me for saying this but it's true....
The "hole" today is not what we envision. He has light, air conditioning when it is hot (as it is today in Corcoran), heat when it is cool, daily contact with staff, etc... It is not as bad as it sounds, but I would not like to be there myself.As far as the cell phone access, it gives an entirely new meaning to butt dialing...
Kimchi, this is actually the kind of discussion I truly love. Can Charlie's image/reputation be substantially altered???I am with ya that there is a strong "folk hero" bent already in place. And I do believe if Charlie had a strong personality in place as his spokesperson (I am just not a Star fan at all) things would be even more to his advantage.But Billy the Kid and Jesse James, both ruthless killers, have effectively had "evil" taken off their resumes so to speak. I just believe Charlie will always have the evil tag because of the gruesome nature of the killings and just the overall weirdness of the situation.Obviously all of Charlie's ATWA predictions will come true but nobody (save a few fanatics) take Charlie seriously as an environmentalist. Where Charlie's rep might take a upswing is if his predictions of a race war come to bear. With all the protests and violence this past week it is not hard to envision a Muslim/Christianity clash somewhere down the road.Charlie's "race war" may yet happen. Charlie Manson, 2120. Tis an interesting comtemplation.
Kimchi asked about "the hole".At MCTC in Hagerstown MD, I was held in a solitary cell about twice as large as a regular cell. However, there was nothing in it. 4 walls a concrete floor and ceiling. I was in that cell 8 days, stark naked, without food or water. There was a combination toilet/sink, it was turned off. I had to drink the water from the toilet to survive. I could sit, stand, or lay on the concrete floor, naked, that was it. The only small window was in the cell door. I could see enough daylight from the windows at the end of the corridor to tell if it was daylight or dark. About noon on the 8th day, they opened the cell door, gave me a prison jumpsuit, cuffed up, and transferred me to supermax. I had lost a lot of weight. The second time I was in the "hole" was in supermax, 401 East Madison St. Baltimore MD. They called the hole "the cadre" there. I think someone on the top tier threw water on the guards, they thought it was me, about 6 guards ran up in the cell, kicked and stomped me, I'm almost certain they broke my rib, and dragged me to the cadre. That cell had nothing also, a concrete slab to lay on, no blanket or mat, it did have sink/toilet that was turned on. I was shackled and cuffed to the waist in that cell for 6 months. Eating, and using the toilet was extremely difficult with my hands cuffed to my waist. About 2 weeks before my release from prison they moved me back to my "regular unit", when my sentence expired, they released me.I don't know exactly what conditions Manson is being held in, I'm guessing they are similar to what they were for me. I've heard several times Manson is a "special case" and it may be different for him.
#1-thanks Dill- I suspect the ACLU may keep an eye on Calif penetenturies as they do in LA County and they get better treatment than what Sunset was describing....#2- Leary - I hear what you're saying about the evil stuff, but that was all brought about by the media - they loved it and sensationalized it and still are....don't get me wrong, Manson was and still is a bad guy, he is where he belongs, but Tex Watson never got the notoriety he so deserved... "Notorius" I should say....that man destroyed so much life needlessly.... I can't express the hate I have for him. #3- Sunset - that is horrible conditions - as I stated above, does the ACLU intervene at all? They do in Calif, particularly in LA County jails....what you described is down right inhumane....
Leary, I don't mean to bag on this, but all the documentaries made over the last 40+ years, rarely, is the name Watson brought up....So, once again, as I believe, the media is the one "assisting" in making Charles Manson an outlaw of the West, if you will....Hey, when I was a pre-teen the movie Bonnie and Clyde was hot.... My mom was horrified when I came home mimicking Bonnie, I thought they were so cool in the movie...mom set me straight, believe me..but we honestly walked out of that theatre thinking Bonnie and Clyde were it....Hollywood wow...the power they had/have.....
There is no air conditioning in Corcoran State Prison, Diligraf.And they feed you... gack... dead animal muscles and bone marrow and blood. Yuck. Charles can't have packages / canteen with real food -- veggies, fruit and grains -- when he's in the hole.Sunset, what happened to you sounds like a human rights violation. Amnesty international, anyone?
AC -ewwwwe....do you know how big the cell is? For anyone interested in the investigation going on at Men's Cental Jail in LA visit witnessla.com/lasdSupposedly the Feds are involved .... We shall see...Rogue deputies beating inmates to earn a tattoo....pleeze.....
I am in absolute agreement with you Kimchi that the media has played a huge part in developing Charlie's rep. But the Bug and Charlie himself rank right up there too. Nobody wanted to focus on Watson because he is both a creepy animal and a bore. Charlie Manson is anything but a bore.That's the thing about Manson, at least for me, he is his own worse enemy. I truly believe he convicted himself by his actions during the trial. And his behavior since being jailed has only served to enhance his "evil" rep.Can CHarlie's rep be "rehabilitated" once he is gone???It is a great question.
By the way, Kimchi, I never understood why the relatives of Bonnie and Clyde didn't sue the Tex govt and the Rangers in particular big time. Frank Hammer and his posse made no attempt whatsoever to arrest Bonnie and Clyde. They just flat out ambushed and murdered them. It was vigilante justice in its rawest form.
AC,Based upon the design of the buildings, there is HVAC controlling the temperature. It may not be what you or I would typically call air conditioning, but it is.In re the food, it meets all of the requried nutritional standards required. If the inmate behaves, has money in their account, they can access the commisary to purchase additional food products to supplement what is provided to them. The great thing about prison food is that if you wish to avoid it, simple, do not commit a crime.Back to the condition of the cell, I can assure you that the Wooly Hophead is enjoying the conditions at Corcoran much more than he did at Old Folsom....
PS I reread my statement I do know AC is very involved in gardening and she has always promoted natural organic gardening canning etc from what I have seen-so I didnt mean to say all -
Oh Good Lord...Charlie Manson has been cared for by the State of California for the last 43 years...he's nearly 80 years old, it can't be too bad or he'd have croaked long ago. When photos of him show up through the years, he doesn't look poorly nourished.On another note, anyone interested in that other baby killing liar, Jeff MacDonald? He seems to believe his own lies...great example of tell a big enough lie over and over again, and get enough people to believe it, and one day you believe it's the truth too.
Dilligraf, vegetarians are supposed to be provided with edible food, just as Jews and Muslims are supposed to be provided with dinners that haven't dead pigs in them.They aren't.We worry more about our political enemies than we do about American prisoners... Gods forbid we serve pig to a Muslim prisoner in a POW camp.No, they haven't air conditioning in the cells. Admin offices might have it. There ARE big fans, which are turned on when the temps get over 100 degrees.
The cells are, I believe, seven by nine, meant for two prisoners, but there aren't enough inmates in PHU to merit double bunking.Not sure how big the cells in SHU are.
Yup, I do organic gardening, and can / freeze / dry about 1/2 our food. Currently up to my eyeballs in Roma tomatoes... drought didn't affect 'em.
AC,I have been in both the SHU's and the PHU's during the hot valley summers, and they are much more comfortable than many of the houses that the local ag workers live in. It is also more comfortable than many members of our own military experience, so I am not too sympathetic to living in a building which, by your standards, might be a bit warm. In re vegetarians, Jews, and Muslims, I hope you are not stating that vegetarians have the same constitutional rights that recognized religions do. The food is edible, it is not designed to be gourmet. There is a big difference between something notg tasting good and have a substance your religion forbids mixed in.On a side note, I am curious about your tomatos, I am envious of your Roma's. Have you ever grown heirloom tomato's? What did you use as a soil supplement to provide nourishment during the dry periods?
The yard is open, the yard is open.Charles Manson is held in the California State Prison, "CSP". Their website indicates a number of different "units" replete with different security levels. Manson's prison ID number is B33920, (I still have my ID card with my number, but I'm not going to post it here). There is a vid of a TV show on YouTube called "Lockup", it shows the inside of CSP Corcoran. It can be seen here. It does NOT show Manson, or the Protective Housing Unit "PHU". Near the end of the vid, it does show an inmate being released from the Secure Housing Unit "SHU", back to his regular unit. It appears to me he is in what we called a "bullpen", through the windows in the background I can see what we called a "pod". It looks exactly like the pods I was held in the the supermax I was in. Whether there are other or worse cells at CSP I don't know, but there probably are, they are the ones they don't show on TV.The yard is closed, the yard is closed.
Marliese, I've been following this new MacDonald saga for the past few days. Lots of strange stuff popping up about the girl in the floppy hat. But, on the other side of the coin, it's been said that perhaps the NEW Mrs. MacDonald (yes there was someone dumb enough to marry him too) has been strong-arming people to come forward with new evidence.Let's see if he gets a new trial. If so, all that sordid killing back in 1970 will be re-broadcast...more hippy killers.
Hey, katie and Marliese,Just read this review over the weekend. Sounds pretty interesting. I wonder if we might somehow get Mr. Morris to look into the Manson Case?http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/books/errol-morris-takes-on-macdonald-murder-case.html?pagewanted=all&gwh=A804F3181F760FFB3A432875BA0D4478
Thanks Starship. I read where that book is coming out. I read Fatal Vision and saw the movie and was convinced beyond the shadow of any doubt that MacDonald was guilty. In the movie, he came across as a lying, conceited cad. I don't know if that's reality or not.The prosecution has been accused of dirty dealings in this case. In fact, I saw on the news yesterday that the original prosecutor has been disbarred for forging judges' names to different documents.I think that MacDonald has exhausted all his appeal attempts and this is his last ditch effort to get out.We'll see what happens. :)Check this out: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/09/18/168950/nothing-new-in-jeffrey-macdonalds.html
I'm reminded of the home invasion in Connecticut of Dr. William Petit, which left his wife & daughters brutally murdered but he survived.He was never a suspect, and it was simply a random home invasion perpetrated by Hayes & Komisarjevsky.
Starship and Katie, thanks for the links. As Colette's brother has said for years, this is nothing new. Katie, thanks for the information about Kathryn MacDonald...very interesting, seems she was involved with preparing a statement from Helena's elderly, blind mother. hmmm.She was also arrested in the last year or two for shoplifting at Rite Aid. LOL! I understand she blows kisses to her baby killing husband in the courtroom during the hearing. Helena was a mentally ill drug addict, known around the area, and known to spin tales. i have a vague recollection of reading about some contact she may have had with Jeff MacDonald in a hospital emergency room where he worked (and took speed to stay awake) a second job at night... Can't remember details...it's been so long since i studied this...i think he refused to give her drugs or something like that when she showed up in the e.r. ? Point being I think he knew her, or of her, knew her floppy hat, knew she was a whack and placed her there saying 'acid is groovy, kill the pigs' in his sorry ass tale. (who would say that? LOL! Tex sure didn't.) It's stupid and made up. And wouldn't "I'll indict you for murder" or "you'll be indicted for murder" (if you tell that story in court) be a logical remark for a prosecutor to make to a nutcase claiming to have been in the house during the murders? How is that some bombshell threat? And tiny bits of hair under a fingernail of one of the baby girls not matching anyone in the house does not clear her father of killing her. All of the victims were of different blood groups, and the blood map is devastating to MacDonald, as is the pajama top, and Colette's injuries from his rage and vicious beating of her...I was looking for the Larry King interview with Kathryn, and found one with Jeff instead. He doesn't sound like an innocent man...he's got his whine down, none of it logical. And he's sneaky with how much he reveals...doesn't want to be tripped up i guess.He says he heard Colette screaming Jeff why are they doing this. So easy to wonder if the likely truth is Jeff why are YOU doing this...And he says he'll never forget his baby daughter calling out Daddy, Daddy, Daddy. I believe him...she probably was calling out, screaming, begging her father to stop hurting her so. I remember when he was arrested in Southern California and i wanted so much to believe he was innocent, and you just feel sick when you study it and realize the evidence overwhelmingly makes him guilty. And how many judges and appeals have ended with agreeing that it's true, he is guilty. I used to be fascinated with this back in the years when he was at the Men's Colony...with Tex and Bruce. And while there are always supporters here and there, it seems interesting there are more than a few of his fellow Green Berets that didn't doubt for one second that he did it...back in the day. That obviously isn't evidence, interesting nonetheless.
MARLIESE!!! I totally agree with you. I can't imagine for a minute that this guy is innocent. It was just too easy...It's hard to imagine any man killing his pregnant wife and little children in such cold blood, worse than Tex ever thought of, stabbing senselessly, breaking bones and spilling blood everywhere.Dr. MacDonald's injuries were not life threatening. He could have inflicted them on himself easily and knew he wouldn't die.Then blame it all on "Manson hippy types" and get away with it. Writing "pigs" on the headboard in blood.This new woman who married this loser is more psychotic than usual. It's one nutty thing to marry a convicted killer. But another completely psychotic thing to marry a convicted killer who is accused of killing his own wife and family.Look at Stacy Peterson.....sad.Dr. MacDonald had 9 years to talk to the "woman in the floppy hat". She was so drugged out she didn't know what day it was. And she died young of drug use. Her mother wasn't a whole lot better.This is just so "usual"...a loser woman marries a convicted killer, then gets tired of him always being in prison, tries to get him out, it doesn't work, then she finally leaves this loser and finds someone else. "Dr." MacDonald doesn't have a lot of time left. LOL.Same old story...different day....
Hi Katie, you know, i confused him with Davis earlier...being at the Mens Colony...Macdonald has probably always been incarcerated in Federal prisons.I'm frustrated with myself, getting all hooked on this case again! After all these years. :) With your link, i studied a bit about Helena's mother's statement...that Kathryn was suppoedly involved in preparing. Her statements don't match! Good grief.The former prosecutor is denying that he threatened Helena, says the Marshall claiming to have been there at the time wasn't even in the room, and that he wouldn't have been allowed in the room anyway.And the same marshall apparently lied about transporting Helena, where he claimed she confessed to him...they say he wasn't even the one to transport her...He was a troublesome employee etc etc. It's all blowing smoke.And there is no dna match to any of the 'suspects' or the victims for the three hairs! One found near the outline of Colette's body, one on their bedspread i think, one under the fingernail of one of the girls. There is nothing, no blood, no dna, of Helena's or the two men supposedly with her, in the house. I just don't see how those hairs could oppose all of the overwhelming evidence against him....upheld through several appeals.I hope it's the end now, hope it's over finally for Colette's surviving family, and i hope this hearing shuts the door once and for all on Jeffrey MacDonald.
Marliese, this whole thing doesn't make sense or add up.Why would the prosecutor threaten Helena? Why would he railroad MacDonald? What would he possibly get out of that?And Helena was such a drug addict, she probably would say anything for a fix.Like you said, there's no DNA evidence supporting MacDonald's claims. This seems to be another fishing expedition.His last one.
I hope so, Katie. Looking around for all the latest, I saw that he refused to admit guilt or show remorse in a recent parole hearing...something about why would i, i didn't do it, and so the parole hearing abruptly ended. He's not eligible to apply again until 2020.I remember reading Fatal Vision, back in the late 80's or so, a co-worker was reading it at the same time, about half way through...no idea about the thing with McGinnis, i cautiously said 'you know, i think he might be guilty' and she turned to me and said 'Guilty?? He's guilty as sin!!!'Okay, i'm done with the sob. :)
Thanks Marliese. I read Fatal Vision and saw the movie in the 80's and I had no doubt that this guy was guilty. And I doesn't matter to me who wrote a new book on the subject.I agree with you completely! :)
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