Wednesday, October 5, 2011

Starship Shares a TLB-Related Excerpt From the Book:
"Fire and Rain: The Beatles, Simon & Garfunkel, James Taylor, CSNY and the Lost Story of 1970", by David Browne. Copyright 2011

Starship provides some background/bibliography:
Browne is a writer for Rolling Stone magazine.
For this book, he apparently had access to Rolling Stone's vast archives of information, including previously unpublished interviews which he mentions quite a bit. The bibliography for this book cites 48 other books, HELTER SKELTER among them. Additionally he cites a number of articles, two of which are relevant here:

1)  A Washington Post Article (whose abtract I cannot get to paste correctly), titled "Beatle Asked to Testify at Tate Trial", published Oct 29, 1970
The defense wants John Lennon of the Beatles to testify in the Sharon Tate murder trial on whether one of the group's songs could have inspired Charles Manson to violence.

2) A New York Times article, titled "Tate Jury Denied Death-Site Visit; Judge in Trial of Manson Bars After-Dark Trip" By Earl Caldwell, January 19, 1971, Page 29.
[ DISPLAYING ABSTRACT ]
LOS ANGELES, Jan. 18 -- The Tate-La Bianca jury interrupted its deliberations today with a surprising request for permission to make an after-dark visit to the sites of the murders for which Charles M. Manson and his women co-defendants are being tried.
Browne also claims as primary source materials interviews he conducted in person, by phone, or over email between November 2008 and September 2010. Relevant here is that he lists Nils Lofgren Danny Kortchmar, Dan Richter, and Vincent Bugliosi as people he interviewed during this time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Now for the Excerpt of TLB-Related Text/Info:
As Charles Manson stared at him, an "X" mark freshly carved into his forehead with a razor blade (the infamous swastika came later), "Vincent Bugliosi prepared to tell the world why Manson had convinced some of his followers to kill. Bugliosi knew some in the legal community would think the sad-eyed deputy district attorney of Los Angeles County was crazy. But now, in the Hall of Justice on the morning of July 24, the first day of the State of California vs. Charles Manson and six of his follow­ers, Bugliosi knew the time had arrived to tell the world that the Beat­les indirectly had something to do with it.
 
Rumors about the connection between Manson and the Beatles had first circulated in February, when an unnamed source in the District At­torney's office told the Los Angeles Times that prosecutors in the case were examining a possible link between the killers and the White Album. The story spread when it was picked up by the New York Post the following day. As laid out by the source—not Bugliosi, who denied talking to any­one in the media before the trial had begun—the idea seemed too fan­tastical to be true. Manson envisioned a coming war between blacks and whites in which only Manson and his followers would survive. The best way to inaugurate the war was to slaughter a bunch of white people in Los Angeles and make it appear as if African Americans had committed the crimes.
 
The story only grew stranger as it continued. To Manson, the entire tale was laid out in the White Album. He interpreted "Honey Pie" (which beckoned someone to "sail across the ocean") as the Beatles’ message to him. "Happiness Is a Warm Gun" was a communiqué to blacks telling them to prepare to rise up and fight; "Blackbird" sup­posedly served the same purpose. The war itself would be called "Helter Skelter," another song on the record; the battle was laid out in the chaotic noise of "Revolution 9." In another supposed sign of his bond with the Beatles, Manson claimed he'd renamed Susan Atkins "Sadie" long before the album's "Sexy Sadie." On it went—all of it, according to Bugliosi's theory, culminating in the grisly murders the previous Au­gust of eight-months-pregnant actress Sharon Tate, coffee heiress Abi­gail Folger, hairdresser Jay Sebring, writer Wojiciech Frykowski, teenager Steven Parent, and supermarket executive Leno LaBianca and his wife Rosemary.
 
When the Times and Post stories emerged, the prevailing feeling was disbelief; Rolling Stone ran a skeptical commentary on the reports. But Bugliosi was convinced after two Family members, Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins, told him separately about Manson's consuming obsession with the album.
 
In the valleys and canyons of Los Angeles, Manson's ties with rock and roll were well known; he'd spooked plenty in the music community. Two years earlier, he and members of the Family had crashed at the home of Beach Boy Dennis Wilson; Wilson went so far as to oversee demos of Manson singing his own songs. One of them, "Cease to Exist" (retitled "Never Learn Not to Love" by Wilson), wound up on a Beach Boys album. Returning to his apartment one day, Danny Kortchmar, James Taylor's lead guitarist, found his place ransacked, guitars and equipment gone. Later, Kortchmar heard the Family may have been re­sponsible; Manson, he heard, dispatched members of his flock to rob musicians' homes so Manson would have the gear necessary to fulfill his fantasy of being a rock star. Manson had also been angry with record producer Terry Melcher, who'd expressed interest in recording an album of Manson's songs until he saw the dark side of the diminutive cult leader. Melcher had previously lived at the Cielo Drive house where the Tate murders were committed.
 
Near Neil Young's home in Topanga Canyon, everyone knew about Manson. While staying in the house of David Briggs, Young's friend and producer, Nils Lofgren heard the stories about Manson's crew and saw the weapons Briggs and his friends were storing in case they came by. One day, Lofgren and Bobby Morse, one of Briggs' roommates, went to Briggs' home to pick up something for a session. "Oh, no, it's that crazy bitch," Morse said, gesturing at a girl in front of the house, standing be­side a car with a flat tire. The girl asked to see another of their room­mates. "He's not here," Morse said curtly. "You gotta get out of here." They quickly replaced her tire, but when the girl insisted on staying, Morse told her she couldn't. "They're bad people," Morse told Lofgren after she left, "and we don't want 'em here." Months later, when Manson and Family members were arrested on charges of murder, Lofgren rec­ognized the girl as one of the accomplices.
 
The chilly repercussions extended to the U.K. Just before the mur­ders, Dan Richter was living at the home Lennon had owned before Tittenhurst. Afraid the Lennons were next in line and that the killers might discover where he lived, the Richters moved, at Lennon and Ono's invi­tation, to Tittenhurst.
 
In his opening statement in court, Bugliosi hardly minced words when relaying his theory. "The evidence will show Manson's fanatical obses­sion with 'Helter Skelter,' a term he got from the English musical group the Beatles," he told the jury. "Manson was an avid follower of the Bea­tles and believed that they were speaking to him across the ocean through the lyrics of their songs." To bolster his case, Bugliosi entered the White Album as evidence, along with a door from Spahn Ranch (where the Family had been living) on which "Helter Skelter" had been scrawled. The lyrics to the songs were read into evidence.
 
To Bugliosi's surprise, no public outcry greeted his theory. Leaving the courtroom that day, no reporters besieged him to ask for further details. He didn't know whether to be shocked or not. Bugliosi himself never heard from any of the Beatles or their representatives. Even if the public, press or his fellow lawyers thought he was insane, the jury made it clear it took his theory seriously. During the trial, they requested a stereo for the delib­eration room along with their own copy of the Beades' two-LP set.
 
For a moment, the Beatles themselves were almost pulled into the case when Manson's defense team sent a writ to Lennon to testify. "We feel he may want to explain the lyrics," a member of the team told the As­sociated Press. Reached for comment by the press, Apple spokesman Derek Taylor was pithy as always. Requesting Lennon's presence at the trial, he said, was "like summoning Shakespeare to explain Macbeth." Be­sides, he added, it was McCartney, not his former band partner, who wrote "Helter Skelter." The plan ran aground when Manson's lawyers couldn't find a way to physically administer summonses to each Beatle. Apparently, none of them knew that, during the jury-selection process that began in mid June, Lennon was in their very city, undergoing pri­mal scream therapy.
 
Five months later, Rolling Stone's Wenner asked Lennon about the trial and Manson's interpretations of some of his songs. "He's balmy, he's like any other Beatle kind of fan who reads mysticism into it," he said of Manson. "... I don't know, what's 'Helter Skelter' got to do with knif­ing somebody? I've never listened to the words properly, it was just noise." The trial and the association was just another death knell for his former band.
Thanks Starship!!  You Rock!!
 "Click" below to view a video interview of the Author... David Browne.
video

147 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Starship!
Great Stuff as Always!!!

We're very fortunate to have your contributions here at LSB3.COM.

Now... I just have to read the article more closely and comment, when I have a chance.

That's the trouble sometimes with this "administration" job...
I spend so much time getting threads posted, it takes me a while, to catch-up in the comments section, and actually participate in the discussion. LOL
But, I usually do... (catch-up, that is)...

Thanks Again Starship... Your Help, Research and Knowledge are Much Appreciated!!
You ROCK!

starship said...

Thanks, Lynyrd. Great additions of pictures and the video interview from Morning Joe...I never caught that one.

Ergo, YOU ROCK, Lynyrd!

katie8753 said...

Very interesting stuff Starship! Thanks.

I had never heard that about James Taylor's guitarist's equipment being stolen, supposedly by the Manson Family. I'd never heard that they even knew James Taylor.

Well that's one way to get good equipment...just steal it. LOL.

I wonder which of the girls was the "crazy bitch with the flat tire".

katie8753 said...

Well this confirms what we've said on this blog before.

Bugliosi didn't make Helter Skelter up. He heard it from Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins.

Bugliosi was just as flabbergasted as everyone else that this could even be possible.

katie8753 said...

This book supports what I've always thought, that the only person who was really interested in Charlie's music was Dennis Wilson. He's the one who was pushing Manson's music on other people.

The rest of the music world thought he was nuts. And some of them even thought he was dangerous BEFORE the murders. Interesting.

Cease2 said...

I'm betting that the Bobby Morse who clocked the "crazy bitch" is the same Robert Morse currently starring in Mad Men as "Bert Cooper".

Starred opposite Doris Day in "Where Were You When the Lights Went Out?" '68 apparently. Hmmmm

katie8753 said...

Hi Cease2. I'm betting you're right, that probably is the same Robert Morse.

BTW, speaking of Doris Day again, I read in the National Enquirer (yes I know it's all true, LOL) that Doris Day and Paul McCartney had an affair. And the article said that McCartney knew Terry Melcher.

For what that's worth.

Cease2 said...

Well Katie, if ol' Doris was going down fast on Macca's Helter Skelter maybe she was up for some whipcrackaway with Voytek.

This could be the break in the case we've been looking for. LOL

Cease2 said...

Seriously though, you're right Katie, Macca says he did know Melcher...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandpopfeatures/8733533/Doris-Day-and-Paul-McCartney-in-conversation.html

katie8753 said...

>>>Cease2 said: Well Katie, if ol' Doris was going down fast on Macca's Helter Skelter maybe she was up for some whipcrackaway with Voytek.

HA HA HA. Yeah that Doris got around, didn't she?

Wow I knew it!! The National Enquirer nails it again.

Yeah, baby-faced Paul wrote Helter Skelter just so he could get rid of Terry Melcher so he could move in on Doris.

Finally.....the case is solved!! HA HA.

St. Circumstance said...

I wrote an essay on this subject myself recently- the fact that the Beatles did Indeed purposely put subliminal messages in there songs and in the Album artwork...

Charlie taking Acid an hearing things in the Beatles Music isn't as crazy as you might think...

I am hoping to edit the essay and have asked Liz if she would post it as my fist ever official Blog Writing contribution...

hopefully it will make it up someday soon

it is a very interesting topic to me

Cease2 said...

And don't forget Sly Stone, Katie!

Rumoured to have banged got-around-Doris. Claims to have sparred with Manson at Melcher's while under pressure from the Black Panthers to get more militant in his music.

http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/2009/05/sly_stone_interviewed_on_kcrw.php

... Oh and Saint, you're right. John & Paul did add many secret things in their recordings in response to folks reading things into their songs (e.g. singing "tit tit tit" in "Girl" IIRC) ...look forward to reading your essay.

katie8753 said...

Hi St. I've heard for years (since the 60's) that the Beatles had subliminal messages in their music. You could supposedly play Revolution 9 backward and you could hear "messages" (Paul is a dead man)?

Why don't you submit your essay here for a thread idea? :)

katie8753 said...

>>>Cease2 said: And don't forget Sly Stone, Katie!

Rumoured to have banged got-around-Doris. Claims to have sparred with Manson at Melcher's while under pressure from the Black Panthers to get more militant in his music.>>>

HA HA HA. Boom Shaka Laka Laka.

St. Circumstance said...

heres a teaser and some of you may know this- but it interesting for those who dont...

The Abbey Road albumn cover...

A rumor was released that Paul had died in a car accident...

Then this Albumn cover comes out and:

in the background there are cars all lined up against the sidewalk of a cemetery on the left..

one car ( volkswagon on left) is actually on the sidewalk as if crashed- the license plate reads 28if ( paul would have been 28 if he lived)

This from the Sgt Pepper Albumn :

On the Front Cover:

1.) All the people are looking at a freshly dug grave.

2.) Paul is holding the musical instrument cor anglais, and it is black, symbolizing death, and the only Beatle holding a black instrument. Where Paul is holding it with his left hand (being left-handed) he is displaying three fingers, meaning only three Beatles left?

3.) This was the first album on Apple Records and the first album that the group wrote their name as "Beatles," rather than "The Beatles." This is inferred to mean that they are no longer a whole as in "The," but now since there are only three, it is just "Beatles."

4.) The yellow hyacinth in the shape of a left-handed guitar only has three strings.

5.) The doll in the red, black and white stripes has a car model on her lap next to her right hand. This model with red interior is supposed to mean the car in which Paul was killed and the red interior is blood.

6.) The other three Beatles' are standing sideways behind the drum, except Paul who is standing forward.

The beatles are crossing the street, and one is dressed like a preacher, one like a gravedigger in all jeans, one like a mouner in a dark suit, and Paul alone is barefoot the way they bury corpses in England...

the back of the albunn as well is filled with hints along these lines..

St. Circumstance said...

part of the beggining got cut- also on the Abbey road albumn- notice the way they are dressed crossing the street...

one is dressed like a mourner in dark suit

one is dressed like Gravedigger in jeans

one is dressed like preacher

Paul alone is barefoot

St. Circumstance said...

oops the rest of the Abbey road stuff wasnt cut it was at the bottom of the first post...

oh well you get the point

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Cool Stuff Saint!!

You ROCK as Always!!

As I was reading your research... I was heavily struck by the irony, that Paul may outlive them all!!
Seems almost fantastical doesn't it??!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said:
>>>>"Well this confirms what we've said on this blog before.
Bugliosi didn't make Helter Skelter up. He heard it from Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins.
Bugliosi was just as flabbergasted as everyone else that this could even be possible".
<<<<

Excellent Point, Katie.
That information was definitely one of the more interesting tidbits from this book.
---------------------------------------------------------
Katie said:
>>>>"This book supports what I've always thought, that the only person who was really interested in Charlie's music was Dennis Wilson. He's the one who was pushing Manson's music on other people.
The rest of the music world thought he was nuts. And some of them even thought he was dangerous BEFORE the murders. Interesting."
<<<<

Again... another interesting point from this piece.
And yes Katie... you have said that in the past.
---------------------------------------------------------
Katie asked:
>>>>"I wonder which of the girls was the "crazy bitch with the flat tire".<<<<

Good Question.
I was curious about that myself.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

((((((((((Cease2))))))))))

LOLOL

I have to admit...
Every time I look at your screen-name... I think:
"Damn... she should have added "exist"! LOLOL

"Cease2Xist"

I mean... isn't that the coolest?! hahaha

But then again... it's none of my business.
It's just what comes to my mind...

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: As I was reading your research... I was heavily struck by the irony, that Paul may outlive them all!!
Seems almost fantastical doesn't it??!!>>>

I didn't even think of that but it's true. That is ironic!

St. I remember back when they pulled that "Paul is dead" stuff. They milked it for all it was worth. At the time, I was wondering if he really was dead.

On one of their songs, if you play it backward, it's supposed to sound like "Paul is a dead man". I can't remember which one.

mattprokes said...

heres the lennon interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW8UBBVHdis

sbuch113 said...

It's not surprising Terry Melcher knew Paul McCartney.
Begining in 1968 he worked with the Beatles Apple Records as an independent producer searching for new artists to sign to the label.

Manson must have known Melchers connection to Apple Records.
Knowing the connection Charlie and friends must have been super excited at the possibility of Terry signing them to the same label as the Beatles........on the other hand they must have been super pissed when it became obvious Terry had no intention of moving them in that direction.

mattprokes said...

heres some paul is dead stuff i posted a few months back(from wabc 1969)part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gZ4Aw9T4aU
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxtGsGBB5zA

mattprokes said...

heres another tidbit from october 1969.john lennon and derek taylor call in to to deny that paul is dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljjqdmii5UE

the best clue is when you turn turn "number nine,number nine" backwards it becomes 'turn me on dead man'
i had fun freaking out my friends in the 70s with that one.

i think they did a few things as a stoned joke and it got out of hand.

katie8753 said...

>>>Matt said: the best clue is when you turn turn "number nine,number nine" backwards it becomes 'turn me on dead man'
i had fun freaking out my friends in the 70s with that one.>>>

That's what I was trying to remember!! I was thinking it said "Paul is a dead man". Thanks Matt!

katie8753 said...

Hi Sbuch! For some reason I never made the connection from Melcher to McCartney until I saw that article a few weeks ago. It does make sense!

I'm sure that Charlie was SUPER pissed about Melcher not signing him. Mad enough to kill some pigs???? LOL.

sbuch113 said...

Hey Katie...

Another Melcher-McCartney connection......they both served on the board of directors for the Monterey Pop Festival 1967.

Yep ,SUPER pissed as in pissed enough to start killing some "pigs".

katie8753 said...

So McCartney served on the Board for the Pop Festival in 1967??

Wasn't he getting dead about then? HA HA HA. Just kidding!

I don't think I've ever read anywhere that Melcher had any connections with the Beatles. I'm finding out all kinds of goodies today! :)

mattprokes said...

'paul is dead man miss him miss him miss him'is between i'm so tired and blackbird

katie8753 said...

>>>Matt said: paul is dead man miss him miss him miss him'is between i'm so tired and blackbird>>>

Okay that's where it is. Thanks Matt. I'm trying to remember all this stuff from way back in the 60's and my brain is much older now. LOL.

Now...I could be dreaming..but I think I read somewhere that they took that picture for the album cover for Abbey Road on August 8, 1969, eerily the same day the killers drove to Cielo Drive just before midnight.

Does that ring any bells with anyone?

Cease2 said...

Yeah, that's right Katie.

But The Fab Four rarely took a day off. So, you could find a Beatles related date to pretty much anything in the 60s. Still spooky though.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Cease2.

I guess you're right. The Beatles probably did something significant on August 9th & 10th too. I just don't know what that is. HA HA.

sbuch113 said...

I remember another "paul is dead", clue......the White album came with a poster.
The poster is of the four members of the band, the backround behind John, George and Ringo is white, while the backround behind Paul is red.
The red was supposed to mean blood.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sbuch. I remember that poster. LOL.

I think it's interesting that the author wrote about the guy who was living in Lennon's house being afraid of the Manson Family. And with good reason.

Bruce Davis was good at running around England killing folks. Although he didn't have the bravado that Tex had, entering into a stranger's home and chasing them down with a knife.

Bruce was better at killing folks he already knew.

katie8753 said...

I had never read where the jury wanted to visit the crime scenes. According to the article, they were denied that.

Starship, do you know why?

Also, I remember Bugliosi talking about getting John Lennon to testify at the trial, but they were unable to do so.

John had already said previously that he didn't know why Manson read all that into Helter Skelter and the other songs, and that a lot of people pretty much read into their music what they wanted to hear.

Probably why they added the "secret wording" and "Paul is dead" stuff, just to twist people's minds even more. HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Well on the "who is the hottest" poll, Ruth Moorehouse is leading.

Ouisch!!! HA HA.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Ruth is very beautiful.

From a purely physical standpoint... I've always found Susan the most attractive.
But... there's simply no denying Ruth's beauty.
She was a real peach.
I'd probably rate Ruth second...

And of course (as everyone knows)... for the "total package"... I've gotta go with Charlie on this one... Squeaky is my girl. LOL
She had spunk, loyalty... and a soft side.
Three qualities coveted by most males. LOL
Red hair and freckles... she was over-whelmingly cute as a bug... there's no denying.
Completely crackers or not... she's just plain likable...

sbuch113 said...

Susan Atkins, like Manson is a changeling, every picture she looks different.......sometimes homely, other times attractive.

In her attractive photos I'd say she is the best looking woman of the bunch.
In her homely shots I'd say she is a nasty skanky looking STD hound.

katie8753 said...

Well in my opinion, Susan was the prettiest, but also can be the skankiest. Proof is in the pudding. She can throw out STD's like FTD throws out flowers.

Lynne was just butt-ugly.

Ruth was a little girl. Come on, child molesting.

Leslie thought she was still the "high school beauty" but in reality she has horse teeth.

I would say that Brenda was the ugliest of all, except that Gypsy takes that honor.

Brenda needs to avoid those closeups on the courthouse sidewalk wherein you can see all those zits and all that facial hair.

In fact, most of those girls had a lot of facial hair.

Charlie must have liked that "Mediterranean look". HA HA.

Cyrius said...

You should email me. I think I have some of your mail as well. Jeremy? Mail to Manson should stop.

v717 said...

There is a rumour that one of the men who was there during the Crowe shooting was a dealer for Dennis Wilson. When word reached Wilson what had gone down, he and Melcher ran for cover with Melcher pretending for the rest of his days that he'd had minimal intrest in Charlie's musical abilities.

beauders said...

i heard last week that sly stone is broke and living in a van. he should get on the casino circuit at least he could make a living.

Cease2 said...

Sadie is Front Street

Sandy is Wall Street

Horse Teeth is Easy Street

Brunner is Elm Street

Ruth Ann is Sesame Street

and Squeaky is Right Up My Street

...a little poem wot I wrote. D'ya like it?

katie8753 said...

Hi V717. Are you talking about that Bryn guy?

katie8753 said...

Hi Beauders. I'm going to e-mail you regarding a new thread. I have a question for you.

katie8753 said...

Cease2, LOVE your little poem. You're too funny!!! HA HA HA.

St. Circumstance said...

Very clever Cease :)

starship said...

Hi, Katie,

I believe the jury did indeed visit the crime scenes of tate and LaBianca, however during the day early on in the trial. Later they requested a night-time visit and that is what the judge denied. Too much overtime probably.

Yes, paul is dead was a cool thing....listen to the very end of Strawberry Fields during the final fade out....can't you hear John saying, "I buried Paul". Years later he claimed what he really said was "Cranberry Sauce"...

And on the Sgt Pepper cover: Hold up a small compact make up mirror perpendicualr to center of the word HEARTS on the bass drum The inage formed will say HE DIE...reflecting the H and E to spell HE, the A becomes an arrow pointing directly to Paul, and RTS reflect as DIE

Can't make it up, I swear.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starship. I wonder why they wanted a night time crime scene visit. Was it because the murders happened when it was dark outside? Sounds kinda spooky to me.

I'll have to listen to Strawberry Fields again. I didn't know that. Or the thing about the Sargent Pepper cover. I'll check that out.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

LOVE the poem Cease2!!!

katie8753 said...

"Reached for comment by the press, Apple spokesman Derek Taylor was pithy as always. Requesting Lennon's presence at the trial, he said, was "like summoning Shakespeare to explain Macbeth."

I would hardly compare John Lennon to Shakespeare. They're both English, but that's as far as it gets.

John Lennon later wrote "No Flies on Frank" with Yoko Ono.

'Nuff said.

sbuch113 said...

Hi Katie......
Talk about it being dark and spooky at Cielo.

The only time I went up there was back in 1980.
It was sometime after midnight when we turned onto Cielo, we passed the turn that leads up to the gate, so it took a minute before we found it.
Being the midnight hour of course it was dark.......spooky too.
I think the spooky part was do to how quiet it was.
I'll never understand how nobody reported the gunshots that killed Steven Parent, nevermind the screams that followed.
So quiet......spooky quiet.

katie8753 said...

Some say that Neil Young was interested in Charlie's music, but I just don't see it.

Charlie's music sucked, and I can't believe anyone on this planet would think it didn't.

I think that Wilson was on board because he was getting chicks and drugs, and he was really pushing for Charlie to get a recording contract so that would continue.

But nether Melcher nor anyone else thought the same. I guess they were all getting "regular sex" at the time. HA HA.

Miss Spiritual Tramp 1979 said...

Neil Young was totally into Manson and his music, there is really no way around it as Young readily admits it to this day.

I think he was particularily taken with Manson's spontaneous lyrical ability, comparing him to the likes of Bob Dylan in terms of vision and raw talent.

I agree with Neil on that...there is something special and rare in Manson's lyrical style which just cannot be copied or defined.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

This subject comes-up every so often on these blogs.

I've made the same commentary so many times, I've lost count.
But, since it applies once again, here goes:

(My sincere apologies, to those who have read this 12 times. LOL)

Here goes:

In his youth, Manson had a better-than-average voice.
He wasn't Luciano Pavoratti... but, he was pretty good.

As a guitarist... he was (again), better than the average street performer.
Pretty good...

These skills/assessments do not land most folks a recording career.
He could have supported himself playing "live" at local venues... solo, or with others.
He was talented enough for that...

Where he shined... was song-writing ideas.
Many folks have made a great living writing songs for others.
That craft (and it is a craft), was Manson's best chance at commercial success.

Musicians often "run dry" of song ideas, after a few albums.
They often hire guys like Manson, to "get their juices flowing", sorta speak.

Manson was a dynamic, unique character... who could rattle-off words and tales of sex, love, passions, anger, revolution, prison, lonliness, drugs, government, deceit, betrayal... hell... you name it.
These are the subjects great songs revolve around.

Manson could have made a living in that area talent-wise.
The problem is... how long would most folks be able to work with Manson... and how dedicated would Manson have been to that endeavor?

Anotehr problem...
If you can write music... I mean on paper (in "standard notation"), you've got a real "leg up".
I'm not positive... but, I don't think Manson could.
Which means, he'd essentially need a middle-man to write his ideas down, in a manner other musicians could perform to.
This middle-man had better be honest...

That's my take on Manson musically.

As a "live performer"... definitely in some capacity.
"Recording artist"... a bit of a strecth.
"Songwriting consultant"... there's a LOT of fertile ground there.

Whether anyone could "bottle" that "fertile ground", in a way to make Manson some money, (given the obstacles of his personality)... is another question.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

For anyone interested...

Here's a link to the Neil Young/Charles Manson thread, I ran on this blog, in the past.

http://www.lsb3.com/2011/03/neil-young-and-charles-manson.html?showComment=1317955765798

Miss Spiritual Tramp 1979 said...

I just don't get the Susan Atkins thing because to me she is just a scrawny vile looking woman with a mustache devoid of any grace or beauty.

I am thinking that perhaps her 'other' talents make her more appealing to the men..and its true in this cruel cold world we live in girls like her have to find other ways to attract men so at least she had that part sorted out.

My personal choice for Manson Girl 1969 would be without a doubt Sandra Good who I think was clearly the true beauty of the lot and certainly won the genetic lottery..in the looks dept at least..

v717 said...

Katie 8753
No, I don´t think it was that Bryn guy

v717 said...

A meeting with Susan Atkins.
Years ago I found a rather odd story in a comment field about Susan Atkins. It´s a guy who tells a story about how he met miss Atkins on Sunset Blvd just a few weks after the murders. If this guys story is correct in all details then there must be something wrong with the official story. He depict how he gave Susan a ride up to Spahn Ranch in his car and there he met all the others in the family and he even met Manson himself. And what are Charlie talking about? Well, it isn´t Helter Skelter but how they were going to smuggle dope across the border from Mexico.
When the news came out of the arrest of the Manson bunch he was summond to the police station and there he was interviewed by a detective. The detective mainly wanted to know what kind of music they were playing on the stereo. The arrest of the Manson gang was in October 69 and it wasn´t before Februari 70 according to Vincent Bug that he became aware of Manson´s HS thing. Here there seems to be a difference in several months between the official story and what this guy relates. Why would a detective wan´t to know what kind of music they were playing in that early state of the investigation? That seems rather odd.
A wild guess: Could it be that the police had an informant inside the Manson family or was it one of the ranch hands who was moonlighting as a police informer.

v717 said...

I was about 21 or 22 working at Orbach's in Beverly Hills in the print shop making signs for the store when that all happened. It was a few months before I got into the special effects lighting business. I was eating dinner by myself at Alphie's on Sunset Blvd. one weeknight in September not even a month after those murders. Susan Atkins was walking the Strip, probably panhandling, and out of the crowd she just plopped herself down at my table. Alphie’s was a sidewalk café and my table was right by the street entrance. I was through with dinner and drinking a cup of coffee while watching all the freaks parade past. She introduced herself as Sadie Glutz and started telling me this crazy story about the "Family" she was a part of. I figured she was a very spaced out druggie, and tried to get her to buzz off. I remember thinking she had the most unusual fingers I had ever seen. They were long and skinny, and her fingertips almost came to a point. Anyway, she just kept on and asked me over and over again to give her a ride home. I tried to ignore her, and went in to pay and leave. She followed me, and kept saying that it was only a block away. HA! When I went out back to get in my car, she followed me out there too. She would not take no for an answer. I was driving a classic '62 Mark II Jag, (I still have it) and she just HAD to have a ride in it. I figured WTF, I'll take her a block and be rid of her. Well, then she kept saying that it was just around the next corner. She had me turn left, and the next thing I knew I was on the freeway heading north. Then she said it was the next exit. That kept on until we got to Chatsworth. Then up a mountain that looked like a scene from a Hopalong Cassidy movie to the old movie ranch where they were all hiding out. We got stopped by a couple of cops in the road on the way up there. They had their guns out and said they were after a guy that they thought they may have winged. They searched my trunk, and then let us go on. They told us not to stop for anyone on foot up ahead. To this day I never have figured out what that was all about. I pulled into the rundown ranch, and parked at the hitching post. I knew right away that I could be in real trouble when this really scurvy looking ragtag bunch came out of one of the storefronts and started eyeing me and my car. The Jag, my handmade Italian shoes, and handmade leather coat had them licking their chops. Something told me I would have to play my cards right if I was going to get out of there alive. It never occurred to me then that they could have had anything to do with the recent grisly murders, but they sure looked like they might have something to do with mine.

v717 said...

Anyway, I met all the freaks that were at that ranch, including the old blind man, the little witch who lived outback in a chicken coop, the old cowgirl, and Charlie himself along with all his minions. Charlie told me all about their place in the desert, and asked me to join the group. I was flattered. He said they were going to smuggle dope across the border from Mexico on gliders and get rich. I told him that sounded like a great idea. They needed someone with a legitimate job to get a baby out of protective services the next day when the mother was getting out of jail. Well, of course I told them I would be glad to let them stay with me. So, they let me leave with all my stuff after giving me their phone number. Atkins gave me the number and said it was the number for "Spahn's Family", as she referred to them. I told her I would call her first thing the next day. She told me I was her Sir Lancelot. She said we could all go up in the canyon and have an orgy after we got the baby back. I gave her a phony number and told them I worked at May Co. Then after deftly avoiding a kiss on the cheek, I got the hell out of there. The next morning at work, I told a couple of the guys all about the weirdos I met the night before. I told them the whole story, and we all got a big laugh out of it. I don't remember exact dates, but it was only a couple of weeks or so until one of the guys walked in one morning with the LA Times. He flopped it down in front of me and said they had caught my buddies up in the canyon for killing Sharon Tate. I looked down at the front page and there they all were. I was stunned. That was when I realized that it really was a good thing I had gotten my ass out of there. Well, a couple of hours later after the story had spread all over the store, the head of security came into my office and told me I needed to go downtown to the police station and talk to someone in the homicide division. He said he heard about my encounter with the Manson bunch, and that the cops wanted to talk to anyone who had any contact with them. I left work and went downtown to be interviewed by a detective. He asked me a lot of questions that I couldn't answer, but he mainly wanted to know what kind of music was playing on the stereo when I was there. I told him they were playing Beatles music, which they were. I also told him about the two officers that stopped us on the way up there. He didn’t comment on that, but he gave me his card and told me to call him if I thought of anything else. Well, I didn't care to think of anything else, but I kept his card. I still have it. I still have the old Jag too, and thanks to my quick thinking, I still have my life. I saw recently where they were looking for more bodies of people killed by those creeps in the desert, and up in Devil’s Canyon where Sadie Glutz suggested we go.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Spiritual Tramp!!!


I LOVE the movie(s) "Drugstore Cowboy", and "Requiem For A Dream"!

I love your wallpapper over on 'Tube.
That's William S Burroughs from "Drugstore Cowboy" isn't it?!! LOL
NICE!!!
He plays the "cool junkie Priest"! LOL

A movie you would absolutely LOVE is "Spun" starring Mickey Rourke.
That's the whole title... "SPUN".
It's a hard find... but DEFINITELY worth the search!!!

katie8753 said...

Miss Spiritual Tramp; You're kidding me right? You're joking.

HA HA HA.

This crap "What is your game girl?"

That's worth a James Taylor or Neil young song?

HAHAHAHAAA

"Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep"

Maybe Neil Young can explain why he didn't explore ANY of Charlie's stupid songs.

Explain, please.

katie8753 said...

Ahh V717,. I can't read all that crap. sorry.

And I can't read all the other crap.

Charlie's songs sucked.

That's the end of it.

He wasn't a song writer or a singer.

He sucked!!!!

He licked desert dicks.

Am I'm clear???

This stupid motherfucker didn't have any talent.

I can't be any more clear than this.

Marliese said...

Miss Spiritual Tramp, i agree with you. I've never understood Susan's appeal...1969 Sadie looks like pure skank to me. Bad teeth, bad skin, a moustache! she just looks like a dirty mess.

I agree with you about Sandra being classically good looking, the most beautiful of the girls too...too bad she was wound so tight, and insanely scary.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Spiritual Tramp...

Sandra Good is very beautiful in a traditional sense... but, I just can't get past the maniacal stare!!
She never blinks her eyes.
She's like a deer in headlights!
I could NEVER fall asleep in the same room with that woman.
There's CRAZY... and then, there's BONKERS!
She's BONKERS!

But yeah... she's definitely very beautiful... if you can get by the rest of the package... which I can't.

She DEFINITELY gets the "BEST HYGIENE" AWARD!
I'll agree with you 300% on that point.

You'd never know she lived a day at the ranch!

Her hair is always bouncy and shiny.
She wears beautiful sun dresses.
Southern hats... like Marliese! : )
I heard she's the only one who refused to go barefoot... and insisted she would only have her baby at a hospital.
Can anyone confirm those two?
She definitely was the cleanest of the bunch, no doubt.

The pretty girls, to my eye:

Susan
Ruth
Snake
Lynn
Nancy
Kitty

The rest... just weren't my cup-o-tea.
That's not to say they weren't good-looking.

Gypsy had a nice figure, and smile.
She had some nice womanly curves.
She wasn't too bad.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I've never understood why the "mini moustache" is such an obstacle for some folks.
AHahahaha

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie...

It would be a lot easier, if you were less guarded, and more upfront with your feelings.
I feel you're restraining your true thoughts.
It's not healthy. : )

Marliese said...

Think i read somewhere that even Charlie, and he wasn't exactly picky, found Sadie gross, something about he wouldn't go near her..found her lopsided breasts unattractive.

What was with those girls and their hair problem? susan had a full on moustache and then there's Pat. I must say, if i had a daughter covered in hair like a little monkey, i'd get her to an endocrinologist, pronto. WTH.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Has anyone else noticed that Lynn has kinda disappeared lately?

I think this is a subject, she'd really enjoy.

Lynn... where are you girl?!

and Bob... and Mary...

Miss you folks!!!

Marliese said...

Susan says in her child of satan book that her teeth were rotten, ugly, and stinking. and she had serious disease going on requiring gyn surgery by the time she got to a prison doctor.

But I bet she'd do anything...absolutely anything.

katie8753 said...

I'll tell you one thing, these hairy goobahs aren't telling me anything.

Charlie liked them. He liked those hairy motherfuckers. Those hairy-lipped assholes and those hairy lipped chins. All those followers were hairy-lipped. And they NEVER told the truth

So be it.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I've heard the "lopsided breasts" story before... not sure it's origin.

I've always found Susan the most attractive from day one... from the first time I'd seen these girls... and my opinion has never changed.

Beauty and attracton are so very subjective... so who knows...

I don't even like her personality all that much.
She's annoying as all hell.
Personality-wise... she's pobably my least favorite.

But... she is smokin' hot! LOL
I can't tell anyone why I think so... I just do.

Life's little mysteries. LOLOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Cease2...

I'm just curious what "street" you would have for Pat?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Hairy-lipped"... LOLOL

Is it just me, or did Ruth have a tiny bit of moustache action going-on like Susan?

She had really thick eye-brows...

She was very pretty as well.

I guess I just like'em hairy. LOL

'Course, when you get into "Cousin It" territory like Pat... I've gotta draw a line. : )

Miss Spiritual Tramp 1979 said...

Hi Lynyrd...yessss Drugstore Cowboy is one of my favs for sure..William S Burroughs is sort of a hobby of mine & one of my biggest influences which is odd for some people to comprehend. I have gotten alot of flack about my Burroughs affections over the years from intellectuals/academics feminists etc etc..some people just will never get it.
Spun was really good too!!!

Marliese said...

I admit that Susan could look good once in awhile...during that naked devil stuff she was doing in San Francisco for example, her body was stunning...before she descended so far into neglect and disease, but her face had a good look and an ugly look, and her hair always looks so stringy and unhealthy in the old photos, unlike Sandra's, and Squeaky had good hair too. Hair is a good indicator of well being, and Susan's just looked like ongoing poor nutrition, poor health etc ...and probably the drugs...
IMO.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

OK... not to be completely disgusting in mixed company... but, c'mon folks...

It just crossed my mind:
I wonder what the hell was going-on "downstairs" with Pat??

I mean seriously... Gawt Damn... it must have been ridiculous!
Can you inagine???

She didn't need birth control.
You'd need a weed-whacker just to get past that jungle!
UGGH!

For those who collect photos... let's see one of that "seventh wonder of the world"! LOL

Miss Spiritual Tramp 1979 said...

Marliese said:


I agree with you about Sandra being classically good looking, the most beautiful of the girls too...too bad she was wound so tight, and insanely scary.

>>Hi Marliese...at least I am not alone on the Sadie thing...its just so bizzare to me that anyone could find that attractive...and I have observed that its not just like 1 or 2 people who find her attractive but quite a few..

And yes the poor little beautiful Sandra so lovely and disturbed..actually very reminiscent of Catherine Deneuve's character in 'Repulsion'...now thats another fab movie...sorry Polanski haters but its an amazing movie.

Miss Spiritual Tramp 1979 said...

Lynyrd said:

Beauty and attracton are so very subjective... so who knows...


>>>this is so true...I mean I find Hank the (former)lead singer of the band Turbonegro attractive so really I'm in no position to comment on who others find attractive...hahaa..have you seen that guy?? reality check..thanks

Miss Spiritual Tramp 1979 said...

Lynyrd said:

She didn't need birth control.
You'd need a weed-whacker just to get past that jungle!
UGGH!

>>>that my friend is so far beyond gross...but its true its like Marliese mentioned Charlie seemed to dig hairy girls..maybe thats his thing.

Miss Spiritual Tramp 1979 said...

Wow...thats actually an excellent idea Neil Young covering Charlie...now what song shall it be??

Miss Spiritual Tramp 1979 said...

Katie..I guess we can agree to disagree on the music of Manson.

I am not going to lie I think alot of his songs are great and have you ever heard the Lemonheads version of 'Home Is Where You're Happy' its so good...

People like Dylan and Manson were sort of the first wave of punk rock..it was like they may not have had the best voices but they had something to say and so they said it and its that DIY ethic that I respond to.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

To SBuch113:

For some reason, one of your comments (from several hours ago) was lost in the "spam" folder, for no apparent reason.

I just found it... retrieved it... and allowed it to post.
It's pretty far back in the comments section at this point (because) comments post according to the time they were submitted)... so, I'm reposting it down here as well... so, folks will see it.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
It's just one of those occasional "blog glitches".
My apologies.

Everyone... here's SBuch's Comment:


Hi Katie......
Talk about it being dark and spooky at Cielo.

The only time I went up there was back in 1980.
It was sometime after midnight when we turned onto Cielo, we passed the turn that leads up to the gate, so it took a minute before we found it.
Being the midnight hour of course it was dark.......spooky too.
I think the spooky part was do to how quiet it was.
I'll never understand how nobody reported the gunshots that killed Steven Parent, nevermind the screams that followed.
So quiet......spooky quiet.

If anyone has trouble seeing their comments post, at any point, for any reason... please let me know.

mattprokes said...

i like that lemonheads manson cover,best song on that album.

i think sick citys a pretty good tune as well.
there was a few years after manson got out of jail his music was'nt half bad(lie and the 9-67 sessions) but the stuff hes recorded in prison doesnt move me for the most part.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I like:

Close to me
Look at Your Game Girl
Sick City
Home is Where You're Happy
Always is Always Forever
(Never Say Never to Always)
*Ra-Hide Away
*Get on Home

(*I'm not sure if these two are technically Manson's, 'cuz they were recorded on the "Family Jams" album... but, I always assumed he wrote them)

Actually... I like the entire "Family Jams" album, minus a couple throw-aways...

I think "Close to me" is hands-down Manson's best solo performance... (from the commercial Manson music I've heard).
But again... there's a LOT of Manson's music I haven't heard.
When you get into the bootleg stuff, it's pretty much endless.

I agree with MattP, that Manson's best (and in my opinion, only noteworthy work), was definitely from the late 60's.
That stuff was very good.
Since then... I haven't heard anything that's grabbed me.

Cease2 said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...
Cease2...
I'm just curious what "street" you would have for Pat?


She's down at the end of Lonely Street, L/S.

Eternally wandering around with a shaved head, flapping those huge ears like a murderous female Dumbo. Poor Pat.

katie8753 said...

>>>Sbuch said: I think the spooky part was do to how quiet it was.
I'll never understand how nobody reported the gunshots that killed Steven Parent, nevermind the screams that followed.
So quiet......spooky quiet.>>>

Thanks Sbuch. I've never understood how no one heard the screams or gunshots either. The excuse is always that the sound echoes in the canyon, but I just don't understand how no one heard those screams. Someone screaming for their life is something you don't mistake.

katie8753 said...

Marliese, I agree. If my daughter was that hairy I would have gotten some medical treatment for her.

Lots of the Manson girls were hairy. Look at Gypsy. She looks hairier than Pat to me. She's got a good mustache and beard going on.

>>>Lynyrd said: It just crossed my mind:
I wonder what the hell was going-on "downstairs" with Pat??>>>

Hey, I think some guys like a "big bush". Remember J. T. Walsh on Sling Blade?

katie8753 said...

Missy, I guess this is one of those time we just won't agree.

I can't stand Manson's music.

But, to be open minded about this (which I'm not, ha ha) if Bob Dylan had written the same lyrics, would I like them? Can't say.

Maybe I just don't like Manson's music because I just don't like Manson. Hmmmm......

katie8753 said...

>>>Cease2 said: She's down at the end of Lonely Street, L/S.

Eternally wandering around with a shaved head, flapping those huge ears like a murderous female Dumbo. Poor Pat.>>>

HA HA HA HA!!! "a murderous female Dumbo". You crack me up!

St. Circumstance said...

I think that all of them must have been fairly nasty towards the end...

the lives they led were not conducive to hygiene and proper femininity...

I cant help but think of Sandy any other way than bald an menacing in the first scene of the Hendrickson documentary..

and she looked SCARY


To clear one thing up...

there were reports- several- from people reporting the various noises up on Cielo....

Parent is a huge mystery to me. I dont buy that he didn't hear anything... more likely he did and hid until he felt it was safe to come out....

starship said...

>>>Sbuch said: I think the spooky part was do to how quiet it was.
I'll never understand how nobody reported the gunshots that killed Steven Parent, nevermind the screams that followed.
So quiet......spooky quiet.>>>

Thanks Sbuch. I've never understood how no one heard the screams or gunshots either. The excuse is always that the sound echoes in the canyon, but I just don't understand how no one heard those screams. Someone screaming for their life is something you don't mistake.

I believe the gunshots and screams were obscured by the sound of ice rattling in the cocktail shakers in the homes way down the canyon...

starship said...

Not Parent...Garrettson...I don't buy it either.

Also, Mrs. Kott, the next door neighbor...she actually heard the shots, but hearing nothing more after a minute, she and her husband go to bed.

I've posted this before, but I live in an area where it's rare, but not odd to hear gunshots occassionally and sometimes at late hours. Whenever I hear them I listen carefully for other sounds for quite a while until I am satisfied that no one is in any danger.

And Sandy Good? Shudder...

katie8753 said...

Hi guys. I don't buy it either that Garrettson didn't hear anything. He claims he thought that Parent was shooting off firecrackers. How dumb is that? Parent was leaving to try to pawn off that clock/radio on some other sap. Why would he stop to light firecrackers?

Okay, I guess I can kind of understand why, if someone heard 4 shots and nothing else for a while, they might just think it was a backfire or something, but the screams??? You can't mistake screams. Especially Garrettson. No way he didn't hear all that. He just hunkered down in the dark and hoped they didn't find him.

I read somewhere (can't remember where, Starship, St....help me out here) that in the Cielo Drive house, they were playing loud music, and that might explain why THEY didn't hear the shots. But then again, that doesn't make any sense, because the music wasn't playing when the cops got there. At least I don't think it was.

St. Circumstance said...

I think I read in H/S that

Garretson said he was playing music Mama Cass and Doors records I believe

never read they had music on inside- weren't they either in bedrooms, or in voyetks case sleeping on couch?

katie8753 said...

St. I did read that Garrettson said he was playing music (Mamas & Papas???) with headphones or something, but I also read somewhere that in the house, the volume knob on the stereo was on high. So if that's the case, then someone had to shut it off or unplug it before the killers left.

Now this is going to drive me crazy. I'm going to have to find where I read that. HA HA.

I can understand why Voytek didn't hear anything. He was crashed out on an MDA buzz. But the others were awake. Abigail was in that room with the windows right on the front yard. I can't imagine how she didn't hear that unless something drowned it out.

St. Circumstance said...

Voytek sleeping- Gibby in bed reading- Sharon /Jay talking in bedroom...

loud music wouldn't fit???

but it would explain a few things...

that might be an interesting fact I never knew...

katie8753 said...

Let me do some checking. I'm thinking I saw it on a Cielo Drive police report but I've read so much on this subject it's hard to remember. I'll let you know.

starship said...

There possibly could have been music playing, but I don't think any of the accounts support it being so.

The sheet music on the piano was supposedly "Yuung Girls are Coming to the Canyon" by the Mamas and the Papas...a fact, if it indeed is one, which led to stories that that record was playing on the stereo and that it played over and over again, as some LP players were wont to do back in the day and that it was still going when the police arrived. But Mrs. Chapman doesn't mention it and I'm pretty sure the police statements are all about that it was very quiet when they arrived on scene.

Garrettson, I'm sure, was freaked.

katie8753 said...

Well Starship I've tried finding where I read that, but no luck so far. I know I read it somewhere, course that doesn't make it true. LOL.

But it would explain why no one heard the shots that night.

sbuch113 said...

Lynyrd.....I wondered what happened to that post. Thanks for digging it up.

When we were standing there at the Cielo gate, we felt the need to whisper......it was that quiet.
The crack of gunshots must have been audible for some distance.
The only thing I can think of is maybe Tex reached the gun into the car before firing......blunting the sound.

The screams must have been horrific.
Very scarey.

sbuch113 said...

Lynyrd.......I don't know.
Looks like my posts are still not making it to the thread.

I made a post this afternoon that didn't make it.
I dunno........

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello SBuch...

Your comment was in the "spam folder" again!
I just posted it.

I'm very sorry my friend, I'm not sure why it's doing that.

I'll have to start checking the spam folder frquently, until we can figure this out.

Since the bog opened, I'd say 5-6 comments have gone to the spam folder... so, it's very rare.
I remember a couple of "Starships" did that way back... and I caught it.

Any computer techs know about this stuff???

I'll do some reading on Google, when I have the chance...

Very sorry my friend.

I HATE when this kinda stuff happens to visitors.
SBuch... your posts are very much welcome, and anticiapted.

It's all technical difficulties... believe me.

Peace... Lynyrd

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Friends... this is SBuch's second missing post:
---------------------------------------------

>>>>"Lynyrd.....I wondered what happened to that post. Thanks for digging it up.

When we were standing there at the Cielo gate, we felt the need to whisper......it was that quiet.
The crack of gunshots must have been audible for some distance.
The only thing I can think of is maybe Tex reached the gun into the car before firing......blunting the sound.

The screams must have been horrific.
Very scarey".<<<<

katie8753 said...

Hi Sbuch! Hang in there, this must be some kinda glitch. Lynyrd will figure it out.

I hear a lot that Cielo Drive was very quiet. I don't think that Tex put the gun in the car, the wounds didn't reflect that close of range. And that was a big gun. It must have had a loud report. I don't think Parent's car was that far from the house. What was it from the gate to the house....100 yards or so???

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Sorry, typo... that's "anticipated", not "anticiapted". LOL

bobby said...

i dont think we should take the years of charlies jibberish nonsensicle interviews as hime not knowing anything about the murders. let along his level of participation. It seems he made several admission to his participation in the Emmons book> Are those to be dicounted be charlie later dimissed them ?

bobby said...

i dont think we should take the years of charlies jibberish nonsensicle interviews as him not knowing anything about the murders. let along his level of participation. It seems he made several admissions to his participation in the Emmons book. Are those to be discounted because charlie later dimissed them ?

a little better spelling

bobby said...

discounted because charlie later dismissed them ?

having trouble with words tonight sorry

katie8753 said...

Hi Bobby!

I agree with you totally! Charlie's gobbledy-gook is just a smoke screen. He likes to do a lot of double talk and skirt around the issue.

If you've noticed, he almost never answers a question directly. He answers a question with a question.

He knows a whole hellava lot more than he's saying. Even after all these years.

But think about it. If he confessed to what he knew, then all the attention would stop. People would say "oh...okay...that's what happened" and stop trying to communicate with him.

katie8753 said...

Several people made a comment about Sandy being scary.

She was/still is creepy scary. I'll bet she was scary before she met Charlie. I'll bet Joel Pugh was halfway scared of her.

I have a feeling that the others at the Ranch thought of her as the "camp snitch". I'll bet she ran tattling to Charlie every time someone made an infraction to Charlie's rules.

katie8753 said...

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that she is the one who put the bug in Charlie's ear about Shorty "snitching" to the cops.

And about Gary inheriting money.

katie8753 said...

Sbuch I have a feeling that you are trying to comment. I noticed this today. On the thread it says 116 comments, but on the comment page, it's only 114.

I know that's irritating. Is anyone else having this problem??

Sbuch, until we figure out what the problem is, if you're interested, you can e-mail your comments to me at my You Tube account, katie8753, and I'll post your comments for you.

sbuch113 said...

Hi Katie.....I think my posts are getting threw ok now. Thanks

Hi Starship.....I've always heard that the sheet music on the piano at the Tate estate was the John Phillips song "Straight Shooter".

katie8753 said...

Hi Sbuch. I'm glad you're getting thru okay.

Someone is having trouble though I think. The amount of comments aren't matching up. It's 2 behind. 118 on the thread and 116 on the comment page.

Oh well, if anyone needs my help, please e-mail me. I'll be up for about another hour, until 10:00pm CST. :)

katie8753 said...

Okay I'm watching Hostel on IFC. The "scary movies of Halloween". My time of year!

"You are so seerrrious, Mr. Amerrr-i-cannn."

HA HA.

beauders said...

the killers said music was playing at the tate house. maybe when the record ended it turned it returned the needle to it's little stand or possibly manson, etc. turned it off. when the police arrived the next morning the music was definately off because they could hear the flies buzzing around the bodies. william garettson did say he was playing at a medium leve. the police did a test and said he couldn't hear the shooting and screams with the music at that level. last i heard about garettson he was in pretty bad shape lost both legs in a motorcycle accident and not well mentally. i don't he can say much of anything now about that time.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders. I knew I read that somewhere.

That's too bad about Garretson. I would imagine that after what happened, he was probably not the same mentally ever again.

mattprokes said...

he did an interview with bill nelson for one of his horrible books and he was interviewed for the sharon tate true hollywood story which i'm sure is on yt somewhere in the late 90s.
in the nelson book he told a story about getting picked up by hippies in a van on the day of the murders and getting a ride to cielo drive, they knew right where he lived and that he had seen the van before,inferring that they had something to do with the murders.
maybe someone else who read the book can recall it better than me and having had some dealings with bill nelson i don't think it would be above him to make something up.
but garretson at the time was married to a girl who believed she was the daughter of sharon tate(yes the baby sharon was carrying at the time of the murders) so you have to wonder how well his mind was put together.
both interviews were in the late 90s i think.

katie8753 said...

Here is a clip from You Tube that at about 4:00 there is a tiny bit of the interview with Garretson where he's talking about some guy that picked him up hitchhiking that told him he shouldn't go back up there.

I don't know how much of what Garretson says that I believe. He admitted later that he did hear Abigail say "stop I'm already dead" or something like that. He never admitted that during his police questioning in 1969.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDpQuELjNxA&NR=1

katie8753 said...

I have a couple of questions for anyone out there who knows the answers.

Was Steve Parent driving a stick or automatic transmission car?

I know the gate at Cielo Drive opened when you pushed the button, but did you have to push it again to close it, or did it just close on a timer or infrared?

sbuch113 said...

The car Steven Parent drove was his dad's 1966 AMC Rambler. The 1966 model was the first year the car was available with 4 on the floor standard (stick) transmission.
After killing Parent, Watson put the car into nuetral and pushed it back up the driveway, then put the transmission into 2nd forward before proceeding to the house.

Being that the car was a stick shift might explain why Steven hit the split rail fence backing out........maybe he wasn't proficient driving one.

Or the unthinkable......just for conversation.
What if the killers are lying about the order in which the murders took place.
Has anyone thought maybe Garrettson and Parent witnessed the murders.
Parent then running to his car to escape, in his haste backed into the fence and was killed before he made it down the drive.
Not saying any of this happened, but what if?
It would open a Pandora's Box of questions.

Kimchi said...

Nope, the car Parent was driving was an automatic...

There are pictures of where his feet were during the crime scene...only two pedals, the brake and accelerator..

Kimchi said...

I know I will be challenged on this, so here is the picture:

http://truthontatelabianca.com/topic/2299-autopsy-of-steven-parent-aka-john-doe-85/page__st__160

Page 9...there is a lengthy discussion on it, but see for yourself.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sbuch.

I got to thinking that if Parent was driving a stick, when he was on his way to the gate from the guest house, he was probably in 1st or 2nd gear. Then when Watson popped up out of nowhere, that he might have gotten scared and let his foot off the clutch, which would have made the car die. Either way, when he was shot and killed, he would have let up on the clutch and the car would have died.

No one mentions that Tex restarted the car. They say he pushed it.

If the car was in 2nd gear when it died, Tex would have had to depress the clutch to get it into neutral in order to push the car. I'm just trying to picture this. He would have had to move Parent's legs in order to depress the clutch. No one mentions any of that.

I like your "what if" situation, and it could have happened that way, only I don't think it did and here's why.

If Tex had started killing the Cielo Drive residents, by the time they started running out on the lawn, Parent and Garretson would have heard it. If Parent tried to escape while Tex was chasing down and killing Voytek and Abigail, I don't think he could have caught Parent.

Plus...wouldn't Garretson get in the car with him? Plus...didn't the gun jam when Tex was trying to shoot Frykowski, after he had shot Jay? The gun wouldn't work on Parent then.

I like playing "what if, maybe". It leads to maybe opening a new door to this case!

katie8753 said...

Hi Kimchi. Well I wrote all that for nothing if it's an automatic transmission. HA HA.

Okay I just found this from the first Cielo Drive Homocide Report, regarding Parent's car:

"An examination of the vehicle revealed that the lights were off; the hood was cool and engine off. The ignition switch was in the vertical, or off, position and the automatic gearshift lever indicated the car was in second gear."

Okay, as far as I know, whether the car is automatic or manual transmission, it has to be in neutral to push it. So did Tex put it back in 2nd gear??

Kimchi said...

What if, what if, what if the guy down the street from La Bianca that was booking, that all of sudden moved away and nobody could locate, was questioned by the investigators?

They couldn't find that guy after he left...what if?

katie8753 said...

The police report also says the parking brake wasn't on. If the car was automatic transmission, Tex could have shifted it into neutral and pushed it, then shifted it into 2nd gear so it wouldn't roll.

But...could Tex have pushed that car by himself? That car was made of solid steel, not like the fiberglass cars they spit out now. The only way he could have pushed it by himself was to push it downhill.

katie8753 said...

Well Kimchi, in order to consider the guy down the street that was booking, you'd have to consider the fact that the LaBiancas were killed because of his gambling.

I don't think that's the motive. Like we've said before, dead people don't pay you back. Why hire some goofy hippies to eviscerate somebody because they owe you money. And why kill Rosemary? She didn't owe them money.

If the syndicate really wanted Leno dead, they could have cut his brake lines, or just picked him off at the fruit stand. Didn't you see The Godfather?? HA HA

Kimchi said...

Well, in all things related in this case you have to look outside the box..

You have to be be non-judgemental as to what really went down...

I DO NOT believe it was Helter-Skelter..it was wrong in what happened yes, and certaninly not condoned..but there are hidden facts as to why it happend. But this is only my opinion and I am nobody...

sbuch113 said...

Hi Kimchi......
I saw the same pictures.
The reason I said the car had a standard transmission is because that's the way it reads in Sanders The Family.
I don't have the updated copy.......mines from the 70's.
It says Tex put the car into neutral, pushed it back up the drive then put it into 2nd forward.
But like you said......no one ever mentions restarting the car and from the pictures taken at the scene it appears to have only two pedals.

katie8753 said...

Kimchi, I agree with you. Helter Skelter is definitely NOT the motive. That was just some bullshit that Charlie used as a "carrot before a donkey" to get them motivated. He didn't believe that there was going to be a race war any more than he believed in the tooth fairy.

So that eliminates one motive. And we know that there is a motive. The drugged-out hippies didn't know the motive, but Charlie did.

We just don't know what the motive was, because Charlie's not talking.

katie8753 said...

>>>Sbuch said: It says Tex put the car into neutral, pushed it back up the drive then put it into 2nd forward.>>>

I just don't think one person could push something that heavy "up" the drive. The only way he could have done that is if the car was still running when Parent was killed and he slipped it in neutral and pushed it up. Then turned the car off.

Pushing a dead car is like handling a dead body. It's a LOT heavier.

Why put it in 2nd? Why not put it in park?

Kimchi said...

Charlie didn't "throw that carrot out", Paul Watkins did...

I'm going to throw something out...

Why did Harold True name his son born in 1971 "Saladin"...

What is up with that name?

katie8753 said...

How did we go from automatic transmissions to Harold True? HA HA.

>>>Kimchi said: Charlie didn't "throw that carrot out", Paul Watkins did...>>>

No Paul Watkins didn't do that. Period.

Charles Manson preached Helter Skelter all the time. More people than Paul said he did. We all know that.

Paul just happened to be one of those who told the police that Charlie was preaching it.

>>>I'm going to throw something out...Why did Harold True name his son born in 1971 "Saladin"...What is up with that name?>>>

Well that's a good question. Are you referring to Saladin Nader? How did Harold True even know him? Please expound.

I can't imagine a "redneck talking guy" like Harold naming his kid anything other than Sam or Bill.

Please explain your reasoning on this.

Kimchi said...

Katie said:
"No Paul Watkins didn't do that. Period"


Yes he did...Period..

Katie said:

"Charles Manson preached Helter Skelter all the time. More people than Paul said he did. We all know that."

Funny you say this...I just finished watching "Will you die for me" - Catherine Share stated "she never once heard CM talk about HS" and she was there...you and I were not...

Re: Harold True, don't know, just a tid bit I found interesting..and wonder at the coincidence or significance....

katie8753 said...

Let me throw some "food for thought" out there for all you people who think Charlie is an innocent little lamb who got railroaded.

Why would Patricia Krenwinkel, Leslie Van Houten, Susan Adkins & Charles Watson ALL say that Charlie was in total charge, that Charlie was preaching a race war, that Charlie ordered the murders, that Charlie told the girls to "go with Tex and do whatever Tex says", and that Charlie is now lying when he says he had nothing to do with the murders?

Why would they do that? They are all rotting in prison. What would they gain?

If Tex had been in charge and he was the one who decided to kill, why would the girls not say that in the 1990's interview? They never mentioned Tex being the one who was in charge. Only Charlie.

What could they possibly gain from saying that?

Or maybe, just maybe...it's the whole truth for once.

Kimchi said...

It's called

"Get out of jail free" card...

Just like Bruce Davis...

And just like Tex Watson, never once has he admitted his role in the Shea murder...

If he was truly a changed person or remorseful, he would come clean with that...but he was never charged with that murder and he was the one that killed him...Period....

katie8753 said...

>>>Kimchi said: It's called

"Get out of jail free" card...>>>

How is it a "get out of jail free" card? They're still in prison. Don't you think that if they knew someone OTHER than Charlie was responsible for the murders, that would have been a "get out of jail free" card?

>>>Just like Bruce Davis...>>>

What about Bruce Davis? He's just as guilty for the murder of Shea as anyone. And he says that Charlie ordered it.

>>>And just like Tex Watson, never once has he admitted his role in the Shea murder...If he was truly a changed person or remorseful, he would come clean with that...but he was never charged with that murder and he was the one that killed him...Period....>>>

No he's not. Shorty Shea was killed by Bruce, Clem, Charlie & Tex. If Tex doesn't want to talk about Shorty's murder, I can understand that. Why would it help him to talk about it.

That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is, why didn't the other defendants blame it all on Tex if Tex is the one who did it? Not one of them did. How is that a "get out of jail free" card?

The only one who went free is Clem, and that's because he made a deal to show them Shorty's body.

And Kimchi, you're ignoring my question. Did Harold True know Nader? If so when and how?

Kimchi said...

Katie said:

"And Kimchi, you're ignoring my question. Did Harold True know Nader? If so when and how?"

I have no idea...someone should ask him before he croaks...

I just think it's odd that he named his kid that..such a coincidence... I could be wrong, but I had a kid in the '70s and that name was unheard of...

katie8753 said...

>>>Kimchi said: I have no idea...someone should ask him before he croaks...

I just think it's odd that he named his kid that..such a coincidence... I could be wrong, but I had a kid in the '70s and that name was unheard of...>>>

How do you know he even named his kid that?

Let's be clear on one thing.

Charles Manson was the one who wanted Nader dead.

Why? He wanted Linda Kasabian to "get her hands dirty". She had resisted him thusfar. By participating in murder, it made his avenue much clearer. There was no other reason to order his murder.

Charlie sent her to Cielo Drive. She didn't kill.

He drove her to the LaBiancas. She didn't kill.

He then took her to Nader's place and told her to kill. She didn't kill.

The only reason he was interested in her being there was to control her. He couldn't. After all his preaching and pontificating, she couldn't do it.

The result? She was able to testify against him.

If she had murdered, she wouldn't have been as credible a witness as she was.

Poor Charlie. He wasn't as powerful as he thought.

beauders said...

saladin is a common middle eastern name. true was in the peace corp. when the murders were committed. maybe he came across the name in his travels and liked it.
if the women knew anything they would have said it by now in order to get out prison. they don't know anything. krenwinkel though believes she was under mind control and some of it came from manson and the rest came from the govt.

katie8753 said...

Hi Beauders!

I know the women don't know anything about motive. In fact, I don't think any of them really knows about motive except for Charlie.

But if Tex had been in charge of the murders, they would have known that. Some people like to place all the blame on Tex, thereby claiming that Charlie is completely innocent, which just isn't the case.

None of the girls have ever indicated that Tex was in charge and that the murders were his idea. The only one they've tried to blame it on was Linda, and that didn't work. The jury didn't buy it.

Gypsy said years later, when she wasn't "under the influence" of Charlie anymore, that the only reason she said that it was all Linda's idea was because Charlie told her to.

sbuch113 said...

Hi Katie.....You asked, Why put the car into 2nd, Why not put it in park.

That's what I'm saying. Standard Transmissions don't have a park geer........you just put it in geer, turn off the key, take your foot off the clutch, same as park, it aint going nowhere.
All accounts say the car was found in second forward.
In the crime scene pics only two pedals can be seen......but from the angle of the shot you can't see all the way to the left of the brake pedal.

katie8753 said...

Hi Sbuch. I was asking the question about why it was in 2nd gear because Kimchi had indicated that it was an automatic transmission. Being automatic, I was wondering why he didn't put it in park.

But, if it is indeed a standard transmission, I can see why he would put it in 2nd gear...to keep it from rolling.

I agree, it's hard to see all the way to the left to see if there is a clutch or not.