Thursday, September 29, 2011

A CULT… BY ANY OTHER NAME…
Why do people join cults?  Any number of reasons… but mostly poor ones.
The word “cult” refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre.  Studies performed regarding mind control, have identified a number of key steps in coercive persuasion:
1) Members are placed in physically and/or emotionally distressing situations.
2) Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized.
3) They receive what seems to be unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group.
4) They get a new identity based on the group.
5) They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and mainstream culture), and their access to information is severely controlled.

"The Manson Family" was a cult.  Charles Manson “deprogrammed” his followers, removing influences placed upon them by parents, schools, churches and society.  He told them “get rid of the ego… give-up your parents… your inhibitions… blank yourself out.”
He then “reprogrammed“ them.

There are over 5,000 cults operating in the US alone… of varying types and sizes. 
Cults can be based on religion, politics, environment, satan… just about anything. 
Beliefs become exclusive to the group, and members begin to operate with an "us versus them" attitude.

Those who deal with victims of abusive cults, know the pain inflicted on friends and family.
It tears families apart, leaving emptiness in it’s place. Individuals often lose their personal identity, to become one of the “chosen“.  Their real family is replaced by the cult.
Cults operate through a thought reform process, creating a new identity for members… one which fits-in with the group.  The means is through intensive indoctrination… i.e., living a new life according to group doctrine.

In a mind-control environment, freedom of choice is the first thing one loses.  The cult leader’s philosophy, books, teachings and practices, determine a new life for members.
This creates each member's new reality.  Everything done prior to the cult is found meaningless, whilst everything done within the group becomes meaningful.
If you try to remove a loved-one from a cult… you come against cult teaching.  Your loved-one will likely perceive you as personally attacking them… and their “new family“.
It becomes a challenge to unravel all the layers of teaching.

Some of the more infamous cults:
The People’s Temple – Jim Jones (Deceased)
The Branch Davidians – Vernon Wayne Howell a/k/a David Koresh (Deceased)
Heaven’s Gate – Marshall Applewhite (Deceased)
Yearning For Zion – Warren Jeffs (Life in Prison)
The Manson Family – Charles Manson (Life in Prison)
Submitted by Katie!!  Thanks Katie!!
video
Charlie plays Katie's "cult leader" card... LOL

114 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Every reality, is a new reality".

Charles Manson

katie8753 said...

The sooner everyone understands that the Manson family was a cult, and ATWA is another cult, the sooner people will get back to normal.

Love ya, Katie

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Weigh-in folks!

Personally...
I don't think it was ever Manson's initial intention to create a cult... not at all.

I don't think the notion ever crossed Manson's mind.

Upon release from prison... his aspirations were certainly not that "lofty".

I think he wanted to get laid... party... and play music.

I DO believe things eventually "morphed" into a cult... over time... due to various inner and outer influences.

I'll explain what I mean by that specifically... when I have a chance.

Peace... Lynyrd

katie8753 said...

To be....or not to be.... THAT is the question...

Night, night...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I also believe...

There's a significant possiblity that... although "the family" had eventually "evolved" into a true cult (over time)... Manson (honestly) may never have recognized it as such... ever.

Keep in mind... our country's experience regarding "cults" was somewhat limited in 1969.
And... Manson was not the most educated man on the planet.
I tuly believe there's a significant chance, that Manson never actually realized "what he had on his hands", sorta speak.

I think through his own personal manipulation skills... his own selfish desires... and the group corrupting him... (as well as, he corrupting the group)... Manson kinda "discovered" (created) a cult by accident.

Again... more on that stuff later...

St. Circumstance said...

http://www.rickross.com/groups/newcan.html

A great site called the Cult Awareness Network- read all about the largest most dangerous Cult in the World today..

The Church of Scientology...

St. Circumstance said...

This one took me two years to go through completely it has books, and actual stories, and much much more..

Knowing this is happening in your country will scare you shitless...

3 hours from where I live- they have taken over a whole town- they ride through the streets in buses and wear uniforms- and there are cameras on the street corners and if you from out of the area- the take your picture and follow you around when you are there...

http://www.xenu.net/

This is not a movie- it is happening today

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Saint.

Ironically, I was just watching a 3-part series about Scientology on YouTube the other night.
It was kinda random... I basically stumbled across it.

It's 24 minutes total, but it's worth watching.
(a 30-minute program, minus commercials)

It starts-off a bit slow, and it's in a foreign language (I believe German)... so you have to read sub-titles... but, I found the effort well worth it.

The main investigator is quite articulate and responsible... this is the real stuff.
A journalist/reporter... the man goes under-cover, and experiences the whole scene from day one.
He persists in the charade, until they literally drive him stark crazy... and fearful for his safety, he eventually calls it quits.

It just goes to show you (also) how international these freaks are...

Honestly... this footage blew my mind.

I knew one guy (personally) who was sucked-in to this, and it was the EXACT same story!
My friend was fairly independently wealthy... and this group convinced him to work for COS, six days a week, for little to no pay... over an hour from home.
He ended-up losing his wife, and home.
The same exact process... on this side of the Atlantic.

Like I said... it blew my mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3y7W1W4V4&feature=related

St. Circumstance said...

Absolute Craziness

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I have another story (much closer to home)... I may share at some point... if I have the time and inclination, to do it justice.

Cults come in many shapes and sizes... which I discovered first-hand... the hard way.

More later...

Seriously... you wouldn't believe the half of it.

As the 3 Stooges said:
"Truth is stranger than fiction".

Lynn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mattprokes said...

secrets of scientology on yt is worth watching.
also the life and death of peoples temple if its still on yt

St. Circumstance said...

Yes Lynn- I am in South Florida

St. Circumstance said...

I would like to hear Lynn....

L/S- your story as well

katie8753 said...

Hi guys!!!

St. Circumstance, that's some really creepy stuff. Scientology can be very dangerous.

Lynn I'd love to hear more about your experiences with cults.

Matt I saw that video on the People's Temple. It's amazing what people can be talked into.

katie8753 said...

I don't know how much anyone knows about Heaven's Gate, but that was a really strange cult. Marshall Applewhite was truly a nut-job and he had convinced his followers that they had to leave the earth, and board a spacecraft that was trailing the comet Hale-Bopp. It was their only way out.

In order to board the spacecraft, they had to commit suicide

They achieved this by ingesting phenobarbital mixed with applesauce or pudding, washed down with vodka. Plastic bags were secured around their heads after ingesting the mix to induce asphyxiation.

What a way to go. Talk about being gullible!!! LOL.

St. Circumstance said...

:) Katie- good post

katie8753 said...

I LOVE that video clip of Charlie.

"Hippy cult leader. What the hell is a hippy cult leader?"

HA HA HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Thanks St!

Feel free to expound on your thoughts about Scientology. Interesting subject and you seem quite knowledgeable about it. :)

bobby said...

Katie said: "I LOVE that video clip of Charlie"

Me too. but, Geraldo bugs the hell out of me.

Thanks for the great post Katie,

katie8753 said...

Hi Bobby. Thanks!

Venus said...

Cults are a scary thing. It'd probably be very easy to get sucked into one. If you're vulnerable or depressed and someone says what you want to hear, you're easy pickings for the group.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd I don't think Charlie's intention in the beginning was to start a cult either. It may have started out innocently enough that he was looking for the family he never had.

But I think he found out early on that he could attract women to him, and as such, he realized that he could use those women to get men to his "flock".

He already had the pimping skills needed to have a thriving business, and I think that's where he headed by gathering all the girls.

I do believe though that the Manson Family was a cult. It meets all the criteria.

A leader who "cares", stripping people of their pasts, of their identities, giving them new identities, encouraging them to leave family behind, etc.

Although he added a few touches that most other cults don't have.

Losing all your fears, there's only now, will you die for me, will you kill for me.

That's where the cult takes a giant step backward.

It's interesting to note that most other infamous cult leaders didn't teach their followers to kill others, only to kill themselves.

katie8753 said...

Hi Venus!

It's easy to sit here and think "I'd never do that".

But I have to agree. It would depend on the person's state of mind as to whether these cults can suck you in.

>>>If you're vulnerable or depressed and someone says what you want to hear, you're easy pickings for the group.>>>

Good point. If you're at a point in your life that things aren't going well, maybe you've cut ties with family because of some spat, and feeling really alone. Along comes a cultist, sees easy pickings, and starts in with everything you want to hear.

That is pretty scary. But I think that it may depend on how many "family values" have been drilled into your brain during your growing up years.

Things that you learned when you were young to never do.

katie8753 said...

I know next to nothing about Scientologists, except that they based their religion on some Sci Fi guy, and they have some very strange rituals.

But one thing I've read over and over, since a lot of Hollywood stars belong to this cult, is that they expect you to give a lot of money.

Maybe these stars get sucked in because they think they can "buy their way to heaven".

I just don't know.

bobby said...

>>>If you're vulnerable or depressed and someone says what you want to hear, you're easy pickings for the group.>>>

Sounds like the day Charlie met Lynette.

katie8753 said...

>>>Bobby said: Sounds like the day Charlie met Lynette.>>>

That's exactly what it sounds like Bobby.

Just like the day he met Pat Krenwinkel. Boy he sucked her in like a vacuum.

Here was a homely, hairy girl who couldn't get a date to save her life, and along comes Charlie, and he knows exactly what to say.

You know, I have to say, I've heard a lot of lines in my life.

From "You don't buy a pair of shoes without trying them on" to "Oh I'm not married, the reason my ring finger on my left hand isn't tanned is because I usually wear my class ring on that finger".

After a while, it gets really boring. Lots of "eye rolling".

But...I wasn't susceptible like Pat, or Lynn or others.

I had my head on straight.

katie8753 said...

And it's funny, not "funny ha ha" but "strange" how many girls brought other girls into the harem.

Gypsy was the leader at bringing other girls in. Charlie didn't have to lift a finger. Boy...a lot of guys are thinking "how do you become a hippie cult leader".

HA HA.

starship said...

Great post, Katie. Thanks!

Round here we used to have a religious cult called The Way who was active on college campuses. Haven't heard much from them in a while.

The NY Times Magazine published an article about Applewhite back in the 70s...I tried to find it online but didn't specifically, but the link below has some interesting things about him...

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/04/28/us/eyes-on-glory-pied-pipers-of-heaven-s-gate.html?ref=marshallherffapplewhitee

And I'm looking forward to buying and reading this book as it is supposed to have some real interesting new ground in it:

http://www.amazon.com/Thousand-Lives-Deception-Survival-Jonestown/dp/1416596399/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317390417&sr=1-3

starship said...

And seriously, WTF is wrong with the police out there in Southern California?

WTF??!!!!??!!

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44728314/ns/today-today_people/t/six-days-after-cliff-plunge-kids-find-dad/

starship said...

and I know my friend the scholarly hippie will say it only takes one....

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.6e068600f864975e4893dacdd8959965.7c1&show_article=1

katie8753 said...

Hi Starship!

Those 2 that started Heaven's Gate were soooo odd. Seemingly perfectly normal with children, thinking and acting insanely. Talking 38 people into buying into their "end of the world" crap, enough to kill themselves. Amazing.

That book on the People's Temple looks very interesting. I'll have to check that out. Thanks!

Yeah, if Jimmy sees that article he'll still be convinced that it's only a matter of time until something from space causes total devastation. The world is going to end.

Hmmmm......Speaking of cults..... HA HA.

Venus said...

Katie, I was going to bring up Pat Ktenwinkel too. She actually wasn't too bad looking when she applied makeup and fixed her hair. There's a photo of her with her hair in a flip from when she was in high school (?) and it just showed what she could look like. She was never going to be prom queen material, but if she'd had a bit more self-confidence (and some Nair!), it might've made a big difference in her life. I remember her sayiing that charlie kept telling her that she was beautiful and it made her cry. She would've followed him anywhere after that.

katie8753 said...

If only she had some Nair!! HA HA HA.

Yeah Venus, Charlie knew just what to say to Pat. He had learned that gift to find out in each person what they truly needed.

I'm not sure why Pat didn't have any boyfriends. She wasn't gorgeous but she wasn't that ugly. Maybe she was just too shy.

That condition that made her hairy could probably have been treated with hormone therapy. I guess her parents didn't think it was important. Or maybe they didn't have that back then, I don't know.

Kimchi said...

1) Members are placed in physically and/or emotionally distressing situations.
2) Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized.
3) They receive what seems to be unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group.
4) They get a new identity based on the group.
5) They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and mainstream culture), and their access to information is severely controlled

Hmmm, sounds like marriage...

1. Bought a house, now have a mortgage and bills...
2. You need to work to help support this house and bills...
3. I love you unconditionally..my husband being the leader... uh huh...true in most ways...
4. My new identity is my "new" last name
5. Now that we are married, he hates me talking on the phone to friends, bitches when my friends come over and talk about "old times", hates family get togethers, especially if it's mine...

I think I joined a cult when I got married...LOL

katie8753 said...

Hi Kimchi!!!

Geez, I hope you're kidding. That does sound like a cult. LOL.

Kimchi said...

Think about it..

Don't mean to sound all Woman's Lib..but geez...I have all the symptoms..LOL

Kimchi said...

Symptoms of a cult, that is...not to mention he is now 1/2 owner of my bank accounts due to Community Property laws here...

Kimchi said...

I surrended the money when I married..

Can you argue about that?

katie8753 said...

Kimchi, you've heard the expression "the old ball and chain".

It used to apply to women. Well, guess what. Now it applies to anyone. HA HA.

Seriously, I hope you're kidding. I was gonna congratulate you on your recent nuptials. I hope all is well with you!

Kimchi said...

Thanks Katie - all is fine -

Just another perspective on the subject..

Another way to look at it is all..

katie8753 said...

Well, I, for one, am happily divorced. But I envy those who enjoy a lasting relationship with that significant other!!!

8/9 baby said...

Another interesting cult, one I've mentioned before; the Aum Shinrikyo cult, responsible for the Sarin gas attacks on the Tokyo subways in 1995. It is still around under its new name, Aleph. It is not true that only lost, depressed types join cults, and this cult is a perfect example. There is an excellent book called "Underground", about this cult and the attacks. The author simply interviewed people and let their statements speak for themselves, the second half of the book is interviews with members of this cult, and they are very illuminating. The Aum cult had many members who were highly educated and successful, came from good and loving families, and all of that.

The author does look at the question of why people join cults, and it's worth reading his ideas about that. I think the worst cults, including Aum, People's Temple, Scientology, and the Manson Family, exploit an innate need we all have for a sense of meaning. A spiritual hunger that many people have no way of dealing with, or even anyone to talk to about it. This can create a need that drives people to accept irrational and even criminal ideas and situations, simply because the cult is willing to answer that hunger openly.

People need a sense of meaning, and that is easy to exploit if you know how. Call it spiritual purpose, or a sense of belonging, or whatever you like. If you understand that aspect of human nature, you can get some pretty deep hooks into people, and they will do the rest themselves. One of the most crucial lessons I've learned is; this is true of all of us, not just "those people" in cults. If you don't realize this, it just makes you an easy target - advertising works best on people who think they are invulnerable, to use an everyday example..

This is what makes cults and other extreme behavior inteteresting to me; the way it reveals human nature in general.

8/9 baby said...

L/s, I would love to hear about your experiences, and those of others. Please do tell...
I have more to say on the subject of Manson's intentions, but it's suppertime. I'll be back later :)

katie8753 said...

Hi 8/9 Baby!

>>>It is not true that only lost, depressed types join cults, and this cult is a perfect example.>>>

I agree. In fact the article I was quoting from made that example. I just didn't include everything that was written because I didn't want the thread to be too long.

People who join cults come from all walks of life. To assume that everyone who joins a cult is a stupid, illiterate loser is a misconception.

A lot of well educated people join cults. Why? Because they're completely empty inside. They need to be filled, and the "cult practice" is more than ready to proceed to fill an empty human, according to his/her needs.

>>>I think the worst cults, including Aum, People's Temple, Scientology, and the Manson Family, exploit an innate need we all have for a sense of meaning. A spiritual hunger that many people have no way of dealing with, or even anyone to talk to about it.>>>

That's true. All of the cults you mentioned have a leader who knew just enough about the Bible to lure people into their webs.

A lot of people are hungry to know more about spirituality, and instead of reading it for themselves, they listen to others orate their own interpretation of the content. Said interpretation being the "end all-be all" for the "cult" and especially for the "leader" of the cult. It's always misinterpreted for the better of the leader of the cult, i.e., he gets all the women, the men are castrated verbally and mentally and the leader scores big time.

katie8753 said...

I just noticed something in watching that clip of Charlie. He's got long fingers.

Now that explains a lot. HA HA HA.

8/9 baby said...

Katie 8753 said: "A lot of people are hungry to know more about spirituality, and instead of reading it for themselves, they listen to others orate their own interpretation of the content."

Absolutely, Katie. You have to be wary of easy answers, and the people peddling them. Cults offer easy answers as bait, and then they get you to "buy in" in some way that is hard to back out of later. I have heard that Scientology auditing sessions require revealing the things you feel most ashamed of, supposedly for therapeutic purposes. Of course, later that information can be used as leverage. Other cults ask you to give up all your money, your relationships, your normal boundaries and taboos - if you do so, you have paid a high price that makes it hard to walk away, even when those easy answers fail to deliver.

katie8753 said...

8/9 Baby that's right.

The Scientologists ask a high price for admission.

That's why a lot of their clientele are movie stars and such.

I can't believe how much Tom Cruise, John Travolta and Kirstie Alley have given them. Not to mention Priscilla Presley and her clan.

It amazes me how these people get sucked into this crap.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

These people get sucked in and if and when they want out, the road is difficult to navigate, as you said, because of anything revealed in secret that they don't want the world to hear.

Wasn't Michael Jackson into that stuff?

Of course, that only works on people in high places. It wouldn't work on the every day Joe because who cares what he or she did, unless it's illegal.

beauders said...

i think michael jackson was a jehovah's witness.

beauders said...

jim jones was so good at conning people that he got his picture taken with rosalyn carter when she was in san francisco campaigning for george moscone, who many say was elected because of jim jones getting out the vote with his followers. of course mrs. carter also got her picture taken with serial killer john wayne gacy as well. the people's temple and jim jones were displaying a lot of signs of being a cult early on in san francisco but he was highly respected and used by the local politicians to get things done. he was a san francisco big wig in the early seventies until 1977.

katie8753 said...

Hi Beauders!

That's right, MJ was a JW. LOL.

Didn't Jim Jones move from San Francisco down to Guyana because he was more or less run off?

I think his practices were becoming more and more bizarre and the people around them were getting really tired of it. In Guyana he could pretty much do as he pleased without complaints.

mattprokes said...

what happened was the relatives of some of the members were putting pressure on the peoples temple through politicians and the media so he moved everyone out.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Matt.

It's too bad they let their relatives move down there to die.

Course there probably wasn't anything they could do about it anyway. Once people are imbedded in cults it's hard to get them out. Sometimes even if they want out.

mattprokes said...

well they were deep in the jungle,if you recall theres a documentry i posted on yt and the blog about jim jones sons going back to jonestown.
theres a scene where they're flying to the airstrip where congressman ryan was killed.
looking out the window of the plane you can see what anyone trying to escape would be up against.
miles and miles of jungle.

leary7 said...

kinda funny talking about cults - for years a whole lot of folk have regarded the Mormon church as a cult. And now we are in striking distance of having a Mormon as president. Sorta mind blowing.
One tidbit about the Mormons, they of course denounce polygamy because it is against the law and did so way back in late 1800's so that Utah could get statehood. But what they don't tell ya is that they still teach/believe that polygamy will be prevelant at the next level in thier so-called celestial kingdom, i.e., heaven.
Of coruse you can't get into said celestial kingdom without being Mormon and Temple worthy so it is like an exclusive swingers club.
As the Mayans said, 2012 just might indeed be the end of something - reason? logic? sanity? the world?
A Mormon president. Yikes.

mattprokes said...

heres the doc,its an old episode of 20/20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6lpWrfWG_I
for the first few minutes the videos rough and the audios out of sync but it straightens out(i burned it from an old vhs tape)it gives you a good idea of the damage jones left behind in his own family.
i find it sad that the main legacy of jonestown seems to be kool-aid jokes.

mattprokes said...

heres another interesting one,this is jones talking over the loudspeakers at jonestown telling his followers how to act towards the congressman and their visiting relatives.
calling the visitors 'robots' and 'brainwashed'you can see the manipulation that many cults use.
this was recorded two days before the end 11-16-78.
once again the quality goes in and out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOfmEZghNgY

mattprokes said...

if anyones interested you can find mp3s of the jonestown tapes found by the fbi at this address.
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/Tapes/Tapes/tapes.htm

dozens of mp3s and the fbi transcriptions.
everything from sermons in the 60s to the tapes recorded in jonestown

katie8753 said...

Thanks for posting that again Matt. That was a good place to "pigeon hole" a cult. Not much chance of getting away on foot most likely.

>>>i find it sad that the main legacy of jonestown seems to be kool-aid jokes.>>>

Yeah that is sad, but I wouldn't say that Jonestown has a legacy worth remembering, except to look on it as an example of gullible loyalty to a psycho and hopefully thereafter avoiding those types of pitfalls.

mattprokes said...

if that link doesnt work just go to
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/
click the about jonestown link on the menu and then tapes

katie8753 said...

Hi Leary!

It's funny you should mention the Mormon church. I was going to get on and talk a little about the Yearning for Zion cult.

I knew that the Mormons stopped practicing polygamy years ago, but I didn't know they planned on having it on their "next level". Interesting.

The Yearning for Zion cult is an offshoot of the Mormons who still practice polygamy. And they also practice pedophilia.

They were located in Utah and Colorado, and pretty much were left alone by the local authorities because they were in the cult's pocket. But then they made the mistake of moving to West Texas, where they got busted.

Warren Jeffs was tried and convicted of having sex with minors (lots of them). He's serving a life sentence in prison. He recently tried to kill himself by not eating, but it didn't work. They fed him with an IV. HA HA.

katie8753 said...

It was interesting to watch the trial of Warren Jeffs a month or so ago. He reminds me of Manson.

At the last minute the petitioned to fire his attorneys and represent himself. The judge said okay.

Then he wanted to delay the trial so he could have time to "learn how to do it". The judge said no.

Then on his opening statement he proceeded to threaten the jury and the judge that "God was gonna damn them to hell" and he was quickly stopped and told that if he tried that again he would not be able to represent himself any longer and would have his counsel back.

Then when it came time for him to call defense witnesses he just stood there and said a few "bible" verses for about 30 minutes. The judge kept saying "You have 10 more minutes....you have 5 more minutes...okay sit down". HA HA.

He and his followers were convinced that God was just going to let him go. Sound familiar??

katie8753 said...

Matt, thanks for all the links. I'll have to check them out!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello to everyone, on this thread:

Saint, Lynn, MattP, Bob, Starship, Venus, Kimchi, 8/9 Baby, Leary, Beauders...
I hope I didn't miss anyone.
Many thanks to all, for your great input/contributions.

I will get to my "story" eventually (LOL)... it's just been very busy lately.

Hello to "Cease2".
Glad to see you've added yourself as a "follower".
Hope to see you in the comments section.

Peace... Lynyrd

Cease2 said...

Thank you L/S, and "Hello" back. Have enjoyed reading the posts of late. Good stuff.

katie8753 said...

Hi Cease2! Good to see you!

Cease2 said...

Hiya Katie. You too! x

katie8753 said...

Matt I watched that Jonestown You Tube you posted. Interesting stuff.

I'm amazed how much Jim Jones' voice sounds like Manson's, especially at the end of his life. Did you notice that??

leary7 said...

yeah, Katie, the LDS church has long been one of my interests. Did you see the article in the latest Texas Monthly on the Jeffs trial? I was a bit disappointed in it, thought the writer missed a bunch of good stuff.
I know you know Harry Reid and several other congressional leaders are Mormon, but I read somewhere recently that 23% of congress was LDS. I am not sure that is right, but it wouldn't surprise me.
The LDS church believes and teaches that the Second Coming will not happen in Jerusalem but in Independence Missouri and only after they complete their Temple there and that won't happen, they believe, until America is Mormon nation. Hence all the LDS people running for public office.
It can't happpen? A small fringe group taking over a nation? They said the same thing about the national socialist party in Germany in the 1930's.
I know, it's a stretch, but it still scares the crap out of me.

leary7 said...

this is my favorite LDS tidbit...
it is taught that Mormons have to have their Temple Recommend in order to get into heaven. A Temple Recommend is like their admission card to their Temples. In order to get your Recommned a Mormon has to be interviewed every year by his or her bishop and answer a series of questions.
In the 90's there was a movement by LDS bishops in the southwest where they were asking married couples, MARRIED COUPLES, if they were engaging in oral sex and if the couples answered yes they were denied their Recommend.
So even if you were married, if you enjoyed head you can't go to the Temple and thus ain't going to heaven.
The movement got sqaushed and hushed up but next time they are on TV, take a good look at the faces in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
Ain't none of those folks goin downtown.

katie8753 said...

Leary, first I have to say this:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

"next time they are on TV, take a good look at the faces in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
Ain't none of those folks goin downtown."

You are so delightfully funny!!!

HEE HEE.

katie8753 said...

I didn't see the article in the Texas Monthly about the Jeffs trial, but I was able to get a day-by-day blow-by-blow description on Court TV/Tru TV when it happened.

I was also able to see interviews with LOTS of people involved, including former members who have "escaped" and wanted to say what was/is really going on in the compound.

Warren Jeffs is a human monster. He molested little girls AND little boys.

He encouraged "water boarding" the babies to control them from crying. They were to be completely without emotion.

Then there was the infamous "audio recording" of Jeffs having sex with a 12 year old girl. It was an "instructional tape".

The cameras weren't in the courtroom so I didn't hear the tape, but I heard comments from people who did. Basically, Jeffs was telling the girl that if she didn't "act like she was enjoying it, God would be mad at her." Also in the background there were others in the room encouraging the girl to "like it".

Then of course you can hear Jeffs humping away like a mountain man on a wild hog.

The jury didn't take long at all to convict this "waste of sperm".

katie8753 said...

I've never thought much of the Mormon Church anyway. It's all based on some dude named Joseph Smith who claims he found some missing books.

How can people buy into this crap?

Plus don't the mormon boys, when they turn 18, have to ride around on bikes in the blistering heat wearing a suit and tie and try to "convert the public"?

If I was an 18 year old boy in that cult, I'd say "I'm outta here". HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Leary I wouldn't worry too much about the mormons taking over the world. They'd have to take a number. There are LOTS of different religions, organizations, cults, etc. that think the same thing.

I remember about 15 years ago, the general public was afraid the JW's were getting too big and outta hand.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

BTW Cease2...

I LOVE your avatar!!

I Love Squeaky!!!
She's definitely the coolest!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mormonism...
Wow.

That's one religion, I'm definitely NOT joining.

The chance of me getting "recommended" under those standards is zero.

What's their policy on a couple belts of bourbon, followed by beer, 3 nights a week? : )

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: The chance of me getting "recommended" under those standards is zero.>>>

I'd probably be burned at the stake.

HA HA HA.

mattprokes said...

in the 80s the jehovahs witnesses were in my neighborhood looking for souls to save and just for a goof i let them in and tried to freak them out by offering them whiskey and playing the sex pistols and iggy and the stooges just see their reaction well it backfired because every couple of years since then they stop by my mothers house looking for me.
i guess i made it onto a potential antichrist list or something.
last time was 2007.
anytime my mom gets pissed at me for something she threatens to give them my address....as you might guess i fall into line pretty quickly!

katie8753 said...

Matt it sounds like they marked your mother's house. Just tell her not to accept any Watchtowers and they'll get tired and give up. LOL.

8/9 baby said...

Matt, they probably keep coming back for more sweet, sinful whiskey and punk rock. :)

Cease2 said...

L/S said...
"Every reality, is a new reality".
Charles Manson

Other sages worth quoting...

"There's a difference between kneeling down and bending over!"
Frank Zappa

"Never give a sucker an even break"
WC Fields

katie8753 said...

>>>8/9 Baby said: Matt, they probably keep coming back for more sweet, sinful whiskey and punk rock. :)>>>

You're probably right 8/9 Baby. I didn't think about that. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Cease2, let's add:

"There's a sucker born every minute"
P.T. Barnum

"If I started killing people...there'd be none of you left"
Charles Manson

whiskybeauty said...

Amuses me that L Ron Hubbard (founder of Scientology)had said that he wanted to start a religion because that was where the money was.This sci-fi writer then dreams up fantastical 'facts' involving aliens and weird planets and people fall for it.You couldn't make it up!

sbuch113 said...

Interesting thread.

If you don't want Jehovah's Witnesses returning to your door, tell them you were a Jehovah's Witness and you've been disfellowshipped.
The equivalent of excommunication, the disfellowshipped are seen as the worst of "bad associasion".
Witnesses will trip over each other leaving your doorstep.

whiskybeauty said...

Yeah, I'm not sure Manson initially intended to start up a cult. Given his troubled,unstable childhood, I think he was continually seeking attention. It didn't matter if it was good or bad, he just wanted to be noticed, hence the reform school, prisons etc.

Therefore, when he attracted lots of followers who clearly idolised him, that was undoubtedly a HUGE ego-boost; very much a case of 'wow, I'm a somebody now.' And the fact he could get people to kill for him, to hang on to his every word, to quote his words in song and speech, well what an ego boost that must have been to him. And of course the murders made a HUGE impact and ensured he was in the spotlight even more.

The fact he could successfully incite others to kill would make him feel much more powerful than if he acted alone. It's the ultimate ego-boost for him; the fact that people would do anything for him. And what 'better' way to test this out than by seeing if they would carry out atrocious crimes?

katie8753 said...

Hi Whiskybeauty & Sbuch!!

The fact that people buy into that Scientology crap is amazing.

It reminds me of back in the 80's all the hollywood stars were paying huge bucks to have JZ Knight "Channel" Ramtha.

katie8753 said...

I know a guy who got sucked into the Jehovah's Witnesses back in the 90's because of his wife. He and I used to argue about it all the time.

Then...when he divorced his wife...he divorced the JW's. HA HA.

Cease2 said...

Good post by Whiskybeauty. I agree that what became a de facto cult was largely a result of serendipity for Charlie on his release from prison. The times, the place, the aggregation of devoted disciples plus his charismatic, preachy personality.

The Family setup seems to tick all the boxes as per Katie's excellent original post.

And things that strikingly make it appear cult-like to me are the women spouting Manson-speak and the men mimicking & even becoming Charlie.

mattprokes said...

i think manson intended to start a cult in his own way he just might not have known what he was doing had a name.
was the word cult in wide usage back in the sixties?

the one thing i remember the witnesses telling me was 'you don't have to live like this,theres a better way'
yeah going around to peoples houses and trying to shove your agenda down their throats!
thanks but i'll stick with iggy.

katie8753 said...

That is a good post whiskybeauty. Lots of good points.

It's the ultimate ego-boost to have people kill complete strangers because you said "sic 'em".

>>>Cease2 said: And things that strikingly make it appear cult-like to me are the women spouting Manson-speak and the men mimicking & even becoming Charlie.>>>

That's true. And look at how the girls acted in front of the courthouse, singing, chanting, bragging, threatening. Good Lord, their brains were completely gone at that point.

And it's interesting to see how the most hard core of the girls, Pat, Leslie, Susan, Gypsy, Brenda, Sandy, Squeaky, etc. eventually "got their brains back" and saw Charlie for who and what he is. But it took each of them years to come out of it.

katie8753 said...

>>>Matt said: i think manson intended to start a cult in his own way he just might not have known what he was doing had a name.
was the word cult in wide usage back in the sixties?>>>

I don't remember hearing the word "cult" a lot in the 60's until the end of 1969 when they declared the Manson Family a cult. Doesn't mean there weren't other cults out there, I just don't recall hearing about them.

I think in the beginning he just wanted a family, but he did still want to maintain control, so that's probably "cultish" right off the bat.

I know that he had learned methods of controlling people from different sources in prison, and he knew how to work it.

>>>the one thing i remember the witnesses telling me was 'you don't have to live like this,theres a better way'
yeah going around to peoples houses and trying to shove your agenda down their throats!
thanks but i'll stick with iggy.>>>

Ain't that the truth. I've asked them many times "do you really like walking around all dressed up on a hot day, knocking on doors and having them slammed in your face?"

I just don't get some of these "joiners". LOL.

mattprokes said...

i've got no problem with people believing what they want to believe,its when they try to drag others into it and tell them their way is the only way.thats when i have a problem with them.

leary7 said...

those "mormon boys", Katie, are precisely why they scare the crap out of me.
There are 56,000 - FIFTY SIX THOUSAND - Mormon missionaries out right now on their two year missions...where they are not allowed to watch TV, read a newspaper, go swimming, talk to their families but twice a year (Xmas and Mother's Day) and a thousand other restrictions.
You couldn't get 56 Catholic kids to give up two years of their youth like that.
Here's one other Mormon anecdote that I love.
Of course premarital sex is verbotten...so a couple of years ago bunches of Mormon students at BYU started going to Vegas for long weekends, got hitched, tore up the sheets for a few days and then had the marriage quicky annulled. There was such an epidemic of it happening the president of BYU had to issue a proclamation about it. That just cracks me up, goody-two shoe Mormon kids pulling a fast one in order to get their pipes cleaned.
The Mormons, by the way, have both a higher divorce rate than the national average as well as a higher spousal abuse rate and teenage pregnancy rate.
They do a helluva PR job selling themselves as the "clean family church".

bobby said...

I purchased a home out in the country 20 some years ago. My closest nieghbor for the first ten years was a JW church.

They were a great neighbor & rarely did they do the door thing being so close. A couple of them got a little too attached to my garden but , hey that was ok.

Leary, As far as a Morman president, I can only think of the hub bub when JFK became the first Catholic president. It was a big deal at the time.

Of course that only brought back camelot which is no biggie compared to the second coming.

We have a local radio talk show host up here who is similar to Glenn Beck. One way these guys fullfill there desire for a higher place in the kingdom is by having many children. The way they do this is to divorce & remarry a younger woman.. in liew of the bigamy thing.

katie8753 said...

Matt I agree totally. If people run to run thru the woods naked and eat snail dung, doesn't bother me a bit. As long as I don't have to see it or they don't try to get me to join in. :)

katie8753 said...

Leary I wouldn't worry about the Mormons. 56,000 is a drop in the bucket compared to the population of this country. And, as you pointed out, I find it REALLY hard to believe that these kids are that pure. I mean, these are teenage boys on their own for the first time? That's like opening Pandora's box.

And, as Bobby pointed out, Kennedy was a Catholic president and he never tried to change anyone's religion. I would have to say if any President tried to do that, he would be out on his can pretty quickly. He certainly can't do that by law.

katie8753 said...

I meant to say "If people WANT to run thru the woods naked"

Typing too fast. HA HA.

mattprokes said...

katie- running through the woods naked is one thing but i have to object to people eating snail dung!

leary-i've followed your comments on the blogs since you started and i know its offtopic but i've got to ask:what did Lhos daughters think of him and what did you think of marina (if you met her)
just curious

katie8753 said...

Leary you have nothing to fear from the Mormons.

They are a very small sector of 100's of different religions in this country alone.

This Yearning For Zion cult that came to Texas was Mormon enough to raise eyebrows.

I know you live in Texas, and as such, probably know that the different regions of Texas are extremely diverse.

North, East & West Texas, along with the Panhandle of Texas is extremely redneck. And I'd say that most of the rest of Texas is "watch out sucka".

That's why I was shocked when the Yearning For Zion cult bought acreage right outside El Dorado, Texas. That was a death sentence for them. GET OUTTA HERE.

If they had bought land in remote New Mexico or Arizona or even California, no one would probably have noticed.

But they had to settle in El Dorado, Texas. The citizens were outraged, and didn't stop until they got a raid on that camp. What was Warren Jeffs thinking???

katie8753 said...

Those Mormons may flourish in Utah, but if you look at other states, especially Texas, they are pretty much nonexistent.

In all my years of living, I've only known one person who was a Mormon. It was the Aunt of a guy I dated back in the 70's. And the family talked about her in "hushed tones" like she was the "family secret". HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Okay this is kind of off subject, but not really. It's about cults.

I just watched a movie called "The Cat's Meow" about William Randolph Hearst and his gal pal Marion Davies. They took a cruise with lots of "movie stars" and Tom Ince was killed. The movie indicates that Hearst killed him. Of course it wasn't proven.

Anyway, while watching the movie, I was reminded about one of my trips to California when we visited the Hearst Castle, located, I believe in San Simeon (okay you CA gals, Marliese, Lynn or Kimchi, please correct me if I'm wrong!)

This guy Hearst was a BIG WIG in California and what he said went.

Talk about cults! He had control of all of Hollywood. Word was that if he invited you to a party at his digs, either you attended or you were out of a job. And it didn't matter if you were Charlie Chaplin or Clark Gable. Heads would roll. LOL.

And these parties went on for days. Hearst had lots of "cottages" around his castle to house his guests, so he expected them to be there. You didn't say "no" to Mr. Hearst.

leary7 said...

here's why I worry Katie...
Carl Jung once wrote that "the German people have a particular and peculiar susceptibility to mass psychosis".
In other words, they are suckers for "group think".
I am wary of any group that can install a heightened version of "group think" in its followers. There are six million Mormons in this country and 12 million worldwide and it is the fastest growing church in South America and other parts of the world. And those guys run a tight ship. Brigham Young was a wacko but he was the equal of Henry Ford and others in terms of being a business visionary.
Anyways, enough of my rant. You're right, they are just one of many groups out there that have a crazy agenda. Hockey starts this week and I will stop worrying about cults.

leary7 said...

hey Matt, just saw your question.
June was just two and her sister a month old when LHO was killed so June had no memories of him.
She grew up sheltered and was a strong minded kid with pretty high self-esteem. At the time I knew her she mostly had a negative attitude towards her dad because he had beat her mom and such. June was a pretty conservative Republican Baptist and mostly regarded her father as a loser. I think maybe she has changed somewhat since I knew her in the eighties.
Marina was/is a trip and a half. Remember, she was just 21 went it all went down. And she was intense, with some serious appetites hedonistically speaking. And like June she has changed her views over the years and pretty much nowadays argues there was more to it than Lee's idiocy.
I've got stories but probably this is not the venue to share them. Email me someday and I will share.

mattprokes said...

leary thanks for the response,i'll drop you a line sometime.

beauders said...

i lived in the bay area as a kid. when patty hearst was kidnapped, you'd think the pope was kidnapped by the reaction. when the s.l.a. demanded the hearst's to feed the poor and they did, governor ronald reagan came on tv saying he hoped all the people who got the free food got botulism.

beauders said...

on mormons-i live in portland, oregon and we have plenty, i have them in my extended family and they have a temple a few miles from where i live. idaho also has a lot of mormons. my cousins two boys and a girl were virgins when they married, i have no doubt on that. the true mormons are completely brainwashed and if someone in the hierarchy in utah says jump they say how high. mormonism is a horrible brainwashing cult.

katie8753 said...

Hi Beauders. I remember when Patty Hearst was kidnapped by the SLA. I don't remember much else until they found her robbing a bank.

Talk about brainwashing. I remember her saying she was not guilty of any crime because they had brainwashed her.

At the time, I had my doubts that anyone could convince someone that committing a crime was okay to do if that person had always thought that it was wrong.

But over the years, according to Patty, and what was done to her, I'm thinking it is possible.

Not having been though all that, I really can't have a definite opinion though.

Either she was brainwashed, or she was a rich kid that had fun acting out.

katie8753 said...

I just remembered that the people next door when we first moved here 23 years ago were mormons. They were really strange. She always referred to him as "my husband". She never said his name. Other than a few quirks, they seemed fairly normal though. They never tried to push their religion on us.

They only lived here for about 2 years. Then they headed back to Utah. They didn't like it here. LOL.

And...many years ago, I decided to let a neighbor down the street keep my son after school since I was working. They were Jehovah's Witnesses. Their son and my son were in the same grade.

They were really nice people, but I found out one day that she was having my son read their literature and I let her know in no uncertain terms that it was not "okay with me". She stopped doing it and I removed my son from her care shortly after.

I just remember that my son commented that he felt sorry for her son because he was not allowed to participate in Christmas and other holidays and the other kids laughed at him.

He always looked so sad.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Here's your family card".
AHahahaha

sbuch113 said...

When the Jim Jones Guyana thing blew up I was in Texas visiting my sister for Thanksgiving.
A few days later I was back home in So. Cal. in time to see Black Sabbath in concert.

Just wanted to share that.
Thinking back on it, it was a strange mix.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Just goes to show ya...
There's never a bad time for a Sabbath concert! : )

Thanks SBuch... you ROCK!

whiskybeauty said...

There'a a book called 'The Lucifer Effect' which explores how it is that 'good' people can do evil,including on a mass scale. I'm thinking of getting it-that sort of psychology fascinates me!

katie8753 said...

Hi Whiskybeauty! Let us know how the reading turns out!!!