Monday, April 4, 2011

Book Club Discussion #1 
Ed Sanders, "The Family" - Pages 1-22

90 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

This section of the book, has a deceptively large amount of background crammed-in.

Manson’s petty crimes (and some not so petty)… are outlined, from car theft, to cashing stolen checks, to pimping.

It also discusses how he utilizes his prison time, from scientology, to music… to discussing the finer points of pimping with other inmates.

His two psych reports are covered… both indicating he was a poor choice for parole ('course they parole him anyway. So much for the psych reports. LOL).

He manages to get Rosalie,… a woman named Mary-Jo, and Mary Brunner all pregnant by page 22. LOL

His 1967 recording session at Universal Studios (set-up by Phil Kaufman) is covered.

And of course… Sanders discusses how/when/where each of the girls are added to the clan… Mary, Lynn, Pat, Susan, Ella and Ruth respectively.
All pretty standard reading so far.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

What really stood-out for me though… was how Sanders explains quite emphatically on a couple occasions, how important it was for Manson to contact his mother, and the efforts he made to do so.

Page 13: “Manson made definite attempts to locate his mother, Kathleen.
He secured permission from his federal parole officer to travel out of state several times.
Once he went north to Washington in search of her. Another time, east to West Virginia”
.

Page 17: “On September 15, 1967, they proceeded to Oregon.
The Volkswagen van spent two weeks shuttling back and forth between Washington and Oregon, spending considerable time in the Seattle area.
One of the purposes of this trip in the northeast probably was to locate Charlie’s mother”
.

Also along these lines:
Page 8: “In December of 1963, Manson’s mother, wrote a letter to Judge Mathes offering to put up her house as security for Manson’s release.
The judge had his clerk write her back, that after ninety days the judge had no jurisdiction to alter terms of sentencing”
.

We’re usually told, that Manson had little use for his mother, and likewise.
These passages seem to dis-credit that mindset.
It seems Manson was searching his ass off for his mother… at least according to Sanders.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Also of Note:
Page 11: Alvin Karpis explains: “Manson kept asking me to fix him up with high-power men like Frankie Carbo”.

Frank Carbo is very significant, to one of my stronger theories regarding the LaBianca scene.
We’ll get into that at some point in the future, I’m sure.

katie8753 said...

Hi Lynyrd. Glad we started the discussion.

It seems a lot of people have mistakenly raised Charlie up to a level of "super hero". The fact is, Charlie was a thug, bully & pimp.

He acquired a "learned behavior" from his many years in prison. In particular, hypnotism and subliminal motivation, mainly on how to control people with different applications, applying to each individual what he or she needed.

A lot has been said about Charlie's mother. I know she wasn't "Donna Reed", but I really don't think she's as black as they paint.

Boy they put an awful lot of miles on that bus!! All the way to Mississippi and Alabama! All on Daddy Krenwinkel's gas card. I guess he wasn't paying too much attention to where the gas was purchased. HA HA

katie8753 said...

Charlie was really fortunate that, in getting out in 1967, he was out at the right time. All his psycho-babble was devoured by the waifs he collected, like the last meal of a convicted felon going to the chair.

It's easy to see, reading the beginnings, how these "followers" were so devoted to Charlie. Even in later years, to kill for him. Even someone as "normal and ordinary" as Pat Krenwinkel or Mary Brunner.

With a lot of mind control and LSD, it's probably not that hard to amass a bevy of followers, likened to the Pied Piper.

This is when he started programming them into thinking he was immortal and not held by the bonds of this earth. That he could perform magic and was virtually inpenetrable.

St. Circumstance said...

I am not a big Ed Sanders fan at all. As much as Bugs tried to put forth his agenda in his book- Sanders does the same, and his agenda is black magic and secret films... He mentions these things so often that you assume they were a part of the story weather they really were or not... He also gives himself a lot of not so subtle compliments and credit for being a major player of the times in a few instances - but these things become more apparent later in the book...

What I notice about the first few pages is that Charlies entire background, and the early formation of the family are covered in 22 pages.. he goes from birth to Topanga canyon in 22 pages- this makes it even more obvious- in my opinion- that Sanders wanted to get past the vanilla stuff and spend the bulk of his efforts on the more fantastic elements of the story...

There were plenty of those :)

katie8753 said...

Hi Circumstance!!

I agree that Ed Sanders isn't always 100% accurate, in fact probably not even 75%. There are many discrepancies in reading the entire book that are obviously conflicting with other reports.

I agree that he skimmed past Charlie's early life to get to the "meat", but possibly did that because the book is not a biography of Charlie, but rather a "guide" to understanding the entire scenario.

Love your input St.!!! Tell us more!!

GOOD TO SEE YOU BIG GUY!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Circumstance!

I skimmed the book many years ago... so, this is essentially my first reading.

Having said that...
In the end, I'm probably going to agree with you totally.

After reading the first 22 pages, I came away thinking:
Where are we gonna go from here?
We've already covered Manson's entire life, including picking-up most of the girls.
We've got 520 pages left.
What could possibly fill 520 more pages, at this point?? LOLOL
My BS meter went off... and I immediately thought... "I better put my waders on". LOL

He's already said one thing that seemed speculation to me.
In discussing Manson's incarceration, he says "he continued his sex life through the only means possible... hand, mouth and buttock".
That smacks of sensationalism to me.
How could Sanders really know that for sure, unless he was the one in jail with Manson, utilizing his buttock? LOLOL
Again... my BS meter went off.

If Sanders can effectively cover so much ground in 22 pages... I'm really curious to see what these next 520 pages contain... and I'm not optimistic! LOLOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said>>>
"It seems a lot of people have mistakenly raised Charlie up to a level of "super hero". The fact is, Charlie was a thug, bully & pimp".

Charlie's old and harmless now... he's both famous and infamous... and a lot of folks enjoy befriending him for various reasons.
Folks like to identify with famous people, and everyone likes to feel they belong somewhere... that they're "part of a group".
Supporters of Charlie have developed in recent years, into essentially a "group", much like the way "Deadheads" followed the Grateful Dead.

Let's be frank... the Grateful Dead lured and retained as many fans with their "mystique", as they did with their music.
It was "cool" to be a deadhead.
It was "cool" to be part of that group.
The "group" concept, in some ways, was more fun, than the band itself.
I'm a HUGE Grateful Dead fan... but, even I can identify, and admit those things.
The best thing a band can do... (from a commercial stand-point) is create a situation, where the kids think it's "cool" to be their fan.
If you can somehow achieve that concept... you're gonna sell stuff... a lot of stuff. LOL

It's kinda the same with Charlie.
Charlie's funny, interesting, musical, insightful... one might even say influential.
But, at the end of the day... the "mystique" outweighs the reality.
In reality, Manson was a life-time criminal, and likely would have spent his whole life in and out of jail, even if the murders never happened.
If anything... it's amazing he managed to stay "out" as long as he did, given all the laws he was breaking. LOLOL

"It is what it is", as they say.
Manson is not the monster, the media has made him out to be... and he's not the "savior" or "Matryr" his supporters have made him out to be either.
Somewhere between those two extremes, is reality.
That's my two nickels, for what it's worth.


Katie said>>>>
"He acquired a "learned behavior" from his many years in prison. In particular, hypnotism and subliminal motivation, mainly on how to control people with different applications, applying to each individual what he or she needed".

That's true.
He was smart enough to choose the right "audience" as well.
Charlie's "schtick" would have been much less effective on folks over 40 years old... or even his own age.
He was successful by targeting youth... particularly, female youth, who had issues (but then again, who doesn't have issues at that age, which goes back to my first point, which is age).
Although... I do think Manson had a "way" with most people, to a greater or lesser extent.


Boy they put an awful lot of miles on that bus!! All the way to Mississippi and Alabama! All on Daddy Krenwinkel's gas card. I guess he wasn't paying too much attention to where the gas was purchased. HA HA

Yeah... I know huh? LOLOL

St. Circumstance said...

Its a good book. you will see what I am talking about though... I have read several versions of this book, and all the deleted stuff as well- he was forced to take a out a bunch of stuff referring to the Process Church after a lawsuit- so at least some of that stuff was not good info- and he still managed to make numerous veiled references to them... even the first sentence might have been one. He ends that sentence "All was" The process said hello and goodbye to each other- As it is, and As it was...
Any reference in the book - to a blond haired god- or Circe, or even when he points out Polanski was trapped in a garage with a large group of Dogs- that is a Process accusation placing them in the area... He doesnt mention the process as much by name in later editions- but if you know the Process - all the signs and implications are there

He seemed a little stuck on the darker sides of things - that and the movies he tries over and over to obtain...

But it was still a very good read, and I am looking forward to hearing all thoughts on it going further...

It mentions many things about the people associated with the family that bugs didnt cover... some of it may be dark- but still very interesting... and a good bit of it is probably pretty accurate..

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: He was successful by targeting youth... particularly, female youth, who had issues (but then again, who doesn't have issues at that age, which goes back to my first point, which is age).
Although... I do think Manson had a "way" with most people, to a greater or lesser extent.>>>

I agree Lynyrd. His biggest target were young girls. It was so easy to find lost young girls who never felt loved, and then shower them with his "love" and make them feel important and loved for the first time in their lives. He knew he could later use them from his "pimp" experiences, to lure others to the pack.

His "schtick" most likely would never have worked on a determined young lady with lots of a familial love background and lots of self esteem.

He certainly knew how to pick 'em! LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Circumstance.

I honestly thought that the "All Was" (two word sentence) was a mis-print. AHahaha
I thought to myself...
"All the editions this book has gone through, and there's a "typo" on page one?" LMAO
Subliminal messages...

I've heard mixed reviews about this book, from various people.
My mindset, was that "The Family" and "Helter Skelter" are standard reading in these circles.
So... when Mary suggested the book discussion idea... I figured, those books would be a good place to start.
I'm curious to see how Sanders utilizes the next 500+ pages... to say the least.
We'll see...

What I really want to read is "Squeaky" by Jess Brevin.
I bought it from Amazon months ago... and it's still collecting dust on my shelf.
There aren't enough hours in a day! LOL
I'm hoping the group is up for reading that soon.

bobby said...

Sanders never specifies if manson found his mother on any of these trips. I know she visited him in jail with the daughter she adopted with a husband. Does anyone know if they had contact leading uo to "helter skelter" ?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Bob!

That's a question that crossed my mind as well.
Unfortunately, I don't have an answer.

Anyone?

katie8753 said...

Hi Bobby.

I don't know if Manson ever found his mother on those trips after she moved to West Virginia, but it does say that he "announced" that he was going to live with his mother on Harkinson Ave in LA in 1958 after one of his releases.

>>>Circumstance said: even the first sentence might have been one. He ends that sentence "All was">>>

Circumstance, thanks for explaining that. I never did understand what he meant.

St. Circumstance said...

Katie- I am not sure you can go from one extreme to the other more emphatically than to go from Sexy Sadie to the dingbat...

lol but I admire you for doing it!!

bobby said...

just some food for thought. We are reading a book with what 30 someyears of hindsight ? It will be interesting to determine how much he was right about, wrong about & still up for debate about.

Katie- do we know anything about his stay with mom in '58 ? or didnt he make it then ?

St. Circumstance said...

Bobby- that is an excellent point that I really didn't even think about to be honest...

in hindsight- he had no idea, and was just going on what had to be the hundreds of rumors he was hearing at the time...
but you can tell that certain things were definitely his focus, and the stuff he was hearing obviously fueled the fire...

So maybe he really did think at the time that this stuff was more important than it ended up being, and in that case- maybe he deserves slack for that... because reading the book 30 years later- it seems he is pushing that stuff- but I never did consider the context of WHEN he wrote it...

katie8753 said...

>>>Circumstance said: Katie- I am not sure you can go from one extreme to the other more emphatically than to go from Sexy Sadie to the dingbat...

lol but I admire you for doing it!!>>>

HA HA HA HA. You never know who I'll be next. Just hang onto yer hat!! LOL.

>>>Bobby said: Katie- do we know anything about his stay with mom in '58 ? or didnt he make it then ?>>>

Bobby all I know is that he told the parole board he was going to live there. Now whether he did or not, I'm not sure.

It does say that in May, 1959, he was caught attempting to cash a stolen and forged check, and the 1953 Cadillac convertible he was driving belonged to his mother. So I'm assuming that he was living with her, because he was driving her car.

BTW she must have had some bucks. a 5 or 6 year old Cadillac isn't cheap, even now. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Bobby, excellent point about this book being written so long ago. That really does make a lot of difference and I hadn't considered that either.

bobby said...

Katie said-the 1953 Cadillac convertible he was driving belonged to his mother.

What a visual i'm getting from that, Charlie driving mommies cady around trying to pick up chicks & cashing bad checks.

katie8753 said...

>>>Bobby said: What a visual i'm getting from that, Charlie driving mommies cady around trying to pick up chicks & cashing bad checks.>>>

ROFLMAO!!

"Hi Charlie. Say, is this your Poligrip in the console?" LOL.

And we had fun, fun, fun til Mommy took the Caddy awaaayyy. HA HA HA.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

According to Sanders...
"Cease to exist", and "Come to now", are common scientology lingo.

bobby said...

And we had fun, fun, fun til Mommy took the Caddy awaaayyy. HA HA HA.

funny & ironic

St. Circumstance said...

L/S- if there is anything I have studied more than Manson- it is Scientology.... very very bad group of people

but those are not common Scientology terms...

bobby said...

According to Sanders...
"Cease to exist", and "Come to now", are common scientology lingo.

from the little i have read about scientology & manson, I beleive that manson extensively used the scientology concepts/technics on his family.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

LOLOL

I'll tell ya...
Kathleen Maddox musta been doing alright financially.
Driving a 6 year old Cadillac in the fifties, was quite a status symbol.
My Dad always dreamed of owning a Caddy... or a Lincoln.

Being a blue-collar guy, he always had to settle for Pontiacs, Fords, and Chevy's. LOLOL

St. Circumstance said...

There are a few very well known Ex-Scientology sites, and a few revealing books by insiders, as well as defectors, and I have read them all - all the sites and online books by the defectors- and nowhere do I recall those terms... even the ones that quote directly from C/S and are friendly dont use those terms....

When I started looking into the Manson/Scientology connection- i came across a whole new best in the Church of Scientology- that's a whole new subject and a very long and twisted one....

imagine the family with alot of money- and there own ship at sea- for over ten years lol- and only then can you imagine ... but some tings were the same- leader was much older, and relied for his closest confidants much younger girls...

sigh.... the 60's lol the possibilities were limitless

St. Circumstance said...

Sorry- the first part of my post didnt make it lol- but L/S- I dont think those are Scientology phrases

St. Circumstance said...

new beast lol - sorry reading my own posts- sigh- bed time!!

katie8753 said...

Hey Circumstance. Explain what "processing" in Scientology means.

According to Sanders, Charlie did study Scientology, but converted it to his own needs, and they called it "squirreling".

I don't know much about Scientology, except what I've read about Tom Cruise and his wife. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Circumstance said...
"L/S- if there is anything I have studied more than Manson- it is Scientology.... very very bad group of people
but those are not common Scientology terms"...

I've only inter-faced with one Scientologist in my entire life.
The guy's name was Jay...
a musician... and one of those real far-out types.
The type of guy, who did a lot of sh*t just for the shock factor, and to be different.
The word "alternative" safely described everything this dude was about.
He tried explaining it (Scientology) to me one night... and it sounded like a bunch of bullshit... and quite honestly, I was barely listening after ten minutes. LOL
He was real entertaining in many ways... but, I never put much stock in anything he ever said or did, beyond, as I said... entertainment value.

Sanders says those terms are household Scientology.
You say they're not.
I'll take your word for it.
My knowledge of Scientology is zero.
I'm a guy who "knows what he knows"... and "knows what he doesn't Know"... and Scientology, is DEFINITELY in my "I don't know shit" column! LOLOL
Like I said...
I'll take you word on that subject.

Thanks Saint!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint said>>>>
"When I started looking into the Manson/Scientology connection- i came across a whole new beast in the Church of Scientology- that's a whole new subject and a very long and twisted one"....

I would imagine someone could study and research Scientology, for an entire lifetime... and to my knowledge, the subscribers to that doctrine often do.

I know my buddy Jay used to teach, counsel, or something... a few days a week.
What do they have some type of hierarchy, according to how many hours of instruction you get or something?
Is that what they call "processing"?

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd I tried looking up processing on the web, and only found: see auditing. Then when I look under auditing, it says: done by an auditor.

I know zip about Scientology, except that it was started by a Sci Fi writer named L. Ron Hubbard.

Ed says that Charlie was "processed" several times, and I was just wondering what that means. "Brainwash"???

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Maybe Saint can fill us in, on Scientology when he gets a chance.

The other thing I always wanted to know...
Is "Dianetics" by L.Ron Hubbard, basically their bible?
That may come off as an extremely stupid question...
but then again, I'm coming from a place of zero education on this topic.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie...
Don't knock yourself out researching.

I'm sure Saint can give us a real good understanding in 2-3 paragraphs, when he has the chance.

bobby said...

http://www.scientology-lies.com/understanding-scientology.html

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie...
Is there an echo in here? LOL

This is getting scary.
You're posting the same thing as me, over and over, as I'm typing.

Have we really been blogging together this long? LMAO

Needless to say Saint...
You only have to answer the question once, and we'll both read it. : )

bobby said...

Katie...
Don't knock yourself out researching.


I should have read this before i sent that link lol. there is a lifetime of info on that site.

i was having fun talking about charlies mom's cady.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Holy Moly Bob!

A person could spend 6 months reading all those tabs!

That's a subject for a blog all it's own! LOL

katie8753 said...

Yeah Saint, didn't mean to "bowl you over". HA HA.

If you're tired, we'll talk about this tomorrow.

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: Katie...
Is there an echo in here? LOL

This is getting scary.
You're posting the same thing as me, over and over, as I'm typing.

Have we really been blogging together this long? LMAO>>>

Great minds think alike!!! LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bob... speaking of Manson's mother:

Someone recently sent me a photo.
The photo clearly depicts the "family" standing in the halls of the courthouse.
With them, is a nicely dressed woman, whom the person who sent me the photo... believes could be Manson's Mother.

I viewed the photo, and also believe this is possible.
I'm not an expert on Manson's Mom, having only viewed a couple photos.

I may post the photo when I have the chance... and see what the consensus is.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I feel kinda bad Mary's not around.
This whole book discussion idea, was hers in the first place.

katie8753 said...

>>>Bobby said: I should have read this before i sent that link lol. there is a lifetime of info on that site.

i was having fun talking about charlies mom's cady.>>>

Bobby I wonder if her caddy looked like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqDjnlDp6Bs&feature=related

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: I feel kinda bad Mary's not around.
This whole book discussion idea, was hers in the first place.>>>

I do too.

Mary, come join us!!

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: Someone recently sent me a photo.
The photo clearly depicts the "family" standing in the halls of the courthouse.
With them, is a nicely dressed woman, whom the person who sent me the photo... believes could be Manson's Mother.

I viewed the photo, and also believe this is possible.
I'm not an expert on Manson's Mom, having only viewed a couple photos.

I may post the photo when I have the chance... and see what the consensus is.>>

Wow that's really interesting. I had no idea his mother was even there. That's certainly worth posting!

St. Circumstance said...

Processing is also Not a commonly used Scientology term- auditing is...

Auditing is there form of confession- they get hooked up to " E- meters" which are crude versions of lie detectors, and they get asked questions, until the " auditor" feels they are being truthful... a " Floating needle"

what most Scientologists dont know is that these sessions are usually taped, so when they wish to leave- they realize there inner- most secrets are being used against them as blackmail... This happens all the time- and is why John Travolta has never left...

L Ron used to write for Science fiction mags, and that is where he first started advertising Dianetics.. This book became the basis for Scientology, and was a best seller. You could argue it is there most important book, but there philosophies have changed over the years with the times- dianteics would seem very outdated in its in initial form today..

But you can't understate its importance- although He went under once after Dianetics was published, and before he hit it really big- if that book didn't do what it did- he never developed into what he became...

I know that sanders called it processing, and maybe early on a few poeple used that term- but Auditing is the most widely used name for the process they use- and most likely what Charlie did in Jail was Auditing.. After a certain amount of this you become " clear" and supposedly Charlie did this- although nowadays you would never be allowed to make that claim if trained outside of COS, or outside o one of there buildings...

Alot of Sanders information is second or third hand- you will see that as you go through his book- alot of his references are not accurate by what we know today, and he leaves alot to the imagination when he has a feeling but cant prove it- he makes many innuendos...

Sceintologists keep records and numbers in order of every person who ever made it to clear- every one- so there would have been some record of Charlie had he any certified training- more likely he got second hand information from fellow inmates who had some exposure themselves...

Like everything else- we will never get a straight answer from Charlie- and they would never admit to an association like that- so it will join the other open ended questions of this case :)

bobby said...

St. Thank you. That was well said. I never heard how they hooked people by recording session's. Man that would really suck if someone had a couple of my confessions on tape.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Wow Saint...
That's quite a read.

You get my vote for most informative post yet.

You covered all the bases.
I don't have a come-back, other than... "I learned a lot".

You obviously know a LOT about this subject.
Thanks for taking the time to share all that information with us.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bob said>>>
"Man that would really suck if someone had a couple of my confessions on tape".

Jeez... ain't that the truth.
Sounds like joining is easy... and leaving is the hard part.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint...

Is Scientology ultimately about money?
I mean... do they fleece their members?
What's the motivation for those who operate and promote this religion?
Is it really all "good-will based"?
...or is there an alterior motive?

From the black-mail angle... one would be led to believe... there is an underlying... less than up-standing motive here.

St. Circumstance said...

You can go to a great site called " operation clambake" the name is explained there- it has every book and all the essays on the site for a free read... There are hundreds of stories about disconnection...

they force families to stop seeing each other if one member leaves the church- it is heartbreaking to read... it has been going on for decades and still does- many testimonials and true articles about the whole mess- and yes it is all about money- and they have tons and tons of it...- cash stockpiles all over the world- they buy up whole towns with cash under assumed names- very scary stuff- and unlike the Myth of Manson- this is real and happening right under our noses- it is a fascinating story and unreal that it happens in our times- but it still does...

St. Circumstance said...

just to show you how real it is..

They placed undercover operatives in the IRS, and were secretly recording and copying all the IRS info on the church, and dirt on the heads of the IRS- 11 high ranking members including Hubbard s wife went to jail when they were found out..

Years later- when Hubbard died the new CEO Dave Miscavige- walked into the IRS headquarters unannoucned- and left with complete Tax exemption for the ' church"- they have that kind of power..

If you ever watch Fox news- you know Greta Van Susteren- her husband is a top ranking Scientologist- and he was behind Sara palins campaign - they were that close to the white house...

very scary indeed

St. Circumstance said...

the ironic part is I came across hubbard while reading about Kenneth anger lol- hubbard was a satanist for a time before he made it big...

operation Clambake points out alot of similarities between Scientology and the devil worship- there is an old tape where hubbard calls Alister Crowley his friend during a lecture- and a lot of there Symbols and systems are very simliar... it is all illustrated and laid out on the site along with many great articles, and books weather you want a short version or the whole sordid story...

Operation clambake - great sight- youll read all night once you get started- it is jsut impossible this happens in our country today...

St. Circumstance said...

From clambake :

Hubbard had clear connections to the occult. Even in the first publication of dianetics in "Astounding Science Fiction", Hubbard in explaining how he did his "research" into what the mind was doing, says he used "automatic writing, speaking and clairvoyance"27 to discover what the mind's memory banks were doing. Automatic writing is an occult method of communicating with the spirit world, although psychologists consider its products to arise from subconscious thoughts of the writer. Whichever is correct, it is hardly a method used by competent scientific researchers.

St. Circumstance said...

Hubbard's connection to the occultist Aleister Crowley is quite clear and noteworthy. Crowley called himself the Anti-Christ, the Beast of Revelations, and 666. Russell Miller has adequately chronicled Hubbard's connection in 1945 to John W. Parsons, who headed Crowley's Ordo Templi Orientis chapter in Los Angeles.28 Hubbard was an active member in this group for several months, and first met his second wife there. The Church of Scientology claims that Hubbard was actually infiltrating this group in order to break it up, but the following should suffice to dismiss this claim.

St. Circumstance said...

In the Philadelphia Doctorate Course lectures taped in 1952, Hubbard discusses occult magic of the middle ages, and recommends a current book - "it's fascinating work in itself, and that's work written by Aleister Crowley, the late Aleister Crowley, my very good friend."29 The book recommended was The Master Therion, (published in London in 1929) later re-released as Magick in Theory and Practise. L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. asserts that during the time when the Philadelphia course was given his father would read Crowley's works "in preparation for the next day's lecture..."30

There are interesting similarities between Crowley's writings and the teachings of Hubbard. Dianetics' Time Track, in which every incident in a person's life is chronologically recorded in full in the mind, is quite similar to Crowley's Magical Memory. The Magical Memory is developed over time until "memories of childhood reawaken"31 which were previously forgotten, and memories of previous incarnations are recalled as well. Hubbard gives examples in the Philadelphia Doctorate Course of several people remembering lives earlier on earth, some up to a million years ago. The similarity between the Magical Memory and Time Track, then, is that they both can recall every past incident in a person's life, they both can recall incidents from past lives, and they both must be developed by certain techniques in order to make use of them.

St. Circumstance said...

Both Hubbard and Crowley consider it important to have the person recall his or her birth. "Having allowed the mind to return for some hundred times to the hour of birth, it should be encouraged to endeavour to penetrate beyond that period"32 (Crowley). "After twenty runs through birth, the patient experienced a recession of all somatics and 'unconsciousness' and aberrative content." "Thus there was no inhibition about looking earlier than birth for what Dianetics had begun to call basic-basic"33 (Hubbard).

Both Hubbard and Crowley are avowedly anti-psychiatry. "Official psychoanalysis is therefore committed to upholding a fraud... psychoanalysts have misinterpreted life, and announced the absurdity that every human being is essentially an anti-social, criminal, and insane animal"34 (Crowley). Hubbard considered that psychiatry controlled most of society and was struggling to create their own 1984 world.35

Hubbard36 and Crowley both posit the ability of the person to leave his or her body at times. Crowley states that the way to learn to leave your body is to mock up a body like your own in front of your physical body. Eventually you will learn to leave your physical body with your "astral body" and travel and view at will without physical restrictions.37 Hubbard teaches the same, and his method of "exteriorization" is to tell the person to "have preclear mock up own body"38, which will send the person outside his body.

Both Crowley39 and Hubbard40 use an equilateral triangle pointing up in a circle as one of their group's symbols. Both use Volume 0 instead of Volume 1 to begin enumerating their works. One could go on for quite some time listing the similarities between Crowley's and Hubbard's theories and writings, but for more the reader is encouraged to look for him or herself.

In Crowley's Organization are several grade levels. To reach the Grade of Adeptus Exemptus "The Adept must prepare and publish a thesis setting forth His knowledge of the Universe, and his proposals for its welfare and progress. He will thus be known as the leader of a school of thought."41 It is apparent that Hubbard has fulfilled this requirement.

St. Circumstance said...

this is jsut one example of what i learned about this fraud on operation Clambake- it is very interesting stuff- and if you have ever seen the tom cruise indoctrination vidoe they show new recruits- ( it is also on the site)- you will see the darkness much clearer- the new CEO of Scientology is dave miscavige- he was tom Cruises best man at his wedding....

bobby said...

St. Are the Palin's scientologist ?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint said>>>>

"Unlike the Myth of Manson- this is real and happening right under our noses"

"If you ever watch Fox news- you know Greta Van Susteren- her husband is a top ranking Scientologist- and he was behind Sara palins campaign - they were that close to the white house...
very scary indeed"

Wow.
It's large-scale organized crime, in sheep's clothing.

Hubbard seems to have stolen much from Crowley, and morphed it slightly for his own gain.
"Devil Worship" in sheep's clothing as well

St. Circumstance said...

Not that I am aware of - but her Political Advisor is her most important influence- and he is big time!!

they actually get rewarded for bringing in new members who are in influential positions- L-Ron stressed the importance of it... it has always been a very big deal to them...

Do you remember how many people couldnt figure out what Lisa Marie wanted with Michael Jackson??

she now lives in England right near the mai9n headquaters over there in East Grimstead- she has always been a very hard core member...

make more sense now???

St. Circumstance said...

Its crazy stuff- more so cause its real

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I'm gonna check-out "Operation Clam Bake" further, when I have a chance.

These Scientologists seem to target folks who have something to offer... whether it be money, influence, fame, intelligence or all four.
You gotta wonder how interested they'd be in recruiting the local gas station attendant.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Jeez...
I assumed they went after high-profile folks... and as I was typing, you said the same thing.

St. Circumstance said...

lets jsut leave the subject like this-

Lron hubbard died alone and in hiding- not even his family new where he was... he was barred from most European countries, and was wanted here at the time of his death..

He was a very bad person, and his entire organization was built on taking advantage of people who were in it to help others.. people join that org to " save the planet" and get a better sense of self being- it is tragic they end up brainwahsed zombies who work slave labor for less than minimum wage...

I have read literally hundreds of personal accounts of life in COS...

I have read that the FBI is finally looking into the work/ labor violations - and here is hoping they finally get theres- and people get there family and lives back :)

St. Circumstance said...

Sorry for the side track :)

Back to charlie lol

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint... as I said... I've only known one Scientologist... but even at that... it sounds all too familiar.

My friend Jay's father, was a very wealthy man.
His dad owned a chain of probably 15 local grocery stores.
There must have been money in the family before that as well... as they lived really posh.
His dad is actually the one who first introduced the "UPC" label on packaging.

Jay was a fairly successful musician.
He was contacted by Frank J Russo in the 80's, and his band played back-up for "The Tubes"... at large venues back then.

He became a Scientologist... and everything went down the shitter.

Jay started traveling an hour almost every day, into the city, to work for COS.
I have no idea what the f#ck he did there... but, I know they paid him little to nothing.
His wife... sick of seeing him leave at 6am... and come home at 7pm... with no money to show for it...couldn't stand all that stuff, and all the folks associated with it.
She left him, and took their son with her.

He's pissed through all his money on this hysteria.

Seems like the most shameless scam in the world to me.

Hopefully, as you say...
the FBI will finally sort this out.

If the founder of your group, has to go into hiding... that's usually a really bad sing. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Sorry... bad "sign".

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint... it's not a side-tarck.

Honestly, I've learned more from this conversation, than most of the Manson conversations combined.

Besides... "devil worship", "scientology", the "process church", "the masons", "satanists"... and all these "alternative" philosopihes... are all inter-woven into this Manson topic, again and again anyway.

It's good to have at least an introductory understanding of these groups.

St. Circumstance said...

Songs that made the hit parade...

guys like us we had it made...

St. Circumstance said...

exactly - that is how I wondered into the whole thing- reading more Manson sidebar stuff- it is all connected. The Process Church of final judgment- who Sanders is so convinced were in cahoots with Charlie - was founded by two high level Scientologists- who split off to start there own group- ( Robert and Maryann Degrimston)

by the way get ready to the first Process reference on page 23 lol - the guy I am talking about is the blond haired English cult guy sanders is talking about- and Circe ( his wife) is mentioned later

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

The way my week is going, it may be a little while before I get past page 22 (LOL)... but, I KNOW it's coming. LOL

Thanks for the heads-up! : )

katie8753 said...

Hi everybody! I'm back in my "old Sadie skin". HA HA.

I'm trying to read thru all the info, just skimming for now, it's a lot to encompass.

Circumstance, thanks for explaining "auditing". Boy, if Charlie got "audited" now... hoo hoo!!

"Charlie, if you try to leave the church.........(finger wagging). HA HA.

>>Cirumstance said: Do you remember how many people couldnt figure out what Lisa Marie wanted with Michael Jackson??

she now lives in England right near the mai9n headquaters over there in East Grimstead- she has always been a very hard core member...

make more sense now???>>>

It amazes me how many big hollywood stars are into this crap. Travolta, Cruise, Presley, that girl on Cheers that got fat (can't think of her name, haha).

I'm sure they go after folks with money. "White trash need not apply". LOL.

katie8753 said...

I'm wondering if this Scientology was big in 1969 with the Hollywood elite.

Were any of the victims involved in this?

Are we onto a new connection???

Does anyone think that maybe the hits were ordered by L. Ron Hubbard??? Maybe somebody wanted out?

Wow! This is mind-boggling!!!

St. Circumstance said...

kirstie alley is on my TV right now lol my wife watches dancing with the stars..

there are many Manson- Scientology connections- in fact Clambake has a whole section on it...

there were Scientology students killed that many feel Bruce Davis was involved with- Daureen Gaul- you will get to her in Sanders book...

also- when Joel Pugh was killed- it was in England- and Bruce was there working for the COS at that time..

This is from Bugs book...

According to unconfirmed reports, Doreen Gaul was a former girl friend of Manson Family member Bruce Davis, himself an ex-Scientologist.

Davis' whereabouts at the times of the murders of Sharp, Gaul and Jane Doe 59 are not known. He disappeared shortly after being questioned in connection with the death of Zero.

On December 1, 1969, Joel Dean Pugh, husband of Family member Sandy Good, was found with his throat slit in a London hotel room. As noted, local police ruled the death a suicide. On learning of Pugh's demise, Inyo County DA Frank Fowles made official inquiries, specifically asking Interpol to check visas to detrmine if one Bruce Davis was in England at the time.

St. Circumstance said...

the answer was yes he was lol- he was last reported working in England for guess who??

The COS- but he was fired for drugs..

and then Pugh was dead... so

he went back to charlie-

makes sense- or many coincidences and uncanny timing

katie8753 said...

Thanks Circumstance. I knew about Joel Pugh, and I really think that Bruce was involved. That was not a suicide.

I was just wondering how deep the others were into Scientology.

Tex, Sadie, Katie, Leslie, etc.

Were they indoctrinated?

I know they had smithers here and there about "come to now", etc., but how deeply were they into it??

I had read about Bruce, but not about anyone else.

I'm really curious now how much this Scientology played into HTLB.

WOW!! Are we onto something here!! LOL.

Oh yeah, Kirstie Alley, the fat girl. Maybe she can give them some earnings off her new reality show. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Jeez...

I really have to check out this clambake site... specifically the section concerning ties to Manson.

As Katie said...
this is kinda mind-boggling.
Organized crime, under the guise of religion.

It all makes sense.
When you're in the business of swindling money, political and IRS dealings, and crime... (to the extent that the originator has to hide from even his own family)...
it's not much of a reach to believe things will deteriorate into deaths.
Ironically, the same story as Manson.
Enough crime, eventually leads to deaths... whether it be cover-up, pay-back, revenge, or profit.

I was always beating down the door of Frank Carbo and the Italian mafia, regarding LaBianca.
AC, always told me... right idea... wrong group.
Maybe it's this COS group.

Real organized crime, under the guise of a religion. LOLOL
Wow...

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd/Circumstance: Is there any merit to this?

All of the sudden it makes perfect sense!

I know that Bruce was staying in the Scientology building in England when Joel was killed.

Also when Zero played "Russian Roulette".

I'm serious guys.

Let's put our heads together. This may be a breakthrough.

I've NEVER heard this discussed before.

If this Scientology is as insidious as it sounds, in 1969 it was infantile, but now, it's grandious.

Threatening politicians and high powered movie stars!!!

Bears thinking about!!

Thanks Circumstance, for your input!!!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said>>>
"Boy, if Charlie got "audited" now... hoo hoo!!

"Charlie, if you try to leave the church.........(finger wagging). HA HA".

ROFLMFAO... LOLOL

I'd pay admission to see Manson's audit performed.
You could probably sell-out a stadium of people viewing jumbo-tron, every friday evening for two months, until that audit was completed.
Better yet... they could televise it inter-nationally. LOLOL

Problem is...
I don't think the needle would ever float with Charlie. LOL

Katie...
I think CM's got bigger problems, than trying to leave the church. LOL
I doubt he's got much they want (at this point) anyway.
Prolly not a huge need for acoustic guitars, and string scorpions, in the 2011 crime underworld. LOLOL

Katie...
You're definitely the funniest! LOL

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: I'd pay admission to see Manson's audit performed.
You could probably sell-out a stadium of people viewing jumbo-tron, every friday evening for two months, until that audit was completed.
Better yet... they could televise it inter-nationally. LOLOL

Problem is...
I don't think the needle would ever float with Charlie. LOL

Katie...
I think CM's got bigger problems, than trying to leave the church. LOL
I doubt he's got much they want (at this point) anyway.
Prolly not a huge need for acoustic guitars, and string scorpions, in the 2011 crime underworld. LOLOL>>>

HA HA. Lynyrd you never know!! I'd pay admission too!!

"Okay, Charlie, let's start with July 26, 1969."

HA HA HA.

If the Church of Scientology put the numbers down, they might realize that if they ever blew the lid off this case, they might be sitting on a gold mine. (Robert and Maryann Degrimston)???

It would be the biggest fissure they've seen in California history!!

The movies, books, Sundance, noveau rich, sunglasses, bleached hair, big boobs.....ha ha.. I digress.

Think about it...won't you!! HA HA.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said>>>
"if they ever blew the lid off this case, they might be sitting on a gold mine.
It would be the biggest fissure they've seen in California history"!!

AHahahahaha
Try as I might, I can never beat you with humor! LOL

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: AHahahahaha
Try as I might, I can never beat you with humor! LOL>>>

Buenos noches mi amigo. Dulce sueƱos.

bobby said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc_wjp262RY&feature=related

Tom C & Matt Lauer. Pretty interesting conversation.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Bob!

That was interesting.
Tom is passionate about this stuff... bordering on angry.

katie8753 said...

>>>Bobby said: Tom C & Matt Lauer. Pretty interesting conversation.>>

Thanks Bobby.

Boy I'm not sure if it's worth $2,000,000 to be married to him. LOL.

I think Matt was on the verge of decking him!!

Shak El said...

Just because Bruce Davis was in the area does not mean he killed or "suicided" anyone. Joel's family believed from the beginning it was a suicide and went to the area/talked to authorities and was satisfied. They didn't even know about the homicide angle til H.S. came out in 74. If you read the Simon Wells bio of CM he really settles this issue

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello Shak El... and Welcome!

I'm gonna move your comment, up to the top thread, so folks will find it.

Peace...