Tuesday, June 1, 2021

Who Was Steven Parent?

I ran across this on You Tube.  I found it very interesting.  Scott Michaels with Dearly Departed Tours talks about Steven Parent's life and ultimate death on Cielo Drive.


It mentions the fact that Parent was suspected to be gay, and that he also might have been killed last instead of first.  I know there are lots of people who think this.  

Lots to talk about!


113 comments:

katie8753 said...

Hey Sunset I was going to post Scott Michael's website address on the thread but I can't seem to find the website. Can you have a look and see what you come up with? Thanks!

katie8753 said...

I don't know if the kid was gay or not, but I don't think the fact that he took a clock/radio to Garrettson's was a sign of "gayness". I think he really wanted to sell a clock/radio. He was trying to make money for college. And the fact that he showed up late at night means nothing. He just got off work. And maybe he was a "night owl". Some people just get started at night.

We know he brought the clock/radio in to show Garrettson. And we know he took it when he left. That shows the impetus of the clock/radio. It wasn't a "prop". It was a selling tool.

katie8753 said...

Finally, I don't know when he was killed, but the killers all say he was killed first.

All of them.

Which doesn't mean that they all tell the truth, but I can't imagine them being smart enough to get together after the murders and make a pact trying to say that Parent was killed first, just in case they were questioned. And why would that matter anyway? Dead is dead. Does it matter to the killers who got killed first?

katie8753 said...

And Tex Watson wants to get out of prison. He nailed a young guy who was just starting his life, among others, and he thinks he deserves a 2nd chance. HA HA HA!

sunset77 said...

Katie, I'm not really sure who "Scott Michael's" is. There was a "Scott Michael's" that did "Dearly Departed Tours" I guess in LA at one time. That website says it's "permanently closed". Here is a link to that Dearly Departed Tours

Also, I think Steve Parent was killed first for a number of reasons. One of them is because Atkins said Watson's gun was broken in the melee in the house, and Watson told her it didn't work anymore. The gun was later found broken. Steven Parent had gunshot wounds to his body. If the gun was broken, Watson wouldn't have been able to shoot him with it. I haven't really looked into this, but I seriously doubt Steven Parent was killed last. As you said, all the killers were in agreement on this, and I don't think any of them has ever changed their story on this issue.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset. Good point about the gun being broken. I had forgotten about that. How could Tex shoot Parent last if the gun was broken?

I think people are basing this theory on the fact that the fence was broken and there was evidence on Parent's car that shows that he backed into it, supposedly because he saw Tex killing people. Parent might have backed into the fence by accident before he even saw Tex, maybe because he wasn't paying attention to what he was doing.

sunset77 said...

Watson might have attacked Parent while the car was in the fence. Parent might have pulled his car out of the fence with Watson standing in front of the car, and then Watson attacked him. Parent's car might have backed into the fence after he was dead.The foot on his dead body might have pushed the accelerator while the car was in reverse. I think I read somewhere once, one of the killers said they pushed Parent's car out of the fence before they left, but I don't remember exactly where I read that and I doubt if I could find it again.

It seems to me that more than one of the killers said Watson got in front of Parent's car as it came down the drive way and said "Halt" before he attacked him, and before Watson cut the window screen and entered the house. I guess Watson, Kasabian and Krenwinkel are all still alive, were there, and probably know exactly what happened. Exactly what happened I guess is "unclear". The knife and gunshot wounds to Parent's body are apparent from his autopsy though.

Every single version of the attack I've ever heard of though, involves Watson and the 3 girls climbing over the fence, attacking Steven Parent in the driveway, and then entering the main house.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset! I agree with you. I think that Parent was attacked first. He was backing out to leave the property at the same time Tex & girls came on the property. I'm sure that someone waving a gun and knife and saying "halt" might make him back into a fence.

We have no idea how long it was between Parent backing up and Parent seeing Tex. We also have no idea exactly where Parent parked when he first got to Cielo Drive. We only know it was in the parking area. It could have been anywhere in that parking area, which is a large area.

I've added a picture of Parent's car to the thread. Tex said that after he killed Parent, he physically pushed the car "out of the way" so it wouldn't be noticed. You can see by the photo where the car ended up.

The bottom line of this case is this: all we have to go by is what the killers say what happened, who did what, who said what, etc. because the victims can't talk anymore. But to know the truth, we have to go by the physical evidence, i.e., photos, blood stains, fingerprints, etc.

If you look at how Parent's car ended up, and if Tex is telling the truth about pushing it back, Parent must have been near the gate when he was attacked. That parking area is pretty big. And his car was pushed back to around that garage area.

katie8753 said...

This is one of those cases that you can read between the lines and come up with all kinds of reasons why this and that happened.

I've been following the George Reeves case for a long time now and it's the same thing. The police ruled it a suicide, but there is compelling evidence that it was not a suicide but a homocide. Way too many things that don't add up.

Same thing with this case. You can think you solved the Cielo Drive murders, but when you get to the LaBianca murders, everything runs into a blank wall.

The difference between the Cielo Drive murders and the LaBianca murders is that Charlie drove the 2nd night.

That's the difference.

The first night, Tex said that Charlie ordered it. The 2nd night Charlie drove and ordered it.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah!

sunset77 said...

There are photos of the damaged fence at the Tate house. Whether Steven Parent's car even caused that damage or not, I don't know. It's possible I guess that Parent backed into that fence when he first got there, before he even got to Garretson's, or I suppose it's possible someone else caused that damage. Here is how Watson describes Parent's murder in his book "Will You Die For Me"--

"We had barely gotten over the gate when there was the sound of a car, and headlights loomed at the top of the driveway, heading toward us. I told the girls to get into the bushes, lie down, and be quiet. The driver of the car had to stop and roll down his window to push the button for the automatic gate, and as he did so I stepped forward out of the shadows, gun in right hand, knife in left, commanding him to halt. A terrified teenage boy looked up at me, his glasses flashing. He was Steven Parent. Much later I would learn he had been visiting a groundskeeper, William Garretson, who lived in a guest cottage behind the main house and pool, a cottage we never discovered in the rampage that followed. (It would actually be some time before I learned the names of our victims. That night and the night after, they were so many impersonal blobs to be dealt with as Charlie had instructed. To make what follows as clear as possible, however, the victims' names will be used.

As I lunged forward the boy cried out: “Please...please, don't hurt me. I'm your friend...I won't tell.” I shot him four times and at some point struck out with the knife, slashing at the left arm he raised to shield his face. After he had slumped back across the seat I reached in the window, cutting the motor and lights before I pushed the car part of the way back up the driveway where it would be less visible from the private road."

I had always assumed the killers had climbed over the fence beside the gate. After reading this for about the 20th time, I just noticed Watson said they climbed over the gate. It appears the gate was made out of chain link fence, when we were kids in the 1960's we used to climb over chain link fences all the time. I would guess the killers were well experienced at climbing over chain link fences.

Watson says he pushed the car "part of the way back up the driveway" If he pushed it "up" the driveway and left the car in neutral, it's possible the car drifted back down the hill and hit the fence after the killers had moved on. I had a straight stick car I left in neutral once when I parked outside of our house. When I came out, the car was "gone". It had rolled about 40 yards down our driveway, across a dirt road, and maybe 10 yards into a field with weeds and trees. After about 5 minutes of looking, I could barely see the top of the car sticking up above the weeds.

starviego said...

sunset77 said...
"....Atkins said Watson's gun was broken in the melee in the house, and Watson told her it didn't work anymore. The gun was later found broken."

I think the timeline was Tex shooting Fry, then beating him over the head with the revolver, then him shooting Sebring, then the weapon was test fired later by the investigators. So it doesn't sound like the gun was disabled.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starviego. If memory serves, I'm pretty sure that Jay Sebring got shot first when he objected to Sharon Tate being told to "lie down". This was before Voytek jumped off the couch and tried to run, and Tex beat his head to a pulp with the gun. And also the handle broke off and it was later found in the house.

I don't know about investigators firing the gun later. Let me check that out and get back to you or if you want to, send me a link about that! Thanks!

Dilligaf said...

As I recall, the barrel on the buntline was bent as a result of using it in a club like fashion. This would have rendered the weapon incapable of firing safely as the bullet, when discharged would have been incapable of exiting the barrel, causing an explosion.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Dill!

jessie SX said...

Parent tried to make a run for it but he didn’t get very far.

starviego said...


katie8753 said...
"... I'm pretty sure that Jay Sebring got shot first"

Whoops, I think you are right on that. But they apparently were able to test-fire the gun, according to Helter Skelter:

Bugliosi, pg247
".... After test-firing the gun, Lee placed the test bullets and the Tate bullets under a comparison microscope."

So the "Parent shot last" theory is still valid!

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starviego. That's on page 269 on my copy of Helter Skelter, copyright 1974. Maybe we have different versions.

I still doubt that Parent was shot last. Like I said before, all of the killers have said that Parent was shot first. Why would all of them lie about that when it doesn't benefit them in any way. It doesn't make them look less guilty.

And if Voytek & Abigail ran out on the lawn screaming their heads off, don't you think Parent would have heard that? Doesn't it make more sense that if he witnessed that massacre that he would have stayed in the Guest House with the door locked? I know Garrettson said he didn't hear anything, but I don't believe him.

And if he was already on his way to his car, don't you think he would have had plenty of time to get in and drive off? From the guest house to the parking lot is probably only about 50 to 75 yards. And the police report indicates that Parent's window was down when he was shot. Why would he roll it down if he had seen Tex bashing people's heads in and ripping them up? Why not leave it rolled up?

Do you really think that Tex had time to tackle Frykowski, beat him, shoot him, stab him for about 10 minutes, then run over and finish off Abigail, then run to the parking lot and stop Parent?

I'm sorry, I just don't think Parent was killed last.

katie8753 said...

Hey Beauders, what do you think of this "Parent killed last theory"?

Also, what do you think of Flo's and Paris' outfits today. Flo's outfit looked like something they forgot to finish. Reminds me of the 3 stooges when Curly had a suit on that was just basted and it kept ripping off. And Paris' outfit reminded me of something you would buy at a garage sale. Hideous!

starviego said...

The two Bel Air Security guards heard three shots at about the 3:30-4am timeline. Both Sebring and Fry were shot indoors. Would the guards likely have heard shots fired inside or outside the house? Plus an eyewitness recently claimed to have seen Tex plus three others drive through the area at about 3:30am.

The whole version as told by the killers is all messed up, if you ask me.

starviego said...

" And the police report indicates that Parent's window was down when he was shot. Why would he roll it down"

As hot as it was that night, couldn't he have had the window rolled down the whole time?

katie8753 said...

Well Starviego, as I said before, there are a lot of details about this case that don't seem to add up. Random people who claim to have heard gunshots or claim to have seen the killers anywhere from midnight to 4:00am may be telling the truth or just making stuff up. Kind of like all of the people who claim to have been invited to a party at Cielo Drive that night, but the truth is there was no party. Just a bunch of losers making that up to try to get their names in the paper.

Physical evidence is a lot more important than "hearsay".

I think the fact that the clock radio showed 12:15am when it was found in Parent's car is important. I think that he took that clock radio in Garrettson's house, plugged it in to prove it worked, then unplugged it at 12:15 when he left the guest house to head for his car. That puts his time of death between 12:15 and 12:30am.

Voytek, Gibby & Parent all had about the same liver temperature and rigor mortis affects. That means they were all killed around the same time. I think all the murders happened somewhere between 12:15am and 12:45am.

Starviego, do you think Charlie went back to Cielo Drive? And maybe he was responsible for the gun shots and yelling people claim to have heard around 4:30am?

katie8753 said...

Don't get me started on the blood pools on the front porch. It appears that Jay & Sharon's bodies were moved to the porch, then moved back to the living room. But there is nothing to support this theory, other than the blood pools.

But, it's hard to ignore the physical evidence....

starviego said...

"How the News of Sharon Tate's Death at the Hands of the Manson Family Spread Through Hollywood" is the title of an article in the May 2019 issue of Town & Country magazine.

They had this account, which I found interesting:

www.townandcountrymag.com/leisure/arts-and-culture/a26932479/manson-family-murders-sharon-tate-death-explained-reactions/
Richard Correll (director):
I was a senior at USC and was helping Harold Lloyd preserve his films at his Beverly Hills estate. Harold knew I was dating his granddaughter Suzanne, but he didn’t know I often parked my car at the lower end of the property late at night and snuck back into the house so Sue and I could have several hours of fun together. As usual, it was about 3:30 in the morning when I left. Everything was so quiet at that hour. I was about to turn right onto Benedict Canyon when I heard and then saw a car driven by a man with long hair, what looked like another man in the passenger seat, and a couple of young women in the back. Their windows were down, music was blaring, and they were carry­ing on so loudly I thought they must be drunk college kids. They were no more than 10 feet in front of me.” .... It wasn’t until later that Saturday, when I heard about the murders, that I thought about that carload of kids again, but I figured murderers would quietly leave the scene of their crimes, not carry on like they were having a party. And besides, if I went to the police I would have to tell Harold I had been there with Sue, and I wasn’t about to do that. It wasn’t until months later, when Tex Watson was arrested, that I knew. There was no question he was the guy I saw driving the car.”

starviego said...

katie8753 said...
"Voytek, Gibby & Parent all had about the same liver temperature and rigor mortis affects. That means they were all killed around the same time."

What about Sharon and Jay? Where does the info about time of death originate? Autopsy reports or trial testimony? (I'd like to check it out myself)

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starviego. Interesting article. I wonder what man he saw in the passenger seat. Tex says Linda was driving until they stopped to wash off with the hose. That was on Portola, off Benedict Canyon. If Richard Correll was driving down Cielo towards Benedict Canyon and saw the car, I'm assuming that the driver would have been Linda at that point. Not sure exactly where he's talking about.

The liver temps and rigor mortis measurements are in the First Tate Homicide Report. Liver temp and rigor are just one way of determining time of death. Parent, Gibby & Voytek's were higher than Jay's and Sharon's because they were found outside and the temperature outside was 94 degrees. The temp in the house was 83 degrees.

Parent's liver temp was 92, Voytek's 90 & Gibby's was 92. Sharon and Jay's liver temps were lower, because they were in the house. Sharon's was 82 and Jay's was 83. I don't think they took the baby's temp.

katie8753 said...

Let me clarify what I said above. Correll said he saw a man driving and a man in the passenger seat. I'm assuming he means there were 2 men in the car. Again, I'm not sure exactly where he's talking about. I think he means the intersection of Cielo Drive and Benedict Canyon.

katie8753 said...

Starviego, if Rudy Weber says Tex & the girls stopped at his house at 1am to use his water hose after the killings, how could they still be killing people at Cielo Drive between 3:00 to 4:30am??

http://www.cielodrive.com/updates/rudolf-weber-robert-calkins-12-29-69/

starviego said...

I think they returned to the scene of the crime, not just Charlie.

katie8753 said...

Why do you think that?

beauders said...

I think that Parent was killed first. There is no need to lie. Lying would not benefit anyone. I think Manson and others went back to the Tate house. Again why say you went back if you didn't, there is no benefit for anyone to make this stuff up. Katie I am very surprised by the bad fashion in B&B as its a show about high fashion.

katie8753 said...

I agree Beauders. Why lie about the order of killing? Killing is killing, whether you killed first or last. Doesn't make you less guilty. That whole theory is ridiculous. I think it's based on a broken fence. Silly.

I think Manson went back to Cielo with Pittman. I DON'T think that Tex and the girls went back. None of them have ever said that, and I don't believe it.

People have been studying this case for over 50 years. I think that some people are so tired of looking at the facts, that they make up new facts to generate interest. Either that or to satisfy theories that don't make sense. The next version that comes out in a few years will be that the victims survived. LOL.

B&B is a fashion house, yet their 5 employees wear stuff that looks like it was rejected by homeless folks.

I think Sally Spectra is coming back!

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

Interesting article

Hmmm....
I think there have been a lot of fame whores that seem to think it is some kind of badge of honour to have attached themselves to the case and to intimate that they have some kind of specialist insider knowledge.
It reminds me of....horoscopes ! Just from a point of view of pure logic, there are numerous horoscopes published every day in magazines, papers etc, throughout the world ~ yet they never match up. All the people that were supposed to be at Cielo that night or that imply some secret knowledge that puts them out front can't all be right, so most of their stories can be filed under 'forgettable' {or more appropriately, 'forget it'}.

I wonder what man he saw in the passenger seat

Richard Correll's story seems rather fanciful to me. Driving past a car with 4 people in it at 3.30am in the dark after some rumpy~pumpy, are we to honestly believe that he would notice for that split second, in such detail, the people so as to be able to identify them 3 to 4 months later ? And what kind of murderers would be blaring music at that hour after committing murder ? I know the Family marched to a different drum, but they weren't about drawing attention to themselves in the immediate aftermath of murder !

Tex says Linda was driving until they stopped to wash off with the hose

Linda was steering, not driving. According to the court testimony:

Q. by MR.BUGLIOSI: Did Tex, Sadie and Katie eventually come to the car?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. How long after you arrived at the car, did they come to the car?

A. Just a few moments.

Q. Did they come back together or separately?

A. Together.

Q. Did they have any blood on them?

A. Yes.

Q. All three of them?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened after they arrived back at the car?

A. Well, I had started the car, and Tex came over and told me to turn the car off and to push over, and he seemed really uptight because I had run to the car.

Q. Did all of you eventually get in the car?

A. Yes.

Q. Who got behind the driver's seat?

A. Tex.

Q. And where did you sit in the car?

A. In the passenger seat.

Q. What about Sadie and Katie?

A. In the back seat.

Q. Did Tex then drive off?

A. Yes.

Q. You say Tex was driving the car?

A. Yes.

Q. How did he change his clothing?

A. I held the driver's wheel as he took off his top, and he changed his pants later on.

Q. Did Tex say where he was driving the car?

A. They wanted to go and hose off the blood from their bodies.


I'm inclined to take what Tex says in his books with a mighty pinch of salt because it has seemed clear to me for many years now, that he has {indeed, had} very little genuine memory recall and that he repeats stuff that has already been in print for years ~ often {amusingly} complete with the original mistakes that were in the source he is cribbing from. It would be almost understandable if this was the case in his 1978 book but the same thing happens in his 2005 book "Right hand man speaks out" and if one looks at his last parole hearing, it's happening all over the shop there. Except this time, the DDA calls him out on it big time.
He even did it during his trial.
He's nothing if not consistent !

starviego said...

katie8753 said...
"The liver temps and rigor mortis measurements are in the First Tate Homicide Report"

The liver temps were worthless as far as determining time of death, is what I get from reading the autopsy reports. They just waited too long. The coroner Noguchi didn't even bother estimating the time of death for the Cielo Drive victims.

beauders said...

Katie I do like Wyatt’s suit today and yesterday on B&B. I like all the shades of green.

sunset77 said...

Off topic comment:

Home where Manson murders took place sells in California – after price reduction

katie8753 said...

I agree Grim. It seems very unlikely that someone could glance into a dark car at 3:30 in the morning and remember someone's face that clearly months later. Especially since there was no reason to remember it, since Correll didn't know about the murders yet. I don't believe that story.

Starviego, the liver temps indicate that the victims all died around the same time. I can't prove who died first or who died last, but neither can you.

Beauders I didn't notice Wyatt's suit color but he did look nice. Meanwhile Dollar Bill is issuing threats all around, even in jail. LOL.

Thanks Sunset, I read about that house selling recently. I think Leno bought that house from his mother in 1968. I can't remember what he paid for that house. Does anyone know?

I think Leno was making monthly payments to his mother. For all of his money earnings, I think Leno had some money problems. I know he was making payments on his boat.

I think the Cielo Drive house cost Rudy Altobelli $200,000.00. I know Sharon and Roman were paying $1,200.00/month rent on that house. That was a LOT of money back then!!!!

starviego said...

katie8753 said...
"Starviego, the liver temps indicate that the victims all died around the same time."

The corpses were all more or less at ambient temperature. 10-12 hours later, any liver is going to be at room temperature, no matter what time the vic died. (they only took the liver temp in the morgue at 2pm or so that afternoon)

-------------------

grimtraveller said...
"And what kind of murderers would be blaring music at that hour after committing murder?"

That's just it, this story is too weird to have been made up.

katie8753 said...

Starviego, it's my understanding they took the liver temps at the murder site between 9:00 and 10:00am, i.e., that's how they compared them to the outside temp and the inside house temp. How could they have done that at the morgue at 2pm?

Regardless, it doesn't prove who died first or last.

starviego said...

Katie,

Correction: From my reading of the autopsy reports, all the on scene initial takings of liver or rectal temps were from 2:30pm to 3:40pm. I think the first coroners were on scene at about 2pm, arriving an hour after the homicide detectives. So by this time all the bodies had reached ambient temp or near it.

https://coronertalk.com/28
The sooner after death the body is found, the more accurately time of death can be assessed by this method. Once the body reaches ambient temperature, all bets are off.

katie8753 said...

Well Starviego I guess there's no physical proof that Parent was killed first or last. We only have the testimony of ALL of the killers that Parent was killed first. And we don't have any testimony from ANYONE that Parent was killed last.

katie8753 said...

Soooo...you know....

katie8753 said...

Hey Beauders, what's going on with Justin? He locked Thomas up in a cage. What's up with that?

katie8753 said...

I'm assuming we're thru discussing the Manson case. LOL.

beauders said...

think Justin is going to try to take over Bill's business. He's acting like the shark he is.

beauders said...

Portland is going to have record heat starting tomorrow at 106, Sunday 111 and Monday 109. This is very bad for our wildfire season.

katie8753 said...

Wow that's hot!!! Is it humid there? That makes it feel hotter.

beauders said...

Too hot for. Katie the whole west coast has low humidity thank goodness.

beauders said...

Oops,too hot for me.

katie8753 said...

Do people in Portland even have air conditioners? You probably never even need them. Try to stand inside if you can or in the shade if you go outside. Drink lots of water!

katie8753 said...

There's a big consensus on Parent's glasses. That's just another weird twist on this case.

Were the glasses found by the trunks Parent's? They sure looked like them! Some people say they were dropped by Manson.

beauders said...

This is the hottest it’s ever been in Portland, ever. Do you all believe in climate change? We really feel it here, for those of you who believe. I think the glasses dropped by the trunks were brought by Manson again why claim it if you didn’t do it. The glasses don’t change anything so why lie about it. Katie I hate hot weather. It’s worst for me because the medication I take for my OCD make me hot and steamy all the time which is great for every season but summer. I feel about 10 degrees warmer than the average person. What is the weather like in your part of Texas, Katie?

katie8753 said...

Oh Beauders, the summers here are VERY hot and humid! Our summer usually starts in June and lasts until September. It depends on the year but we've had several years in a row that the temp gets up to the 100's and the heat index is around 110. On those days, we try to stay inside because the heat will really hurt you if you aren't used to it. It's the humidity that does you in.

This year we've been lucky. We've had quite a bit of rain so it cools things off. This week we're having lower temps and more chances of rain, which is a relief.

I'm not so sure I believe in climate change. I think that different states have different weather patterns, dating back 100 or more years ago.

I think it's odd that Parent's glasses weren't found. They should have been in the car with him. Unless someone took them. And I don't know why anyone would do that, given that they were on a murder mission, why bother with glasses?

Just hang in there, your hot weather pattern will change soon. Just make sure you drink plenty of water!

katie8753 said...

Also, I've read in some areas that claim that Tex told Linda to steal Parent's wallet. I'll have to research that. I don't remember Tex saying he told her to do that.

But on the other hand, they couldn't identify Parent's body at the scene of the crime, even though they could have traced the license plate back to his dad.

This was all just poor police work in my opinion.

starviego said...

katie8753 said...
"I think it's odd that Parent's glasses weren't found."

Wait, I thought they were still on his face when they found his body?

katie8753 said...

Well, does anyone know any more than that? I've been reading that Parent's glasses were missing. There was a pair of horn-rimmed glasses that were found by the trunks in the living room. People say Charlie threw them down there.

Let's talk about it!

BTW, "horn-rimmed"? Who thought that up? HA HA. That sounds like Clark Kent's glasses.

sunset77 said...

Like many things in this case, Steven Parent's glasses bring back a lot of memories for me. I first went to an optometrist when I was a very little kid. I was diagnosed with a "lazy eye". I was basically "cross eyed" in one eye. I remember the optometrist had me look in this viewer and tell if the picture was a man, a horse or a cow. I knew the man right off, but I was so little I didn't know the difference between a horse and a cow (I didn't live on a farm). When he showed the picture of either a horse or cow, I'd just guess either horse or cow. He'd say "Aw, you're just guessing". To this day I'd like to tell him what to do with his pictures of a horse and a cow.

I had to wear an eye patch over my lazy eye to try to improve it's muscles. I hated it, it gave me a headache. So I eventually got a pair of glasses with thick lenses similar to Steven Parent's. The thick lenses were sometimes referred to as "Coke bottle glasses" because the lenses resembled the thick glass bottom of a Coke bottle. Wikipedia says "horn rim" glasses were originally made from horn, (I guess animal horn) or tortoise shell, but for most of their history they have been made of thick plastic.

I don't know if Steven Parent's glasses were found in the car, (or outside of the car). If they were I suspect they were either returned to his family to be buried with him, or they might still be sitting in a police evidence locker somewhere. People that wear glasses like that are often known for their glasses, and often their glasses are buried with them. I don't think any of the killers took Parent's glasses, they would have had no reason to, and I've never heard any of them mention anyone taking them.

Apparently, there was a pair of similar glasses found near a travel trunk by police. I looked this up years ago. It seems to me the police went to great lengths trying to identify those glasses, contacting optometrists, possibly all across the country. I think it was determined they were not Steven Parent's glasses, but I don't think the owner was ever identified. I've often thought that they might have fallen out of the pocket of the delivery man that delivered the trunk/s. It was not common to lose your glasses back in those days, they were pretty expensive. There are many possibilities as to who those glasses belonged to. It's possible that whoever they belonged to didn't want to be identified. It would probably not be "good" to have your glasses show up at a mass murder scene, guilty or not. That's about as much as I know.

One final memory from the mid 60's TV show Daktari, they even made a movie about--Clarence, the Cross-Eyed Lion

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

That's just it, this story is too weird to have been made up

I couldn't disagree more. It's precisely the kind of tale someone would spin, trying to throw in just how weird and freaky the "Manson Family" were. It's building on the kind of stuff that few readers would question.
From every piece of evidence available and all we have from witnesses like Rudolf Weber and the killers themselves, even down to the killing of Steve Parent and Susan's worry about her knife and palm print, not to mention blood spots in the car that Susan spotted at the gas station, one thing I think we can be assured of is that the killers were not into attracting attention to themselves.
Not only that, his times and persona are way off.
As a self-confessed conspiracy theorist, I can see why you'll take anything that seems to rail against what you see as "the official narrative" ~ but in doing so, you have to take on board the most doubtful of tales.

starviego said...

Here is a roundup of all the Witnesses before 1am, and Witnesses after 1am:


The official version of events says that the Cielo murders took place from around 12:20am to about 12:50am.

Here are the witnesses that support that timeline:


-- Linda Kasabian's and Susan Atkins' testimony

-- William Garretson's testimony that Parent left the guest house shortly after 12:15am.

-- Neighbor Mrs Kotts
she heard, “in close sequence", what sounded like three or four gunshots. They seemed to have come from the direction of the gate of 10050 and she later guessed it to be between 12:30-1AM.
HS, pg24 "She did not check the time but later guessed it be be between 12:30 and 1am."

-- At 1am Rudy Weber claims he saw Tex and the girls using the hose outside his house to wash up. He even got the license plate # from the Ford they were driving. "Mr. Weber stated he was guessing at the time"

-- Both Susan & Linda stated that Charlie asked them what they were doing home so early







Witnesses after 1am

-- Tim Ireland
The police report notes: "Between 0100 and 0130 Mr. Ireland was awake, alert and watching the sleeping children. He heard a male voice from what seemed to him a long distance away to the north or northeast shout, 'Oh, God, no. Stop. Stop. Oh, God, no, don't'.

-- Seymour Kott LA Times Article
He heard shots and screams at "2 or 2:30am – no earlier,"
"I heard a loud shot, a woman’s scream, then another shot."

-- Emmett Steele, who was awakened by the barking of one of his hunting dogs. He estimated the time to be between 2 and 3am.

-- Richard Correll
Sees Tex, another man, and two females driving near the crime scene at 3:30am.

-- 14-year-old Carlos Gill
"At approximately 0400 hours he heard the sound of voices arguing. He believed it was three or four persons. The argument increased in volume and became more heated. It lasted approximately one minute and then subsided abruptly." "Carlos, with an open window did not hear any gunshots between 1-1:30AM."

-- Robert Bullington and Eric Karlson, two security patrol trained to mark the time who both said at 4:11am they heard three gunshots

-- Unk 911 caller who reported "woman screaming" call from the same area, about 4am. "I hope we don't have a murder. We just had a woman-screaming call in that area."




I think we have to conclude that there were two separate visits by the killers to Cielo.

Peter said...

Don't let the geeky yearbook picture fool you. I believe Parent was a pretty big kid and a high school athlete.

beauders said...

Who is Richard Correll? Never heard of him before?

starviego said...

See my comment about a third of the way into the comments.

Unknown said...

I don't think Parent was an athlete but he was a big kid, 6 feet to 6 feet 1 and around 200 pounds but no one would have been a challenge for Tex that night

beauders said...

Thanks Starviego, its 130 degrees in Death Valley. I think even Manson would have to leave Death Valley. When people started started calling Starveigo Star I thought they were talking to Star Manson former fiance. It’s really hot here but surely not as 116 degree a couple of weeks ago. The Northwest lost over 200 people from the heat.

beauders said...

Well Katie I guess Zoe has gone to Paris. The actress got a nighttime show. Maybe she’ll be back someday.

katie8753 said...

Yeah Zoe split the scene. I'm already sick of Quinn & Carter. BTW, I think Finn is hiding something from Steffie. He acts like he doesn't want her to meet his family.

beauders said...

Katie, I like Quinn so for the time being I will accept Carter and Quinn having a romance, hell maybe it will liven him up. Quinn needs a new man, maybe they can turn her into a cougar and have some handsome twenty-something come into her life. Yes they tried Quinn with Liam but they were so boring that I could not remember if they had sex or not. Now that was boring.

beauders said...

For those of you needing a destination for a vacation please consider Portland, Or. I have heard that people are scared to come here because of the rioting. That happened in very small area's in downtown Portland and some other small areas. We have everything in Oregon, we have a beautiful city, we have the ocean an hour away and Mt. Hood an hour in the opposite direction. Mt. St. Helens (She blew her top in May of 1980) our active volcano is less than an hour away. Most people don't have an active volcano that close but we do. We have rivers and lakes that are clean enough to swim and fish in. Two hours to the east of Portland is desert and a lot of it. Portland is a beautiful city especially in the summer, we are called the "Rose City," for a reason. Please consider coming here. If any of you do come here, I'll personally take you to all the sights and buy you dinner.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Here are the witnesses that support that timeline:
Linda Kasabian's and Susan Atkins' testimony


Susan recalled either hearing 12 chimes of a clock or seeing a clock that said 12. Neither is concrete, but in conjunction with the clock radio found in Steve's car and a whole lot of other minor details put together, it makes it hard to seriously argue for anything vastly beyond the presented timeline.

William Garretson's testimony that Parent left the guest house shortly after 12:15am

The most interesting thing about Garretson and timelines is that he, in his polygraph, offered up the information of Steve's arrival. Right out of the blue. He wasn't asked about it.

Neighbor Mrs Kotts...she later guessed it to be between 12:30-1AM

Which makes her guess totally worthless. She did not look at the time. To her dying day, she had/has no idea of the time. Her value is what she heard ¬> {from the police report} "heard what she described as four shots fired in close sequence." She is the only person, outside of the killers, to hear 4 shots. She lived next door to 10050. Tex fired 4 shots in close sequence. Hmmm.....

Both Susan & Linda stated that Charlie asked them what they were doing home so early

Susan, never a friend of Bugliosi or the prosecution, stated this both privately to her lawyer and to the Grand jury.
I can't find where Linda said anything about it. She frequently testified, to both prosecution and the defence lawyers, that she had no concept of time.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Witnesses after 1am...Tim Ireland

Again, his timing was a guestimate, and it was way off. He originally said he heard the sounds between 1am and 1.30. But he also testified that he didn't keep track of time. So he asked his supervisor, who told him it was 12.45 when he had called him to tell him what he'd heard. He subtracted 5 minutes, which is how he ended up with a time of 12.40am.

Seymour Kott LA Times Article
He heard shots and screams at "2 or 2:30am – no earlier...I heard a loud shot, a woman’s scream, then another shot."


Kott is perhaps the first in a very long line of people to embellish their tales and inveigle themselves into the fabric of this case, when, in actuality, they got nothing. The very weekend of the murders, there was this NBC interview involving him in which we see this little exchange:
REPORTER: So you didn’t hear any activity after midnight?

KOTT: None, whatsoever.

Then just 2½ weeks later he's telling the papers that he heard gunshots and screaming ~ but he didn't tell the police, neither did he report it. And claims it was no earlier than "2 or 2:30am."
52 years ago or not, I'm calling bullshit. His wife wasn't called as a witness and what she heard is credible. Seymour wasn't even in the running !

Emmett Steele, who was awakened by the barking of one of his hunting dogs. He estimated the time to be between 2 and 3am

Again, relying on amorphous estimates.
The most interesting bit about Steele was that his area of concern was not the Cielo murders, but rather, a Dune buggy and motorbike that had been seen driving around in the twee hours for about 6 weeks.
Steele heard no sounds himself and had no idea of the time. Just look at the span of his estimate. Between 2 and 3am ! A witness like him would have been less useful than a bike with no wheels.
At least you could sell the bike frame !!

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Richard Correll

I find it rather interesting, the lengths one will go to, in trying to support their conspiracies. If you want to rely on a flat battery, like Richard Correll's words, go for it. He appears to me as a glory-hunter who has no real glory to hunt for.

14-year-old Carlos Gill..."with an open window did not hear any gunshots between 1-1:30AM"

But with an open window, neither did he hear the sounds/shots that Steele's dogs are meant to have heard between 2&3am {!!}, nor Seymour's shots and screaming woman {all the more significant as the Kotts were next door to 10050 and ∴ in his supposed line of hearing} nor the supposed shots that Marceau Mounton or Robert Bullington heard at 3.30 and just before 4.11.
So what's your point ?
Gill heard voices seemingly arguing. So what ? How many hundreds or thousands of people could have been living within the sphere of his hearing ? How many people could have been arguing ? There is absolutely nothing to connect arguing voices to the murders at 10050. Carlos Gill, like most of the people after Weber, is a red herring and a distraction. He serves only to muddy the waters and prop up conspiracies that cannot be proven. They couldn't be proven in 1969, they certainly can't be 52 years later, which is why the Richard Corrells of this world are gold dust.....to a diamond prospector.

Robert Bullington and Eric Karlson, two security patrol trained to mark the time who both said at 4:11am they heard three gunshots

No. Bullington said he heard 3 shots and called Karlson. Karlson called the West LA desk of his patrol and told this to some "unknown" officer. Interestingly, Karlson was told by Marceau Mounton of the same patrol, that he heard 3 car backfires but thought they were gunshots. He told him this as he was going off duty at 5.30am.
But again, so what ? None of this tallies with the actual physical evidence of the crime. Unlike Mrs Kott, Tim Ireland or Rudy Weber.

Unknown 911 caller who reported "woman screaming" call from the same area, about 4am

We never learn the ID of this caller, or of the officer at the West LA desk of the Bel Air patrol that made the comment about hoping they don't have a murder there.
So what is their relevance ?

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

I think we have to conclude that there were two separate visits by the killers to Cielo

Concluding that there were 2 separate visits by the killers to Cielo, given all the evidence to hand, is as logical as concluding that in reality, Barak Obama and Donald Trump pulled off the Cielo murders under orders from Hilary Clinton in a psilocybin drenched dream.
A simple experiment: just take the evidence of timelines from what is generally regarded as the official narrative, with all their flaws and changes {yes, very few cases are totally perfect}, with the ending point being when the killers claim they went to bed.
Then take the timeline evidence of Steele, Gill, Bullington, Karlson, Correll, Mounton, the unknown caller, the unknown officer and Seymour Kott. Forget anything the killers have said, in fact, forget the Cielo crime for the purpose of the experiment and just bundle that lot together and ask yourself, honestly, if they could all possibly be witnesses to the same event.
Then tie it up with what is actually known {and apart from anything any of the killers have said}.

beauders said...

Geez, Grim I thought you were going to accept my offer.

katie8753 said...

As the Beatles said, Yeah, yeah, yeah. LOL.

beauders said...

Katie, I would love for you to come to Portland but you wouldn’t like it, also how on B&B how many times has Brooke cheated on a husband or boyfriend? What a hypocrite.

katie8753 said...

Why wouldn't I like it? Too liberal?

Brooke has no right to judge anyone. I told my son today that Brooke has been married to Ridge, his Daddy, his brother, and her own daughter's husband. She has no right to ever discuss morality. She used to be Ridge's wife, step mother and sister-in-law. What a LOSER!!!!!!!

Also on B&B, Finn's Daddy showed up Friday and he's got something to hide. Finn revealed that he's adopted, but who cares about that? There's more to uncover.

Beauders have you been following the Lori Vallow story? That is one of the most disturbing cases since the TLB case.

beauders said...

Yes you would hate the liberal tone here. Lori Vallow is a slimey shit person as is her brain washing husband. She is crazy and he’s a cult leader. She is going to turn on her husband and he’ll be lucky to not get the death penalty. Idaho is Mormon land and they love to execute people.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I'm going to send you on e-mail a video of Melanie Gibb that I discovered yesterday. It's kind of hard to hear but you can put on the caption if you need to.

I don't like Melanie Gibb, I think she's a creepy "hanger on" but then she turned on them, and she does talk a lot and says more than she probably meant to.

I'll try and find that tomorrow.

beauders said...

That’s cool Katie I look forward to seeing it

beauders said...

Yeah Katie those people are nuts and now that they've killed the two children, they both are going to spend the rest of their lives in prison, if not be executed. Like I said before she's probably mental ill and she will turn on him and he's in big trouble. Katie I've reread "The Ultimate Evil" by Maury Terry, have you read it? If not try to get a copy that was released this year. Maybe your library has the new copy.

katie8753 said...

I don't know how Lori Vallow could go from "mother of the year" to killing her children because she thought they were "Zombies". That doesn't even make any sense. There's not a man on this planet who could talk me into killing my kids. Especially if he said he saw a "vision" from God. I'd ditch him like yesterday's trash!

I know these people were LDS, but I can't imagine that every Mormon thinks like this. I've never known any Mormons. I don't think they migrate to Texas. At least if they do, I don't run into them.

Prediction: Lori has now been deemed "unfit" to try for now. I think she's been advised by her lawyer to pretend she was "out of her mind". But in Idaho, they don't have an insanity defense. And unfortunately for Lori, her kids were killed in Idaho, so that's where the law applies.

So she's probably trying to blame Chad Daybell for all of this, EVEN THOUGH she was a willing participant.

BOTH OF THEM need to be executed. Although they both think they are "gods" and are above the law and can't be touched.

WHEW!

No I haven't read The Ultimate Evil. I will try and get that when I have time. I feel busier than a 1-legged person in a butt-kicking contest right now.

LOL.

katie8753 said...

Lori makes me SICK! At every court hearing she's had, she smirks and smiles at the camera, like she's auditioning for the Mrs. Texas pageant again. Although now she looks like 90 miles of muddy road. Her hair is skanky and her layers are "dirty".

She bragged about living in Austin, although she was awarded Mrs. Hays County in a pageant. Austin is NOT in Hays County. It's in Travis County. Another LIE!

I get the feeling that she's got a deeply imbedded habitual liar complex. I've seen her mother. She looks like she died 10 years ago.

There are a lot of onions to be peeled in this Cox family.

Dilligaf said...

Beauders is correct, Ultimate Evil is an excellent read. Many try to dismiss it, but if you keep a non-conspiratorial open mind, you will find it very interesting. When you take when the book was written, and then dig into the years that have passed since, itis, in my humble opinion, far more conceivable than its detractors make it out to be. NY politics, and the need to close the case because of the negative image it gave the city, were, in my opinion, huge reasons to close the case quickly with no strings left. The strings were still there, and Maury Terry pulled at some of them…

beauders said...

Katie if you want to come to Portland I will take to the nude bicycle race.

katie8753 said...

Ouch! That sounds painful. LOL.

beauders said...

I agree but it happens every year.

sunset77 said...

I remember when the band "Queen" held a nude bicycle race as a publicity stunt for their song "Bicycle Race". Freddy Mercury apparently wrote that song after seeing the "Tour de France" bicycle race go past his window when he was in Paris. I think they hired 50 models to take off their clothes and ride around Wembley Stadium in London--Nude Bicycle Race

beauders said...

Those women are prettier than the women and men who do the nude race here. Of course they’re models. Those of you that haven’t read it read it, it is worth it. Personally I believe there was a cult involved in the Son of Sam murders but it was very removed the Process. The Process thought very highly of their dogs, reportedly the dogs were better treated than the children. The Son of Sam people sacrificed dogs. They were very cruel and I am happy most of the shooters were killed after Berkowitz was incarcerated.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

14-year-old Carlos Gill "with an open window did not hear any gunshots between 1-1:30AM."

If the shots were fired well before the killers left Cielo and Rudy Weber saw them around 1am, how in the world could Carlos have heard gunshots between 1 and 1.30am ?
There weren't any.

sam dass said...

Hi, i dont know how to post a new discussion so this is rather off-topic but i have just read that in Danny Trejo's new autobiography he says he got high with Charlie in prison in 1968.
To my knowledge Manson was only arrested twice in '68 and released both times without charge, never making it to prison.
Is Trejo getting the year wrong? Does he mean 1967 at terminal island? Or is it just a lie to sound good?
Thoughts anybody?

Torque said...

Grim, yes. Excellent points on the Cielo timeline. Concerning Susan's admission about the chimes of a clock: one may possibly see the clock she was referring to in the Photo Archives section of Cielodrive.com. A close look at the mantle over the fireplace reveals a small clock with what appears to be a glass dome over it. I've seen many clocks like this, and most of them chime not only on the hour, but also on the half and quarter hour.

If this is the clock in question it would have no doubt been very visible. But what about the time? If the clock was set to the correct time, and Susan read it and heard it chime, what time was it exactly?

This is significant to me because of what arguably is one of the best timestamps of all on the Cielo night: Steve Parent's correction of Jerrold Friedman. In Friedman's testimony(Volune 116, pgs. 12,975-13,072, October 6. 1970), he relates that Steve said, "well, I will be there in fifteen or twenty minutes...no, better make it forty minutes, so I will be there by 12:30".

I plugged the Cielo Drive address and Friedman's address(6027 1/2 Romaine, Hollywood)into Mapquest. Here is what I found: Steve's trip to Friednan's would be 7.3 miles, at a drive time of 29 minutes.

If Steve was judging his time and distance accurately, he would have conceivably left Cielo at 12:01am to make it to Friedman's by 12:30, at least according to Mapquest. But say Steve pushed it a bit, and reckoned a twenty minute drive time. That would mean he would have left Cielo at 12:10am. Either way, would that not put the killers in the living room when Steve was about to depart?

Bill Garretson said he had several wind-up clocks, but none of them accurate, as he had to call for the correct time via the telephone. Interesting he did not wind them.

And what about Ray Asin's daughter, Maureen Serot, who was interviewed on Cielo Drive the weekend of the murders? She said, when asked, that she arrived home that night "about 1:00am". Its chilling to me to think how close she came to actually encountering the killers as they departed Cielo. This would have amounted to mere minutes according to my thinking.

katie8753 said...

Who is Maureen Serot?

Dilligaf said...

Unknown,

Trejo’s story does not pass the smell test. He may be fun to watch in movies, but as it relates to the Wooly Hophead, it is my humble opinion that he is full of shit. It is the equivalent of being invited to a party at Cielo that fateful night. An easy claim to make, with little needed to back it up. In this case the time line does not seem to work. Trejo was doing state time, the Wooly Hophead was doing federal time. Manson was out by ‘67. Somebody is seeking relevance, in this case, unnecessarily.

Torque said...

Hi Katie. Maureen Serot was the daughter of Ray Asin, neighbor to Mr and Mrs Seymour Kott on Cielo Drive. There is a You Tube clip of Maureen's TV intetview from the weekend of the murders on Cielo. I don't have the exact link, but I think the network was NBC.

Maureen was interviewed because she was out late that Friday night, and arrived home at about 1:00am Saturday morning. The reporter asked her if she had seen anything strange in the street the night of the murders. She said that a light, which was normally on at the gate of 10050, was off when she arrived home at 1:00am.

Torque said...

Katie, also check out the Monday July 18, 2016 post on the Manson Family Blog. It contains a transcript of Maureen's intetview with the TV news.

sunset77 said...

Unknown said..."Is Trejo getting the year wrong? Does he mean 1967 at terminal island? Or is it just a lie to sound good?
Thoughts anybody?"

I've never even heard of Trejo, but I don't know of Manson being in prison in 1968. He might have simply gotten the date wrong, he was possibly "getting high". That makes memories like that questionable in the first place. There have been thousands of claims like that involving Manson over the years. It's been my experience that unless there is at least 1 other source, (in this case, something like prison records, or someone else that was with them in prison getting high) I take claims like this with a grain of salt. Does he mention what prison they were in? Prisons keep pretty meticulous records and you never forget what prisons you were in, I did 3 years in prison myself. I can still remember my prison number and the mailing address for several prisons, that was 25 years ago.

Torque said..."Bill Garretson said he had several wind-up clocks, but none of them accurate, as he had to call for the correct time via the telephone. Interesting he did not wind them."

We had several of those wind up alarm clocks, wind up pocket watches, and wind up wall clocks in the 1960's. We almost never used them, they would only stay wound up for about 12 hours. If you didn't wind them constantly, they stopped and you had to find out what time it was somewhere else, like calling for the time on the telephone. I don't remember the number, but there was a number we could call and say "correct time please", and we could get it. We always relied on the "plug in" clock, however, it was not particularly accurate either, but it was better than the pain in the ass wind up clocks that were never right. It seems to me Parent went to Garretson's to sell him a "plug in" clock/radio in the first place. Now we have some kind of "atomic clock" that's apparently hooked into Colorado by satellite, it sets itself automatically, ever after the power goes off. (it beats the hell out of any other clock we've ever had).

Just my thoughts.

beauders said...

Katie, now Sheila Carter, she’s a great villain and will make Quinn look like a Girl Scout.

starviego said...

Unknown said...
"... in Danny Trejo's new autobiography he says he got high with Charlie in prison in 1968."

It happened in 1961 in the LA County jail, according to other articles on this.

katie8753 said...

Good stuff guys! I've got a lot going on right now, but will comment soon. BTW, I know Danny Trejo's cousin. I went to his wedding!

Beauders, I saw Sheila on Friday's episode. She looked like a mummy, not a mommy! LOL.

sunset77 said...

Katie, I received an e-mail last night from a person that says he has some information about Reeve Whitson, Whitson possibly tried to get Sharokh Hatami deported. Hatami was apparently Sharon Tate's photographer. I'm not that familiar with that part of the case.

Anyway, I think he'd like for us to do a post about it, he wrote an article, I'll post a link. It's been so long since I've made a post for this blog, I don't even remember how to do it. If you are interested, here's a link to the article that is mostly about cars, but it mentions Reeve Whitson

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset. I'll check into that!

beauders said...

Ok Katie, watched B&B and was not expecting Eric to forgive Quinn. I expect Quinn to continue her affair and return to Eric.

katie8753 said...

Yeah that's what I think too. She'll get busted again. Round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows.

How stupid can Eric be? Only the writers know.

beauders said...

Katie, are you going to continue watching B&B now that Sheila has come back?

katie8753 said...

Beauders I like Sheila being on there. It makes it more interesting. I can't wait until she and Quinn get into it! LOL.

beauders said...

Yes that will be one hell of an encounter, and I would love it they teamed up.

beauders said...

Well Katie, I had to put down my 15 year cat Cupid today. I am ok just sad, a lot death in my life these past three years.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I'm sorry to hear that. I know how hard it is to lose a pet. They're just like family.

There's a new thread on this blog that you might want to join in. We're discussing the Folger family and Reeve Whitson.

beauders said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beauders said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

Beauders, I hope you're okay!

beauders said...

I’m ok just very sad and fed up with death.

katie8753 said...

Well if it helps, we need your expert opinion on the TLB matters. :)

beauders said...

I'm going to read the new post, soon Katie.