Tuesday, June 1, 2021

I ran across this on You Tube.  I found it very interesting.  Scott Michaels with Dearly Departed Tours talks about Steven Parent's life and ultimate death on Cielo Drive.

It mentions the fact that Parent was suspected to be gay, and that he also might have been killed last instead of first.  I know there are lots of people who think this.  

Lots to talk about!


katie8753 said...

Hey Sunset I was going to post Scott Michael's website address on the thread but I can't seem to find the website. Can you have a look and see what you come up with? Thanks!

katie8753 said...

I don't know if the kid was gay or not, but I don't think the fact that he took a clock/radio to Garrettson's was a sign of "gayness". I think he really wanted to sell a clock/radio. He was trying to make money for college. And the fact that he showed up late at night means nothing. He just got off work. And maybe he was a "night owl". Some people just get started at night.

We know he brought the clock/radio in to show Garrettson. And we know he took it when he left. That shows the impetus of the clock/radio. It wasn't a "prop". It was a selling tool.

katie8753 said...

Finally, I don't know when he was killed, but the killers all say he was killed first.

All of them.

Which doesn't mean that they all tell the truth, but I can't imagine them being smart enough to get together after the murders and make a pact trying to say that Parent was killed first, just in case they were questioned. And why would that matter anyway? Dead is dead. Does it matter to the killers who got killed first?

katie8753 said...

And Tex Watson wants to get out of prison. He nailed a young guy who was just starting his life, among others, and he thinks he deserves a 2nd chance. HA HA HA!

sunset77 said...

Katie, I'm not really sure who "Scott Michael's" is. There was a "Scott Michael's" that did "Dearly Departed Tours" I guess in LA at one time. That website says it's "permanently closed". Here is a link to that Dearly Departed Tours

Also, I think Steve Parent was killed first for a number of reasons. One of them is because Atkins said Watson's gun was broken in the melee in the house, and Watson told her it didn't work anymore. The gun was later found broken. Steven Parent had gunshot wounds to his body. If the gun was broken, Watson wouldn't have been able to shoot him with it. I haven't really looked into this, but I seriously doubt Steven Parent was killed last. As you said, all the killers were in agreement on this, and I don't think any of them has ever changed their story on this issue.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset. Good point about the gun being broken. I had forgotten about that. How could Tex shoot Parent last if the gun was broken?

I think people are basing this theory on the fact that the fence was broken and there was evidence on Parent's car that shows that he backed into it, supposedly because he saw Tex killing people. Parent might have backed into the fence by accident before he even saw Tex, maybe because he wasn't paying attention to what he was doing.

sunset77 said...

Watson might have attacked Parent while the car was in the fence. Parent might have pulled his car out of the fence with Watson standing in front of the car, and then Watson attacked him. Parent's car might have backed into the fence after he was dead.The foot on his dead body might have pushed the accelerator while the car was in reverse. I think I read somewhere once, one of the killers said they pushed Parent's car out of the fence before they left, but I don't remember exactly where I read that and I doubt if I could find it again.

It seems to me that more than one of the killers said Watson got in front of Parent's car as it came down the drive way and said "Halt" before he attacked him, and before Watson cut the window screen and entered the house. I guess Watson, Kasabian and Krenwinkel are all still alive, were there, and probably know exactly what happened. Exactly what happened I guess is "unclear". The knife and gunshot wounds to Parent's body are apparent from his autopsy though.

Every single version of the attack I've ever heard of though, involves Watson and the 3 girls climbing over the fence, attacking Steven Parent in the driveway, and then entering the main house.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset! I agree with you. I think that Parent was attacked first. He was backing out to leave the property at the same time Tex & girls came on the property. I'm sure that someone waving a gun and knife and saying "halt" might make him back into a fence.

We have no idea how long it was between Parent backing up and Parent seeing Tex. We also have no idea exactly where Parent parked when he first got to Cielo Drive. We only know it was in the parking area. It could have been anywhere in that parking area, which is a large area.

I've added a picture of Parent's car to the thread. Tex said that after he killed Parent, he physically pushed the car "out of the way" so it wouldn't be noticed. You can see by the photo where the car ended up.

The bottom line of this case is this: all we have to go by is what the killers say what happened, who did what, who said what, etc. because the victims can't talk anymore. But to know the truth, we have to go by the physical evidence, i.e., photos, blood stains, fingerprints, etc.

If you look at how Parent's car ended up, and if Tex is telling the truth about pushing it back, Parent must have been near the gate when he was attacked. That parking area is pretty big. And his car was pushed back to around that garage area.

katie8753 said...

This is one of those cases that you can read between the lines and come up with all kinds of reasons why this and that happened.

I've been following the George Reeves case for a long time now and it's the same thing. The police ruled it a suicide, but there is compelling evidence that it was not a suicide but a homocide. Way too many things that don't add up.

Same thing with this case. You can think you solved the Cielo Drive murders, but when you get to the LaBianca murders, everything runs into a blank wall.

The difference between the Cielo Drive murders and the LaBianca murders is that Charlie drove the 2nd night.

That's the difference.

The first night, Tex said that Charlie ordered it. The 2nd night Charlie drove and ordered it.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah!

sunset77 said...

There are photos of the damaged fence at the Tate house. Whether Steven Parent's car even caused that damage or not, I don't know. It's possible I guess that Parent backed into that fence when he first got there, before he even got to Garretson's, or I suppose it's possible someone else caused that damage. Here is how Watson describes Parent's murder in his book "Will You Die For Me"--

"We had barely gotten over the gate when there was the sound of a car, and headlights loomed at the top of the driveway, heading toward us. I told the girls to get into the bushes, lie down, and be quiet. The driver of the car had to stop and roll down his window to push the button for the automatic gate, and as he did so I stepped forward out of the shadows, gun in right hand, knife in left, commanding him to halt. A terrified teenage boy looked up at me, his glasses flashing. He was Steven Parent. Much later I would learn he had been visiting a groundskeeper, William Garretson, who lived in a guest cottage behind the main house and pool, a cottage we never discovered in the rampage that followed. (It would actually be some time before I learned the names of our victims. That night and the night after, they were so many impersonal blobs to be dealt with as Charlie had instructed. To make what follows as clear as possible, however, the victims' names will be used.

As I lunged forward the boy cried out: “Please...please, don't hurt me. I'm your friend...I won't tell.” I shot him four times and at some point struck out with the knife, slashing at the left arm he raised to shield his face. After he had slumped back across the seat I reached in the window, cutting the motor and lights before I pushed the car part of the way back up the driveway where it would be less visible from the private road."

I had always assumed the killers had climbed over the fence beside the gate. After reading this for about the 20th time, I just noticed Watson said they climbed over the gate. It appears the gate was made out of chain link fence, when we were kids in the 1960's we used to climb over chain link fences all the time. I would guess the killers were well experienced at climbing over chain link fences.

Watson says he pushed the car "part of the way back up the driveway" If he pushed it "up" the driveway and left the car in neutral, it's possible the car drifted back down the hill and hit the fence after the killers had moved on. I had a straight stick car I left in neutral once when I parked outside of our house. When I came out, the car was "gone". It had rolled about 40 yards down our driveway, across a dirt road, and maybe 10 yards into a field with weeds and trees. After about 5 minutes of looking, I could barely see the top of the car sticking up above the weeds.

starviego said...

sunset77 said...
"....Atkins said Watson's gun was broken in the melee in the house, and Watson told her it didn't work anymore. The gun was later found broken."

I think the timeline was Tex shooting Fry, then beating him over the head with the revolver, then him shooting Sebring, then the weapon was test fired later by the investigators. So it doesn't sound like the gun was disabled.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starviego. If memory serves, I'm pretty sure that Jay Sebring got shot first when he objected to Sharon Tate being told to "lie down". This was before Voytek jumped off the couch and tried to run, and Tex beat his head to a pulp with the gun. And also the handle broke off and it was later found in the house.

I don't know about investigators firing the gun later. Let me check that out and get back to you or if you want to, send me a link about that! Thanks!

Dilligaf said...

As I recall, the barrel on the buntline was bent as a result of using it in a club like fashion. This would have rendered the weapon incapable of firing safely as the bullet, when discharged would have been incapable of exiting the barrel, causing an explosion.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Dill!

jessie SX said...

Parent tried to make a run for it but he didn’t get very far.

starviego said...

katie8753 said...
"... I'm pretty sure that Jay Sebring got shot first"

Whoops, I think you are right on that. But they apparently were able to test-fire the gun, according to Helter Skelter:

Bugliosi, pg247
".... After test-firing the gun, Lee placed the test bullets and the Tate bullets under a comparison microscope."

So the "Parent shot last" theory is still valid!

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starviego. That's on page 269 on my copy of Helter Skelter, copyright 1974. Maybe we have different versions.

I still doubt that Parent was shot last. Like I said before, all of the killers have said that Parent was shot first. Why would all of them lie about that when it doesn't benefit them in any way. It doesn't make them look less guilty.

And if Voytek & Abigail ran out on the lawn screaming their heads off, don't you think Parent would have heard that? Doesn't it make more sense that if he witnessed that massacre that he would have stayed in the Guest House with the door locked? I know Garrettson said he didn't hear anything, but I don't believe him.

And if he was already on his way to his car, don't you think he would have had plenty of time to get in and drive off? From the guest house to the parking lot is probably only about 50 to 75 yards. And the police report indicates that Parent's window was down when he was shot. Why would he roll it down if he had seen Tex bashing people's heads in and ripping them up? Why not leave it rolled up?

Do you really think that Tex had time to tackle Frykowski, beat him, shoot him, stab him for about 10 minutes, then run over and finish off Abigail, then run to the parking lot and stop Parent?

I'm sorry, I just don't think Parent was killed last.

katie8753 said...

Hey Beauders, what do you think of this "Parent killed last theory"?

Also, what do you think of Flo's and Paris' outfits today. Flo's outfit looked like something they forgot to finish. Reminds me of the 3 stooges when Curly had a suit on that was just basted and it kept ripping off. And Paris' outfit reminded me of something you would buy at a garage sale. Hideous!

starviego said...

The two Bel Air Security guards heard three shots at about the 3:30-4am timeline. Both Sebring and Fry were shot indoors. Would the guards likely have heard shots fired inside or outside the house? Plus an eyewitness recently claimed to have seen Tex plus three others drive through the area at about 3:30am.

The whole version as told by the killers is all messed up, if you ask me.

starviego said...

" And the police report indicates that Parent's window was down when he was shot. Why would he roll it down"

As hot as it was that night, couldn't he have had the window rolled down the whole time?

katie8753 said...

Well Starviego, as I said before, there are a lot of details about this case that don't seem to add up. Random people who claim to have heard gunshots or claim to have seen the killers anywhere from midnight to 4:00am may be telling the truth or just making stuff up. Kind of like all of the people who claim to have been invited to a party at Cielo Drive that night, but the truth is there was no party. Just a bunch of losers making that up to try to get their names in the paper.

Physical evidence is a lot more important than "hearsay".

I think the fact that the clock radio showed 12:15am when it was found in Parent's car is important. I think that he took that clock radio in Garrettson's house, plugged it in to prove it worked, then unplugged it at 12:15 when he left the guest house to head for his car. That puts his time of death between 12:15 and 12:30am.

Voytek, Gibby & Parent all had about the same liver temperature and rigor mortis affects. That means they were all killed around the same time. I think all the murders happened somewhere between 12:15am and 12:45am.

Starviego, do you think Charlie went back to Cielo Drive? And maybe he was responsible for the gun shots and yelling people claim to have heard around 4:30am?

katie8753 said...

Don't get me started on the blood pools on the front porch. It appears that Jay & Sharon's bodies were moved to the porch, then moved back to the living room. But there is nothing to support this theory, other than the blood pools.

But, it's hard to ignore the physical evidence....

starviego said...

"How the News of Sharon Tate's Death at the Hands of the Manson Family Spread Through Hollywood" is the title of an article in the May 2019 issue of Town & Country magazine.

They had this account, which I found interesting:

Richard Correll (director):
I was a senior at USC and was helping Harold Lloyd preserve his films at his Beverly Hills estate. Harold knew I was dating his granddaughter Suzanne, but he didn’t know I often parked my car at the lower end of the property late at night and snuck back into the house so Sue and I could have several hours of fun together. As usual, it was about 3:30 in the morning when I left. Everything was so quiet at that hour. I was about to turn right onto Benedict Canyon when I heard and then saw a car driven by a man with long hair, what looked like another man in the passenger seat, and a couple of young women in the back. Their windows were down, music was blaring, and they were carry­ing on so loudly I thought they must be drunk college kids. They were no more than 10 feet in front of me.” .... It wasn’t until later that Saturday, when I heard about the murders, that I thought about that carload of kids again, but I figured murderers would quietly leave the scene of their crimes, not carry on like they were having a party. And besides, if I went to the police I would have to tell Harold I had been there with Sue, and I wasn’t about to do that. It wasn’t until months later, when Tex Watson was arrested, that I knew. There was no question he was the guy I saw driving the car.”

starviego said...

katie8753 said...
"Voytek, Gibby & Parent all had about the same liver temperature and rigor mortis affects. That means they were all killed around the same time."

What about Sharon and Jay? Where does the info about time of death originate? Autopsy reports or trial testimony? (I'd like to check it out myself)

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starviego. Interesting article. I wonder what man he saw in the passenger seat. Tex says Linda was driving until they stopped to wash off with the hose. That was on Portola, off Benedict Canyon. If Richard Correll was driving down Cielo towards Benedict Canyon and saw the car, I'm assuming that the driver would have been Linda at that point. Not sure exactly where he's talking about.

The liver temps and rigor mortis measurements are in the First Tate Homicide Report. Liver temp and rigor are just one way of determining time of death. Parent, Gibby & Voytek's were higher than Jay's and Sharon's because they were found outside and the temperature outside was 94 degrees. The temp in the house was 83 degrees.

Parent's liver temp was 92, Voytek's 90 & Gibby's was 92. Sharon and Jay's liver temps were lower, because they were in the house. Sharon's was 82 and Jay's was 83. I don't think they took the baby's temp.

katie8753 said...

Let me clarify what I said above. Correll said he saw a man driving and a man in the passenger seat. I'm assuming he means there were 2 men in the car. Again, I'm not sure exactly where he's talking about. I think he means the intersection of Cielo Drive and Benedict Canyon.

katie8753 said...

Starviego, if Rudy Weber says Tex & the girls stopped at his house at 1am to use his water hose after the killings, how could they still be killing people at Cielo Drive between 3:00 to 4:30am??


starviego said...

I think they returned to the scene of the crime, not just Charlie.

katie8753 said...

Why do you think that?

beauders said...

I think that Parent was killed first. There is no need to lie. Lying would not benefit anyone. I think Manson and others went back to the Tate house. Again why say you went back if you didn't, there is no benefit for anyone to make this stuff up. Katie I am very surprised by the bad fashion in B&B as its a show about high fashion.

katie8753 said...

I agree Beauders. Why lie about the order of killing? Killing is killing, whether you killed first or last. Doesn't make you less guilty. That whole theory is ridiculous. I think it's based on a broken fence. Silly.

I think Manson went back to Cielo with Pittman. I DON'T think that Tex and the girls went back. None of them have ever said that, and I don't believe it.

People have been studying this case for over 50 years. I think that some people are so tired of looking at the facts, that they make up new facts to generate interest. Either that or to satisfy theories that don't make sense. The next version that comes out in a few years will be that the victims survived. LOL.

B&B is a fashion house, yet their 5 employees wear stuff that looks like it was rejected by homeless folks.

I think Sally Spectra is coming back!

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

Interesting article

I think there have been a lot of fame whores that seem to think it is some kind of badge of honour to have attached themselves to the case and to intimate that they have some kind of specialist insider knowledge.
It reminds me of....horoscopes ! Just from a point of view of pure logic, there are numerous horoscopes published every day in magazines, papers etc, throughout the world ~ yet they never match up. All the people that were supposed to be at Cielo that night or that imply some secret knowledge that puts them out front can't all be right, so most of their stories can be filed under 'forgettable' {or more appropriately, 'forget it'}.

I wonder what man he saw in the passenger seat

Richard Correll's story seems rather fanciful to me. Driving past a car with 4 people in it at 3.30am in the dark after some rumpy~pumpy, are we to honestly believe that he would notice for that split second, in such detail, the people so as to be able to identify them 3 to 4 months later ? And what kind of murderers would be blaring music at that hour after committing murder ? I know the Family marched to a different drum, but they weren't about drawing attention to themselves in the immediate aftermath of murder !

Tex says Linda was driving until they stopped to wash off with the hose

Linda was steering, not driving. According to the court testimony:

Q. by MR.BUGLIOSI: Did Tex, Sadie and Katie eventually come to the car?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. How long after you arrived at the car, did they come to the car?

A. Just a few moments.

Q. Did they come back together or separately?

A. Together.

Q. Did they have any blood on them?

A. Yes.

Q. All three of them?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened after they arrived back at the car?

A. Well, I had started the car, and Tex came over and told me to turn the car off and to push over, and he seemed really uptight because I had run to the car.

Q. Did all of you eventually get in the car?

A. Yes.

Q. Who got behind the driver's seat?

A. Tex.

Q. And where did you sit in the car?

A. In the passenger seat.

Q. What about Sadie and Katie?

A. In the back seat.

Q. Did Tex then drive off?

A. Yes.

Q. You say Tex was driving the car?

A. Yes.

Q. How did he change his clothing?

A. I held the driver's wheel as he took off his top, and he changed his pants later on.

Q. Did Tex say where he was driving the car?

A. They wanted to go and hose off the blood from their bodies.

I'm inclined to take what Tex says in his books with a mighty pinch of salt because it has seemed clear to me for many years now, that he has {indeed, had} very little genuine memory recall and that he repeats stuff that has already been in print for years ~ often {amusingly} complete with the original mistakes that were in the source he is cribbing from. It would be almost understandable if this was the case in his 1978 book but the same thing happens in his 2005 book "Right hand man speaks out" and if one looks at his last parole hearing, it's happening all over the shop there. Except this time, the DDA calls him out on it big time.
He even did it during his trial.
He's nothing if not consistent !

starviego said...

katie8753 said...
"The liver temps and rigor mortis measurements are in the First Tate Homicide Report"

The liver temps were worthless as far as determining time of death, is what I get from reading the autopsy reports. They just waited too long. The coroner Noguchi didn't even bother estimating the time of death for the Cielo Drive victims.

beauders said...

Katie I do like Wyatt’s suit today and yesterday on B&B. I like all the shades of green.

sunset77 said...

Off topic comment:

Home where Manson murders took place sells in California – after price reduction

katie8753 said...

I agree Grim. It seems very unlikely that someone could glance into a dark car at 3:30 in the morning and remember someone's face that clearly months later. Especially since there was no reason to remember it, since Correll didn't know about the murders yet. I don't believe that story.

Starviego, the liver temps indicate that the victims all died around the same time. I can't prove who died first or who died last, but neither can you.

Beauders I didn't notice Wyatt's suit color but he did look nice. Meanwhile Dollar Bill is issuing threats all around, even in jail. LOL.

Thanks Sunset, I read about that house selling recently. I think Leno bought that house from his mother in 1968. I can't remember what he paid for that house. Does anyone know?

I think Leno was making monthly payments to his mother. For all of his money earnings, I think Leno had some money problems. I know he was making payments on his boat.

I think the Cielo Drive house cost Rudy Altobelli $200,000.00. I know Sharon and Roman were paying $1,200.00/month rent on that house. That was a LOT of money back then!!!!

starviego said...

katie8753 said...
"Starviego, the liver temps indicate that the victims all died around the same time."

The corpses were all more or less at ambient temperature. 10-12 hours later, any liver is going to be at room temperature, no matter what time the vic died. (they only took the liver temp in the morgue at 2pm or so that afternoon)


grimtraveller said...
"And what kind of murderers would be blaring music at that hour after committing murder?"

That's just it, this story is too weird to have been made up.

katie8753 said...

Starviego, it's my understanding they took the liver temps at the murder site between 9:00 and 10:00am, i.e., that's how they compared them to the outside temp and the inside house temp. How could they have done that at the morgue at 2pm?

Regardless, it doesn't prove who died first or last.

starviego said...


Correction: From my reading of the autopsy reports, all the on scene initial takings of liver or rectal temps were from 2:30pm to 3:40pm. I think the first coroners were on scene at about 2pm, arriving an hour after the homicide detectives. So by this time all the bodies had reached ambient temp or near it.

The sooner after death the body is found, the more accurately time of death can be assessed by this method. Once the body reaches ambient temperature, all bets are off.

katie8753 said...

Well Starviego I guess there's no physical proof that Parent was killed first or last. We only have the testimony of ALL of the killers that Parent was killed first. And we don't have any testimony from ANYONE that Parent was killed last.

katie8753 said...

Soooo...you know....

katie8753 said...

Hey Beauders, what's going on with Justin? He locked Thomas up in a cage. What's up with that?

katie8753 said...

I'm assuming we're thru discussing the Manson case. LOL.