Well I just finished watching the documentary. It's very well done. I remember when these murders happened in August of 1969. About a week after the killings, the newspapers started saying all kinds of horrible things about the victims. They were into weird orgies, satanic rituals, hanging around with dangerous drug kingpins, etc. Then in December of 1969 when they reported "girls" involved with a hippy cult leader committed the murders for no reason, they changed their tunes and quit blaming the victims, although they never admitted they were wrong.At the end of the show, Jay's attorney said he drew up divorce papers for Sharon to divorce Roman. He said he wasn't sure about the date that happened. I had never heard that before.
Very off topic comment:There are photos of Charles Manson with a swastika carved into his forehead so I guess he could at least loosely be associated with the Nazi movement at one time. A couple of days ago, German authorities finally charged a woman that is now apparently 95 years old with complicity in 10,000 murders that took place at Stuthoff concentration camp. She was apparently the secretary to the camp kommandant, and apparently 18 or 19 years old at the time. She apparently will stand trial in "juvenile court" and has only been identified as "Irmgard F". Here is a news story about Irmgard FThe Germans have a very long history of not punishing Nazi war criminals, those people are still "heroes" in parts of Germany. However, it was not always that way when just after the war, the occupying forces controlled "justice". For anyone unfamiliar with what happened at Stutthof (and I would imagine just about everyone is unfamiliar with what happened at Stutthof), is was a concentration camp in northern Poland, after the war the Soviet/Polish occupation force conducted a number of "war crimes" trials there. Of note, the following link graphically depicts the trial and execution of 11 former Nazi's at Stuthoff, however, it does not describe the crimes they committed like forcing female prisoners to strip naked in below freezing temperatures, then throwing cold water on them, and beating them when the moved. Or Nazi's dressing up as railroad workers with flags and lanterns to "trick" Jews into rail cars where they would be gassed. I think Elisabeth Becker was only 23 years old when she was hanged and had only worked at the camp for about 3 months. "Justice" was different back in those days. Warning, this link is extremely graphic depicting the trial and execution of 11 war criminals at Stuthoff in 1946. They were hanged using the "short drop" method where their necks weren't broken. As one woman wiggled back and forth, she was described as "mermaiding". The Barbaric Public Executions of Nazi War Criminals at Biskupia Górka, Poland in July 1946
Katie is in Texas isn't she? She's usually on this blog all the time, I wonder if her electric is out?
I’m in Oregon and my electricity is still out after a week of this.
Katie has been a little busy this week trying to survive. She said she would portably have some commentary this weekend. She is Texas Strong...
I have a feeling some bad weather isn't going to bother Katie. I've never been anywhere near Texas although I've watched western movies and like to eat beef. And my alma mater WVU managed to come back from 19 points down in a basketball game yesterday and beat a Texas team. I pretty much thought the whole place was like this--God Blessed Texas
Wow this has been a hell of a week!! A week ago the high was around 20 degrees. Yesterday it was around 75 degrees. There's an old saying in Texas. If you don't like the weather, wait 5 minutes, it will change.I was lucky, I only lost power for 28 hours. And I never lost water. Others are still struggling with broken pipes and no water. That really sucks.Beauders I hope you're okay. Is it cold there? How are you staying warm? I can fill you in on B&B if need be.
Did anyone watch the Jay Sebring Documentary? I'd love to hear comments.
I’m ok Katie, I didn’t have electricity for a week. My heat is electric so it was a cold week. I read a lot and Cupid laid on me quite a lot. I couldn’t leave him in a cold dark house so I just stayed home. Not a good week, to much time to think, so I’m glad it’s over.
Katie do you live by Rio Grande’s Big Bend National Park? Have you been there? It seems like a cool park. It sounds like it belongs here in the Northwest.
I see you are back online Katie, it was unusual for you not to post on this blog for like a week. I've been watching many of the weather related problems in Texas with downed power lines and broken water pipes. Anyway, I've only watched a tiny bit of the Sebring Documentary, I haven't had time, due to other personal problems.
Katie I will let you know what I think of the Sebring documentary soon. I've caught up on B&B online. So Vinnie changed the paternity results, huh. What a loyal friend, geez he could go to prison for that.
Thanks Sunset & Beauders. Let me know what you think of the documentary when you've had a chance to watch it. I watched it several times, and I was impressed with it.Beauders I haven't been to Big Bend but I've been to the Davis Mountains. Very pretty there.Yeah I think Vinnie did switch the results of the Paternity Test. First of all, I didn't think he was that smart. Secondly, isn't he a drug dealer? Why would he care whose kid that is? LOL.
Vinnie doesn't care who's baby it, he wants Thomas to have a chance with Hope. Like I said he's a very loyal friend but he could go to prison for what he did.
I walk in my sleep. Like a somnambulist. So....you know. HA HA!
Why would Vinnie care about Thomas and Hope? He's a drug dealer. Drug dealers don't care about folks.
I don’t write this stuff just remember Katie, it is daytime tv. For some strange reason Vinnie cares enough of Thomas to change the test results so Hope will get together with Thomas because Liam cheated on her.
Well I think we're about to find out if Vinnie changed the test results. I wonder what kind of drama will ensue.
I am so thankful that Texan’s saved sea turtles from the freeze. They are being released back to their habitat now.
Liam was annoying today, even Hope seemed annoyed.
Liam is annoying every day.
Yes, but Hope always seems comatose too me, but she was annoyed Friday.
Katie, I am putting together a will as I am having a kidney stone removal procedure on March 19. With everything that has happened in my life in the last few years I think it is the right thing to do. Could you email me your email address as I would like to talk to you privately.
Beauders I just sent you an e-mail!
Did you get my email Katie, I don't know if I did it right?
Yes Ma'am!!! Thanks!
This thread is dedicated to the murders that happened in 1969. We haven't talked about that in a long time.I personally don't think that the murders happened because of Jay selling drugs or because Tex was trying to become the "Don". I think the murders happened because Manson was pissed.Let's discuss!
Katie, more rioting in Portland this time it was immigration issues. They defaced the ICE building in Portland and a lot of the buildings in the area were also vandalized. Back to Manson, I believe that everyone involved had their own personal motives. I think you're right about Manson he was pissed. He knew he wasn't going to make it as a musician or anything else. He was starting to lose his followers so he wasn't really all that good as the "hippie cult leader" either. If he did see Sharon Tate it had to hurt his pride that he could never get a woman like her, even the most attractive woman in the Family, Leslie Van Houten (I am basing this on what the different guys in the blogs say about the attractiveness of the women, Van Houten is not my type) was not interested in him. I also think he was pissed by life in general, he had a crappy birth family and he had a crappy beginning to life. I understand a young person with no prospects being a thief to survive but at a certain age Manson becomes responsible for himself. I understand he didn't have much of an education but he had to know that school was a much better prospect for future success than being a thief. Night school would have helped him or getting an education while in prison. My father, was a used cars dealer and Manson would have certainly been good at that job. I am interested in cult leaders because my dad was one of those kind of guys, he should have founded a religion, like L.Ron Hubbard. I do think Tex wanted more power in the Family. He was the kind of guy who wants power and was probably embarrassed that a guy like Manson was thought of so highly and he was a peon in the group. Katie was so brutal and active in the murders because she was a such a good soldier type. Leslie admired Katie and wanted to be just like her best friend. Atkins was unaffective as a killer because her bravado was fake. I think she thought she could be a killer but couldn't when it came down to it. She was just a very messed up young woman, who got attention by being outrageous. I'm watching youtube right now, there is this girl talking about Jonestown while putting on her make-up. I guess this is her thing that she records herself talking about crime while putting her make-up on. It takes all kinds but I'm not learning anything new. I wonder if she's in Portland?
Katie I was beginning to think we had moved from a Manson blog to a B&B blog glad to be back to Manson.
Thanks Beauders! I love discussing this case. Yeah, we got side-tracked on the B&B.I'm sorry that Portland got vandalized over immigration issues. We're having immigration issues here in Texas. They are overflowing the border as we speak. Biden needs to put on his thinking cap. If he has one. LOL.Back to Manson. He was losing power as a "hippy cult leader" and was unable to quell the masses (or semi-masses that he had left). His "followers" were demanding answers to his promises that they were going to "go to the promised land", and he had none. So he made some up. Like hippy cult leaders do.He blamed the people at the Cielo Drive house. "Some movie star" lived there.Tex Watson was just a limp noodle by then. He was reminded by Manson that he "owed him a favor" because he got him out of the Lottspoppa fiasco.He was an obedient soldier when Manson told him to "go to the house where Melcher used to live and kill everyone".It's interesting that people hit on the fact that they stopped at the Weber house to "wash up". Lots of people think that they were heading to Jay's house and stopped there by mistake. I find that logic stupid. I don't even know why they would care about "washing up", except if they thought they would be stopped by the cops.Do you think that killers who did the carnage they did would even worry about being stopped by the police?I don't know, it just sounds to me like Charlie ordered the murders at Cielo Drive. And he obviously ordered the murders at Waverly. Because he drove them there and chose them.
Manson was able to keep people on the string. I'm sure you've studied "hippy cult leaders" since you've studied Jim Jones.I've watched lots of documentaries about "hippy cult leaders", including Jim Jones, David Koresh, Manson, etc. and they all have similar motives.Was there any decisive action on the folks who were trying to claim Manson's body?
And I'll say one more thing. I was thinking about Doris Tate the other day and it's so sad that she saw her daughter get in the fringe of show business and then get horrifically murdered. I can't even imagine the sadness she endured.
And Leslie Van Houten was a "3". I don't know why she had so many men following her around like she was some kind of "goddess". She had "horse teeth", a phrase I coined.
Katie you’re too funny, I don’t think Leslie got “horse teeth” until prison. An interesting post would be “why were men so attracted to Leslie and are they still?” Maybe she’s a sex on wheels kinda woman.”I worked with a woman who was a sex on wheels type, it’s like the men could smell it on her. She was not traditionally attractive and probably weighed at least 200 pounds and she got all the attention.
Yeah I don't get the attraction about Leslie. She wasn't that pretty. But she was a lot more attractive than that gorilla, Pat. LOL.Hey Beauders, I don't know if you've seen the documentary about Jay, but it mentions that a few days before the murders, Jay's attorney drew up divorce papers for Sharon to divorce Roman. I hadn't heard this. In fact, according to Sanders and Bugliosi I guess, Sharon begged Roman to come home and he changed his plans to be home on Tuesday, the 13th I believe and finish his work on his film, I believe it was Day of the Dolphin.
Not sure I believe the divorce bit. No attorney, even then, would draw up dissolution papers for a third party. Sharon Tate would have had to retain Jay’s attorney herself.
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