Sunday, February 7, 2021

Cutting To The Truth

Here is a link to the Jay Sebring documentary "Cutting To The Truth".  It's a good watch!

76 comments:

katie8753 said...

Well I just finished watching the documentary. It's very well done. I remember when these murders happened in August of 1969. About a week after the killings, the newspapers started saying all kinds of horrible things about the victims. They were into weird orgies, satanic rituals, hanging around with dangerous drug kingpins, etc. Then in December of 1969 when they reported "girls" involved with a hippy cult leader committed the murders for no reason, they changed their tunes and quit blaming the victims, although they never admitted they were wrong.

At the end of the show, Jay's attorney said he drew up divorce papers for Sharon to divorce Roman. He said he wasn't sure about the date that happened. I had never heard that before.

sunset77 said...

Very off topic comment:

There are photos of Charles Manson with a swastika carved into his forehead so I guess he could at least loosely be associated with the Nazi movement at one time.

A couple of days ago, German authorities finally charged a woman that is now apparently 95 years old with complicity in 10,000 murders that took place at Stuthoff concentration camp. She was apparently the secretary to the camp kommandant, and apparently 18 or 19 years old at the time. She apparently will stand trial in "juvenile court" and has only been identified as "Irmgard F". Here is a news story about Irmgard F

The Germans have a very long history of not punishing Nazi war criminals, those people are still "heroes" in parts of Germany. However, it was not always that way when just after the war, the occupying forces controlled "justice". For anyone unfamiliar with what happened at Stutthof (and I would imagine just about everyone is unfamiliar with what happened at Stutthof), is was a concentration camp in northern Poland, after the war the Soviet/Polish occupation force conducted a number of "war crimes" trials there.

Of note, the following link graphically depicts the trial and execution of 11 former Nazi's at Stuthoff, however, it does not describe the crimes they committed like forcing female prisoners to strip naked in below freezing temperatures, then throwing cold water on them, and beating them when the moved. Or Nazi's dressing up as railroad workers with flags and lanterns to "trick" Jews into rail cars where they would be gassed. I think Elisabeth Becker was only 23 years old when she was hanged and had only worked at the camp for about 3 months. "Justice" was different back in those days.

Warning, this link is extremely graphic depicting the trial and execution of 11 war criminals at Stuthoff in 1946. They were hanged using the "short drop" method where their necks weren't broken. As one woman wiggled back and forth, she was described as "mermaiding". The Barbaric Public Executions of Nazi War Criminals at Biskupia Górka, Poland in July 1946

sunset77 said...

Katie is in Texas isn't she? She's usually on this blog all the time, I wonder if her electric is out?

beauders said...

I’m in Oregon and my electricity is still out after a week of this.

Dilligaf said...

Katie has been a little busy this week trying to survive. She said she would portably have some commentary this weekend. She is Texas Strong...

sunset77 said...

I have a feeling some bad weather isn't going to bother Katie. I've never been anywhere near Texas although I've watched western movies and like to eat beef. And my alma mater WVU managed to come back from 19 points down in a basketball game yesterday and beat a Texas team. I pretty much thought the whole place was like this--God Blessed Texas

katie8753 said...

Wow this has been a hell of a week!! A week ago the high was around 20 degrees. Yesterday it was around 75 degrees. There's an old saying in Texas. If you don't like the weather, wait 5 minutes, it will change.

I was lucky, I only lost power for 28 hours. And I never lost water. Others are still struggling with broken pipes and no water. That really sucks.

Beauders I hope you're okay. Is it cold there? How are you staying warm? I can fill you in on B&B if need be.

katie8753 said...

Did anyone watch the Jay Sebring Documentary? I'd love to hear comments.

beauders said...

I’m ok Katie, I didn’t have electricity for a week. My heat is electric so it was a cold week. I read a lot and Cupid laid on me quite a lot. I couldn’t leave him in a cold dark house so I just stayed home. Not a good week, to much time to think, so I’m glad it’s over.

beauders said...

Katie do you live by Rio Grande’s Big Bend National Park? Have you been there? It seems like a cool park. It sounds like it belongs here in the Northwest.

sunset77 said...

I see you are back online Katie, it was unusual for you not to post on this blog for like a week. I've been watching many of the weather related problems in Texas with downed power lines and broken water pipes. Anyway, I've only watched a tiny bit of the Sebring Documentary, I haven't had time, due to other personal problems.

beauders said...

Katie I will let you know what I think of the Sebring documentary soon. I've caught up on B&B online. So Vinnie changed the paternity results, huh. What a loyal friend, geez he could go to prison for that.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset & Beauders. Let me know what you think of the documentary when you've had a chance to watch it. I watched it several times, and I was impressed with it.

Beauders I haven't been to Big Bend but I've been to the Davis Mountains. Very pretty there.

Yeah I think Vinnie did switch the results of the Paternity Test. First of all, I didn't think he was that smart. Secondly, isn't he a drug dealer? Why would he care whose kid that is? LOL.

beauders said...

Vinnie doesn't care who's baby it, he wants Thomas to have a chance with Hope. Like I said he's a very loyal friend but he could go to prison for what he did.

katie8753 said...

I walk in my sleep. Like a somnambulist. So....you know. HA HA!

katie8753 said...

Why would Vinnie care about Thomas and Hope? He's a drug dealer. Drug dealers don't care about folks.

beauders said...

I don’t write this stuff just remember Katie, it is daytime tv. For some strange reason Vinnie cares enough of Thomas to change the test results so Hope will get together with Thomas because Liam cheated on her.

katie8753 said...

Well I think we're about to find out if Vinnie changed the test results. I wonder what kind of drama will ensue.

beauders said...

I am so thankful that Texan’s saved sea turtles from the freeze. They are being released back to their habitat now.

beauders said...

Liam was annoying today, even Hope seemed annoyed.

katie8753 said...

Liam is annoying every day.

beauders said...

Yes, but Hope always seems comatose too me, but she was annoyed Friday.

beauders said...

Katie, I am putting together a will as I am having a kidney stone removal procedure on March 19. With everything that has happened in my life in the last few years I think it is the right thing to do. Could you email me your email address as I would like to talk to you privately.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I just sent you an e-mail!

beauders said...

Did you get my email Katie, I don't know if I did it right?

katie8753 said...

Yes Ma'am!!! Thanks!

katie8753 said...

This thread is dedicated to the murders that happened in 1969. We haven't talked about that in a long time.

I personally don't think that the murders happened because of Jay selling drugs or because Tex was trying to become the "Don". I think the murders happened because Manson was pissed.

Let's discuss!

beauders said...

Katie, more rioting in Portland this time it was immigration issues. They defaced the ICE building in Portland and a lot of the buildings in the area were also vandalized. Back to Manson, I believe that everyone involved had their own personal motives. I think you're right about Manson he was pissed. He knew he wasn't going to make it as a musician or anything else. He was starting to lose his followers so he wasn't really all that good as the "hippie cult leader" either. If he did see Sharon Tate it had to hurt his pride that he could never get a woman like her, even the most attractive woman in the Family, Leslie Van Houten (I am basing this on what the different guys in the blogs say about the attractiveness of the women, Van Houten is not my type) was not interested in him. I also think he was pissed by life in general, he had a crappy birth family and he had a crappy beginning to life. I understand a young person with no prospects being a thief to survive but at a certain age Manson becomes responsible for himself. I understand he didn't have much of an education but he had to know that school was a much better prospect for future success than being a thief. Night school would have helped him or getting an education while in prison. My father, was a used cars dealer and Manson would have certainly been good at that job. I am interested in cult leaders because my dad was one of those kind of guys, he should have founded a religion, like L.Ron Hubbard. I do think Tex wanted more power in the Family. He was the kind of guy who wants power and was probably embarrassed that a guy like Manson was thought of so highly and he was a peon in the group. Katie was so brutal and active in the murders because she was a such a good soldier type. Leslie admired Katie and wanted to be just like her best friend. Atkins was unaffective as a killer because her bravado was fake. I think she thought she could be a killer but couldn't when it came down to it. She was just a very messed up young woman, who got attention by being outrageous. I'm watching youtube right now, there is this girl talking about Jonestown while putting on her make-up. I guess this is her thing that she records herself talking about crime while putting her make-up on. It takes all kinds but I'm not learning anything new. I wonder if she's in Portland?

beauders said...

Katie I was beginning to think we had moved from a Manson blog to a B&B blog glad to be back to Manson.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders! I love discussing this case. Yeah, we got side-tracked on the B&B.

I'm sorry that Portland got vandalized over immigration issues. We're having immigration issues here in Texas. They are overflowing the border as we speak. Biden needs to put on his thinking cap. If he has one. LOL.

Back to Manson. He was losing power as a "hippy cult leader" and was unable to quell the masses (or semi-masses that he had left). His "followers" were demanding answers to his promises that they were going to "go to the promised land", and he had none. So he made some up. Like hippy cult leaders do.

He blamed the people at the Cielo Drive house. "Some movie star" lived there.

Tex Watson was just a limp noodle by then. He was reminded by Manson that he "owed him a favor" because he got him out of the Lottspoppa fiasco.

He was an obedient soldier when Manson told him to "go to the house where Melcher used to live and kill everyone".

It's interesting that people hit on the fact that they stopped at the Weber house to "wash up". Lots of people think that they were heading to Jay's house and stopped there by mistake. I find that logic stupid. I don't even know why they would care about "washing up", except if they thought they would be stopped by the cops.

Do you think that killers who did the carnage they did would even worry about being stopped by the police?

I don't know, it just sounds to me like Charlie ordered the murders at Cielo Drive. And he obviously ordered the murders at Waverly. Because he drove them there and chose them.

katie8753 said...

Manson was able to keep people on the string.

I'm sure you've studied "hippy cult leaders" since you've studied Jim Jones.

I've watched lots of documentaries about "hippy cult leaders", including Jim Jones, David Koresh, Manson, etc. and they all have similar motives.

Was there any decisive action on the folks who were trying to claim Manson's body?

katie8753 said...

And I'll say one more thing. I was thinking about Doris Tate the other day and it's so sad that she saw her daughter get in the fringe of show business and then get horrifically murdered. I can't even imagine the sadness she endured.

katie8753 said...

And Leslie Van Houten was a "3". I don't know why she had so many men following her around like she was some kind of "goddess". She had "horse teeth", a phrase I coined.

beauders said...

Katie you’re too funny, I don’t think Leslie got “horse teeth” until prison. An interesting post would be “why were men so attracted to Leslie and are they still?” Maybe she’s a sex on wheels kinda woman.”
I worked with a woman who was a sex on wheels type, it’s like the men could smell it on her. She was not traditionally attractive and probably weighed at least 200 pounds and she got all the attention.

katie8753 said...

Yeah I don't get the attraction about Leslie. She wasn't that pretty. But she was a lot more attractive than that gorilla, Pat. LOL.

Hey Beauders, I don't know if you've seen the documentary about Jay, but it mentions that a few days before the murders, Jay's attorney drew up divorce papers for Sharon to divorce Roman. I hadn't heard this. In fact, according to Sanders and Bugliosi I guess, Sharon begged Roman to come home and he changed his plans to be home on Tuesday, the 13th I believe and finish his work on his film, I believe it was Day of the Dolphin.

Dilligaf said...

Not sure I believe the divorce bit. No attorney, even then, would draw up dissolution papers for a third party. Sharon Tate would have had to retain Jay’s attorney herself.

beauders said...

From what I understand Tate was going to give Polanski one more chance, that is seeing if the baby caused Polanski to 'cool his jets.' Now back to B&B do you think all this talk of Storm means he's coming back? Didn't he give his heart to Katie? That's going to be hard to get around but people on soaps are always coming back from the dead. I suppose a suitable donor could have become available last minute but why cover it up, besides wasn't Storm declared brain dead before the harvested his heart? I wasn't watching when Storm was on the show but am curious what the future holds.

beauders said...

PS is Bill man enough? Is he your type?

katie8753 said...

Thanks Dill & Beauders. I don't think Sharon was going to divorce Roman, even though she should have gotten rid of him like a dog gets rid of ticks! LOL.

I know they keep bringing up Storm like invoking someone of great power. I hope that at some point, Flo stops wearing that stupid "flowery sunsuit" she keeps wearing. Forrester is supposed to be a "powerhouse of fashion", and that stupid outfit she's wearing looks like something I sewed on my Singer sewing machine back in 1966. I used to buy patterns, fabric and thread back then and I put out some of the worst outfits in American history! And they looked like the one she's wearing!

Flo gets "hired" by the "Logan Sisters", gets taken to "HR" and in 10 minutes she's off work. I wish they had described her job description, but they only defined it as "PR". LOL.

Maybe they will bring Storm back from the dead. It won't be the same actor as before, but most people won't notice. Maybe it will take away from the fact that Donna & Brooke got boob jobs.

And another thing, I'm sick and tired of Ridge yelling at Carter about his feelings!!! That Ridge guy sounds like he was hit in the throat by a jet ski and ruined his vocal chords!

And Zoey being in Carter's apartment at the end of the show??? That's stalking!!!

katie8753 said...

p.s., Dollar Bill can park his boots under my bed anytime. As long as he wipes his feet, cooks dinner, cleans the kitchen, fixes all the leaks, walks the dog, vacuums the floor, dusts the furniture, scrubs the floors, re-tiles the house, cleans the chimney, fixes the A/C, re-asphalts the driveway, paints the house, mows the yard, trims the trees and never bothers me! HA HA HA!!

beauders said...

Well I wouldn't mind him doing all that for me too as long as he never bothers me too.

beauders said...

Katie I looked up Nair and when it was invented, which was 1940. Why didn’t Krenwinkel’s parents get it for her. That and a razor. I feel sorry for Krenwinkel as a child and teenager. She must have been eaten alive in school. Speak about anger, she must have rivaled Manson in the anger department.

katie8753 said...

Yeah I agree Beauders. Pat must have been ridiculed constantly for looking like a hairy goomer.

I don't know how old you are, but I remember being a young girl and later a teenager in the 60's, and parents didn't really lift much of a finger when you complained about being made fun of. We were just told to "buck it up". There were a million reasons why someone got made fun of. You're too tall, too short, too fat, too skinny, too ugly, etc.

Back then, you could either curl up and hide, or become aggressive and fight back.

I chose the latter.

So I don't give Pat a "pass" for killing people she didn't even know because she was angry. Who wasn't angry?

katie8753 said...

BTW, is that stuff on Paris' head hair? or a hat? And she has the ugliest clothes I've ever seen, including that big yellow coat she was wearing today.

And Zende looks like a girl to me.

beauders said...

I don't know for sure but I think it is Paris' hair. Yes some of the women are dressed pretty badly. Flo in her flannel mini dress looked like a nightgown, but much too short. By the way I am 56 and graduated from High School in 1983. Zende is a very slight guy, thus looks feminine.

beauders said...

There were problems in Krenwinkel's family her half sister was a heroin addict and I think she drowned. The half sister had a son, I wonder what happened to him?

katie8753 said...

Didn't Krenwinkel go live with her Dad after the murders? She must have had a good relationship with him to be able to do that. Of course, I'm sure she didn't mention what she had been up to in the prior years with all that Manson stuff. I think both her parents supported her during the trial. She was lucky to have that kind of support from her parents, especially after they were aware of the crimes she committed.

The one I really feel kinda sorry for is Susan. She was basically a throw-away without any parental support. To me, it's much easier to see why she would seek validation in that group because she didn't have any other validation.

I don't know what happened to Krenwinkel's sister's kid.

beauders said...

Krenwinkel ran away to Mobile Alabama and her mother after the murders. She was afraid Manson would kill her. I think it was a local newspaper that has a museum of local happenings and Krenwinkel is in there. She was arrested in Mobile and L.A. detectives eventually brought her back. Yes both her parent's were supportive of her. Atkins didn't have any support during the trial but over the years her younger brother and his children supported her and even asked for her release at the final parole hearing. With the condition Atkins was in at that hearing I would have let her go home with her husband. Just because she did not show any compassion, doesn't mean we cannot have compassion for after a destroyed life.

katie8753 said...

Yeah, I don't have any compassion for killers, but I've gotta say, Susan had a rough life. Not excusing her behavior by any means, but her situation in her early life was a LOT more understanding why she would choose that behavior than the others. Especially Tex Watson. That fucker had an easy life. He has no excuse for his behavior. NONE!

He makes me SICK!

beauders said...

I agree about Watson, Katie

beauders said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beauders said...

Katie did you get one of those crazy electric bills from the storm? They have been all over the news that people were getting $10,000 bills and many were taken out of people's accounts automatically.

katie8753 said...

Beauders, I've been watching the news about this. Our electric company said they weren't going to charge people for February bills on the bill coming out today, but yet they also said they would work with people for the next 10 years to pay their bills. That doesn't make sense.

Our water company said they aren't going to charge people for the busted water pipes and leaking water. Our water company is AWESOME!

My power went out for around 28 hours. During that time, the temperature in my house went down to around 48 degrees. When the power went back on, my heater had to work for hours to get it back up to 69 degrees, which is what I keep it on in the winter.

That is absolutely not my fault and I won't pay for that nonsense.

I saw on the news today that the February bills are going out today. I'll let you know what my bill is when I receive it.

BTW, I also heard that when this cold snap hit, the cost for electricity went up exponentially per megawatt, and I don't know who was in charge of that!

This whole thing is just nuts, but my understanding is that neither the electric company nor the water company can slam people for mistakes they made.

I think the random power companies that people had were able to charge people's credit cards or accounts for the power surge but the State of Texas is going to make that right. According to what I've heard.

katie8753 said...

Okay back to the B&B. When Paris sang that song to Zende, I almost puked. I'm sorry, but that was the worst acapella singing I've heard in a long time. They were in Eric's house, but of course, everyone just convenes there and no one stops them. There's no lock on the door.

And why does Thomas just keep going to that lab and asking Vinnie if he changed the results? Why doesn't he go to Finn and tell him to check on it?

beauders said...

Katie, you're smarter than Thomas, I didn't like her singing either.

beauders said...

There is some serious sibling rivalry between Paris and Zoe on B&B.

katie8753 said...

For some reason Zoe thinks it's Paris' fault that she can't get Carter to take her back. I didn't really understand why she thinks that.

katie8753 said...

Today's B&B was hilarious! Finn, Thomas and Vinnie got into a free-for-all fist fight, but the funny part was that they were doing the Covid 19 avoid BS, so it showed each guy throwing a fist at the camera, and then showing each guy glowering into the camera.

I think Vinnie admitted he changed the DNA test. Although, since he's not a chemist, he's just a drug dealer, he didn't clarify exactly HOW he changed it. LOLOL.

beauders said...

Zoe and Paris must have a backstory which I wish they would show, otherwise Zoe is irrational.

katie8753 said...

Finn had 30 minutes to tell Steffie that the baby was his, and he failed!! In the entire Friday episode, he never told her the baby was his!

I wanted to throw something at the TV, but I didn't because it wouldn't hurt Finn, it would hurt my TV. And I need the TV, for reasons unknown!

beauders said...

I noticed the same thing Katie. If I had that good news it would be the first thing I would say and then get on my knee to propose. Ridiculous.

beauders said...

More rioting in Portland all this week and more planned for the weekend.

katie8753 said...

I heard that on the news Beauders. What are they rioting about now?

Dilligaf said...

Do they even need a reason, real or imagined, any more?

beauders said...

Immigration and Police Brutality is what heard. It's too bad, downtown Portland is dying because off all this.

beauders said...

Now that Spring is about to spring I wonder what the protesters have in store?

katie8753 said...

Well until these people have to face consequences for damaging and destroying entire cities, this won't stop anytime soon. Sounds like it's time to get a new Mayor and/or Governor.

beauders said...

We reelected the mayor and governor so the people of Oregon don't seem to want to get rid of them. With the weather changing I think we are going to have the same thing we had last spring and summer, lots of rioting, burning, and destruction.

katie8753 said...

Why would anyone want to live in a situation like that? That doesn't make any sense!

Beauders I'm not sure of your political affiliation, but can you explain to me why anyone would support burning down of cities, illegal aliens getting free healthcare and free stimulus money, taking jobs from Americans, letting convicts out of prison, more danger in our cities, de-funding the police department? How is any of that good for this country?

That doesn't make any sense to me! I'd like to understand!

beauders said...

Katie, Portland is a very liberal city, probably more liberal than San Francisco. I think the protesting is being tolerated because of the fine line between legal protest and illegal protest. I think most Portlander's agree with Black Lives Matter but what we don't like is outsiders coming here and destroying our city. Our Governor and the Mayor of Portland agree with Black Lives Matter. The good people went home when things turned violent and destructive. Personally, if the police legally wanted to contain the violence and destruction I would be ok with that. Another huge problem Portland has, is our homeless situation. On many streets you cannot walk on the sidewalk because of the tents and other survival needs of these people. It is known that if you are going to be homeless, go to Oregon because the police are nice and don't bash and/or arrest them. The homeless situation is out of control. I worked with someone who just moved to Arkansas because of high taxes, protesters, the homeless, and she wants her son to attend school and play sports which he can't here. I am liberal with one exception, I am hard or crime and support the death penalty for serial killers and violent sex offenders. I hate those people, the pain they cause is unbelievable. Anyone who doesn't believe in the death penalty just needs to listen to Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris torturing their victim Lynette Ledford. She was 16 when these two monsters got a hold of her. The press does not truthfully cover what those two did to their victims because it's too disturbing. I don't want to get on Bittaker tangent just be happy that they both have died from natural causes. Bittaker was on death row for almost 40 years. The victims were all teenagers except one who was twelve. I'm sure they would have liked to have lived another 40 years.

beauders said...

Katie, when Hope asked Liam how he felt about the baby’s being Finns all he had was releaved and his troubles with Hope would end but instead we got a dissertation on his feeling. The man doesn’t know when to shut-up.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I have so much to say. I'll start with Liam.

I saw him on TV today and wanted to kick him in the nuts. He truly doesn't know when to shut up. His mouth is the highway to hell. I don't think he knows what sex he is. I don't know how he could father anything, seeing that he has ovaries!!

And Steffie and Finn talking non-stop about NOTHING!! Steffie has had so much botox put on her face she looks like a blow-fish! Disgusting! And he isn't much better. Those big bazookas are sloppy and wet. It's like watching 2 goldfish kissing.

I'm really thinking about stopping watching this soap. Bell & Company have just truly sucked everything out of this soap opera.

beauders said...

had to say he was releaved

katie8753 said...

There are only 4 actors at a time on this soap! The Young and the Restless have at least 15 or 20 actors. We're getting ripped off!

beauders said...

Do you watch Young and the Restless as well Katie?

katie8753 said...

I used to watch Y&R years ago. Sometimes I turn the channel on and watch it. A lot of the characters have changed, but they still have the old stand bys. BTW, the girl that played Sally Spectrum on B&B is now on Y&R.