Tuesday, February 9, 2016

Welcome to the Hotel Charlie Manson

Venus sent me this link.  This is a blog writer who evidently wrote this in 2009 about the 40th anniversary of the TLB murders.  It has typos and obvious mistakes, but brings up many interesting questions about Manson, his relationships with certain people, and how true all the rumors are.  Take a gander, and we'll discuss.

Thanks Venus!!!! 



Due to the 40th anniversary of the Sharon Tate murders, I just tapped into something that makes the borderline conspiracy theorist in me and my love/obsession of the Avocado Mafia and the rock and roll roots of Los Angeles in the late Sixties and early Seventies, combine and go bonkers.

And all of it is messily tied up with
Charles Manson and his family.

As I said, as this is the 40
th anniversary of the August 9th, 1969 Sharon Tate murders and the official death of the two-year-long 1967 Summer of Love, let’s start there.

Sharon Tate was a former
fiancĂ© and still friends of Jay Sebring - Sebring was murdered along with Tate. Jay Sebring was the hairdresser-to-the-stars and Warren Beatty’s friend, for whom Beatty made the movie “Shampoo. ” "Shampoo" lovingly chronicled the sleazy, but sexy world of beautiful houses in Laurel Canyon, Beverly Hills and Malibu, drugs, and wild sex that was rampant in 1968. All of which, it turns out, were deeply connected – and or mostly supplied by - you got it, Charles Manson.

Separating fact from myth and conspiracy theories is not easy to do in this giant bacchanal mess - none of which is helped by the fact that Manson and his family were all insane murderers - but the truth and connections are amazing and undeniable.

In 1968, Charles Manson lived with
Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys. Wilson admitted he freely partook of Manson’s endless supply of drugs and sex with drugged-up pretty hippy girls. This relationship started the germ that would grow into the fall-of-Rome that was soon to be West Los Angeles circa 1968.

The newest biggest drug to hit this scene was cocaine, which Manson had tapped into supplying and using way ahead of his time thanks to his desert biker gang connections. Hard as it seems to believe now, there was a time when the coolest people were doing a lot of cocaine and having a lot of casual sex.

Manson started to scare Wilson, so Wilson kicked him out of his Sunset Blvd house – this started the toxic hatred of Wilson by Manson - so Manson and his girls set up shop in Spahn Ranch, the site of a dilapidated former western movie set in the desert – later used by the
Eagles in their "Outlaw Man" video. More about that later. (“Never go with a hippy to a second location.” Alec Baldwin’s Jack Donaghy, “30 Rock”)

Prior to the ugly eviction of the Manson family, Wilson and the Beach Boys actually recorded a Manson song, "Cease to Exist" which they changed to "Never Learn Not to Love." Much to my surprise, Manson turned out to be quite the talented songwriter. Manson’s songs were also used by other bands and singers including
Guns ‘N Roses and Marilyn Manson.

Neil Young spoke openly about his admiration for Manson and his free-association musical style. It is speculated many of Young’s hit songs were inspired by the Manson family hippy girls with whom Young slept - among them “Cinnamon Girl” and “Cowgirl in the Sand” - in the party/orgies out at Spahn Ranch. The Spahn Ranch (Used in "Bonanza" and "The Lone Ranger") is where the rough Los Angeles outlaw biker culture blended uneasily, but forever, with the hippies of rock and roll.

After this time, Neil Young gave Manson a motorcycle - some speculate to pay a sex and drug dept – and Young tried to get Manson signed with
Reprise Records. Something tells me Manson had spooked Young, and Young wanted to make him happy.

Manson was a racist and a fascist and devout follower of Hitler and mentioned Hitler’s Eagles Nest over and over again in his teachings and lyrics. He was also a firm believer in witchcraft and the occult. Call me crazy, but the (ahem) Eagles “Hotel California” mentions 1969 and “stabbing with their steely knives.” And “
Witchy Woman”?

Apparently it was well-known, much to my surprise, that
Doris Day and Charles Manson had been lovers and Day's son was a Manson follower, Terry Melcher. (Melcher reportedly gave Manson a luxury car, a Jaguar, on the condition Manson stop telling people about Manson's affair with his Mom) Terry Melcher was also a successful recording artist/producer who wrote songs with the Beach Boys. (If the coupling of the images of Doris Day and Charles Manson aren’t the seventh sign of the Apocalypse, I don’t know what is)

(Mom, if you’re reading about this Doris Day/Charles Manson hook up in heaven, I am sorry, but it appears to be true)

(And I’m not even going to go into the gay-sex allegations – Manson was maybe the only and truly bi-sexual man on the planet – about
Red Skelton, Cary Grant, Robert Conrad, (gulp) Peter Falk and (double-gulp) Elvis Presley)

Doris Day's son, Terry Melcher, was so enamored of Charles Manson he decided to produce a musical documentary about Manson, until Melcher became unnerved at the sight of Manson brutally stomping a drunk stuntman nearly to death at Spahn ranch. At that point, Melcher dropped all contact with Manson, further infuriating Manson with his Beach Boy connections.

Neil Young introduced fellow Canadian
Joni Mitchell as well as his CS&N band mates, David Crosby, Graham Nash, Stephen Stills, into this wild lifestyle. They all lived at and around Topanga Canyon, Malibu/Zuma, Coldwater Canyon and Laurel Canyon and – although there isn’t photographic evidence to link all of these players with Manson - it is impossible they didn't know each other well, and probably shared drugs or sex or both, through these endless parties.

For example,
Eric Clapton was busted for drugs in 1968 along with Terry Melcher in whole-party-sting-arrest at a Topanga Canyon house, although the chargers were later dropped. Not that it puts Clapton directly with Manson, but . . .

Some say the California trend of “Hey, let’s have orgy sex with many beautiful people at the same time, but don’t tell anyone about it” can first be credited to
Hugh Hefner and the Playboy mansion, but Manson certainly put a hip, drug-driven, rock and roll spin to it.

The orgies apparently
begat real relationships as Joni Mitchell was linked with everyone in “Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.” So was Judy Collins. Mitchell admits she wrote “Help Me” about Glenn Frey of the Eagles. Later on it was the same story with Don Henley and Linda Rondstadt and Stevie Nicks. “Suite Judy Blue Eyes” was written by Stephen Stills about Collins. The list goes on and intertwines seemingly forever.

What a tangled web we weave indeed, Don Henley. “Have sex with a celebrity and write a hit song about it" screamed the mantra of the times. Cue:
Carly Simon's "You're So Vein."

The regulars at these wild Malibu, Sunset Blvd, Laurel Canyon debacles were the who’s who of rock in the late sixties. Including, you got it, the Who. You name them, starting with
Clapton, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Dylan, the Mamas and the Papas to the Beatles to the Rolling Stones, the Doors (Jim Morrison was a client and friend of Manson-murdered hairstylist-to-the-stars-Jay Sebring ) and Led Zeppelin, all admit to being at and were witnessed at these “Shampoo”- like orgies combining famous celebrities, wanna-be-starlets, Manson's sex slaves, music, acid, pot, coke, and lots of wild bondage and spanking multiple-partner sex.

The soundtrack to these parties could be Led Zeppelin's "Misty Mountain Hop."

Now, I don't want to say the Laurel Canyon parties were all satanic debacles. I'm sure there were amazing wine-and-pot generated sweet moments of the sunset through the leafy trees and all of these amazing musicians harmonizing and playing
acoustic guitars. It has been rumored that Keith Richards wrote "Wild Horses" with L.A.-based Graham Parsons ( they were good friends) at such a party and, as it is one of my favorite love songs, I would love to believe that is true.

One of those celebrities who flat out admits - and seemingly brags about - having multi-partner sex with Manson at these parties is none other than
Jane Fonda. (Her father, Henry Fonda, had lived in the same house on 10050 Cielo Drive where Tate was murdered, but I am not implying a connection. But it does speak to how close Manson was to all of this back then)

Want a good creep out? Google Earth:
Cielo Drive, Laurel Canyon California. It is remarkable how infested-with-celebrities that wealthy neighborhood was/is. Joni Mitchell’s house (which inspired Graham Nash’s sweet song “Our House”) was probably close enough to hear Sharon Tate’s screams across the canyon on that fateful August night.

Myth started blending into reality which turned into cold hard cash as these drug and sex fueled parties started producing some eye-popping success in the music world. “Going to California” by Led Zeppelin was like an open invitation: come to California and take drugs and play music and have sex with Manson’s wild and brain-washed
hippy girls. And while you’re at it, why not pay for it all by writing a hit song about it?

Everyone in the country knew about these wild California rumors, but it not only turns out to be true times ten, it turns out the epicenter of the whole thing was none other than Charles Manson. Many famous participants, like Jane Fonda, freely admit it. Although there are no receipts and bills connecting the sex and drugs directly to Manson, if famous people are, even now, willing to admit they did drugs and had sex with a famous convicted mass murderer, I am inclined to believe them.

And if all of that
wasn’t crazy enough, Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and the rat pack and the mafia all come into play. It is known that the LaBianca’s – also murdered by Manson – were randomly selected to be killed, but they were also connected to the mob and Sinatra. Dean Martin’s daughter admitted to having sex with Charles Manson. Frank Sinatra was also known as a regular at these parties.

Where things turned on this scene was obviously the tragic, insane night of August 9
th, 1969. The Laurel Canyon/Beverly Hills 10050 Cielo Drive house Tate rented was owned by a producer of the Beach Boys, Rudi Altobelli – who also, surprise, surprise, had mafia ties. Altobelli bought the home from Terry Melcher who had lived there with his then wife, Candice Bergen.

Manson would tell anyone who would listen how the Beach Boys, Melcher and
Altobelli ripped him off of his Beach Boy royalties – which it turns out was true. Even crazy people get hosed. (A running joke is that, even after the murders, Charlie Manson wasn't even close to the craziest a-hole in the music industry)

So, was the attack at Tate’s house a case of revenge-based mistaken identity? Nobody knows because Roman
Polanksi and Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring and the LaBiancas were all known regulars at these Manson-catered parties. (Sharon Tate was look-alike Julie Christie's Jackie Shawn character in "Shampoo.")

That is how deeply woven this seedy web was in West Los Angeles, that a possible case of mistaken identity mass murder could still have direct ties with this insanely wild scene.

Rock and rollers and celebrities penchant to use and spit out people who are trying to leech from them is legendary – chronicled as recently as
Cameron Crowe’s “Almost Famous” - but in Charles Manson, they tried to chew up and spit out the wrong guy, and Manson was determined to make them pay. In blood.

After the gruesome Tate murders, all of Hollywood and the music business went into hiding to cover their long history with Chuck. (Don't forget, the Beatles admitted they wrote the 1968 “Sexy Sadie” after soon-to-be Manson Family killer
Susan “Sadie” Atkins, though that was later denied and covered up after the murders. Volumes have been written about the Beatles influence on Manson, it seems Manson also influenced the Beatles)

Although I am
admitting this is getting into nebulous territory, it has been strongly rumored the Beatles stopped touring at this exact same time for fear of Manson family retribution at a concert. It is true that, individually, all the Beatles jacked-up their private security and went into hiding at this time.

Manson was rumored to have an infamous celebrity hit list of those powerful people who took advantage of him and supposedly it included the Beach Boys and the Beatles, thus making Dennis Wilson’s drowning even more suspicious. Clapton went into heroin-induced hiding right then as well.

Coincidence? Maybe. Who knows? I sure don't.

Regardless, hard as it is to believe, at the heart of the hugest and most influential music scene in rock’s history was one Charles
Milles Manson. Manson’s heavy-handed mad guru preaching of the creative power of drugs, orgies, motorcycles, occult and S&M were messy fingerprints left all over rock and roll at this time. Take those themes away and where does that leave everyone from the Doors, Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones and on forward to the Red Hot Chili Peppers to Guns and Roses to the entire heavy metal movement?

Granted, some of these are chicken and egg arguments, drugs and sex and rock and roll have always been linked, but there is simply no denying Manson’s stranglehold on the 1968/1969 West Los Angeles' dark world. If you had sex with a crazy
hippy girl and did drugs, as nearly everyone did then, you probably owed it to Charlie Manson.

August 9
th, 1969 is when the hangover began, not just in the music business, but in our entire culture as well. Suddenly being a hippy and doing drugs and having an orgy were not seen as so chic and enlightened now they were preached and provided by an unspeakable mass murderer.

Of course, the appetite for drugs and orgies
doesn’t go away over night, but from this moment on they went underground. (At the exact time when Manson and his cache of drugs and his minions of horny hippy girls vanished from the L.A. scene, the Las Vegas-based-mafia-run prostitute and drug rings in Hollywood scuttled to cover and openly had wars with the biker gang’s drug dealers and prostitutes. It seems Chuck left a big bloody mess in his wake. )

Around the mid-to-late Seventies people were starting to see, especially in the music industry, the toll exacted from, as Don Henley put it, having “everything all the time.”

However, as Don Henley so eloquently pines in “Hotel California” there was still longing for that weirdly magically drug and sex crazy time; “We haven’t had that spirit here since 1969.”


The press pushed hard to simplify Manson as a madman using the Beatles "Helter Skelter" as an excuse to commit heinous murders, but that turns out to be wrong; the connection between Charlie Manson and rock, from the Beatles to the Eagles, was far, far deeper than anyone wanted to believe.

Especially the rockers themselves, they clearly wanted to deny Manson's influence. Whether they admit it or not, Charles Manson was a, if not the, player, as we say now, in that
incendiary and wildly influential era on rock around Los Angeles in 1969.

Nobody is saying Manson was not nuts, but let's not also forget this was a man with enough charisma to have a huge harem of pretty women who truly believed Manson was a savior. Not only that, they tried to prove their devotion to him by committing unspeakably grisly murders. Someone like that could easily hoodwink a bunch of insecure artists. You can't write all of that off to insanity and acid and cocaine.

No matter how crazy a rat Charlie Manson was, anyone with that much wild sex and drugs to offer can easily slither into the upper echelon of the Los Angeles entertainment industry, just ask Heidi Fleiss.

Whether or not Manson was just some drug-addled homicidal desert spook who happened to get in the heads of famous, but insecure musicians by plying them with drugs and sex, or Manson was the rock Svengali forever responsible for motorcycle-boot- stomping the spirit of rock and roll into a decadent sex and drug raged violent rebellion, Manson’s impact on rock music, no matter how horrible, was enormous and indelible.

So, rock and roll, welcome to the Hotel Charlie Manson, you can check out any time you want, you just can never leave.  


http://thordoggie.blogspot.com/2009/08/welcome-to-hotel-charlie-manson-due-to.html 

128 comments:

katie8753 said...

Thanks Venus!

I love that last sentence: So, rock and roll, welcome to the Hotel Charlie Manson, you can check out any time you want, you just can never leave.

How true!!!

katie8753 said...

The author suggests that Doris Day had an affair with Manson. But offers no proof. Is there any proof of this? I find it grody.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Hard as it seems to believe now, there was a time when the coolest people were doing a lot of cocaine and having a lot of casual sex."

I don't find it hard to believe at all.

I think the folks at Cielo Drive were doing many of the same things, that the kids at Spahn's Ranch were doing.
I've always believed that.

Polanski fingered both Sebring and Frykoswki as being frequent drug users (in his lie detector test), and I readily believe him.

Polanski himself, was a sexual deviant and pervert.
If the ass-rape of underage Samantha Geimer isn't enough to convince you, he readily admits to "fucking two airline stewardesses" just TWO DAYS after the murder of his wife and unborn child.
Who does that?
Polanski is undoubtedly a creepy guy, and birds of a feather flock together.

Honestly, just seeing photos of Jay, Sharon and Roman all together (like the famous stairwell photo), always creeps me out.
That was the strangest fucking situation I've ever seen.

I mean... I'm not "Hollywood hip", so I guess I'm not very "with it"... but c'mon folks... what kind of a man lets his wife's ex-lover do sleepovers at his house (while he's out of the country)?? Or ANYTIME for that matter?

It wouldn't surprise me in the least, if Roman and Jay were both still porking Sharon (right up to the last minute).
Does anyone REALLY believe, that Jay was spending time at Cielo Drive with Sharon, just to be a good pal? LOL
C'mon folks... I was born at night, but it wasn't LAST night.

Polanski was doing his "thang", and I'm sure Sharon was too.

It was casual sex and drugs at Cielo, just like everywhere else in 1969.
Are people really THAT naive?

For the record:
I've never really viewed Sharon as the "squeaky clean" girl, that everyone else seems to.

To me, sharon was a classic "gold digger"... and she was willing to marry, get pregnant by, and stay with, a very strange, perverted, cheating, not-so-good-looking man, to achieve that goal.

I mean, come on folks:
Does anyone REALLY think Sharon would have given Roman Polanski a second look, if he was a garbage collector???? LOL

Heck...
Does anyone really think Sharon would have given ANY MAN a second look, if he was a garbage collector????

She was with Roman Polanski, because she wanted to be a movie star... and she enjoyed that lifestyle.
She had the looks, and he had the money/influence.
It's a business transaction.
And when you marry a creep for a movie star career, in a real sense, you're prostituting yourself.

I'm not saying Sharon deserved to be killed... I'm simply saying, she wasn't Mother Theresa.
She had an agenda... and that agenda was "success"... even if it meant marrying a creep.

They were partying, having casual sex, and transacting "sex for favors" at Cielo Drive, just like they were at Spahn's.

-------------------------------------------------------------

The author of this article wrote:
"If you had sex with a crazy hippy girl and did drugs, as nearly everyone did then, you probably owed it to Charlie Manson."


I wouldn't take it THAT far.
That's quite a stretch.

If you took LSD, you probably owed it to Stanley Owsley though.
That's a more accurate statement.

---------------------------------------------

I have never seen any actual proof, that the Beatles wrote "Sexy Sadie" about Atkins.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I won't get into specifics, but some of the information (i.e., "facts") in this article are overstated.
In short, some of the author's claims have never been substantiated beyond urban myth.

The piece is well-written though, and "collectively" it provides some fair points and decent fodder for discussion.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

My two cents...

grimtraveller said...

The piece sounds like it was written by a conspiracy theorist. One who repeats rumours they've heard as fact to be secretly relied on.
The piece is full of stuff that makes anyone that has even a cursory knowledge of this case at the very least, "raise their eyebrows".......!

grimtraveller said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I wouldn't take it THAT far. That's quite a stretch

A stretch ? The sinews are expanding !

If you took LSD, you probably owed it to Stanley Owsley though. That's a more accurate statement

Kind of depends when, but even so, it's a statement too accurate for this article. It involves actually having some factual stuff, such as the existence of Owsley and the fact that he was a major producer of LSD. I maybe shouldn't come down so heavy on the writer but their wanton disregard for the at least verifiable is really rather irritating.

I have never seen any actual proof, that the Beatles wrote "Sexy Sadie" about Atkins

And this is a good example. There's a very good reason why you'll never see proof that "Sexy Sadie" was about Susan Atkins.
It wasn't.
There's a difference between a book that has a few inaccuracies but lots of verifiable stuff and an article that is basically just repeating gossip.
If the writer had bothered to read any one of a number of Beatle books that discuss their songs in even shallow depth, they would have known that the original title of the song was "Maharishi" and that it was the last song John Lennon wrote after a 2 month sojourn in India that had turned kind of sour for him. It's a bile filled bitter song {there exists an even more vitriolic mouthed demo version that could never have been released, even as a curio !} about Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the guy that gave transcendental meditation to the world. And because George Harrison hadn't altogether given up on the Maharishi, he persuaded John to call it "Sexy Sadie." Paul McCartney tells this story in "Many years from now." The Beatles would sometimes use pseudonyms in their songs, for example "Hey Jude" was written by McCartney for Lennon's son Julian, "Sergeant Pepper's lonely hearts club band" as a title and alter ego name was a lighthearted jab at the American psychedelic groups like the Jeffereson Airplane, the Grateful Dead, the 13th Floor Elevators and Big brother & the holding company with all those long names.
Who had even heard of Susan Atkins in 1968 ?

grimtraveller said...

Volumes have been written about the Beatles influence on Manson, it seems Manson also influenced the Beatles

By the time Manson was in the news regarding the TLB killings, Lennon had left the Beatles !


it has been strongly rumored the Beatles stopped touring at this exact same time for fear of Manson family retribution at a concert

This is the kingpin, it really is. Charles Manson was in prison when the Beatles played their last concert. It was in August '66 ! He hadn't met anyone that went on to comprise the Family ! They did one more gig on a rooftop in London in January '69 ~ 7 months before Tate/LaBianca happened. They stopped touring in '66 because 3 of them hated it.

It is true that, individually, all the Beatles jacked-up their private security and went into hiding at this time

Oh, that must be why in the film "Imagine", shot in 1970/71 a strung out guy turns up at Lennon's house and has a stoned conversation then John takes him in to feed him !

Venus said...

Lynyrd said....

Polanski himself, was a sexual deviant and pervert.
If the ass-rape of underage Samantha Geimer isn't enough to convince you, he readily admits to "fucking two airline stewardesses" just TWO DAYS after the murder of his wife and unborn child.
Who does that?
Polanski is undoubtedly a creepy guy, and birds of a feather flock together.

For the record:
I've never really viewed Sharon as the "squeaky clean" girl, that everyone else seems to.

To me, sharon was a classic "gold digger"... and she was willing to marry, get pregnant by, and stay with, a very strange, perverted, cheating, not-so-good-looking man, to achieve that goal.

I mean, come on folks:
Does anyone REALLY think Sharon would have given Roman Polanski a second look, if he was a garbage collector???? LOL

Venus says....YES!!!!!!! While I'm not going to go so far as to say she was a gold-digger, I also don't think she was this super sweet goody two shoes either. I mean, yes, I'm sure she was very nice (many people have said so), but she was doing things that just weren't done by most women of her age at that time....such as posing nude for many different photogs, appearing nude in movies, living with boyfriends.....I'm not saying these things weren't being done by others but it was very rare!!!!!

Venus said...

As far as Doris Day having an affair with Manson--who knows? Remember, she was only in her 40's then and still looked great. There have been lots of rumors about her various "alleged" affairs through the years.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Grim. There is no way that the Beatles were communicating with Manson, or vice versa. And no way Sexy Sadie was written for Susan. That was something Manson thought up when that song came out.

And all this talk about Manson knowing EVERYBODY is just ridiculous. Not making fun of the blog author, but you just can't buy into everything that people say.

Manson having an affair with Doris Day?? Jane Fonda bragging about sex with Manson? Sharon, Roman & the LaBiancas having sex with Manson??? GET OUTTA HERE.

Can you imagine Leno having sex with Manson? HA HA.

And did Henry Fonda live at Cielo Drive? That doesn't sound familiar.

I agree with Lynyrd & Venus to a degree. I do think that Sharon had an agenda when she married Roman. She could have had pretty much any man she wanted, why choose him? He was as repugnant as Manson, plus he treated her like trash, cheating on her all the time. Who would marry that guy?

katie8753 said...

I don't know Venus. Maybe it's true, but Doris was an established actress back then, she didn't have to settle for "sloppy seconds". Plus she didn't have to spread her legs to get ahead, and how would Manson get her ahead anyway? He was a nobody.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Can you imagine Leno having sex with Manson?"

Jeez.
I'm trying to eat supper here.

maudes harold said...

Like previous posters have said, I think this author has overstated many things, come to conclusions that are flat out wrong or misleading and offers no proof of anything. But to conclude Manson was behind everyone in the 60's getting laid and high is just another example of basing your info from a Lifetime movie...

I have no problem with the idea that Sharon "was shared/shared herself" with others. And Lynryd, while I think Sharon wanted fame and success, I wouldn't use the label 'gold digger' as I see that as someone who actively sets out to get a rich guy. I think Sharon wanted that Hollywood fame and career and was definitely willing to do things to achieve that, but I also think she came to realize it wasn't all she thought'd it be. But you're right in that I doubt Roman would have attracted her attention as a garbage collector.

Virginia Graham said some of Jay's girls that worked at his salon also "entertained" men. I have thought for a long time it's possible that Jay supplied women as well as drugs to clients. I'm not necessarily saying he had an operation going, but getting girls and drugs isn't unheard of in business, political and entertainment circles. And Venus, didn't his ex wife or gf say he tried to get her to sleep with some of his friends?? Either way, it's not a stretch, but again no proof to it.

Henry Fonda did live at Cielo. I have only heard Jane say she and Roger Vadim did some wild things. I've never heard it from her that she shacked up with Manson.

CarolMR said...

Thanks so much for this, Venus. As far as Doris Day and Manson - Doris still looked great in her 40s; it was Manson who was skeevy. I've heard Jane Fonda say that Roger Vadim persuaded her to do things, like make sex videos, that she really didn't feel comfortable doing. But I've never heard her mention Manson.

CarolMR said...

Red Skelton???

leary7 said...

I am always fascinated by how 'reasonable' Grim is in his perspectives and retorts. The man has game. And there is nobody more provocative than this blogs fearless leader, good stuff LS.

I recently became intrigued with the whole thesis of there being more to the Satan worship/porno happenings surrounding the TLB world. We all know that many of the key players in this drama had major sexual extremism issues as well as serious links to the Dark Arts. But when you put all that data up on the blackboard the key question becomes how immersed Sharon was in those areas. I agree wholeheartedly with L/S that Sharon was no white rose. Her love for both Roman and Jay, two serious sex deviants, does cast her in a certain light.
Sexual experimentation and sexual deviance ARE two different things - but the line is thin, and easily crossed. Did Sharon cross that line...how far into the worlds of the Dark Arts and sexual deviance did she travel with Jay and Roman are her guides.

Venus said...

Katie, I'm not saying Doris DID have sex with Manson, just saying that anything was possible. to put it in perspective, I'd have chosen Manson over Polanski, but that's not saying much, lol. I find neither of them attractive so, to me, that's like saying I'd choose cabbage over carrots (I'm not a fan of either!)

As far as Jane Fonda, I've also heard the stories told by her husband and they've been mentioned elsewhere too. Jane was linked to Jay. According to her husband, he caught them in a bathroom at Cielo so go figure!

Henry Fonda did live on the Cielo property at one time, not sure which house tho but I think it was the guesthouse.

Maude's Harold, the story about Cami being "encouraged" to sleep with celebs while married to Jay was in a book about Marilyn Monroe. In the book (I read it) it never said that Jay was the one who encouraged her to do so. Someone who knows Cami said it's not true.

Lots of rumors, eh? Fun to discuss, but need to add a few grains of salt! :-)

CarolMR said...

"As far as Jane Fonda, I've also heard the stories told by her husband and they've been mentioned elsewhere too. Jane was linked to Jay. According to her husband, he caught them in a bathroom at Cielo so go figure!"

Never heard that one, Venus!

Venus said...

Great story, lol.

grimtraveller said...

leary7 said...

We all know that many of the key players in this drama had major sexual extremism issues as well as serious links to the Dark Arts. But when you put all that data up on the blackboard the key question becomes how immersed Sharon was in those areas

In his book "Hungry for Heaven ~ the search for redemption in rock and roll", Steve Turner, when focusing on Satan worship and the dark arts of various rockers in the 60s and 70s, makes what I've long thought was a poignant statement. When pointing out how many that went that route ended up dead or serious heroin addicts, he said "it would seem that those that messed around with the Devil got messed around by the Devil." For those like myself that take the presence of malevolent spiritual beings as an unseen reality, it's not something to laugh about.
Ed Sanders seemed a bit obsessive in his book "The Family" about the Satanist type goings on in and around California in the mid to late 60s but it should be remembered that what were seen as Christianity's pointless, funless, joyless constraints and lack of everyday reality or connection with anyone's life were cheerfully thrown off by many in the Western world. Actually, in much of the world per se. Church and Christianity were seen as responsible for much of the world's woes or certainly as having no answer to them ~ alternative religious and philosophical ideas and practices weren't. So there was a lot of dipping toes in the waters of Satanism and associated dark naughtiness. That there were no restraints on what one did made it attractive. Indeed, to those in the actual arty world {music, movies, writing and related or supporting fields}, one was actively encouraged to go as far as one could against religious taboo and no~no's. You could say that the overriding philosophy was "eat, drink, fuck shamelessly and be intoxicated for tomorrow we die !"
Excess was in.

katie8753 said...

And no way Sexy Sadie was written for Susan. That was something Manson thought up when that song came out

Charlie actually did rename Susan Sadie Mae Glutz long before the Beatles recorded "Sexy Sadie." One of the reasons the Family thought that Charlie was on the money about the Beatles communicating with him was because of the song. It was like he could say to them "see, the Beats and I are mentally attuned to each other and this is one of their signs to us."

katie8753 said...

Thanks guys! Good stuff! So Henry Fonda lived at Cielo Drive? Wasn't he married, or did wifey kick him out and he had to stay in someone's guest house? He couldn't afford to get a Suite at the Plaza? LOL.

It's really amazing how many people lived at Cielo Drive. It's quite a list of who's who.

Hey Maude would you mind posting a link to that Virginia Graham interview? There are probably lots of folks who would like to listen in on that, including me. I didn't get a chance to listen to it last night.

I don't know about everyone involved in this case, but I think that Sharon probably dabbled in the occult back then. As Grim points out, it was suddenly "chic" to get into the "naughty".

And I agree, Charlie didn't invent drugs and sex. That was invented long before he was around.

katie8753 said...

Jay and Jane Fonda in the bathroom??? Wow.

I can't stand Jane Fonda after her Vietnam crap. Prior to that I absolutely adored her. I saw her in Barefoot in the Park and just thought she was incredible. As good as Natalie Wood. I think all her antics had to do with getting back at her Dad for some reason.

CarolMR said...

Was there anyone in Hollywood who didn't live at Cielo or visit?

katie8753 said...

I know Carol, right? Was there ever an "unknown" person who lived there. Like Joe Smith who was a traveling salesman, or Sue Brown, who was a stenographer?

katie8753 said...

Or I. Gypum the car salesman, or Jacques Strap, the underwear salesman, or Oliver Clothesoff the haberdasher, or Dr. Hairy Arms, the dermatologist? HA HA.

maudes harold said...

Katie,

Here's where I heard the interview:

http://murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/thread/874/manson-sinatra-me-virginia-graham?page=1&scrollTo=5607


grimtraveller said...

"You could say that the overriding philosophy was "eat, drink, fuck shamelessly and be intoxicated for tomorrow we die !"
Excess was in"

Lol and exactly!



The occult encompasses a lot, not just what's typically referred to as Satanism with the bloody sacrifices and such. Some of it has nothing to do with violence or what's usually associated when one hears the word Satanist. Many of the people associated with this case dabbled in the occult, how serious they were about it remains to be proven, but there's no doubt it was part of the milieu at that time and in those circles.

When you look at Roman's credits as director and writer they are rife with things dealing with the occult, trauma, conspiracy, power and other oo-ee-oo-ness.

Bobby still exhibits an affinity with the occult as shown by his art and associated symbology as well as his love for subversion and sublimation. He LOVES riding that line!

Susan, Jay, Sharon and others had those associations too and while it's unfair to state as fact they were creepy Devil worshiping freaks, they themselves walked into those associations. I suspect for Susan it was the thrill and maybe for Jay too, or power and control. I think for Sharon she probably played or was encouraged to play, but at the end of her life she just wanted to nest and have her baby. I think she was very traditional in her ideas about being a mother. I don't see her boiling and toiling over frog stew!! But weirder things have happened.







maudes harold said...

katie8753 said...

Or I. Gypum the car salesman, or Jacques Strap, the underwear salesman, or Oliver Clothesoff the haberdasher, or Dr. Hairy Arms, the dermatologist? HA HA.


Rofl!! I once had a doctor whose maiden name was Dyen! I kid you not.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Maude!! And I agree, I think those people were on the "verge" of that occult stuff, not getting into the nitty gritty of the actualities, but just "dipping in" so to speak. It was "chic" and "vogue" back then to naughty up. And I think they did that.

Roman is a wash. He was screwed when he was a kid hiding from the Nazis. I've gotta say, his growing up years were awful. His mother was killed by the Nazis. He's gotta hear that in his head every night.

Bobby is just a baby-boy that never grew up, tries to act like he's "with it" but is too old to pretend.

I'll listen to the interview. Thanks again!!! :)

katie8753 said...

Maude said: Rofl!! I once had a doctor whose maiden name was Dyen! I kid you not.

Thanks Maude! That's one for the books!!!!!!! HA HA HA HA!!!

katie8753 said...

Maude I listened to most of the Graham interview, I'll finish it today when I get a chance. Do you believe all that she's saying?

I'm not saying I don't believe it, but it's incredible that she knew all those stars. I guess I always just thought she was some jailbird that Susan blabbed to.

leary7 said...

Interesting, Grim. And I meant to say 'reasoned' and not 'reasonable'.
The best book ever written on the JFK assasination is called "JFK and the Unspeakable" by Jim Douglas. The author is a devotee of Thomas Merton and the book's perspective on how the forces of evil can coalesce and bring death to one's door is really provocative. No, nobody in their right mind would ever argue that the victims "got what they deserved" - that would be both a vulgar and insane thesis - but it is interesting to take a step back and look at Cielo Drive as a sort of lightning rod for dark happenings. And who knows with Waverly given Leno's gambling and the possibility that Rosemary dabbled in some sexual extremism. I still fixate on the phone calls Charlie made while driving around that night.

Ballarat Babe said...

Yeah that blog post is almost totally inaccurate. The "Steely knives" references Steely Dan not the murders. They were returning the favor after Steely Dan mentioned the Eagles in a song.

william marshall said...

Guess I'm a little late finding out about Glen Frey's passing but thought it be interesting & a nice tribute if someone wrote about him helping Sander's in his investigation before anyone knew who he was R.I.P. friend

maudes harold said...

Katie,

I have no reason not to believe her, other than she's selling a book. But I think she was an escort/madame in those days, in those circles. I tend to take this info and file it under contextual reference. If nothing else, it does show how interconnected and sometimes really freaky the entertainment industry is, and that's nothing new to me as I've read a lot about Hollywood history. And as we've seen since the internet especially, some of our celebrity royalty do and did have some real dark sides. She came across as believable, but I wouldn't put cold, hard-earned cash on that bet, I only do that on a sure thing! :)

Leary,

I think the whole Laurel Canyon scene was a lightning rod to dark happenings. oo-ee-oo

maudes harold said...

William,

Did Glenn Frey help Sanders with his book?? I missed that tidbit.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Maude. I've enjoyed listening to the interview. She's as sharp as a tack, and can really spin a story!! I'll finish listening to it probably this weekend.

Thanks Babe. I didn't know that about Steely Dan.

William I didn't know that Frey helped Sanders with his book either.

Leary, I don't think Manson made phone calls that night. I made that comment years ago that Manson probably called Suzanne to see if the LaBiancas were home yet, and Starship questioned me on it, and when I went back to look to find it, I couldn't.

william marshall said...

For anyone interested in the Glen Frey Manson connection refer to the 2002 version of Sander's the Family it Begin's on bottom of page 467

william marshall said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

Thanks William! I'm heading to the house. It's been a long week! Night y'all!!

Surgio said...

A lot of alligators in the article.

Manson tooling Doris Day? Show the pictures and corroborating sources. Doris had too much to lose by associating with a sawed-off low talented twerp like Charlie.

Charlie nearly killing a drunk man at Spahn's ranch I never heard of, although he did punch an inebriated stuntman in the stomach, hardly nearly killing him. Manson was fond of beating his women. According to one fairly solid source, Shorty Shae thumped Charlie rather severely and left him in the middle of the road at Spahn's.

Terry Melcher dropped Manson because Manson couldn't sing and had no work ethic, not because of fear. Terry was discovering talent for producers. Manson couldn't cut it.

That Sharon supposedly flat backed her way toward the top, well, that is the female way in Hollyweird. Men use brawn and intimidation to get what they want and women use sex and seduction. No secret there.

Leaving Steve Parent aside for a moment, the other victims at Cielo were the same in their pursuit of personal glory and pleasures, except for Abigail Folger. She seemed aware of something beyond herself. Her volunteer work for Negro rights and her efforts to help elect the first Negro LA mayor showed this. Abigail was a high quality woman in search of a worthy cause. She became disenchanted with the Negro and in later years it's likely she'd been a Reagan Republican.

Much is made of Manson's so-called racism. Yet I never heard him or his followers refer to blacks as niggers, spooks, apes, or whatnot. Since Charlie was in the can so often he knew the Negro very well. Politically if you peg Manson's slant, he was (is) a leftist, more likely a communist and communism is about equality. But mostly Manson was lazy and leeched off others because he felt they owed him for making his life miserable.

Did Manson have animosity toward Jews? Probably he did, although many of his followers were Jews or part Jew. Charlie's prison learning taught him that the Jewish mafia had it's hooks deep into Hollywood. East coast Jew mafia laundered money through movie-makers like Paramount and called the shots on what was made and who the actors were. Jewish mafia funded the Beach Boys as alluded to in the article. Charlie came to resent this. He listened to the current pop music and found it shallow and insipid, although catchy. Manson likely resented Jewish money pushing such crap while he couldn't catch a break with his superior lyrics.

Manson once asked the question: Why do you think Roman is where he is when he can't even speak English? This intimated Roman's Jewish connections. Maryland Monroe said as much about Jew control of Hollywood. When asked what it meant to become a great movie star she said that: it means I'll never have to suck another Jewish cock to get a part.

Sharon became Roman's shiksa,and she willingly did so to gain access. Allegedly, Manson in his pimping days in LA circa 1957 procured underage girls for Jew Hollywood sex parties, hence his comment: Instead of focusing on me, you should investigate what was going on at Cielo Drive.

I suspect Jay was still taking care of business while Roman was away, even though Sharon was 95 percent pregnant.

After the murders, stars of note claimed to have run across Manson. This article indicates that he was the drug and sex orgy kingmaker of those times. Yet, he was only out of prison for some 28 months until the TLB murders. If you reconstruct a timeline from Manson's release re-arrest, he had little time to make the impact the article claimed. Books about the Laurel Canyon phenomenon, give Manson a couple of lines. This article is entertaining BS.

Manson carved a swastika on his forehead probably for the lawyers and judges many of whom were likely Jews.

As far as Manson's charisma, this seems a retrofit in later years by Manson girls. They couldn't believe they got taken in by him. How many girls told him to fuck off?

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

I know Carol, right? Was there ever an "unknown" person who lived there. Like Joe Smith who was a traveling salesman, or Sue Brown, who was a stenographer?

Well, Rudi Altobelli was the landlord, he wanted top $ rent, he had connections and didn't hang with the riff raff. There are addresses like that in all the fancy areas of the world.
But if you think about it, who had heard of the Kotts or the Asins ? Who even remembers them ?

leary7 said...

the phone calls Charlie made while driving around that night

Just out of interest, where does the phone call bit come from ? Which of the passengers that night says that Charlie got out and made phone calls ? Can you recall where that can be located ?

maudes harold said...

I think the whole Laurel Canyon scene was a lightning rod to dark happenings. oo-ee-oo

I do too but in a paradoxical way. On the one hand, as Leary7 pointed out it would be insane to say that the victims got what they deserved. Yet at the same time, if one personalizes beings behind the dark arts and sees them as having no regard for human beings and as using, influencing and spitting humans out at their whim then one could argue that they opened themselves up to a certain measure of carnage. It's paradoxical because the agents of execution were somewhat random and a series of things didn't happen, which, had they happened would have made for a very different story, such as Sharon cancelling guests or not going to stay with Sheila Wells or Winifred Chapman not staying over.

maudes harold said...

Did Glenn Frey help Sanders with his book?

There's this pretty neat song by a Christian rock singer from the 70s and beyond called Randy Stonehill called "Teen King" and it's about Glenn Frey. He and Glenn used to hang out and the song is kind of a sideways look at Frey finding fame and how he changed. He throws in a delicious reference to him being a desperado.

Surgio said...

Manson tooling Doris Day? Show the pictures and corroborating sources

Hopefully it would've been private so no pictures exist. But one source is Manson himself, from a letter he wrote to a columnist called Bill Dakota. It can be found here. None of us want to believe it, I certainly don't, but Doris was a big Mum and free to make her own decisions. I am left wondering, however, whether Charlie said it just to get at Terry Melcher, knowing that rumours are sometimes more effective in destroying reputations than truth.

Much is made of Manson's so-called racism. Yet I never heard him or his followers refer to blacks as niggers, spooks, apes, or whatnot

It's not necessarily in how one refers to people, it's what they say about them and how they think about and behave towards them. In the latest book on Manson by George Stimson, Manson says he believes that the White race is more developed and creative than the Black race. He said "they [Blacks] don't know what to do unless we show 'em or tell 'em or lead 'em to water because they wouldn't know where to find it."
That's racism.

Politically if you peg Manson's slant, he was (is) a leftist, more likely a communist and communism is about equality

Paul Fitzgerald called the Family right wing hippies which Manson didn't like. But it was the hippy part. He is as far from leftist as it's possible to be. Far more Franco than Stalin.
But in saying that, communism is only about equality theoretically. In practice, it's about as much about equality as 4 is about 7.






Shorty's pistols said...

Little heavy on the Anti-Semitism Surg. That's pretty offensive to some.

Charlie and his little harem got blown off more than they got acceptance from many in the posh LA circles they ran in. LA types are used to pretty wild people that are in the music and/or movie scene, but Charlie and the Family were pretty far out even to those people. In the murder investigation, they talked to many people who had come into contact with CM & company. There was incident at a big party involving the LA trend setters in which Charlie and his harem were tossed from the party for being too far out and weird. The LA detectives interviewed a couple who had been present. The cops wanted to know if Charlie discussed Helter Skelter or threatened anyone at the party. The husband remembered Charlie, but the wife really didn't. As the detectives talked with the hubby they passes pictures of the Mansonites to the couple. When the wife saw a photo of Chuck, she exclaimed, "Oh I remember him now, the stinky little guru".

That's my pet name for Charlie, "The stinky little guru".

They got thrown out of more places than they stayed and partied at.

leary7 said...

sorry Katie, I may have shown my ignorance referring to those phone calls. Wasn't it in Vince's book that there were quotes from a couple of the car's inhabitants that Charlie stopped the car a couple of times and got out saying he had to go make a call? I don't have a copy of HS handy. I've just always thought it was a suspicious amount of time they spent driving around - seven smelly souls in a small car.
Charlie and Doris remains one of the biggest FUBAR images of all time. Again, excuse my ignorance, but is Doris still alive? Is she on record with any comments about TLB?

leary7 said...

has there ever been anyone in criminal history recast more times than Manson? This article is a great example of that. The dominant image of Charlie is of course the one Vince gave us but it is interesting to put all the other "spins" on Manson up on the board. A large part of that is of course that Charlie is an engaging and provocative guy - as well as being our most accepted figure of pure evil.

CarolMR said...

Leary, Doris is still alive. She was interviewed several years ago by Bill O'Reilly, but it was a telephone interview. We didn't see her on screen. She sounded great. Talked about her career and her animals. Nothing about TLB.

Surgio said...

Grim: I asked for unimpeachable sources and witnesses to the so called DD and Manson tryst. I read a rambling letter by Manson in which he alludes to Doris. Isn't this Manson fellow a convicted murderer? Some source. Where are the other witnesses? By now someone would have stepped forward if the DD-Manson thing could stand. I don't care one way or the other. I want believable corroboration that's all. Manson was a horrible manipulator and maybe this was a way to get back at Terry. Just ask Susan Atkins about Charlies manipulating ways...oh, sorry you can't.

Manson's take on black character and nature is merely his observation. He was acknowledging what he and many others simply observed. It's not racism to comment on black dysfunction in the modern world.

Quoting Paul Fitzgerald's opinion doesn't make Manson and his Family right wingers. It's Paul's take, that's all. Rush Limbaugh has called Chuck Manson a lefty. Look at the life "style" and propaganda spouted by Manson and the girls. He believed that "nobody owned nothing" and what anyone had was his and the Family's as well. At the ranch they shared meals, sex, and clothes equally. Basically they were leeches.

Hippies lived in Communes which means common which in turn means communist. The hippie culture fell apart due to its internal contradictions just as Soviet Communism did.

leary7 said...

thanks Carol. I wouldn't expect Doris to discuss such a subject in that format. I was just wondering to myself if Doris or Candace ever talked about TLB in any format.
I am always blown away when I watch Candace in one of my old favorite films "Starting Over" with Burt Reynolds where they are in a grocery store and trying to decide which coffee to buy before they finally settle on Folgers. I always wonder if Candace thought of Abigail while shooting that scene.

katie8753 said...

Leary I read Candice Bergen's autobio and she does talk about Melcher, Cielo Drive and the murders briefly. After we found out the Manson Family killed those at Cielo Drive, she said she yelled at Terry "THAT COULD HAVE BEEN ME!!!"

I agree, I doubt that Doris would talk about the murders. She probably just wants to forget her son was ever associated with Manson. And I sincerely doubt Doris would have anything to do with Manson. She wasn't some underage kid with "Daddy issues", she was a grown, successful woman.

grimtraveller said...

Surgio said...

Grim: I asked for unimpeachable sources and witnesses to the so called DD and Manson tryst

You asked for pictures and corroborating sources. Where are you or anyone else going to get pictures of Charles Manson in the clinches with Doris Day ? Cartoon porn is about the only place you're likely to find that !
What corroborating source would satisfy you ? Even if Doris herself came out and said "yeah, Charlie and I got it on once or twice" does that make it instantly believable ? Look at how many people were "supposed" to be at 10050 Cielo Drive on the night of August 8th...
I've only ever seen the Doris/Charlie thing as a rumour. The only place I've ever actually seen it stated is by Charles Manson and even then, he doesn't come right out and say that they had a fling 'ting. But it was the closest thing that I know of from anyone directly involved. I wasn't offering it as proof. Like many statements in this case, if I can I'll point a person to them for the express purpose of enabling them to know what a particular source has said {especially if they've asked}, whether they be a convicted murderer or witness that said two of the investigating cops pumped them for a share of the reward money.
Try not to confuse the giving of information with the believing of it.

Manson's take on black character and nature is merely his observation. He was acknowledging what he and many others simply observed. It's not racism to comment on black dysfunction in the modern world

That statement is borderline racist in itself. To talk of "black dysfunction", "black character" and "black nature" as mere observations in defence of statements tantamount to saying that all they do is copy "whites" and that "blacks" can't do anything themselves, is racist. It is characterizing an entire race of people.
If Manson or yourself for that matter, had said something prefaced by "I've noticed among many Black people....." then straight away, a context is given that doesn't herd every Black person into one homogenous lump. And would not be racist. It may not be complimentary or particularly nice, the observation that follows, but it's unlikely it would be racist.
It's interesting that you defend Charlie's comments by stating they are just his take. My earlier point was that he is racist. And evidence of that is his take, both past and present, for it is reflective of where he's at. Most people that I know or hear speaking about it tend to think that racism/racist means "doesn't like a particular race." Like or dislike has got little to do with it. In history's past, many benevolent types were racist because much of their benevolence sprang from the belief that the people they were being benevolent towards couldn't do for themselves what they would do for them.

grimtraveller said...

Surgio said...

Quoting Paul Fitzgerald's opinion doesn't make Manson and his Family right wingers. It's Paul's take, that's all

I never said it did. I was demonstrating that someone on the liberal left saw Manson and the Family as being on the right and that when described as a right wing Hippy, Manson's objection was not to the right wing part, but to the Hippy part. He did not like Hippies though he said in court they were nice people or words to that effect, he did not see himself as a Hippy and a number of his friends and associates from those days have attested to these a number of times. He was and still is always far more vocal and rich in praise about the Southern American, slave owning, right wing states of America's past than about the liberal Northern states that are primarily responsible for the creation of the USA, far more likely to comment on Hitler and where he stood than on Stalin, Lenin or Castro. He is at his most sarcastic and savage when he refers to himself as a "Hippy cult leader" because he hates the idea of people seeing him as a cult leader.....and a Hippy.


Look at the life "style" and propaganda spouted by Manson and the girls. He believed that "nobody owned nothing" and what anyone had was his and the Family's as well. At the ranch they shared meals, sex, and clothes equally

Other than no one owning property, that's hardly communism. If you took out the shared sex, that could apply to many an African tribe or a kibbutz in Israel. The way the Family lived wasn't out of some loyalty and adherence to communism, it was out of distaste towards middle class, materialistic, corporate driven America that frowned on free expression {sexually, musically, narcotically, artistically, lifestyle choice wise, religiously & spiritually etc} in reality which is partly why so many different influences and ideas and alternatives from other regions of the world came to be adopted, at least for a while, in those times. There was a mish mash of elements, of which communism was one, but not the sole arbiter.
Ironically, had Family style communes sprung up in Soviet USSR, East Germany and Romania, they would have been crushed because they were seen as infected, degenerate examples of the Western decadence that the communistic leaders of those nations tried to portray the West as being.

leary7 said...

Wasn't it in Vince's book that there were quotes from a couple of the car's inhabitants that Charlie stopped the car a couple of times and got out saying he had to go make a call?

I don't recall it in HS but wherever it is, it's gathered momentum in recent times.

katie8753 said...

And I sincerely doubt Doris would have anything to do with Manson. She wasn't some underage kid with "Daddy issues", she was a grown, successful woman

Underage kids with "Daddy issues" grow up into grown mature adult women with Daddy issues. Being successful doesn't sort out all the underlying issues that we might have. In fact, in many ways, being successful might make the situation worse because those issues get sidelined or masked over or ignored and then later, just when one least expects it, Ker~blammo ! Up it pops. One wonders about some of those women that end up marrying 5, 6, 7 times. They're not all exactly immature "girlies" with Daddy issues. Doris herself has been married four times. Terry Melcher's stepdad but the one whose name he adopted was her third husband.
In any case, Doris might've had underlying Daddy issues because her Mum and Dad split up while she was young.
But it is an interesting notion: how many females ended up with Charlie that had good, strong relationships with their Dads ? We can see that Pat and to a lesser degree Leslie did after incarceration. But what about before ?

katie8753 said...

Grim, Doris may have been married several times, but that doesn't mean that she would look twice at a miniature Napoleonic-complexed weirdo who spouts death threats.

katie8753 said...

Before Charlie (BC) Leslie & Pat hated their parents. Pat was using her Daddy's credit card for Charlie's ventures.

surgio's said...

Grim: Yes you did imply that Manson and his cult were right wingers by quoting Paul. It was a cheap shot you dropped in sneakily. I countered that Rush Limbaugh claimed Manson was a left winger. That doesn't make it so no more than Paul's comment makes it so Manson was to the right. Yet when you looking at the evidence it's clear that Manson had leftish tendencies: commune style living, radical environmentalism (ATWA), disregard for private property, and disrespect for law and order among a few of his characteristics. Law and order is a most defining element of the right wing.

Manson and the girls showed a lot of sympathy for blacks in that they,(incorrectly) said that whites had held down blacks too long. In California at the time blacks had full civil rights, yet they burned down Watts their own neighborhood.

You say Manson was in solidarity with the southern slave owning south. I never heard that. The girls never spoke of such that I'm aware of, and neither did Tex or Bruce. Race was not really a concern to the girls and other hangers-on at Spahn's since the US at the time was about 90 percent white (and right). Manson raved about the race war but got no takers among the cult. It was only when Bobby the dumb-ass got arrested that Manson was able to fit race war with "get the brother out of jail" to motivate the killings. In all respects though, Manson was a street criminal and not much else.

You need to catch up on your US History. The founders in great part were from the southern aristocracy. The so called liberal states in New England have contributed little except for Mass-a-two-sh*ts back when sane people ran the place.

The original constitution died in April 1865 at Appomattox Courthouse thus giving birth to a central US government that knows no bounds. If Manson had sympathy with southerners then he was on solid ground. Yet his thinking, such as it was, likely never went that far other than declaring he was a rebel. He didn't give context to that.

You mentioned Africa. Who cares about Africa? Since the white man left, the whole continent has slipped back into the stone age. Africans will be enslaved by the Chinese at some point.

I too admire the German War Machine Hitler created. It was probably the finest in modern era. This doesn't make me a Nazi. The US and Britain fought German third stringers on the western front and had trouble with that. Were it not for Patton, the Western Front may have ended in stalemate. I think Manson expressed interest in Rommel's tactics in the desert that's all.

I apologize to everyone for misspelling Marilyn Monroe's name in my original post. I spelled it Maryland. I guess I've been saturated by black riots, black privilege, and black crime so much perhaps I was thinking of Balti-morgue Maryland, a powder keg about to go off again.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

Doris may have been married several times, but that doesn't mean that she would look twice at a miniature Napoleonic-complexed weirdo who spouts death threats

She might do if she fancied him. Who can tell ? It is not unusual at all for nice ladies to like "a bit of rough." We're human beings. We're not cars or computers. We have that element of the unpredictable and one might argue, unfathomable.
I don't believe Charles Manson was ever in the clinches with Doris Day ! I personally believe Charlie said what he said because he gambled it would make waves and sooner or later, someone would say "yeah, but what if....?"
There again, what if they did ? ☺ ☺ ☺

surgio's said...

Yes you did imply that Manson and his cult were right wingers by quoting Paul. It was a cheap shot you dropped in sneakily

I don't need to imply that Manson was a right winger because I happen to think he was then and still is.
You have an obvious problem with me, it comes out loud and clear in almost every post you have ever made referring to anything I've said, going back some months now. You're so caught up in it, that even when I try to answer you or help you with answers to questions you ask, you have to see everything as some kind of point scoring adversarial exercise.
Bon chance, Mom Ami.
Let me state again, so that you may grasp the point I was making about what Paul Fitzgerald said. There is nothing cheap about it ~ it was free. It was not sneakily dropped in, it was blatantly put in to give weight to a point. I was demonstrating that someone on the liberal left {Paul] saw Manson and the Family as being on the right and that when described as a right wing Hippy, Manson's objection was not to the right wing part, but to the Hippy part. He did not take issue with the right wing part. It's there for all to see in "Helter Skelter" in one of the parts where Vince Bugliosi meets with Charlie to "rap."
Incidentally, the whole left wing/right wing thing can be somewhat deceptive because you'll find those on both wings that espouse parts that would be more readily identified with the other. I was quite surprised some years ago when I read Eric Burdon's autobiography to find him saying that Jimi Hendrix in private wasn't against the Vietnam war because he had reservations about communist North Vietnam and China. And even when John Lennon was upholding countercultural values and aligning himself with Lefties and revolutionaries, he voted for the right wing Conservatives because he felt the left wing Labour party were taking too much of his money in tax {cleverly outlined by George Harrison in "Taxman" and Ray Davies of the Kinks in "Sunny Afternoon"}. Even politically over here in the UK, the Conservative party is generally "Euro Sceptic" and would pull out of the European union if it were possible. It's not common to meet someone on the right that passionately believes in the European union ~ but there are some and even in Mrs Thatcher's govt there were.
It took many here by surprise that it was the right wing Conservative party that were the ones that pushed same sex marriage through the redefinition of marriage debates and eventual bill. Being on the right is generally identified with tradition and upholding ancient values and rituals. It usually the left that are seen as the ones here that want to change stuff.
The right and left wings are not an exact science.

grimtraveller said...

surgio's said...

when you looking at the evidence it's clear that Manson had leftish tendencies: commune style living, radical environmentalism (ATWA), disregard for private property, and disrespect for law and order among a few of his characteristics. Law and order is a most defining element of the right wing

I would tend to agree on the face of it that Charlie did appear to have left~ish tendencies. In fact, more or less the entire counter culture on the face of it seemed to. But Charlie, by his own admission was a man of 1000 faces and much of the counterculture was riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions that couldn't be written of as a paradox.
Dealing with some of the points you outlined there:
i] At the time that he was free, he wasn't a radical environmentalist. He had an emerging environmental bent though it didn't stop him polluting the air when he and others burned the Michigan loader. But there are many environmentalists that are otherwise well to the right. Just as there are many to the left who are not at all rabid about the subject.
ii] If Manson had such a disregard for private property, why did he try to buy Barker Ranch from Arlene Barker ? Why would he try to get Cathy Gillies' Granny bumped off so he could acquire Myers Ranch ? Why amass such a cache of Dune Buggies with his own personally modded one ?
iii] He told Vincent Bugliosi that he personally believed in law and order. He has said for years that the court/jailhouse system is his Father and he abides by it's rules. He even had his own solutions of what to do about the criminal problem.

Manson and the girls showed a lot of sympathy for blacks in that they,(incorrectly) said that whites had held down blacks too long

It was not sympathy if you follow it to it's logical conclusion. The endgame had Black people relegated to a situation that basically mirrored the Southern States before the civil war. When you have Charlie, the day after Gary Hinman's death, inviting police to join forces with him and his crew to "wipe the Negro community out" and telling the cops "I know you hate them as much as we do...." as Deputy Sheriff Samuel Olmstead testified in court, I'm afraid most people can do without that kind of "sympathy."

In California at the time blacks had full civil rights, yet they burned down Watts their own neighborhood

Had you said that about more recent times, you might just have a point. To make that observation of 1965 without an examination of or attempt to explain why Watts went up in flames for 6 days with 34 deaths is kind of ignorant. But then, coming from someone who believes that since the white man left [Africa], the whole continent has slipped back into the stone age. Africans will be enslaved by the Chinese at some point, your biases are clear for all to see.

You mentioned Africa. Who cares about Africa?

Ooh, about 1,186,178,000 people and rising.

grimtraveller said...

Surgio said...

You say Manson was in solidarity with the southern slave owning south. I never heard that. The girls never spoke of such that I'm aware of, and neither did Tex or Bruce

But Manson has. He continues to. Look up interviews he's done since 2010 Like the 2011 Vanity Fair one. If you haven't already, read "Goodbye Helter Skelter." The info is out there. In one of his parole hearings, Bobby makes the connection between CM's Southern roots and his race attitude.

Race was not really a concern to the girls and other hangers-on at Spahn's

Race and by extension, the race war was Charlie's concern. By extension, it became the Ladies' concern. It was a topic of conversation for over a year with visitors and hangers on. It was originally called "the shit is coming down."

Manson raved about the race war but got no takers among the cult

That's not what the evidence of the years '69~'71 say. Susan, Pat, Leslie, Tex, Paul Watkins, Diane Lake, Brooks Poston, Catherine Share and others prove you wrong there. In both her autobiographies, Susan says the opposite of what you say there.

grimtraveller said...

Surgio said...

It was only when Bobby the dumb-ass got arrested that Manson was able to fit race war with "get the brother out of jail" to motivate the killings

At best, debatable. And it's only even debatable if you believe "get a brother out of jail", of which there are a number of reasons to cast major doubt on it.

In all respects though, Manson was a street criminal and not much else

That view sums up why you've missed so much of what he stood for and things he said. He was definitely a criminal and not a very good one. But he was also quite a bit more than that. Few people joined up with him in the first place to commit crimes.

You need to catch up on your US History. The founders in great part were from the southern aristocracy

I do need to sharpen up on certain specifics but I wasn't talking about when America gave Britain the old heave ho. I'm talking about the civil war. Although the Confederate States of America {"The South"} were never recognized by any other country, there was nonetheless a war in America, the outcome of which arguably paved the way to the America that has existed ever since. And there are still people that hanker for the pre civil war situation of which Charles Manson is one.

If Manson had sympathy with southerners then he was on solid ground. Yet his thinking, such as it was, likely never went that far other than declaring he was a rebel

You say 'likely.' How sure are you about that ? Would you put your house on it ?
I try to take on board the entirety of what a person says. Some of it may bore me or not make much sense but somewhere along the line, it will pay dividends.


I too admire the German War Machine Hitler created. It was probably the finest in modern era

It was for a few years. Then it became the finest losing war machine in the modern era.

I think Manson expressed interest in Rommel's tactics in the desert that's all

Charlie recently said to George Stimson "I think Hitler was a concerned citizen who tried to put some order into the world. People didn't see the reality of what he was saying. They still don't. He was a good man. They told so many lies about that guy. Can you imagine how powerful he must have been to have all that love stand up for him like that ? Look at all the people standing up, raising their hands for him.
When I was a kid, the way they portrayed that guy, man, I always thought he was a tyrant,[that] he was just a terrible person. But in the perspective [of Hitler's reality], you've got to be a terrible person. In other words, you can't be a "good" dictator. Benevolence only goes so far. If you're gonna survive.....you've got to be whatever it takes to survive. You ain't got no choice
."
I don't have an issue with his having an opinion. I'm free to disagree and I'm free enough to see the nuances.

I too admire the German War Machine Hitler created. It was probably the finest in modern era. This doesn't make me a Nazi

You're right. It doesn't. I think you come over as a borderline racist not a Nazi.

I guess I've been saturated by black riots, black privilege, and black crime so much perhaps I was thinking of Balti-morgue Maryland, a powder keg about to go off again

You are so cheerful and hopeful. If you're ever in London, give me a shout. With a handle like grimtraveller, I'll be pegged as the morose one when we hit the town !

Jean Harlow said...

Leary, Doris discusses the Cielo murders in her autobiography and Terry also comments on them in the book. It isn't very much - no major insights. Just that she heard about the murders when she was swimming in the pool and how awful it was. Then there's some discussion the strain Terry was under when it was discovered who the killers were and he had around the clock bodyguards etc. Not a lot of information but it is discussed.

It segues into how much pressure was under because of the trial, helping his mother sort out his stepfather's estate and the money stolen from Doris.

Terry couldn't cope so he drank and ingested both legal and illegal drugs to cope and he ended up having a motor vehicle accident that nearly killed him.

So while Terry wasn't murdered, he didn't come off easy after his relationship with Charlie.

william marshall said...

Anyone interested in learning more about Laurel Canyon in the 60's through early mid 70's Weird Scene inside the Canyon by David McGowan is a pretty good book very interesting how many of the famous musicians had strong family ties to the Military Frank Zappa Jackson Brown David Crosby just to name a few & of course the lizard King Jim Morrison his father was actually involved in the Golf of Tonkin incident that the Johnson administration used for the reason for us to officially declare war against North Vietnam

Dave said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cease2 said...

OK. So no one's gonna say anything, except for Grim - who's got a lotta class BTW.

We can only hope this Surgio is young. In which case, his stupid online comments are forgiveable. We all say and do dumb things in our immaturity. And, with luck, live to outgrow & regret them. And the web provides a safe haven for nutty rhetoric (ref: Mr Poirot's posting history - more comedy relief than deepest belief, we can hope).

In case this person IS a mature adult, then this racism ("Blacks!" and their darned stereotypical ways! etc.) is unacceptable and worthy of only scorn, ridicule and pity.

Perhaps this person is of such limited cultural exposure as to have missed such recent race skits as Lenny Bruce performed - a mere 50 years ago!.

It's all "Divide and rule", my friend. The Marxist Bolshevik revolution was based on "class". Hitler based his on "race". The dupe in both of these were the "masses" (you, ya dummy!). And the victims were cruelly punished for the power-plays of these evil, arrogant tyrants whose bidding you perpetuate in the hateful drivel you post.

Think. And examine your conscience.

katie8753 said...

Cease2, how dare you come on here and blast everyone!! And how dare you blast Mr. P!!

I decided to let people talk to each other, as long as it was civil, and it's been civil until you! I'm not going to involve myself in others' conversations, just let it play out. But you had to come on and with your rant about Surgio, and at the same time, put people down that have commented on this thread and didn't cause trouble.

Charles Manson was a racist. Long and Short. He said, and I quote "Blackie will win, but he won't know how to handle it, so he'll ask me to take over". If that's not racist I don't know what is.

Hitler based his on "race".

Is Judaism a race? Are gays a race? Because that's who Hitler was targeting. There are a lot of Jews who aren't Hebrews. Hitler was a piece of shit. Good riddance.

I happen to like Jews. But if someone else on this blog doesn't, am I supposed to rant and rave at them?

I don't think Manson cared about the South at all. He was in jail/prison for so long, all he did was glean and suck everyone dry on ways to bilk people.

You act like this is 9th grade history class. I thought we were adults.

If this Surgio is young, surely he/she has learned a lot more about racism than I learned years ago. And maybe knows more about it than I do.

william marshall said...

Right on Katie Mr.P has posted lots of good & interesting thing's on this blog we don't need this turning into the Col's type of blog where anyone with a different view or opinion is wrong

Cease2 said...

Okay, Katie. I won't ever post here again. I stand by what I wrote though. And respect that you have taken sides against me.

There was a time I stood up for you when no others did. Meant so little to you it has been forgotten, I guess.

One last thing though. I'd like to say... Take care Lynyrd, my friend - I'll miss ya.

Cease2 x

katie8753 said...

Cease I didn't mean you can't post here. I just felt insulted by your first sentence, like no one else cared enough to say something.

I do appreciate what you've done in the past. Sorry if I came on too strong.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

My thoughts on the matter:

I found 50% of Surgio's opinions to be valid and "on-topic", while the other 50% were questionable, arguably inaccurate, and borderline distasteful.

Bottom line:
He made a few valid points, but some of his comments seem to serve no other purpose than to insult and "instigate".

Unfortunately, when you interface with strangers online, you're going to experience some of that behavior.
It comes with the territory.

He did a pretty good job of spewing some nonsense and insulting several groups, without being outwardly "outrageous" about it.
(Some bloggers are pretty good at walking that line).

As an administrator, it's difficult to "referee" every discussion, while at the same time, avoiding over-censorship.
Over-censorship is not good either.

Having said all that, I can understand Cease2's opinion (regarding Surgio specifically).

As for Poirot... Cease2 shouldn't bring him into this.
(Although I must say, Surgio's commentary is eerily reminiscent of Poirot's style).
I'm not saying Surgio is Poirot, I'm just saying the style is similar.

As I said earlier , some bloggers are very good at walking the line between "provocative" and "outrageous", when it comes to making off-color comments.

Cease2 has always been a good friend and a valued blogger here.
I hope he will reconsider his decision to leave.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

Cease2, how dare you come on here and blast everyone!! And how dare you blast Mr. P!!

Cease2 didn't really blast everyone. I think he was surprised that others didn't pick up Surgio on some of the things Surgio came out with.
Personally, I was often amused by Mr Poirot although I don't think he meant to be funny. His ways and posts gave rise to some good, if heated, discussions.

Is Judaism a race?

Particularly with Judaism and Islam, it is not a simple question with a simple answer. This is where one really needs to get to grips with nuances. In England, when Muslims that are born and bred in the UK speak against the UK and uphold hard line Islamist {for want of a better term} rhetoric and views, you get loads of people coming out and saying "how can people born and brought up here be this way about their country ?" and they just can't understand it. I can.
With being a Jew, Israel is so strongly part of the equation, even for those that have never been there, that the religion, the cultural identification and the country are more or less the same entity or let's say part and parcel of the same equation, with a different degree of emphasis placed by each individual on each aspect. Lots of Jewish people do not practice the religion but will engage in the various festivals and see themselves as Jewish. Hitler viewed Jewish people as a race of people. It wasn't just a religion to him. That the German Jews were German was irrelevant to him. He saw them as being distinct from Germans.
In many cases, we use the term 'race' loosely and interchangeably.
Connection with other Muslims regardless of national boundaries is nearly always more important than the country they happen to have been born in or come from. When Malcolm X went to Mecca and saw Muslims of all nationalities and colours, it had more of a profound effect on him than joining the Nation of Islam in the first place.
But all of these things are nuanced and can't be rattled off in a sentence or phrase.

I happen to like Jews. But if someone else on this blog doesn't, am I supposed to rant and rave at them?

No, but neither does it mean that no one can comment on things that they feel need to commented on.

I don't think Manson cared about the South at all

Well, for someone who doesn't care about the South, he has said an inordinate amount of stuff about it.

If this Surgio is young, surely he/she has learned a lot more about racism than I learned years ago. And maybe knows more about it than I do

Why "surely" ?

Mrstormsurge said...

Hope Cease reconsiders

I just wish a group that discusses filthy thieving homicidal lunatic drug addled hippies could just get along peacefully

katie8753 said...

Thanks Stormy! Me too!

In 1971, a show debuted on CBS called "All in the Family". It was the most outrageous network TV show I had ever seen. And I fell in love with it.

Archie Bunker made fun of everything possible: race, religion, politics. And it was FUNNY! And the show also made fun of Archie and his bigoted ways. It was just good clean fun.

But today, with all this political correctness, you can't say anything without some "group" coming down on you. Which is sad, because it used to be fun to laugh. And we were all laughing at that time.

No one laughs anymore, they just jump up and point fingers...

katie8753 said...

grimtraveller said...

Cease2 didn't really blast everyone. I think he was surprised that others didn't pick up Surgio on some of the things Surgio came out with.

Well I took it that way, that he was doing a shotgun approach. I guess I overreacted.

Personally, I was often amused by Mr Poirot although I don't think he meant to be funny. His ways and posts gave rise to some good, if heated, discussions.

Grim, believe me, Mr. P knows when he's being funny. LOL.

No, but neither does it mean that no one can comment on things that they feel need to commented on.

That's true.

Well, for someone who doesn't care about the South, he has said an inordinate amount of stuff about it.

Well, this is where I disagree with you Grim. I don't care if you're listening to an interview from 47 years ago or 2 years ago, I wouldn't put much stock in what Manson says. He only says what he wants you to know OR what you want to hear.

Why "surely"?

The reason I said that is because when I was young, we didn't hear all this "political correctness" all the time. We weren't inundated by that stuff. Life didn't dwell on that stuff like it does now.

I grew up in the south and I really don't remember this being hammered away all the time like it is now. Nowadays, if a black person gets shot by the cops, there are riots, etc. But nobody mentions when a white person gets shot. Go figure????

I won't use the term "African American" because I think that's an insult to a lot of black people that aren't from Africa. Just like saying "Latinos" when not every Spanish person is from Latin America.

Ya dig???

I don't know what this Surgio's bag was, but I was just thinking that you guys were having a conversation and I didn't want to interfere.

Slappy McGroundout said...

"as well as being our most accepted figure of pure evil."

Then thank Deity that I'm in the minority. Since I'd rank one Lawrence Bittaker well ahead of Chuck in that regard.

Lastly, and by the way, if one also wants to know Chuck's standing the rich and the famous, well, he was a nobody, and that's why some felt safe in stealing one of his songs.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

Archie Bunker made fun of everything possible: race, religion, politics. And it was FUNNY! And the show also made fun of Archie and his bigoted ways. It was just good clean fun

We had a couple of shows like that here in the 60s and early 70s, "'Til death us do part" and "Love thy neighbour." Both shows were written to show the folly of racism and in England in particular, highlighted the changes that the country was going through with the influx of Black people that had been coming to the country since the late 1940s.
But "Love thy neighbour" ended up sanitizing the calling of Black people "nig nog", "sambo", "jungle bunny", "chocolate drop" and names of that ilk and weren't necessarily funny for those on the receiving end.
An interesting side trip ¬>very rarely have I ever heard Jewish people make jokes about how thrifty they are with money, the Irish make jokes about how stupid they are, the Scots make jokes about how mean they are, the Welsh make jokes about how they shag sheep and eat leeks, Asian people make jokes about how they stink of curry and say "velly velly good !" and live 27 to a two bedroom house or Black people make jokes about being lazy. But I've heard numerous 'jokes' of those type and more from White English people over a 50+ year period...
I agree that political correctness has gone too far in some instances but the general thrust of it is simply have some consideration for the way you refer to people. What may be "good clean fun" to one section of the population just may be making a living hell for another section.

But today, with all this political correctness, you can't say anything without some "group" coming down on you. Which is sad, because it used to be fun to laugh

It's not necessarily sad. I think that there's a more sinister undertone at play here. Those that want to be free to say absolutely anything about any group, quite simply do not want to be challenged on what they say. They want unrestricted licence to carry on an old status quo while ignoring the reality that that status quo went hand in hand with a general treatment of those groups that they would not have accepted if levelled at them. Can you imagine what the response would be if every time I replied to one of the female contributors I prefaced everything with "Yo, bitch !" or "Howdy hos !" and meant it and argued to justify it if someone complained ?
Political correctness is often misused in my opinion and sometimes goes too far and shuts down conversation by being so reactionary but at it's heart, it seeks to level the playing field. It is sometimes true that some people choose to take offence. It is equally true that sometimes, some people choose to be offensive.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

Well, this is where I disagree with you Grim. I don't care if you're listening to an interview from 47 years ago or 2 years ago, I wouldn't put much stock in what Manson says

Then how can you have an opinion of him ? If absolutely nothing he says is anything you will even consider, he may as well not actually exist. At best, it renders any opinion you have of him, well, moot. Yet, you quoted him a few posts back and the quote was used as evidence of the point you were trying to make. So sometimes when it suits you, you will take on board what he has said.
I make a point of putting stock in what people say. I can't comment on anything they have done if I don't. Just because you listen to, take on board and consider what a person says, it doesn't mean you believe everything that comes out of their mouth. Actually, one needs to consider that a person may well be telling the truth in order to determine if they think they're lying.

He only says what he wants you to know

Doesn't everybody ? I'm not going to say what I don't want you to know !
But here's a thing; sometimes, people love to talk or they have an agenda or they're angry or off their guard and they say things that actually produce the wrong response in the person they're telling or the person that is reading what they've said. I said a while back that I really dug George Stimson's book and in it, Charlie, far from being exonerated in the murders that occurred that summer actually lands himself in it through what he says in that book. It's not meant to land him in it, it's meant to do the opposite. But it lands him in it as far as I am concerned. And he has no wriggle room like he has had with Nuel Emmons' book.
Oh yes, I put much stock in Charles Manson's words ! I don't need Vince Bugliosi, Linda Kasabian, Susan Atkins, Pat Krenwinkel, Leslie Van Houten, Steven Kay, Paul Watkins.......they all help though !

OR what you want to hear

He wouldn't know what I want to hear. What I want to hear is what he chooses to say that time.

I won't use the term "African American" because I think that's an insult to a lot of black people that aren't from Africa. Just like saying "Latinos" when not every Spanish person is from Latin America.

Ya dig???


I dig but disagree. The term "African American" did not come from White America unlike many of the other terms previously used to refer to Black people. When Jesse Jackson used it back in the 80s, it signified a shift insofar as Black America was now using its own terms how they saw fit. It wasn't even a reclaiming thing like "Nigga" or a disarming thing like when gay people refer to themselves as "queer." In two words, you get 400 or however many years of real life history. It certainly isn't an insult. It's no more so than "Italian American" or "Native American." Perhaps 500 years from now it will cease to matter but given America's last 300 years, at the minute, it matters.

Nowadays, if a black person gets shot by the cops, there are riots, etc. But nobody mentions when a white person gets shot. Go figure????

If a man kills a woman in a domestic dispute, it doesn't always rate as much news time as when a woman kills a man.
Also, actual riots by Black populations in the USA are actually few and far between. And when they happen, it's usually the powder keg finally heating up to the extent that people say "enough !" I'm not saying it's right or good. But it's understandable. Same as when a woman who has been abused for long enough kills her abuser. I wish she could find some other way to sort it. But it's hard to feel any sympathy towards the abuser. I should. But I don't.

grimtraveller said...

Surgio said...

Much is made of Manson's so-called racism. Yet I never heard him or his followers refer to blacks as niggers

From Vincent Bugliosi's "Helter Skelter" from 1974:
"Though careful never to do so in open court, in our private conversations Manson often referred to blacks as 'niggers.'"
From George Stimson's "Goodbye Helter Skelter" from 2014:
"Manson is certainly conscious of his race {as are most people in this racially obsessed United States} and he does think that the White race is the most highly developed race in terms of ingenuity......so by dictionary definition ("Racism - a belief that some races are are by nature superior to others") that might make Manson a racist.....I did hear Manson say 'nigger' on perhaps three or four occasions over a period of 10 years."

As far as Manson's charisma, this seems a retrofit in later years by Manson girls. They couldn't believe they got taken in by him. How many girls told him to fuck off?

From Susan Atkins' "the myth of Helter Skelter" :
Why weren’t these young people able to see through his ‘con ?’ Because drugs and sex were things that were shared casually in the underground. Nobody but Charles Manson would have perceived these things as something you had to cheat people out of.
So, when people ask how members of the Family could ever have been attracted to Charles Manson the true answer often shocks and offends them ~ in 1967, there was no reason to fear Charles Manson. He wasn’t preaching murder, he was preaching love and peace (not out of any belief in these things necessarily, but only as a way of getting what he wanted). There was no reason to avoid Charles Manson in 1967. People often ask why members of the Family stayed with Charles Manson. Once again, the answer is often received with incredible disbelief ~ until the summer of 1969, there was no reason to run from Charles Manson. He could get what he wanted by playing the part of the pacifist hippie guru. No one suspected that this facade hid an all encompassing and violently dangerous self interest.
And, yes, if you had been searching for something in San Francisco or Los Angeles in the late 60’s, and you had run into Charles Manson, he would have told you whatever it was that you wanted to hear and you would have been taken in. You would have thought he was a great guy. You would have thought he shared your beliefs and your understanding of the world, and you’d have thought you could trust him.
But it’s hard for people to believe this


grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

believe me, Mr. P knows when he's being funny

I think there's a difference between deliberately being funny and making a statement in all seriousness that someone else finds funny. None of us has control over what someone else finds funny.

If this Surgio is young, surely he/she has learned a lot more about racism than I learned years ago. And maybe knows more about it than I do
But today, with all this political correctness, you can't say anything without some "group" coming down on you.
No one laughs anymore, they just jump up and point fingers...


Actually, the major difference between kids and young people of our growing up era {60s, 70s} and those of the 90s and beyond is that, at least in the UK, topics like racism are a normal part of the conversational landscape whereas they weren't back then. I remember in 1970, my teacher when I was 7, Miss Leadbetter, picked up virtually the entire class when they were making fun of me and my girlfriend Sandra who was white. The other kids levelled every objection they could and when nothing worked, said we could never have children because they would be zebras not human beings ! We were 6 and 7 ! Miss Leadbetter really went to town on the other kids. Things like race were rarely discussed back then among the young. Usually, I had to put up with statements that began with "people from your part of the world...." from teachers that never gave one any opening for discussion or rebuttal.
By the late 80s, this had changed to the extent that non White kids I used to work with would often justify their bad behaviour or suspensions from school by saying "the teacher was being racist" and as I dug deeper, I'd find that this wasn't the case most of the time.
My own observation is that most kids and young people of the last 25 or so years that I've known, heard or read, when compared with my day and just before, have no better an understanding of what racism actually is. They know the word, they have a basic idea of a vague application, they hear it spoken of all the time, they assume they are correct when they encounter it, it is spoken of in class debates and colloquially and in "society" but the understanding of it is often lacking.
It's not vastly different among adults either.

grimtraveller said...

Slappy McGroundout said...

"as well as being our most accepted figure of pure evil."

Bobby Beausoleil is of the opinion that Charlie has been one of the major contributors to the image that exists of Charles Manson.

TRUTH AND BEAUTY said...



"Bobby Beausoleil is of the opinion that Charlie has been one of the major contributors to the image that exists of Charles Manson."

Would you please supply the exact reference for this (either Vancouver or Harvard Referencing will be acceptable)

grimtraveller said...

TRUTH AND BEAUTY said...

Would you please supply the exact reference for this (either Vancouver or Harvard Referencing will be acceptable)

I haven't got a clue what Vancouver or Harvard referencing is.
However, I saw it here. Go down to the third quote after Charlie's and John Locke's. I'm not sure where the original Bobby quote was culled from; I suspect it could be an old entry from Bobby's old website.

Shorty's pistols said...

Vancouver or Harvard referencing would slow your average Manson Blog to a crawl. 99% of the posters (including me) would have no idea what in the hell that is or how to do it correctly. Grim has slogged along just fine and always gets his point across perfectly using his normal posting methods.

The racist barbs that have appeared in this thread need to go away, like now. I gave Surg a blast about his racist and Anti-Semitic comments upstream in this thread and I mean it. That shows immaturity and lack of thought and consideration. It needs to go and go now.

To Katie's point, I got into a dicey (but mainly funny) situation on the island of Dominica in the Lesser Antilles. Dominica is a Caribbean Island in the Lesser Antilles. The Island is 98% Black. The bartender (a local) asked my friend (An African American) what he termed himself racially. "African American or N****",he said to peals of laughter.

The bartender was 2/3 smashed and his monologue went the wrong way. His point was that the term AA doesn't show respect to the African population around the globe. Then commenced a discussion of what should be the term for people of African descent. There was a dozen of us and we never did coin an appropriate substitute. It was agreed that the American in the adjective was parochial and a broader term should be coined, nobody could come up with anything. "Black" was felt to be too confining and very dark skinned people only comprise a segment of that population. Smarter minds than our groups of drunks should be able to come up with something that is respectful and more inclusive.

There are ways to get your point across without resorting to racial slurs. Use 'em. For instance, if I wanted to tease Grim, I'd get on him about being a Brit or only being able to afford half a T shirt.

Marvin Blakely said...

Blogger Shorty's pistols said...

"Vancouver or Harvard referencing would slow your average Manson Blog to a crawl. 99% of the posters (including me) would have no idea what in the hell that is or how to do it correctly. Grim has slogged along just fine and always gets his point across perfectly using his normal posting methods."

Both are systems of academic referencing devised by top US universities in order that the reader may find the original source with ease. It looks like Grimtraveller answered for himself wilthout needing you to do fight his corner.

Shorty's pistols said...

M Kay.

Make it 98%, I guess.

Surgio said...

I won't spend a lot of time correcting Gremlin's thinking. He'll have to do that. Grim has described himself as an African living in the UK. Why not move to a grass hut in Africa and stop living off the comforts built by the white man? The world doesn't revolve around Africa. Under white paternalism Africa advanced very well in South Africa and Rhodesia.

Germany was defeated, after the entire world ganged up on her. Hitler had Stalin on the ropes at several points. FDR's aid to Russian was one deciding factor that prevented a collapse of Russian resistance. To point out that Germany eventually succumbed in no way denigrates her superior war machine. Likewise the Confederacy of the old South was eventually defeated, however, that southern army was perhaps, man for man, the most effective military machine produced by Americans.

Without southerners the US would not be the giant she is today. Southerners expanded to Texas and took control from Mexico. Because Mexico disputed the borders Santa Anna went to war with the US after Texas became a state. Under the superb leadership of Robert E. Lee, Thomas Jackson, and Jefferson Davis (Mississippi Vols) Mexico lost and consequently signed over all her lands from Texas to Cali. But I guess the South never contributed much to the US.

The South developed the only uniquely American culture, as opposed to dull, boring, and colorless New England and the Midwest. Ironically, during the Hippie years Southern Cali was on the verge of crating it's on uniqueness. Thousands of white kids came from all over the county to celebrate a new beginning. They didn't really give a shit about DIE-versity or black faces in the mix. The protest against LBJ should not have been about the war, but rather against some of the civil rights acts and the 1965 Immigration law he muscled through congress.

On the subject of culture, it always struck me how similar the Manson Girl's speech was to Sharon Tate's. Like southerners, the Hippie era developed it's unique English dialect. The Irish took English and improved it. Sadly they've now turned their wee island over to Nigeria.

Manson got two things correct. One was black dysfunction. He spent time in prison where he associated with blacks. He knew black strengths and weaknesses. Their strength was a sense of commonality and brotherhood. Their weakness was not seeing the consequences of actions or being able to look into the future and plan accordingly. After sixty years of experimentation we have Detroit, Baltimore, St. Louis, and many other cities safe and prosperous through the sixties, now ghettos of black crime.

This dysfunction Manson observed and caused him to sense certain things about the future. Thus he said that after the revolution blacks would not be able to run a modern civilization on their own. On this he was correct.

Manson struck at feminism against the thinking then. He told the girls that their job was to have kids. Somehow Manson knew that women's lib was an evolutionary dead end that would leave women unhappy and perhaps childless. It's a wonder more kids were not born at Spahn's. Perhaps it was poor diet and other health considerations. Susan said she got pregnant by a rich kid who put her up in a luxury hotel in Phoenix. I guess her eggs said, "this guy has resources and good genetics it's OK to get fertilized. "

Of all the movies, TV specials, and books I read on the Manson circus I never heard him directly say he admired Hitler. Forty five years later we have a book that purports as much. I'd prefer to hear him say it himself before he croaks. Anyway, National Socialism is a leftist philosophy. I never heard the girls use the word nigger, spook or so on. We have Bugliosi's word that Manson referred to blacks as niggers. Really? Hey Bugliosi, how about the O blood on the porch at Cielo? What did Linda Kasabian really do?

To short pistol, fuck off. Stop kissing Grim's black ass.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Surgio said:
"Germany was defeated, after the entire world ganged up on her. Hitler had Stalin on the ropes at several points. FDR's aid to Russian was one deciding factor that prevented a collapse of Russian resistance. To point out that Germany eventually succumbed in no way denigrates her superior war machine".


Allow me to respond:

First off, the Germans are great engineers.
Their tanks, planes, submarines, etc, were second to none.
I'll give you that.

I also agree, that the German soldiers were well-trained and very effective.

Thirdly, most of the German officers were great strategists.

Here's the problem Surgio:

The well-trained German soldiers and their finely crafted weapons were commanded by a complete idiot.

Hitler was emboldened by early victories... and consequently, his balls grew 12 sizes... and quite simply, he bit-off more than he could chew.
He made bad decisions.

#1)
If Hitler never went after Russia, he would have won the war.
Committing his resources to the East, was a stupid idea... and it was Germany's downfall.

Russia is a VAST area, and the Russians have the luxury of retreating for miles.
Hitler got himself in too deep in the east, and he couldn't maintain the long supply lines.

And almost LAUGHINGLY, this is the SAME EXACT mistake Napolean made in 1812!!!

Napoleon chased the Russians halfway across the globe... and the Russians simply retreated and burnt EVERYTHING in their wake.
The Russians left nothing behind.
Napoleon's troops eventually began to starve and freeze in the vast Russian wasteland... and Napoleon was forced to surrender.

History literally REPEATED ITSELF, as Adolph Hitler made the same mistake as Napoleon.

They say that if a person refuses to learn from history, they're destined to repeat it no?

The WHOLE STORY of Napoleon's defeat can be read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia

Yes...
If Germany had concentrated on the western front alone, they could have won the war.
Britain would have been completely eliminated.

#2)
Hitler's other downfall, was bringing the United States into the war.

The Americans were reluctant to get involved in the war.
They wanted no part of it.
The British were literally BEGGING the United States to join forces with them, and the Americans were just sitting on their hands.
(Note: THAT was to Hitler's advantage!)

ALAS...
Germany's stupid allies (The Japanese), forced the Americans into the war with their cowardly "surprise attack" on Pearl Harbor.

The United States was an endless uninterrupted supply line of weaponry to the European theater.
THAT cut Hitler's balls off.

The US was churning-out ships, planes and tanks like their was no tomorrow... and there was no fighting on the US mainland to slow them down!

-----------------------------------------------------------

IF Hitler had played his cards right, he MAY have won.

IF he had not gone after Russia so soon (or at all)... AND if he had kept the United States sitting on their hands for another year (which would have happened if The Japanese didn't draw first blood), YES, Hitler could have won.

BUT Surgio...
What good does "could have" prove?

An army is only as good as their chief commander... and THAT was the German's downfall.
Their chief commander was a lunatic.

Chew on this:
EVEN THE GERMAN OFFICERS AND STRATEGISTS THEMSELVES, KNEW THAT HITLER WAS MAKING BAD DECISIONS!
THAT'S WHY THEY TRIED TO BLOW THE FUCKKER UP, DURING A MEETING.

By the end of the war, Hitler was so deranged, he spoke of troops that no longer existed!

With all due respect Surgio, your perception is distorted.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Surgio said:
"Germany was defeated, after the entire world ganged up on her".

LMAO.
That is one of the most stupid comments I've ever read.

The world is supposed to allow the Germans to lay siege to everything in their path, and not respond??? LOL

If a bully goes out onto a playground and punches every kid (within reach) in the nose, and EVERY kid decides to ban together and kick the fucker's ASS... that's not a surprise.
Sometimes in life, you get what you deserve.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I've loosely followed the rest of this conversation.

I've picked-up enough tidbits here and there, to make a few points.

#1)
I'm an American, and BOTH the North AND the South have made contributions to our great nation.
And to say otherwise, is decidedly UN-American.

Massachusetts has the BEST Universities and Hospitals in the nation... bar NONE!
People travel from all over the WORLD to attend our Universities and utilize our hospitals.
Our medical doctors are numero UNO.

We're also the home of the famous "Boston Tea Party" and "The Old North Church"... the location from which the famous "One if by land, and two if by sea" signal was sent. This phrase is related to Paul Revere's midnight ride, of April 18, 1775, which preceded the Battles of Lexington and Concord during the American Revolution.

There are great and interesting aspects to BOTH Northern AND Southern states.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Surgio...

Grim Traveller is a friend and a gentleman.

If you make one more derogatory black comment, I'll give Katie the word, and she'll delete all your comments going forward.

You've been warned.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, I've got a trigger finger. Just let me know!!!!!!!! :)

grimtraveller said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I'm an American, and BOTH the North AND the South have made contributions to our great nation

I agree. I was pointing out that there are people from the Southern states that wish that the Confederate scenario had prevailed. I think Charles Manson is one of them.


Surgio said...

Grim has described himself as an African living in the UK

I've never described myself that way. I do not describe myself that way. My parents were Nigerians that came to Britain in the 50s to study and ended up staying quarter of a century. I was born in Birmingham and regard myself as English {and by extension British} with an African background. Britain began to go through deep seated and extensive changes in the late 1940s and I regard myself as having been fortunate to have been born here at the dawn of such incredible changes. Although we never thought of it that way at the time, the situation in the UK wasn't vastly different from the situation that existed in the USA.

Of all the movies, TV specials, and books I read on the Manson circus I never heard him directly say he admired Hitler. Forty five years later we have a book that purports as much. I'd prefer to hear him say it himself before he croaks

I don't think he necessarily modelled himself on Hitler. But his comments in a book from one of his most articulate supporters is good enough for me.

National Socialism is a leftist philosophy

But it was expressed in the most fascistic way during the Nazi period, whatever it was.

grimtraveller said...

To be honest, I wouldn't want Surgio's comments deleted. They are part of the goings on now and people reading them can judge for themselves. It would be a shame to delete their comments because mixed in with the daft stuff are points made that make for interesting reading and sometimes are worth addressing.
An old mate of mine used to say "speech is self revealing" and I always thought it was just about the smartest thing he said.
I don't know how familiar many of you are with a Brit comedy from the 80s called "The Young Ones." In one episode, this cop wearing dark glasses racially abuses one of the students in the house and it's so ridiculous and funny with it because the student is White but because the cop is wearing sunglasses he thinks he's Black. Anyway, I remember watching a rerun of this some 12 years ago and I remembered it from the early 80s. Then I watched it again some seven weeks later {Satellite TV repeats !} and they had completely doctored that scene. All the original dialogue had gone and the scene completely lost it's irony and humour. I can understand why they did it but it was what it was at the time it was made.
I kind of feel that way about posts on public forums. When I went through Col Scott's archives, seeing each person's posts over a number of years, warts and all, gave me a better sense of who they were and the journeys they had travelled and helped me understand why they said some of the things they said and positions they took.
The transcripts of the Tate/LaBianca trial testimonies are preserved in their entirety, even though the sustained objections are stricken from the record. So even though the jury can't use stricken testimony, it remains part of the record. That's been good for us so we can get a complete picture of what actually went on.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Surgio said:
"Germany was defeated, after the entire world ganged up on her".

LMAO.
That is one of the most stupid comments I've ever read


I thought even that was surpassed by Why not move to a grass hut in Africa and stop living off the comforts built by the white man? The world doesn't revolve around Africa. I only mentioned Africa in response to Surgio shitting on the continent and once alongside the kibbutz in an example of communal living.
And the reason I wouldn't move to a grass hut ¬> nowhere to put up shelves for my books.

Surgio said...
Grim's black ass

It certainly was the last time I looked.

strix aluco said...

Grim, I post here as and when I can, Living in a cabin in woodlands makes internet connections very hit and miss. However, due to the direction this thread was heading I am making a rare post.
I congratulate you , not only on your eloquent and interesting insights but also on your amazing dignity.No loss of temper or trading insults, you are a gentleman.I think I speak for many who were growing quite alarmed,angered and disgusted by recent posts on here, but the person it was directed at- you, remained calm and logical. I truly admire your stance.
Hopefully, we can get right back on topic now.

Venus said...

You're awesome, Grim!!

katie8753 said...

Grim you are a gentleman and a scholar! Cheers!!!!!!:)

Surgio said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Surgio said:
"Germany was defeated, after the entire world ganged up on her".

LMAO.
That is one of the most stupid comments I've ever read.


Show me where it's stupid, asshole. I doubt that you read very much anyway. To correct you: Germany had enemies composed of the US, Great Britain, the British commonwealth that included South Africa, Australia, and troops from the colonies such as India, and independent Canada. The allies drew on French units that survived and units from the French colonies, Polish contingents were attached to the allies and the huge Russian bear was to Hitler's east. That looks like a pretty big gang bang to me. Germany had Japan and basically Hungary and a few other weak states. Japan had to contend with the US and China thus was of little help to the Germans. Germany had the WOPs but they were useless. Italian mistakes were the reason Hitler dispatched Rommel to North Africa, armor he needed elsewhere.

Next time that you have something to say Lynyrd...don't let your alligator mouth overload your hummingbird brain.

To Black ass Grim:, A number of times in previous responses to other posts you seem to always work the Africa angle in. I wasn't shitting on Africa, they did that to themselves and still are. A little touchy are you there now Grimlin?

You said in effect that Manson was aligned with Southerners I guess as a way to emphasize his evil racism so called. You went further and said that the northern liberal states contributed most to the development of the US and the south very little. I pointed out twice that you were wrong and gave evidence which you didn't acknowledge. You indicated that Manson was a right winger. I pointed out with evidence that he was more in tune with the left. You managed some lame response like communal living in Africa.

Surgio said: National Socialism is a leftist philosophy

Black Grim answered
. But it was expressed in the most fascistic way during the Nazi period, whatever it was.

Yeah, what ever it was. Go to that grass hut and take down a few books and find out. Anyway, what ever it was worked out well until Great Britain became frightened of growing German strength and began to itch for a war where GB could again dominate Europe.

Surgio said...
Grim's black ass

It certainly was the last time I looked.


And you look at it every morning in the mirror.

Venus said: You're awesome, Grim!!

Venus, are you mudsharking?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said (Surgio)If you make one more derogatory black comment, I'll give Katie the word, and she'll delete all your comments going forward.

You've been warned.

Big deal. By the way I heard Katie over on TLBradio and she sounded drunk besides she didn't know shit from wild honey.

Back in the day a candidate for governor of Georgia was told not to say nigger on live TV during a debate. He said for sure, for sure he would never do such a thing. When he went live he promptly looked in the camera and said, "nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger".

There you have it Lynyrd... nigger, nigger, nigger.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Surgio,

You've demonstrated to the entire blog audience, who and what you are...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

They say it's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Surgio said:
"Show me where it's stupid, asshole. I doubt that you read very much anyway. To correct you: Germany had enemies composed of the US, Great Britain, the British commonwealth that included South Africa, Australia, and troops from the colonies such as India, and independent Canada. The allies drew on French units that survived and units from the French colonies, Polish contingents were attached to the allies and the huge Russian bear was to Hitler's east. That looks like a pretty big gang bang to me. Germany had Japan and basically Hungary and a few other weak states. Japan had to contend with the US and China thus was of little help to the Germans. Germany had the WOPs but they were useless. Italian mistakes were the reason Hitler dispatched Rommel to North Africa, armor he needed elsewhere."


Seriously man, you must be stupid.

The Germans attacked the Poles, the French, The British and the Russians.
The Japanese attacked the United States.

The allied nations (or, as YOU call them, "the gang") fought back and won.

It couldn't be more simple.

===========================================

Allow me to explain it a third time, since you're obviously kinda slow:

The Germans and Japanese systematically attacked several countries creating a "World War".

Do you understand the concept of "world"?

The "World" turned around and kicked their ASS.

Where's the confusion?

If Hitler was stupid enough to instigate a war against most of the free world (with only Italy and Japan as his allies), that's not my fault.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Grim's right.

I'm gonna let Surgio continue posting for a while.

He's only making an ass out of himself, and it's actually getting kinda fun.

Anyone reading this stuff, is gonna think he's a complete moron. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Off-topic:

A lot of the biased news sources have attempted to downplay Trump's chances at election, but truth is, he's steamrolling his competition.

Anyone who still doesn't believe Trump has a legitimate shot at the Presidency, is just kidding himself/herself.

This may prove to be one of the most interesting elections ever.

Personally, I'm not sure what to make of Trump.

I'm registered as an "Independent", and I still haven't made any final decisions.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thank God Jeb Bush has resigned, that's all I can say...

How ANYONE could even CONSIDER putting another "Bush" in office, is beyond me.

katie8753 said...

Hey Lynyrd call me. I have a question.

katie8753 said...

I've tried calling you, one ringy dingy, two ringy dinys....You don't answer. That's typical. When you call me, I always answer, but when I call you, you don't.

katie8753 said...

Well fine, I won't answer the next time.

Surgio said...

Lynyrd... the dumbass said: Seriously man, you must be stupid.

The Germans attacked the Poles, the French, The British and the Russians.
The Japanese attacked the United States.

The allied nations (or, as YOU call them, "the gang") fought back and won.

It couldn't be more simple.
,

Lynyd...You are a simple-minded fool. Public school victim no doubt or really low IQ. Germany attacked France and the lowlands after France and Britain declared war on Germany due to Hitler's retaking Danzig and the Danzig Corridor in Poland that was originally German, but ceded to Poland by the treaty of Versailles. Many historians and experts in international law believe that Germany had solid claims, but not as much to the Sudetenland.

In an ill-advised move, Britain made military guarantees to Poland. With such assurances, Poland would not discuss in good faith. Hitler negotiated the Danzig question for six months floating a number of proposals. When talks broke down, Hitler attacked and the unlucky Brits had to back up their military guarantees. The Frogs went along with British insanity.

When Britain and France declared war on Germany, Hitler had a threat on his western flank. He quickly moved to neutralize it by knocking out the French and trapping the Brits at Dunkirk. Unfortunately, he didn't destroy the British Army when he had the chance. Had he done so, the war in Western Europe was likely over.

As you seem to believe in your simplistic thinking, lynyrd..., Hitler didn't awaken one day and say, "damn, I'm gonna go kick the shit out of the Frogs." Nevertheless, America never needed to get involved in a European border squabble, we had no dog in that fight. Hitler's interest was always to the east not the west which is what he said repeatedly.

As for the Japs, Yamamoto knew it was a mistake to attack Pearl. He followed orders. Many a well-credentialed historian concludes that FDR provoked the Japs to bring the US out of isolation. Others present persuasive evidence that FDR knew the attack was coming and did nothing.

Prior to the war, FDR cut off critical oil supplies to the Japanese Islands. Without oil, Japan would grind to a stop. Facing starvation and strangulation, they looked to the Dutch East Indies and other places for oil and raw materials. The US Navy was in their way, thus Pearl Harbor. FDR was fearful that Japan would open a second front against Russia in the east that would give Hitler a knockout punch on Russia's western front.

In your dullness, Lynyrd…you over looked the question on the table: "If Germany had such a mighty military machine, why defeat?' I gave the reasons. The heavyweight-boxing champion of the world is a white fellow from Britain, presumably the best fighter in the world at this point. Yet if he were surrounded in L.A. by thirty wetbacks with knives, he wouldn't have much of a chance.

As far as who won WW2, it's debatable. Britain,lost a whole generation of fine young men only to turn their pathetic island over to Negroes and Rag-Heads. Western Europe is inviting Rag-Heads by the thousands in a plunge to the bottom of the shit-barrel.

In the US we're flooded with Spic and Somali niggers. Whole cities are no go zones filled with black and brown criminals. Won? Yeah sure.

My interest in Manson Crimes is several fold: evidence indicates a contradiction to the official story, Bugliosi's red flag of racism on Manson's part, the motives, why LaBianca, and other murders committed by the gang. Manson is but a creature that crawled out of the muck of the sixties. His motives are likely those as explained by Susan in "Myth…" But it may be as simple as POS Che Guevara, killer extraordinaire. Che killed innocents because he liked it. On a much lower scale, Manson may have liked it too, but not up close.

Well one can lead a horse to drink but you can't make him water.

So long, Lynyrd… you dimwit.

Venus said...

Well, I had to look up the definition of mudsharking! No, that's not what I was doing, I was just complimenting a poster which is something I've done before. I do it if someone makes me think, laugh or if I just enjoy what they've said. Period.

grimtraveller said...

Surgio said...

Show me where it's stupid, asshole

Simple. Your statement implies that "the world that ganged up on Germany" were the aggressors and the originators of the war and therefore wrong.
A statement can be technically and factually correct, while still being untrue when placed in context.

A number of times in previous responses to other posts you seem to always work the Africa angle in

"Always" is an exaggeration. I don't deny that I sometimes mention Africa. As I mention a number of other places and things. Some of the aspects of "Helter Skelter" are not strange to me at all and understanding much of the African take on certain things {such as community, religion, the spiritual world, prophecy} has been really useful in helping me to understand what Charles Manson may have seen in formulating some of his ideas.

I wasn't shitting on Africa, they did that to themselves and still are

You shit on Africa whenever you see an opportunity and when you don't see one you make one.
I've never disputed that much of Africa is in a mess partly of it's own making if you look at the last 55 years. Prior to that, naw. But many places and institutions have worked themselves into something of a mess.
It's the cyclical nature of life.

A little touchy are you there now Grimlin?

No. I tend to respond to points that interest me, for whatever reason that interest may be alerted.

and began to itch for a war where GB could again dominate Europe

You kind of damage some of your interesting and intelligent points by using nonsense for your punchlines. Britain knew it could not win a war on it's own and did what it could to avoid war, even when Germany was smacking up it's early conquests.

katie8753 said...

So, rock and roll, welcome to the Hotel Charlie Manson, you can check out any time you want, you just can never leave

If one looks at it from a distance, it would appear that the Family was on the road to implosion going into and coming out of summer'69. A number of people left {Ella Jo, Linda, Tex, Paul W, Brooks P, Barbara H, Sherry Anne C, Stephanie S, Kitty etc} and interestingly, when banged up and out of contact with him, Bobby, Pat, Susan & Leslie all fingered Charlie as being responsible for the killings ~ and then later {after contact was reestablished} recanted and then later still {once life in jail was their reality} recanted the recanting !
Gypsy said in an interview that she felt Charlie was under pressure due to people leaving which may have accounted for his increasing temper in the aftermath of the murders. The leavings kind of indicated something was amiss although it's easy to see that in retrospect.

Bobby said...

strix aluco said

DITTO, Thank you well said.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Surgio said:
"In your dullness, Lynyrd…you over looked the question on the table: "If Germany had such a mighty military machine, why defeat?"


Honestly Surgio, I'm starting to think you're special needs.
I answered your question three times.

The Germans were defeated because Hitler was a quack.

Hitler didn't view himself as a prize fighter surrounded by 30 wetbacks with knives.
Hitler didn't view himself as "outnumbered" at all.

Hitler viewed himself (and his people) as an invincible, undefeatable master race.

Hitler earnestly believed, that his "Aryan Supermen" could challenge and defeat the entire world.

He believed that his German people were so superior to the other "inferior races", that they could wage war with everyone simultaneously, and emerge victorious.

Hitler actually had sculptors and engineers build miniature models of the "German empire" (the gorgeous "Third Reich" city), that he was going to build, following his triumphant victory.

Problem is Surgio... he was a quack.
His people WEREN'T superior to anyone, and his army WASN'T invincible.


=====================================================

The cruxt of your argument Surgio, is that you want us to sympathize with the Germans.

That's not going to happen.

If the Germans were just sitting around planting flowers, and the allies attacked Germany for no good reason, I might feel a bit of sympathy for Germany.

The fact is (as Grim said), the Germans were the aggressors.

The Germans spent years building their war machine.
The Germans wanted war.

They got what they were looking for, and then some.

In the end, Hitler died a complete coward.
Rather than "face the music" for all he had destroyed, he hid in a bunker and committed suicide like a bitch.
That's your hero.

maudes harold said...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3REIGAl0Gdo

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hitler's last meal inside that bunker, was a big piece of humble pie.

One has to wonder though, who he fucked last... Eva Braun or his german shepherd?

Mrstormsurge said...

Lynyrd, is there any truth that Hitler suffered from having an unbelievably small penis and one very very tiny testicle? I read that this week.

Bobby said...

I'm really glad Surgio got lost. I respect those who entertained him. Grim is a stand up guy. I just can't take the folks that want to build up the WWII German side. I'm very fortunate to still have my Dad. He went D-day, bulge , Rhine all the way to the end. He only talks about the fun he had and will never talk about the hell. A person like Surge wouldn't concern my Dad in the least. But for me, man I just cant take dip shits like surge. They just infuriate me.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bob you ROCK!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Stormsurge.

I've heard that too.
I have no idea if it's true, but I wouldn't be surprised. Lol

grimtraveller said...

Mrstormsurge said...

Lynyrd, is there any truth that Hitler suffered from having an unbelievably small penis and one very very tiny testicle?

It's rather ribald English humour, from a rhyme that went {to the tune of Colonel Bogey's March}:
"Hitler has only got one ball
The other is in the Albert Hall
His Mother's
A dirty Scrubber....."

and no one ever gets to the last line so people would just make one up. At one of the schools I went to, the last line was "He had it cut off when he was small...." There's all kinds of variations featuring Hitler's henchmen.
Terrible poetry but it's the English way. Like the phrase "Dutch courage" {meaning to have a drink so one will be bold} was a pot shot at the Dutch in the days when Britain viewed them as rivals in Europe. It was their way of saying the Dutch only have guts when they're pissed. Or even "Double Dutch", which was the English way of saying "Holland won't amount to much ~ they speak rubbish that no one can get !" So double dutch is confusing language.

strix aluco said...

Bobby, My late Father In Law was one of the first British troops into Bergen Belsen. He will always be a hero in my eyes so any glorification of the Nazi regime makes my blood boil.

Grim, the version I knew as a child was
Hitler has only got one ball
The other is in the old town hall
His mother's a filthy scrubber
Poor old Gorbells has no balls at all.

Bobby said...

strix aluco said...

My late Father In Law was one of the first British troops into Bergen Belsen. He will always be a hero in my eyes so any glorification of the Nazi regime makes my blood boil.

Thank you for sharing both accounts, Very cool to hear similar perspectives from across the ocean.



katie8753 said...

I think that was Mel Brooks' big headliner in the Producers: Hitler only has one ball!

grimtraveller said...

Surgio said...

Britain,lost a whole generation of fine young men

As did a number of countries.
But victory with the allies in that war, while necessary, was really the end of Britain as it had been for the previous few centuries. Having fought to stop Hitler expanding his empire, it was impossible to justify clinging onto the one that Britain had.
Sometimes, especially historically, the chickens can come home to roost, the seeds that got planted yesteryear bloom into nightmare plants and those in the 'now' then ask questions but refuse to hear the obvious answers.

only to turn their pathetic island over to Negroes and Rag-Heads

My Dad came here in '52, my Mum in '55, I was born here in '63 and I can tell you through lengthy experience, these shores were not "turned over to Negroes." Black people in the main have had to fight for the right to be treated and considered as ordinary human beings. It's been a fascinating journey though and I'm glad I was alive during the genesis of it.

My interest in Manson Crimes is several fold

I think the convoluted and multi faceted nature of the case make it almost a given that most people will have a number of points of interest in the case.

evidence indicates a contradiction to the official story

That's debatable. The weight of evidence collected in this case falls into different categories and either the defence or prosecution uses the evidence in ways that enhance their own particular perspective. Suffice it to say, the Family did not begin to contradict the official version until the 4 defendants were already convicted. Even when Aaron Stovitz said in print that he believed in the copycat {and this, 3 months before the trial began} motive though he couldn't prove it, not a single Family member came forward to back him up. Whereas loads of people {one even before the Barker arrests} backed the much harder to sell "Helter Skelter."

the motives, why LaBianca, and other murders committed by the gang

If there was one event that really ties into the helter skelter motive {and let's not ignore the fact that Bugliosi presented it as one of the motives and even then, only as circumstantial}, it's the LaBianca murder. The copycat would have been a little more believable had events stopped at Cielo.
I don't think that all the murders {and I include Lotsapoppa in that} were in furtherance of or sprang out of the same motive but they were certainly connected, if even in a roundabout way.

His motives are likely those as explained by Susan in "Myth…"

I wouldn't disagree with that. I'd add to that though, that there was a mixture of motives and that they all resided in Charlie's acid enhanced being. Susan Atkins said so many different things from 1969 that almost any of the proponents of any of the theories can site her words as support....but it always comes at a cost because in order to have her words adding strength to one thing, there's usually something that it takes away from, thus wrecking one's overall premise.

But it may be as simple as.....killed innocents because he liked it. On a much lower scale, Manson may have liked it too, but not up close

This could also be true. Bugliosi made the point a few times. I think Charlie, having been kicked around all his life just reached a point where he saw no problem in reciprocating.

grimtraveller said...

surgio's said....

Manson and the girls showed a lot of sympathy for blacks in that they,(incorrectly) said that whites had held down blacks too long

To observe that one set of people have held another set down for too long is not necessarily showing sympathy, let alone a lot of it. It may simply be an accurate observation of what has actually happened. People in the West observed the Russian crushing of Hungary in the 50s and frequently said that people in communist countries were held down, but didn't always show sympathy. In fact, much of the time, it was simply to have a pop at communist governments rather than some deeply held simpatico with the held down populations.
That said, I think that there was a chasm between what Charlie personally thought about Black people and what most of the women in the Family personally thought about Black people. The women were young and of that age and generation where prior to meeting Charlie, there was more of a likelihood that they would have had an affinity with the civil rights movement. I think Squeaky did. Leslie certainly went on record back in '69 as saying that they had love for the Black race. One of Susan's friends in Sybil Brand prison was a Black woman, Roseanne Walker. During the penalty phase of the trial, some of the women made statements about Black people that would hardly be described as hateful {although Clem went to the opposite extreme}.
But that didn't really apply to Charlie. He had a different mindset to the youngsters and his thought and his reality is what moulded their actions. In a way, after the Crowe shooting, you can see evidence of this by the way Charlie posted armed guards in readiness of what he thought was an imminent Black Panther attack and such was his sway over the others that newcomer Linda Kasabian went on to describe the Family in her month with them as "paranoid of Blackie."
It should also be pointed out that the Family notion of "we’re giving them [Blacks] their turn, which they deserve" {which in essence was one of the vital stages of helter skelter} was pretty insulting. It followed faithfully Charlie's notion that Black people could not mobilize themselves to do anything vital without being shown how to do so, which, as I pointed out earlier is in itself racist.

katie8753 said...

Hitler was a shickelgruber, and probably gay. Go figure.

Mrstormsurge said...

To follow up on the race thing, didnt Charlie feel that once blacks acquired power that they'd be intellectually incapable of effectively managing things so they'd, naturally, turn to people like Charlie and his gang to manage things? Ad to this Charlie and hid girls post-1969 involvement with the Aryan Brotherhood and it's laughable to suggest Charlie and his girls didn't have anything but deep disdain for blacks.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

Hitler was......probably gay

Do you think he mentioned this to Eva ?

Mrstormsurge said...

To follow up on the race thing, didnt Charlie feel that once blacks acquired power that they'd be intellectually incapable of effectively managing things so they'd, naturally, turn to people like Charlie and his gang to manage things?

That's what I was pointing out earlier to Surgio. It's useful when one thinks of 'Helter Skelter' to not just limit it to a race war or a bottomless pit or being spoken to by the Beatles {all of which actually had demonstrable substance and parallels at the time} but to take it in it's entirety, from genesis to ultimate conclusion. And when looking at the conclusion, the notion that Charlie would "scratch Blackie's fuzzy head and kick him in the butt and tell him to go pick cotton and go be a good nigger" while the Family "would live happily ever after....," well, with friends and sympathy like that, who needs enemies ?

strix aluco said...

Grim. You are correct in saying people of colour had to fight for their rights. You are probably too young to remember signs stating "NO IRISH>NO DOGS<NO BLACKS I am not. They were common in boarding houses and hotels in London and other cities, as late as 1969.Shameful if you ask me.

grimtraveller said...

Surgio said...

My interest in Manson Crimes is several fold:......why LaBianca....

The LaBianca murder is in some ways more interesting than the Cielo ones because there appears to be no rhyme nor reason for them.
But there are a couple of pieces of information that may mean anything, something or nothing at all that may help in our understanding of why the house was chosen.
In a Vanity Fair interview of 2011, when asked about the LaBiancas, Charlie stated that as far as he was aware, the LaBianca house had always been empty. He'd been in there before, in 1968. He says when he visited Harold True, it was a house that they'd gone into to have sex. So he obviously knew the house and it's layout. In George Stimson's book, he states that he'd first gone to Harold True's house, then seeing that no one was in and noticing a light on and a dog next door, he'd gone to investigate and to his surprise seen someone in and he'd gone inside and even engaged the guy {Leno LaBianca} in conversation. At some point he had Tex in there but is always careful not to incriminate himself, stating he left Tex in there "to do whatever Tex did" and telling George that he remembers telling Tex, Pat & Leslie not to let the people in the house know if they were going to be killed.
So nothing particularly unusual {in the Manson sense of things} there. Until you consider three things. Firstly, Manson said he was going to visit Harold True that night and as we all know, the True house was next door to the LaBianca one. But Manson knew True had left the house at least 10 months before. We know this because in his January 27th '70 interview with Aaron Stovitz, True reveals a startling piece of information that I'm surprised no one has ever picked up on; he says that Charlie asked him if he could move into True's house in the fall of '68. Because True was leaving, he said he couldn't make the decision, that Charlie'd have to ask the remaining housemates. So Manson did, even offering to do all the cleaning and provide food. But the housemates said no. True went on to recall this 20 years later in a phone interview. In that phone interview, True makes the point that Charlie did the killings in houses that he knew. If you consider that on LaBianca night, Charlie, according to Linda and later Tex, Leslie cruised LA looking for someone to kill and there were reasons to prevent each attempt, one of them being that the house he wanted to do was too close to the neighbours, then it makes sense why he would have eventually earmarked the True house. One, because it was not close to the one next door. Two, because he may have been pissed off with True's former housemates for not allowing him to move in. We know he knew True wasn't living at Waverley so it begs the question why he first went up the driveway towards the former True house. Was he going after the guys that rejected his request to live there ? It should be stressed that if the co~defendants were telling the truth, then that night, Manson had killing on his mind. And he admits that he was "pretty loaded" which brings to mind another statement he made {I think it may have been to Maury Terry; it's one he did in jail anyway} about how LSD uncontrols the mind rather than is something used to control others' minds. So in a way, it was bad fortune on the part of the LaBiancas that they happened to get home that night at the time they did. I suspect that if True's former housemates were still living next door, it would have been them that got killed. Charlie obviously thought that both houses were sufficiently isolated as not to alert anyone.

grimtraveller said...

grimtraveller said...

He says when he visited Harold True, it was a house that they'd gone into to have sex

Not Charlie with Harold ! Just one that people would go into for privacy because as Harold says of that pad next door to the LaBiancas, "it was a party house...."

grimtraveller said...

Charlie, according to Linda and later Tex, Leslie

My apologies. That should read "Charlie, according to Linda and later Tex and Leslie.....!

grimtraveller said...

grimtraveller said...

Even politically over here in the UK, the Conservative party is generally "Euro Sceptic" and would pull out of the European union if it were possible

That was pretty accurate !
At the time I said this, the UK referendum hadn't been called.