Friday, October 30, 2015

Enough of the Circus side show... back to business

Josh said:
I think trying to rationalize someone who was raised in confinement, and probably not by the best role models, is a never ending process with no finish.

The "psycho-social" aspect of this case, is one of the first things that grabbed me. I'd love to roll-around in Manson's head for a week, and see what makes him tick. But having said that, I tend to agree with you. 

Trying to "make sense" of  "Manson" (and the crimes which ensued) from a standpoint of "mainstream reasoning" is, to a large extent, an exercise in futility. As you said, that study would be a never-ending process with no finish. History itself, is proof of that.

Manson's background and brain is so very different from the "makeup" and experiences of the average American, that understanding him in linear terms, probably isn't possible.

And let's face it... brutally killing multiple people in their suburban homes, in and of itself, is a "non-sensical happening". How do you really "make sense" of that? 

When Harold True was being interviewed, his interviewer was attempting to "make sense" of the perpetrators' thinking and rationale (behind the murders).

Harold True responded to his interviewer by saying:
"You can't ascribe reason to crazy people".

I think Harold was pretty accurate with his response. If these folks had great reasoning skills at the time of the murders, the murders wouldn't have taken place.

Josh said:
"I think things would have turned out much much different (for Manson) had Tex been tried with the others."

This is probably your best point, and I spent the better part of last night thinking about it.

In short, you might be right.
#1)
The girls echoed what Manson did in the courtroom. To some extent, they still exuded the "hippie persona" during the trial. They carved "X's" into their foreheads. They shaved their skulls. They demonstrated to the jury, that they were puppets... and that certainly worked in Bugliosi's favor.

Tex on the other hand, seemed to "sober-up" really quick when he was facing the gas chamber. He went to court looking like a Wall Street lawyer. He had a well-groomed haircut, a fresh shave, and a suit on. There was no shaving or carving of his head. Tex's outward appearance (and behavior) didn't really fit the description of "Manson puppet". That of course, may have presented a challenge for Bugliosi. 

I think Tex's appearance and behavior, would have boiled down to "peer pressure". 

The question becomes: 
If Tex had been prosecuted with his crime partners, would he have succumbed to peer pressure, and continued to exhibit "group actions" (shaving and carving) and "group appearance" in the courtroom?

#2)
When Tex's "participation" in the crimes became examined and detailed in the courtroom, it certainly would have pushed him towards the "forefront" in terms of culpability. It's impossible to listen to Tex's "participation" in the murders, and not become physically nauseous. 

Tex had SO much blood on his hands, that he may have overshadowed Manson as "most evil" (in the eyes of the jurors). This of course, would have worked to Manson's advantage.

#3)
Bugliosi's workload would have been increased with another defendant to prosecute. This may not sound like a major factor, but it may have made a difference.

Ultimately, we'll never know how Tex's involvement would have effected Manson's fate. But I will say this: I really don't think Tex's involvement could have hurt Manson.

Josh said:
"My interest lies in the last of the old time prisoners. CM was around before drugs and Reagan and all that."

Manson really HAS become a part of history. There's just no denying it. 

Manson's legacy will be as big and memorable as "Billy the Kid's"... probably bigger actually. I'm not sure I'd want to spend an entire lifetime behind bars to achieve that goal (LOL)... but, it's true.

And "Manson" isn't just national, he's "international". A very large portion of our TLB bloggers are from Britain.

Peace!

11 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I couldn't really relate to the rest of Josh's comments, so I didn't respond.

I think it was the Grateful Dead who said: "Take what you need, and leave the rest".

That's the point I was trying to make on the previous thread.
Everyone has SOMETHING of value to say, if you look for it.
You have to stay positive.

Peace!

Josh Bratt said...

Thanks Lynyrd, that's cool.
My thoughts are scattered and I'm not as involved as I once was. I think my main point is that given how dysfunctional CM and the ladies were, the justice system is just as bad, if not worse. Trial by peers...? Not really. Circus atmosphere, trial by press. The whole thing just seemed really ridiculous on all levels.
Hopefully some truth will leak through some day.
Maybe someday I'll actually sit down and organize my thoughts so they make better sense. Maybe someday I'll have more than five minutes of free time, at a time. :)
Raising kids is time consuming. Great post Lynyrd. You get my emails I sent you? Some treasures in there!!!

Josh Bratt said...

Also: I understand the outrage at Tex's murders, but at this point outrage only inhibits one's ability to look objectively and glean some lessons from this circus. One being: Be careful who you hang out with..... ;)
I think there's a lot to learn and take away from this saga, once you get past the terrible crime part of it. There are so many tangential aspects which garner interest. Death, gore, mysticism, religion, crime.....etc....
Good times!!!
I agree that CM will be bigger than The Kid. I love me some Billy the Kid. Look how big he got and they only have one picture of him and he was a two bit horse thief running with a bunch of adults......Charlie is immortal, but, like Lynyrd stated: at what cost?
Another good post would be profiling all the bloggers, traders, collector's hangin around this scene. They're as interesting as anything else. Without people like Katie, Poirot, Jim Robinson, Stuart, Stoner, Michael, Ben, Star, Brian Davis, Nic Schrek, etc etc, we would not be as readily entertained. Better than TV really. :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Josh said:
"Be careful who you hang out with..."


Ain't THAT the truth.
The communal experience seemed to deteriorate everyone involved... including Manson.

Without the group, I'm sure Manson still would have been a criminal of sorts... and some of the kids still would have made bad choices (heck... some of the kids were making bad choices BEFORE they even joined the group)... but it's probable, that if the group had never formed, these particular crimes (or, crimes of this magnitude) may never have happened.

Sociological studies have proven definitively, that people DO in fact, behave differently in the context of a group.


Josh said:
"I think there's a lot to learn and take away from this saga, once you get past the terrible crime part of it. There are so many tangential aspects which garner interest. Death, gore, mysticism, religion, crime.....etc.."


The revised edition of Ed Sanders' book starts with the following:

"The Manson case had everything--it ripped aside enough of the veils of Hollywood to titillate the nation's and even the world's interest. It had rock and roll, it had the lure of the Wild West, it had the essence of the 1960's with its sexual liberation, its love of the outdoors, its ferocity and its psy-chedelic drugs. It had the hunger for stardom and renown; it had religions of all kinds, it had warfare and homegrown slaughter, it had all in a huge moiling story of sex, drugs and violent transgression."

Years ago, Leary said "the case had several interesting elements".
(I still have that noted in the sidebar). LOL

I think everyone would have to agree, that it's the "several interesting elements" that have allowed this case to stand the test of time.


Josh said:
Another good post would be profiling all the bloggers, traders, collector's hangin around this scene. They're as interesting as anything else. Without people like Katie, Poirot, Jim Robinson, Stuart, Stoner, Michael, Ben, Star, Brian Davis, Nic Schrek, etc etc, we would not be as readily entertained. Better than TV really. :)


In a real sense, in terms of blogging, the "characters" involved in this subject, are truly the "story within the story".
There's really no doubt about that.
Through the years, the interpersonal relationships on these sites, and the characters themselves, are just as entertaining as the case itself.
In fact, at a glance, one might conclude that it's "the case itself", that's the backdrop. LOL


Josh said:
..."Circus atmosphere, trial by press. The whole thing just seemed really ridiculous on all levels."


The whole thing truly WAS a circus atmosphere, and at points even absurd.
But, one would be remiss, if they didn't realize that "Manson and company" were (to a large extent) responsible for the circus atmosphere themselves.
It's just a fact.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Josh said:
" You get my emails I sent you? Some treasures in there!!!"


I did get your emails, and Thank You!
I'm working on that project, and it'll be ready for posting next week.
I've just been really busy...

Thanks Again!!!
I'm sure everyone will enjoy it!

sunset77 said...

Off topic comment,

Apparently, a Polish court has ruled against extraditing Roman Polanski. A news article about it is --->HERE.

grimtraveller said...

The black and white picture of Tex in this thread is one of the creepiest pictures I've seen. It makes me want to involuntarily shiver !
Except then it wouldn't be involuntary !!

grimtraveller said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said..

"Tex went to court looking like a Wall Street lawyer. He had a well-groomed haircut, a fresh shave, and a suit on. There was no shaving or carving of his head"


Tex did everything to try and get off. He quit the family, he didn't try to escape when the sheriff came to get him, he fought extradition, he got depressed and let himself go in the hope that he'd go mad, he dressed very conservatively and cut his hair, he tried to look like he wasn't quite in his right mind in the hopes that the jury would think he wasn't, he turned as much blame on Pat, Susan, Linda and Charlie as he could ~ he later admitted that even though he knew God was getting to him, rather than trust God, self preservation took over and where the girls had been foolish enough to take the heat in trying to 'bad' themselves up in trying to get Charlie off, he followed their line and parroted things they said they did by saying they did them {denying stabbing Sharon and leaving that for Susan and leaving Pat to take the fall for carving 'war' on Leno, for example}. He even pleaded not guilty by reason of diminished responsibility and laid the groundwork for an insanity plea months earlier with his dumb psychiatric evaluation, which years later became obvious was hokum.
He even had a judge on his side, a judge known to hate the DP and who stated that he possibly would have arrived at a different verdict.

But he still was found guilty and had to admit to stabbing Sharon Tate and still got the DP.

Perhaps I'm just engaging in hindsight but if there was one person that was fated to go down for TLB, it was CW. Unlike CM, he was polite. Unlike CM, he didn't have a large coterie batting in his corner. Unlike CM, he wasn't perceived as a criminal mastermind who could subtly move others to do his bidding.
No, Tex was fated to go down for this because regardless of Charlie's charisma, regardless of the shock of young white American girls 'gone bad', regardless of the media and courtroom antics, the evidence showed in the most powerful and potent way, that he murdered, he dealt death blows to seven people. Linda's testimony, the overwhelming corroboration, the three girls in the joint penalty phase and that fingerprint sank him like the Mary Rose and Titanic rolled into one.
I often see it said that "when people think of the killing of Sharon Tate, it's always Charlie Manson that gets dredged up and not Charles Watson. Hardly anyone has heard of Charles Watson !" And to a large extent, this is true.
But it really does not matter.
He got arrested in late '69 and he hasn't hit the streets since. Charlie got the fame and infamy partly because he is quite simply a more interesting character than CW. He doesn't keep his mouth shut and can't seem to resist sticking it to 'the Man'. He always looked more interesting than Tex, he always said stuff that was more interesting than Tex, his history was altogether more interesting than Tex. Tex was pretty boring. Even when he was dealing drugs you don't get the impression of Tex, flamboyant outlaw, riding close to the wind, on the edge. But CM, even when he flopped and got arrested then released, he did it in style. That's why we barely hear about Tex.
Tex wasn't really that smart because his attempts at getting off failed big time. He's only thought of as smart for sobering up in the context of the death penalty being abolished and that had nothing to do with him. Being tried separately brought him no advantage whatsoever even though he and his lawyer obviously thought it would. Because at the end of the day, seven people were dead because of his actions.
Funny thing is, I see what he means about how CM got to him and influenced him but his defence couldn't work because he wasn't being tried for what he was influenced by. He was being tried for what he did.

grimtraveller said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said..

Tex's outward appearance (and behavior) didn't really fit the description of "Manson puppet". That of course, may have presented a challenge for Bugliosi


Having read through this transcript of Tex's testimony I'd have to say that he tries in every way to be seen as Manson's puppet but actually only succeeds in coming across like an idiot. It's a good thing that years later he came out and said that he was lying and in a mode of self preservation, because he is really infuriating in his testimony here, especially when it comes to VB's cross examination.
He didn't need to shoot himself in the foot, his guilt was there for all to see. Maybe it's the benefit of hindsight, knowing how the movie turns out, but whereas Charlie in his testimony never comes across as guilty {even though retrospectively, we know he lied through his arse and was never seriously questioned by the prosecution before the jury}, Tex lied so much and it comes across really powerfully. He says things that are simply incredulous. And dare I say it, he had no charisma at all. Even Dean Moorehouse was pretty charismatic on the stand.
Dave Neale's testimony on his state of being in the summer months prior to the murders would actually have done wonders for Tex if he'd kept his mouth shut !

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"Dear" ????