Thursday, January 23, 2014

The Myth of the $2 Million Estate

Ok, I am officially calling BULLSHIT on the notion that Rosemary LaBianca had an estate worth anything near $2 Million.

And it's about time too, as this should have been fairly well cleared up long ago, and many of us should probably feel embarrassed that we have allowed this to go on for so long.

Is it possible it was just a typo?  Groove on this:

As it often happens, this begins with a newspaper story (See Below).


Slain Woman Had Estate Of $2 Million

Friday, August 22nd, 1969

LOS ANGELES, Aug 22 – An estate of about $2 million was left by a woman found slain with her husband under bizarre circumstances in their expensive home, court records showed Thursday in Los Angeles.
Police have theorized the slayer or slayers were imitating whoever murdered actress Sharon Tate and four others the day before.

Rosemary LaBianca, 38, was found stabbed to death in the hillside home she shared with her second husband. Leno LaBianca, 44, a supermarket chain owner.

Near the LaBianca’s bodies, police found scrawled in blood words including “pig” leading to the theory the slayers mimicked those of Miss Tate, hairdresser Jay Sebring, Polish movie writer Voityck Frokowsky, coffee heiress Abigail Folger and 18-year-old Steven Parent. On Miss Tate’s door was scrawled “Pig.”

The LaBiancas were slain on Aug. 10 – a day after the bodies of Miss Tate and the others were found in her Bel Air estate, five miles away.

Superior Court Judge Ben Koenig appointed Suzan Struthers, 21, Mrs. LaBianca’s daughter by a previous marriage, executor of the estate. An exact breakdown of Mrs. LaBianca’s estate was not revealed in open court.

Miss Struthers and her brother Frank, 15, are Mrs. LaBianca’s sole survivors, court records showed. The LaBiancas had no children.

That's it.  Really.  There is nothing more to this than a newspaper story - which was never followed up on - and so, because it was the only newspaper story, it survives in the online ether for 45 years and drives us 21st century internet bloggers batshit crazy wondering how an immigrant woman in 1969 with a modest dress shop, whose husband was officially in debt up to his you know what, could possibly be worth a couple of million buckaroos?  Especially, when like it says in the above report, that an EXACT BREAKDOWN WAS NOT REVEALED.

But really, it wasn't.  It was only ever an estimate, a hastily made one too, which was thrown together by Rosemary's daughter Suzan and her lawyer, and it included an estimate of  "community property" which Rosemary would have owned along with Leno, some of which she probably would have known about - like real estate and such - and some, she may not have known about, like ownership shares in a number of racehorses whose total value might have been worth ????

The LaBiancas apparently died without having a will in place.  And so, it looks like Suzan was the first to lawyer-up and get moving in order to claim her fair share for her and her brother... while Leno's family (some of whom were his business partners like his own mother) and his grown children from his first wife, were still asleep at the wheel, probably still reeling from the murders.  And so, on August 19, 1969, a mere nine days after the murders, her lawyers filed on her behalf a Petition for 'Special Letters of Administration.'  This document, and others, may be found on the Truth on Tate-LaBianca website and it really is fascinating reading too, but now, to the point:

Suzan's petition includes real property value and income as 'unknown' and only estimates personal property value and income at $60,000.  But it also includes this juicy tidbit:
"The deceased was murdered along with her husband, LENO LA BIANCA, and there are businesses owned and operated by both deceased, and race horses, which are, or may be, community property, joint property, or separate property, and which need immediate care, operation, and protection."

And furthermore it states: "There is insufficient time to give prior notice of this application to the persons interested in the estate and such notice should be waived."  Hmmmmmm.

So...
Was Suzan really just being a good daughter and itching to be named executor, because if not, then some horses may have starved to death? Or... was she just sharper than the rest and looking out for her and her brother's best interests?  Or what?

There is nothing in any of the other documents (that are dated later) that would indicate that Rosemary truly had anything worth $2 Million lying around.  And it appears, that her businesses may have been foreclosed upon eventually, as well.  So my guess, and yes it's only a guess (however it is a logical and plausible one, as it is based on a careful review of the documents available), is that the $2 Million figure came about because that's the estimate that Suzan and her lawyers arrived at, especially when the worth of Leno's stake in Gateway and Rosemary's boutique and dress shop may still have been unknown at the time.

Or perhaps, the clerk meant to type in $200,000?

157 comments:

katie8753 said...

Starship, Bravo!!!

I've always thought Suzanne may have been in on the murders. She and her mother had gone to fisticuffs about her relationship with Dorgan. Her mother didn't like him. Rosemary had threatened to "cut her off" if she didn't stop seeing him.

Then she goes to Tex's parole hearing and "forgives" him? Get a life.

I never thought Rosemary was selling drugs. That was ludicrous.

katie8753 said...

There were only 4 people on earth who knew when the LaBiancas would be home that Sunday morning. Leno, Rosemary, Suzanne and the newspaper guy.

Charlie had driven around aimlessly for hours that night, got out of the car for a while, then drove straight to the LaBiancas. Somebody tipped him off that the LaBiancas were home. And it wasn't the newspaper guy...

katie8753 said...

Also, did anyone ever think that maybe Rosemary had a life insurance policy naming her children as beneficiaries?

sunset77 said...

About the only thing I can figure is that all the property owned by Leno and Rosemary LaBianca may have been considered "jointly owned" as they were married at the time of the murders. I think Leno (and Rosemary) owned grocery stores, plus whatever else they owned, house/s, coin collection, etc. It may have all added up to 2 million dollars. That number may have been inflated for a number of reasons. That's only a guess, there are many inaccurate news stories surrounding this case.

Off topic comment:

There is a story on the news about an ex-cop that shot a man dead in a theater in Florida for throwing a bag of popcorn at him. Curtis Reeves first court appearance can be seen HERE.

The decedent was Chad Oulson. I'm pretty sure his Facebook page is HERE. (if it hasn't been removed).

CarolMR said...

Thanks, Starship!

katie8753 said...

Sunset I read about that in the paper today. Evidently the guy that was shot was texting during the "previews" and Reeves told him to stop because it was making noise and when the guy refused, Reeves went and tattled on him. When he got back the guy turned around and asked if he had "told on him". Then threw something in his face, whereupon Reeves pulled out his gun and shot him.

He's trying to use the Florida "Stand your ground" defense, but no one's buying it.

SurelyYouJest11 said...

This raises some other questions for me.

1) Has anyone viewed the actual probate file? Looked for deeds of distribution and/or an inventory and appraisement?

2) If there were insurance policies they would not be part of the probate. Rather, they would be paid directly to the beneficiaries and would not be probated.

Interesting stuff

DebS said...

Nice post Starship. It is possible that the LaBianca's had communal assets totaling 2 mil but that was probably before the liabilities were subtracted. In the end there was no where near that 2 mil figure.

katie8753 said...

The police report states that Leno & Rosemary still owed a lot of money on that boat. If they had so much money, why not just buy it outright instead of financing it? That doesn't make sense.

katie8753 said...

Prior to buying the house on Waverly Drive, the LaBiancas lived in a house formerly owned by Walt Disney. They were over their heads. They couldn't afford it.

That's when Leno talked to his mother about buying her house on Waverly Drive.

Now I would think people with $2 Mil not only could afford to live in a nice house with no problems, but also wouldn't have to ask Mama for help.

katie8753 said...

And finally, if anyone wants to add that Rosemary was hiding money from her husband, which would indicate that she was a dishonest person, consider this.

In Pat Krenwinkel's own words, Rosemary's last words were "What are you doing to my husband?"

Now if you don't care about someone, you only think about yourself. Rosemary was not only NOT thinking of herself, she was fighting Pat & Leslie to get out of the room to help Leno.

Case closed.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Great topic Starship, thanks!

I tend to agree.
If Rosemary LaBianca was really worth 2 million dollars (at the time of her death), there should be more evidence of it.

The Second Homicide Report supports your assertion.

The Second Homicide Report covers the LaBianca's purchases and assets, from soup to nuts.
The dollar value (as well as, the loan amounts) for their Gateway chain, their home, their boat, etc, etc... even Leno's coin collection, are indicated
The breakdown, is quite thorough.

I find it very hard to believe, that the Second Homicide Report would discuss Leno's coin collection... yet fail to mention Rosemary's 2 million dollar estate.
That would be a whopping oversight, to say the least.

================================

ALSO...

The First Homicide Report supports Starship's assertion as well, by strongly suggesting that the LaBianca's were actually in debt (at the time of their demise).

Excerpted from the First report:

From Section(s) 6 and 7 -

"Subsequent investigation into the business dealings of Mr. LaBianca revealed he had been misappropriating money from his own company's treasury. The bookkeeping records of the Gateway Markets showed a deficit of approximately $200,000 since 1964. This deficit was discovered in June, 1969, by other family board members.

To the family's astonishment, it was learned after Mr. LaBianca's death--he owned nine thoroughbred race horses, including Kildare Lady, one of the more prominent horses. Mr. LaBianca was a chronic gambler, particularly a horse better. It would not be uncommon for him to wager $500 a day. Every racing day he frequented the various racetracks."


AND GET THIS...
From section 9 -

"Even though the LaBianca's lived expensively, their properties were extensively mortgaged and had personal loans totaling $30,000."

The First Report strongly suggests, that the LaBianca's were actually in DEBT, at the time of their demise.

katie8753 said...

I find it sad that Leno and Rosemary were slaughtered like hogs. For no fucking reason at all.

And all anyone can say about them is they were crooked.

What a way to go. I would hope that someone actually cared that they were slaughtered like hogs. That someone actually cared that they went home from a trip to the lake, and ended up mincemeat for what? Charles Manson's money?

Rosemary's daughter didn't care a bit. I find that very sad.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

DebS said:
"It is possible that the LaBianca's had communal assets totaling 2 mil but that was probably before the liabilities were subtracted. In the end there was no where near that 2 mil figure."

I agree.
On the surface, the LaBianca's appeared extremely wealthy... (i.e. they were the owners of a supermarket chain, a dress shop, real estate, a boat, etc.)... but in reality, upon closer inspection (i.e., after all liabilities are subtracted) they were not.
The First Homicide Report supports this notion.

==================================

Satrship said:
"So my guess, is that the $2 Million figure came about because that's the estimate that Suzan and her lawyers arrived at, especially when the worth of Leno's stake in Gateway and Rosemary's boutique and dress shop may still have been unknown at the time."

I agree.
It was either unknown (at the time), or the final figure was intentionally padded for dubious reasons.

================================

Sunset said:
"I think Leno (and Rosemary) owned grocery stores, plus whatever else they owned, house/s, coin collection, etc. It may have all added up to 2 million dollars. That number may have been inflated for a number of reasons."

I agree.

Panamint Patty said...

Or perhaps "An exact breakdown of Mrs. LaBianca’s estate was not revealed in open court" because of "national security?"

starship said...

Hi, Katie,

Remember the house on Waverly was owned by the LaBianca family forever, or long enough for Leno to have been born there. The second homicide report states that Leno's mother sold him the Waverly house for $18 grand, which would be worth about $110 grand today even though the last time I looked the house was assessed at $450,000. Pretty cool although the property has been extensively renovated. Either way it's pretty obvious that Leno's mother gave him a pretty sweet deal...

The report also says that leno had told his mother that he made a large profit on the sale of his previous house, the Disney one.

I think Rosemary had a life insurance policy worth $60,000 to Suzan but that most of that went to pay fees and lawyers and such...Suzan probably thought she might realize a larger payout later.

And as Patty likes to say....

there's more to come....

MrPoirot said...

http://cielodrive.com/photo-archive/rosemary-labianca-wallet-contents.php

Greenbax stamps in Rosemary's wallet. Conclusive proof she was not a multimillioniare

starship said...

I don't know about conclusive Hercule, as green stamps in the 60s were pretty ubiquitous. I remember we even had a green stamp store you could go to and use your stamps to buy stuff. As a wee lad toddler I pulled down a cuckoo clock off the wall and broke it...I pulled the chain thinking the bird would come out and cuckoo. My mother was mortified. I only can remember her twice having enough stamps to buy something.

We were not millionaires.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Off-Topic:

For a long time now, I've wondered why Starship always refers to Mr. Poirot as "Hercule".

So...
I finally broke down, and did a google search... and the answer became immediately obvious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercule_Poirot

LOL

(In case, anyone else was wondering...)

MrPoirot said...

Lynyrd there are far more books published about Hercule Poirot than Sherlock Holmes. Only the Bible and Shakespeare are more published than Agatha Christie's detectives.
How did you miss all that?

If anybody else is unaware of Poirot I suggest you read the early books written in the 20s and follow them chronologically up until Christie dies in the late 70s. In that 55 year span you will notice how Western civilization rapidly declines. A thousand years from now historians will use Agatha Christie books to document how the West collapsed. Civilized man probably reached his peak of advancement socially in the late 19th and early 20th centuries with the most rapid decline occurring between 1960 and 1970.

sunset77 said...

I remember S&H Greenstamps, I remember "Plaidstamps" as well. I once saved enough Bazooka Bubble gum comics to get a ball/strike indicator that umpires use at baseball games, I wish I still had it.

I also remember Dave Madden and Russell Johnson, Reuben Kincaid on the Partridge Family, and the Professor on Gilligan's Island. They both died today :(

bobby said...

starship said...


"Ok, I am officially calling BULLSHIT on the notion that Rosemary LaBianca had an estate worth anything near $2 Million."

Cool post Starship, thanks.

sunset77 said...

They both died today :(

Thanks sunset77, I heard a radio sports show talking about Rueben & the profesor today & dint know why, makes sense now.








katie8753 said...

Bobby, did you fall asleep with your hand on the "enter key" again? LOL. Smoooch!!

starship said...

Shit, I hadn't heard about Dave Madden yet. Damn.

Yes, Mr. Poirot, my mother was a huge Agatha Christie fan and I believe she would agree with you on your assessment of our world.

One final comment about millionaires...my wife's godfather was one of the premier plastic surgeons in Michigan...small town Michigan that is. His talents were world class and he got filthy rich from his practice and lived well, travelled the world but right up until they wouldn't let him drive anymore, if he saw a can by the side of the road he would pull over and stop and pick it up for the deposit money. He taught his kids to always do the same.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starship. I can't imagine a man being so sentimental that he wanted to buy his boyhood home. I think he needed mama's help with a "sweet deal". Even if he made money off that Disney house, he had a lot of liabilities, so the profit margin is minimal.

Speaking of green stamps, I used to save those back in the 70's. I pasted them into a book, and so many books would mean some free cheap crap item. I can't imagine anyone with money going to that much trouble. It was a lot of tearing and pasting. And after all that work, the reward was usually something trivial, like a cheap lamp or trash can. Of course, if you saved 100 stamp books, you might get something better, like a top notch iron. LOL.

I'm looking forward to your "more"! :)

katie8753 said...

I've always told my kids, don't judge a book by its cover. People who have money usually look like they don't....

bobby said...

Katie, I dont know how the hell I did it this time, but that's what I was gonna blame it on again.

CarolMR said...

The best Hercule Poirot was David Suchet on the PBS Masterpiece Mystery series.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

As a kid, I remember those tickets you'd win for playing skee ball.
Remember those?

If you saved like a trillion of them, you could redeem them for a pencil, or plastic whistle, at the bowling alley.

LOL

katie8753 said...

Bobby, LOL.

Leno was supposed to meet with his family about his mis-deeds on August 9th. They didn't meet because Leno went to the lake that day to retrieve his boat.

Was this trip so necessary? Couldn't he have retrieved his boat on Sunday, August 10th or after the meeting on the 9th?

Starship, do you think this was a ploy to postpone the meeting? Because if Leno emptied his pockets, moths would fly out?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Check it out:
http://studiophototrope.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/skeeball_tm_wp2.jpg

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, LOL.

I remember taking my kids to pizza places that had those video games that produced tickets and then when we went to redeem them, the good stuff needed a million tickets. The only thing they could get, after spending $50 in quarters, was a plastic figure or a Mortal Kombat key chain. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

That sounds pretty accurate. LOL

MrPoirot said...

All of Leno's debts could have been erased by just one big win at the track.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Spoken like a true gambling addict. LOL

starship said...

Yes, Katie, I wonder about the postponed meeting too...

Did Leno leave the boat up there the week before? Or did they drive it up and back the same day, basically?

And yes, Mr. Poirot, I'm sure Leno was thinking, I've got a hunch. I know a thing or two about gamblers, and I know a lot about debt. Luckily it's strictly bingo and lotto for me, but Lynyrd has made the point in the past, and it's a good one too...that when it comes to debt gamblers probably have more of it that's off the books rather than on.

starship said...

So groove on this, it's only 3 minutes long...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cFrpeOwU6x8&desktop_uri=%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DcFrpeOwU6x8

MrPoirot said...

Starship I thought Leno had left the boat up at the lake for the kids to use that week.
It would be a damn tough day to load a boat and drive the 250 mile rnd trip in one day.

MrPoirot said...

I might as well add this. Leno must have been very eager to check how his bets made out in the papers he just got at the news stand. He normally put the boat up upon immediate arrival home yet that fateful night he could not wait that few minutes longer to find out. He left the boat on the street and was murdered with the racing pages open.

katie8753 said...

Starship, they drove the boat up to Lake Isabella the week prior. They planned to leave the boat and Rosemary's son Frank with friends during the week, to return the following weekend, the 9th or 10th and retrieve the boat and Frank.

They could easily have driven back up there after the meeting on the 9th or on the morning of the 10th to get the boat and Frank. But Leno chose to cancel the meeting and go on the 9th to do so.

When they got to Lake Isabella, Frank decided to stay one more day and return with their friends, which he did, on the 10th.

Leno and Rosemary hauled the boat back on the 9th, arriving back in LA in the early morning hours of Sunday the 10th.

I can't second guess Leno, but I know how addicts are. They will come up with any excuse not to face facts.

The meeting could have been an intervention for all I know.

AustinAnn74 said...

Isn't it a damn shame that these people's private life was exposed for everyone to pry through. Whatever they might have been into, whether Leno was a gambler, Rosemary an international drug dealer as people love to say, or a lesbian, they didn't deserve what happened to them. They suffered horribly. Nightmarish, as Vince Bugliosi calls it.

starship said...

Yes, Austin Ann it is unfortunate. All of the victims were human with human foibles, just like the rest of us.

I re-hash this not to disparage anyone's character, but because I consider them clues which if followed may lead us to the real reason all these people were murdered.

Katie, Suzan was with them the whole day too, correct? And it's a small detail, but I don't know who may have cancelled the meeting for that day, August 9th, and as far as I know none of the reports say why or who cancelled it.

And Mr. Poirot again makes a nice point which may actually strike close to the heart of the matter as to why Leno didn't immediately put the boat away as was his usual way. So much so that Frank was immediately alarmed by it when he returned on Sunday.

katie8753 said...

Yes Starship, Suzanne was with them. They dropped her off at her apartment when they got back, stopped for a newspaper and headed home.

That is a good point about the boat. I also wanted to mention that it says in the police report that Leno always stored that boat in his mom's garage. It might also be that since it was so late (around 2am) he didn't want to take it over there and wake his mom up. He might simply have decided to wait until the next day.

MrPoirot said...

Katie he would not have left the boat on the street because the battery could easily be stolen from an outboard boat. Leno went to check his racing bets first. And just seconds before he got to read if his horse won he was murdered. Damn! I hate when that happens!

Matt said...

Starship, it wasn't just an article, and I don't believe that it's "bullshit".

Leno, at the time he met Rosemary was relatively wealthy and stood to inherit a great deal when his mother passed away.

While married to Leno, Rosemary is still sleeping with Frank Struthers and Reba Gage. After the murders, Frank Sr. tells police that Frank Jr will becoming into a large inheritance from his mother. Later, Frank Sr. accuses Suzan LaBerge of ripping off Frank Jr in his inheritance.

It is alleged that at the time Suzan had emptied out the house and, before the police could get to it, a safe at Gateway Markets and then threatened any of Leno's family members that got in her way. Some members of her family believe that Suzan had a hand in the murders.

While married to Leno, Rosemary seems to try a lot of get rich quick routes. She gets her real estate license, her insurance license, opens a dress shop, and eventually begins getting into real estate, stocks, and securities.

People assume that Leno's financial troubles were due to gambling. Others believe that Rosemary bled him dry by spending lavishly, buying a house that was beyond their means (Working Way) and eventually having him invest in real estate, stocks, and securities and forming dummy corps to hide their funds and avoid taxes.

While Leno's getting poorer, Rosemary may be getting richer and hiding the money from Leno in secret accounts.

To avoid financial ruin, Leno sells the house on Working Way at a large profit and buys the family home on Waverly. With that money he continues to make bad real estate investments - Myca Corp and a Riverside Parcel investment scam. And, begins skimming off money from Gateway.

Leno misappropriated $200,000 from Gateway. They had a combined debt of $30,000 "their properties were extensively mortgaged".

In the mean time, Rosemary is moving out of her truck boutique and into a real store front - and possibly opened at least 2 others and co-owned (good friend) Lucy Larsen's Pet Shop.

These are not suppositions, Sunset. They are all in the police reports (the second one in particular).

Matt said...

Sorry Sunset, I meant Starship :)

katie8753 said...

Matt, how does ruining Leno financially benefit Rosemary? Just because she was a lesbian doesn't make her a dishonest crook.

While married to Leno, Rosemary seems to try a lot of get rich quick routes. She gets her real estate license, her insurance license, opens a dress shop, and eventually begins getting into real estate, stocks, and securities.

How is studying to get a real estate license and opening a dress shop a "get rich quick" scheme? She had an insurance license?

The only thing I know for sure is that Rosemary cared a lot about Leno. During the last few minutes of her life, she fought to save his. That's not something a wife does if she doesn't care about her husband.

Matt said...

Katie, I don't doubt that Rosemary cared for Leno, nor do I think that her sexual preferences are factors. It is though a proven fact that she wasn't faithful. It is also a pattern of hers to marry for money. It is also very likely that she was syphoning money. Both Leno and her previous husband loved her enough that they were willing to look the other way.

I think that her behavior is explainable given her abandonment as a child. Sometimes when that happens people have a lifelong feeling that "there won't be enough left for me" and they don't think.

Does that make it ok that she was murdered? NO!

I think though that she DID accumulate a sizable estate in her own name, and I think Leno knew and decided it was better to bleed the family business rather than confront her.

This isn't an attack on a murder victim. It's an observation based on fact. My gut tells me the second LaBianca police report is spot on. God rest her soul.

CarolMR said...

Are Suzan Laberge and Frank Struthers half-siblings?

katie8753 said...

I think though that she DID accumulate a sizable estate in her own name, and I think Leno knew and decided it was better to bleed the family business rather than confront her.

Matt, I'm not sure what this means. Leno knew she was making money, but decided to bleed his family business dry? Why would he bleed his family dry because she was making money. Please connect the dots. I'm confused....

BTW, I don't know about California in 1969, but now I believe in most every state, money made in a marital union is community property. If he knew about it, it wasn't a secret. So what's hers is his.

BTW, I don't think you're attacking a murder victim. Leno was a murder victim too. I'm just trying to understand why Rosemary's l'ambition to succeed was frowned upon.

Some people want to make it look like Rosemary was into some deviant activities. Such as drug dealing. That's preposterous.

Anytime someone is murdered, their lives are taken apart with a fine tooth comb. It happens all the time. Even a Pollyanna can come across as the Wicked Witch of the East.

Rosemary settled into that house on Waverly Drive. It was modest at best. I've seen the photos. Do you think for one minute if Rosemary was some kind of "Manhattanite" that she would have settled? I think she was trying to make things work with Leno. That kitchen was at least 20 years old. Their furniture was prehistoric.

If Rosemary was the money-grubbing goober you're describing, don't you think that upon their arrival at Waverly Drive she would have snapped her fingers and ordered new carpet, new drapes, new appliances, and new furniture? All that stuff looked like it came over on the Mayflower.

Her associate at the dress shop, Ruth Sivick, thought the world of her. She even went to feed the dogs when they went to retrieve the boat.

Rosemary was as plain jane as apple pie. Sure she had ambition. So what? Who doesn't?

Some people who are making $5/hour are offered a much more responsible job and they turn it down. They like the easy stuff.

And others forge ahead and try to make more. There's nothing wrong with that.

Matt said...

Matt, I'm not sure what this means. Leno knew she was making money, but decided to bleed his family business dry? Why would he bleed his family dry because she was making money. Please connect the dots. I'm confused....

My contention is that she was bleeding Leno dry and padding her own bank accounts. Either Leno realized it, or he didn't. I don't know for certain but he sure as heck knew HE was going broke. Then I believe he began scamming from Gateway Markets.

From her first husband, Henry Martin, we know (from the police reports) that while Rosemary was with him, she was also having an affair with Charles LaBerge. She becomes pregnant by LaBerge, but moves in with the wealthier Martin until Suzan is born.

While Martin is away on business in Alaska, Rosemary takes off with all of their possessions, their 2 cars, and a valuable coin collection - Martin doesn't file charges because he still loves her.


She had an established pattern of gold digging long before she met Leno. But again, SHE DID NOT DESERVE TO BE MURDERED. I'm not yelling, Katie - I just don't want there to be any doubt about my point.

My point is that Starship's contention that the only basis for the belief that her estimated wealth at the time of her unfortunate demise was a newspaper article is blatantly flawed.

katie8753 said...

My contention is that she was bleeding Leno dry and padding her own bank accounts. Either Leno realized it, or he didn't. I don't know for certain but he sure as heck knew HE was going broke. Then I believe he began scamming from Gateway Markets.

And your contention is based on fact or innuendo from her past?

My point is that Starship's contention that the only basis for the belief that her estimated wealth at the time of her unfortunate demise was a newspaper article is blatantly flawed.

I'm sorry I don't agree. There is no factual basis for this estimated wealth.

There is no factual evidence that Rosemary was a drug dealer.

There is no factual evidence that she was hiding her assets from Leno.

There is no factual evidence that Leno stole from his family because of Rosemary.

Matt, we're talking about FACTS here, not innuendo about Rosemary's past. Just because someone used to be a hedgehog doesn't mean they can't become a swan.

I'm not yelling either.

katie8753 said...

If I got murdered (God forbid), and they started looking into my past, they'd find stuff.

When I was 10 years old back in 1963, me and a friend "creepy crawled" a house. Long before Manson thought of it.

The neighbors down the street were out of town, and we thought it would be fun to go there and mess around.

We went in the back gate and the door was unlocked. We went in and jumped on the couches and raided the fridge. It was all just fun. Then I went into their bedroom and found a big box of coins. I took it. Then the doorbell rang and it scared us. So we ran out the back.

I didn't know what to do with that box. I knew it was wrong to take it, but if I took it back, I might get caught. So I buried it.

There are so many things in our lives that can come out if we are brutally murdered by some heinous monsters with no agenda.

katie8753 said...

I've talked to people who have obtained a Real Estate License and it's very grueling. You have to learn the Real Estate Law and it's not easy.

I myself was an insurance claims adjuster for years. I had to take a month of grueling class, learning and memorizing the law to obtain my license, and I certainly didn't get rich quick. In fact, it was a headache. When people have a wreck, they yell at you.

I found a better way to make a living.

Rosemary wasn't a hanger on. She was a go-getter.

Why do people try to make her look like a moppet?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Matt,

I agree, that Rosemary had the profile of a gold-digger.

I also agree, that she was probably exploiting Leno financially, where/when possible.

I also agree, that Rosemary tried her hand in several money-making ventures.

I also agree, that she was liberal sexually.

I also agree, that Leno must have known what Rosemary was all about, and he evidently tolerated it.

All of those things, are evidenced (or, at least strongly suggested) in the Homicide Report.

What I don't understand, is how those factors (alone or collectively) PROVE that Rosemary was successful in amassing two million dollars.

As you said yourself:
"While Leno's getting poorer, Rosemary may be getting richer and hiding the money from Leno in secret accounts."

"May be" are the key words.
While I agree, that your theory is possible... it's just a theory.
And let's face it... a theory does not constitute hard evidence.

One thing seems certain:
By the end, Leno didn't have much left to bleed... and you can't get blood out of a stone.

Matt said...

Matt, I'm not sure what this means. Leno knew she was making money, but decided to bleed his family business dry? Why would he bleed his family dry because she was making money. Please connect the dots. I'm confused….

Katie, my belief is that Rosemary MAY HAVE BEEN socking away cash in a variety of creative ways. When a spouse does that, it’s likely they don’t plan to stick around for the long term. For the record, I don’t think drug dealing was in the mix with her.

Rosemary settled into that house on Waverly Drive. It was modest at best. I've seen the photos. Do you think for one minute if Rosemary was some kind of "Manhattanite" that she would have settled?

I’ve been to that house. It is far from modest. Los Feliz was then, and still is a really expensive neighborhood. It may be modest in terms some of the digs in Beverly Hills, but you have to have some pretty healthy cash flow to live there. Compared to where she had lived previously in her life Waverly was a huge step up. It would be for 99% of people reading this.

Rosemary was as plain jane as apple pie

Gotta disagree with that one, too. Rosemary was an extremely attractive lady. She knew it, too.

One thing seems certain:
By the end, Leno didn't have much left to bleed... and you can't get blood out of a stone.


And that’s exactly my thinking. The guy was solvent all his life. So was Gateway. In the end, Leno was in financial dire straights, his family was fit to be tied with him and he was about to be cut loose from the family business. All this while his wife’s businesses are apparently expanding. None of this constitutes absolute proof. I just think that where there’s smoke, there’s fire.The only way to prove it would be to acquire her probate records. Good luck with that, I guess.

For now, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I enjoyed the discussion. Thanks, you two.


starship said...

Hi, Matt,

Copy and paste from your post above:

It is alleged that at the time Suzan had emptied out the house and, before the police could get to it, a safe at Gateway Markets and then threatened any of Leno's family members that got in her way. Some members of her family believe that Suzan had a hand in the murders.

While married to Leno, Rosemary seems to try a lot of get rich quick routes. She gets her real estate license, her insurance license, opens a dress shop, and eventually begins getting into real estate, stocks, and securities.

People assume that Leno's financial troubles were due to gambling. Others believe that Rosemary bled him dry by spending lavishly, buying a house that was beyond their means (Working Way) and eventually having him invest in real estate, stocks, and securities and forming dummy corps to hide their funds and avoid taxes.

While Leno's getting poorer, Rosemary may be getting richer and hiding the money from Leno in secret accounts.


To avoid financial ruin, Leno sells the house on Working Way at a large profit and buys the family home on Waverly. With that money he continues to make bad real estate investments - Myca Corp and a Riverside Parcel investment scam. And, begins skimming off money from Gateway.

Starship responds: the above is all very interesting, but I am pretty sure none of that is in the second homicide report. If you have sources please let us know.

I have another post in the works which based on estate documents will also cast further doubt on the $2 million...

Matt said...

Starship, Those are my extrapolations based on what I read in the homicide report. I should have clarified.

I look forward to your post based on estate documents. That would indeed be interesting.


LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Matt,

The main obstacle for me in all this, is the sheer size of the alleged sum.

My guess, is that 2 million dollars in 1969 money, would be (roughly) equivalent to 20 million dollars today.

While I agree, that Rosemary was probably driven by financial gain... probably exploiting Leno for money (in front of, and behind his back)... investing what money she "attained" into business ventures... and also... quite capable of hiding her personal gains from Leno... that's a LOT of alleged loot!
And, that's a LOT of dresses.

For a woman to amass the equivalent of 20 million dollars (in today's money) with little to no money trail (or hard evidence) left behind, is just too big of a pill for me to swallow.
I need more evidence, to bump this "hidden money notion" forward, from speculation into fact.

Here's another significant stumbling block, for me:
It seems that $200K of misappropriated (1969) funds, was quite enough financial damage, to shake the foundations of the Gateway operation.
And Yet... we're supposed to believe, that Rosemary had amassed TEN TIMES that sum??

And all this, with no hard records left behind?

I don't know man... I just can't buy into it.

My guess, is that Rosemary probably did have a pretty penny hidden from Leno... but, I just can't subscribe to a figure that large, without proof.

==================================

BTW... here's how I arrived, at my very rough guess:

Things vary from state to state... even county to county.

But having said that...
The average per capita income in many California counties was roughly 4 thousand dollars in 1969.
The same per capita income (in the counties I referenced) is roughly 40 thousand dollars today.

Based on that... I'm assuming 2 million then, would be worth roughly 20 million today.

Course, I'm not a financial planner.

Brian Davis said...

the world must be off it's axis.

With all due respect to Starship and his well written post, I am actually going to side with Matt on this one. the 2 million notion wasn't only from the one newspaper article. And while Starship makes a great argument, I don't feel the 2 mill is a myth at this point. I also look forward to the follow-up. Thanks !

Matt said...

I look forward to the financials too. But keep in mind that Starship could sell condoms to the Pope.

MrPoirot said...

There was much ado in the Labianca family that drew a great deal of investigation by police like greyhounds after a stuffed rabbit. The police were so intent on catching that stuffed rabbit that they foolishly overlooked the writing on the wall that was the real clue. The cops stumbled onto the house the Labiancas had just sold which at one time was owned by Walt Disney. "We got old Walt now!", the cops must have thought.


LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

My Patriots just lost.

Bummer...

Panamint Patty said...

Yeah. Was Patty too harsh on Rosemary? It was just an idea, possibly informed by the institutionalized racism (eg, Mexican = criminal) inherent in her southern Californian background. She must admit she has no actual proof at this point that Rosemary was into anything shady, and she does not wish to disrespect the dead. PS Katie, you are a very good big sister for not yelling. And, WHATS ON THEM DAMNED TAPES?

MrPoirot said...

Patty a lot of the character smearing was the result of the police failing to connect the Tate and Labianca killings and following worthless leads so that they ended up with nowhere to go but muck raking. Cops had the Tate gun but lost it. They had blood writing on the walls in 3 murders but ignored it. Police refused to release what was written on the walls which would have told many people who the killers were. They had all but one of the killers in jail the week of the killings but let them go. I would not blame racism for the private lives of the victims being besmearched. I would blame an incredibly inept, arrogant police force that was refusing to follow obvious clues.

katie8753 said...

Hey Patty. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And that's okay.

I know there has been a lot said about Rosemary's "alleged doings" and I think they are based on her past behavior. What I want is facts. Just the facts. LOL.

I will reiterate that in the last few minutes of Rosemary's life, she was more concerned with Leno's life than her own. That speaks volumes to me. Her feet were to the fire. In that type situation, you show your true colors.

She could easily have blurted out "I have money. If you spare me I'll pay you handsomely." But she didn't. She just wanted to know what was happening to her husband. I can't imagine a wife who is robbing her husband blind, hiding money, bilking his family spending the last few minutes of her life fighting for her husband. She fought so hard that Leslie & Pat couldn't contain her. They had to get Tex to finish the job.

I also mentioned that the Waverly Drive house was not very impressive. Outdated. I was talking about the interior of the house...the furnishings, appliances, etc. It was a very small home, only 2 bedrooms, maybe 2 baths or maybe just 1 bath, I don't know. I know it was sitting on a large plot of land, which of course gives it more value. And Los Feliz was/is an exclusive area, which adds value.

In looking at the pictures, I see the carpet looks well used, the walls need painting and the kitchen is extremely small. They did have a big side-by-side refrigerator which was an update in 1969 from the usual small icebox. But from what I can see, they had that old 60's hard tile on the countertops and a very small working area. The living area and dining areas were very small too. The master bedroom was small, I don't know about the other bedroom, which was probably smaller. I'd say this house is around 1,100 square feet.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to insinuate the house wasn't worth any money. The only reason I brought that up is because I wanted to emphasize that Rosemary didn't move in in 1968 and start making demands that the house have a complete makeover. She was living there with her husband and making do, because it was a good decision for them.

And yes...I would like to know what is on those tapes! Either it's nothing...or they've found something quite interesting and are holding out! :)

MrPoirot said...

Even after the killers were caught and talked it was the news media that followed clues and found the discarded dark clothing the killers dumped out the car. Then the cops show up with a helicopter.......for what!!!!!! They didn't need a helicopter. They needed common sense.

Rosemary's sleeping partners and her net worth had nothing to do with the murders.
The same with all the other victims. All of them were raked over the fire because cops couldn't find the culprits for months because they ignored the obvious and this reduced them to start digging into the private lives of the victims. .

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, well said. I agree! :)

MrPoirot said...

Thanks Katie. Private lives 'cease to exist' once a murder is committed. I read recently where police said Jay had a book in his car describing various erotic positions. Seems a bit nosey to try and derive meaning from books in a murder victims car. Kinda reminds me of that old saying about wearing clean underwear cuz ya never know if you're gonna be in a wreck. Also we need to remember to get rid of all those old paperbacks with dirty stories or provocative covers. Better to be caught with the Farmers Almanac in your car if you're murdered.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, you crack me up. I know, your mama always told you to wear clean underwear with your name on it just in case!!

Rosemary & Jay are probably in Heaven right now rolling their eyes and saying "oh brother, here we go again". LOL.

starship said...

Selling condoms to the Pope? I'm not sure if that's a compliment or an insult. But anywhoo, I shall try to get to part 2 right quick.

Matt said...

Compliment. You are very convincing...

johnnyseattle said...

Just would add that the Labianca house was in a fairly nice neighborhood. I was born and raised in Southern California not far from there.

I would also point out that an actor at the time, Troy Donahue, was fairly successful and he lived a couple doors down from them.

In regards to the worth of $2 million in 1968, it would be about $12 million today according to the time value of money websites.

Finally, to further prove the world is off its axis I would point out that the Prosecutor himself relies upon the fact that Rosemary had over $2 million per the probate records even though it raised questions contrary to Bugliosi's view of the LaBianca's.

johnnyseattle said...

If anyone has the Labianca Tax records I could tell you in a NY Minute if she had legally acquired that money.

If it was from her businesses it would be reportable and if it was from her investments it would also be reportable.

If it was not in the tax returns, at a minimum it was not legally obtained which then raises other questions.

katie8753 said...

Johnny it may have been in a nice neighborhood, but the house itself was trailer trash.

I've looked thru my Helter Skelter book and can't find where Bugliosi mentioned that Rosemary had $2 Million. Would you kindly post the page number? Thanks!! :)

johnnyseattle said...

page 76 of the 25th anniversary edition. go to google reads, plug in rosemary labianca probate and it will take you to the page in the e-edition. not sure what page or what version you have.


in regards to the interior/furniture etc i would offer the key in real estate is not interior interior interior, rather it is location location location.

you'll just have to trust me that the neighborhood was a spendy one then and remains so today.

hope this helps.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Johnny, I'll look that up.

The LaBianca house was like a pimple on top of a mountain. But like you say, it's all about location. I'm sure the house on Woking Way was in a good location too.

My only point in bringing that part up was that Rosemary didn't seem to object to moving from a large, spacious, beautiful home to a small, cramped "efficiency-like" place to be.

That was my point in talking about the Waverly Drive home. It wasn't about the value of the home, but rather the lack of roominess and luxury of the home.

katie8753 said...

Anyway, I don't think Rosemary was the money-grubbing douchebag everyone tries to make her out to be. Just my opinion.

Okay, I'm going to watch a good boxing match. Night!

Panamint Patty said...

Patty was very surprised at the size of the lot on Waverly. It is a good chunk of land: maybe double or triple what most people in LA have. Maye they bought it because he could store his boat there? Just a thought.

katie8753 said...

Patty, he stored his boat at his mom's house. They bought the house because Leno had a "sweet deal" on it because his mom sold it to him.

I'm wondering if any of his siblings objected to that...

Anyway, Johnny I looked in Helter Skelter and yes you're right. It does say that Rosemary had $2.6 million. Thanks.

I'm confused about why they had financial trouble if she had that much money.

Now let's see what Starship has to say....

Panamint Patty said...

Somebody sent this to Patty anonymously and asked her to share it with you Katie:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3311-Waverly-Dr-Los-Angeles-CA-90027/20749229_zpid/

It says that the house is 1655 square feet. So we can now add this fact to our rather large body of useless knowledge. ;)

katie8753 said...

Wow 1655 square feet. It doesn't look that big. It says the lot is .72 acres. I thought that lot was bigger than that.

Thanks Patty!

johnnyseattle said...

Leno had financial trouble, Rosemary had plenty of dough.

As been said before, past is prologue.
If one looks at Rosemary's past one can easily envision a situation in which she had that money set aside for herself with no plans for Leno.

Look back at her past of not being particularly faithful to her partners and marrying up. For a carhop, Leno must have seemed to be a gateway to a more lavish lifestyle.



MrPoirot said...

If Rosemary had over $2mil her very weird daughter would have known it and would have been galavanting around like the Menendez bros spending money like nobodies business. Instead Suzan Legerge is back waiting tables two days after the murders.

johnnyseattle said...

if the folks who Leno owed money to got wind of this dough, -surely they read same the newspaper articles about probate court- i doubt that money is gonna stay in a young lady's hand very long.

btw Mr. P., I just wanted to apologize for the other day when i was a little out of hand in our discussion.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Johnny,

Four things:

#1) Mr. Poirot makes a good point.

Suzan and her brother Frank, should have come away from this situation very rich, if Rosemary was really worth 2 million... and now, estimates are reaching upwards of 2.6 million.

According to the Homicide Reports, Leno was in debt to the tune of approximately 230-240k on paper.

As I've stated on previous threads... EVERY gambler owes more money "under the table"... in addition, to what's seen on "paper".
I'm not naive... I get that.

BUT... Even if we QUADRUPLE Leno's "paper debt" (which is entirely possible), Suzan STILL should have walked-away with lots of loot.

Did she?
I honestly, don't know.

---------------------------------
#2) You said:
"As been said before, past is prologue. If one looks at Rosemary's past one can easily envision a situation in which she had that money set aside for herself with no plans for Leno."

As I previously stated... I agree with you.
I believe Rosemary had her own thing going-on.
Sure, she was probably "setting-aside" money.

However, the estimates are just too lofty, for my comfort.
It's not often, that the blood-sucking leech is able to squirrel-away 8 times the value, of the original host (Leno in this case).
(I don't think Leno was worth much more than 240K, because Gateway was sinking).

Two million dollars (i.e., 20 million today) does not just appear with no concrete record... and disappear just as quickly.

--------------------------------

#3) You said:
"In regards to the worth of $2 million in 1968, it would be about $12 million today according to the time value of money websites."

You have to take those websites with a grain of salt.

There are several yardsticks used, to "approximate" such calculations.

When you're dealing with an "estate" (as opposed to straight-up "cash") things can vary.
Even the "future buying power" of cash is not an exact science, because it's influenced by the economic health of our nation (and the world), which varies unpredictably.
The value of my own 401K fluctuates greatly with economic turmoil.

My dad bought a home in 1967 for 13K.
It's now worth 275K.
That appreciation rate is more than DOUBLE my original estimate (using per-capita income).

My point:
Two million in (1969) real estate could be worth 40 million today.
(That of course, is dependent upon several factors)

I really don't see, how these websites can put an exact figure on an "estate"... and my method (per capita income) seems as worthy, as any.

In fact (as demonstrated) the real estate yardstick (generally) exceeds the per-capita income yardstick... so, it's not an exact science.

The value of a lucrative business, can appreciate even faster than real estate.

The lesson here:
Take all your inheritances in real estate! LOL
OR... at a minimum... invest your inheritances, in real estate.
(Just kidding)

---------------------------------

#4) Johnny said:
"Leno had financial trouble, Rosemary had plenty of dough."

That's been asserted by many, and proven by none. (So far)

Panamint Patty said...

There is no way she could have amassed such a large fortune in such a short amount of time. Patty thinks the money was Leno's, and for some reason he wanted to appear like he was broke.

Maybe it was a tax thing? Maybe it was funny money? Maybe they were laundering it for someone? Maybe this is all conjecture and Patty should shut up now?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I'll say one thing:

If we could PROVE that Rosemary was indeed worth 2 million dollars (or more) in 1969, it would open the door to several more theories.

Heck...

I MYSELF might even entertain the possibility that she was somehow involved in drug sales, at THAT point.
(That's a LOT of f#cking dresses. LOL)

I honestly have no idea, what Starship has up his sleeve myself.
I'm also, looking forward to it.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Starship...
This better be f#cking good. LMAO!

I'm just kidding, with ya. LOL

starship said...

I'm with ya Lynyrd!

I shall try to get this post up next week. For now,as Lynyrd says, the $2M bucks has been asserted by many, proven by none. I shall tell you this, the assertions I have made and shall make and any conjecture on my part will be based strictly from documents of record.

So for anyone out there who really thinks I am off my rocker: get busy and start pulling together documentation to back up your position. Jesus, why doesn't somebody just ask Suzan and Frank, Jr.?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Starship said:
"Jesus, why doesn't somebody just ask Suzan and Frank, Jr.?"

That crossed my mind too.

This is a job for Star City Radio!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Patty said:
"There is no way she could have amassed such a large fortune in such a short amount of time. Patty thinks the money was Leno's, and for some reason he wanted to appear like he was broke."

Hi Patty.

Hmmm... that's an interesting thought.
I'm intrigued.

Your proposition makes more sense (to me), than this idea that Rosemary could have made millions (on her own)... through dress sales, and other short-lived ventures.

Maybe you're right.
Maybe Leno didn't want the "loan sharks" to know what he was really worth, and so, he hid money under Rosemary's name?
Maybe Leno and Rosemary, had amassed that money TOGETHER over time?
In a sense... under your theory... Rosemary was "laundering" Leno's money.

I'll have to chew on that one, for a long while.
There are lots of secondary implications here... and it still leaves a LOT of unanswered questions, but it's certainly an intriguing thought.
Stranger things, have happened.

Panamint Patty said...

Patty wants to dig deeper but she will have to wait now, because her last semester begins on Monday. She's looking forward to the Starship post: its reputation proceedeth itself.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I can't believe Patty has me on this kick... but, I must admit... her notion that Leno (and Rosemary) were BOTH hiding money under her name, is really starting to grab me.

It grabs me, because society was much more of a "man's world" in the 1950's (and to a lesser extent, the 1960's), than it is today.

It sounds very sexist on my part... but that figure of 2 million dollars is much more realistic, with Leno's name attached to it.
Case in Point:
It's much more believable (to me), that Leno and Rosemary had amassed that figure collectively.

I know, I know... it sounds sexist, but it's reality.

Patty's notion ALSO grabs me, because Leno WAS a guy who probably had good reason to hide his money.
We KNOW he was a major gambler.
(So, we have a "motive" sorta speak)

It also makes sense, that Rosemary would want to hide HER total assets from the "gambling underworld" too.

Were all of Rosemary's small business ventures an attempt at hiding and laundering Leno's money???

Patty...
This is the first time, that I've ever heard your theory.
I'm still not convinced that Rosemary had anything NEAR 2 million in assets... but your theory makes a LOT more sense to me, than some of the other offerings.
Kudos for that!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Starship,

I gotta be honest.
Even IF Brian Davis was able to interview Suzan, I'd still have my doubts about her veracity and accuracy.
Suzan seems kinda weird, if ya ask me.

Does anyone know, what she's up to these days?

It's kinda like Bill Garretson.
It was great to hear from him, but how much of his testimony can we really use?

Just thinking aloud...

johnnyseattle said...

Lynyrd
I agree that Mr P has a point. A very solid point.

No doubt the valuation will depend upon the asset class you are talking about. I get that in ways I don't want to get into. So yes, Real Estate is different than Cash or an Ownership Interest in a business for sure. I was using cash for cash but whether it comes out to 12 million or 20 million, for purposes of our discussion it really is moot as we are talking about a sizable amount of money that was supposedly made without anyone knowing about it.

As to whether she had that much I would point out that Bugliosi himself -and this is contrary to his interest- cites the 2 plus million dollar probate report. And he has had numerous opportunities to go back and clean up the record in one of the many reprints.

In regards to Leno's debts, it is hard to factor how much he really owed. Do not forget, he spent time as a Board Member of a Bank -one that was termed a 'hoodlum bank' by the police- and you don't get appointed to be a Board Member of a Bank unless they want you to be on it. I can't stress that enough. Banks 'recruit' Board Members and if you are a Hoodlum Bank all the more reason for you to be extra careful that a proposed Board Member will vote the right way. Leno was 'approved' and no doubt used his position to vote as needed on approving large loans, etc.
Given that and his gambling issues I would be willing to roll the dice a bit here and say he may have had other debts that were not 'on the books' and the type that will be collected. Leno is killed, a report in the LA Paper says the probate record shows a large amount of cash attributed to Rosemary. No doubt that was read with some interest by folks who were owed money by Leno.

I am looking forward to this information that Starship has about the LaBianca estate. Hopefully he has the probate records. I would just point out that in addition to Bugliosi consistent reference to the amount Rosemary had the LA Times was quoting from court proceedings. And there have been no subsequent 'corrections' issued that typically occur when a reporter gets a material fact such as the amount wrong. People at the time that were in the know would have pointed out to the newspaper the error -perhaps the court clerk- and a correction would have been run.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Johhny said:
"Given that and his gambling issues I would be willing to roll the dice a bit here and say he may have had other debts that were not 'on the books'.

I agree.
As Starship can attest, I've hammered at that point in past years.

The "Hoodlum Money" situation, has also been thoroughly considered (in past years) by Starship and myself.
We've also covered Manson's possible "Frankie Carbo link" to the mob, with great detail...

Truth be told... Starship and I, researched and discussed many of those details, before this blog even opened!
We've got a pretty good handle on the whole affair.

HOWEVER... having said that... I was NOT aware of Bugliosi's reference to 2.6 million (in his book).
Thanks for bringing that information forward.
Much appreciated.

As for Bugliosi, his credibility (of course) depends greatly upon who you ask.
I probably give his testimony a bit more weight than most folks... although, I don't quite consider Bugliosi's testimony to be hard proof.
It IS another log on the fire, though... and that's great.

We DO have Bugliosi's testimony AND the newspaper article now.
That's true.

Personally, I'd like to see more... and that's why, we're here.
That's why, we're all here.

Peace...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

If someone... anyone... could double-check and double-confirm that quote from Bugliosi's book (which Johnny brought forward), I would appreciate it.

Johnny left some pretty specific instructions here:

"page 76 of the 25th anniversary edition. go to google reads, plug in rosemary labianca probate and it will take you to the page in the e-edition. not sure what page or what version you have."

I simply don't have adequate time (right now), to research that quote myself.

I'm a hard-copy kinda guy.
I'm not too big into the e-zine and e-book stuff.
I guess, I'm just old.
I didn't even believe the "Rolling Stone" hype, until I bought the magazine for myself! LOL
(And, that's the truth)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

If I know Leary, he's probably sitting at the library or bookstore right now. LOL

Grab the 25th edition, and turn to page 76 Bro... LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Does anyone know, what the heck happened to Matt Prokes?

He's been gone for SO long.

I'm about ready to put out an "all points bulletin" on him. LOL

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd it is in the Helter Skelter book on that page that Rosemary's estate was estimated at $2.6 million. I already commented on that on this thread.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

OK... Thanks Katie.

If Katie says, it's in there... it's in there.
She keeps a copy of "HS" on her night stand. LMAO!
(And the real scary part... is that it's true! LOL!)

So it's official... we have Bugliosi's reference, and the newspaper article now.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Some girls keep Gideon's Bible... other girls keep "HS".
What can I tell ya? LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey... I shouldn't laugh.
It's come in handy, many times. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Credit, where credit is due"...

Katie has just informed me, that she has ALSO proposed (on several occasions) in the past, the notion that Rosemary could have been hiding Leno's money (for him).

I didn't recall Katie ever saying that... but, I searched the blog, and Lo' and behold... she HAS proposed that theory before.

I found ONE example of this... there are probably more.

Katie stated on Nov 23, 2012, and I quote:

"Like I've said before, maybe Leno was hiding money in Rosemary's accounts. I don't know."

That quote is excerpted from this thread:
http://www.lsb3.com/2012/11/charles-manson.html

Sorry Patty... it seems that Katie beat you by 14 months... maybe more. LOL

Gotta keep the Ol' lady happy. : )

Happy now, Katie? LOL

katie8753 said...

Well thanks Lynyrd. I'm glad you finally read my comment. Better late than never. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Yeah... well... you forced me to. LOLOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I had to engage the search feature. LMAO

katie8753 said...

I have no idea if that's true. It's just a thought I had a while back.

If Leno owed a lot of money to certain individuals that could sue him, he might have thought about burying his money in Rosemary's name to keep his money safe. Just a thought.

johnnyseattle said...

one of the reasons i give greater weight to Bugliosi's statement is that it really is against his interest. it raises more questions about the normal middle age couple than you would like if you are looking at them as totally random victims of a helter skelter.
vince, as the prosecutor, would also have access to the financial information and subsequent probate court records to verify this fact to his satisfaction.
just my two cents brother.

by the way, why do folks gloss over Leno being a board member of a bank suspected to have strong criminal ties?

MrPoirot said...

Has this thread decided anything about whether Rosemary was really worth $2.6mil.............. or not?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Johnny said:
"one of the reasons i give greater weight to Bugliosi's statement is that it really is against his interest. it raises more questions about the normal middle age couple than you would like if you are looking at them as totally random victims of a helter skelter."

I agree.
That makes sense.
Suggesting an estate that large, was probably not to Bugliosi's advantage.

Johnny said:
"by the way, why do folks gloss over Leno being a board member of a bank suspected to have strong criminal ties?"

It hasn't been glossed-over.
In fact, it's been discussed and researched at great length.

The biggest obstacle to ALL mafia theories, is this:
If Leno pissed-off the mafia (through gambling debts... or, through "hoodlum money" issues)... how did the Manson idiots get involved?

You see...
Very few people will subscribe to the concept, that REAL mafioso's would contract a "hit" with such baffoons.
And therein, lies the biggest obstacle to any theory involving the mafia.

It is suggested that Manson had created some Mafia ties while in prison... most specifically, with Frankie Carbo... but still... it's quite a leap.
Mafia outfits don't usually send a bunch of maniacal kids, to do their work.

And since no one can offer a decent answer to THAT question... the topic usually shits the bed.

In a nutshell...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Poirot asked:
"Has this thread decided anything about whether Rosemary was really worth $2.6mil.............. or not?"

No.
Not yet.

Starship has another thread forthcoming on this topic, which will include some documents.

MrPoirot said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCn4cn8ncL4

Here is an old Cutrent Affair show where Sandra gets unhinged at the 3 minute mark. Sandra is funny because she gets so angry yet she is too small to whoop up on the host. She wants to jump out her skin in rage.

johnnyseattle said...

hey Lynyrd
okay, i spent some time googling your blog and discussions on the bank that Leno was a Board Member of.

Brian Davis said...

Hi Lynyrd, Katie, Sunset and all of LSB3, Great thread here !

Lynyrd wrote,"The biggest obstacle to ALL mafia theories, is this:
If Leno pissed-off the mafia (through gambling debts... or, through "hoodlum money" issues)... how did the Manson idiots get involved?"


Leno and Carbo were
friends/associates. Leno owed Carbo. Carbo and Manson were friends/associates.

Manson even specifically says, "Leno LaBianca was killed for a black book with names in it".(Reagan JR)

Leno's last known contact with Carbo was March 1969 in Vegas.

You see...
Very few people will subscribe to the concept, that REAL mafioso's would contract a "hit" with such baffoons.


Or very few people will unsubscribe to the concept that Mafia only employs other made guys to carry out contracts. That is not always the case.

And I would doubt Manson was considered a baffoon by Carbo.

And therein, lies the biggest obstacle to any theory involving the mafia.

It is suggested that Manson had created some Mafia ties while in prison... most specifically, with Frankie Carbo... but still... it's quite a leap.
Mafia outfits don't usually send a bunch of maniacal kids, to do their work.


Again, the Mafia wasn't sending out manaical kids, they were sending Manson. Or at least Carbo allegedly did.

And one other thing, when we say "Mafia" we, I, am referring to Carbo.

We, I, don't know if Carbo was acting on behalf of the Mob or just himself in settling with Leno.

Leno supposedly owed Carbo around 30k.

And since no one can offer a decent answer to THAT question... the topic usually shits the bed.

I think it's because it's not the answers anyone wants to hear.

Just like the blood on the front porch at Cielo. We all stare and talk about it being there but the first time someone offers a possible explanation, it gets shot down by the masses. So we just keep staring and acknowledging the blood on the front porch.

johnnyseattle said...

Thank you Brian.
Finally...

If a Carbo type did reach out to Charlie it isn't likely that Charlie is going to be bringing a strung out Tex to discuss matters with Mr Carbo.
Charlie could be a lot of things to a lot of people, he prides himself on that. With a Frankie Carbo or other mafioso type it is likely that Charlie wasn't flashing his Manson moonbeams or doing that herky jerky dance of his. And one thing about Charlie that Carbo would know is that he doesn't snitch. And having Manson carry it out did accomplish one thing, it took the focus off of the Labianca murder having anything to do with the underworld. We all dismiss it out of hand. Frankie Carbo may be a lot of things, I wouldn't call him dumb.

Why is it so hard to believe? In part because we are looking at the Manson family as we know it to be in the full light of day. Not as Caro would know Manson prior to the Tate or Labianca killings.
Admittedly all of it is speculation but while it could be wrong I doubt a careful person at this point will readily dismiss it out of hand.


What we can reasonably be sure of is that Leno had ties to the Mafia. I would posit that his being picked to be a Board Member of a mafia aka 'hoodlum' bank is direct proof as to his involvement with the underworld.

The mafia will often have ties with people who -on the surface- have the air of respectability. Dig a little, and you'll typically find someone who is under their thumb albeit debts or their own proclivities. Leno fits that to a T.

Scratching the surface of Leno's life and it is fairly clear.

In regards to Rosemary's estate and the $2.6 million, the official line that people gave/accepted goes from Bugliosi to Sanders (he also cites this in his book and if you want to see where, google it). What is telling is not that she had all of Leno's property or that the bulk of it stems from insurance on her and Leno. People could understand an estate being inflated from death benefit proceeds to a large extent. Rather, they all refer to her as a successful businesswoman and investor to explain the large estate. I would say if the $2.6 million was in large part due to insurance death benefit proceeds Bugliosi would have said so as it would help to explain it away rather than raise questions. And Bugliosi wanted to reduce questions that ran counter to the Helter Skelter myth. Unfortunately, the story was already out there from the Probate Court records as reported by numerous Newspapers. So in case someone got snoopy he pulled the classic 'raise and dismiss.' He himself raises it and then explains it away with the story that Rosemary was a savvy business woman.

I am looking forward to Starship's follow up to this story. I hope he has an accounting of all the assets/liabilities in her estate and not a partial accounting. What would be interesting is to see the initial forms submitted that supported the large figure and if over time the estate was whittled down. But Starship must have something good as he wouldn't have gone out on a limb and called it BS without solid documentation.

MrPoirot said...

I remember the interview where Charlie mentions the "little black book" but the interviewer did not follow up with any questions.
An opportunity missed.

johnnyseattle said...

Good point, Mr P.

And, given his sketchy connections and unhealthy habits , I would wonder exactly what a fellow like Leno LaBianca would have in his 'little black book.'





LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Brian,

There are several discussions on this blog, in regards to that topic.

As you know, thread discussions often begin on one topic, and evolve into another.

In those instances (when the discussion shifts), it can be exceedingly difficult, to locate old discussions.

There is LOTS of stuff on here (in regards to Leno etc.), that is pretty much buried forever. LOL
Because I'm not very good at labeling stuff, I'm forced to reinvent the wheel (every so often), which is definitely NOT time-efficient.

Having said all that...

Here's an in-depth thread that I wrote on June 21, 2011, which delves into Leno, gambling, Carbo, hoodlum money... and the whole nine yards.
It's definitely worth a read.

http://www.lsb3.com/search/label/Leno%20LaBianca

There are several good comments in the comment section... but of particular note, is my first comment and Matt Prokes' first comment.

In my commentary, I play "devil's advocate", supporting the mafia connection theory. Prokes opposes the idea, with pretty sound logic.

-------------------------

I did MORE extensive research into Carbo, after that post.
(Unfortunately, I can't find it)

The cruxt:
I had listed every book (up to that point), in which Carbo was mentioned.

Example:

From "The Family" by Ed Sanders, page 11.

Alvin Karpis of the Barker gang remembers it: "He (Manson) was constantly telling people he could come on like the Beatles, if he got the chance. Kept asking me to fix him up with high-power men like Frankie Carbo and Dave Beck.; anyone who could book him into the big time when he got out." Fight-fixer and organized crime hit man Carbo was an inmate at McNeil Island while Manson was there.

I had compiled a good handful of quotations from books (in which, Carbo was mentioned).

For what it's worth, I was left somewhat disappointed.

Like Sanders, the authors suggested that Manson may have interfaced with Carbo at McNeil (in a superficial fashion), but no one got into anything meaty.

It was all pretty loose references, and some of the authors were kinda "questionable" themselves.

But who knows...

"I'M gonna call New York!"

LOL!

I'm open to anything.

--------------------------------

The Homicide Report indicates that Leno had $30k in personal debt/loans.

Somewhere along the line, folks have decided that the entire 30k loan, was owed to Carbo specifically.

That presumption is somewhat strained.

Here's what I've been told... although, I haven't confirmed it myself.

I've been told, that the notion of 30K being owed to Carbo originated with Bill Nelson, and from there, it was perpetuated by Adam Gorightly.

"The Shadow over Santa Susanna" by Adam Gorightly. Page 325:

"At the time of his death--it has been alleged--Leno was in debt to the tune of $30,000 to Frankie Carbo's organization."

"It has been alleged...".

Gorightly's source for that "allegation" was Bill Nelson's "Manson Behind the Scenes".

After a while, these shoddy author's start quoting allegations from one another, and it becomes pretty soupy.

As I said... that's what I've been told.
I haven't sat down to confirm that information for myself, so don't quote me.

----------------------------------

Bottom Line:
People are usually killed for a reason, and Leno was definitely engaging in high-risk behavior.

The "hoodlum money" situation AND his notable gambling problem, both suggest high-risk behavior in terms of personal safety.
We can't ignore that.
We would be completely remiss to neglect those areas, in terms of motive study.

Unless we adhere to "random killing" (with no questions asked), we MUST explore Leno's lifestyle as a possible catalyst.

Everyone, at a minimum, should agree on that much.
I'm definitely putting effort into these areas... I'm just not easily convinced, I guess. LOL

MrPoirot said...

The fact that Charie drove around so long that night before picking the Waverly house and the "little black book" comment and Leno's gambling habits tends to cast suspicions of motive separate from Helter Skelter and Copycat. Perhaps a mafia hit?

But yet Phil Kaufman says Charlie killed the Labiancas to scare him.

But Harold True says we are trying to assign logic to a bunch of crazy people by even trying to understand what went on.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Folks... I'm officially exhausted.

Carry-on without me. LOL

Starship... it's all yours. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I still haven't gotten over the fact, that my football season is over...

LOL

johnnyseattle said...

ha Lynyrd, my football season goes on.

Go HAWKS!


johnnyseattle said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I honestly have no idea, what Starship has up his sleeve myself.
I'm also, looking forward to it.
January 24, 2014 at 12:17 PM


Starship, having you author this thread with a fairly definitive statement I am counting on you to have something up your sleeve aside from a boney wrist. LOL

Starship aka Mythbuster...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Johnny said:
"Frankie Carbo may be a lot of things, I wouldn't call him dumb. "

Bro. No one here, has EVER insinuated that Frankie Carbo is dumb.

In fact, I give Frankie more respect and credit, than you do!

Frankie had WAY too many brains in his head, to start contracting "work" with a Two-Bit Munchkin, and a bunch of hippie kids.

Read Frankie's entire history.
The guy was VERY powerful and influential.
Frankie had access to SEVERAL folks who were MUCH BETTER equipped to "handle" Leno, than Shorty Manson and the imbecile squad.

It is YOU, who are insulting Frankie Carbo's intelligence... not ME.

Let's just get that point straight (in writing), since thousands of people read this blog.

You're not gonna start putting words, in my mouth.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Johnny said:

"Starship, having you author this thread with a fairly definitive statement I am counting on you to have something up your sleeve aside from a boney wrist. LOL

Starship aka Mythbuster..."


I've known Starship for years.

If you're going to start insulting Starship needlessly, you can hit the door.

Panamint Patty said...

Lynyrd said: "Credit, where credit is due"...

Katie has just informed me, that she has ALSO proposed (on several occasions) in the past, the notion that Rosemary could have been hiding Leno's money (for him).

I didn't recall Katie ever saying that... but, I searched the blog, and Lo' and behold... she HAS proposed that theory before."

Patty is LOLing, especially given the feuding past with my newly adopted "big sis." Its all good. Patty truly believes this is a group effort. Ideas get thrown around all the time, and the more info we get, some ideas become more likely than others. Frankly Patty was surprised when Lynyrd said he had never heard that one before.

STILL waiting for the Starship post. Dude, yer killin' P.

CarolMR said...

This post got me thinking of our old friend Maury Terry. On 1/21/13 there was a review (Part 1) of THE ULTIMATE EVIL by Matt. The comments section was very interesting, mostly about the LaBiancas.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Starship has proven himself time-and-again, to be a solid researcher.

The man is highly respected... he has been for many years.

Regardless of what his next thread does (or doesn't) produce, I stand behind his efforts 100%.
I support my staff.
That's how, I roll.

He's one of the most reasonable, honorable, knowledgeable, and honest men I've interfaced with... and, that's why he's on my team.

'Nuff said.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

The same goes for Chris, Sunset, Venus, Prokes... and, all the others.

They're all good people.

If any of this stuff was 100% PROVABLE by EITHER side of the debate, we wouldn't have a discussion, now would we?

There's no need for snide remarks here.
I won't tolerate it.

johnnyseattle said...

Lynyrd
Nothing snide my friend.

Definitely not putting words in your mouth.

You seem to have an issue with me.

No problemo, I'll show myself to the door.

Adios


LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Johnny,

I don't have a problem with you.

If Starship's efforts are not your cup-of-tea, then compose a thread of your own, and I'll gladly post it.

I'm willing to hear both sides of any debate.

I've never known Starship, to treat anyone disrespectfully.

-----------------------------

As for the Mob, Carbo, Gambling, "Hoodlum Money" topics... I've given them ALL serious consideration, for a very long time.

Just because, I do not subscribe to those theories at the same level as you do, certainly does not mean, that I dismiss them out of hand.

As I said to Brian:
"People are usually killed for a reason, and Leno was definitely engaging in high-risk behavior.

The "hoodlum money" situation AND his notable gambling problem, both suggest high-risk behavior in terms of personal safety.
We can't ignore that.
We would be completely remiss to neglect those areas, in terms of motive study.

Unless we adhere to "random killing" (with no questions asked), we MUST explore Leno's lifestyle as a possible catalyst."


Unfortunately, there ARE unconnected dots in every theory, and if I share those loopholes, it's no reason to get defensive.

It's certainly possible, that Leno pissed-off some bad people, and that's why he's dead.
But the problem, is that it's difficult to prove.

I probably over-reacted, but I felt your comment to Starship was unnecessary.
Starship isn't around.
He doesn't even blog on the weekends.

Peace...

katie8753 said...

Patty, LOL! Hugs!

Johnny, hang in there boy! :)

Kimchi said...

Lynyrd said:


"I've never known Starship, to treat anyone disrespectfully."


I say: -----BULLSHIT-----

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I guess she's still pissed. LOL

Good Luck Starship! : )

katie8753 said...

Kimchi, you go girl! :)

Doc Sierra said...

HI LYNYRD! and everone else. I see you inbreds are still getting lots of hits and comments. And a little conflict too. I personally don't think ego driven conflict accomplishes anything but it does keep things interesting. LOL. I see I have a lot of catching up to do. Y'all seem to have been pretty busy here. It's great to be back!

MrPoirot said...

Wassup Doc. Good to see you.
I see what you mean about ego driven conflict. I guess we aren't dead yet. I'm sure if this were Spahn Ranch Charlie would have us pulling Discontent Duty by shoveling horse manure.

In the words of Rodney King: why can't we all just come to now?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Doc!

Glad you're back!

starship said...

The pressure...the pressure...

1) Kimchi, I am sorry. That's all I can say.

2) I sure would like to see some documentation that Leno would have met with Carbo in March of 1969.

3) The check kiting scandal which broke at the bank happened after Leno had resigned from the board. The 'hoodlum money' quote is from the police in the second homicide report. I've never heard it anywhere else.

4) Yes, I believe it's possible that Manson may have been contracted for a hit on Leno.

5) "Made" guys are often not the ones who carry out hits for the Mafia.

6) I am trying to get this post out ASAP. Coming soon is all I can say.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Take your time Starship.
There's no big rush, really.

A few days one way or the other, isn't gonna make much difference.

Best to choose your words wisely.... that's my motto.

Doc Sierra said...

Lynyrd, Starship, Mr Poirot and everyone else.... Helluva job. Things are getting really interesting. I stepped back for a little while because I was getting bored with the whole Manson thing but I see people are seeking answers to unanswered questions again. I'm diggin' it.....

Doc Sierra said...

Sorry to stray from the topic but I don't know anywhere else to post it.
Back in 1975, when I was 13 I lived in Daly City, CA. I lived on Warwick St. The street behind us was Nelson Ct. There was a family on that street named Beadles. The oldest son and oldest daughter went to school with my brother and me. The parents, Phillip and Cheryl were murdered in their beds execution style. My brother had an SF Chronicle paper route at 5am every day. That street was on his route. He delivered a paper the Beadles' next door neighbor named Barnes that morning before the son, Les, found his parents murdered. I remember my brother was scared when he got home from his route but he didn't know why. Over the next few months we heard a lot of credible rumors. I say credible because our friend, Mark Doran's father was a Daly City PD Detective and some of the info came from Mark. Well, the rumors were that the parents were swingers and they included their children in their orgies. The Barnes' son, Mike said that a couple of times he saw nude couples leaving the Beadles house late at night to get into their cars. I believe it because Les was about the weirdest kid in our school. The other kids thought his sister Alicia was weird too. Les used to get picked on all the time. I never bothered him. I felt sorry for him. I remember once, at lunch in the cafeteria at Westborough Jr High (now Westborough Middle School) I watched a girl pour a chocolate milkshake over his head for no reason at all. I couldn't imagine taking that kind of shit from ANYONE. Les took a lot of shit. He must have been raging inside and I've often wondered how his life turned out.
Anyway, the murder remains unsolved to this day. I've googled the hell out of it but can't find much. I did find a short thread on one of the Zodiac Killer websites.
Has anyone heard of this murder? I remember reading in the paper back in the 70s that the police suspected that it had something to do with the swingers' lifestyle. Tragic anyway you look at it. Please let me know if anyone knows about or can find any other information about this crime.
Thanks

katie8753 said...

Hi Doc!! Good to see you back!

starship said...

Heading up to the Library now because the copy of NO MORE TOMORROWS which I ordered from the inter-library loan has arrived.

katie8753 said...

Starship, that's a good idea. I'm going to see if our library system has that book. I'd like to read it.

jeffrey jeff said...

When you read No More Tomorrows, pay attention to the letter that Leno writes to his daughter, Kory. In it, Leno goes into some detail updating his daughter on the status of all his horses. That should put to rest the silly notion that Leno's family had no knowledge of the horses.

Panamint Patty said...

Oopsie, JJ. that was Patty who wrote that Lenos family didn't know about the horses. She apparently pulled that tidbit from an incorrect source. Patty thinks she fixed it But she will double check.

spit it out, starship! it doesnt have to be perfect. Patty is Jones-ing, hard.

katie8753 said...

Okay I've done my duties. I've published everyone's comments.

Now I'm going to eat some good baspagetti.

Night!

jeffrey jeff said...

No Patty, I was not referencing anyone in particular. Leno's secret horses is just one of those TLB myths that keeps getting repeated.

I know where the misinformation comes from. The LaBianca Homicide Report states: To the families astonishment, it was learned after Mr. LaBianca's death, he owned nine thoroughbred race horses.

Leno actually owned seven horses at the time of his death but two of his mares were in foal, so maybe that's where the nine number comes from.

Only one of these horses, Kildaire Lady, was ever raced. She won three times and placed three times in two racing seasons. She won a race the week before Leno's death on August 3rd. The others were brood mares, and bum prospects.

starship said...

Yes, great point, Mr. Jeff about the letter to Cory. However it is clearly stated that in the second homicide report that his family was mystified about the horses...I believe Rosemary and Leno's children and ex-wife knew about them, but that his mother and siblings and their spouses (business partners) didn't.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Jeffrey.

Good to see you back!

MrPoirot said...

DocSierra Said:
(quote)Anyway, the murder remains unsolved to this day.
Has anyone heard of this murder? I remember reading in the paper back in the 70s that the police suspected that it had something to do with the swingers' lifestyle(end quote)

Poirot Replies:

Doc that is a similar thing like happened near me in the 70s. A double murder still unsolved till this day. Two high school age bros were murdered in their parent's home.
I was talking with an older lady at work one day in 2010 who remembered the killings and said she knew who did it. I went to the state police about it and talked to them for an hour and told them who may have done it according to the old lady.
The police already had him on a suspects list but the guy is in jail now for something else. It's been two years and I have not heard a word back. The murders are unsolved for 33 years.

Vera Dreiser said...

Careful Starship, much of No More Tomw's is embellished, ie: fiction. I know this from a source in Alice's family. She needed to do it to sell the book. Do not make the mistake of using it as source material.

starship said...

Caveat noted, Vera. Yes I shall note that as well. Coming soon...

matt prokes said...

I'm still around, just very busy these days.
Don't send the search party out!