Friday, December 20, 2013

Kitty and her part in the Beginning of the End for the Family

The Girls on the Corner: (L to R) Nancy Pitman, Sandra Good, Kathryn Lutesinger and Cathy Gillies

Now, over forty years on, those following the crimes of the Manson Family are familiar with reading about alleged connections betwen the Family and organised crime, the expansion of their drug dealing enterprise to the Hollywood elite, even CIA involvement in promoting a nationwide backlash against anti-war protestors and the hippie-peace movement by manipulating the Family to present them as the paradigm of hippies as drug crazed murderers to a horrified conservative public (the Family as "useful idiots").

What can be demonstrated is that even before 'Helter-Skelter' had a chance to get fully underway it had already been compromised by a pregnant 17 year old named Kathryn (Kitty) Lutesinger who found it difficult to get along with Manson.

Lutesinger's July/August 1969 interviews with the police would initially prove helpful to LASO detective Gleason, who at the time was involved in building a case against the Family (then residing at Spahn ranch), with regards to auto theft, credit card and other frauds, underage runaways, gun and drug offences. She assisted in Gleason's efforts to gather evidence with regards to the application for a warrant to raid Spahn ranch, ironically causing her own arrest.

She would once again, two months later, voluntarily offer information, this time to Inyo County police, regarding similar activities by the Family after the Barker ranch raids.

More importantly, in interviews with LASO homicide detectives Guenther and Whitely, she would confirm the involvement of Susan Atkins, and one other female, in the murder of Gary Hinman. She also named those she believed responsible for the murder of Donald Shea, and unknowingly help to implicate Atkins in the Tate murders. In addition she mentioned Manson's attempt to encourage closer ties between the Family and the Straight Satan's motorcycle club, including naming Danny DeCarlo, who would go on to give testimony against her boyfriend Beausoleil and Manson in their respective murder trials.

Unfortunately for Lutesinger, by directing police to Susan Atkins she had begun a series of events that would shortly link Beausoleil to the Tate murders by association. Something that would have serious consequences for Beausoleil's second trial, as well as his sentence once convicted.

Lutesinger would go on to implicate several other Family members in crimes as diverse as theft, arson and murder, and then surprisingly would return to the Family during the Tate-La Bianca trial as one of the Girls on the Corner during the long running vigil outside of the LA Hall of Justice, alongside several people she had only a few months before named to the authorities.

Lutesinger was introduced to the Family in 1969 as the latest girlfriend of Family associate Bobby Beausoleil. She had first met Beausoleil at Gregg Jakobson's house on North Beverly Glen. The couple expecting their first child together, had already spent time living with Lutesinger's parents on their Devonshire ranch, and apparently Manson believed that Beausoleil was being lured away from the Family by the seventeen year old.

Lutesinger came to live at Spahn ranch in early summer 1969 (sources vary from late May to early July), apparently because Beausoleil was assisting Jakobson (and Terry Melcher) with working on the soundtrack for a proposed film to be made about the Family. By 30 July 1969 she left suddenly without warning or announcement of her intentions (the same day Beausoleil returned to the scene of the Hinman murder). For the first of two times that year Lutesinger asked a non-Family member to assist her in safely getting away from the group (claiming Manson was threatening to carve her up).

Once away from the property, but before being taken back to her parents, Lutesinger was taken to the police, there beginning a series of interviews with Gleason that would continue until at least 10 August 1969. Lutesinger was apparently concerned for the safety of her mother and sister as Manson had threatened to kill them both if she left the ranch.

Even though she was present at Spahn ranch during the weekend of the Hinman murder, and was aware of it to some extent, it appears the interviews she gave to Gleason were primarily concerned with the Family as an auto theft ring. Although Lutesinger did discuss her fear of Manson and his death threats towards her and other Family members.

By 15 August 1969, Lutesinger was experiencing difficulties with her parents and contacted the Spahn ranch by telephone and asked to be picked up. She was collected and returned to the ranch, only to be arrested the following morning as part of the raid that her information had partially helped to justify.

Beausoleil was arrested for the Hinman murder on 6 August 1969. Lutesinger eventually became aware of his arrest but not of the charge for some time. LASO homicide detectives were aware of his connection with Lutesinger and were keen to interview her as Beausoleil had named females as being present during the murder (Sadie and Mary). Unfortunately inter-departmental communications were lacking and Lutesinger would, along with all those who been arrested with her, be released 48 hours later.

(Some sources state that Beausoleil did not name a 'Sadie and Mary')

Giving evidence at the preliminary hearing to decide whether or not to proceed with a second trial on 12 November 1969 Hinman homicide detective Guenther testified "We were hoping once we found her [Lutesinger] she would be able to give us more information as to Sadie and Mary").

She would then disappear with the Family for the best part of two months, until her arrest on 10 October 1969.

In the meantime, LASO homicide detectives Guenther and Whitely, who were investigating the Hinman murder, had contacted Mary Lutesinger, who in turn  confirmed that her daughter was the Kathryn Lutesinger who was in a relationship with the Hinman murder suspect Beausoleil. She also informed them that the couple had lived with her for quite some time, but that her daughter had since disappeared.

They convinced her to approach her local Devonshire Division police and report her as a runaway. An All Points Bulletin was also issued with regards to Lutesinger possibly having information regarding Sadie and Mary.

10 October 1969, shortly after the initial arrests had taken place during the first raid on Barker ranch, police officers were approached by Lutesinger and Stephanie Schram (another summer 1969 addition to the Family and also pregnant) who voluntarily turned themselves in claiming to be in fear for their lives because of threats made by Manson against them. Together they had runaway under cover of darkness only a few hours previously.

12 October 1969, more arrests were made in a second raid on Barker ranch. Even though all those arrested would be taken to Independence, Inyo County, Lutesinger and Schram were kept away from and confined separately from other Family members.

13 October 1969, Inyo County police had informed Devonshire Division that they had the runaway Lutesinger in custody, who in turn informed LASO homicide detectives Guenther and Whitely. They drove to Independence to return with Lutesinger for what would become a four hour interview in which she implicated several Family members for various crimes.

Her knowledge of the Hinman case was her presence at the Spahn ranch during the telephone call Beausoleil and Atkins made, in which they admitted to having "screwed up", and that they had killed Hinman. She also recalled Atkins later conversations regarding having had a fight with a man who had pulled her hair and whom she had stabbed three or four times in the leg.

One of the incidents that prompted the Barker ranch raids was the arson of a Michagan loader belonging to the National Park Service. Lutesinger named Charles Manson, Christopher Jesus (John Philip Haught), Manon Minette (Catherine Share), Diane Bluestein (Dianne Lake) and Rachel Morse (Ruth Ann Moorehouse) as being responsible. She also helped to prove this by revealing a grease gun had been taken from the loader, an item that was later identified when found in possession of the Family.

As to additional vehicle thefts, she named Nancy Pitman as being responsible for a Hertz rental car (hired with a stolen credit card) and later abandoned in the Barker ranch area. She also stated that this was the car used by the arsonists.

As well as who was responsible for the thefts of three of the dune buggies and another vehicle, burglaries, stolen credit cards and various other crimes.

She also spoke of life at the Barker Ranch, how Manson had become wild out in the desert, beating Snake (Dianne Lake), or everybody all of the time. Lutesinger claimed that when she had fallen asleep one evening during one of his fireside raps, he had punched her in the face. Threats also included being hung from a tree and having her tongue cut out. "Now when I start thinking about it I remember how bad it really was. How he just talked about it so much that you just...you know...about snuffing people and torturing them, and all kinds of orgies. You get so you just can't listen to it any more. It really was pretty bad."

Lutesinger was held for several days in Juvenile Hall and then released in to the custody of her parents.

Lutesinger was later informed by Inyo police that they had a Death List found in Manson's possession at the time of his arrest, and her name was the last one on it.

On 15 October 1969, fourteen suspects were arraigned on 20 felony charges including the arson.

On 23 October 1969, Manson, Share, Lake and Moorehouse were held to answer on the arson charge, Haught was not as there was insufficient evidence to hold him, he was released.

On 5 November 1969 Haught was found shot dead in the company of at least Bruce Davis, Sue Bartell, Linda Baldwin and Catherine Gillies (who were there when the police arrived). All four had been arrested (as was Haught) on the second Barker ranch raid on 12 October 1969 and subsequently released.

Manson later wrote that as soon as Family members were released from custody he passed on instructions for the group to clam up and find out where the police were getting their information from. Almost immediately word came back that amongst others it was Lutesinger.

On 12 November 1969 Atkins discovered during her preliminary hearing on the Hinman murder charge that she had been implicated by Lutesinger and not Beausoleil (whom she had suspected). Back in jail she stated that Lutesinger's life was "not worth anything".

Although Lutesinger only named two females as being involved in the Hinman murder three were taken to Los Angeles by the LASO.

Lynette Fromme was one, mistakenly identified as the red-headed Mary, and for the first time she was arrested on a murder charge. The second would occur when she would once more be briefly charged, this time with the murder of Lauren Willet.

The second was Patricia Krenwinkel. The Hinman detectives had reviewed the material on the 16 August 1969 Spahn ranch raid, they brought with them mugshots of the Family including their aliases. Krenwinkle had previously used the alias Mary Scott, and so on the strength of that connection to the 'Sadie and Mary' they were seeking, she was also taken back to LA. She explained to police they were looking for Mary Brunner. After her release she left the state.

The third was Susan Atkins. Some of what Lutesinger told the Hinman detectives was consistent with Beausoleil's statements, that Atkins was involved. Essentially Lutesinger's version of the murder was that Atkins and Beausoleil had, on Manson's instructions, gone to see Hinman to take money from him. A fight had occurred and Hinman had been killed.

The detectives returned to Independence to interview Atkins. She waived her rights, but declined to be recorded. Atkins incriminated herself, she was then transported to San Dimas Sheriff's Station and booked for suspicion of murder. Although charged as a co-conspirator and arraigned for the Himan murder she did not testify against Beausoleil during either of his trials.

Lutesinger was returned to her parents, and was visited by the authorities and was questioned about the Shea murder. She implicated Manson, Grogan, Davis and possibly Watson as being responsible. She also spoke of female Family members helping to cover up the murder.

Guenther and Whitely passed on Lutesinger's comments regarding Atkins stabbing a man in the leg who had pulled her hair to the Tate detectives who then interviewed Lutesinger on 31 Oct 1969.

Just over six weeks after the Barker ranch raids Beausoleil would receive a hung jury verdict at the conclusion of his first trial on 26 November 1969, before being arraigned to stand trial again on 12 December 1969. This trial would begin in February 1970 (the month Lutesinger gave birth to their child), and conclude with his conviction in April 1970. Lutesinger was present when Beausoleil received the death sentence, bursting into tears and finding comfort in the arms of Beausoleil's parents.

Although Beausoleil didn't testify at his first trial he had placed himself, Atkins and Brunner at the scene of the murder. In this version of events Hinman's vehicles were legally bought from an already injured Hinman whom they cared for over that weekend and who was alive when they left his residence.

Brunner would go onto to testify against Beausoleil in his second trial. Arriving to give testimony she was arrested and later jailed for 90 days for violating the terms of her probation on a check forgery charge, as she was without employment and was not maintaining a suitable residence (she had returned to live at the Spahn ranch).

Lutesinger, after informing several times on the Family, running away twice, and being generally regarded as untrustworthy by the group, also returned to live amongst them and became one of The Girls on the Corner, alongside Catherine Share, Catherine Gillies and Ruth Ann Moorehouse whom she had implicated for arson, Nancy Pitman, whom she had implicated for embezzlement, (mistakenly on the authorites part) Lynette Fromme for murder, Mary Brunner for murder, Steve Grogan for murder, and Bruce Davis for murder (twice). Not forgetting those females members she implicated as being involved after the fact in the Shea murder. As well as the burglaries, credit card frauds, etc. Many of those whom she implicated received death sentences.

Like the rest of those involved in the vigil she also carved an X onto her forehead and shaved her hair. Tate-La Bianca prosecutor Bugliosi now found Lutesinger so uncooperative that he declined to use her as a witness for the trial.

Lutesinger first arrived at Spahn ranch around two months after Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston began the process of distancing themselves from the Family. It should be noted that along with Lutesinger, Watkins and Poston were also voluntarily making statements to police, in the aftermath of the Barker ranch raids, regarding the activities of the Family, and in particular Manson.

Watkins would also return to live amongst the family for a short while. But unlike Lutesinger he would not take part in serious criminal activity. On 20 October 1971 Lutesinger would be involved in the escape of Kenneth Como from the LA Hall of Justice, but along with Fromme and Pitman would be arrested but not be charged.

Ed Sanders mentions that Lutesinger was eventually helped to break away from the Family by the Hinman detectives Guenther and Whitely. Once again Lutesinger had assisted the authorities, this time regarding 'The Chicken Coop Kids', who were the children of Family newcomer Dennis Rice (who would be jailed for his part in the Hawthorne Shootout and had been previously jailed for his part in the conspiracy to prevent Barbara Hoyt from testifying).

Their mother had reported the children missing in February, and had approached Family members living in a van (possibly The Girls on the Corner), who had informed her they knew where her children were but would not tell her.

Rice had left his four children in the care of the Family. They and an infant (daughter of Onya Sipe), aged from one to ten, were located by police in July 1971 on a ranch in Lancaster, living in what was described as man-made plywood caves 3ft by 9ft beneath a dilapidated chicken coop.

Sandra Good, still on her vigil outside the Hall of Justice explained "we have children in hiding everywhere. We teach them to hide. People give them to us because they know we love them." Adding that the holes the children had been found in were actually bunkers in case of the impending revolution if Manson was not set free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCyaZ8fgR_o
1min13sec in for brief Lutesinger interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNv7NopYFUg
The girls on the Corner

Hinman Report 10-13-69
Barker Raid Report 10-20-69 from Motorcycle File S.U.B. Auto-theft
Barker Raid Arrest-Investigation Report 11/20/69
Bugliosi Helter Skelter
Emmons Manson in His Own Words
Gorightly Shadows over Santa Susanna
Sanders The Family
CieloDrive.com
TruthontateLaBianca.com
HelterSkelterForum
the usual nod to LSB3.com

45 comments:

MrPoirot said...

Late July a lone Paul Watkins went back to Spahns from Death Valley and asked Charlie to release him, Brooks, Juanita and Bo Rosenberg from The Family. Paul had found Charlie delivering his daily sermon to the Family in the semi truck trailer called "The Helter Skelter Truck". They kept the big trailer parked over by the corral. It was to be used to carry supplies to the desert and also Charlie gave lectures inside it.
Lutesinger also wanted her release from The Family at this time which coincides with the date of Hinman's murder. This is only three weeks after Charlie shoots Lotsapoppa.

In his book Watkins never mentions the shooting of Lotsapoppa and killing of Hinman as why he wanted out. He fails to mention he was even aware of those two key events in late July. Lutesinger also never mentions these two events when leaving in late July. She probably didn't know but did Watkins know? He was digging ore up in Death Valley at this time so maybe he hadn't heard.

This is a lot of folks jumping ship at this crucial time(late July 69) just prior to the TLB murders. If the ship jumpers truly weren't aware of the Hinman, Lotsapoppa stuff going on it is a very clear indication of the advanced degree of mental deteriation going on inside of Manson due to his belief that Helter kilter was "coming down". Charlie is one panicky, pissed off, violent MF in late July 1969.

MrPoirot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MrPoirot said...

http://www.charliemanson.com/places/spahn-map.htm

In this map drawn by Tex Watson you can see the Helter Skelter truck and trailer over by the corral.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Christopher. Good work as always!

It's amazing to me how Kitty could run for her life in stark terror to avoid being mutilated, then turn around and carve an "X" in her forehead, shave her head and sit vigil for the very man she ran from. I don't get these people.

Sandra Good, still on her vigil outside the Hall of Justice explained "we have children in hiding everywhere. We teach them to hide. People give them to us because they know we love them." Adding that the holes the children had been found in were actually bunkers in case of the impending revolution if Manson was not set free.

This is what I'm talking about. They professed their love for children all over the place, and this is how they treat them? Chickens are nasty, germ-laden birds. I'm surprised these kids didn't contract Malaria or something.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Chris!

sunset77 said...

This post seems to cover a lot of ground.

Apparently, on the morning of Oct. 20, 1971, Kenneth Como/Cuomo? hack sawed his way out of cell on the 13th floor of the hall of justice, climbed down a rope made of bedsheets, kicked in a window on the 8th floor, and made his escape which lasted only 7 hours. A pic of the sawed through bars is HERE.

I was locked up on the 7th floor of a jail, the entire back wall of the cell was a clear "window" of plexiglass I assume. I was on the top bunk, I was afraid to even lean against that window as I was afraid it might fall out and me with it.

Kenneth Como must have been a pretty damn brave individual to climb out the 13th floor window, hanging on a rope made out of ratty ass jail bedsheets. Also, if that "rope" didn't reach the ground, or he couldn't have gotten back in the building, he would have been shit out of luck.

Finally, a pic of where the "chicken coop kids" MIGHT have been found is HERE. The title of the pic is " Underground home of five children is inspected at ranch" Further description--"Criminal investigators discover a hiding place on Spahn Movie Ranch where Charles Manson and the Family lived. Photograph caption reads,"Shallow pit in corner of chicken coop was covered by plywood and dirt"

louis365 said...

There's a Helter Skelter truck now??

starship said...

Really good post. A lot to take in here. Excellent work.

MrPoirot said...

LOL! Yea Louis. There is a Helter Skelter Truck. It was kept at Spahns while they got it road worthy and were loading it. Once it was unloaded near their Death Valley hideout it was stored at the Hannum Ranch.(David Hannum was a peripheral Family member)

BTW Katie since you mention that Lutesinger went back to The Family I thought I might add that Juanita Wildbush was one of the few who never went back. Stephane Rowe may be another one who left and never went back.
Paul Watkins left for the last time before the murders on July 25 but by February he was back living at Spahn Ranch and conducting the evening indoctrination BS lectures. Watkins finally left when Squeaky, Sandy and another girl confronted him and ran him off for good.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Mr. P. Since they knew Kitty was a "snitch" I'm surprised they didn't tie her to a tree and cut her tongue out like Manson threatened.

Mr. P, remind me again...what was the "just in case place"?

MrPoirot said...

The Just in Case Place? OK.
Charlie had Tex build it from wood they stole. It was located on the other side of the highway and they kept supplies in it. Supposedly it was an emergency bunker for Charlie to hide in. One day Charlie told Tex to stop work on it or more likely tear it down because George heard from whomever owned that property. This was one of the first assignments Charlie gave to Tex in 68. Charlie would go over to it and play guitar while Tex was working on it.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Mr. P. So it was kinda like a fort? Did it have a sign on it that said "No Girlz Aloud"? LOL.

MrPoirot said...

About that map: it is not really accurate time wise. The Just in Case Place was started in Summer 68 but by late Spring 69 I don't think it still stood since Tex claims Charlie told him to tear it down. The Helter Skelter Truck was only in place after about early July 69 and gone by early Sept. Tex said he was too messed up to continue working on it in 69. Paul mentions it in his book and says it held supplies. Somebody musta got on Charlie's ass about the Just in Case Place being on somebody elses property.
Strangely Charlie drew a map showing a bed in a tree down by the Shea murder site. Charlie supposedly would sit up in it and play guitar, etc.

Both of these little places were little satellite hangouts for Charlie to get away from the Ranch and do some serious fuckin off.

MrPoirot said...

http://www.charliemanson.com/collections/sphan-map.jpg

The map Charlie drew showing the "Bed in the Tree".

MrPoirot said...

I had read another description of the Just in Case Place that said it resembled a lean-to in order to conform to the steep bank by the creek in order to make it less noticeable.
There are several other instances describing other Family members having hiding places they went to by themselves. Nancy Pitman was asleep in her hiding place up on the hill above Spahns when the cops raided the Ranch on Aug 16, 69.

katie8753 said...

It's funny how when Susan blabbed they all turned against her and made her take it all back. But evidently it didn't bother them that Kitty was singing too. Maybe they didn't realize how much she was revealing??

katie8753 said...

Hmmm, Did I hit a sour note? Please expound. LOL.

beauders said...

Does anyone know what happened to Madeline Cottage?

sunset77 said...

Beauders asked about Madeline Cottage, one website says:

"Madaline Joan Cottage, aka Little Patty and Linda Baldwin, joined the Manson Family when she was 23 years old. Not much is written to indicate she was part of the closer Manson web like Kasabian, Fromme and others, however on November 5, 1969 she was with "Zero" when he supposedly shot himself in a game of Russian roulette. She gained some notoriety in the Family when others who entered the room after the gunshot, reported her response to Zero's death was, "Zero shot himself, just like in the movies!" Cottage left the family not long after the shooting incident."

Where she went after she left the family, I don't know.

Also, off topic comment.

I ran across an audio interview of Billie Jean Parker, she was the sister of Bonnie Ray Parker of Bonnie and Clyde fame.

Billie Jean was 2 years younger than her sister and while she probably wasn't a "main" member of the Barrow gang, she was almost certainly a fringe member. Billie Jean and Bonnie Ray look pretty similar in the photographs, I would guess their voices and Texas accents were similar as well.

Billie Jean Parker's voice can be heard HERE.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset. Interesting interview.

leary7 said...

I had to go back and check out some old threads for some info and it just reminded me of all the great posters who don't come around anymore...Grump and Mr Dilligaf and the Saint and FrankM and Lauren Webster and dozens of others.
Why do you think people bail completely? Do they get pissed off at the spats, or do they get bored and simply move on in life? I can see pulling back or taking a break as many have done, myself included, but bailing completely when clearly you had a prime interest at one point seems confusing to me.

jeffrey jeff said...

Hi Leary,
Dilligaf posts regularly on Cat's site. He also posted on Katie's blog not long ago (the Jodi Arias entry I believe).
I don't want to speak for Saint C and Grump (both great guys with a lot to offer), but they were treated so rudely on some other sites....well I don't blame them for bailing or taking a break. Kudos to you for hanging in there.

katie8753 said...

I miss Bedpan. He was hilarious. I don't know if you guys remember him. I wish he would come back. He e-mailed me a long time ago that he was sicking of blogging and was going to quit.

TheFormer Grump said...

Leary – A friend contacted me and told me about your post. I’ll give you a quick version, as I try to forget. It is kind of hard though, since I keep getting contacted. First, they accuse me of sending Patty those letters, and then a few days ago, I am accused of “picking on” Max Frost at Star City Radio.
When Max started up on “that site”, I was contacted and told, “be patient with him. He is friends with the Col and he will open up a lot of doors for us.” The only door (singular) he opened was the one to this blog. All the good people left and came over here.
I offered to meet him in person, and settle our differences like men, but he laughed me off. I hired a PI to track down Max for me. I got his name, address, date of birth, and surveillance photos. I got a power of attorney for my son, someone to take care of my dog, and drove towards LA. I was going to settle this, and was willing to spend some time in the LA County Jail after I broke his neck. About halfway there, I came to my senses and turned around. I am not willing to go to jail over that pompous ass, or Charles Manson. I am taking a long break from Manson. It’s been 30 some years for me. I am even thinking about selling off my collection of books, DVD’s, autographs and stuff.
Liz and I are still very good friends. We talk all the time.
I spend most of my time now doing research on WWII, Korea and Vietnam. I have Uncles and a cousin killed in these wars. I never met the Uncles; they died before I was born. I have found pictures and talked to troops that served with them in Korea and Vietnam. As a retired Air Force member, I am willing to die for this country. My son laughs when I tell him I spent Desert Storm in a Hotel with maid service in Qatar. My offer to Max still stands though. I will gladly purchase him a one-way ticket to Afghanistan.
We’ll see if I ever come back. It’s doubtful though. I never realized how evil and mean people can be. I refuse to back stab or brown nose, so I don’t fit in much anymore.

To you and St – Live long and prosper my friends. Katie used to have my Email address if you ever want to talk off the board.

katie8753 said...

Hi Mr. Grump! I published your comment because you were responding to Leary. But I won't let a fight ensue. Lynyrd doesn't like fighting.

Mr. Grump, you're welcome on this blog and my blog anytime. I hope you know that.

Good to see you.

matt prokes said...

Leary I think people leave for various reasons.
Its a testament to L/S and Katie that the blog rolls on no matter who might decide to leave...it keeps things fresh with new opinions always incoming.with the blog wars mellowing out we get patty and others from evilliz coming over to add their insights to age old questions which is the way it should be imo.
For me its just a matter of time...12 hour days at work don't leave much time to post plus when I am online I have my replacements youtube and facebook pages to maintain which takes more time than I ever thought it would!
Also I got a little burned out on the manson thing for a while but that will change as I get more time on my hands.
And don't despair I'm sure at least saint will return at some point...I don't think he could stay away forever...he can always post here without being shit on...anyone can... which is what makes it such a cool place to hang out!

katie8753 said...

Matt great to see you as always. I've missed you here and on my blog.

Thanks for your insight!! :)

leary7 said...

yowza, formerGrump, I didn't have a clue things got so out of hand for you. Totally understandable taking a siesta. And burning out on Manson is obviously easy to understand as well. I'm about there myself. Funny, I am a WWII student too - just started Rick Atkison's trilogy.
And I said it before and will say it again - that MF guy is flat out the biggest asshole I ever encountered. But I sure am glad you turned back. He's not worth your spit.

leary7 said...

You still have time for hockey though, don't ya, Matt?? My B's are cruising.

matt prokes said...

I've missed alot more games than usual this year even though i tape them while i'm at work.
Most years out of an 82 game season I'd miss three or four this year its looking more like 10-20!
I would'nt expect them to be any less than solid...even with all the injuries they still seem to be doing well.

matt prokes said...

Hi Katie!

matt prokes said...

hows Mr.Doobie?

MrPoirot said...

I wish all my fellow inbreds a Merry Christmas and peace on Earth.

sunset77 said...

Two of my favorite Christmas vids:

Good King Wenceslas

Dance of the Mirlitons

Merry Christmas to all!!

MrPoirot said...

My favorite Christmas was my only white Christmas back when I was about 8 yrs old. My dad got a call from my aunt in Surgoinsville in Eastern Tennessee saying they have 17 inches of snow so come up quick. Our family of four drove over the Blue Ridge Mtns from SC to the little town on the Holston River which winds through the mountains.
There were a lot of kids in that tiny town overlooking a mountainous river valley with open farm land so we all made a steep, long sled run by stomping down the snow on a big slope. At the bottom was a pasture with a Bull in it so if you went to fast you'd end up going under the barbed wire fence into the Bull pen. Well naturally I tried every time to get as far as the Bull pen. Funny thing was though. I don't think the Bull cared if we skidded into his pen but the exhilaration of cheating death was too much to avoid for a little kid like me. The Bull must have understood kids because he'd just stare at me peacefully. One time we fit four of us on one sled.
At night while we all slept I remember a train and it's whistle as it carried coal through the valley. Trains have horns now, not whistles. It must have been Winter 1964 that this took place. If I could freeze time at any point in my life and remain there until I died it would be that time at Christmas in the snowy mountains of Tennessee.

candy and nuts said...

RE: cats sit can someone tell me if this is a Manson related site and where it is? thanks

leary7 said...

great story Mr P.
I am a New Englander but admit there is no place more beautiful than the Tenn mountains.
An impassive bull, I can just see him.

katie8753 said...

Hi Matt! Mr. Doobie says hey!

Candy I think it's http://truthontatelabianca.com.

Mr. P, I love that story.

FrankM said...

For Leary:

In my case I realised that every time I posted I got insulted. My posts were often long and well researched, and I took time over them. I decided that enough is enough; since I passed my 70th birthday there are many things I have let go, and this is one of them. I don't need the grief, and would rather spend my time with my grandchildren in Greenpoint. My regards to all who knew me.

Panamint Patty said...

Merry Christmas Frank. You are certainly missed.

bobby said...

Grump, Frank , St. C

All great posters and I imagian that is why they are all sensitive to negative responses.

As someone who has heard the don't take it personal & don't be so defenseive line I think I can relate to them.

Frank, I know we all respect your thoughtfull post's.

Grump, What can I say your post's are just plain awesome & fun & informative.

St. Nothing more I can say to you that i havn't said so again thank you for the kindness you have given me. I will remember & appreciate your gifts forever.

Anyone else who does not post anymore because people respond in a shitty way please don't let that stop you. Especially if it was me who responded badly. People/me can be real dopes so don't let that deter you.

Anyway, For those out there that these holidays are tuff time I pray that you find some joy & some good & god bless you, be safe & be there for someone who is feeling depressed as we all know people who have a hard time getting through this season.

Love you all.

Bob

leary7 said...

much gratitude for the explanation, Frank. And I understand. I am about there myself.
But you are sorely missed. For some reason you and I clashed, different perspectives or just a whole lot of misunderstanding on my part.
Enough is enough is a common sentiment on Manson blogs. I was over on Cat's site, which is magnificent, and she has threads where she decides to shut it all down too. Manson blogville is no spring time tea party, that's for sure. More like Minnesota ice fishing.

MrPoirot said...

Kitty was unable to get along with Charlie. He really got POd at her so she went to the cops about him. She must have POd the cops because they raided Spahn Ranch and arrested her too.
Then she got released to her parents and found she couldn't get along with them parents either.
Kitty couldn't get along with anybody it seems. No wonder The Family wouldn't tell her that Bobby was in jail for murder. This chick was a real Alec Baldwin type.

leary7 said...

Kitty one in a million, Mr P.????

What, a teenage girl who didn't like the female beating Manson?
A teenage girl in the 60's who didn't get along with her parents??
Stop the presses.
A teenage girl who didn't like cops!!!!
Kitty was screwed up and with quirks - who of us at the age and in that age wasn't warped.
But I do find your assessment of her a bit harsh.
Just an opinion.

MrPoirot said...

The cops probably accidentally arrested Kitty in the Aug 16 raid because they assumed she was back home living with her parents after she had snitched on Charlie. The cops had no way of knowing that Kitty had run away from her parents again to go back to Charlie the night before on the 15th.

I don't think anybody ended up at Spahn Ranch until there was nowhere else to go. Spahn Ranch was the end of the road.

Many of the Ranch residents had lived in communes prior to Spahns but found communes too strict. Most Ranch dwellers were transiants who were thumbing rides through California. In the DSM manual hitch hiking is listed as a symptom of schizophrenia.