Friday, April 5, 2013

Chris... my good friend from Wales (and our newest author), has completed another comprehensive thread for us.  
This guy is serious!  Thanks Chris!
A Review of Spahn Ranch Raid Documents

*Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department Complaint Report from 6.00am 16 August 1969.

*State of California Affidavit in Support of and County of Los Angeles Petition for Search Warrant, 13 August 1969. No 2029

“Charles Manson and some of his group just showed up at the Spahn Ranch and started living in the movie sets. Most of the buildings were false fronts, but they made them into rooms. I thought they were just a bunch of hippies, but we started getting reports that members of the Straight Satans, a motorcycle gang from Venice, were going to the ranch on weekends and partying. The word was that they were trading drugs for sex with the women there. Some of the women were runaway juveniles who provided Manson with cash and credit cards stolen from their homes. We also had reports that members of the group were shooting a machine gun. The Manson people were also stealing and building dune buggies and driving them onto adjoining properties, creating a nuisance. A couple of nights before the raid, we hiked into the ranch and found a stolen, brand-new 1969 Ford and a stolen Volkswagen. That was the main basis for our search warrant—to recover these vehicles and try to identify who stole them.”  
BILL GLEASON, Los Angeles County deputy sheriff assigned to probe auto thefts, recalling the raid on the 40th Anniversary of the Tate-La Bianca murders.

“It seemed like every cop in LA was there.”  Manson

This piece revisits two documents. The first is the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department Complaint Report from 6.00am 16 August 1969, a document generated after the completion of the large police raid on Spahn Ranch. The other is the police affidavit in support of a petition for the search warrant that enabled the raid to take place.

When these documents were created Manson was not yet ‘The Most Dangerous Man Alive’ or a ‘hippy cult leader’. There was no ‘Family’ or ‘thrill kill cult’. At that point in time, there was no media distortion. Both of these documents feature heavily in most published accounts of the Family.

The petition gives an insight into the increasing criminality of the Family’s reputation. It reveals an armed group, boastful and threatening, who are engaged in auto theft. Manson is singled out as the focus of the group as it briefly makes mention of intimidation, theft, rape and murder. It is significant that his designation is first in the list of arrestees as S1.

The Complaint Report offers, at a critical point in the history of the Family, an impressive roll-call of members and associates. Right at the moment when the Family had killed, but before the significance of Lutesinger’s discussions with the Sheriff’s Office were realized, the raid was not only written up, but was also filmed and photographed. The document also preserves the appearance of several figures whom would prove most helpful to the state prosecutors in their testimony against the Family: Juan Flynn, Danny DeCarlo, Barbara Hoyt and Katherine Lutesinger.

The raid is often viewed as a missed opportunity or failure, owing to the misuse of the warrant, its having been presented three days after the date it was valid on. However, it did succeed in encouraging the majority of the Family, to leave the county. The arrest of Lutesinger, would be missed by those investigating the death of Gary Hinman, and she would be released with the others to leave for Death Valley.

Today, with computerized records, it seems perplexing that the Family could continue to function with so many of the group already known to, and wanted by, various branches of authorities.
The 16 August raid would net: Lutesinger - wanted for questioning regarding a recent murder. Grogan - an escapee from a local mental institution placed there after being charged with exposing himself to children (also with three recent arrests for Grand Theft Auto).
Good - recently freed earlier that week on a charge of fraud. Manson - on federal parole, who had recently been questioned regarding separate assault, rape and murder investigations, and in addition was already on three years parole for his 28 July 1967 conviction for interfering with a police officer who was trying to seize Manson’s 14 year old runaway companion. Atkins - who was placed on probation after her 22 June 1968 drug possession (then and at the raid giving the same alias), and after her 30 September 1966 conviction for possessing a concealed weapon, she was also given parole for receiving and concealing stolen property before being extradited back to California to face federal charges of interstate transportation of stolen vehicles. DeCarlo was awaiting the appeal of his 1967 conviction and sentencing to five years for importing 11kg of marijuana across the USA-Mexican border in 1966, as well as an assault charge for his and Manson’s attack on DeCarlo’s wife, and the illegal registration of a fire-arm.

The 28 July mini raid could have netted  Plumlee an AWOL Marine, and Beausoleil who was probably still wearing the clothes he had murdered Hinman in the previous day.

One week on from the Tate-La Bianca murders the Sheriff’s Department were to capture nearly all of those involved (with the exceptions of Watson, who was with Dianne Lake at a ranch near Olancha, making incriminating statements to Lake regarding his role in the murders, in between her arrest for nude sunbathing. Linda Kasabian, who on August 12, was sent by Manson to find out what was happening regarding the court hearings of Brunner and Good, and  to visit Beausoleil, but instead had headed straight to New Mexico). Manson, Atkins, Krenwinkel and Van Houten were captured during the raid.

Bruce Davis avoided the raid as he was delivering vehicle parts to the ranch near Olancha, not returning until after the arrests. Brunner would remain in custody until late September on a forgery charge.

Of the 26 people arrested, several were unsurprisingly enough, ranch hands employed by Spahn: John Swartz, Larry Craven, Juan Flynn and David Hannum.

Two were members of the Straight Satan’s motorcycle club: Danny DeCarlo and Robert Rinehard.

The 20 remaining are mostly familiar names amongst Family members and Manson’s criminal associates. Many gave aliases when arrested, oddly enough Nancy Pitman, who frequently went by the name Brenda McCann since her mid-teens, was arrested under her own name.

Those who gave their address as being Spahn Ranch included: S1 Charles Manson, S3 John Swartz, S5 Leslie Sue Owens [Van Houten], S7 Larry Craven [Spahn Ranch hand], S8 Barbara Cryer [Hoyt], S10 Mary Ann Scott [Krenwinkel], S11 Ruth Ann Smith [Moorehouse], S12 Shirley Amanda McCoy [Cottage], S13 Lynn Alice Fromme, S14 John Flynn [Spahn Ranch hand Juan Flynn], S16 Grant Mollan [Grogan], S18 Julia Roberts, S19 Sadie Mae Glutz [Atkins], S20 Ruth Ann Heuvelhurst [Cooper], S23 Larry Jones (aka Little Larry) [Bailey], S24 Catherine Anne James (aka Cathy) [Share], S25 Catherine Lynn Drake (aka Katy) [Lutesinger].

Those who gave addresses for elsewhere included: S2 Richard Smith [DeCarlo] [Straight Satan member], S4 Sandra Collins Pugh [Good], S6 Nancy Pitman, S9 Carol Mathews [Schram], S15 Robert Rinehard [Straight Satan member], S17 David Hannum [Spahn Ranch hand], S21 Patricia Anne Burke [Gillies], S22 Vern Edward Thompson [Plumlee], S26 Herbert Townsend.

I can find no mention of S18 Julia Roberts, a white female aged around 18 at the time of arrest, as tall as Manson (5’7”), 120lbs, brown hair, blue eyes. S26 Herbert Townshend, a white male aged 17, is mentioned in Gorightly’s A Who’s Who of the Manson Family as ‘arrested in the Span Ranch raid’, and Sanders’ The Family simply mentions him as ‘out of the back door and off the porch of the saloon leaped one Herb Townsend’. Unlike the other 25 arrestees listed on the complaint form, his address, physical details, aliases, identifying features (scars and/or tattoos) are not listed.

All were charged with Grand Theft Auto, in addition Manson who had a number of other people’s credit cards on him when arrested was also charged with burglary. DeCarlo was also charged with Assault with a Deadly Weapon as he was in the process of reaching for a loaded gun when the police were attempting to arrest him.

Those children present were taken into care: Zozezose Zadfrack Glutz ( Susan Atkin’s baby son), Michael Shawn (Mary Brunner’s baby son), Dennis DeCarlo (Danny DeCarlo’s son) and the abandoned Tanya Kasabian (Linda Kasabian’s baby daughter). In addition a twelve year old boy named John Friedman was also detained. His parents apparently lived at the site before the arrival of the Family and his father was an artist.
The vehicles seized and impounded were mostly VW dune buggies, a couple of motorcycles and most importantly John Swartz’s 1959 Ford (registration plate GYY 435). The Ford had provided transportation for the Crowe shooting, Hinman, Tate and La Bianca murders.

The weapons collected are simply described as “a large number of dangerous weapons”.

Not arrested that morning was ranch hand Donald Shea. Perhaps it was this omission and his antagonism towards Manson and the Family that provided the generally accepted motive that his murder was carried out in retribution for his apparent informing to George Spahn and to the authorities regarding the Family’s criminal activities (not to mention marrying a black woman).

Much later Grogan did comment at his parole hearings that the Family lost its children and most of its possessions because of the raid, and that much of the resentment was directed toward Shea.

However, the affidavit in support of a petition for a search warrant, dated 13 August 1969, reveals that Manson and the Family were generating enough interest from the authorities without Shea’s assistance. Although Manson continues to blame the authorities for harassing the group at Spahn Ranch, it can be seen in the affidavit that Manson’s boastful behavior to police officers regarding the arming of the group, the openness with which he informs police officers that they are being viewed through rifle sights, and the losing of ammunition from his vehicle on public highways, goes some way to convincing the authorities that they needed to act.

The Grand Theft Auto charges could have been avoided had the Family been more discreet, but as the affidavit demonstrates, the group made little effort to hide stolen cars and parts, and were confident enough to threaten those officials who found themselves around the group, and in one instance to sell stolen parts back to the garage they were previously stolen from that was co-run by a police officer.

Around 17 July (the week before the Hinman murder) two homicide detectives visited the ranch as part of their investigation into the recent murder of 16 year old Mark Walts. An apparent frequent visitor to the ranch, whose brother accused Manson of being involved in his shooting.

The week of the Hinman killing one of the detectives received from patrol officers three loaded ammunition clips for a .30 caliber carbine that had been found on the highway, apparently after falling from a passing dune buggy. It was noted Manson had contacted the police to claim ownership.

On 24 July firemen on routine fire patrol observed at the ranch a flat-bed truck loaded with car parts and VW engines covered over with sleeping bags.

Within this same period two police officers in a patrol car at Spahn Ranch had a conversation with Manson during which he boasted about the quantity of weapons available at the ranch and how at that moment rifles were trained on the officers and that this was standard procedure whenever the police approached the ranch.

On 28 July LAPD ran checks on the Spahn Ranch vehicles and two were noted as being stolen. A patrol car at the ranch requested assistance at 1.10am, with other patrol cars continuing to arrive as late as 3.15am. Probably Manson using the alias Summers, was identified as a possible member of the Straight Satans, who took the opportunity to mention an anticipated attack by the Black Panthers as an explanation as to why several of the occupants of the ranch were armed. Officer George Garp in his Field Investigation Report would include the following quotes attributed to Manson “…we got into a hassle with a couple of those black motherfuckers and we put one of them in hospital”. An offer was also extended to the deputy to join forces with his group and defeat a common enemy in the form of the Black Panthers, “…join up with us; those guys are out to kill you just like they are out to kill us…if we join together we could solve this problem”.

Summers helped to round-up the others in order to determine who the stolen vehicles belonged to. It was later discovered the group were using a field telephones as an early warning system. Those rounded-up included Charles Summers [Manson], Swartz, Craven, Jason Lee Daniels [Beausoleil], Robert John Nelson, Fromme, Moorehouse, Jacqueline Loe Knoll, George Harry Knoll [Straight Satan aka 86 George], Arnold Edward Vitasek [Plumlee], Jack Paul Macmillan [Davis]. The sole arrest was Swartz for using stolen plates on his vehicle. Other finds included three loaded rifles.

One of the stolen vehicles present belonged to Hinman, although murdered on the 27 July his body would not be discovered until 31 July, Beausoleil would be arrested in Hinman’s Fiat on 6 August. One of the police officers knew Hinman, and also that he was friendly with the group at the ranch, and therefore saw nothing suspicious with Hinman’s vehicle being parked there.

Only one day after Hinman’s murder and in one single location Beausoleil, Manson and Davis, and the victim’s vehicle all came under scrutiny of the police. On 6 August Beausoleil when arrested had Hinman’s blood on his clothing and boots, as well as on the murder weapon, so in all probability during this ‘mini raid’ Beausoleil was wearing the same clothing he would later be arrested in and may well have had the murder weapon about his person.

On 30 July after hearing gunshots close by to the ranch another fireman approached the buildings, passing by two males and two females sat in a parked car shooting. Once at the ranch he fell into conversation with a male named ‘Jack’ and observed several rifles inside one building. ‘Jack’ was aware of the shooting being carried out by ‘some of our people’. The fireman asked if they were firing on the ranch and its occupants but was told ‘No, we have a guard at each road in with a rifle and a telephone so if anyone comes in, we’ll know they’re coming’. The fireman in question Mel Walker, also makes mention of seeing a somewhat hidden “raunchy looking hippie vehicle” parked up the canyon from the ranch.

(This day is also significant as Beausoleil’s girlfriend and soon to be mother of his child, Katherine Lutesinger left the ranch and began to unwittingly put an end to the Family at liberty. Having left the ranch in the company of the owner of land adjacent to the ranch, and been taken to the police, before being returned to her parents’ home, would see the police begin to visit her at home, with regards to the Family’s activities.)

On 9 August a VW was spotted by police a short distance from the ranch and was determined to have been reported stolen on 15 July.

On 10 August whilst preparing the affidavit the officer William Gleason who would oversee the 16 August raid read through Manson’s recent arrest package, which included a 4 June charge for rape that occurred at the ranch. During his interview Manson mentioned that he was on Federal Parole for Grand Theft Auto and that he had served time in more than one prison.

A stolen dune buggy belonged to a company ran by Phil and Dale Butler. Phil was at that time an LA police officer. When interviewed Dale stated that Manson always paid for his purchases in cash in $100 bills up to the amount of $2,300, and that it was normal for Manson to carry large sums of cash. Recently Dale had purchased a dune buggy from a friend of Manson that was discovered to be made up from parts stolen from Dale’s storage yard.

Dale was also contacted by LA County Firemen, who had noted VW dune buggies and parts located close to Spahn Ranch which they believed to belong to him. Also mentioned by Dale and noted in other official memos are threats received by the firemen from ‘male subjects’ in the area.

Mention is made of an informer identified as “B.C.” who claimed to be paid large sums of money to work on Manson’s dune buggies at the ranch.

(On that same day Officer Gleason also visited Lutesinger and was informed of Manson’s regular death threats against those with him at the ranch. In addition Lutesinger asked him about the recent Tate killings.)

All of those arrested were taken to the Malibu Sheriff’s sub-station, then the following day the women were taken to Sybil Brand, and the men to LA County Jail. They would be released without charge on Monday 18 July.

“From jail, most of us fled as quickly as possible to Death Valley. The desert was our only hope.” Atkins

ATKINS - Child of Satan Child of God
BUGLIOSI - Helter Skelter
GORIGHTLY - The Shadow over Santa Susana, and A Who’s Who of the Manson Family. 
SANDERS - The Family
CharlieManson.com
HelterSkelterForum.com
Truthontatelabianca.com
LAMag.com
A nod as always to LSB3.com

79 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Chris!

Your research is always comprehensive, in-depth, and very well-written.

You must invest hours compiling this stuff, from several sources.
Your effort is much appreciated.

You really should write a book.
Your presentation is fabulous.

Excellent job again, Bro!
You ROCK!

MrPoirot said...

Chris mentions something I had not heard before:

July 27 Charlie says they put one Panther in the hospital which reveals that Charlie was already aware that Lotsapoppa had not died from Charlie's shooting him prior to the aug 8 tate murders.

Charlie had no doubt read the police report which revealed there had been an informant living at the ranch just prior to the raid as well as the dates of the informant's occupancy. This pinpointed Shea as that informant.

The judge who released the Family was the same judge who issued the warrant. He must have wondered why the heck the cops served the warrant after it had expired. There definantly is a Keystone Cops aspect to the TLB saga.

I had read an interesting statement from George Spahn while perusing over at CieloDrive.com; he said he had not been able to pay his hired hands for 4 years so the Hippies were definantly needed to run the declining ranch.

louis365 said...

Here again, I read how the Aug 16 raid was filmed by the LAPD. I once read this in one of the books; that book also said that the film was later used by the LAPD in training on how to conduct a raid on such a compound, since this raid was the first of it's kind done by the LAPD. Does anyone know if this film still exists? Has anyone ever seen it?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Excellent question Louis.
I'd love to see that footage myself.

Anyone know where we can obtain a copy?
I'll post it for everyone (right here on this thread), if we can find it.
Matt Prokes?

sunset77 said...

I've read that "David Hannum" may have been an alias. I've seen Robert "Rinehart"s name spelled "Rheinhart" in several places. Not %100 sure in either case.

John Friedman Jr. was probably the son of John Friedman who was on the old Geraldo episode "Manson Family Reunion" wearing a mask. Friedman claimed "I knew Manson long before there was a Spahn's Ranch". Friedman, along with his wife Holly Feeny probably raised Sandra Good's son Ivan while she was in prison. There is a fairly recent pic of "Chef Ivan Pugh" standing near his restaurant, also in the pic is Holly Feeny.

It's possible that "Larry Bailey" is an alias of an anarchist named "Larry Wayne Giddings". There is a record of Giddings being released from the federal pen in Lewisburg PA in 2004 or 5.

I noticed the mention of a .30 caliber carbine. My dad had one of those when I was a kid. It was a small, light, semi-auto that was easy to carry. I fired maybe 10 rounds through it. If I remember correctly, 30 carbine ammo was kind of hard to get. I don't remember it in the gun stores around here, we never bought any. You almost had to have a "military connection". That may be why Manson went back to the police and told them to "gimme back my bullets".

I've read the family borrowed Swartz's 59 Fairlane on numerous occasions to get "groceries". They always asked permission except for the nights murders. They often removed the backseat and later replaced it. I had 67 Fairlane 2-door, a 68 Torino 4-door, and a 72 Torino 2-door. All were very similar, I popped the backseat out of all of them more than once. Once I gave some high school cheerleaders a ride to practice. They sat back there drinking vodka, one of them vomited. If you pulled up on one side of the backseat bench, then walked around the other side and lifted up, the bench popped right out. To put it back, you just put the bench back in, sat on one side till it "popped", then did the same on the other. I'm sure the Manson family with their knowledge of cars knew this "trick".

Kimchi said...

Louis said:

"Here again, I read how the Aug 16 raid was filmed by the LAPD. I once read this in one of the books; that book also said that the film was later used by the LAPD in training on how to conduct a raid on such a compound, since this raid was the first of it's kind done by the LAPD. Does anyone know if this film still exists? Has anyone ever seen it?

Louis- those training films were made by LASD (Sheriff) and yes, they may still have them in their archives, but for public view? I doubt it... But you can try contacting the video production unit at STAR Center in Whitter and ask...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Sunset.

Sunset said:
"John Friedman Jr. was probably the son of John Friedman who was on the old Geraldo episode "Manson Family Reunion" wearing a mask. Friedman claimed "I knew Manson long before there was a Spahn's Ranch". Friedman, along with his wife Holly Feeny probably raised Sandra Good's son Ivan while she was in prison".

Everything you ever wanted to know about John Irwin Friedman, can be found right here on the LSB3 blog.

We were the first blog to break the story of Friedman's identity... his association with the family... and share his biography (all under one roof). It was an LSB3 exclusive.

The information was compiled with the help of several people, and still remains hands-down our top thread (according to stats and content).

http://www.lsb3.com/2012/07/lynyrd-brings-you-some-explosive-shit.html

Check it out Sunset!
Good stuff!!!

katie8753 said...

Great job Chris! So much information just in this short time period.

Recently Dale had purchased a dune buggy from a friend of Manson that was discovered to be made up from parts stolen from Dale’s storage yard.

Does anyone else see the irony of this? LOL.

katie8753 said...

Thanks for the info Kimchi!

Sunset I remember those old cars and how you had to "pop" the seat back in. LOL.

The 28 July mini raid could have netted Plumlee an AWOL Marine, and Beausoleil who was probably still wearing the clothes he had murdered Hinman in the previous day.

This is interesting stuff. I didn't even think about Bobby still wearing the same clothes he killed Hinman in. That's creepy in itself...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"The film was later used by the LAPD in training on how to conduct a raid on such a compound".

ACADEMY CLASS 101 - HOW TO CONDUCT A RAID

Step #1:
Conduct the raid, three days AFTER the search warrant has expired.
LMAO!

It's borderline comical isn't it?

----------------------------------

Poirot said:
"There definitly is a Keystone Cops aspect to the TLB saga"

You ain't kidding.

The "Family" got away with so much crap, it wasn't even funny.
And when they did get caught, they often got a slap on the wrist.

Heck...
They almost got away with murder... several murders.
They literally had to rat on themselves to get caught! (i.e., Atkins)

These cops and detectives couldn't find their own ass, with both hands! LOLOL!

You really have to wonder, what would have happened, if Atkins never squealed...

In the words of the great Harold True:
"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

LOL!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Great post as always, Sunset!!!!
Thanks!!

(((((*****KIMCHI*****)))))

johnnyseattle said...

Chris
Thank you for the comprehensive thread. It certainly helps to provide context and background.

One thing that strikes me is just how careless Charlie is in terms of hiding his criminality (which is consistent with him also returning back to Cielo the night of the Tate murders). Of course, running a 'Family' with all the girls to attend to and the various criminal scams they were involved in probably didn't allow for much time to really reflect or plan things out. His mind was probably 'helter skelter' at best given all the stimuli (drugs, sex, etc) available to him. Given all that, Charlie was probably lucky to have lasted as long as he did before before getting caught and put back in prison.

Again, much thanks Chris. I look forward to reading your next thread.

katie8753 said...

Johnny that's true. Manson was evidently bragging to the police about his arsenal. It's amazing that he stayed out of jail as long as he did!

matt prokes said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...Anyone know where we can obtain a copy?
I'll post it for everyone (right here on this thread), if we can find it.
Matt Prokes?

Kimchi is right,someone in California would have to do some searching on this one.
I tend to think that its lost or unavailible to the general public or else someone would have found it in the last 20 years.
But you never know it might be in a file cabinet somewhere collecting dust just waiting to be watched.

matt prokes said...

Maybe Bugliosi would know but I don't think Hes in any shape to answer Questions these days.
You would think someone in the D.A.s office would have taken a look at it.

Venus said...

Very good rsearch on the thread, Chris!!!!

I need to get busy and finish some of the ones I've been working on. Note to self: fisnish one before starting another....

johnnyseattle said...

Looking forward to reading your new Threads, Venus.
Looks like Lynyrd will be sporting some mighty fine Threads in 2013. No name calling, no catcalls, just some damn fine research presented in an informative/highly readable format.


katie8753 said...

Right Johnny. Venus I'm looking forward to your threads as well.

You know, the crux of this case, in my opinion, is how Charlie managed to control, or manipulate, so many people in this arena.

Not only his "family", as it were, but actually the police investigations.

I know people don't like the word "brainwash". But he seems to (and actually still does) have an ability to control (or for a better word re-educate) people on a certain molecular/psychological level and maintain that control for long periods of time.

It's evidenced by these writings.

Some of these people who followed Charlie's ideals and orders to the max have negated these feelings as time has passed and the drugs have worn off, and have disassociated themselves from him. And some, I fear, have not.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P., I don't think that Charlie was aware that Lottsapoppa wasn't dead. He knew he was taken to the hospital but I think that he thought he died there. I think that's what generated the unnatural fear he felt from the Black Panthers.

katie8753 said...

But, if you put another spin on it, if he did know that Crowe wasn't dead, he could still fear the Black Panthers' revenge just for the shooting..... So who knows???

katie8753 said...

Anyway, Mr. P, did you know that Snow White was abused? HA HA.

I think I'll turn in. Night y'all! :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Starship's Syracuse team, is currently playing Michigan.

To watch the game LIVE and FREE (online), follow the link below.

The picture quality is excellent.
It takes a little while to load... and they make you watch a couple commercials first... but, it's excellent.

http://www.ncaa.com/march-madness-live/?gameId=602&sessionToken=kEF194GnLM2Ha5C5JCA2TJFeO

The score is 45-41 right now.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

45-48 now...

Close Game!

CarolMR said...

Thanks for a great post, Chris. Count me among those looking forward to Venus' posts.

MrPoirot said...

katie8753 said...
Anyway, Mr. P, did you know that Snow White was abused? HA HA.


Poirot replies:

If you are at a convention with one hour to reach an audience about domestic violence I think using Snow White as an amusing analogy is pretty smart.

If I were being yelled at and being demeaned by Martinez I would be jailed for contempt because I'd yell right back at him. A local attorney in Pheonix said that if Jodi gets convicted it will be in spite of Martinez not because of Martinez. I think Jodi is guilty but I also think the defense has a right to litigate and call witnesses who aren't subjected to a screaming DA. Nurmi and Wilmott have the difficult job of defending a woman who photograghed herself committing a brutal murder. I think when Martinez was out in front of the courthouse signing autographs that he committed misconduct. He may have blown a slam dunk case.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Syracuse lost to Michigan.

"Two players who accounted for 25 points a game this season combined for three measly buckets. That was easily the difference in a 61-56 semifinal loss to Michigan".

Michigan will face Louisville in the final.

Sorry Starship.
I was pulling for ya...

wharf rat said...

Great read Chris and thanks very much.
Think about this crew dropping Owsley's acid every
Few days, listening to Charlie's rap, the White album
And some petty crooks bullshit over and over.

They hooked up with this trainwreck when it was all peace and love. But over the next year and a half, these chicks did give up their "ego" because they were "going with Charlie's flow". I think that many of them thought that that was what a 60's commune was. We're they going to jump out of the ford on a garbage run without shoes and run back to the parental units.
Until they when to DeAth Valley and it really turned ugly and Kitty etc started to bolt, I think they thought everything was how it should be. Besides the chop chop. Just my 2 cents. But the acid, isolation, introduction to petty crime and Charlie's rap are the main reason these girls fell into what they eventually did, whether it was killing people or sitting on a corner.
Love to lurk., thought I would try to type on my phone. Prob not a great idea but oh we'll
And Archie is the shit Lynyrd!!!

Mrstormsurge said...

Thanks Chris for your work and contribution. I can see potentially great value in establishing a timeline threading together multiple accounts to see how things unfolded and what people claimed that can and can't be corroborated.

sunset77 said...

I think I've read that at some point, Bruce Davis was packing a "Radom" pistol when he was at Gary Hinman's. I'd never even heard of this type until I started looking into this case.

I think this type pistol was produced in Poland by the Poles until 1939 when the Nazi's invaded, who then began producing a Nazi version.

Interestingly, (to me at least), I've been talking online to a person in Poland on unrelated matters, that has basically told me the entire history of Poland from about the 10th century. He sent me a video this morning about the Radom Pistol.

louis365 said...

Thanks Kimchi and Matt for your help. Thank you too Lynyrd for calling attention to it. It's a film I'd sure like to see...The Family getting the bums rush from the cops lol.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...
"The film was later used by the LAPD in training on how to conduct a raid on such a compound".

ACADEMY CLASS 101 - HOW TO CONDUCT A RAID

Step #1:
Conduct the raid, three days AFTER the search warrant has expired.
LMAO!

It's borderline comical isn't it?

LOL Lynyrd

BTW Chris...great thread!

sunset77 said...

I had to laugh, the dude in Poland just started telling me about Roman Polanski and "The fearless busters of vampire".

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

LOL

Sunset... you ROCK!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

WOW... WHARF RAT!!!

It's been SO long brother!
It's GREAT to see you.
I hope you're doing well!

I swear to Gawd...
I just thought of you, yesterday.

I was going through some old blog stuff yesterday, and I came across your name.
I said to Katie... "I wonder what ever happened to Wharf Rat?"

Weird huh??
One of life's strange coincidences...

Come around more often Bro!
We love you man!

To this day, I still feel bad about the initial "introduction" you got from Katie.
A thousand apologies...

Please brother... stop-in more often.

Peace... LS

katie8753 said...

Hi Wharf Rat! Good to see you!

STORMY!! :)

I had to laugh, the dude in Poland just started telling me about Roman Polanski and "The fearless busters of vampire".

Sunset that's amazing! This guy is telling you the complete history of Poland? I couldn't even tell you the complete history of the U.S. I remember the basic plot, but can't give you blow by blow accounts since 1776. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I also thought of Lynn and Lurch yesterday.

Remember Lynn?
She submitted some REALLY cool threads!

Who can forget her thread about Thomas Noguchi and the Verdugo Hills Cemetary?!
(That story could have been used in a horror movie... but it was 100% TRUE!)

http://www.lsb3.com/2011/04/thomas-noguchi-cielo-coroner-strange.html

And then... there was her thread about Wavy's Hog farm.
Another classic!

http://www.lsb3.com/2011/04/wavys-hog-farm-submitted-by-lynn-writes.html

She would always stop-in on friday (at exactly 7pm), and tell us where she was heading for the night.
It was always somewhere wicked f#cking cool! LOL
Concerts... LA clubs... wine parties... beach barbecues... pig roasts.
I'll admit it... I was jealous.
I lived vicariously through Lynn for an entire summer!
Ahahahaha!!!

And who can forget Lurch-master, with his midnight visit to Spahn's Ranch on August 9th?!!!
The guy comes on the blog at 1am, and tells us he's currently strolling the Spahn's area, with a flashlight!! LOL!
Hands-down one of the most memorable blog moments at LSB3! LOL

Good times... good times...

sunset77 said...

I've never seen the entire flim "The Fearless Vampire Killers". They want $2.99 to watch it on YouTube.

The first "free" link I tried worked, I have it playing in another tab right now. I think the film was made before Roman Polanski and Sharon Tate were married, apparently both appear in the film. I just started watching it, Polanski looks very young, if I'm looking at the right guy.

The link to the film is HERE. I don't know if it will work for everyone depending on your browser, country, etc.

katie8753 said...

Sunset I think that's how Sharon & Roman met, filming The Fearless Vampire Killers.

I remember shortly after Sharon was killed, they started showing all her movies, mostly at drive-ins where I lived. I had never heard of Sharon before she was killed.

I remember we all piled in the car one night to see The Fearless Vampire Killers at the drive-in and I don't think we even stayed for the whole movie. It's one of those movies you either love or hate. LOL.

Lynyrd, I miss Lynn & Lurch too!!

Mrstormsurge said...

Funny you should mention wavy gravy, lynyrd. I watched an episode of my alltime fav show, The Fugitive, the other night. One of the guest stars was a beautiful young woman named Bonnie Beecher. She would in a few years after that show become Mrs. wavy gravy and still is to this day.

Katie, thx for the hugs. Good people here.

wharf rat said...

Thx for the welcome back Lynyrd and Katie.
Stormy I had no idea that was Wavy Gravy's wife.
And then the Hog Farm's connection to Manson
Oo-ee-oo. By the way stormy, I am out of smokes
N to lazy to go to the store. Can I take a drag off of yours'.

Mrstormsurge said...

sure. hell I'd trade a carton for some gerber's and talcum powder right about now.

MrPoirot said...

sunset77 said...
I think I've read that at some point, Bruce Davis was packing a "Radom" pistol when he was at Gary Hinman's. I'd never even heard of this type until I started looking into this case.

I think this type pistol was produced in Poland by the Poles until 1939 when the Nazi's invaded, who then began producing a Nazi version.

Interestingly, (to me at least), I've been talking online to a person in Poland on unrelated matters, that has basically told me the entire history of Poland from about the 10th century. He sent me a video this morning about the Radom Pistol.(end quote)

Poirot replies:

I saw this pistol yesterday in the South Carolina National Guard historical Museum in columbia SC. It is/was a pistol well known to any soldier in the WW2 European theatre. It can be described as the Polish 1911 made in the Luger 9mm caliber. It looks very much like the Colt 1911 pistol that Squeaky used in her assassination attempt on Pres Ford. Squeaky's pistol was the .45 caliber.
Clem disposed of the Radom pistol on a LA beach after the Labianca killings.

wharf rat said...

Ha ha. That was awesome!!!!

Also Lynyrd the other day after reading over at the evil one's that bobby was Ivan's father (which I had never heard) and using the google your John Friedman post was one of the first results to pop up and I had forgotten
all about reading it when you first published it. It is a great read plus it has pictures. Great for inbreds like all of us! Lol

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Wow Stormy... interesting twist.

"The Fugitive" was a great movie!
Harrison Ford was great, but Tommy Lee Jones had some awesome lines, as well!

Best line in the movie:

"Listen up, ladies and gentlemen! Our fugitive has been on the run for ninety minutes. Average foot speed over uneven ground barring injuries is 4 miles per hour and that gives us a radius of... six miles. What I want out of each and every one of you is a hard-target search of every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, henhouse, outhouse and doghouse in that area. Checkpoints go up at fifteen miles. Your fugitive's name is Doctor Richard Kimble. Go get him!"

Here's the scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_cczIWvBq4

Classic!
LOL!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Wharf, for the kind words.

I explained that Bobby was Ivan's biological father in the comments section (of the Friedman thread), as well.
I disclosed that information July 19, 2012 at 6:45 PM
(It's my fifth comment on the Friedman thread).
That thread was a double-banger. LOL

Most information related to TLB is on here somewhere Wharf... you just gotta dig a little bit. LOL!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Anyway Wharf...
That's why my Friedman thread popped-up in your google search for the Bobby/Ivan stuff.

wharf rat said...

I read that post the first time you published it, but do to my California meds I totally forgot about it.
IMHO it was one of your best.

katie8753 said...

Stormy, you little sweetie pie! You and Wharf Rat crack me up. LOL.

Mr. P, I agree that Martinez shouldn't be yelling at the witnesses like a Drill Sargent BUT I also take offense to the defendant and the 2 expert witnesses sassing, back talking & trying to talk over the Prosecutor, as well as refusing to answer direct questions. The behavior that goes on in this courtroom is bizarre.

LaViolette is basing her opinion of Travis mostly on Jodi's lies, so her opinion isn't worth much to me anyway.

starship said...

Getting over the loss, life goes on and really, it's only a game.

But the REFS SUCK!

starship said...

In 2003, Syracuse defeated Texas in the Final Four (booyah, Katie!)

I was hoping to be able to say the same thing to AC...but not to happen.

starship said...

Good post here too. Might explain the story of the sheriff guy who claimed that they knew all about what Manson was up to (Grand Theft auto I guess) but because they were hoping he would fight a war with the Black Panthers they were told to let him be.

But it really was only from July 28 until August 16.

starship said...

I wonder if Charlie thinks at all about tonight's championship game and is pulling for Louisville?

katie8753 said...

Starship! LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I'm happy for Rick Pitino... winning it all last night, with Louisville.

He's a local guy.
Born in New York, he played college ball for UMass Amherst, and coached the Boston Celtics.

He got a real bad rap, from the Celtics fans.

Bird, McHale and Parish had retired.

In 1993... the Celtics picked-up Reggie Lewis to fill Bird's shoes.
Lewis was gonna lead us to more championships... or, so we thought.
Unfortunately... Lewis mysteriously died of heart issues while shooting baskets during the off-season.

Around that time... Pitino stepped-in as head coach.
It was the worst possible time.

Celtics fans were used to winning with the "Big Three".
(Bird, Parish, McHale)
Problem is... those guys were gone, and the Celts had no talent.
Pitino got blamed for everything.

Granted... Pitino had a pretty bad record with the Celts... but, he had no big bodies on the team, and no talent to work with.

As my buddy always says:
"You can't make chicken salad, out of chicken shit".

Anyway...
I always thought Pitino was a solid coach, who got a bad rap in Boston.

After last night's win... Pitino is now, the only coach in NCAA history, to lead two different schools to a National Championship (Kentucky and Louisville).

Pitino was elected to the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame about a week ago.

Good for him!

I love stories of redemption...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Here's a staggering statistic for ya (LOL):

Women in Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, Arkansas and Tennessee are more likely to be overweight or obese than anywhere else in the country.

In Mississippi, a staggering 65 percent of women are either overweight or obese. That means nearly two of every three women in the state is either overweight or obese.

On the other end of the spectrum, women in Hawaii, Colorado, Nevada, Utah and Massachusetts have the healthiest weights in America.


Wow...
2 out of 3 women in Mississippi are obese??? WTF??
What are they feeding'em down there?? LOL!

SurelyYouJest11 said...

Yay Louisville! Bought them in a calcutta for $740 and got a return of $2484.

katie8753 said...

Wow...
2 out of 3 women in Mississippi are obese??? WTF??
What are they feeding'em down there?? LOL!


Lots of But-tah!! LOL.

MrPoirot said...

And the other third are anorexic.

katie8753 said...

Well today was day 739 of the defense “expert witness” Alyce LaViolette, the denture-disabled pro-active proponent for Jodi Arias.

You’d think at $300/hour she could afford some crowns. She and Jodi are constantly licking their choppers. Hmmm…..

BTW, she states emphatically that she’s NOT an expert on orgasms. HA HA.

strix aluco said...

Hi All, Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not used to this blogging,but is there anyway to search the whole blog from start to recent posts?
Looking through tons of old photos I would love to know what others think about the different hand signals family members and CM have flashed over the years.I'm sure its been noticed eons ago so would love more info if any available.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Strix,

#1) There's a subject index in the sidebar.

#2) There's also a "search tool" installed at the very bottom of the blog.
You type in a keyword (or two), and it does a basic search.
It works alright... but, it's nothing to write home about.
It misses a lot, especially if it's a popular keyword.

The subject of those "hand signs" has come up a few times, here and there.

Here's a related thread, off the top of my head:

http://www.lsb3.com/2011/03/any-hard-core-manson-supporters-know.html

katie8753 said...

Hi Strix. I hope you find what you're looking for. Lots of info on this blog. :)

Well one more thing about the Arias trial. Kirk Nurmi has been as silent as the Sphynx during the testimony of LaViolette. He revealed earlier that he tried to get off this case earlier, but was unable to.

He's just sitting there with his arms folded while Jodi and her female attorney write things down, joke and laugh like 2 teenagers at a telephone party.

This guy is probably thinking how he spent all that time at law school and now, his career and reputation is ruined defending this creature and he's going to have to resort to selling used cars.

Not that there's anything wrong with that....

A.C. Fisher-Aldag said...

In 2003, Syracuse defeated Texas in the Final Four (booyah, Katie!)

I was hoping to be able to say the same thing to AC...but not to happen.

??? Don't get it. Is that a sports reference?

sbuch113 said...

Katie- I agree.....Nurmi is a slouch.

insufficient council appeal in the making

matt prokes said...

Officer George Garp in his Field Investigation Report would include the following quotes attributed to Manson “…we got into a hassle with a couple of those black motherfuckers and we put one of them in hospital"

Was Manson talking about Crowe here?
And if He was why would he say this to a Cop if he really thought he had killed Crowe?

katie8753 said...

Wow it looks like the King of Swing didn't come around to make the Sandman stop the comments for 22 hours.....

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...
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St. Circumstance said...

Hey guys :)

since you are off topic and I know Katie loves a good real true crime story...

one of my closest friends growing up in small town NJ was a girl named Julie Macho. She had an older sister named Donna who was a stunner! My freshman year in high school Donna was voted most beautiful in our High School yearbook.

That summer she was murdered. It was a big deal in my small central Jersey town. My dad was a cop for 27 years and it was the only murder that happened the entire time. Up until very recently they never found her body- but they felt from the amount of blood left in her basement room ( at the time) that she couldnt be alive.

a couple of years ago they finally found her body after all of these years. It was the first time I thought about her in over 20 years...

Today I went on facebook and a friend who still lives up there had posted this...


THE FAMILY OF DONNA MACHO WOULD LIKE TO MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT. TWO YEARS AGO, WE RECEIVED INFORMATION FROM THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE THAT THERE WAS A DNA MATCH AND THEY KNOW WHO MURDERED DONNA. OUR FAMILY HAS BEEN WAITING FOR TWO YEARS FOR THEM TO MAKE AN ARREST. I PUT A CALL INTO THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE THREE DAYS AGO, AND THEY COULDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO RETURN MY CALL. SO, HERE IT IS. NATHANIEL HARVEY, WHO HAS BEEN IN PRISON IN NEW JERSEY SINCE 1985 FOR THE MURDER OF IRENE SCHNAPPS BROKE INTO DONNA'S BEDROOM IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT IN FEBRUARY IN 1984. HE RAPED HER AND HE BEAT HER TO THE POINT WHERE THE POLICE FELT THERE WAS TOO MUCH BLOOD LEFT BEHIND THAT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE SHE LEFT THAT ROOM ALIVE. UNFORTUNATELY, SHE WAS STILL ALIVE. WE BELIEVE THAT HE FORCED HER OUT OF HER HOME AT GUNPOINT. WE BELIEVE THAT HE THREATENED THE LIVES OF EVERYONE ELSE IN THAT HOUSE THAT NIGHT IF SHE REFUSED TO LEAVE WITH HIM. THEN HE TOOK HER OUT INTO A FIELD AND SHOT HER IN THE HEAD. DONNA DIED A HERO, SAVING THE LIVES OF FOUR OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THAT HOUSE, INCLUDING MY THEN THREE-YEAR OLD SON. WE WANT THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE TO PUT NATHANIEL HARVEY ON TRIAL FOR HER MURDER. WE THANK DONNA'S HIGH SCHOOL CLASSMATES WHO HAVE CONTINUED TO BE A COMFORT TO OUR FAMILY.

St. Circumstance said...

The boogie man has been real in my life for a very long time...

not sure if subconsciously this had anything to do with my Manson obsession...

but it is part of my life experience nonetheless- and I can tell you personally how freaky it when something happens to people you know at that early of an age...

her family have been after this cause for years, and because she wasn't famous and this goes on out of the public eye- everyone admires there persistence and encourages them to keep fighting for justice....

Maybe something to think about that the next time we criticize Debra Tate No??

true most of there fight was to identify the killers not keep the imprisoned- but now that they have identified the killer- I bet they go at it the same way....

and I would too


http://justice4donna.tripod.com/

St. Circumstance said...

Do you think people back in the day who were warned that Karma is a bitch ever thought they would have to deal with DNA evidence coming into play someday????

It almost- almost, makes you feel badly for these pathetic jackasses who thought they had every base covered...

shaking there heads in disbelief-

ya never know what he future is going to bring- good lesson for all

I will never be able to run for president, but I am staying out of the clink as well lol

as I have said often- they have the wrong kind of bars there!

katie8753 said...

Thanks for sharing St. Circumstance. It's amazing how some cases can finally be solved after all those years.

Maybe something to think about that the next time we criticize Debra Tate No??

So true!

strix aluco said...

Thanks for your help and patience Lynyrd and Kate found what I needed.

You may all think bad of me for this but we are all breathing a sigh of relief now Mrs M Thatcher has departed this earth, sad thing is because of her destroying our mining industry,there's not enough coal to burn the evil female dog!
SHE was our UK boogey man who destroyed more people than CM ever could in his wildest dreams.
OH just discovered I can read the Manson Myth in its entirety online--- the week just gets better!

katie8753 said...

Strix I'm glad you found what you wanted.

Where is Sir Winston Churchill when you need him? My favorite quote from Sir Winston:

Lady at party to Sir Winston: Sir, you're drunk.

Sir Winston's reply: Madam, you're ugly. But tomorrow I'll be sober....

katie8753 said...

Well Charlie isn't the only inmate who has fans.

Jodi Arias has dug up a he/she named Donovan Bering who meets with her every night and tweets insults to the prosecutor and others on HLN for her.

Get a gander at Jodi's new friends, who seem to have garnered girth. Cows have four stomachs, kinda like these two.

Over the teeth and past the gums....look out stomachs...here it comes....

Question from the jury. Should they be herded or hooded?:

http://abcnews.go.com/meta/search/imageDetail?format=plain&source=http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/abc_arias_friends_mi_130220

1nonbeliever said...

Wow...
2 out of 3 women in Mississippi are obese??? WTF??
What are they feeding'em down there?? LOL!

Skinny people

La-de-la said...

Katie,

Don't you just LOVE the rule in Arizona that allows jurors to ask questions????

I'm loving it and the questions the jurors are asking. It has renewed my faith that there is intelligent life out there! LOL

katie8753 said...

Yes La-de-la I love it too! This jury, unlike the Casey Anthony jury, has not only brain power, but they have eyes in their heads. Does Jodi think they don't see all the crap she pulls during the trial? All the eye rolls, middle finger indications, mouthing "sustained" to her attorneys' objections? It's so obvious that the jury thinks Jodi is nothing but a liar, and that her "expert witness" is basing her opinion strictly on her lies.

LaViolette was ORDERED to return next week. When she started arguing with the judge, the judge told her she didn't want to hear about her personal problems, that she WILL return next week because she's still subpoenaed. I LOVED that! LOL.

1nonbeliever said...

Regardless on the outcome of Jodi's trial, this judge's reputation will suffer. She cannot seem to make any judgments without going to a sidebar. She has disallowed very pertinent and permissible evidence, and she has lost control of the jurors and trial itself. DP case or not, this trial would have been over weeks ago with a better more experienced judge. I also find it rude that this judge does not stand when the jurors enter or exits the courtroom. Convict Jodi the female version of Tex already and get on with Zimmermans trial!!