Monday, February 11, 2013


Who was the mastermind?

This guy?
Or this guy?
 
Tex wasn't involved in Hinman's murder at all. 

If Manson didn't know the reason for the trip to Cielo Drive, why did he ask if they had remorse when they got back?

If Manson didn't know Tex & the girls were going to kill the LaBiancas, why did he go in and tie them up?

Manson is the one who didn't like Shorty.  Manson is the reason that Shorty was killed.

We are never going to agree on the aspects of this case.  There are too many variables.  There are also lots of new theories about what happened and why.

But, in my thinking, the only reliable information we have is when one or more of the perps tells the same information the same way.  In other words, if one person says this and another says that, it's not reliable.  But when 2 or more agree, it's much more plausible.

171 comments:

starship said...

Yes, I agree. It's a good starting point, and as logical of a place to begin as you can. And that's why it is pretty easy, for me at least, to discount some other theories.

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...

Thanks Starship!

A number of new theories have emerged in the last few years. None of which can be substantiated by fact, i.e., mentioned in any police report or court transcript. The only source cited is "a reliable source".

Not discounting that "reliable sources" exist, but what I'm flummoxed over is that these "sources" chose not to speak for years and suddenly are struck with the "magpie syndrome" to an aspiring author.

It's reminiscent of a recently published book in which an author writes a tribute to a certain family, including fantastic tales and heroic "knight-like" actions, none of which can be substantiated.

Oh well...I digress... LOL.

Bottom line is I think Charlie was in charge of all these murders. BUT...his minions are just as guilty, seeing as they are the actual killers.

It seems that the arguable questions remain the same: Did Charlie program these seemingly normal young people to kill? Or were they actually "born bad"?

Did Tex & Linda plan all this out and leave Charlie holding the bag? Or were they minions too?

When we finally figure that out, we might just figure out the "why".....

This is all just my opinion. Others are welcome!

katie8753 said...

Sorry double comment. I had to delete one. LOL.

louis365 said...

Davis could have been the mastermind...

louis365 said...

Davis could have been the mastermind...

katie8753 said...

Louis! HA HA. Maybe Clem was the Mastermind. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Okay tough crowd. LOL.

Well, let's adjunct to another subject for a minute. That what was so much fun in blogs of yore. When things got a little slow, we would just talk about all kinds of things. Plus this is my thread and I can do what I want. HA HA.

Today Jodi Arias took the stand and after much ado about nothing finally said she broke up with Travis because he was cheating on her (again). Then because she was having trouble getting a job as a waitress (hello.....can't get a job as a waitress???) she accepted his offer to clean his house for $200 a month. She readily accepted. And had regular sex with him in her "French Maid's Outfit". But one day she left his house and went back for an alabaster angel that she had forgotten to take and walked in on him "doing the nasty" to some pics of young boys. She says she drove away nauseated and got home and puked (I wonder if she puked after she killed him). Then he called and asked her to come back over and "make his bed". She says she went back over to his house and had sex with him to "help him". HA HA HA.

This bitch is a cornucopia of lies. I can't wait for the prosecutor to question her.

Okay, carry on with the Manson case. LOL.

MrPoirot said...

Tex is not the mastermind type.

Jodi Arias may have multipersonalities according to dr Drew. She's sick alright but I think this trial is about Mormanisn not murder. Travis is a bad Morman so he was fair game.

Jodi led a transient life as a migranr waitress chsing tourist sweason. She frequently moved and would drive 500 miles at the drop of a hat. She lived mostly in California yet she dated guys in Arizona. She'd drive 2200 miles in a week just to kill somebody.

If Jodi beats the rap she will be excommunicated by the Morman church for breaking the single season record for anal sex acts.

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...

MR. P! Right-ee-ooooo!!!

Jodi was a Mormon "drop in" and tried that life until it didn't suit her anymore. She didn't care about their teachings at all. She was in lust.

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...

I agree Mr. P. I don't think Tex could mastermind his way to the bathroom. Much less the intricate goings on for 2 nights of murder. I think his IQ was reduced to single digit number. LOL.

katie8753 said...

If anyone thinks that Tex was the Mastermind, they're not chiming in.

Hmmmmm.....That's strange.....

katie8753 said...

Okay I'll leave you all with this laughter. It's just pure funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=yqrTZdWJU7s&NR=1

Night ya'll.

Leigh said...

Tex, as a human being then and now, is a moral vortex who had no qualms about selling drugs, ripping people off and ultimately murdering people, but I don't buy him as a mastermind. I think Tex was reliable muscle. Manson was attuned to his psychopathic characteristics and so dispatched him to do TLB knowing he was plenty capable. I do wonder, had people like Bobby and Mary been at the ranch at the time of TLB, whether they would have been sent instead of some of the others who ultimately went. (Though this theory will be a non-starter to anyone who may think that TLB was motivated, at least in part, to get Bobby out of jail.) I wonder how much, if any, substitution happened. Did Manson want to dirty as many hands as possible or would he have been content to send those who'd already proven themselves capable of cold-blooded murder...against a friend, no less? (Though I do wonder about Karl Stubbs and whether that was Tex, or any of the other Family men.)

In all of the testimony I've seen, and in memoirs like Paul Watkins', Tex is never portrayed as someone who vied for a leadership position - unlike Bruce Davis. I think Tex was content to hang back, get high, fix vehicles, have sex, roam around and generally live for his own pleasure with little, if any, genuine care for anyone else. He was happy to kill and steal, but didn't care enough or just wasn't inclined to lead.

starship said...

Yes, there is too much testimony, and not from just the killers themselves, as to how CM was large and in charge. Wilson, Jakobsen, DeCarlo, Watkins...

Brian Davis said...

Katie wrote: If Manson didn't know Tex & the girls were going to kill the LaBiancas, why did he go in and tie them up?
Because tying the LaBiancas up was how you do it.
Remember Manson supposedly told the crew, "I'm going out with you tonight to show you all how its done" because they were off the charts at Cielo.

Manson is the one who didn't like Shorty. Manson is the reason that Shorty was killed.

I agree here and can't imagine there is anyone who argues this.

But, in my thinking, the only reliable information we have is when one or more of the perps tells the same information the same way.
In other words, if one person says this and another says that, it's not reliable. But when 2 or more agree, it's much more plausible.


What if the perps have a pact to tell the same story ? The stories the TLB perps have told have rarely been the same so how can we give 100% credibility to them ?

The convicted stories don't add up or match the evidence.

One thing I am convinced is Joel Rostau is the link. Thanks Katie ! Good post !

leary7 said...

Katie...don't take this the wrong way but it actually cheers me that this thread has little response. Maybe people are finally sick of the "alternative" nonsense.

Bottom line...

Charlie Manson could/can be a charming and charismatic fellow. Some folk like him to the point of wanting to exonerate or at least minimize his role and responsibility for the TLB murders. So they look at Tex and Bruce and the Bobby-lovin girls and speculate on drug burns and robberies and mafia hits and so on.
Forty-three years later and it still all comes back to Charlie. They'll be people are hundred years from now when we are all dust still diggin on Charlie and promoting alternative crapola.
It is what it is - the TLB murders were a clusterfuck of rage and delusional nihilistic nonsense. There was no sense to it, but folk will still be trying to make sense of it long after we are all gone.

sbuch113 said...

It seems to me, Watson and Manson, together planned the crimes.
Tex just used the ever convenient "he told me to" copout.

Leigh said...
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Leigh said...

I have called these murders the "Tex Watson murders" before, elsewhere - not because I think Tex was the mastermind and shot-caller, but rather because he put the knife into each and every TLB victim with his own hand, by his own admission. That he had that capability in him, with none of the "woe is me, life's been so horrible, I've been abused from the cradle to the grave" stuff that Charlie falls back on should be enough to make him infamous alongside Charlie, despite being, well...Not Charlie.

Leary: "There was no sense to it, but folk will still be trying to make sense of it long after we are all gone."

I tend to agree.

Leigh said...

Earlier comment deleted for double posting!

Leigh said...

Also, it means something that the girls held such persistent vigil on the streets of LA during the original TLB trial, all for Charlie. It means something that they made all kinds of impassioned, rambling, barely intelligible statements to the assembled press in protest at Charlie's treatment. No one showed anything like comparable loyalty to Tex, so I don't see these ladies joining Tex for a vicious, exhausting bloodbath without at least being nudged in that direction by Charlie.

leary7 said...

that's an interesting point Leigh. We know of the girls who eventually rejected Manson - Gypsy and Pat and Leslie etc. And the girls who have remained loyal - Cappy and Sandy and probably Squeaky. And we'd love to know how Nancy, Mary and Ruth Ann feel about Charlie nowadays.
But that would be interesting to know how they feel about Tex as well. He seemed to be well-liked within the Family. Most of us bloggers hate Tex not just because of his vile actions but also because of his sanctimonious (not real) conversion to Jesus freak. I just wonder if some of the girls developed the same post facto anger towards Tex that they did towards Charlie.

Jersydevil said...

Joel Rostau definitely a character I think needs more looking into very little info about him
If anyone is interested both Kenneth Angers film with B,B and Mondo Hollywood are both available on YOUTUBE so much for the myth that Bobby stole the print of Angers film and buried it in the desert I'd suggest playing this video without sounds the soundtrack is about as pleasant as nails on a chalk board strangely the soundtrack is credited to Mick Jagger not B,B




katie8753 said...

Hey guys thanks! Great comments! Starship, Leigh & Leary, I agree with all you said. Good stuff!

jeffrey jeff said...

"But, in my thinking, the only reliable information we have is when one or more of the perps tells the same information the same way.
In other words, if one person says this and another says that, it's not reliable. But when 2 or more agree, it's much more plausible."


I think one reason that the imprisoned members of the Family have stuck with the Helter Skelter story is for legal reasons. Some still have illusions that they will be paroled some day. They can deflect some of their own culpability by claiming that they were just young, gullible kids brainwashed by the older hippie savant Charles Manson. "Please Mr. Parole Board member, The Devil made me do it!" I would not be surprised if they have received legal advice to stick to the Charly-made-me-do-it story.

katie8753 said...

Hi Brian!!

I know that Charlie said he went along the 2nd night because they were too "messy" the first night and he wanted to show them how to do it.

But I'm confused as to how tying someone up and splitting makes it less messy. But regardless of how messy it is, how does this action make Charlie less "in charge". In other words, do you think that Charlie was the author of these murders...or Tex?

I know the TLB killers were liars, but for instance: Tex, Pat, Susan, Linda and Leslie have all said they didn't know the killers. That leaves me with the assumption, based on the words of the killers in interviews and parole hearings, that this is a fact.

In other words, why would they continue to lie about such a simple thing? Does it make you more or less guilty of killing someone if you knew them or not?

As far as Rostau goes, I don't know why he is so important. Maybe I'm missing something here...

katie8753 said...

Ooopps, I meant to say "didn't know the victims". LOL.

Jersydevil said...

Hello Katie I suppose the interest in Rosary has alot to do with Shrecks new book and his theories about the drugs deal the night of the murders and that he new or was Jays dealer and that he was murdered in NYC I believe in early 70, sorry not sure of the date

Jersydevil said...

Rostau sorry this phone blows has a mind of it's own

katie8753 said...

Hi Jeffrey. You might be right that the attorneys for the convicted killers have advised them to stick with the "Charlie made me do it" story, but I believe that Bruce Davis' attorney advised him to come clean with his guilt. And I believe that in the last parole hearing Bruce did. Up until now, he's downplayed his part in Shorty's murder but I believe in the last hearing, he went into more detail about his involvement and remorse. I think that's probably why he got the OK to be released.

I really think that when the others come up for parole in the future, they are going to follow his lead. I think Bruce's final release (if it happens) will be a pivotal force for the others to think they might finally be freed.

Although I really doubt that Tex, Pat or Charlie will ever get out. And Charlie of course will never express remorse or regret. He never has.

katie8753 said...

Hi Jersy. Thanks.

I haven't read Mr. Schreck's book but I've seen others post about Rostau somehow being involved.

I don't doubt for a minute that Rostau was in the drug trade, but I'm not sure who his contacts were.

I know he was dating a girl who worked for Jay, but beyond that, I'm not sure exactly how he fits into this scenario.

louis365 said...

I'll throw one out Katie....Sanda Good was the originator of Helter Skelter...

MrPoirot said...

Jersydevil said...
Hello Katie I suppose the interest in Rosary has alot to do with Shrecks new book and his theories about the drugs deal the night of the murders and that he new or was Jays dealer and that he was murdered in NYC I believe in early 70, sorry not sure of the date


Poirot replies:

Rostau was interviewed by Bugliosi. Rostau knew Frykowski as a personal friend but was not a friend or dealer of Jay's. Just because Rostau dated Jay's secretary doesn't mean Rostau was connected to Jay. There was no direct link between Rostau and Jay. Schreck is wrong. Rostau said he did not know Jay personally. Schreck simply manufactured a personal relationship between Rostau and Jay. Everybody in Hollywood in 1969 did not know each other but I'm sure that Shreck can prove that they did. You have to be careful what you believe when reading Shreck. He makes more erroneous claims than most TLB writers. Shreck likes to create his own truth. I suspect he is a con man to some extent.

katie8753 said...

Hi Louis, Sbuch & Mr. P!!! You guys are all great! Lots of great ideas and discussion.

St. Circumstance...I miss you and wish you were back....

I'm gonna hit the hay. I've got a lot going on this week, but you all feel free to continue your discussions!

G'night all (Carol Burnett ear pull, LOL) :)

Jersydevil said...

Hello Mr. P I agree to an extent that some of Shrecks points seem a bit of a stretch I,E Oliver Stone no expert on the case I do try to read anything MANSON related I can get my hands on but Shrecks book is not the first place I that Rostau knew Jay
Would still like to know more about him was he murdered to silence him ?
I'M here to learn from those with more knowledge
Peace

MrPoirot said...

Rostau was ruled out as a suspect in the TLB case because he was not involved. Silence him from saying what?

Jersydevil said...

Never said or believed he was involved in the murders just saying he may of had alot more information then he gave once again IDK much about him if you Google him the only info directs you to this very Blog and Yes Schrecks book probably contains misinformation but then again so DOS Helter Skelter

Jersydevil said...

If any of us believed the motive was Helter Skelter coming down fast we wouldn't be here.
Just like the Bugs other book his theory Oswald acted alone

MrPoirot said...

HS was definantly one of the motives.Don't isolate any of the at least 5 to 10 motives.

1 copycat
2 HS
3 no music contract
4 cop harrassment/arrests
5 Charlie thinks he killed Lotsapoppa
...
...

MrPoirot said...

I could not listen to he Arias day 17 sex tape. I personally think sexchat is like hearing fingernails on a blackboard while having water dripping on your head in the middle of an ant mound during the Racheal maddow show when its 110 degrees. I pity that jury today. Arias may be wearing out this jury.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P I listened to that sex tape and it makes Jodi look even more guilty. I can't believe the defense is having that played. She's definitely the one who keeps talking dirty and trying to initiate something. For the most part, he's yawning and singing songs.

Brian Davis said...

Mr. P wrote, "There was no direct link between Rostau and Jay. Schreck is wrong. Rostau said he did not know Jay personally. Schreck simply manufactured a personal relationship between Rostau and Jay."

Mr. P, Hello !

The direct link is Charlene McCaffery, Jay's secretary/Rostaus lover. McCaffery is on record in the police report linking the two together. What reason would she have to lie.

On the other hand, of course Rostau would deny knowing Sebring.

Why do you think Rostau is telling the truth but McCaffery is lying ?

It makes much more sense that McCaffery is telling the truth in the police report and Rostau lying about Sebring, if that is in fact true.

I have never seen the report of Rostau denying he knew Sebring but I do have the report of McCaffery talking about Sebring and Rostau.

Thanks

Jersydevil said...

Brian what's the scoop on Rastaus murder do you believe he was killed because of what he knew or do you believe it was related to his drug dealing
Also wasn't another associate of Sebrings murdered around same time ?
Thanks

Brian Davis said...

Katie, Hello !

"In other words, why would they continue to lie about such a simple thing? Does it make you more or less guilty of killing someone if you knew them or not?"

I can't answer for fact why they would lie about them knowing the victims but, for example, I am 100% convinced Tex knew Frykowski and Jay Sebring.

I don't know why anyone thinks the victims didn't know the killers.

And why would anyone believe Susan Atkins ? How do you know which is the truth with her ? I sure can't tell.

Susan's original story had her actually killing Sharon Tate but now we are to believe it was Tex because they both changed their stories to Tex actually being the one. Oh, then that must the truth.

Katie, do you know how close Weber's house was to Jay Sebring's house ?

If Mr. Weber doesnt come out that night on them maybe they go onto Sebrings house and get what Steve McQeen went and got ? No, I don't know exactly what that was or how much but it was enough to make Mr. McQueen supposedly beeline to Sebring's upon hearing of the murders. Right ?

Brian Davis said...

JerseyDevil, Hello !

"Brian what's the scoop on Rastaus murder do you believe he was killed because of what he knew or do you believe it was related to his drug dealing"

The story as I understand is he was found murdered in the trunk of a car at the JFK airport parking lot with a bullet to the head.

I think he was silenced for what he knew which was also drug related so imo, they are hand in hand.

"Also wasn't another associate of Sebrings murdered around same time ? Thanks"

Yes, I don't recall the name but supposedly he was found dead in Florida.

Brian Davis said...

Mr. P wrote, "Rostau said he did not know Jay personally. Schreck simply manufactured a personal relationship between Rostau and Jay."

Mr. P, upon further review and please know with all due respect, as I like and think highly of you so I am not meaning to stir anything here but it is you who appears to be wrong not Mr. Schreck.

I submit this excerpt from the 2nd Tate police report as my argument:

On 9-16-69, investigators Bachhelder and Lee interviewed Rostau at which time he stated he had only met Jay Sebring once or twice, but he was on friendly terms with Frykowski. 

Albeit, he doesnt admit to the depth of their relationship but Rostau certainly admits, not deny, knowing Rostau.

That is not a fabrication by Mr. Schreck.

Brian Davis said...

Correction: "but Rostau certainly admits, not deny, knowing Sebring."

starship said...

and whatever became of Charlene McCaffree?

jeffrey jeff said...

On one of the other Manson blogs, they are corresponding with a fellow that claims to have hung out at Spahn in the summer of '69. He claims he went there with his brother who was a biker. So far, the guy seems credible to me. At least he doesn't seem White Rabbit crazy. Anyway, he say's that the bikers did most of their illegal business (drugs/guns) with Tex: "tex held the money. because we delivered stuff a number of times and looked for him. he paid,, and even when a guy offered him something spur of the moment,, it was tex who decided yes or no,, tex pulled out nearly $100 and bought it. i am positive that he did not take time to go ask anyone else. and that was alot of dough back then!i doubt he had that much personal cash that he carried around".
This statement kinda backs up the theory that Tex may have been working his deals/agenda independent of Charly. Personally, I find the drug burn/robbery theory more credible than race war, failed rock star revenge, etc. I do believe that copycat may have been a component. I also believe that Cielo was a Tex mission with Charly's knowledge/approval. I don't know what to think about LaBianca. I do not think the LaBianca's were involved with drugs. That may be where the copycat component fits in.
My apologies if I've violated some sort of blog etiquette by referring to another blog. I know that there are often feuds between competing TLB blogs and their members. I like to read most of them, but can't keep up with who is feuding with who.

Jersydevil said...

Nice Brian Davis thanks I also always thought Tex knew both Sebring and Frykowski Sebring possibly from the wig business or through Frykowski ,Frykowski obviously through drug transactions
Ok this is just a random question thrown out to anyone DOS anyone else believe it's possible that MANSON or Tex could have possibly even meant Sharon through Dennis Wilson I've never read this or heard it mentioned just seems very possible MANSON was definitely loosely tied to many celebs especially in the music industry

matt prokes said...

jeffrey jeff said...At least he doesn't seem White Rabbit crazy

Thats a level not many can reach.

MrPoirot said...

Hi Brian. Yes Rostau told Bug he knew Frykowski as a friend but only knew of Jay.

There you have a measurement of Rostau's familiarity with the two victims.

Frykowski he knows well.They are buddies.
Sebring he knows of but not friends with. Rostau has now made a comparison in order to show the different degrees of familiarity he had with Sebring and Rostau. He knows Frykowski much better than Jay. His knowledge about Jay is weak.

Mccaffrey saying Rostau knew Jay is not as reliable as Rostau saying in person to Bug that he was not friends with Jay. Rostau has only a few "hi, how are you" run-ins with Jay.

Mccaffrey and Rostau had zero connection with the murders being committed.

Shreck falsely magnifies the degree of familiarity Rostau had with Jay. Schreck has Rostau selling drugs directly to Jay. Schreck says there is a busy relationship. So busy in fact that their relationship soured.

Brian Davis said...

Hi Mr. P ! We will probably continue to disagree on that but that's ok. Fair enough. Thank you for the reply !

bobby said...

"tex held the money. because we delivered stuff a number of times and looked for him. he paid,, and even when a guy offered him something spur of the moment,, it was tex who decided yes or no,, tex pulled out nearly $100 and bought it. i am positive that he did not take time to go ask anyone else. and that was alot of dough back then!i doubt he had that much personal cash that he carried around".
This statement kinda backs up the theory that Tex may have been working his deals/agenda independent of Charly

Jeff, I see it differently. The God father sends a captain to do these deals not himself.

katie8753 said...

Hi Brian! Sorry to be so late in getting back. I've been really busy today! :)

>>>Brian said: I can't answer for fact why they would lie about them knowing the victims but, for example, I am 100% convinced Tex knew Frykowski and Jay Sebring.>>>

Why would Tex know Frykowski & Sebring? Is there any evidence of that? I haven't seen any.

>>>Katie, do you know how close Weber's house was to Jay Sebring's house ?>>>

Yes I do.

>>>If Mr. Weber doesnt come out that night on them maybe they go onto Sebrings house and get what Steve McQeen went and got? No, I don't know exactly what that was or how much but it was enough to make Mr. McQueen supposedly beeline to Sebring's upon hearing of the murders. Right?>>>

Supposedly Steve McQueen went to Jay's house to "flush the drugs", I'm assuming to protect his innocence. He might have been going there to get rid of evidence of another nature. We know that Jay took drugs...there's no evidence that he sold drugs.

>>>On 9-16-69, investigators Bachhelder and Lee interviewed Rostau at which time he stated he had only met Jay Sebring once or twice, but he was on friendly terms with Frykowski.>>>

That's true Brian, but read on:

Rostau denied being at the Cielo address prior to the homicide. Investigation is continuing on this subject.

How can Rostau have delivered drugs to Cielo Drive on August 8th if he claims he wasn't there prior to the murders? It's McCaffrey's word against his.

louis365 said...

Manson "killing" Lotsapoppa was a definite turning point of some kind...

katie8753 said...

Hi Jeffrey. Thanks for your input.

I think, as Leigh has pointed out and I have pointed out many times prior, the proof is in the pudding about who was in charge of the girls. They held vigil for Charlie's trial on the sidewalk. Crawling, speaking out, issuing threats, carving their foreheads, shaving their heads.

Were they there for Bobby's trial? No. Were they there for Tex's trial? No.

The proof's in the pudding about who was in charge of the girls.

The guys are a different story. I don't think Charlie had the hold on them that he had on the girls. But he definitely had a hold on the girls.

Hi Jersy. Tex sold wigs....Sebring didn't...Rosemary didn't. :)

katie8753 said...

>>>Louis said: Manson "killing" Lotsapoppa was a definite turning point of some kind...>>>

That's right Louis. When Charlie thought he had killed Lottsapoppa, he was afraid of the Black Panthers killing them all and was trying to get to the desert. Gypsy has said in interviews that Charlie needed money because his Helter Skelter crap wasn't coming true and people were murmuring about how maybe he wasn't right on that and the hordes were becoming disenchanted. Charlie was losing control.

That's how Hinman happened. I think Charlie wanted money from Cielo & LaBianca too, but he didn't get any because they didn't have stacks of money sitting around the house.

He should have just knocked over a bank. LOL.

Brian Davis said...

Hi Katie ! No apology needed.

"Why would Tex know Frykowski & Sebring? Is there any evidence of that? I haven't seen any."

Tex-Rostau-Frykowski-Sebring

Katie, do you know how close Weber's house was to Jay Sebring's house ?

Katie: Yes I do.

Supposedly Steve McQueen went to Jay's house to "flush the drugs", I'm assuming to protect his innocence.


Is it far-fetched or connecting dots (or neither ? lol)that Tex could've been heading to Sebrings after Tate to get whatever McQueen was going after, but stopped at Webers first ?



That's true Brian, but read on:

Rostau denied being at the Cielo address prior to the homicide. Investigation is continuing on this subject.

How can Rostau have delivered drugs to Cielo Drive on August 8th if he claims he wasn't there prior to the murders? It's McCaffrey's word against his.


Because he's lying there ? Some liars tell part truth, part lie. Such as Susan Atkins.

Of course Rostau would lie about being at Cielo.

The FACT remains, Rostau DID KNOW, HAD ACTUALLY MET, Jay Sebring. Rostau admits that. Maybe he downplayed it and maybe he didn't.

And he knew Frykowski even better.

But let's look at that for a moment.

The fact that Joel Rostau admits to even personally knowing both Sebring and Frykowski and especially Fry, is imo, huge.

Now add Tex Watson.

Tex knew Rostau.

It is hard for me NOT to think since Rostau knew Sebring and Fry that Tex also knew Sebring and Fry if thru no other way, Rostau.

Also, imo, I don't see why McCaffery would lie but I do see why Rostau would.

katie8753 said...

Brian I love ya. You're my "soulmate".

But I can't condone this stuff about Rostau.

I said: "Why would Tex know Frykowski & Sebring? Is there any evidence of that? I haven't seen any."

You said: Tex-Rostau-Frykowski-Sebring.

That doesn't answer anything. That doesn't make any sense to me.

He's a liar, she's a liar, they're all liars, it gets monotonous.

He said, she said, they said....

What I rely on is the facts. And the fact remains that Sebring wasn't a drug dealer...nor was Frykowski.

It was never proven. You can talk about Rostau (who was a bit player selling drugs to different folks) but he's still a bit player. He was droppin' dimes.

Come on now man...let's talk facts, not fantasies....

katie8753 said...

Okay here's a liger. Napolen Dynamite pointed it out.

A cross between a lion and tiger.

http://dottech.org/87664/male-lion-female-tiger-one-huge-cat-aka-liger-amazing-photo-of-the-day/

This has been the longest day of my life.

katie8753 said...

HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY EVERYONE!! :)

Leigh said...

Katie: "What I rely on is the facts. And the fact remains that Sebring wasn't a drug dealer...nor was Frykowski."

I'm on board with this. The evidence just isn't there for me. I'm open to any and all possibilities and theories, but they have to have a clear foundational basis. And things published in books without clear attribution and not accompanied by a transparent statement of the author's methodology just don't fly with me. Sources sometimes want to remain anonymous and when that happens we must then rely on our perceptions of the author, journalist or researcher's professional credibility and integrity, bearing in mind agendas, biases and anything else questionable. That's a subjective thing and admittedly my bar is high. Schreck, though his writings have some grains of interest, just doesn't meet it. So in that respect - to each their own.

McQueen flushing a friend's stash to protect his reputation does not strike me as unusual. Lots of people would seek to protect a friend or loved one's reputation in similar circumstances. Evidence exists that Jay was into some offbeat sexual practices. Nothing greatly unusual, but offbeat to some. Evidence exists that he consumed drugs. These are things a friend may want to keep from public view about another friend, if that friend was already well-known and had a professional reputation and surviving business empire to protect, and was murdered in sensational circumstances. Was evidence potentially destroyed? Sure. But nothing has yet convinced me that that evidence would have substantiated Jay being a drug dealer. Consumer, yes. Voracious consumer (addict)? Possibly. Maybe, maybe not. But not dealer.

Among TLB researchers there have always been those who are more willing to be swayed that Hinman, Sebring, Frykowski and the LaBiancas were into bad stuff, and those who are more skeptical. I'll remain in the skeptics' camp until further notice, but it's an interesting conversation nonetheless.

Brian Davis said...

To Katie and Leigh, the evidence is Charlene McCaffery.

I choose to believe that. You don't. No problem.


CarolMR said...



HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY EVERYONE!! :)


Thanks, Katie - same to you!

starship said...

The more I think on this, the more I think that Rostau might very well be key. Rostau ended up not a victim of the Manson Family but the Luchesse Family just a few months later, at JFK no less. So bit player in the drug industry doesn't fly. he was big enough to be killed.

Brian, a Tex to Rostau connection would indeed complete the Frykowski to Sebring connection. That's what has to be proven...that Tex and Rostau knew each other.

Katie, you say Frykowski was not a drug dealer. But the eveidence is that he wanted to be...dealing with the Canadians to become the largest supplier of MDA to Southern California. He was murdered before this deal could be completed and his career begun. Now, I have asked this before, the market was there so in the absence of Frykowski, who then became the de facto MDA supplier to Southern California? Whomever he was would have been the primary benificiary of Frykowski's demise, no? I am wondering of late if it may have been Eddie Nash. Google him and see what comes up.

Now, even if we can prove that Tex knew Rostau, all we would have regarding his being involved at Tate is only circumstantial. But circumstances can be very telling, no? All the evidence we have against Joe Paterno's participation in a coverup at Penn State is only circumstantial, nevertheless it remains pretty convincing.

Leigh said...

Starship: " So bit player in the drug industry doesn't fly. he was big enough to be killed."

I'll admit that the information I have on Rostau is only what I've gleaned from the homicide reports and other documentation available in the TLB blogosphere. So as far as I know, the sky is the limit in terms of things he could have been involved with during his time on this planet.

That said, you don't have to be a big deal in the drug world to be considered deserving of death. You can be a complete nobody and somebody might see fit to kill you because of an error in judgment they think you made, either in personal terms or in the course of business, or for some other perceived transgression. Maybe someone just doesn't trust you, and they have little to go on but they think it's prudent to act anyway. Look at the drug wars going on in Mexico (and elsewhere) right now, or senseless killings that take place every day in the streets of the inner city. People are dispensed with up and down the hierarchy as others see fit. There is always some kind of reason or pretense and often it's not rare for it to be a flimsy one. Organised crime groups have their own rules but the basic reality of their situations are largely the same. Life is cheap. The possibilities in terms of what Rostau did to find himself in that trunk are endless.

Jersydevil said...

Wow Starship mentioned Eddie Nash had,never thought to connect him but interesting Tex once lived on Wonderland Ave. same place as the infamous John Homes involved killings Wonderland with Val Kilmer dam good movie

katie8753 said...

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong (and I very well could be wrong since I haven't read Schreck's book) but didn't he say that Rostau made a delivery of drugs to Cielo Drive and Jay and Voytek wanted more drugs but he couldn't get more because his supplier was out of town? If that's the case, doesn't that just make Rostau a delivery boy?

And why would Charlene rat her boyfriend out and tell the cops he was at Cielo Drive? Was she afraid that Rostau might be involved in the murders??

MrPoirot said...

Schreck does stumble on to some new areas of interest in TLB but he gets the storys backwards sometimes.

Rostau's name comes up while cops cut an interview path starting at Sebring's secretary which leads them to Rostau who voluntarily drives down to the courthouse to be interviewed by Bugliosi possibly more than once. By doing so Rostau signs his own death warrant. Here is an underground dealer giving away his underground status yet he continues selling drugs. Well why not? Rostau hasn't a clue who killed everyone at Cielo. He thinks he has nothing to fear so he becomes Mr Average Joe Citizen and stupidly talks with Bugliosi. Now Rostau has lost his underground status. Every drug dealer West of East now knows Rostau is hot property. Any dealer who deals quantity to Rostau will also become hot property. Rostau must go before he unwittingly reveals all his connections. Rostau was quickly murdered in a hit at JFK airport in order to prevent him from exposing an entire channel of top level drug suppiers.

Jersydevil said...

Sorry Mr P.m. but I just don't consider Bugilosi a totally reliable source I'm not anti Bugilosi or Helter Skelter but if Vince went deeper into his investigation very likely the Helter Skelter motive wouldn't hold up I'm not claiming Shreck Fiquered it out either but he did spend 20 + yrs investigating the case

Jersydevil said...

Lynyrd were you been bud hope alls well I seen the pic of Bobby B as a little,boy looking like a boyscout nice find
Hey I have some pics never seen posted can I get your email to send em ?

jeffrey jeff said...

The LAPD initially investigated the Cielo murders as drug related. The first suspects (Harrigan, Doyle, Rostau, Dawson, etc) were suspected or known drug dealers. The LAPD were actively pursuing the drug angle until Atkins blabbed to Ronnie Howard. Ronnie Howard was not the first inmate that Atkins told her story to. That was Nancy Jordan, a young woman that knew Atkins from hanging out at Spahn. Jordan was also incarcerated at Sybil Brand on drug charges. The story that Atkins tells Jordan is quite different from the one she tells Howard. From Hedrickson's "Death To Pigs":
"When Atkins first tells Nancy Jordan about the Tate massacre she doesn't even implicate Manson. No race war, no Helter Skelter, and no Battle of Armageddon. One would think that the word Helter Skelter would at least be mentioned if that was a motive related to the Tate murders."
Jordan told Atkins to keep her mouth shut about the murders unless she wanted to end up in the gas chamber. Atkins later sent Jordan a message asking her "to not say anything, that she was going to change her story".

There might not be any fire but there is a hell of a lotta smoke.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Jersey,

My email is listed in the sidebar.
(About halfway down)

Jersydevil said...

Your the best Katie thanks where's he been having issues because of weather

katie8753 said...

You're welcome Jersy. Lynyrd's fine. He's just been busy. :)

sunset77 said...

I've noticed several references in this thread to a "Charlene McCaffery".

The second Tate Homicide Investigation Report mentions a "Karlene Ann McCaffrey"

"On 9-8-69, investigators received information from Karlene Ann McCaffrey, receptionist for Sebring, Inc., that Joel J. Rostau, residing at 840 North Larabee Street, apartment 119, had delivered narcotics to the Tate residence on the night of the homicide."

Apparently, 8 days later:

"On 9-16-69, investigators Bachhelder and Lee interviewed Rostau at which time he stated he had only met Jay Sebring once or twice, but he was on friendly terms with Frykowski. Rostau denied being at the Cielo address prior to the homicide. Investigation is continuing on this subject."

It appears to me that one of them was either lying, or incorrect.

starship said...

Is there more to the first statement?
Didn't Rostau admit he delivered, couldn't secure more so hats why he didn't return?

katie8753 said...

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/asteroid-2012-da14-make-closest-approach-earth-friday/story?id=18496083

katie8753 said...

Why is Rostau suddenly so important in this case? If he hadn't been dating Jay's receptionist, we most likely would never have heard of him.

There's no proof Jay was dealing drugs. Voytek was supposedly looking into dealing MDA through the Canadians. That I can believe. He was a shiftless loser living off Abigail and she was at the point of dropping him like a bag of dirt. The only option Voytek had was to get a "real job" or deal drugs. Otherwise he was gonna have to move back in with Mama.

If you want to prove that the hit on Cielo Drive was motivated by Tex being upset by Voytek dealing MDA, you have to connect Tex to the Canadians, not Rostau.

katie8753 said...

I'm sorry, but every time I see the name Rostau, I think of MST3K Rosdower.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6OPyfQxwDM

HA HA HA.

Brian Davis said...

"Katie: There's no proof Jay was dealing drugs. Voytek was supposedly looking into dealing MDA through the Canadians. That I can believe."

Katie, you can believe Voy would be a drug dealer based on circumstancial but not Sebring ?

If Voytek was a drug dealer, is it really a stretch to consider Sebring was dealing as well, possibly in partnership with Voy, considering how close Sebring and Voytek were ?

Starship: Brian, a Tex to Rostau connection would indeed complete the Frykowski to Sebring connection. That's what has to be proven...that Tex and Rostau knew each other...

...Now, even if we can prove that Tex knew Rostau, all we would have regarding his being involved at Tate is only circumstantial."


Hi Starship, great comments and one possible connection of Tex-Rostau could be another police report supposedly out there in which McCaffery describes a break-in/robbery by two masked men and one slipped and called his partner "Charles".

I have not seen that report myself but Schreck said he has it.

I plan to ask Shcreck if he would forward me a copy or at least let me view it during our next conversation but if anyone else might know where to get it please let the TLB community know.

But if that police report is true, that would at least connect tex-Rostau and was that Bruce Davis and Tex doing the break-in ?

Sunset77: I've noticed several references in this thread to a Charlene McCaffery. The second Tate Homicide Investigation Report mentions a "Karlene Ann McCaffrey"

...It appears to me that one of them was either lying, or incorrect.


Hi Sunset ! Yes, I've seen her name spelled both ways in dfferent references but I agree with your post and imo, it would be Rostau unless there is a good reason for McCaffery to lie ?

Brian Davis said...

Katie: If you want to prove that the hit on Cielo Drive was motivated by Tex being upset by Voytek dealing MDA, you have to connect Tex to the Canadians, not Rostau.

Imo, Tex certainly knew the Canadians too.

Perhaps the rope and nooses and "do something witchy" meant to frame the Canadians ?

katie8753 said...

Hi Brian! Good to see you. Good points. Leads to lots of preponderance.

Will converse manana. It's bedtime for Bonzo. LOL.

Night! :)

katie8753 said...

BTW, Rowsdower is Canadian too. LOL.

Night! :)

katie8753 said...

One more thing, speaking of Canada and their new fantastic drug ring in 1969, check out this MST3K fling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RHVoFpncgA

HA HA HA.

MrPoirot said...

Whatever happened to Mccaffrey? Did she remain employed at Sebring? She did sing a loud tune to the cops by repeating every rumor her ears picked up. She sang like she had drug arrest run-ins. Why did she sing so loudly? Too many parking tickets?

Is there a pic in existance of Rostau?

It isn't known if Frykowski was dealing MDA. It's one of the more accepted "facts" of TLB but it was said that Frykowski "was going to be" a MDA dealer but was he murdered before he ever ever advanced past the stage of a MDA user.
Did Sharon really let Gibby bring her drug dealer boyfriend into her Cielo home? Leslie Carone said Sharon was not very particular whom she let into her home.
Roman fely it was a mistake not to run off Frykowski. Did Roman say that because Frykowski ran over Saperstein? Heck, I'm surprised Roman didn't run off Gibby. That chick liked drugs too much.

katie8753 said...

Brian said: If Voytek was a drug dealer, is it really a stretch to consider Sebring was dealing as well, possibly in partnership with Voy, considering how close Sebring and Voytek were ?

I can believe Voytek was looking into drug dealing because he didn't have a job or any income. He was going to have to support himself somehow when Abigail dumped him and didn't seem to be the kind of guy who would submit to working a 9 to 5 job.

I don't think Sebring & Voytek were close at all.

one possible connection of Tex-Rostau could be another police report supposedly out there in which McCaffery describes a break-in/robbery by two masked men and one slipped and called his partner "Charles".

I've heard of this but I can't remember where. But didn't they always refer to him as "Tex"? Why call him "Charles".

Imo, Tex certainly knew the Canadians too.

Perhaps the rope and nooses and "do something witchy" meant to frame the Canadians ?


I don't know if Tex knew the Canadians or not. I don't think Tex was selling MDA...was he?

How does "ropes and do something witchy" frame the Canadians???

Mr. P said: Roman fely it was a mistake not to run off Frykowski. Did Roman say that because Frykowski ran over Saperstein? Heck, I'm surprised Roman didn't run off Gibby. That chick liked drugs too much.

Sharon had told Roman she wanted both Voytek & Gibby out. They were making her nervous with all the drug taking & fighting. They were pretty much moved back to the Woodstock house when they were killed.

katie8753 said...

Somewhere there's an interview with Doris who said that Sharon told her a couple of weeks before the murders that Voytek & Abigail were making her nervous and she wanted them gone. I don't remember why, but I think it had to do with drugs and unsavory people who were hanging out at her house. I think it was more Voytek than Abigail.

I also think the only reason Jay even knew Voytek or Abigail was because of Sharon. I think that Abigail had given Jay some money for his new business venture in SF but I haven't read anywhere that Jay was good friends with Voytek. In fact I think the reason he was spending so much time with Sharon towards the end was because of her nervousness about her housemates.

Unless I'm missing something here....

Doc Sierra said...

leary7 said...

Most of us bloggers hate Tex not just because of his vile actions but also because of his sanctimonious (not real) conversion to Jesus freak.
----------------------------------
Hi Leary. I'm no Tex Watson fan but I was wondering how we could know for sure that his religious conversion is not sincere?

katie8753 said...

Leary, where are you. On 6th Street in Austin??? LOL.

Doc, I can't imagine that Tex is being honest about his "conversion". It's reminiscent of when George Costanza converted to the Latvian Orthodox church to get a girl, and he told them he liked their hats.

And Kramer found out he was "the Kovarka". LOL.

I think that Tex and his wife were scamming the "Non Profit" status of their "church". She later left him for another man.

So much for honesty.....

louis365 said...

Most all of long term prisoners get "converted". If nothing else, it's a reason that gets them out of their cell. Funny, I've never heard of Manson getting converted :) LOL

katie8753 said...

Hi Louis!

Yeah at least Manson never tried that phony way out. Gotta give him that. :)

louis365 said...

Hi Katie!

I can't believe we just gave Manson "good" credit for something ;)

katie8753 said...

Yeah, there's no a whole lotta nice things I can say about Manson, but at least he's not a phony. And I have to say, he can be pretty funny at times. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Oops, "there's NOT a whole lotta nice things I can say" LOL.

MrPoirot said...

Charlie has always struck me as being religious. He constantly mentions God being the one who created everything. i've never heard manson say anything that led me to believe he was an atheist.

MrPoirot said...

Charliie never struck me as being a scientologist. I'm certain he studied scientology as a means to become a more successful pimp by using scientology to have more control over his hookers. Charlie is most likely a protestant christian judging by his vocabulary. Charlie could never be a bornagain christian because i think he is angry ar God.(woe is me)

louis365 said...

Ummm...I do believe that it was the RC version of the Bible that Manson used to quote from. I forget the references right now, but there are things/terms he used that are only found in the RC version. Besides, just ask any of the women, and, most, if not all the guys, if he is RC or not. LOL

CarolMR said...

Louis, that was mentioned in the first "Helter Skelter" TV movie - Charlie's Bible was definitely a Catholic one.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Carol. I wasn't sure what "RC" meant. I thought it was a cola. LOL.

I never thought about Charlie being religious. I think his religiosity was a mish-mash of different things he encountered in reform school/jail/prison.

I think his grandparents were devout Baptists (Beauders correct me if I'm wrong). He might have gotten the fundamentals from them.

But didn't he think he was Jesus Christ? I know he held his arms up in the courtroom like he was being crucified.

CarolMR said...

Hi, Katie. Yes, I think his beliefs were a mish-mash of different religions. I don't think his family was Catholic, but he was in a Catholic boarding school (Boys' Town?) for a while.

MrPoirot said...

Yea, Charlie was at Boys Town alright: for four days before he escaped! He's a quick study no doubt.
The RC bible has several exremely recent versions as late as 1961 and later. The RC bible has a lot of Yahwahs in it. Some protestants like the RC bible too. I suspect Mary Bruner and Patricia Krenwinkle would have quickly spotted what bible version Charlie was quoting from.
Charlie had little exposure to organized Catholicism.
As far as his religious beliefs being a mish mash of different teachings so are we all but his early religious training was organized protestantism. In Noel Emmon's book on Charlie the author tells of discussions with Charlie about how he felt he had been a lousy pimp in the 1950s and intended on studying up on how to be a better pimp for when he would be paroled again. Thus his use of scientology which he listed in prison documents as his religion also in 1961. Charlie found out that scientology voodoo worked on Hippies too.
Scientology uses not one word from any version of the many bible bibles nor has it a god. Charlie has little or no formal education in Catholicism but Catholics are considered Christians. The main difference being that Catholics pray to the virgin Mary while Protestants pray directly to God. Charlie mentions praying to God so therefore I suspect Charlie is Protestant whether he admits it or not. Note he has had jobs in prison where he was a cleaning custodian in a multidenominational church which denotes religiosity. But basically it is obvious that Charlie believes in God but wonders why God has forsaken him. Charlie trys to beat any system he is currently involved in so he probably struggles mightily with biblical teachings. I'd imagine God knows there is only so much he can do for him.

johnnyseattle said...

"katie8753 said...
Somewhere there's an interview with Doris who said that Sharon told her a couple of weeks before the murders that Voytek & Abigail were making her nervous and she wanted them gone. I don't remember why, but I think it had to do with drugs and unsavory people who were hanging out at her house. I think it was more Voytek than Abigail.

February 16, 2013 at 3:56 PM"

Hi Katie
it was from the Craig Rivera interview -brother of Geraldo- of Doris Tate back when she was working the media hard to keep ALL those killers behind bars (as opposed to Suzane LaBerge who worked hard to get just 'one' of the killers released...wonder why Suzane worked so hard to get Tex 'out' but wouldn't lift a finger for the others if it was soooo heartfelt?) .
The Doris Tate/Craig Rivera interview has been quoted extensively. I 'think' that is also the same interview in which Doris states that she doesn't believe the Helter Skelter theory.
Hope that helps.

johnnyseattle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

Thanks Mr. P.

Studying to be a better pimp. Now that's a goal worth striving for. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Johnny! Is that interview still available on You Tube? I can't find it anymore.

>>>as opposed to Suzane LaBerge who worked hard to get just 'one' of the killers released...wonder why Suzane worked so hard to get Tex 'out' but wouldn't lift a finger for the others if it was soooo heartfelt?)>>>

Yeah, Suzanne claims she had to "forgive" Tex and get him out. I guess she didn't have to "forgive" Pat or Leslie. LOL.

CarolMR said...

I'll never understand why Voytek and Abigail didn't leave Cielo when Sharon came back from Europe. They were house-sitting for Roman, right? Why didn't they go back to their own home when Sharon arrived back at Cielo? In fact, why did Cielo need someone there to house-sit?

CarolMR said...

MrPoirot, thank you for your detailed explanation of Charlie's Bible and his religious background. But I have to disagree about one thing: Catholics pray sometimes to the Virgin Mary, not all the time. I would say most of the time Catholics pray to God.

katie8753 said...

Carol that's a good question. Why did Cielo even need a house sitter? There was a full time caretaker (yeah, I know...LOL), full time gardeners, full time maid. What duties were Abigail & Voytek supposed to perform? As far as we know, all they did was crash there and have strange parties.

I'm convinced that Sharon told Roman to get them out of the house when she returned from Europe. Why he was waiting until he got home I'm not sure, except that maybe he was afraid to hurt Voytek's feelings, since he felt he "owed him something" because Voytek's Dad got him started in film making.

leary7 said...

Katie...I was never a 6th street fan. Too touristry. I like the backwater pubs myself.

Doc, I should have phrased that differently. It is just my opinion that Tex is a Christian fraud. I have always felt that the true mark of a Christian was subserviance to God. Tex has always shown far far to much self-regard and self-concern for me to buy his conversion act.
Funny, both Christ and Manson preached "dying to ones self". I personally believe Tex failed both teachers. He's just an adept con man who truly believes half the lies he tells.

CarolMR said...

Katie, good points about Cielo having a caretaker, gardener, maid, etc. It also had an owner - Rudy Altobelli, who could have easily checked on his property while the Polanskis were away. There was just no reason for Voytek and Gibby to be there and they had their own home.

Doc Sierra said...

leary7 said...

Katie...I was never a 6th street fan. Too touristry. I like the backwater pubs myself.

Doc, I should have phrased that differently. It is just my opinion that Tex is a Christian fraud.
-----------------------------
Hi Leary. I always enjoy your posts. Like I said earlier, I'm no Tex fan but I think that is the only one who can know for sure whether or not his conversion is sincere. Then again, maybe even he doesn't know. I may be wrong but what I think I see is that some people hate the guy so much they don't want to believe that he's sincere. I tend to do that sometimes too buy I try not be neutral so I can just judge the facts, but, it doesn't always work for me........

bobby said...

Yeah, Suzanne claims she had to "forgive" Tex and get him out. I guess she didn't have to "forgive" Pat or Leslie. LOL.

Makes me wonder, was she just another nut who falls in love with murders ? did she know him and set up the murder ? Did she have a born again experience and relate to him sincerly ? why only that one time that i know of ? why is she not still trying to get him out etc ? I got so many freakin problems oing on i dint know why i wonder about crap like that. lol

L.S. I hope all is well with you Bro.

Katie, hoe do say it ? ****smooch***

love you both , Bobby

Doc Sierra said...

leary7 said...

Katie...I was never a 6th street fan. Too touristry. I like the backwater pubs myself.
-----------------------------
6th in which city?

bobby said...

Why dont i proof read before i publish, I swear i aint as ill literate as i apear to be, or am i ?

Oh, what does the RC bible mean ?

Mr. P hail Mary is only one prayer. As pointed out by Carol. I know because I have been told to sya two hail Mary's and three our fathers.

katie8753 said...

Doc, we're talking about 6th Street in Austin, Texas. I haven't been there in years but I'm guessing it's still a hotspot for young people. Leary would know a lot more about it than I do. Or King Chris. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Bobby!! Smoooooccchhhh back to ya Darlin'! :)

Yeah it's strange that Suzanne made one effort to get Tex out and then dropped it. I don't buy her story about being "born again" and feeling the need to forgive him, and ONLY him. You can forgive someone without trying to get them out of prison.

I love it when Doris told her off. HA HA.

Doc Sierra said...

katie8753 said...

Doc, we're talking about 6th Street in Austin, Texas.
-------------------------------
Thanks Katie,
Man I'd love to go to Austin and spend a month checking out the live music. I'm thinking about Lyle Lovett, John Hiatt, Robert Earl Keen, etc.... Maybe Widespread Panic can come play just for me while I'm there..... Just dreaming......

Venus said...

Regarding the Cielo housesitting topic, I don't get it either. WHEN did Folger and Frykowski get "their" house on Woodstock Rd? Supposedly, they were going to move into it as soon as Roman returned. Why wait? Sharon didn't need a babysitter. She had Jay, friends, family,....OR, did Roman want them around to spy on her? Hmmmmmm????? Frykowski probably would've felt that he owed that to Roman. On Fri, he crashed her dinner with her friends. She was confiding things to them and he showed up and that ended that. She wanted them gone, Roman didn't. She should've told him, "ok, fine, I'll go stay with Jay or my parents or friends until they leave."

CarolMR said...

Venus, I never thought of that - that Roman may have wanted Voytek around to spy on Sharon. Like she needed spying on! Sharon should have had someone spy on Roman! I really don't know when Voytek and Abigail bought their home. I thought they had lived in it before they began the Cielo house-sitting.

MrPoirot said...

Voytek was probably buzzed pretty good when he crashed Sharon's lunch.
Gibby and Voy were just keeping her company.
Sharon was stuck up on top of that mountaintop with a bunch of effed up junkies. I'm really surprised she didn't read everyone the riot act.

katie8753 said...

Carol I think they were just renting the house on Woodstock. I believe they moved there in August of 1968 when they moved to CA from NY. I think that Voytek's artist friend Witold was renting the Woodstock house while Voytek & Gibby were at Cielo Drive.

I feel certain that Abigail was still paying the monthly rent on the Woodstock house whether she lived there or not.

katie8753 said...

Doc, Austin is a fantastic place to go and hear whatever music you want to hear. Some of it's free. It's just a matter of being able to squeeze in. LOL.

bobby said...

never been to Austin, but I have been to Dallas alley I think it's called. A street of bars. Good time.

also checked out the JFK area while there.

Venus said...

If they had the house on Woodstock (is anyone else picturing a little yellow bird flying over a doghouse?) since 1968, WHY did they agree to move to Cielo? I don't get it. Someone else could've moved to the Cielo house. It shouldn't have needed housesitters anyway due to a caretaker and so on.

louis365 said...

Actually, I'm seeing a crow flying over Manson's head...

Doc Sierra said...

louis365 said...

Actually, I'm seeing a crow flying over Manson's head...
------------------------------
And the crows were calling his name, thought Caw......

katie8753 said...

>>>Bobby said: Oh, what does the RC bible mean ?>>>

It means Roman Catholic.

>>>Venus said: If they had the house on Woodstock (is anyone else picturing a little yellow bird flying over a doghouse?) since 1968, WHY did they agree to move to Cielo?>>>

I don't know why they agreed to move to Cielo. I think it was at Roman's request. Why? As you, Carol & I have stated, there was no need for anyone to stay there.

In fact, I don't know why Sharon & Roman didn't just hole up at some hotel while in CA. They rented Cielo Drive in February 1969, and Roman split right after for Europe and Sharon split in March for Europe. They neither one spent a whole lot of time at Cielo Drive.

I don't think that Roman wanted Voytek and Gibby to spy on Sharon. I don't think he cared enough about her to spy on her.

Sorry, but that's what I think. If you really care about someone you don't treat them the way he treated her.

He didn't like it that she got pregnant. He didn't like living in the U.S. He resented that.

Sharon wanted to buy the house that Patty Duke owned on Summit but Roman screwed that up. Probably on purpose. Because he wanted to live abroad.

I can't figure out why Sharon would spend one day with Roman. Some have suggested that she married him to further her career, but I don't view Sharon as a gold-digger.

louis365 said...

It was money Katie...Sharon did think of Roman as an ugly little man...seems appropriate desc. to me.

Venus said...

Katie, I totally agree with you. I don't think the little rat gave a rat's patootie about her either. I was just trying to figure out WHY it was necessary for someone to stay in the house. Yes, she wanted the other house (which was larger and more of a "family" home and that's probably why he didn't wnat it, because SHE wanted it. they could've just stayed elsewhere for a while. Even after the baby was born, it wouldn't have been mobile for awhile. They could've lived anywhere.

katie8753 said...

Venus, I'm glad to see you here! :)

I wanted to ask you a couple of questions. You know more about Jay probably than 99% of the bloggers.

(1) Do you think that Jay knew Tex?

(2) Do you think that Jay was close to Frykowski?

(3) Do you think Jay was dealing drugs?

Venus said...

Katie, e-mail me and we can chat then and I'll answer you (I have a few questions for you too and not enough time right now to do all of this) Ok? ((((hugs)))

CarolMR said...

Voytek crashed Sharon's lunch on that Friday? Do you mean her baby shower lunch with Joanna Pettet and Barbara Lewis? I didn't know he crashed it. What an idiot. I remember after the murders someone asked Roman if he ever thought of asking Voytek to leave Cielo and Roman replied, Not soon enough, aparently. That could mean that if he had thrown out Voytek, Voytek would still be alive; or it could mean that Roman thought Voytek was somehow responsible for the murders.

katie8753 said...

>>>Louis said: It was money Katie...Sharon did think of Roman as an ugly little man...seems appropriate desc. to me.>>>

Hi Louis! I respectfully disagree with you. I really do think that Sharon was smitten with him.

Why? I think it was the foreign accent (women really dig that, LOL), the different free-dealing lifestyle, the "devil may care" attitude, etc.

I don't know if she was as much "in love" with him as much as "in lust" with him.

Young women have a hard time distinguishing between the two. It's the "bad boy syndrome".

I have studied this quite a bit, and I don't think that she latched onto him to further her career.

Let me preface that with this. Roman didn't further her career at all. And being married to Roman didn't further it either. The only thing Roman convinced her of was to drop Ransohoff, or whatever his name was.

I truly believe that after the baby was born, she was going to have a "come to Jesus meeting" with Roman and have it out. I think that she was going to dump him if he didn't stop his philandering.

katie8753 said...

Sorry I posted the same comment twice. LOL

katie8753 said...

Venus you got it! I will e-mail you for your answers! Hugs!!! :)

Carol, Sharon had a luncheon on Friday, August 8th with Joanna and Barbara and Voytek and Abigail crashed it. I don't know if it was on purpose but they did crash it.

According to Ed Sanders and Bugliosi, they were discussing "baby things". I don't know what else they were discussing but the conversation stopped when the 2 arrived.

Sharon may have been discussing leaving Roman (it's a fact that she was thinking it) but maybe not.

I don't think much of Roman at all. In fact I can't stand that pointy-nosed no-lipped body-less, no-legged motherfucker.

But..that's just me... LOL.

Venus said...

Katie, I really hate it when you hide your feelings. Please say what you really thin of Roman, ok? LOL

Frankly, I don't "get" the atteaction, but, I do think it was the bad boy thing. Plus, he made it clear that he wasn't going to fawn all over her and maybe she liked that....for awhile, anyway.

Do I think she would've stayed with him? Nope. If he didn't shape up after the baby was born, I think it would've been bye-bye.

Venus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Venus said...

I deleted my comment as it posted twice for some reason.

louis365 said...

Charlie effect does that...

katie8753 said...

Venus I agree. I think Sharon had reached the end of her rope regarding Roman. He was never going to change and I think she finally realized that. She found out about Roman's screwing around with Michelle Phillips right before her death.

In fact, I think she confided to Doris that she was going to give Roman an ultimatum after the baby was born. Her way or the highway.

I think she was going to take some time off after the baby was born and then resume her acting career, sans Roman.

But she never got the chance.

<<>>

Louis you crack me up! HA HA.

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

Hmmm...I was quoting what Louis said but it didn't show up. Huh???

CarolMR said...

Katie, I agree that Roman did not further Sharon's career. He wanted her for the Mia Farrow role in "Rosemary's Baby," but he couldn't even do that. Maybe had she lived, he would have been more help because his influence would have been greater.
Venus, please share your answers to Katie's questions about Jay!!

Venus said...

Did jay know Tex? I honestly don't know. I guess there's a chance they could've run into each other. Jay didn't use wigs tho, he did toupees so I think it's doubtful that he'd have anything to do with a wig place. If he did use that store, I'm sure he would've sent one of his assistants or else he would've dealt with the owner or manager, not Tex.

2. Was he close to Frykowski? once again, I don't know for a fact, but I'd say no. Jay had his own circle of friends. I think they were just acquaintances and he probably chatted with him when he visited Sharon, but I don't think they hung out together.

3. Did Jay deal drugs? I really doubt it. The guy wasn't stupid. He was running a business that was probably going to explode in the next few years with franchises, hair products and so on. I don't think he would've jeopardized something he'd worked over 10 years to accomplish.

CarolMR said...

Thanks, Venus!

katie8753 said...

Thanks Venus!

>>>Did jay know Tex? I honestly don't know. I guess there's a chance they could've run into each other. Jay didn't use wigs tho, he did toupees so I think it's doubtful that he'd have anything to do with a wig place. If he did use that store, I'm sure he would've sent one of his assistants or else he would've dealt with the owner or manager, not Tex.>>>

Agreed. I don't think Jay did wigs period. He cut hair. I've never seen one instance that he styled a wig for a client.

>>>Was he close to Frykowski? once again, I don't know for a fact, but I'd say no. Jay had his own circle of friends. I think they were just acquaintances and he probably chatted with him when he visited Sharon, but I don't think they hung out together.>>>

Agreed. I think that the only reason Jay had anything to do with Frykowski or Gibby was because they were freeloading on Sharon. Otherwise, I don't think he would have spent two seconds with either of them.

BTW, where's the proof that Jay was spending time with Frykowski before July of 1969 when Sharon got back to the States?

>Did Jay deal drugs? I really doubt it. The guy wasn't stupid. He was running a business that was probably going to explode in the next few years with franchises, hair products and so on. I don't think he would've jeopardized something he'd worked over 10 years to accomplish.>>>

Agreed. Jay didn't have to waste time selling drugs. He was trying to build an empire. Why waste time on nickels and dimes when you're talking $100,000's of dollars.

As opposed to Voytek, Tex or any of the other drug dealing yo-yo's who didn't have a job or a dime to their names.

katie8753 said...

Now if anyone has any proof that Jay had any dealings with Frykowski between March of 1969 when Sharon left for Europe, and July of 1969 when Sharon returned, then I might re-think my position. :)

blipcrotch said...

Steve McQueen's first wife wrote a book. In it, she confirms that Jay was her husband's cocaine connection. Rostau's girlfriend was Jay's secretary. Also in the homicide report, Rostau visited the Polanski house on the night of the murders. Was he there to see Sharon? I doubt it.

I think Jay, rest his soul, was retailing drugs to the Hollywood crowd.

katie8753 said...

Hi Blipcrotch. What was the name of Neile's book?

Doc Sierra said...

blipcrotch said...


I think Jay, rest his soul, was retailing drugs to the Hollywood crowd.
-----------------------------------
Coke was going for $100 a gram back then, today's equivalent of $450. No matter how successful his business was he would most likely have to be selling to support his habit.

MrPoirot said...

blipcrotch said...
Steve McQueen's first wife wrote a book. In it, she confirms that Jay was her husband's cocaine connection. Rostau's girlfriend was Jay's secretary. Also in the homicide report, Rostau visited the Polanski house on the night of the murders. Was he there to see Sharon? I doubt it.

I think Jay, rest his soul, was retailing drugs to the Hollywood crowd.(end quote)



poirot says

That's Neile Adams, Mcqueen's gorgeous 1st wife. They don't come any more cute than her.
I can't buy any story that places Rostau at Cielo the night of the murders. Rostau himself said he was not at Cielo. I'm sure Neile heard that Rostau was at Cielo but she heard wrong.
Sebring ay have endeared himself to many top Hwood stars through the use of his cocaine gathering abilities. Having drugs like Sebring probably had or a harem like Charlie had could open many doors.

Brian Davis said...

Mr Poirot says,
...I can't buy any story that places Rostau at Cielo the night of the murders. Rostau himself said he was not at Cielo. I'm sure Neile heard that Rostau was at Cielo but she heard wrong.


Hi Mr. P ! Good seeing your posts !

Let me ask, wouldn't be in Rostau's best interest to lie about being at Cielo as opposed to McCaffery lying or Neile hearing wrong ? Thanks !


Venus said...

I have Neile McQueen's book, she blames Jay for everything involving Steve's use of cocaine. However, she also comments on Steve using drugs BEFORE he met Jay. So, how easy it was for her to blame a dead guy fot hings her husband was already doing. Maybe Jay did introduce Steve to coaine, maybe not. But, it's unfair to put the blame on Jay who she claims was one of eh husband's best friends.

Venus said...

For someone who supposedly had such a drug "habit," why wasn't any trace of pot or coke found in his system during his autopsy?

katie8753 said...

And don't forget...Jay was Mr. Oceanbring. He can't be that bad. LOL.

blipcrotch said...

From the Second Homicide Report: On 9-8-69, investigators received information from Karlene Ann McCaffrey, receptionist for Sebring, Inc., that Joel J. Rostau, residing at 840 North Larabee Street, apartment 119, had delivered narcotics to the Tate residence on the night of the homicide.  Rostau informed McCaffrey that he had delivered cocaine and mescaline to the house but that Frykowski and Sebring wanted some additional narcotics and that he had gone back down the hill but was unable to locate the other narcotics they requested and therefore he did not return to the Tate residence.  McCaffrey stated that on August 7, 1969, she had talked to Sebring and he had informed her that he had been burnt on $2,000 worth of bad cocaine.  McCaffrey stated that in her opinion Sebring would do almost anything to get back at the person who had burnt him.

McCaffrey was, as I pointed out, Rostau's girlfriend as well as an employee of Jay's.

I wasn't claiming that Steve McQueen was an innocent lamb who was corrupted by Jay Sebring. Nor was I saying that Jay had drugs in his system the night of the murders. I do maintain that Sebring was a business associate of Rostau, and that he made substantial money from the sale of drugs to Hollywood beautiful people, Steve McQueen being just one of them. I'd even go as far as to say that his haircutting business was bankrolled with drug money and further still that his haircutting business was a front for his drug dealing activities. It's called money laundering, it's how drug dealers get the profits from their illegal activities into circulation without attracting attention.

The fact that only small amounts of MJ were found in the house and in Jay's car...well the killers had plenty of time to wipe the place for fingerprints and move bodies all over the place, you think they would leave substantial quantities of drugs behind when they left?

katie8753 said...

>>>The fact that only small amounts of MJ were found in the house and in Jay's car...well the killers had plenty of time to wipe the place for fingerprints and move bodies all over the place, you think they would leave substantial quantities of drugs behind when they left?>>>

Blipcrotch, the killers didn't wipe the place down for prints, nor did they move bodies, nor did they take any drugs.

The print removal and body moving was done after the killers left. And it wasn't done very well...

Nobody removed any drugs. There was MDA in Gibby's room. There were drugs found in Jay's car and also MJ residue in the house. No one tried to eradicate it.

katie8753 said...

Blipcrotch, I hope that didn't sound mean. I've been accused of coming across like that. I don't mean to.

I guess I'm just like a Sgt Friday on Dragnet.

I just want the facts, nothing but the facts.

LOL.

MrPoirot said...

Brian Davis said...
Mr Poirot says,
...I can't buy any story that places Rostau at Cielo the night of the murders. Rostau himself said he was not at Cielo. I'm sure Neile heard that Rostau was at Cielo but she heard wrong.

Hi Mr. P ! Good seeing your posts !

Let me ask, wouldn't be in Rostau's best interest to lie about being at Cielo as opposed to McCaffery lying or Neile hearing wrong ? Thanks !(end quote)

Poirot replies:

Hi Brian.There were quite a few people who were at Cielo that Friday: Garretson, bike delivery guy, trunk delivery guy, Sharon's lunch guests, yard guy etc. None of them saw Rostau. Mccaffrey said Rostau was at Cielo that day but she had never been to Cielo. Only she puts Rostau there that Friday.

Brian is there any evidence that Rostau ever visited Cielo at all? I a suspicious that a dealer would drop drugs off at a home where the buyer didn't live.

I have a question for you Brian. If Mcqueen went to sebring's house and cleaned out the drugs; is there a likelihood these drugs Mcqueen removed were the drugs Rostau delivered?
Even if Rostau delivered drugs to Cielo do you think rostau would have told Mccaffrey what he was up to? Aren't drug dealers generally tight lipped?


Venus said...

I've never heard it said that McQueen cleaned out Jay's house. Supposedly, he had people do it. I have no idea if this is true or who the people were.

MrPoirot said...

It is a strange story isn't it? It has no source. If there were drugs cleaned out of Jay's home it was because they wanted the drugs not because they were tryng to protect Jay's reputation,
How did they know the drugs were there? Heck, maybe it was Rostau himself who put the drugs there and went back and got them upon hearing Jay was killed.
But it is also likely that Rostau was not at all involved with any part of the TLB killings. I am not even sure Rostau and Charlene ccaffrey ever dated. Maybe Mccaffrey got her drugs from Rostau. Maybe Mccaffrey supplied Jay? She sure sang up a storm so it appeared the cops had something on her.

johnnyseattle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
johnnyseattle said...

" MrPoirot said...
It is a strange story isn't it? It has no source. If there were drugs cleaned out of Jay's home it was because they wanted the drugs not because they were tryng to protect Jay's reputation,
How did they know the drugs were there? Heck, maybe it was Rostau himself who put the drugs there and went back and got them upon hearing Jay was killed.
But it is also likely that Rostau was not at all involved with any part of the TLB killings. I am not even sure Rostau and Charlene ccaffrey ever dated. Maybe Mccaffrey got her drugs from Rostau. Maybe Mccaffrey supplied Jay? She sure sang up a storm so it appeared the cops had something on her."


Mr P., they LIVED together. They were at Rostau's apartment in April when they were subject to an aborted drug burn. It is referenced in the Tate Police reports.
You bet Charlene sang, she was scared. And yes, they had the earlier arrest on her. She wasn't a drug dealer like Rosteau, she was a receptionist with a bad choice in men.

Ole J.C. said...

What do you think about (during some of the first evaluations with Tex) that when they asked him if he said, "no" when Manson asked them, "Do you have remorse," Tex responded with, "I don't remember him asking that. I was in a blank state."

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