Tuesday, February 19, 2013

A Few Charlie quotes:

"Do you feel blame?  Are you mad?  Uh, do you feel like wolf kabob roff vantage?  Gefraanis booj pooch boo jujube bear rammage.  Jigiji geeji geeja geeble gooble.  Begep flagaggle vaggle  veditch waggle bagga?"
 
"I'm nobody. I'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo. I'm a boxcar and a jug of wine, and a straight razor if you get too close to me."

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."

"A baby is born into this world in a state of fear. Total paranoia and awareness. He sees the world with eyes not used yet. As he grows up, his parents lay all this stuff on him. They tell him, when they should be letting him tell them. Let the children lead you."
 
"Anything you see in me is in you. If you want to see a vicious killer, that's who you'll see, do you understand that? If you see me as your brother, that's what I'll be. It all depends on how much love you have. I am you, and when you can admit that, you will be free. I am just a mirror."
"These children that come at you with knives--they are your children. You taught them. I didn't teach them. I just tried to help them stand up."

"If you are going to do something, do it well. And leave something witchy."

"I don't wanna take my time going to work, I got a motorcycle and a sleeping bag and ten or fifteen girls. What the hell I wanna go off and go to work for? Work for what? Money? I got all the money in the world. I'm the king, man. I run the underworld, guy. I decide who does what and where they do it at. What am I gonna run around like some teeny bopper somewhere for someone elses money? I make the money man, I roll the nickels. The game is mine. I deal the cards."

"Remorse for h-what? You people have done everything in the world to me. Doesn't that give me equal right?"

"Maybe I should have killed four, five hundred people. Then I would have felt better. Then I would have felt like I really offered society something."

"If I wanted to kill somebody, I'd take this book and beat you to death with it, and I wouldn't feel a thing.  It'd be like walking to the drug store....."
"I've never killed anyone. I don't need to kill anyone. I think it. I have it here. (Points to head)."

"Believe me, if I started murdering people, there'd be none of you left."

76 comments:

katie8753 said...

Hey Lynyrd, chalk me up on the Big Board! I think I'm up to 64 now. LOL.

Charlie Rocks in the funny realm!!! LOL. That guy is funnier than standup.

johnnyseattle said...

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."

Looking around in the news today, you know Charlie might be on to something...

Doc Sierra said...

Skynyrd! Where you been dude?

katie8753 said...

Johnny I think you're right! But are they crazier than Charlie and his stampede at Spahn's?

katie8753 said...

Hi Doc. Skynyrd's still here. He's having some computer problems. He's still here.

jeffrey jeff said...

"If you are going to do something, do it well. And leave something witchy."

Hey, Maybe "Leave something witchy" is just a Charly catchprase....something he said all the time.
Like:
"Have a good day and leave something witchy".
And,
"Go to hell and leave something witchy".
Or,
"Go with Tex and do what he says, and leave something witchy".
Whaddaya think?

katie8753 said...

G'night Jugdish. Remember what we talked about!

Sweet dreams!!! :)

katie8753 said...

Jeffrey, you might be onto something.

My favorite Charlie saying is when he saw Krenwinkle in the Sawyer interview and he said:

She got old on me.

Night ya'll.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Doc.

Everything's cool.
I've just been on a much-needed break.

This March (14th) will mark two full years in operation... and in that time, I haven't taken a single day off (until recently).

As a blogger, I always took 4-6 weeks off (a few times) each year.
After those vacations... I'd return feeling completely renewed.
I'd jump back in, when a topic/discussion really grabbed me.
As an administrator, I haven't had the luxury of those "mini vacations".
It's been non-stop for 24 months straight.

Truth is... I'm totally burned-out.

I'd really like to close the place down completely for 2-3 months, and return completely refreshed with my "creative juices" flowing.
I still may do that.
That would probably be a wise decision.
My readership deserves me, at my best.
I'm in the process of making such decisions.

For the present time, if my authors want to post threads, and folks want to chat in the comments section, that's fine with me.
But for all "intents and purposes"... I've taken myself out of the game.

I have a million responsibilites outside of blogging, that I've put on the back-burner for a very long time.
I'm just now, getting back to some of those things.

I have an individual on my staff, who is capable of operating the blog in my absence... and that's another option.

We'll see...

Peace, LS

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Speaking of absences...
Has anyone seen Dilligaf?
I miss his posts.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd! Thanks for coming on!

I'm listening to Beethoven, as usual. Beautiful.

G'night Jugdish! Love ya bunches!!! :)

Doc Sierra said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Doc.

Everything's cool.
I've just been on a much-needed break.
--------------------------
Hi Skynyrd,
I'm glad you're ok. We'll talk more when you come back. Take care and keep up the great work that you do when you come back.
Doc

johnnyseattle said...

hey Lynryd
Take a break and then return ala Gen McArthur:

Tanned, Rested, and Ready!


Seriously, if you are not having fun or creatively engaged with the blog you should get away from it for awhile. Folks will understand. Hell, we all got regular work that taxes our time and life energy enough.

matt prokes said...

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
thats my favorite manson quote as well.
more true today than ever before.

leary7 said...

I, for one, am deeply disturbed that Lynyrd would deem to have a life outside the realm of Manson. The gall of him.

Seriously Lynyrd, go to a few Bruins games, hit the bars up in Newburyport (my favorite all-time drinking town), maybe even talk to a girl or two.
Come back when the snow is gone and your heart is full of spring.

Katie will keep us all in line.

Lauren Webster said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCN-muSxyAc

my favorite, especially 0:16!

louis365 said...

All Charlie ever did was eat, drink, be merry, and play the guitar.

katie8753 said...

Another one of my favorite Charlie quotes is:

Oh, I'm a hippy cult leader? What the hell's a hippy cult leader? LOL!

Hey Venus, check your e-mail. :)

katie8753 said...

Oops, never mind Venus. I got your e-mail. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Okay off subject for a minute, today on the stand, Jodi Arias tried to tell the jury what happened the night she killed Travis Alexander.

Except....as expected.....she can't remember!

We've heard the excruciating minutiae of her life since she was 3 years old, and she can remember every second. But somehow she can't remember stabbing Travis in the back, slashing each cut down for 4 inches, trying to cut his head off, taking pictures of him dying, dragging him back into the shower, turning the shower on to rinse the blood off, putting his clothes along with the camera into the washer, but then suddenly her memory returns when she leaves his house.

How convenient. But tomorrow Juan Martinez is going to cross examine her, and I guarantee you, it won't be about the excruciating minutiae of her stupid life. It's going to be about the night of June 4, 2008.

Oh and Jodie had planned to kill herself taking Advil. Looks like it didn't work. LOL.

MrPoirot said...

Jodi plans on telling Martinez that Charlie ordered her to kill Travis.

This is a very strange case because I have trouble understanding how she obtained such a high level of viciousness. A simple bullet in the head would have sufficed yet she was sitting there trying to saw his head off.

Gilty or innocent what will remain unanswered after the verdict is whether she really dropped Travis' brand new camera. I suspect travis bought her the new digital camera as a breaking up present.

Frankly, I've never seen anyone so at odds with their religion as Travis was. The guy was a devout Morman who broke every church tenant in existance. I think Travis would have made a better Baptist than a Morman.The only church tenant Travis could obey was to not imbibe in alcohol.

I'm amazed Jodi could be so violent without any drugs or alcohol.
For the life of me I can't see why Jodi attempted to become a Morman. She went from a Wiccan to a Morman. That's a bit of a stretch for anyone to achieve.

It's odd that Jodi was a professional photogragher yet she destroyed a brand new camera. Is nothing sacred?

louis365 said...

lol Katie

matt prokes said...

MrPoirot said...Frankly, I've never seen anyone so at odds with their religion as Travis was. The guy was a devout Morman who broke every church tenant in existance.

I'll bet the majority of religious people are at odds with their religion,they're just not exposed like travis alexander has been.
I'm not saying everyone but most people are hypocrites deep down inside when it comes to religion.
I havent paid close attention to this trial but how does a guy get shot in the head and keep fighting and threatening arias?
Wouldn't the fight be over at that point?
Can forensics prove that she stabbed then shot him by the angle of the gunshot wound?
that would make more sense to me.
I think she'll be in for a very rough ride when cross examination starts.

matt prokes said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpIgmjNgtWs

jeffrey jeff said...

Travis Alexander wasn't a devout Mormon....He was a Sunday Mormon. Sunday Mormons are actually quite common in the Mormon religion. They go to church on Sunday put on a good show and then do whatever the hell they want to the rest of the week. I don't believe half of what Jodi Arias is saying but I do believe that Travis Alexander was a bit of a douchebag. Not saying that he deserved to die, but he clearly used her as his personal sex toy. We all know guys that use women for sex and we all know women who have such low self esteem that they let 'em. I'm not buying the physical abuse or the kinky stories. I just think she snapped when she finally realized she was being used. I could buy a defense of temporary insanity but the abuse excuse isn't going to fly.

MrPoirot said...

Matt you have a quaint understanding of religion. I get the impression you suppose churchgoers as thinking they are perfect. The entire basis of the Christian denominations is that ALL humans are sinners. We even have denominations where alcohol is permitted. Most denominations allow alcohol in fact.
I have an aunt who was verbally accosted by an atheist who rather rudely asked her why she belived in God. She calmly told him, "it's just a nice way to live".
Being a believer in God does not make you a nice person. Nice people sin too but they can aspire to do better and make amends.
What i find amazing about the bible is that is extremely old. The old Testament begins it's tale 3500 yrs ago. But the intellectual background began over 6000 years ago. The basic Bible framework never changes with time and in a day of sufficating political correctness I find that a refuge.

leary7 said...

Wow...beautifully written Mr. P.

We gotta get you and Frank in a spiritual discussion someday.

katie8753 said...

Boy Juan Martinez is tearing Jodi Arias a new asshole and I'm lovin' it!

He's not allowing her to tell her sob-story bullshit stories, he just yells "answer yes or no".

He better be careful...she might try to saw his head off. LOL.

FrankM said...

Mr P’s faith in the Bible is touching, if ill-founded. Allow me a few words, not to put down Mr P but to give my view. The following is an opinion. Feel free to agree, disagree or ignore. I’d prefer it if responses to this were civil.

It is common to talk of ‘the Bible’ as if it were a book. It is not. It is a fairly arbitrary collection of texts, written at different times, which different people, for different reasons, again at different times, have considered sufficiently sacred to be canonical.

Most modern Christian Bibles stem from the Latin Vulgate Bible based on the content and order determined by Pope Damasus I at the Council of Rome in AD 382. He got Saint Jerome to produce a definitive text, translating from Greek and Hebrew into Latin. The 1546 Council of Trent declared this to be the only authentic and official Bible,

Notwithstanding, within Judaism and Christianity there is still today no clear consensus as to which ‘books’ (read texts) to include within their canons, nor in which order to include them. Some congregations also make use of an Apocrypha – others don’t.

The issue is compounded by the fact that for many of these texts there is more than one version extant. One example: many of the Dead Sea scrolls have now been deciphered, and predate versions of texts in the Bibles commonly used today. However, in many cases their texts differ and there is no rush for the earlier versions to supplant the ones in print.

Although it would be a coherent policy to adopt the earlier version this is a political potato as the versions often reflect the nature of the early church leaders who used them – an Essene text would clearly differ in its essence from one used by Pharisees and Sadducees. In a sense, politics, both then and now, is in play here.

Another matter to bear in mind is that of the language the texts were originally written in and our ability today to understand that language well. For the English language bibles we use today many of the texts have been translated from one language, most likely a contemporary dialect of Aramaic or Hebrew, into a variety of Greek, thence into Latin and then into English. This has led to many uncertainties of translation: for example, the Book of Genesis makes no mention of an apple (the earliest known Hebrew text speaks of fruit) but in Latin the same word (malus/malum) can mean both ‘apple’ and ‘bad’.

A more controversial translation issue is that of Isaiah 7:14 which predicts that the Messiah will be born to a virgin. Most linguists agree that the Hebrew word almah is much more accurately translated as ‘maiden’ or ‘young woman’ rather than ‘virgin’ – the idea is that of unmarried rather than chaste.

So, back to where I started. If there is no clear agreement as to which version of which text to adopt, nor as to which translation to use, nor as to which selection of books to include, nor as to in which order they should be included, I put it to you that to talk of the Bible as a ‘framework [that] never changes with time’ is fanciful. And to talk of it as a book at all [which Mr P did not] is meaningless.

Unless, of course, you take the fundamentalist opinion that ‘every word in the Bible is true’ in which case there’ll be some serious explaining to do. But I have learned not to engage with fundamentalists.

FrankM

MrPoirot said...

(Quote by Frank)
So, back to where I started. If there is no clear agreement as to which version of which text to adopt, nor as to which translation to use, nor as to which selection of books to include, nor as to in which order they should be included, I put it to you that to talk of the Bible as a ‘framework [that] never changes with time’ is fanciful. And to talk of it as a book at all [which Mr P did not] is meaningless.{end quote}

Poirot says:

This is where you get the differant denominations: apple vs fruit, virgin vs young maiden. But these are semantic ambiguitys.

Frank the Dead Sea Scrolls are from the time Jesus lived. They are the same books we have now. Only the book of Esther is not in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I have seen Matt P speak negatively of religious people many times and you said nothing.So that is ok by you. I am the only one to speak up for religion and you flip out. Why? What is so threatening to you? Is it the book of Romans? I suspect it is. I'll bet you can find a church that doesn't teach that book.

It's just a nice way to live Frank. Go eat some fruit if you want.

matt prokes said...

MrPoirot said...I have seen Matt P speak negatively of religious people many times

Many times.....really?

katie8753 said...

Mr. P., I don't recall Matt speaking negatively about anyone. LOL.

FrankM said...

Mr P: I wouldn't downplay the significance of the Virgin Mary to Christianity, especially to the Roman Catholic community. A lot derives from her virginity, and I don’t think you’ll get many of that ilk accepting that the Immaculate Conception, Virgin Birth and Assumption are semantic ambiguitys [sic].

Did I flip out? Or is that your paranoia fuelled perception? Let us not confuse speaking negatively of religion(s) with speaking negatively of religious people. One can sometimes respect the fact that people believe more readily than the substance of their belief.

FrankM

katie8753 said...

Hi Frank. I like it when you stop by. It breathes an air of sophistication into any blog. I'm not sure if it's the aristocratic way of speaking, or the tweed jacket, full beard and sly smile.

LOL. But I love your posts! :)

katie8753 said...

Okay back to Jodi Arias.

>>>Mr. P said: Jodi plans on telling Martinez that Charlie ordered her to kill Travis.>>>

That might be a viable defense. If only she'd thought of it. HA HA.

I'm wondering if she used a good ole Bowie knife to cut, hack and slice.

When the defense was questioning her, she was demure and apologetic, crying at times, and blubbering about how she wanted to kill herself.

Now that she's being cross-examined, she's got a permanent smirk on her face, quick to answer, quick to defend herself.

She's definitely a Sociopath. Sociopaths don't have remorse. They revel in their dirty deeds, and take great delight in the aftermath of infamy. They also have different personalities that they exhibit when necessary. Jodi has done all this and more.

She reminds me a LOT of Charles Manson.

matt prokes said...

I'm not crazy about the prosecutor.
Does he always have to yell to makes his points?
Hes on the right side of the facts but blustery,angry people always turn me off.

matt prokes said...

katie8753 said..She reminds me a LOT of Charles Manson
yeah but she come up with gems like this?
"do you feel like wolf kabob roff vantage? Gefraanis booj pooch boo jujube bear rammage. Jigiji geeji geeja geeble gooble. Begep flagaggle vaggle veditch waggle bagga?"

bobby said...

'There's no atheists in fox holes.'

Just saying.

katie8753 said...

Bobby - so right! :)

Matt I agree that he's a little too over the edge. I don't think he scored a lot of points yesterday because she's definitely got her shields up. But I think in time he'll wear her down.

One thing I'm disappointed in with him is that he jumps from one thing to another without completing the point. Unless he's just so good at what he's doing that I can't figure it out. LOL.

FrankM said...

Nice aphorism, Bobby, but like another much quoted saying 'God tempers the wind to the shorn lamb' most likely more honoured in the breach than in the observance.

I was a career soldier and was shelled in Nam and elsewhere. I didn't note this to be the case, and many of my fellow Marines had no time for God. We were too busy keeping each other alive. My own father was an observer at Arnhem where the Allied forces were picked off as they parachuted down - sitting ducks if ever there were. He was deeply religious before the war and a sworn atheist afterwards, and it is a much quoted observation that Arnhem affected many servicemen in this way. [Younger members here who may not know about Arnhem can find the details at wikipedia].

Probably more about me than people here need to know, but this touched a nerve. No fault of yours, Bobby.

FrankM





.

MrPoirot said...

I was a career soldier and was shelled in Nam and elsewhere. I didn't note this to be the case, and many of my fellow Marines had no time for God. We were too busy keeping each other alive. My own father was an observer at Arnhem where the Allied forces were picked off as they parachuted down - sitting ducks if ever there were. He was deeply religious before the war and a sworn atheist afterwards, and it is a much quoted observation that Arnhem affected many servicemen in this way.

(end quote)
Here is another aphorism:
Why hath God foresaken me.
Jesus said this while nailed to the cross.

matt prokes said...

katie8753 said..One thing I'm disappointed in with him is that he jumps from one thing to another without completing the point

Sometimes lawyers do that on purpose the rattle the witness.
The idea is to make it harder for the witness to keep their stories straight.

FrankM said...

Mr P: I think we have a wire crossed here. I'm not (in fact I don't think anyone is) attacking your beliefs. I was addressing the appropriateness of a well known saying and relating it to my experience.

Respectfully, you are way too sensitive, and seem to think things are aimed at you when they are not. Everything I (and most others here) say is an opinion, with which others can agree or disagree.

If I am critical of a church or (some of) its practices that does not mean I'm getting at its congregation, or that you need to spring to its defence. Although, of course, you are perfectly entitled to do so.

Interestingly the quote you give (misquoted as *"Why hath God foresaken me") is the only one of the Seven sayings of the Cross that occurs in more than one gospel – it is in both Matthew (27:46) and Mark (15:34) – and refers to the OT text in the Book of Psalms (Psalm 22). The text is most often quoted in transliterated Hebrew as Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?, rather than in English; roughly translated into today's English, it would be "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?".

It's not what I would call an aphorism, really, as it expresses neither a general truth or an opinion. The question it poses, however, is a good one.

matt prokes said...

I'm sorry I started this whole mess by expressing my opinion a few posts back but I was very careful not to include 'everyone'in what I said.
While I still believe what I said is true it was the wrong place to say it.
Its got nothing to do with the topic at hand and for that I apologize to katie who started this thread for derailing it.
Honestly arguing about religion is a waste of time because you'll never change anyones mind and everyone goes away pissed off.

leary7 said...

a dream come true for me...
I know religion and spiritual discussions are not for everyone but I could read Mr P. and Frank all day. Thanks guys.
Now if we could only get Charlie, or even Bruce or Tex, to weigh in. The 'construction' of the Bible is truly one of the great tales.

katie8753 said...

Hey Matt don't worry one bit about it! I don't care what we discuss as long as we're having fun doing it.

Frank & Mr. P both have valid points. I have my own opinions about religion, but I think I'll just sit this one out. LOL.

matt prokes said...

I have my own opinions about religion, but I think I'll just sit this one out.

thats a smart move.

matt prokes said...

oops i should have put katie said in the quote!

FrankM said...

Apologies for the derailment ... actually I blame Leary, for the flattery and encouragement :-)

Now, where did I put that bottle ...?

FrankM

leary7 said...

While I most definately respect and understand those who opt to not discuss religion or politics, I must admit it baffles me a bit. What topics could be more interesting than understanding our relationship to the cosmos (religion) or contemplating how we govern and function together as an entity (politics).

You know, it was funny. Last week in therapy I made a flip comment evoking the name of one Charles Manson and my therapist had a bird. She jumped all over me for bringing "cheap, vulgar sensationalism" into our conversation about nihilism. I mean she really got ticked off.
I truly believe the Manson story is THE AMERICAN NIHILISTIC STORY.
But she was so offended by the mere mention of Charlie's name I had to bite my tongue and back down. No sense bickering at a couple hundred bucks an hour.

Anyways, it's funny what subjects have become almost taboo in today's tweet happy culture.
That is why I so unabashadly cheer the well-thought out writings of guys like Frank and Mr P and others who are willing to discuss without reservation.

MrPoirot said...

Leary it is well known that Manson was into scientology which is totally antithetical to pshychiatrists and psychologists. L Ron Hubbard is adamently against them and there methods. Scientology forbids psychiatry and teaches it is completely phony. I suspect that pschychiatrists and psychologists all see Manson as a threat to their gravy train.

katie8753 said...

Hi Leary. I think it's probably because religion is a very personal thing and when someone doesn't agree with the way you feel (atheist or believer) it's somehow conceived as a personal attack. I'm guessing.

So your therapist didn't want you to talk about Manson? I thought they loved that kind of stuff.

Did you mention that you participate in several Manson blogs? LOL.

katie8753 said...

Oops sorry Mr. P. I didn't see your comment before I commented. So that 'splains that! LOL.

FrankM said...

I have read in a number of places that Manson studied Scientology in prison with the help of a fellow prisoner, and claimed to be “theta clear.” Now in my experience to be ‘clear’ in the 60s would have not been cheap, and whereas the Church of Scientology may have made funding available to promising members it’s hard to see how or why a person of the caliber of Manson would have been deemed suitable. It’s also hard to know he would have had access to a trained auditor.

I find it hard to see Manson as any kind of scientologist. I remembered looking at this before, so I turned to my notes and found the following, taken from a website I no longer have a record of”

From a Scientology compliance report investigating Manson's possible involvement in Scientology in the wake of the Tate-LaBianca murders. (These were part of documents seized by the FBI from the Church of Scientology in 1977 and subsequently made available through the Freedom of Information act):

GS-C Comm GS-G 22 June 70 D/G Intell U.S.

Dear Mary Sue, COMPLIANCE REPORT

RE: MANSON, BRUCE DAVIS

There have been numerous new developments on this case and they are as follows.

[snip]

On 18 June 80 the following report was received by me.

Report of interview with Raul Morales, Re: Charles Manson.

According to Raul: Raul arrived in prison on McNeil Island, Washington in 1962 and became a cell mate of Lafayette Raimer allegedly a trained Scientology auditor (about Level I in Raul's estimation) and was introduced to Scientology at that time. Raimer was auditing in prison at that time and in one 10 man cell had managed to gather a group of about 7, all in Scientology. Charles Manson entered later and studied, did TRO etc. along with his cell-mates and received approximately 150 hours of auditing from Raimer. Processes used were CCH's, Help processes (Who have you helped-Who have you not helped) and other Dichotomy processes (Rauls terms, such as What can you confront, what would you rather not confront), Havingness (Such as "What can you have?" "Look around and find something you can have. Look around and find something you're not in." Rainer kept records of his auditing. Manson got super-energetic & flipped out when he'd been audited and would, for a time, talk about nothing but Scientology to the extent that people avoided his company. After a while, however, Manson was screaming to get away from his auditor (in Raul's opinion, he'd been severely over-run or something). He eventually managed to get put in solitary confinement to get away from his auditor. Eventually prison officials got suspicious of the groups strange activities and broke up the group. Subsequently, Raul was released from the prison in 1965. Raimer's wife was in training here at the L.A. Org in 1965-66; she had disconnected from Raimer. Raul just found out yesterday that another friend, Marvin White, later sent Manson books (after the Scientology group was broken up) on hypnotism and black magic, …


Any mind-washing leader uses terminology and jargon to keep his followers together, and there is (to me at least) no doubt that some of the language CM et al used - such as ‘Cease to exist’ and ‘Coming to now’ are taken from Scientology. But you’ll also find stuff from Christianity, Satanism (see above) and what seems to be a variety of Nazism. CM was eclectic. He was a borrower, and very possibly didn’t understand particularly well some of the stuff he borrowed. Sanders recognized this quite clearly when he wrote of ‘sleazo inputs’.

Anyway, this may not be new to some members but it is related to one of the derailments on the blog. Katy will tell me to shut up if she wants to.

FrankM

katie8753 said...

Thanks for sharing that Frank! That's very interesting. I hadn't seen that before.

>>>and there is (to me at least) no doubt that some of the language CM et al used - such as ‘Cease to exist’ and ‘Coming to now’ are taken from Scientology.>>>

And how about "no sense makes sense"? LOL.

Feel free to discuss this all you want to! :)

bobby said...

Thank you Frank. I hope you share more of your case knowledge with us.

I envy those on both sides of the religion position. I wish I had the blind faith in God or the we just happened along & turn into fertilzer like everything else around us.

However: every time i find myself " in a fox hole " I have blind faith as many do.

FrankM said...

Maybe your position is a more honest one than that of both the theist and the atheist, Bobby,

There are said to be two kinds of atheists: the agnostic atheist (who has no belief in God but accepts that God's existence is either unknown or unknowable) and the gnostic atheist (who has no belief in God and maintains that God definitely does not exist)

The arrogance of the second (for 'arrogance', read certainty) is comparable with that of the believer. The position of the Agnostic, who says simply that he does not know, is the only intellectually honest position. Or so say some people. I think we can take the agnostic's position much further, into the realms of likelihood and supporting evidence, but it's getting late ...

Fox hole recantation is understandable, and may be a genuine recourse to a saviour or some subconscious mechanism to hedge our bets. But, as i tried to point out earlier, it is not a universal reaction.

FrankM

bobby said...

But, as i tried to point out earlier, it is not a universal reaction.

agreed.

katie8753 said...

Well, I will say this about that. And it's all I'm going to say on this subject.

I don't believe in atheists. The Bible says "every man has a measure of faith". Faith is defined as "things hoped for, but not yet seen".

I know that everyone's situation is different. Where they came from, how they grew up, what life conditions they endured, what they were taught, what they rejected, etc., etc.

But I can't fathom any man or woman who doesn't know in their soul that there is a higher power. You can be mad at him for things that have happened to you, but being mad at him is evidence that he does indeed exist.

Just my 2 cents. Peace! :)

FrankM said...

I can't fathom any man or woman who doesn't know in their soul that there is a higher power.

Katie: have a look at humanism - the belief that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs. It's quite a large movement, and I think most of its members would deny the existence of a 'higher power'.

Which doesn't mean any of us have to agree or disagree with them.

FrankM

matt prokes said...

Lets say you live a good life,do all the right things,treat people the way you'd like to be treated etc.
Wouldn't that be just as good as believing in a 'higher power'and wouldn't that be enough to get you to the next step whatever that might(or might not)be?
Thats the way I see life.
Do the right thing and you will be rewarded...if a reward exists.

katie8753 said...

Frank I'm not talking about "living a good life". I'm not even really talking about the "afterlife". What I'm talking about is the existence of life.

A man of your abundant intelligence should surely know that the human body is an extraordinary machine. The brain, by itself, is an organ that's so complicated that we STILL haven't figured it out by 2013. And are you saying that this human body was created by "accident"? By some cosmic "gill-flirt"?

Sorry I don't buy that. There is a reason for life. I think you know that. I think you're mad at that "higher power" for circumstances you were placed in, and as you said, your Dad was placed in.

My Dad was in World War II as well. He fought in the Pacific.

I'm really sorry for your loss. But that doesn't diminish the reality of the existence of God.

Be mad at him all you want. Believe me, I've had my share of being mad at him. But you can't be mad at something that doesn't exist.

And please don't tell me you're not mad at him. It's evident from your posts.

Frank, I say this in love. Peace! :)

katie8753 said...

Matt I agree with you. Very well put! :)

This is the last I'll say on this subject. If anyone else addresses me and I don't respond, please don't take offense. It's just that I won't argue about this.

Have a nice evening everyone. And if you want to bash Jodi Arias, feel free. LOL.

FrankM said...

Katie: accepted in love and peace. Topic closed.

FrankM

leary7 said...

i know this conversation isn't everyone's cup of tea but I really enjoyed it.
And that is a GREAT POINT Mr. P about why therapists might have such anti-CM feelings.

And yes, religion talk can be a challenge, but isn't the study of TLB and Manson at its core a reflection of an "extreme belief system". I have always found Frank's comments pertinent and illuminating in that regard.

katie8753 said...

Leary I agree. I always enjoy reading Frank's comments!

These are the days when I really miss St. Circumstance. Boy would he have a lot to add to this conversation! LOL!

matt prokes said...

Maybe there should be a 'religion' post where people could continue the discussion if they want.

bobby said...

Matt, 30 years ago I was working on a assembly line at fisher Price toys. I was young dumb and full of ho hum. I would argue with the born again woman and I used your arguement about a person being perfect in every way , yet no heaven for them. Then I would argue about native americans and that a perfect native prior to whites coming couldn't get in. Then I hit them with my Dad. 299th first on Omaha & Utah and the nicest Person on the face of the earth. How could these people be left out due to saying a few particular words ? I'm no St C but that's what I got to say.

katie8753 said...

Yes Matt, we could name it "The Hour of Power". LOL.

B-O-B-B-Y!!!!!!!!!!! :)

matt prokes said...

bobby,thats funny...30 years ago I was working on a assembly line at leviton testing dimmer switches arguing with the lady next to me about religion.
Its a good way to pass the time in a factory.
Then and now I just don't believe that it matters what book you read or what building you spend your sunday mornings in.
Do the best you can to be a good human being,don't hurt other human beings(or animals) on purpose.
That way when your time comes you can go with a clear conscience and if there is a god or some higher power he'll(or she'll) wave you on through because you did the best you could.

Katie we could call it 'uncle matt's good time gospel hour'and charge a dollar at the door.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Ah yes... religion.

I'll begin, with yet another installment of "bumper sticker philosophy". LOL

I once saw a bumper sticker, which summed-up this whole situation pretty well.

The sticker had a cross on it, and underneath, it read:
"To those who believe, no explanation is necessary. To those who don't believe, no explanation will ever be good enough".
OK... it's just a bumper sticker, but it's pretty accurate.

As MattP stated earlier... the problem with religious discussions, is that no one ever changes anyone's mind anyway... and generally... the only discernable result is hard feelings.
I agree with Matt's sentiment.

I once heard a religious man say the following, in regards to his faith:
"The wind is invisible... I can't see it... but because the leaves move, I know it exists"
I kinda liked that one... LOL

I believe all of man's "religious institutions" are pretty f#cked up.
How could they not be?
Everything man oversees is completely flawed.

I also believe, that man's concept/interpretation of God, has got to be inaccurate.
Again... how could it not be?

But, having said all that... I AM a believer.
I believe God exists, and furthermore, I firmly believe in a "hereafter".

I believe that every person, has a right to believe (or not believe) whatever he/she chooses.
As my Grandfather used to say t best:
"Every man carries his own bag"

I'm not in the business of strong-arming folks into my belief system.
No two people believe the same thing anyway.
Every relationship with God, is entirely unique.

I also don't believe, that a person has to practice the same religion as me, to be "saved".
I've known very good people from many religions... (and some real assholes, from my own).
I know a Muslim guy, who is very honorable.
You know a man by his fruit... not by what he preaches, what he believes, or what religion he adheres to.
Or, to quote yet another bumper sticker:
"The proof is in the pudding" LOL

Peace... LS

katie8753 said...

Katie we could call it 'uncle matt's good time gospel hour'and charge a dollar at the door.

Good idea Matt. Can we split the profits 50/50? LOL.

LYNYRD! Good to see you!

Hey maybe even Jodi Arias will get "borned again" during her lifetime sentence in prison. And again...and again...and again...

She's joined more religions than she's changed her fictitious spidey-man undies. HA HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Okay Jodi Arias is still guilty, the moon is still in the sky, and my son's car still is broken.

The big hand is on the 15 and the little hand is on the 11.

Ahhhhh.....time to retire. Tomorrow is Sunday. Lots to do tomorrow. Star City Radio tomorrow! :)

G'night Jugdish!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

The big hand is on the 15?? LOL
What kind of a clock are you lookin' at??

louis365 said...

When you leave, go and get a big rock and put it on the table. I'm that rock on the table.


What makes the cell bad to you? You can't stand yourself, so you don't like the cell. I don't mind the cell. My best friends in there!

Doc Sierra said...

My stepfather was the Chief Medical Officer at Vacaville in the 70s and 80s. Manson came in complaining of hip pain and asked my stepfather for a cane. My stepfather said "Charlie, I can't give you a cane. That's a weapon". Charlie replied "Well, can I have a gun? There's people in here that want to kill me".