Saturday, September 15, 2012

PSYCHIATRIC EVALUATION
FOR CHARLES DENTON WATSON
Neurological and E.E.G. evaluation by R.D. Walter, M.D. dated April 14, 1971.

Doctor Walters found dilated pupils that reacted sluggishly to light, marked slowing in the performance of rapid motor tasks, slurred speech, difficulty in recent memory, and impaired ability to supply similarities in the abstract fashion... all signs of organic brain disease.

Watson reached total identity confusion, in that he and the group were "one", from Manson’s lectures and the drugs. He was an insecure and dependent individual with a great need to please and be accepted. He was not psychotic before California, but was after the drugs eluted ego strength and self-identity rendering him less in-touch with reality, less assertive and functional. 

He had become a puppet, dependent upon, and frightened of Manson. After his arrest he became catatonic-like. He currently shows residuals of his psychotic and robot-like state in that he is in limbo between ideologies with Manson and his preexisting ones. Wide spread central nervous system damage probably due to heavy drug use.

Watson is described as the ideal son raised by a domineering mother with an inadequate sense of self-identity – passive, dependent and identified somewhat to a passive, submissive father. He lead a life of letting others decide his role and behavior. In Manson he found a powerful father figure who kept him in a drug induced psychosis – a suggestible state of intoxication where he was desensitized to the act of murder by disassociating feelings from actions.

During the murders, he was in such a drug-induced psychotic state, he mechanically and without feeling for others, believed them to be imaginary people. Realization of his acts did not come until after he stopped taking drugs and returned to his parents home in Texas. This realization lead to a profound depression, mutism, and regression on return to LA County Jail. After being drug free for over a year he still showed evidence of  impaired intellectual functioning, poor coordination and psychotic thinking on tests and examinations. He improved considerably at Atascadero Hospital and should continue to improve with medical care. Watson has a large amount of suppressed hostility and anger and is considered to be a “walking time bomb”. He can be a dangerous individual under certain circumstances and his violence potential is above average.

110 comments:

katie8753 said...

My First Thread!!! LOL. Love it!

Tex Watson...psychotic manic baby-killer or just a malingerer?

You decide....:)

katie8753 said...

It's funny how after CA repealed the death penalty and he had a stab at getting out that he changed his tune and later became "born again" instead of being a shriveled, dried up gourd. He looks pretty nourished today.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I just showed Katie how to post directly to the blog.

Maybe it's high time, I take one of those psychological exams. LOL!

katie8753 said...

Oh, and I use the word "stab" loosely. LOL.

Kimchi said...

This is awesome Katie. Good job. The dude was still having affects of the belladonna and speed. I still think baby killer tex had an instinct before the drugs.

A killer instinct. Ever see natural born killers?

katie8753 said...

Thanks Kimchi! I agree. I think Tex had something evil inside....

I've seen Natural Born Killers, and I believe that's Tex.

That opens up a whole 'nother discussion about Tex.

I've got lots of thread info on baby-killin' Tex. I will post as I get a chance....and as Lynyrd allows. LOL

Kimchi said...

It's a great topic.... I can comment all day and night on this one....lol

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Yeah... Tex is always a crowd-pleaser.

He's the gift, that just keeps-on giving! LOL!

Kimchi said...

I've read that attorney Boyd advised tex to "put on" this exhibit of depression and mutism. Thank God the authorities here and the jury didn't buy it...

Kimchi said...

Katie, I have some photos of Copeville, Farmersville, and the university that I personally took... I will email you those when you are ready... Oh and the courthouse where the turd was housed...

MrPoirot said...

I'm going to be devil
s advocate here. Pun intended.

I don't think Tex was violent in his life until Cielo. The combination of Charlie. Belladonna and acid in 69 sent Tex's brain into atrophy.

One terrible recollection by Tex stated a time where he did Belladonna and then went down to the bike shop and ended up on the ground crawling and getting arrested and then bear up in jail.

There needs to be some consideration of what effect Belladonna had in TLB. Was Belladonna the one variable that enabled the TLB catastrophe?

johnnyseattle said...

This quote is pretty interesting
"In Manson he found a powerful father figure who kept him in a drug induced psychosis "

correct me if I am wrong, but Tex was a drug dealer BEFORE he met Manson.

given his access to drugs, it isn't like he needed Charlie to stay hopped up on drugs.

johnnyseattle said...

In regards to the 'father figure' comment, that part dovetails exactly with Tex's defense of helpless/mindless robot who found himself under the spell of an evil Svengali.

I hope Katie posts about Tex's evil ways,especially prior to Manson.


sunset77 said...

"Doctor Walters found dilated pupils", that report was from Apr. 14, 1971. That's pretty amazing if Watson's pupils were still dilated from drugs he took at the ranch, and not from drugs they game him at Atascadero. Watson was in jail in Texas for several months fighting extradition, maybe someone sneaked him drugs there also.

I did LSD a grand total of ONE time in about 1983, I went in the bathroom of the bar I was in, noticed in the mirror my pupils were extremely dilated, the color of my eyes was almost non existent. It "wore off" after about 12 hours.

I would be very interested in knowing if the drugs Watson took in the Manson family were responsible for his pupils still being dilated in 1971. Atkins said in an interview it took like 12 years for her to "come down" from the drugs.

The human brain controls everything a person thinks and does, from brushing your teeth, to driving a Powerwagon, to committing murder. There are thousands of cases of mind altering drugs affecting peoples judgements, do a Google search of "murders caused by Prozac". I can't hardly imagine the effects of hundreds of trips of LSD, methedrine, cocaine, peyote, marijuana, psilocybin, belladonna, etc.

My own personal belief is that these drugs go a long way to explaining "what happened".

MrPoirot said...

Gypsy said she remained in a childlike state for many years after doing so much acid.

If LSD were always available why did Tex use a dirty drug like belladonna. Perhaps Tex was trying to lose himself. The ego-death thing was the goal of the Family. After they killed their egos the Family kept beating that dead horse.

MrPoirot said...

If one kills their ego, what is left? Evil? The Devil?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"The simple and undeniable truth is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet".
Leary7


LMAO!

(I think I'm gonna put that one, in the sidebar!)

katie8753 said...

Thanks Kimchi. Go ahead and send those pics if you will and I'll save them for future use.

Food for thought...I remember back in 1969 when we found out the main killer of TLB was a Texan, the general consensus in this state was shock, embarrassment, humiliation and anger that he was even from Texas and that his nickname was "Tex".

If he had been tried here, say in Dallas County or even in Harris County, I feel certain he would have been tried, convicted and would be dead by now.

BTW Dill, is it even possible to be tried in a state in which you didn't commit the crime? I don't know the legalities.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."
-- Harold True


LMFAO!

katie8753 said...

Tex is a hard guy to figure out. I think that the drugs and Charlie's influence did affect him, but I don't think it was to the extent he claims.

He appeared to be pretty independent of Charlie at times during his involvement with the family.

We really don't know a lot about what he did prior to him meeting Charlie, except what he has said in his book. I personally don't think he was involved in any murders prior to Cielo Drive. I know there is a lot of speculation about him committing other murders, but I don't think any proof has been offered.

Did Tex "turn evil"? Or does evil start from conception? I don't know.

katie8753 said...

This is a portion of what Tex said in a psychiatric interview in 1971:

Q. Do you remember where you got the line, “I am the devil and I’m here to do the devils work” which Linda said you said in the presence of Charles Manson and two girls that you had said to the people in the Tate house?

A. I didn’t say anything like that. I couldn’t speak too good sometimes, other times okay.

Q. Why are you denying everything?

(Examiner’s note: At this point the defendant is angry and raises his voice.)

A. I’m not denying, I’m telling the truth.

Q. How do you feel about what you did?

A. It was fun tearing up the Tate house, OK.

Q. It was fun?

A. You should have seen it, people were running around like chickens with their heads cut off. (Defendant is laughing)


Those statements say a lot about Tex's ability to tell the truth and more importantly, how truly "sorry" he was for committing the murders.

leary7 said...

Tex is a fascinating case. It's just to bad he is such a raging asshole that we rarely feel like doing so.
If the drugs weren't around there at North Texas when Tex attended would he have stayed the course and just evolved like every other schmuck - degree, job, wife, suburban home, kids etc etc.?

As a vet of a hundred odd acid trips - I grew up a short walk from Harvard Square where you could buy a hit of Orange Sunshine for 75 cents - I will agree that when your reality parameters are chemically altered it does take some time to come back. And if you suffer from the dreaded "BAD TRIP" it can take years.

It seems the consensus here is that Tex had a strong pre-disposition to both violence and evilness and that the drugs - especially the belladonna and the speed - pushed him over the edge.
I worked for several years as a substance abuse counselor (no lie) and I'll tell ya flat out I would rather deal with twenty heroin junkies than one speed tweaker. Nasty stuff, the crystal.

TomG said...

The organic brain disease thing would be the defense I would go with....

rather than all that dominant mother/passive father weak self-identity stuff that nobody really understands.

But they understand a fucked-up brain. And will give a wide latitude for it.

leary7 said...

if you could have the genie and three wishes with regards to TLB, what would they be?
My first would be to see Tex charged with Shorty's murder, tried and convicted and given the needle. If anyone deserves the needle it is the weasel Tex.
My second wish would be for Charlie to be interviewed one last time by someone like Howard Stern or Chelsea Handler, someone who could wiseass bullshit with him even up.
And my third wish would be a film made where Cappy, Lynn, Brenda and Ouish and Mary sitting at one of those outdoor tables at a Starbucks and have Linda come around the corner and sit at the next table. Now that would be a reality show.

katie8753 said...

Hey Leary, how about if Pat, Susan & Leslie were sitting at an outdoor table at Starbucks and Linda sat at the next table? That would really be some fireworks. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Johnny, Tex was definitely on drugs before he met Manson, but was he doing psychedelics? I thought it was just pot.

Question: If Tex had never met Manson, do you think that Tex would ever have killed anyone??

TomG said...

Probably not. But predicting human behavior is a vocation not many have proved to be very successful at.

Mrstormsurge said...

Back then memory tests and tests where any person simply answers a question were not supplemented by tests of malingering. Those tests came to become very developed and well researched only in the last 10-15 years. Plenty of people lie and give responses that are poor to memory tests etc. THAT, unless there is not evidence of brain damage unless they do not fail malingering tests.

katie8753 said...

Tom that's true, but if you take the possibility that if Tex had never met Charlie he wouldn't have been a killer, then the only logical answer is that Charlie influenced Tex to kill.

katie8753 said...

Hi Stormy!! :)

Mrstormsurge said...

Also brain damage is not really a useful concept. it's like being "sick." In a legal sense one has to define how a person is damaged and explain why this damage either led them to commit a crime or prevented them from stopping themselves. Being damaged by itself does not necessarily get one off the hook legally.

Mrstormsurge said...

Hi Katie !!!!

TomG said...

Two different topics going on here. One,is the physical brain and its relationship to stimulants and hallucinogens

The other, is character, a person understands that the people he is with opposes his moral beliefs, but chooses to stay among them anyway.

My opinion is that Tex Watson is both of the above. But if you play the game, you pay the price.

MrPoirot said...

Tex said that when he'd ingest Belladonna he would start making beeping noises like he was a space creature. He started making those noises in the Malibu jail one time so several other inmates beat the crap out of him.
Paul Watkins was the genius who turned the Family on to Belladonna. Shortly afterwards Paul got the hell outta Spahn Ranch. Coincidence?

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P said: He started making those noises in the Malibu jail one time so several other inmates beat the crap out of him.>>>

I LOVE that story. I'd pay to watch that. HA HA HA.

Mr. P., I thought it was Gypsy who brought the belladonna to the ranch...

Kimchi said...

I thought it was Nancy that found it and brewed it....

revatron said...

In Manson In His Own Words, he says a biker named Indian Joe found the plant while hiking around the ranch and told Brenda how to prepare it.
Tex supposedly ate the root like it was an apple, then went into town.
"I think it was the last time until the trials I saw Tex in what might be called his right mind."

revatron said...

In Tex's testimony, he says Paul Watkins found it.

MrPoirot said...

Belladonna grew wild on the ranch. They would harvest it from right by the waterfall.
There is the famous story of Brenda boiling Belladonna in the boardwalk kitchen. Tex grabs a big chunk and eats it. He then went to town and promptly got arrested for public goofiness. Cops found him laying in the road. Brenda tried Belladonna and manages to crawl onto the boardwalk and collapse. Her eyes rolled back into her head. They thought she was dying.It was a good batch alright.

Kimchi said...

Thanks Revatron...I knew there were several tales....I just happened to remember one. Lol

Kimchi said...

Wow mr. P, never heard that one about nancy ...

beauders said...

if tex had never met manson he would be dead. tex would have been killed for his bad drug dealing ways, before he reached his thirties. tate/labianca oddly enough saved watson's life.

Dilligaf said...

Hi Katie, sorry, I have been traveling the past few days.

You can be tried in a different county of the same state that the crime occured, if, the court has determeind that a change of venue is necessary due to the chances of not receiving a fair trial as a result of pre-trial publicity.

However, because each state's laws can vary, you cannot be tried in a different state. However, on a federal basis, because of federal jurisdiction being entirely different, it is possible to be charged in one jurisdiction of the country and tried in another if it is being adjudicated in a federal jurisdiction, think Unabomber..

Kimchi said...

Right on Beauders....

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Beauders!

Thanks Dilligaf!

Thanks Revatron!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Stormsurge!!

Leary!!

Poirot!!

Johnny!!

Sunset!!

Tom!!

katie8753 said...

Thanks Dill. I guess it wouldn't make sense to try Tex in Texas anyway.

Beauders...that makes perfect sense. :)

ST. Circumstance said...

These are very good posts...

you know during this time the Doc also took notes on an interview he did with Tex, and during this interview he notes at one point Tex explains to him about the victims at cielo " they were all running around like chickens with there heads cut off" and he also notes Tex was giggling or smiling
( I cant remember which and it was on Bretts site) at the memory when he said it...

Scary dude

katie8753 said...

Hi St.!

I copied those comments about "chickens with their heads cut off" and posted it on this thread a few comments back. Have a look! :)

ST. Circumstance said...

Yep- missed that- Sorry to repeat you

but still very scary

katie8753 said...

It was very eerie. What's interesting is to read everything that Tex has said...in these interviews, trial transcripts, his book and see how his story has changed over and over and over again.

I would love to hear what's on those tapes, but I have a feeling it's just more lies.

matt prokes said...

When are those tapes going to be released?
And when is Starcityradio going to be live again?

MrPoirot said...

Look at how quick Tex slings fear tactics on the Psychiatrist after being asked why he was denying everything. The "chicken with their heads cut off" is erily similar to the "I am the devil and I'm here to do the devils business". Tex had obviously morphed into a violent murdering psychopath. Yet in Dec 68 he was not a killer yet. Was Belladonna the straw that broke the camels back?

katie8753 said...

Matt I haven't heard anything on the tapes. I don't know.

I'm hoping Brian & LC will be back next Sunday. That's a LONG vacation. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P., in that interview in 1971 Tex talked a lot about his weak stomach and how he was "spitting up" a lot, and when describing the murders, he basically was blaming everything on the girls. He claimed then that they had to tell him what to do and he did it.

I guess Belladonna is a powerful drug, but at that point I think he was just trying to get off the hook with all his lies.

He was angry when the Dr. wasn't buying his crap.

MrPoirot said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belladonna_(plant)

Wikipedia article on Belladonna.

The shrink said Tex's eye pupils reacted slowly to light in April 1971. This is more than a year after Belladonna ingestion.
Was it Belladonna that made the Family go crazy and commit murder?

Kimchi said...

Get this, no shit either... Kaiser prescribed my sister belladonna pills for her menopause - this was 20 years ago---my mom told her not to take them...she never did....she still has them....lol

MrPoirot said...

Tex tried mixing liquid speed with the Belladonna to prolong the effects. Tex used Belladonna many times in spring/summer 69. He said he became too messed up to work on dune buggies that spring. Several Family members including Charlie remarked that Belladonna made Tex crazy.Belladonna can make you delusional and has hallucenogenic properties. Oo-ee-oo!

Kimchi said...

Does that excuse him for what he did?

MrPoirot said...

http://www.charliemanson.com/documents/testimony-watson-1.htm

Teex testifies on his Belladonna use and mixing speed with it. Tex really blew his mind out.

Could Belladonna be what made Clem so crazy as well?

MrPoirot said...

Kimchi said...
Does that excuse him for what he did?(end quote)

Poirot replies:

No. I am saying just the opposite. Tex chemically created the killer he became. Maybe it wasn't Charlie's fault as Tex claimed. Tex became the Murdering Belladonna Madman.

MrPoirot said...

Tex began using Belladonna in April 69. The shrink detected symptoms of Belladonna poisoning in April 71.

Kimchi said...

LOL -,Charlie stated somewhere (who knows if this is true) that Clem was retarded....but not according to the girls..Lol..."he was the best lay they ever had"....

MrPoirot said...

While being perpwalked down Golar Wash by police Sadie asked to be released from cuffs to have sex with Clem one last time because he was the best lay she ever had.

But the thing is: Charlie had told them to behave crazy in order to flip out the cops.

Kimchi said...

Boy, looks can be deceiving huh?

MrPoirot said...

Hey Leary! You musta done some Belladonna or heard stories. Does it make a person insane?

leary7 said...

NOpe, sorry, Mr P, not allot of belladonna around Boston during my drug years - can't blame my obnoxiousness on that. NOt allot of speed around then either, or coke. This was the early 70's, mostly just grass and acid. And my participating in the drug world ended before I was twenty due to a horrificly "bad trip" where the acid I took had a huge dose of strychnine.
It was an adjustment attending Dead concerts without the chemical alteration but the music was that good so I kept the ponytail and beard and learned to fake being wasted.
I'm still faking it.

revatron said...

If you want to read some belladonna stories, go here
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Belladonna.shtml

Most people only do it once. The fact that Tex did it more than once, and ate it the first time without knowing anything about it, shows how far out he was trying to get. He did not like reality.

I don't believe there is a case of permanent insanity from Belladonna, but it doest often result in hospitalization.
The psychedelics on the ranch played a big part of the murders, but I think speed played a bigger part.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Revatron. Belladonna seems to be a powerful drug that lasts for days at a time, depending on how much you take. I can imagine that eating this plant or taking it more than once would possibly have a detrimental effect on the brain. But like you say, Tex was also speeding.

Tex said in his trial testimony that Charlie had planned to put Belladonna in the city water tanks. I wonder if Charlie ever said that.

katie8753 said...

If Tex had brain disease from all the drug taking, would those cells repair themselves and regenerate? He seems lucid now.

bobby said...

The guy who sold wigs and scammed young woman at the same job in California new Tex not as Tex and not as a drug dealing scumbag. He was surprised years later to find out that the killer was the same person he worked and hung out with. Take for what it's worth. Tex did change at some point for some reason.

bobby said...

of course i meant knew Tex & Take IT for what it's worth.

katie8753 said...

Hi Bobby! Good to see you! :)

bobby said...

Thanks Katie, Good to see and read your words as well.

Tex seem to be normal before meeting Manson and acording to a girl friend back in Texas he was normal after Manson as well, If not maybe a little more sexually out going.

MrPoirot said...

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=18736

My God! Read this. I got this from the link just posted above by Revatron.

katie8753 said...

I read all that Mr. P.

Belladonna is a very powerful drug. Dependent on how much you ingest.

It you gobble it up like apple pie, you will be "squealing like a pig" before long. Which is basically what Tex did.

But he did that in April 1969. Is that an excuse in August 1969? Or just an alibi?

MrPoirot said...

No Katie. Tex STARTED doing Belladonna in april 69. He continued to use it all summer.

katie8753 said...

Bobby, you have reminded me of a new thread. I'm on a roll. Thanks!! :)

katie8753 said...

Mr. P., if you can, please provide the dates and times he did it again until August of 1969.

Thanks!

MrPoirot said...

Katie if you ate it like apple pie you would certainly die a gruesome death.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P., I believe that was the description given, that he gobbled it up like he was "going to the chair".

Am I incorrect?

MrPoirot said...

Katie I don't have dates and times. I do have several Family members including Charlie saying Tex was never sane again.

Tex stayed with Diane Lake at a rundown dude ranch in early september but never mentioned doing any drug. From this I can infer that he had discontued Belladonna experimentation.

MrPoirot said...

Have it your way Katie.

revatron said...

In Tex's testimony he says he did it about once a month, including eating some the morning of August 8th.

MrPoirot said...

I doubt seriously if Tex was telling the truth about using Belladonna on Auh 8th.
His balance would have been seriously impaired if he did which would have prevented him from climbing a telephone pole. Sadie said she saw Tex leap four feet off the ground in the Tate house which also would not be typical of one who is under the effects of Belladonna.

revatron said...

I don't believe he took it on Aug. 8th either. Tex was trying his best to get a lighter prison sentence.

ST. Circumstance said...

Tex said in his own book he did tow huge snorts of speed before he left, and Sadie said the same thing...

I dont believe anything either of them say for the most part. I read somewhere he took too much once and had to sit coma like for a week- but if he was sharp enough to do speed- and if he did speed- he seemed o.k. to me....

Tex did many things that night which would have not been easy if he was slightly off, or half out of it. He climbed a fence and pole while carrying equipment. He fought and struggled with several people. Even after they left they had a bit of a night ahead of them.

Point is he did alot of thinking and spent a tremendous amount of energy that night doing the Devils work...

I am not giving him credit to be able to do what he did at less than full capacity

ST. Circumstance said...

two huge snorts

read once he did too much ( Bella Dona)

katie8753 said...

These people have said that they weren't on ANY drugs that night, and then Tex & Sadie admit to speeding.

We really can't take anything they say as the truth. They've changed their stories so many times.

I agree, if Tex was doing Belladonna on August 8th, he wouldn't have been able to mow everyone down like he did. In fact, Sharon would probably have been able to kick his butt.

ST. Circumstance said...

Think about what happened from the time Tex left the ranch until the time he got back. The guy did a full nights work, and despite the fact we all think he had to be out of his mind to do what he did- he acted fairly normal afterwards when he had to speak with the guy whose hose they were cleaning off with. He was in control the entire time he was in the Cielo house. He showed pretty good presence of mind if you ask me...

revatron said...

Yeah, he was in control enough. I do believe he was tweaking that night, and the entire month leading up to then, and he easily could have been on the tail end of an acid trip - but belladonna? I don't think so. They would have REALLY gotten lost on that car ride.

ST. Circumstance said...

Again- pardon me for my ignorance with stronger drugs. I am that guy who never got passed beer and weed for the most part...

I did " crank" once in high school, and when I lived in San Diego I had a couple of dudes I partied with who did Crystal Meth. All of these are similar to Speed no?

Everything Tex did was more in line from what I would expect from someone on a drug like that than on any type of hallucinogen..

If it were proven that Tex was on speed it wouldn't surprise me at all, and might even explain the excessive amounts of stab wounds. If he was speeding and his adrenaline was pumping and he was nervous/anxious- it is a reasonable explanation for going around over and over and stabbing the same people so many times.

Better than Charlie or the devil made him do it.

katie8753 said...

St. I agree. He admits to taking speed. It also sounds like someone on PCP. I think someone on PCP is pretty much devoid of any fear at all.

I know nothing about drugs, so I don't know if PCP was even around in 1969. LOL.

ST. Circumstance said...

I dont even know what pcp is :)

revatron said...

Yeah, crank is crystal meth, and speed is a generic term for amphetamines.

ST. Circumstance said...

it sounds to me like those were the type of drugs he was taking if any-

Tex's books and websites are interesting to read in some ways. He makes some points which lend you to believe some of what he says about some things- and some of them can be verified elsewhere. Buy every single thing he does and says is self serving in some way- so its like playing defense when listening to him- your always on guard...

matt prokes said...

pcp is more widely known as angel dust which was around in my middle school/ high school days (late 70s)so i'm pretty sure it was around in the late 60s.
Just the fact that they got rid of the clothes weapons etc after the crime tells me that watson was thinking clearly enough to know right from wrong so i think i'd rule out heavy ass drugs like belladonna,dmt,stp.
I would'nt be surprised at all if Watson was telling the truth about the speed stashed under the porch.

TomG said...

Drugs always get the blame for what an otherwise inferior type of human being would have eventually done with or without the drug.

A normal person would do drugs and watch television and bullshit with their friends.

An abnormal person would wander out and commit a crime and then say it wasn't me, it was the shit I was doing.

ST. Circumstance said...

Hey Tom- we play video games too lol even in our 40's....

I have heard of angel dust- thanks Matt

katie8753 said...

Yeah, as St. pointed out, Watson was very polite and reticent to the man at the house where they hosed off.

It's amazing that minutes prior to that he was running around like a mad man, stabbing more holes in dead people.

Lots of people have taken LSD or other drugs and never killed anybody.

TomG said...

Tex had issues other than LSD or Manson or 60's. He was the 12 year old kid who got into a fight and flipped the fuck out and everyone said back up, that kid is crazy.

But he's paid the penalty. What's he in now? Mule Creek? Prison family left him.....what kind of life is that?

Don't get me wrong, I don't wish misery on any of my fellow human beings.....ordinary life is hard enough.

katie8753 said...

>>>Tom said: He was the 12 year old kid who got into a fight and flipped the fuck out and everyone said back up, that kid is crazy.>>>

Did I miss something Tom? What happened when he was 12?

TomG said...

No, you didn't miss anything.

I just thought maybe Tex was one of these adolescents that flipped out when scuffles broke out.

katie8753 said...

Oh. I think maybe he ran home to mommmmmy....LOL.

TomG said...

There are bad people who do bad things and I shrug all that off like a fly that bites my arm.

But there are also ordinary people who do bad things, and that has always fascinated me, as if I was lucky not to be one of them....as if it is all a razors edge, we fall on the right side or maybe the wrong side and the choice wasn't ours.

Ah, what the hell do I know?
How 'bout them Phillies!

ST. Circumstance said...

Here is what I love about what TomG said

"There are bad people who do bad things and I shrug all that off like a fly that bites my arm.

But there are also ordinary people who do bad things, and that has always fascinated me, as if I was lucky not to be one of them"..


This is the Tex quandry to me.

They should have been able to see Charlie coming. Tex was an average guy next door with credentials exactly like I had at his age when I myself made the trek out to southern California for probably all the same reasons...

I - in a million years- could never be like Charlie. we have to different backgrounds. But aside from geography- Tex was just like me... what made him go in such a different direction, and how lucky am I that things never deteriorated for me at that age to that point where I could get myself into that type of situation?? Obviously only a very few could go as far as he- but many end up in trouble nonetheless...

MrPoirot said...

They saw what they wanted to see in Charlie.
Charlie was no worse than any of the other Family but add them all up and the cummulative evil shook the world. By themselves they were all nothings. Bonnie was just a poor wall flower till she met Clyde. Together they terrified America.

sunset77 said...

MrPoirot mentioned "Bonnie and Clyde".

There are some definite similarities between Charles Manson and Clyde Barrow. They both lived incredibly recklessly and launched murderous rampages upon release from prison. Clyde Barrow thought nothing of blazing away with a Browning Automatic Rifle at police with his family with him. Charles Manson sent his family to break into peoples houses, to steal cars, and commit murder FOR him.

Prison often creates a deep seated all consuming hatred, and "revenge" is about all a man can think of when he gets out. Some men act on it.

"Buck" Barrow's wife Blanche lived until 1988. One of her relatives named Debbie Moss has a YouTube page and a small website about Blanche. Blanche hated her depiction in the 1967 movie, from what I've read, it was pretty inaccurate.

leary7 said...

Of course, that is the million dollar question.
If we accept Charlie as EVIL (either predestined by his DNA or shaped by a hell upbringing) then the question is what were all the others? Would they have done "evil" if not for Charlie? Or if not for drugs? Would TLB even have happened ten years later when the whole commune/free love thing had become passe?
We can talk about the origins and inevitability of Manson's evilness till the cows come home. And folk will still be talking about it 100 years from now.
The others? You gotta take em individually or at least in sub-groups. Probably lump Tex and Sadie and Pat together as "pre-disposed" to violence. Maybe through Clem in there. Bruce and Brenda???
I don't know. That is an endless debate.
But our interest probably has some of the "there but for the grace of God go I". If one has ever been wasted or drawn to alternative living it is hard not to project to how we would have reacted to being beamed up to Spahn Ranch circa 1968-69.

leary7 said...

Bonnie was married when she met Clyde and wore her wedding ring right to the end.
Blanche was a looker.