Sunday, August 5, 2012

JohnnySeattle writes:

Hey Lynryd,

I have a suggestion for a thread.  I wonder if you would consider something on Winnie Chapman?  I've often wondered about her.

The look on her face coming out of the courtroom with the crazy ass manson folks laughing in the background, suggests a person of great dignity and composure... that she was not going to let the murderers win.  She was also a victim. 
Vincent Bugliosi calls her 'quarrelsome' in his book.  Maybe she wouldn't toe the line he wanted, or maybe as an african american in the mid 60's, she had had her fill of the LAPD...

Anyway, Bugliosi goes out of his way to label her.  Any chance of doing a "whatever happened to"?  I assume she has passed away, but one wonders the stories she may have passed on to her family and friends.

For all his crazy talk, Garretson was clear that Winnie Chapman was a nice lady.

This picture of Ms Chapman tells a lot, and bothers me on a personal level.
Thanks Johnny!

67 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Johnny said:
"This picture of Ms Chapman tells a lot, and bothers me on a personal level".

Well said, Johnny.

The contrast between Ms Chapman's expression, and that of Squeaky and Watkins is palatable.

It's obvious, that Ms Chapman understands the full gravity of this situation... and she's wearing the stress and misery, on her face.
You can see it.

"The family" on the other hand... are behaving like nothing ever happened.

Quite a contrast.

I agree.
This photo, speaks a thousand words.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Brian is having Jason Freeman on his radio show tonight, for anyone interested.

Freeman is the grandson of Charles Manson.

http://starcityradio.com/tlbradio.html

Kimchi said...

Good topic! So little is known about her-

I read her trial testimony and it was very very short...she said she was nervous and anxious and wanted to get off the witness stand as soon as possible.

Poor thing, I would be the same way after seeing what she did.

leary7 said...

Or it could just be that she had the burrito at the court cafeteria.

leary7 said...

sorry, just being a wiseass. The poor woman did have a horrific experience that no one should suffer from. It would be interesting to know how it affected the rest of her life.
Years ago, while in grad school, I made a documentary called "Decades of Doubt" which looked at the lives of six people who were "involved" or directly affected by the JFK assassination. It is interesting to see how an event, especially a traumatic and dramatic one, can alter individual lives.
If one were to look at TLB that way, WInnie Chapman would be one person interesting to profile. WHo might be others?

johnnyseattle said...

Spot on Lynard
Thank you for this thread. She must have talked with family about this if only to relieve some of the stress. She must have had horrible dreams about this. She had been with Sharon Tate long enough to become attached to her and the upcoming baby.



Looking forward to Brian's show tonight.

PS: Leary7, I would love to catch your documentary and talk about it offline at some point. That sounds very interesting.

matt prokes said...

that goes for me too leary,i'd love to see that film.
you asked about jfk sites on the other thread whats going on with them...well its the same old song and dance really.i'm more of a lurker than anything else on those sites these days.
i read an interesting discussion on the z-film being altered.
on the face of it seems insane to think that could have happened. this guy had some interesting points but im still not buying into it.
as for winifred chapman its surprising how little info there is online about her life and death.
shes like a ghost.
cats site might have some info on her.

Kimchi said...

Me three Leary - I'd like to see it too...

When I visited Daley Plaza I was amazed at how small it really is...it looked so much bigger on film..

You knew an Oswald personally didn't you Leary? It would be interesting to hear the inside scoop and your assessment -

I'd like to see what Beauders knows about Ms. Chapman - she always has some good tidbits...

Marliese said...

Johnny said>>>>This picture of Ms Chapman tells a lot, and bothers me on a personal level.<<<<<


Just about the finest observation i've heard (or read!) anyone say about Winnie Chapman, Johnny. You are kind.

I've wondered about her for years, and no nothing. :)

Marliese said...

know nothing...about her. :)

How terrible she was called quarrelsome. Maybe they wouldn't listen to her, or wanted to put words in her mouth!

johnnyseattle said...

Marliese said...
know nothing...about her. :)

How terrible she was called quarrelsome. Maybe they wouldn't listen to her, or wanted to put words in her mouth!

August 5, 2012 6:36 PM

it does make a mind wonder a bit, eh? vincent bugliosi in his Helter Skelter book goes out of his way to label her that way. why? for what purpose? she was also a victim. and she had to carry those scars for the rest of her life. he didn't have to put that little adjective by her name and yet he chose to do so.
so yeah, makes a mind wonder....

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

If Kimchi and Marliese know little about Winifred Chapman... there's obviously little information circulating about her.
Kimchi and Marliese are two very observant ladies... and they don't miss a whole lot.

I'd say Beauders and Starship, are our next best hope. LOL

Although... MattP never ceases to amaze me with his information and insight, as well.
Believe me...
Matt's a helluva LOT sharper, than his "all small letters print", would initially suggest! LOL
He'll sneak-up on ya! LOL

Let's see what (if anything) emerges!

katie8753 said...

Thanks Johnny!!

Winifred Chapman disappeared in October of 1969. Her landlady called the police and reported her missing. Her things were still in her apartment.

She was later found, I think in November of 1969. When questioned, she said she was hiding because she was sick of the media always following her around and asking her questions about the murders.

I think she spent the rest of her life looking over her shoulder. She was truly a victim too.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Leary...

You have an open invitation, to post your entire documentary on this blog.

I'll make a thread for your movie, anytime!
Just say the word...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

...or Katie might just re-surface, and tell us everything we ever wanted to know about Chapman. LMAO!

katie8753 said...

Let's see if this link works. It's an article from helterskelterforum.com:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i53.tinypic.com/2eehr46.jpg&imgrefurl=http://helterskelterforum.com/viewtopic.php?f%3D22%26t%3D1095%26start%3D20&h=1469&w=416&sz=129&tbnid=KO8W3CIazpHTuM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=25&zoom=1&usg=__gCYpb7xzeuE7JwqJ7s0Zm9fI3ME=&docid=PyM8ndv5-KIh5M&sa=X&ei=6ggfUMqtCOqK2wXe64HQBg&ved=0CHMQ9QEwBw&dur=1619

Wow that's a long link!!! If it doesn't work I'll try to be more specific.

But for now, "my radio show" is on. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I listened to Brian's show tonight.

Jason Freeman seems like a decent guy.
He loves his wife, his work, and his God.
Ya can't go too wrong, with those priorities.
He doesn't seem overly hung-up on the Manson connection either... which is probably for the best.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Brian mentioned, that it was at this time in history, when Manson held-up the famous newspaper headline in court.
I'm referring of course, to the headline where the president declared Manson guilty.

I've always considered that a very shrewd move, on Manson's part.
Manson could have caused a mis-trial... and, I'm sure he was well-aware of that fact.

When the president of the nation, declares you guilty on the front of a newspaper... that's a pretty big deal... especially in those days.
Before internet communication... newspapers were a very powerful tool, and pimary source of information.

As I said... a shrewd move.

Manson's lawyer should have pushed harder, for a mis-trial.

It doesn't seem like the defense did a whole ot of anything, does it?

Kimchi said...

Lynyrd said:

----Manson's lawyer should have pushed harder, for a mis-trial.

It doesn't seem like the defense did a whole ot of anything, does it?----

They did - the State shut them down...

The judge ordered a voir dire of each juror and each said it did not impact them...so the judge ruled no mistrial...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Yes... but, the defense should have pushed even HARDER!!! LOLOL

Just kidding... : )

Thanks Kimchi!!

I know the judge pulled everyone outside... and the jurors all agreed, that it wouldn't effect their decision/thinking, etc.
I already knew that.

It just seems to me, that the whole incident was kinda "iced-over" way too quickly and easily, though.

The judge basically called the jurors outside, and asked:
"Are you still, good to go"?
The jurors replied:
"Yes".
And, that's it???

It all seems a bit underplayed, to me.

The president declared a defendant guilty, on the front of a newspaper!

Just my opinion....

I never heard the term "voir dire" though...
Good stuff! LOLOL

leary7 said...

yeah, Kimchi, I lived with his oldest daughter June for a few years. Wild time. She was as much a flipper as her father.
Thanks Lynyrd for the invite, and for the interest from you guys. I have been living a hobo life the last few years working with refugess so my stuff is scattered in four cities but I know I have several copies of the film somewhere though I never got around to putting it on the net (made in '82) I am technically retarded when it comes to net stuff but will make the effort.

On a side not, I just finished reading Grishom's 'The Innocent Man', his only non-fiction book. It just bogggles the mind how inept and morally corrupt the police in this country can be. Scares the crap out of ya. I guess even in my old age I am still naive because I operate on the basis if someone is a detective or such he must have some level of competancy and integrity.
It just ain't the case.

katie8753 said...

I don't know why Nixon would made such a statement to the press. How could he possibly have enough information on this case to make such a bold assessment?

If I had been a juror in this case and the judge asked me if that headline would sway my opinion, I would say absolutely not. Nixon wasn't a juror and his opinion doesn't matter.

I think if anything I would add that stunt to the long list of Charlie's stunts during this trial.

Mary said...

Interesting Leary. I would also be interested in hearing more about how your friend had to overcome the prejudices of being linked - by no fault of her own - to one of the most hated men in America. It would put in perspective what some of the children of the Manson gang has gone through...by no fault of their own, they are probably hunted down and used.

MrPoirot said...

leary7 said...


On a side not, I just finished reading Grishom's 'The Innocent Man', his only non-fiction book. It just bogggles the mind how inept and morally corrupt the police in this country can be. Scares the crap out of ya. I guess even in my old age I am still naive because I operate on the basis if someone is a detective or such he must have some level of competancy and integrity.
It just ain't the case.(end quote)

Poirot replies:

Shorty Shea's murder was due to police incompetency. The LASO stupidly raided the ranch with a misdated search warrant.

To compound matters the police report which Manson most likely got wind of had carelessly stated their info came from an "informant who had been staying at the ranch for ten days previos".

This virtually signed Shea's death warrant. Especially damning to Shea waas the way the deputies laid waste to the ranch and either destroyed or confiscated everything the Family had which sent the gang into a angry feeding frenzy against Shea.

The cops had accumulated enough evidence to put Charlie away yet blew it all by executing the raid on the WRONG DAY which set everyone free to go after Shea.

I don't think Squeaky was present when Spahn talked with Shorty about clearing the Family off the ranch as Spahn himself said she wasn't there then.

The Family learned of Shorty's informing on them from the police report not from Squeaky. It wasn't Frank Retz either who was the informant because Retz never stayed at the ranch. Shorty was the only one who matched the descripton in the police report.

It was police incompetency that got Shorty murdered.

revatron said...

The way i understood the police report, the informant had been at the ranch a total of ten days since July 1, 1969.
Wouldn't Shorty have been there longer than that?
I agree with your comments on the police. Charlie's parole violations alone should have had him locked up long before any of the murders.

Shorty's murder seems the craziest to me. I don't know what his living arrangements were, but I do know he was married. Wouldn't his wife be expecting him home? You'd think they would have killed her too.
How long after Shorty's murder did they split?

leary7 said...

Man, if TLB had happened a decade or two later some lawyer would have hipped Shorty's wife into filing a lawsuit against both the cops and I believe Spahn ranch. But as Mr. Dill has said it was the 60's and civil suits were fairly rare and Shorty's wife was an African-American stripper.
NObody seems to have any info on Winnie so I doubt anyone has anything on Mrs. Shea, but wouldn't it be a trip if she were still alive and could file suit against Manson and Clem and the cops and such. That would be one helluva hootnanny trial.

MrPoirot said...

Shorty's marriage was on the fritz. The wife didn't report him missing for days. Shorty was living a transciancy lifestyle which he hoped would become more situated since Frank Retz had offered him a guard job for #75 a week. Shorty was also looking forward to a movie role. Shorty was trying to clean up the ranch and get his life together.

leary7 said...

Hey Mary...yes, Junie was a trip. She was born in Russia and came over with her parents when Lee reversed his defection to come home. She had just turned two I think, and her sister Rachel was just a month old when their dad was killed.
Junie wasn't what you would expect. She had no memories of her father, and grew up in a small Texas town using her stepfathers last name. She was extremely strong willed and had high self-esteem. She was captain of her high school basketball team, vice president of the Baptist Student Union and vice-president of her sororiety at UT.
But like a said, she was also a flipper, a Jeykl and Hyde personality like her dad. A decade after we broke up she did an interview with some NY magazine in which she told about five provable lies about me in one paragraph. I wanted to sue for libel but was overseas when it happened and just didn't get it together.
I have a short story in my collection about the time Junie and I hopped the fence at midnight to visit her father's grave that she had never been to. If you want I can email it to you.
Yeah, I agree with you, it is an interesting topic - people who have to live with infamy. Manson's son by Mary Brunner seems like a really together guy. But you wonder about folk like Bundy's daughter or the Boston Strangler's kids and such.

leary7 said...

I am curious, how do you all come to terms with the discrepancy between Barbara Hoyt's assertion of hearing Shorty's screams in the middle of the night and the testimony of his killers that it happened in the morning was it?
I suspect most folk just dismiss Hoyt.

MrPoirot said...

Hoyt may be accurate. She's never changed her story and has explicitly stated in writing to the parole bd that the killers were lying about where Shorty was murdered.

Mary said...

yes, leary...please email me the short story. I actually read that interview in the paper - but read another one where she talks about her friend that hopped a fence with her where she states how protective he was - now that I know she is talking about the same person...you can see she made an about-face...quiet interesting. thanks for sharing!

Mary said...

marylou446@aol.com

leary7 said...

yeah Mary, the Times interview really pissed me off. She blatantly lied about several things. She claimed my parents would not let her stay in their home which was bullshit. My parents were Boston Irish Catholics and big time JFK fans but they welcomed her and actually let us live in the family beach cottage for several months. June should remember that as it is where, forgive my crassness, she lost her virginity.
Everything she said about me in that interview was a provable lie, it was like she was daring me to fight. Junie could create her own reality and believe it, much like her father and our man Manson. I will dig up that short story and send it to ya tomorrow.

katie8753 said...

If Ms. Chapman was being "quarrelsome" after being questioned by police, I certainly don't blame her.

Maybe she thought they were insinuating that she had something to do with the murders.

Sharon had asked her to stay the night at Cielo Drive on August 8th. I'm assuming that Ms. Chapman didn't have an A/C, and Sharon thought it would be cooler in the hills.

She declined....but how many times did she think back about what might have happened if she had said yes. Would she have ended up as ripped-up fly food on the lawn like the others?

She worked for Sharon & Roman while they were at Patty Duke's house, and I'll bet that she thought a lot of Sharon.

I can certainly understand how upset she must have been, probably not wanting to get involved at all. And perhaps fearing for her life every day after that.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mary...

Did you get that copy of "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" yet?

Just curious, what you though of it, so far...

Dilligaf said...

Katie,

When Richard Nixon made that comment, he was giving a speech regardng law & order, and made referrence to the case in an off-hand comment. The press picked up on this and made it out to be bigger than it was.

LS,

It has been my experience that most jurors take their jobs very serious, and would not be influenced by such comments. Though we look at politics today as being very contentious and divided, things have not changed much. In the late 60's, President Nixon had his supporters and his detractors, but much like today, most people did not let a president do their thinking for them. That is another example of the media giving a president far too much credit, in my opinion.

After the voir dire, the judge was satisfied that the jury was not affected. Had someone wanted off the jury, that would have been a great excuse, but by then, I believe the jurors had settled into their role and were being as concientious and responsible as they could.

Lastly, I have always said that Mrs. Chapman was a victim of the Wooly Hophead as well, it just took years for her to die. To realize how close one could have been to being another victim of such a savage and brutal act is something that many would not handle well, with the impact manifesting itself in many potential acts or illnesses later on.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Dilligaf.

Thanks!

I intentionally went a bit "over-the-top" with my second post, for a touch of comic value.

You're right.
If any jurors wanted out... that would have been their free pass.
None of them took the opportunity to leave... so, I guess they were quite serious about the task at hand.

Either that... or, they were doggedly determined to see things through to the end... in order to get that Wooly Hophead jailed, according to the president's wishes! LOLOL

I'm just kidding...

You ROCK Dilligaf!

---------------------

Dilligaf said:
"President Nixon had his supporters and his detractors, but much like today, most people did not let a president do their thinking for them".

Good point!

I've only liked 3 presidents in my entire life. LOL
Funny... but true.

katie8753 said...

>>>Dill said: Katie,

When Richard Nixon made that comment, he was giving a speech regardng law & order, and made referrence to the case in an off-hand comment. The press picked up on this and made it out to be bigger than it was.>>>

Thanks Dill. I don't know anything about the "birth" of this comment. You've shedded a lot of light on it. I was wondering why he would make such a bodacious comment.

>>>Lastly, I have always said that Mrs. Chapman was a victim of the Wooly Hophead as well, it just took years for her to die. To realize how close one could have been to being another victim of such a savage and brutal act is something that many would not handle well, with the impact manifesting itself in many potential acts or illnesses later on.>>>

Yes indeed. I can't imagine being a housekeeper in 1969 doing housework for "people with money", and showing up for work one day and finding them all slaughtered throughout the house and yard.

I would imagine that her life was never the same. She was treated for shock initially, but as time wore on, I'm sure there was no real treatment for her maladies.

She actually went into hiding because the press was in her face all the time. Imagine that. I can't.

I think about how poor Stephen Parent was just there at the wrong time. Imagine if Ms. Chapman had stayed the night.

Even Garretson has mental issues because of this. Think about how Ms. Chapman felt.

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: I intentionally went a bit "over-the-top" with my second post, for a touch of comic value.>>>

Talk about comic relief....

The great Winston Churchill said:

Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”


HA HA HA.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Well... it's almost that time.

Get yer comments in quick!

Last Call!!!
AHahahahaha

MrPoirot said...

It was a mistake for Charlie to flash the newspaper quote by Nixon to the jurors because it ended up making the judge very, very mad at all the courtroom lawyers on both sides. So when Stovitz made an offhand comment to newsmedia after being told to shutup, it led to Stovitz being dismissed and Bug being appointed chief prosecutor.
Bug was Charlie's worst nightmare.

Mary said...

Yes, Lynyrd - I did get the book but have not started it yet. I am wrapped up in The Fifty Shades triolgy...yes, trash but trash is easy on the brain sometimes :) I will start it after I am done and let you know.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

No rush...

I was just curious.

sunset77 said...

So far as the "Nixon Declares Manson Guilty" paper is concerned, I read somewhere that either Robert Hendrickson or Phil Kaufman helped smuggle it into the courtroom. Both men had contact with Manson during the trial. I'm guessing someone on the outside handed the paper to an unsuspecting lawyer and said something like "Charlie wants to see what the news is saying about him".

A YouTube vid says that Charile was held in a jail block all to himself, I think on the 7th floor. That's because he would pass a string out the cell window to the girls below that would send things up, like drugs and I think a hacksaw blade.

Cameras weren't allowed in courtrooms in the 1970's, sketch artists were allowed though. A video of some of the sketches depicting Manson's antics can be seen Here.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Sunset. I've read about several people who might have been responsible for delivering that newspaper. Those 2 are certainly likely suspects. It would be interesting to know who actually did it.

Sunset, I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to provide links for us to follow and enjoy. Much appreciated!!

starship said...

Very interesting discussion. I think both Katie and Dil make good points about Mrs. Chapman being another victim. A really great book (novel) which illustrates poignantly how you don't have to be a direct victim to be victimized is Wally Lamb's THE HOUR I FIRST BELIEVED. I know I've mentioned it before, but it is good.

I think Mrs. Chapman probably resented having to testify...the media circus, facing the killers, and she probably had to take time off from work and not get paid too...so I certainly understand why she looks like that in the picture. Also, since seeing THE HELP I am not certain at all how she may have felt about the Polanskis...it was just her job, perhaps nothing more.

candy and nuts said...

hi katie nice to see ....I truly wish we could make amends on things my email is altravioletsky@gmail.com if you feel up to please email me

candy and nuts said...

as far as this topic how else would Lynette look,,,,,,smiling well,,,yes oblivious to a witness,,, yes if she was

katie8753 said...

Candy, it's all good. Don't worry about it.

Peace!! :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

It's all good Candy... don't sweat it.

MrPoirot said...

Winnie was an absolutly key witness in convicting the killers because when she cleaned the door that Pat's fingerprints were found on it was as good as a video tape of the murders. Cleaning the door was more damning to the killers than Bug's Helter Skelter motive. In fact when Winnie told how she had cleaned the fingerprint stained door it was no longer necessary to even prove a motive. Winnie pinned the killers to the Cielo murder, Bug though was smart enough not to name his book "The Maid Cleaned The Door".

katie8753 said...

Hi Starship!

>>>I think Mrs. Chapman probably resented having to testify...the media circus, facing the killers, and she probably had to take time off from work and not get paid too>>>

Those are good points. I'm sure it was the last thing on earth that she wanted to do. Not to mention she probably had to shell out extra money for bus fare to the trial location.

>>>Also, since seeing THE HELP I am not certain at all how she may have felt about the Polanskis...it was just her job, perhaps nothing more.>>>

That could be but I think Sharon treated her as more than a servant. She was concerned about her comfort that fatal night. Also, she followed Sharon to Cielo Drive to work for her there, which I think was a further bus ride for her.

She probably didn't much of Roman though. LOL.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P said: In fact when Winnie told how she had cleaned the fingerprint stained door it was no longer necessary to even prove a motive.>>>

I'm not sure what you mean by that Mr. P.

One thing I've always wondered about was we know LAPD had Tex's fingerprints from the belladonna arrest, and they had Pat's fingerprints from the Spahn Ranch raid. Since Pat's & Tex's fingerprints were found at Cielo Drive, the LAPD should have been able to determine two of the killers' identities long before Susan started blabbing to her cell mates.

MrPoirot said...

Katie if Winnie cleaned the door on Wednesday and Pat's fingerprint was found Saturday then it is as if we have Pat punching a time clock at Cielo.

Motive is no longer needed. The prosecution has definitive proof that Pat was there AFTER Wednednesday.

katie8753 said...

>>>Motive is no longer needed. The prosecution has definitive proof that Pat was there AFTER Wednednesday.>>>

I know that, but how does that prove motive? We STILL don't know the motive.....

CarolMR said...

The prosecution NEVER has to prove motive, only guilt.

katie8753 said...

Hi Carol!!!

You're exactly right!!! :)

CarolMR said...

Hi, Katie!

katie8753 said...

Hi Carol!!! Good to see you!!! :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

((((((((((CAROL))))))))))

CarolMR said...

Hi, Lynyrd!

beauders said...

wow, the comment section is still open! according to my research mrs. chapman worked for polanski and tate for one year and made $200.00 a week. after finding the bodies were found she was taken to the ucla medical center to medically calm her down.

beauders said...

at some point october, 69 she disappeared. she wasn't found for four weeks. the police searches for her, as well as the bill baker agency and supersleuth evelyn johnson. her landlady mamie white reported her missing on 10/13/69. white reported that chapman was "terribly upset" in the weeks following the murders. chapman's sister reported she was concerned as they spoke everyday and chapman had expressed concern for her life and then disappeared.

beauders said...

she was eventually found and testified at the trials.
sadly after the trials chapman,
"...turned to drink,
became unreliable and
could not keep a job.
frittered away her
savings and was poor
and destitute when
she died."
lynyrd i got your email and will get a hold of you this weekend with some idea's.

fiona1933 said...

leary, sounds like your film is similar to the book "The Hour I First Believed" by Wally Lamb, in which a school nurse is present in the library during the Columbine massacre, hiding in a cupboard. She develops PTSD and whole chains of events are set in motion. Is life utterly random, does it work like chaos theory, or is there an unseeable plan behind?

fiona1933 said...

I have read Electric Kool Aid Acid Test! It's interesting, although it is very dated and the experimental style makes some of it nearly unreadable. I was re-reading it just the other day and wondering what Kesy's group would have made of Manson's. What if they'd come together? The Pranksters didn't go in for all that group sex. Wonder how many Pranksters would have changed to the Spahn scene?

It's also illuminating to read "Off The Road" Neal Cassady's wife, Carolyn Cassady wrote about what was going on with the women in Neal's life. While he was running round with Kerouac and Kesey, Carolyn was left to raise their children with no money. Neal even took their savings, blew it on a car, told Carolyn it was really for her, then took off to Denver to see his first wife LuAnn. This was the real 'holy primitive' Cassady of the Pranksters, a total sociopath.
He told Carolyn that he felt under pressure from the Pranksters to 'perform', to be this sort of natural wild child, talking "on three levels at once' which sounded like gibberish but "made perfect sense" if you listened. Does that sound like anyone we know? Too bad Neal and Charlie never met. In fact Charlie never seemed to meet anyone of his own charisma level.

As for Barbara Hoyt, has anyone considered that she may have really heard screams, just mistaken them for Shorty's? Perhaps someone else died that night.

Margery McCardell said...

I cant find much of anything on Winifred Chapman on line. There was a publication of her south central LA apt house address and it really was grim....not a good neighborhood, a tiny place. There was a comment that maybe she didn't have AC....so Sharon asked her to stay over.....of COURSE she didn't have AC......not until much later did the cielo drive house have Ac either. But it was higher up and had breezes and less smog than Mrs chapmans place. Most houses in LA don't have AC or at least didn't until the advent of global warming and rising temps recently. The poor woman had to take a bus across town and then either walk or get a cab for at least the last 3 miles to Sharons house, and the same trek back home, 5 days a week. That is what poverty looks like. Mrs chapman Im sure had a rough life.When Sharon and her jerk husband went to Europe in March of 1969 and sublet to folger and her boyfriend the environment around the residence got very seedy with a lot of parties, drugs, naked swimming etc etc...but especially low rent people..Im sure Mrs Chapman saw and put up with a lot. Im surprised nobody ever tried to interview her for more details. She s rumoured to have had a nervous breakdown of some sort after and the events of 8/69 which traumatized her a great deal.