Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Lynyrd brings you some explosive shit...
John Irwin Friedman, AKA "Partee"
#1) He was friends with Charles Manson long before the murders
#2) He is a professional artist, who drew illustrations of Manson
#3) His son ("John Jr") was "babysat" by "The Family" at Spahn's 
#4) His son was one of the children, arrested in the 8/16/69 Raid
#5) *He raised Sandra Good's son, with his wife Holly!
#6) He was the masked "mystery guest" on Geraldo's "Family Reunion" show

LET'S GET TO IT, SHALL WE?!

Exhibit "A"
John "Masked" on the Geraldo Show, with Ansom13 and TJ.
John "Unmasked" on LSB3.COM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exhibit "B"
John Friedman's Illustrations of Manson

"Charlie at Spahn" By John Friedman
The original Piece is owned by Michael at Backporch Tapes
Illustration #2
"In this photo, there is a street of Victorian Houses.
 Manson is depicted in the window of his Haight Cole street Apartment writing Music"
by John Friedman.
Close-Up View of Manson depicted in window, by Friedman
Illustrations Courtesy of Michael from Backporch Tapes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exhibit "C"
A letter from Manson.
Charlie remembers taking care of "Little John Friedman Jr."
at Spahn's.
The message transcribed by Lynyrd: 
"A picture from a friend of mine John Friedman. 
You remember him, we kept his kid for him "little John". 
His kid J grown up and reflects strong"...
COURTESY OF BACKPORCH TAPES
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exhibit "D"
"Little John Friedman Jr.", is listed as one of the children detained during the 8/16/69 Raid at Spahn's.







































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Exhibit "E"
Friedman's Family, including Ivan Pugh (Sandra Good's Son)
The Whole Photo... "Click" to Expand 
OK... "Here's where it gets tricky", as Starship says! LOL
I gathered the information regarding "Ivan" aka "Bucky" from VERY reliable sources.
 John "Partee" Friedman and Holly Feeney raised Sandra Good's son... Ivan Pugh.
Ivan calls Holly "mom".
"That's a fact Jack!"

I'm sharing this information, as a courtesy, to all TLB enthusiasts.
I can't PROVE it to you here... and if you don't believe me...
that's totally cool... I understand.
The photo is labeled really funky by Friedman (kinda inaccurate)... and he gives all his kids really weird nicknames like "Bucky" and "Hucky". 
In fact... thay all have like 10 names... that's how artists are.
It's confusing as all shit.
Just take my word for it... that's the dude... Ivan Pugh... Sandra Good's son.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exhibit "F"
The Whole Story.
John "Partee" Friedman, Self Portrait.

“John” was born Johnny Irwin Friedman. He was a friend of Charlie’s for many years, although it hasn’t been disclosed when or where they met. John was a noted artist in the Santa Rosa Art Community and traveled the world. He married in the early 1960’s to a lady by the name of Inga, had 3 children with he,r but she was killed in a traffic accident in San Francisco in the mid 60’s. Soon after, he met and married a lady named Holly. It was about this time that he changed his name to “Partee”. It is known he also had a partner by the name of Windy with whom he had more children (according to a website which is no longer active).  John lived a mostly communal lifestyle.

One of his children (John Jr.) was taken into custody during the Spahn Ranch Raid of August 16, 1969. (See Arrest Sheet List for "detained children" above).  Charlie and family used to babysit "Little John" at the ranch. (See Manson's letter above).

Friedman married Holly Feeney in 1964 ...they lived in the San Francisco area.  They raised Ivan Pugh when Sandy went to prison.

Age: 74 years, Partee passed away in Santa Rosa, CA on September 30, 2008. Dear father of Bianca Kolonusz-Partee (Thomas), JJ Friedman, Tripper Friedman, Michael Friedman, Sunnie Friedman and Bucky Pugh (Caterina). Partee is also survived by his brother, Stan Friedman (Mary) and their family as well as many many wonderful friends here and around the world. Partee was born in New York on April 25, 1934 to Harry and Helen Friedman. He worked as an artist; painting, drawing and making etchings.

"My work is the center of my life. I have lived with many people in many circumstances, and I have always done this work," Partee.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exhibit "G"
The Original Geraldo "Family Reunion" Show,
where Friedman, wore his Mask.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exhibit "H"
 JOHN "PARTEE" FRIEDMAN'S
FABULOUS ART PIECES!
PLEASE "CLICK" BELOW, TO VIEW MORE!


 


184 comments:

bobby said...

Wow, Lynrd. Great new thread.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

This thread is the result of months worth of research and sweat.

I had these materials (and more) in about 12 different folders. LOL

This project was researched and compiled by a few people (not just me)... some of which would like to remain anonymous.
Those "silent partners"... you know who you are... My Sincere THANKS!
You ROCK!

Also...
A Very Special Thanks to Michael from Backporch Tapes, who is always so generous with his collection.
His materials really aided in connecting the dots for us.
His stuff puts the "finishing touch" on everything!

I sincerely hope everyone gets some enjoyment from this work.

Peace!

Thanks to All who participated!

katie8753 said...
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LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"My work is the center of my life. I have lived with many people in many circumstances, and I have always done this work,"
John "Partee" Friedman.

leary7 said...

Bobby beat me to the punch. I swear that is what I was going to write, just a simple - Wow.
This is some serious great research and writing. So many questions and things to ponder. Thanks Lynyrd. you certainly earned your exhorberant salary today. We may have to put the franchise tag on you.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Bob and Leary!

Mary said...

Two awesome stories in one week...y'all are hot this week! No pun intended since the east coast is scorching.

katie8753 said...
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LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Mary!

andy said...

great post, thanks. i allways wondered who that guy john was from the "family reunion." Anyone ever hear of him mentioned by anyone in the family? i dont recall ever hearing/reading anything. As for how he felt after the murders, well he couldnt have felt that bad since he did that awful jeraldo show

Bessie said...

Hi guys - this is really interesting information. I too always wondered who the masked family member was on Geraldo. This is not a name I have come across before in the books I have read. Thanks for sharing this.

bobby said...

Leary, I hope my question didnt come ff as crase I know you had a fight with cancer then I hear about the heart thing. I do hope all is getting better and was curious if one contributed to the other. Either way the main thing is the hope & prayer full recovery is in the cards for you. with love.
Bobby

katie8753 said...
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TomG said...

I thought you were great on that radio show and it was a fun hour. Sorry that some people decided to become ugly, although that's part of the dark side, which I believe mostly good people are here to explore....

As Modest Mouse might say, we all float on okay.....ANYWAY!

beauders said...

john friedman was the guy who manson traded a psychedic tent to for the back part of spahn ranch, on an acid trip. it makes sense that sandra's child ended up with this family as it was sandra who knew someone at spahn ranch and led the family there. it must have been friendman who she knew. now the question is did sandra give ivan to this man or did the state of california take him (which is what i heard)and put him up for adoption and this family offered to take him? good work lynyrd, this is new to me.

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...
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MrPoirot said...

John Friedman is a Go-To kinda guy. When Sandra was sent off to hard tme for ten years it was John Friedman who stepped in and provided a stable and loving home foe Sandra's son whom I doubt she ever gave a thought to.

Kudos to hard working family guys like John Friedman. There were heroes in the Manson saga afterall.

John Friedman should feel proud. I can say the same thing about Friedman's wife. Bravo!

MrPoirot said...

Friedman was very close to Charlie's age. They were the oldest at the Ranch. Sadly it seems that life in prison contributes to longevity. Charlie finally outlives Friedman.

lurch said...

So Friedman was the guy who got the tent? Always wondered who Charlie gave it to and what ever happened to it. I'm guessing one of his kids might have it?

Bessie said...

Does anyone know if Sandy ever retained contact with Ivan? I wonder what he thinks of her now?

Mary said...

Okay, this may be a very stupid question - but Sandy Good's son's last name is Pugh? He isn't Joel Pugh's son, is he? Is this just the name she gave him because she took it as one of her aliases?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Mary.

No... Ivan is not Joel Pugh's son.

I'm told Bobby Beausoleil is actually Ivan Pugh's biological father... and, I've seen pretty convincing evidence.

As for how Ivan ended-up with the name "Pugh"... I'm not quite sure, but I think you're on the right track.

Kimchi would know for sure...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I'm a little behind.

Hello to Bob, Leary, Andy, Bessie, Tom, Beauders, Poirot and Learch!

I hope, I didn't miss anyone.

-----------------------------

Andy...

I used to enjoy reading your comments at the Colonel's a long time ago.
You had some great input, on several occasions, over there.
Hope to see more of you.

-----------------------------

Beauders...

Thanks for your input, regarding the tent.
That's why blogs are great.
Information gets added to the topic, by several contributors.
Sharing information (of course) is the real purpose of blogging.
Great job!

If you'd like to add any information from this thread to your book... just give me a nod, in the index.
Thats:
"L-y-n-y-r-d"
LOLOL

------------------

Poirot...

I agree.
In researching this topic... I came to really like this guy Friedman.
He's a down-to-earth guy, and very generous in his own way.

----------------------------

bobby said...

I came to really like this guy Friedman

and he was very fond of Charlie>

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...
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beauders said...

from what i understand sandra gave her son the last name against joel pugh's wishes. she asked and he said no, but she did what she wanted.

katie8753 said...
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ST. Circumstance said...

Hey all...

Yak know I watched this Geraldo family reunion once a long time ago and had no idea who any of those people on the panel were- so I didn't really pay much attention.....

It was also before I really understood anything about the case.

Now I know who all of those people are and so this time I paid close attention and here are my impressions...

Like myself the first time I watched it- the audience is looking at these people- and correctly judging them as losers.. Geraldo the ultimate grandstanding asshole is not really interested in doing anything other than make the audience smirk and laugh at his one liners. The audience takes the bait. They are more concerned with bashing than listening, and they have much anger and hatred for the right reasons- but are just simply to ignorant to the facts to understand that most of what they are being told by TJ and Partee are telling them is true...

I dont think they would have cared, and that is the problem. Most dont care if Charlie or any of the others actually DID the crimes- they all look and act like trouble so lets get rid of them all...

The mob rules mentality in full view here... cheering each other on wildly while putting down the animals..

The dopey look, and filthy dress. They slow way of talking. Damn the facts- these people never had a chance...

Shame Gerlado- Journalism used to be a search for the truth and reporting facts...

That is not what this is...

But we all know who he is and what he does and that's why you can scarcely find him anymore on TV- they only roll him out once and awhile on Fox when O'reilly has nobody left to yell at...

Substance- Tex came back to the ranch with the money from Crowe - didn't tell them what happened and then went camping. Call came after the fact and Charlie/TJ went over to save the girl...

The only difference here is Tex says he told Charlie what went down and Charlie sent him to hide out...

If TJ is telling the truth- TEX is seriously the most chicken shit weasel bastid that ever walked the face of the earth.. He left his own fiance to face trouble to run off and lie to his friends leaving them to face trouble to go off and hide???

its a pretty weak move either way...

This guy Partee does come across as the most rational person on the whole show... I understand his reasons for the mask- and he did come across as fairly reasonable.

look he is Charlies age- only so many nice things I can say about a guy who admittedly hung around a dirty ranch to try and screw young girls,, and we all know the rest of the unmoral things and underage sex/drug-use that went on there. He seemed smart enough to know better.. you just cant run with this pack and be considered a completely regular guy in my opinion... He was close

He made sense, and he seems to be a very decent type of guy...

he picked the wrong forum to explain his situation...

they all did... nobody was going to give them a chance here..

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Saint… Great post as always.

I agree totally.

Granted, these folks “are what, they are”… but under the right conditions, some facts could have emerged.

Instead… what we have here, is Geraldo and the audience functioning as an angry, jeering mob.
No true learning, could ever be accomplished in this environment.

It’s obvious, that Geraldo’s goal was not true research.
Geraldo’s goal here, was to entertain his tabloid viewers with a “horse and pony” freak show… end of story.

It was a missed opportunity.
I think Partee and TJ, could have made much better use of these 60 minutes, if given half a chance.
They weren't given any chance, at all.
These guests were simply targets, from minute one.

One must also remember:
The folks in the audience, likely knew nothing about the case.
Again... not conducive to anything productive.
Geraldo’s next show, was probably about rampant obesity, among housewives.
The folks in the audience, probably hit this topic randomly, and by chance.
If the “Manson reunion” was bumped a week back… they probably would have been viewing a program on some crooked politician.

A missed opportunity…
That’s the only way, you can view this hour, regardless of one’s feelings about these folks.

If the audience was filled with TLB bloggers (such as ourselves), and the host was someone serious… such as Charlie Rose… this could have been very productive.

leary7 said...

Hey Bobby, illnesses not related, but it is funny how when the body starts to go it is like an old jalopy, first the transmission, then the starter etc etc. A lifetime of indulgence and excessiveness certainly accelerates the process.
Thanks for the kind words - you're one of the good guys. Funny, how many decent and caring folk one finds on a Manson blog. But if you have quality people at the top like Lynyrd and Katie then other good people come around. It is a tribal thing.

I liked this guy John. He did seem to have a reasonableness to him. You gotta wonder, if Sandra heard of his passing, if she might have contemplated attending the funeral. It's gettin to be that time when Family members are going to be dropping. If someone like Mary Brunner passed away in Wisconsin, would any of her former "sisters" pay their respects? Would the tabloids and such stake it out? I doubt it. Now Charlie's funeral would be a different story. I still hope Manson has enough audacity in him to demand a big and public funeral. It would be a happening as they used to say. Maybe Lynyrd could reserve us a special pew.

katie8753 said...
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leary7 said...

One of my silly "what ifs", but if CM did have a funeral, who amongst the Fmaily would attend?
Cappy for sure. I'd bet on Gypsy. Would Squeaky be allowed or is she still on probation and its restrictions? Sandy and her man would be a coin flip. Nancy would be an interesting guess, I'm gonna say no. And of course no with Ruth Ann and several others like Ella Jo and such. Debra Tate might show just to piss off the Col.
Manson always seemed to have a great sense of theatre. Wouldn't it be cool if he had just one last performance left in him - entertaining us in death.

Mary said...

Saint - I understand what you are saying...but the characters also showed up to be characters...I don't think they went on the Geraldo show to be serious and seriously talk about the case. If Geraldo had attempted, I don't think we would have found out much of anything - otherwise these people would have sought out actual journalists to tell there story. They dressed the part they wanted to play and played up their foolishness.

Has any of the manson follwers (not the ones in prison) ever given a credible interview? They only seems to show up on shows that sensationalize the situation and play the part everyone expects them to play. How can we ever really learn from these jokers when this is the type of forum they pick to tell their story.

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...
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Mary said...

it seems that most of these jokers are either distancing themselves and trying to blend into society - or still playing the foolishness that they always did for their 15 minutes of fame

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mary said:
"the characters also showed up to be characters...I don't think they went on the Geraldo show to be serious and seriously talk about the case"....
"They dressed the part they wanted to play and played up their foolishness".


I regards to Ansom13... I agree with you Mary.
She did "dress the part", and was a "follower" by most definitions.

One could arguably make the same claim of TJ.
He dressed the part... and was by most definitions a follower.

Their lives (predominantly) "revolved" around Manson... to an unhealthy (and unusual) extent.
(For lack of a better way of expressing it).

As I said... I agree with you.

In regards to John, specifically... I disagree.
He dressed in normal street clothes... and I sincerely believe, he went there to talk seriously.

John describes himself as a "friend", not a "follower"... and I personally believe that to be true.

The "kids" were most obviously "followers" at the ranch.
No argument there.
John was older, and was very much, his own man.

John was obviously very supportive of Manson... but, I really don't think his life demonstrated him as a "follower" in the truest sense... any more, than he followed anyone else.

My two cents...

I would have loved to see a "one on one" between John, and Charlie Rose... without all the hoopla, and interruptions.

John had a legitimate career and family... and that's probably why, he never did further interviews.
That's also why, I don't view him, as a follower.
I believe he viewed Manson as an equal at best... but, certainly not his leader.

Again... my humble opinion, after studying this man, at good length.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

If anyone has sent me an email recently... please be patient.

My email is quite simply... all f#cked-up.
It keeps crashing.
I may have to get a new email altogether... when, I have time to work on that...

For those who sent-in thread ideas recently... I DID receive them.
Your contributions are MUCH appreciated.
I will use your submissions, in the future.

I'm communicating this here, because, (as I said)... my email is "on the fritz".

PEACE!

Mary said...

Lynyrd - you obviously did a lot of research on this man...so I will have to give this one to you.

However, Geraldo was (and still is) known as a bit of a joke and his talk show was very sensational - as all where back in the 80's/early 90's...remember how Oprah used to have outrageous stories until she said enough is enough and then started having more intelligent discussions...

anyway, I cannot believe that anyone who went on Geraldo's show was expecting a serious interview...and his mask was a bit of a joke...so ONLY from what I have seen of him - and it was only this show before you published this thread - he fit in with the rest. But as I said, I will have to believe you in your opinion because it is much more educated than mine.

Mary said...

we all take misteps in life - I believe him appearing on this show was a massive mistep.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mary said:
"we all take misteps in life - I believe him appearing on this show was a massive mistep".

I agree... and I'm quite certain, John would agree also.

Trust me... this guy John, went to pretty good lengths to shield his family from this stuff.
That's why, no one has ever heard of this guy before. LOL
He lived a very independent life, and (to my knowledge) steered clear of any "public Manson stuff", following this show.

I'm also sure, that when John first met Manson... he never expected things to end in murders.
A human's mind, simply doesn't work that way.

I could die in a car accident, every time I enter my vehicle.
But... I certainly don't go through life expecting to die, every time, I get into my car.
OK... it's kind of a strange (not exactly parallel) analogy... but, you know what I mean. LOL

I'm not saying this guy John was the greatest, most noble man to ever walk the earth.
"It is, what it is".
But... I do think (all things considered), he was a pretty good guy
Again... if you know, what I mean. LOL

Mary you ROCK!
Your input, is always a pleasure!
So glad, we're seeing more of you!

starship said...

Wow, Lynyrd, it looks like you have out eviled ole Liz herself....

katie8753 said...

Mary I agree with you AND Lynyrd.

On the one hand, anyone who would go on Geraldo's show is obviously seeking out cheap sensationalism.

But on the other hand, this guy John may have been hoping it would turn into something he could seriously discuss. Unfortunately, as St. pointed out, Geraldo was smirking and cracking jokes to make the audience laugh, so any seriousness was tossed out of the window.

And as you defined it: "a massive mistep" on John's part.

ST. Circumstance said...

I hear ya Mary...

Hope all is well :)

MrPoirot said...

Mary said...
Saint - I understand what you are saying...but the characters also showed up to be characters(end quote)

Poirot replies:

Then they get their identity from Charlie. They suffer from a lack of identity. Remember Paul Crockett told the cops that all of them thought alike. They were all Charlie.

MrPoirot said...

The "devotees" appear to seperate Charlie from the murders. The audience bashes them for doing that. Most all interviews are like that. Remember how Tom Snyder laughed at Paul Watkins. Even in Watkin's book he said he got tired of no one making any effort to listen to him. It was like being the subject of a stoning.

Carol McChesny seems to be the one that is angriest. She is obviously a major head job and any negative words about Charlie turn her face into stone.

Bessie said...

I would give anything to see a proper Manson family reunion now. It would be so interesting to hear what they think of it all now, and the reasons for their behaviour back then. That will never happen though, sadly.

ST. Circumstance said...

Ahmen Bessie...

the price I would pay to sit in the audience for that...

katie8753 said...

>>>Bessie said: I would give anything to see a proper Manson family reunion now. It would be so interesting to hear what they think of it all now, and the reasons for their behaviour back then.>>>

Bessie that WOULD be something to watch for sure!!!

Just not on the Geraldo show. LOL.

ST. Circumstance said...

"Running on Empty"

A brief review of the life of Charles "Tex" Watson...

Hello friends let me introduce you to my favorite scumbag of all time Tex Watson...

Tex was a runner... boy could he run. Started at a young age when he was a running back in football, and later became a star runner and hurdler on the track team...

it seemed as a youngster he could have just about ran himself anywhere he wanted...

but then he was sent off to college and when away from any type of discipline or restraint... it seems he started for the very first time to run into trouble...

he participated in a fraternity prank. He then embarrassed himself and his family- for he was related to members of law enforcement and the attorney community...

not good

so he responded by going with his go to move- he ran...

to California...

not a bad time to get there as it turns out :)

and he had a decent family behind him- so he had a few things others did not- a few bucks- a reliable ride..

but then the life kinda took over and the fun started and things changed again...

from one party to another until one day the money ran out and the rent couldn't get paid, and the business wasn't working.... A real Man would have settled down and got serious about life at this juncture...

but we know how our hero will respond by now dont we??

he ran again.

This time he fled to the underground world. Easy enough to understand- he met a famous rock Star, and certainly nobody could blame him for getting into that scene. Free rent - free love and free drugs- what to run from here??

well - you know things have a strange way of turning out- and would you believe it...

our main man winds up with s very generous chic who wants to rescue him from the underworld. gives him drugs and a place to stay and a chance to make something real out of himself...

but it would be way cooler to screw her and leave her for dead after screwing one of her friends out of money and - you guessed it- literally running out the back door leaving her to fend for herself...

after all she had to help him- what else could she have expected...

Well our Buddie Tex didn't stop running there...

he then ran from the ranch as to not be caught by the druggies he had screwed in case running to the ranch wasn't running enough.

I am going to do the abbreviated version from here on for all the inebriated among us :)

after running from tow houses on Aug 8/9- he ran to the desert

then he ran from the desert- only to start to run back to the desert- but then change his mind and run back to Texas.

Then - Thank God- his luck ran out...

while being interviewed by a psychiatrist while he was wasting away to nothing and running from reality- he commented that at cielo- " They all ran around like chickens with there heads cut off"

when it comes to running- he should know.

but ya know what???

when you run your whole life it is hard to stop. so he tried one more time. Their are not many places you can run to when you get in the clink.

but god is one... so he ran their and he ran their fast and furious..


and I expect he will run for the rest of his life...

Tex lived a brief and fast free life

sometimes it is too difficult to slow down and look behind you. it is too scary to see where you have been.

But Tex can't run forever...

like it will with all of us- life and karma eventually catch up

katie8753 said...

Yeah St., you've got it right. Tex coulda had it all, but he threw it all away....for absolutely nothing.

Now the best he can hope for is to bend over for the soap. LOL.

He is the Über Loser.....

Bing said...

Hey lynyrd,
Thanks for posting this.....I think you must be fucking psyhic because just yesterday I was thinking about that geraldo show and wondering who in the fuck that John guy was. I even mentioned something to my girlfriend about it. Unfortunately she thinks I'm fucked because of my weird obsession with this case.
Anyways keep up the good work

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey Bing!
Great to see you Bro!

Glad you enjoyed the post! : )

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Great points Saint C!

I never actually mapped "Tex" out like that (in my mind)... but, now that you laid it out plainly (and chronologically LOL)... it does seem that he always took the path of least resistance.

Did he ever rise-up to any challenge?

He sucks...

katie8753 said...

Hi Starship! Hi Bing!

Mr. Sandman is calling now. It's been a long day. LOL.

Night y'all.

MrPoirot said...

Charlie put the blame for the murders on Tex. He blamed the drug burns for ruining everything.

The Lotsapoppa shooting and the Hinman stabbing are erily similar events. In both cases the drug dealer was robbed of either cash or property. When Charlie went to rescue tex's girlfriend from Lotsapoppa he didn't return the money to Lotsapoppa. Charlie kept the burn money and shoots Lotsapoppa.
At Hinman's, Charlie shows up and slashes Hinman.

Was it actually Charlie behind the idea of the drug burns? Somebody came up with the drug burns because Hinman and Lotsapoppa occurred only days apart.

fiona1933 said...

Wow, so awesome! Blinding stuff! Colour me double impressed!

BTW, can anyone read the writing in the picture of the Ranch? Is that the saloon bar I have heard so much about? John certainly made it look amazing, with all these nymphs draped about. Can't help wishing I'd been one of them ,except I'm afraid I'd have been just the type to be sent off with Susan and Katie. Eeek, it's better to be older.

St Circumstance, as to the 'dirty manger' I think the girls gave birth in pretty good way. The other girls held the birthing mother up in the air in a sitting position, so gravity assists: this is how birth should be. And they knew how to keep things aseptic. It wasn't the Middle Ages. No-one got puerperal fever.

I read where Pygmy women give birth like this and wonderfully, the birth canal is opened by sound. The women holding the mother all know instinctively when to make a special deep powerful humming, somehow the soundwave causes the bones just to relax and open up and the baby slides right out. And the mother immediately sings a beautiful song about how her heart is a net which has caught a little bird. This is better than lying on your back, worst position, and pushing and screaming through bones held tight from muscles clenched in stress and terror. These tearing ripping births, no need. The Manson girls spoke of Susan's birth and Mary's birth as happening easily.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey Fiona!
Thanks for the compliments!

Wow... there IS writing on the walls and ceiling of that picture, isn't there?
I didn't take notice of that.
I was too busy "noticing" all the naked girls, I guess. LOL
The writing is too small to make out.

Someone would have to blow-up that photo to at least 150%, to have a chance at reading that stuff.
The few words that I can read, don't appear to be english.
Latin? Italian?
I have a feeling, that it's just an "artsy" effect, and those passages don't actually say anything intelligible.
But who knows?
Anyone want to expand the photo for us... and take a look?
MattP?

I too, wish I was part of that scene Fiona!
Most of the bars I frequent, don't have young, beautiful, nude women all over the place! LOLOL
I must say... it DOES add to the ambiance! LOLOL

Is it just me (being perverted)... or are the wooden spindels (bars) holding-up that railing on the second floor, actually carved to depict naked women also?
It certainly looks to me, like they are...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I don't know the first thing about childbirth... so, I'm not touching that one. LOL

I make the babies... I don't deliver them.
: )

katie8753 said...

It says "Vesuvio" on the wall. Wonder if it has anything to do with this?

http://www.vesuvio.com/index2.html

ST. Circumstance said...

Hello Fiona...

Sometimes I come across as a know it all prick with no sense of compromise, or ability to consider other poeple opinions. I am really trying to think about that and be more social an open to the ideas of others going forward. As well- you seem like a very nice person...

having said that

no way to I ever even think twice about this issue ever

being held up in the air by a bunch of stoned - filthy- teenagers is not the way anyone should be giving birth. Having a new baby in those conditions around those people
( never mind the bikers and drugs and weapons all in the vicinity)
is criminal- CRIMINAL

today - once call from an outraged grandparent would cause social services to go in there and close the Spahn Ranch down to anyone under 18 in about 45 seconds...

I cant understand how anyone could really think what they did was healthy or good for a baby in any way shape or form???

it was not the middle ages- but what you described, my friend I hope, sounds like something out of the middle ages. True the children born their may have survived- but that doesn't make it right...

and who knows what ailments or addictions these children were born with, or later developed as a result

at the very least- we know what kind of influence they were born into and with...

CRIMINAL- in my opinion...

ST. Circumstance said...

last thought about a subject that bothers the hell out of me...

they do lots of things in third world countries because they have no choices or options...

But when you progress as a society, and do have options and the ability to make the very best decisions and provide a better level of care for your unborn child...

dont you have a personal responsibility to not take the whole thing as one more reason to have a big drug induced party??

I am very glad the others thought it was such a nice/ fun thing to do..

I do recall reading someone
( Mary?) not sure who- but it is in something I own- defied Charlie and went to a hospital to have their child anyway...

now why I wonder did one of them do that if the others were having such a good time???

not every one in that group bought all the bullshit- their are a few examples of people thinking for themselves...

This should have been one of those times for all of them

ST. Circumstance said...

Please let me be clear ...

not attacking you Fiona- I respect your opinion.

I dont agree

you responded to something I posted, and this is my rebuttal. however- I do respect your opinion regardless how different it is from my own on this issue

:)

katie8753 said...

>>>St. said: I do recall reading someone
( Mary?) not sure who- but it is in something I own- defied Charlie and went to a hospital to have their child anyway...>>>

St. that was Sandy.

If there's one thing on God's good green earth that I'm quite sure of, it's that the only way you're not going to feel labor pains is if you're numb from the waist down, or you're completely under.

Humming ain't gonna get it. LOL.

katie8753 said...

I'll bet the word "Vesuvio" in the picture is referring to this San Francisco Saloon:

"This world-renowned San Francisco saloon located in North Beach just across from the infamous City Lights Bookstore, was first established in 1948 and remains an historical monument to jazz, poetry, art and the good life of the Beat Generation. Vesuvio attracts a diverse clientele: artists, chess players, cab drivers, seamen and business people, European visitors, off-duty exotic dancers and bon vivants from all walks of life."

leary7 said...

off topic question, but does anyone have any suggestions on info relating to when the girls were all in prison together around 1973. Pat, Sadie, Leslie, Gypsy and Mary were all living on death row (though it had been abolished). I know Susan's book would be the #1 place to look but I was wondering if there was any place else.

ST. Circumstance said...

Leary- I sent this to you on another site- you must not have seen it...

The long Strange journey of Leslie Van Houten

it was written by the lady who she stayed with when she was out before her second and third trials...

very pro lulu- but covers all that time and it sucks to read but does give decent info about there lives all those years including the times when other " family girls" were put with them..

they built a special unit for the Manon Girls and they sort of just left them their for awhile after the death penalties were overturned..

it says that lulu and Katie were pissy with Sadie and katie was the last to ween off charlie- keeping his pics on her wall and signing his songs well into the 70's...

ST. Circumstance said...

sorry between her 2'nd and 3'rd trials..

At the age of twenty-one, Leslie Van Houten was sentenced to death, along with Charles Manson and his other disciples, for the infamous murder rampage spanning two nights in August 1969. Leslie, who was present at the Rosemary and Leno LaBianca stabbings, serenely accepted her sentence, wishing only that she had better served Manson in carrying out his apocalyptic vision of Helter Skelter. When the United States temporarily suspended its death penalty, her sentence for murder conspiracy was converted to life in prison. Today, at the age of 51, after three trials and with no parole in sight, Leslie has become a remarkable survivor of a living nightmare.

This work tells about Karlene Faith's thirty-year friendship with Leslie, whom she met while teaching in prison. To everyone who encountered Leslie-including prison staff and television journalists-she was not the demon typically portrayed by the media, but rather a gentle, generous spirit who mourned her victims. But why didn't this intelligent young woman see the evil in the messiah who had sexually exploited her, preached a racist ideology, and ordered her to murder?

Faith pieces together the puzzle, starting with Leslie's spiritual quest within the sixties counterculture and her immediate attraction to Manson during a chance meeting. We learn of Manson's ability to look into her mind and commiserate with her turmoil. We also see his own need to control women and how his brainwashing techniques enabled his followers to embrace him as God, giving them little choice but to obey.

Leslie's journey out of Manson's grasp is a riveting feminist and spiritual story of recovering one's self. Why this rehabilitated woman, long punished for one man's madness, has not been able to leave prison is another story Faith brings to light. Filled with accounts of political injustices, this powerful book moves the reader to rethink the meanings and limits of guilt and punishment.

ST. Circumstance said...

this should give you an idea of the angle this was written with..

But I read it and it does give the information you are seeking

MrPoirot said...

Nancy Pitman gave birth at the ranch with Clem as the midwife. The baby died during birth. I suspect Clem buried that child and that child's corpse is the only person still buried at Spahn Tanch.

Dr Clem..................sheesh!
The pygmy hummimg-birth would be preferable.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint said:
"today - one call from an outraged grandparent would cause social services to go in there and close the Spahn Ranch down to anyone under 18 in about 45 seconds..."

Sounds accurate to me.

TomG said...

Leslie Van Houten, other than a bad half hour at Waverly Drive back in August of 1969, in the middle of the night, probably was never a danger to anyone ever.

If she had been acquitted in 1978 in trial number two or three, my bet would be she would have lived a law-abiding life.

Haven't said that, I would flinch if I were at the table when she picked up a steak knife.

katie8753 said...

Hi Tom.

>>>Tom said: Leslie Van Houten, other than a bad half hour at Waverly Drive back in August of 1969, in the middle of the night, probably was never a danger to anyone ever.>>>

Well, that's like saying "So Mrs. Lincoln, other than that...how was the play?"

katie8753 said...

Mr. P....do pygmies have pgymy babies? Is it politically correct to say pygmy? Maybe now they're called "small folks"? Hmmm.....

TomG said...

A half hour in a sixty-two year old life is really very minuscule.

In golf, they call it a mulligan. In life, we call it a do over.

Not every killer is the foaming at the mouth variety.

But penalties must be paid for bad decisions. Forty-three years is a pretty good start!

katie8753 said...

Well it's not really a half hour.

She was jealous that she wasn't chosen the night before. She made sure Charlie knew that she wanted to go the second night.

She tried to subdue Mrs. LaBianca with a pillowcase and a lamp cord (not sure what the cord and pillowcase represented). She wasn't successful but that doesn't mean she didn't try.

She stabbed a "dead lady" 16 times.

She raided the fridge and ate their food. She raided Mrs. LaBianca's closet and stole her clothes. She stole coins. She wiped the entire house down for prints.

She flirted with a guy for a ride back to the ranch, then hid from him.

She bragged later that "the more I stabbed the more fun it was".

She gladly shaved her head, carved an "X" on her forehead, laughed at the victims, made a complete mockery of the courtroom, flirted with a juror and then threatened the jury after the verdict, all for Charles Manson.

That takes a lot more than 30 minutes.

TomG said...

She was 19 years old in 1969. And did quite a bit of LSD by that time. And was friendly with Charlie Manson.

All of that spells trouble for our gal from Monrovia High.

People today are far more crazier and cruel.

katie8753 said...

Tom, what is it with this gal? She's like "the song of the siren" to lots of men. I just don't get it.

She had that effect on men back then. What is so special about Miss Leslie Van Houten? Scratching my head.

Listen to this:

From Leslie's trial testimony (this is from charliemanson.com, I'm not stealing it):

"I had a knife and Patricia had a knife. We just started stabbing and cutting up the lady."

"I stabbed her. I don't know if it was before or after death but I stabbed her."

When asked if she felt sorry, she answered: "That's only a five-letter word. It can't bring back anyone."

"What can I feel? It's happened. She's gone. You can't undo something that's done."

When asked if she felt ashamed, she replied "What is ashamed?"

When asked if she felt like crying, she replied "For her death? If I cry, it's for death itself. She's not the only person who died."

>>>People today are far more crazier and cruel.>>>

Well I'm not sure if they're crazier or crueler.

Just like the recent shooting in Colorado at the Batman premier. A guy mows down everyone in the theater.

Is it crazier and crueler to mow people down in a theater because you're pissed off about life, or is it crazier and crueler to invade a home and stab folks to death because your hippy cult leader told you to.

Is crazy based on the number of victims? If so, yes there are crazier people. But if crazy is based on motivation...then I have to say that TLB is crazier.

Tom, I love ya! Not arguing with you. Just wonderin'......

TomG said...

There is alot there to talk about.

For me, Lesle Van Houten is the nice girl you knew in high school who went bad. Except she went really, really bad. It could happen to anyone.

But she came back. While I don't know the women, everything I have read would support that she found herself in prison and redeemed her character.

That use to mean something, to borrow a phrase from Charlie. Redemption is the cornerstone of our Judeo-Christian culture.

The only reason she was never paroled is because of the notoriety of this case.

So be it. But how many violent criminals are paroled all of the time because there isn't the same scrutiny?

katie8753 said...

>>>Tom said: For me, Lesle Van Houten is the nice girl you knew in high school who went bad. Except she went really, really bad. It could happen to anyone.>>>

It never happened to me! And I was only a few years younger than Leslie Louise Van Houten. And I was a nice girl too.

Night Tom!

TomG said...

Night.

fiona1933 said...

St C, got to take issue with the word 'filthy'. Natural hippy style or not, these were middle-class girls in a first-world country who understood the need for asepsis. Several accounts i have read speak of the girls getting boiling water and sterilizing stuff. Especially a razor blade to do an episiotomy on Sadie.

Hospitals, after all, are places where people routinely get communicable diseases and which often have filthy toilets. Spahn Ranch seems to me to have been perfectly clean, and the Family were affronted by the claims they were dirty: they always said it was the police who wrecked the place and said that's how they'd been living. Look at Gypsy on Hendrickson'd second film, making a big deal of showing how she showers. I don't see why, with clean towels, scrubbed hands and sterile instruments, the birth couldn't have gone just fine, which it did. Mary even said her boy was a breech birth.

Now, if I had a baby, I would be yelling epidural ay heavy metal volume, but I am not 19, with stretchy bones, horse-riding all day and learning to leave my stresses behind and let the tension ebb from my body in acid trips orgies and group therapy. And living with people who love me, instead of a tense world of competition. They had a lot to give, the Family.

ST. Circumstance said...

In my estimation the Manson "family"
as well call them- were not nice, average people or hippy kids at all. Even before Charlie. They were loser druggies. They didn't like to be called hippies and I agree with them. being a slacker stoned out of your mind teenager - even in the 60"s- doesnt automatically make you a hippy

The summer of love was a summer. you know why? Becuase in the fall they all went back to school. Most of the leaders in the " Hippy" movement were educated. Some of the most notorious outspoken radicals- run major corporations today...

Their were ideals and values behind it from well thought out progressive thinkers who used drugs to expand the mind and experiment- not to sit around all day and be stoned with not motivation or goals other than to be wasted...

then like now... their are many deadbeats drug addict losers who offer nothing, and ask for everything and use a certain language or verbiage to excuse there own addictions and total lack of ambition to accomplish anything in life...

I think these type of people made up the Manson clan, and then Charlie came them some common garbage to rally around...

but it was very far from what Hippy is all about in my opinion.



etymology of the term 'hippie' is from hipster, and was initially used to describe beatniks who had moved into San Francisco's Haight-Ashbury district. Both the words "hip" and "hep" came from African American culture and denote "awareness."[1] The early hippies inherited the countercultural values of the Beat Generation, created their own communities, listened to psychedelic rock, embraced the sexual revolution, and some used drugs such as cannabis, LSD and magic mushrooms to explore altered states of consciousness.

ST. Circumstance said...

Fiona in almost every thing I have read the ranch is " old and dilapidated"

feces on plates in the fridge... they had no Air Conditioning, or plumbing..
they ate with dishes that weren't sanitized or cleaned with any type of heated water...

have you ever seen any of the old pictures?? they walked in horse shit in bare feet...

You gots to be kidding me right?

it seems to you to have been perfectly clean??

Seriously??

Dilligaf said...

"TomG said...
There is alot there to talk about.

For me, Lesle Van Houten is the nice girl you knew in high school who went bad. Except she went really, really bad. It could happen to anyone.

But she came back. While I don't know the women, everything I have read would support that she found herself in prison and redeemed her character.

That use to mean something, to borrow a phrase from Charlie. Redemption is the cornerstone of our Judeo-Christian culture.

The only reason she was never paroled is because of the notoriety of this case."

It could happen to anybody, but it did not happen to millions of young girls in similar circumstances growing up. The increasing usage of drugs, random promiscuity through want ads, running away to the Haight are not things that you typically see young girls do.

Her behavior in prison is nothing more than an attempt to redefine herself into more acceptable roles, manipulating others into a more sypmathetic level of support. In 2006, she testified that her father was an alcholic, leading people to believe that he was abusive. In 2007, she "clarified" her statement to include that her father was actually in AA, and that she had never seen her father drink. Oops, caught lying again. That pesky truth....

Redemption is between a person and their God, it is not societies role to determine who has redeemed themselves.

The notoriety has not caused her continued incareration, she has. Setting aside that she is a twice convicted murderer, she is a typical convict, attempting to lie and blame others, re-inventing herself in an endless attempt to gain freedom when clearly all she has done is show that she can adapt to any situation in order to get what she wants. But, I will agree with anyone who is calling for her release on one thing. I will agree on her release once she shows how she can release the LaBianca's from their graves. Seems fair to me....

fiona1933 said...

I have read the Long Prison Journey Of Leslie Van Houten, too. Very good, very thoughtful feminist work. All the girls worked with Karlene to gain an understanding of how the culture had shaped them. Karlene believed that with 'women's bonding' they would not have subjected themselves to Manson, but they were looking for father figures to dominate them as their own fathers had been distant or brutal but not dominating. Karlene showed them that there is another way, that feminism can help men escape this brutal cycle of being Men with a capital M and be human and loving, but it starts with women learning to love themselves first.

I loved one part of Susan Faludi's "Stiffed" about men in America where she explains how the cadets of the Citadel army training school so opposed women joining, not because they are evil misogynists, but because an army is the only place a man can tell another man he loves him, and hug and be close and warm, and not be accused of being gay. It's the men's secret place, where they don't have to be Men, they can be fully human. They can houseclean and sit and sew and gossip and be afraid and vulnerable, just as women can, but if a woman, or a gay man, came into this, the whole thing would be sexualised, and they would have to be Men again. If only more Men would realise that feminism offers them the chance to be like this all the time. But there are always women who sabotage feminism, too.

fiona1933 said...

Feces in the fridge? I really really doubt that. And we don't know if that was just another thing done by the cops. Dilapidated, yes. And of course horseshit, it was a working ranch! So what if it's on your feet! You can wash it off in the perfectly clean shower, or the clean water of the river! Nobody ever saw the girls sitting covered in dirt, except for cases like Sadie and this seems to have been after her son's birth, when she became spaced out in a serious way. Methamphetamine makes you look dirty from the inside.
Look at the films of them. Sometimes they have skin breakouts: these I believe are attributable to stress, all this singing and smiling while they know there are killers amongst them and while suppressing their own guilt, horror and shock. (Housewives of the time used to break out in the same sores after pretending to be happy for 20 years).

But they are not dirty! All of them were keen to stress that they lived clean. Look, when I was a student, my friends lived in dilapidated places and had to work a bit harder to be clean, but did it, but anyone giving a quick glance might think the place was falling down and dirty. Dirty hippie student drug users, we heard it all the time and everyone would angrily say: "Dirty?!"

A working ranch and some old buildings. You can still create an oasis of cleanliness when you need to. It doesn't need to be made of marble and plastic.

ST. Circumstance said...

if Spahn Ranch was an oasis of cleanliness to you we probably wont agree on much Fiona but thats o.k...

You can doubt what you want- but I have read and watched hours of video and many books with many pictures of the ranch, and read firsthand accounts in the hundreds....

We just aren't going to agree that this was a place to rear children..

so I will let it go at that :)

ST. Circumstance said...

I took this from Truth on TLb- thanks for the loan...

read this Fiona...

it mentions the conditions at the ranch and the condition of the children..

its an actual police report and it says the place is disgusting...

read this- and tell me how " clean" you think this place is

:)

http://truthontatelabianca.com/threads/the-spahn-ranch-kids-police-petition-from-the-spahn-ranch-raid.3411/

ST. Circumstance said...

Please notice on that page on the site above the police report it says the following :



The part that is covered up at the bottom describes the maggots crawling on the counters and the bowl of shit that was in the fridge along with the shit being smeared on the fridge and along the floor.

This paperwork shows the true living conditions at the ranch. These were not clean people. This destruction was NOT caused by the police.

For supposedly loving the children, and putting them above all else, they sure had a funny way of showing it.

ST. Circumstance said...

but if you feel it was an oasis of cleanliness...

your the first person I have ever heard say those type of things...

I am going to leave it at that

fiona1933 said...

Why did Manson go and involve himself in the Lotsapoppa thing?

We know Tex ripped off Lotsapoppa and left a girl there.

In one of Charlie's interviews, he says that this girl was a hooker, and that Tex told him. Manson, that it was SHE who had screwed him out of the money. Charlie said he told Tex to deal with it himself, another example of Charlie contradicting the reports of his 'control'. He always says he tried not to be a leader.

But then Charlie got dragged into it because Tex would not go and rescue the girl. Charlie went to be a white knight.

Believable? Well, why did he go? He also states that Lotsapoppa had threatened to come and burn down the ranch and rape the girls.

Someday, I am going to do a piece on the climate of violence that surrounded the whole hippy movement, and how the Manson killings may have simply burst forth as a natural consequence.

It was everywhere. Starting with the ruin of the Hashbury before the Summer Of Love was even over. So many deaths in the hippy world. And drugs are at the heart of this. Before hippies, there was the straight world and the underworld. Even Prohibition didn't mix them up. But the sheer number of the middle-class young wandering, joined by veterans with thousand yard stares, and deliberately rejecting their parents societal controls while in a state of suggestion brought on by hallucinogens altered their nature, made them uncivilised. Susan Atkins said that when you take acid, you learn from Charlie to reject something and when you come down, you think you go back to how you were, but you don't. You are altered and you are not even aware. You are accepting what would have shocked you once. And some of it is good, you are loving everyone, doing away with jealously and tension and competition, not owning anyone...but you are also becoming open to ideas like: there is no death, there is no wrong, do back what has been done to you, it's the same love...

ST. Circumstance said...

In Tex own book he says the girl was his girlfriend and he admits to screwing the guy out of money and he admits it was his own idea...

Fiona please keep going


your amazing me...

Lotsapoppa did threaten to go burn donw the ranch, but not because he was a hippy...

or anything to do with hippys...

some losers had just screwed him out of about 5K

ST. Circumstance said...

It seems to me like we have a type of person here Fiona who is much like those on the Gerlado profile...

not really informed on this subject-
sounds very trippy and spiritual in her speech...

and poeple listen and watch this and form these opinions about hippys- which you are obviously not- and Charlies family- which you were obviously not...

defending the girls- it was all the Mens fault... defending the ranch- it was so clean... defending the violence- it was the hippy thing....

they were a classless bunch of losers, who lived in the same appropriate manner...

like scum

and when you make these arguments which are so easily proved to be baseless- it takes away your credibility... don't you even check before making statements- to see if they can be proven or disproved? it took me 4 seconds to goolge the shit in fridge and find that article...

but if you want to keep going


I wont stop you :)

ST. Circumstance said...

its raining today in South Florida- Mrs. C is working at the Hospital in Miami...

I got some time to kill if you want to edumacate me...

wait- ill go get some beers- be back in a bit

katie8753 said...

Hi Dill! Thanks for your comment. I agree completely!! :)

katie8753 said...

Cleanliness at the ranch?

I can't define "clean" by describing people who get their clothing out of a pile of clothes previously worn by someone else, or having sex with multiple partners and spreading STDs out the ying-yang. Not to mention all the horse flies.

I've been bitten by horse flies while horseback riding and it HURTS! Those things must have teeth. LOL.

ST. Circumstance said...

yep- they were all treated for VD...

also- many of them spoke themselves of rashes and other skin diseases...

I just never heard anyone ever refer to the ranch as anything other than a shit-hole...

EVERY description I have ever heard says that... every picture shows it...

Just shocked someone really feels that way...

They may have had a blast and they may have loved it- but even at their own parole hearings they describe it as run down and filthy...

leary7 said...

Thanks Saint. No, I must have missed that post. I will try and find the book, sounds interesting.

For me, the two key words in the TLB saga are 'devotion' and 'savagery'. How did Manson inspire such devotion, and how was the savagery, which may or may not exist in most of us, brought out in Pat, Leslie etc.?

I posted a quote at the end of the last thread from the wife of a famous drug dealer/killer were she talked about even though she loved her husband she recognized him as "pure evil" and was in fact a prisoner of the magnetic pull of his evilness.
This is a notion that I think we underestimate in regards to TLB. There is no question that Manson can be extremely charming and intelligent. But he is also, by his own account, a sociopath who has little if any regard for human life. We who are intrigued by him tend to want to downplay his "evilness", indeed many want to deny it. But it is there.
The "magnetic lure of evilness" - it is a fascinating subject and one I personally feel is allot more relevant to TLB than feminist theory or hippie revisionism or such.
That is one reason why I remain disappointed that Gypsy's book has never come out. She was probably the most intelligent of the lot and she saw some real evil in her day, not just with Manson but with Como and others.
The evil gene - who had it in the Family and who didn't. And for those who had it and acted upon it - Pat etc - how did they tame it. Mostly, I guess, with the Jesus placebo.

leary7 said...

That might be interesting, to rank the Family in terms of evil capacity. I suspect many would rank Tex ahead of Charlie. Sadie would be up there, and Pat and Leslie have to be. Bruce and Clem too. And of course even though she was never charged with a violent crime, Nancy Pitman just seems evil. The sweet Ouisch said she "couldn't wait to get her first pig".
WHo resisted the pull of evil the most? Maybe Ella Jo who was there from the start but seems to have objected when things got nasty.
I read yesterday this interesting quote from Junaita Wildbush where she was talking about how gentle Manson was and how the one time she saw him cry he was talking about how everyone had turned ugly and the love had all gone so he had to leave. That was an eye openener.

ST. Circumstance said...

Charlie was a piece of shit- but not really Evil to me...

he was in trouble his whole life and everyone who knew him said he was weak.

" He was on the Pay no mind list" "

"He was the kind of guy you could walk up on and say fuck you Punk and not worry"

" In all of his history, I was surprised to see how little violent crime there was"

He slashed Gary and Split...
He shot Crowe in the gut and split..

He didn't do anything personally which was viscous or violent to any kind of level which would make him as infamous as he is...

it is all the wired stuff that went on combined with the unbelievable savage actions of - mostly - two people ( none of which was him) which make this case so famous...

then you throw in the way he looked and acted in court and the fact he never seemed to care one way or another if he lived or died...

and the legend grows

But to me he was a petty crook himself- too chicken shit to do the really gruesome things he is credited with...

Shooting someone with a gun is not nearly as difficult as stabbing someone over and over.. its a much more personal and grueling thing to do...

pulling a trigger once is just not the same as getting up close and listening to a person breathe and gasp and beg, it takes longer and requires a much tougher skin....


Charlie didn't do those type of things..

and if he asked others to do so- well only a very very small percentage of them could...

so he didn't have an army of zombies.. if he was so evil and manipulative- why didn't more than 5 or 6 out of 30 to 40 do more???

and I am talking about actual violence... not hiding things or hitting people in the head who are already half dead ( Shorty)

Tex/Katie- 80% of the stuff that make people fear Manson

Susan/Katie/Clem/Bruce- small amount of actual participation- but def involved nonetheless

Bobby- if you want to count him- same thing as above...

who else????

Take Tex and Katie away- who else could have done that??

a-lot of them talked a good game, but they were kids....

many outright said No ( Linda, TJ,)

others fled....

He wasn't anywhere near what people say about him as far as evil...

but he was a shady petty con who got involved with a group of losers and they were younger and you throw in drugs and what you have to me is a career trouble maker...

making trouble...

the limits to how much trouble in each individual case- were directly proportionate to what was inside each one of them individually.... the group jsut gave them the excuse to take it to those individual limits. The ones who had it in them to kill- killed. The ones who could rob- robbed... some just stuck to drugs and sex... some got out completely.

and that is how you can rate them :)

ST. Circumstance said...

People walk into movie cinemas dressed up as joker and start shooting

People walk into schools and start shooting

Politicians make deals for money which they know will cost people jobs and their homes and for the most part there lives..

Coaches take little boys into the locker room and force anal sex on them, and there bosses cover it up and allow it to continue to others for years...

World leaders send bombs into cities with the understanding that many people will die under false pretenses to further political agendas...

people with aids continue to have regular unprotected sex with multiple partners, out of selfishness and anger...


Charlie Manson was not the same thing to me...

leary7 said...

As usual, interesting stuff, Saint. I get where you are coming from. There have been many times I have wondered about Manson's evilness...is it genuine or just part of his con. Obviously allot of it is media created.
I guess it all comes down to how you define evil. Does someone have to be personally violent to be evil? Did Hitler ever engage in personal violence?
I doubt any two people could agree on an exact definition of evil. For me it would contain equal parts hatred, anger, narcisicism, nihilism and a couple of other isms.
I do find it difficult to equate any of the Manson Family, with the obvious exception of Tex, with such purely evil folk like Bundy, Ramirez and such. But I think if I make it upstairs Sharon, Rosemary and Abigal might give me a good arguement on that one.
Evil is an abstract...until you come face to face with it.

ST. Circumstance said...

Go take a good look at Scientology sometime...

L Ron Hubbard studied Alister Crowley..

go research what he did to families, and the policies he wrote which still call for families to abandon each other to this day....

figure out what a Suppressive person is, and how they are treated..

go look up what happens when you go to the Rehabilitative Work force...

Dave Miscavige and L. Ron Hubbard are much more to worry about than Charlie Manson...

I promise

and if you want to get really scared- go look who the top Scientologists are...

Greta Van Susterin..

yeah you know she is on CNN...

did you know her husband was a lawyer and top political advisor to Sarah Palin when she was running for VP....

Hmmmm- if they had won and the president had died...

the leader of our country would be advised by and have in his ear on every issue...

????

what is going on in our own country up in Clear water is something you really have to go see for yourself... they own the entire city...

they all drive around town on busses in uniform. they have cameras on the street corners to watch you, and they come up and take your picture if you are walking around their buildings and they dont know you...

they have their own rules and because they literally blackmailed the IRS- they have Church status and aren't subject to the same labor laws as the rest of us. they have " volounteers" not employees...

they make 12 to 15 year olds work and act like adults- and they lock them always and separate them from the parents on a daily basis..

They force abortions and divorces, and they take everything from you when you join, and give you nothing while you are their and you always know if you ever leave- if you have the means to leave- nobody you have ever known inside will ever speak to you again...

Evil enough???

operation clambake... great website

go see for yourself what real evil is

Dave miscavige's own family is their to tell you... ( Jenna)

100's of testimonies and stories of separation from family and torture...

but they have lots of money and they spend lots of money...

so EVERYONE is afraid of them

and the magazines and TV who have tackled it- have spent millions in court....

so it stays quiet...

L. Ron hubbard once said the fastest way to make a million bucks was to start a religion...

imagine Charlie with tons of dough and millions of followers????

L. Ron was what Charlie could never dream of being...

the guy lived in hiding right up until the day he died. 4 or 5 people knew where he was...

He was not allowed in several countries, and his closest people including his wife went to jail for breaking into and bugging the IRS buildings...

today they only have some of the most important people in politics and government in their fold...

but aside from tom Cruise or john Travolta acting out...

it never comes into the public conscious...

That is the kind of evil that scares the shit out of me

ST. Circumstance said...

off subject so my last post on this- but read this if your interested...


Scientology surely has the distinction of containing the
largest collection of teachings produced by one man. There are
more than a hundred books and over 2,500 recorded lectures. But
there are also thousands of registered trademarks, including many
symbols.

Many of these symbols have magical significance. It seems
highly unlikely given his study of the occult that Hubbard was
unaware of the earlier use of these symbols. The Scientology
cross which Hubbard claimed to have seen in an old Spanish church
in Arizona (86) is markedly similar to the Rosicrucian cross
(87) and also to Aleister Crowley's OTO cross. Hubbard had been a
member of the Rosicrucians. He had also commented on Crowley's
Tarot which carries the OTO cross on the back of every card.
Hubbard cannot have been ignorant of these uses.

The Scientology cross could also be seen as a crossed out
cross, with potentially Satanic implications. It seems strange
that Hubbard who called Scientology a "better" activity than
Christianity (88) called Christ an invention (89) and said that
the "Creator of Heaven" would be found "with beetles under the
rocks" (90), should have adopted the exclusive Christian word
"church", the garb of Christian ministers and the use of the
cross as a symbol. But Scientology is based upon deception and
contradictions.

ST. Circumstance said...

The Rosicrucians and the Freemasons share a ritual called the
"grave of fire" (91). A senior Rosicrucian who had also studied
Scientology told me that the initiate lies on a carpet within a
pattern of lapping flames. He claimed that Scientology's
Religious Technology Center - or RTC - symbol was very similar.

The RTC symbol contains the Dianetics triangle, which is a
common magicical symbol, representing the door of the Cabala, the
letter Daleth. Hubbard indeed assigned it to the Greek
equivalent of Daleth, Delta. The triangle on its base is also the
symbol of Set, the Egyptian god called by some "the destroyer of
man", the male equivalent of Babalon. Indeed Crowley equates Set
with Satan (93). The triangle is universally recognised as a
sign of malign power. Alexandra David-Neel commented upon its use
as such among the Tibetians. Her best-selling books of the 1930's
contain many other possible comparisons with Hubbard's work.

The "S and double triangle" is a major symbol found throughout
Scientology. The "S" supposedly represents "Scientology" and the
two triangles Affinity-Reality-Communication and
Knowledge-Responsibility-Control. There is another possible
interpretation. The "S" seen on its own can easily be seen as a
snake. To Crowley, indeed, the "S" represented the tempting
serpent, Satan. Perhaps Hubbard's "thetan" is pronounced to match
with a lisped "satan"? He was after all wry in his humour. The
two triangles can be assembled differently to form the Star of
David, called the Seal of Solomon by magicians (94). This symbol
allegedly represents "tetragrammaton" the holy name of God which
must never be spoken. Perhaps breaking it apart is simlar to
hanging the Christian cross upside down.

Next we see the Sea Organization symbol. The five pointed star,
or pentacle is the most commonly known symbol of magical power.
It is held between two thirteen-leaved laurels. Armstrong told me
in 1984 that judging by the papers in Hubbard's archive the
creator of Scientology was more interested in numerology than
any other aspect of magic.

Among the more seemingly fanciful claims of Hubbard's oldest
son, L. Ron, junior, was that his father was the successor to the
magicians who created Nazism. Nazism was certainly an
authoritarian group, a protypical destructive cult. Recent
revealations about leading Scientologist Thomas Marcellus'
long-running direction of the Institute for Historical Review can
only add to speculation (95). Dusty Sklar has said that had she
known about Hubbard she would have used him in the last chaper of
The Nazis and the Occult rather than Sun Myung Moon (96). L.
Ron, junior, was sure that the teachings of the Germanen Orden
and the Thule Society had passed directly to his father by
courier. In this light, the white circle on a red square of
Scientology's International Management Organization (97) can be
readily compared to the Nazi flag. The four lightning flashes or
"sig runes" are also common to Nazism. No explanation is given
for these sig runes by Scientology. They also appear on the RTC
symbol. At the time that both of these symbols were introduced,
Hubbard also created the International Finance Police, headed by
the International Finance Dictator. An unusual choice of words.

ST. Circumstance said...

Scientology is a neo-gnostic system, which is to say that it
teaches the attainment of insight through a series of stages.
These stages are called by Scientologists "the Bridge to Total
Freedom". The Bridge currently consists of some 27 levels. These
levels might be compared to the initiations of magical systems.
While the stages appear dissimilar to those of Crowley's Ordo
Templi Orientis, it is worth noting that both systems consist of
stages, that both have secret levels and that both are numbered
with Roman numerals. Hubbard also shared with Crowley a numbering
system which begins at 0 rather than 1.

The Scientology Bridge has as its end the creation of an
"Operating Thetan". Hubbard used the word "thetan" to identify
the self, the spirit which is the person. He claimed that the
word derived from an earlier Greek usage of the letter theta for
"spirit" (49). I have been unable to find such a usage, but can
comment that the theta symbol is central to the Crowley system
where it is found as an aspect of the sign used for Babalon. To
Crowley, the theta sign represented the essential principles of
his system - thelema or the will. (50)

By "Operating Thetan", Hubbard meant and individual or "thetan"
able to "operate" freely from the physical body, able to cause
effects at a distance by will alone. In Hubbard's words "a
thetan exterior who can have but doesn't have to have a body in
order to control or operate thought, life, matter, energy, space
and time" (51). Hubbard used the term "intention" rather than
"will" (52), but the goal of Scientology is clearly the same as
that of the Crowley system. The Scientologist wishes to be able
to control events and the minds of others by intention. This
seems to be exactly what Crowley called "thelema". In a 1952
lecture, Hubbard recommended a book which he called "The Master
Therion" (53). This was in fact one of Crowley's "magical"
names. I have been advised by an officer of one of the Ordo
Templi Orientis groups that the reference is most likely to
Crowley's magnum opus Magick in Theory and Practice. In that
work, Crowley gave this definition "Magick is the Science and Art
of causing Change to occur in confirmity with Will" (54). So the
aim of both Crowley and Hubbard seems to have been the same.

ST. Circumstance said...

now go watch tom Cruise recruiting video and in which he is wearing all black, and their is a fire going on behind him, and he is imploring people to get involved totally or not at all...

not just anybody out there rallying t the troops is it...

then go google a list of who else is in this Church...

and you will start to see what is happening and how true Evil is not the scruffy older ex con who you really should be smart enough to see coming...

but the unexpected people who have the smarts and means to really change things on a global scale...

EVIL enough ????

ST. Circumstance said...

o.k. really finally the last one :)

you can read in every magazine on the news stand that Katie holmes' father had to set this all up while Cruise was away filming a movie. He had a whole team in place...

is this a divorce or an extraction?

Why do you think that is???



Hubbard was clearly involved in the occult. In 1945, L. Ron Hubbard met Jack Parsons, who was a renowned scientist, protégé of occultist Aleister Crowley, and a member of the notorious Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.), an international organization founded by Crowley to practice sexual black magic.

Parsons had Hubbard move onto the property of Parsons' Pasadena, California, home. It was there that Hubbard began to practice the occult and sexual magic. Parsons' mistress, Sara Northrup, left him for Hubbard and later became Hubbard's second wife, even before Hubbard had divorced his first wife (The Los Angeles Times, June 24, 1990, p. A37).

Biographer Russell Miller wrote, "Parsons considered that Ron had great magical potential and took the risk of breaking his solemn oath of secrecy to acquaint Ron with some of the O.T.O. rituals.... Parsons wrote to his 'Most Beloved Father' (his term for Aleister Crowley) to acquaint him with events: 'About three months ago I met Captain L. Ron Hubbard.... Although he has no formal training in Magick, he has an extraordinary amount of experience and understanding in the field. From some of his experiences I deduced that he is in direct touch with some higher intelligence, possibly his Guardian Angel. He describes his Angel as a beautiful winged woman with red hair whom he calls the Empress and who has guided him through his life and saved him many times. He is the most Thelemic [self-willed, independent] person I have ever met and is in complete accord with our own principles'" (Russell Miller, Bare-Faced Messiah: the True Story of L. Ron Hubbard, 1987, pp. 117-8, emphasis added).

"Parsons wanted to attempt an experiment in black magic that would push back the frontiers of the occult world. With the assistance of his new friend, he intended to try and create a 'moonchild' - the magical child 'mightier than all the kings of the earth,' whose birth had been prophesied in The Book of the Law more than forty years earlier" (Ibid., p. 119).

Former high ranking Scientologists Brent Corydon and Hubbard's son, L. Ron Hubbard Jr., wrote, "In order to obtain a woman prepared to bear this magical child, Parsons and Hubbard engaged themselves for eleven days of rituals ¼ on January 18th, Parsons found the girl who was prepared to become the mother of Babylon, and to go through the required incantation rituals. During these rituals, which took place on the first three days of March 1946, Parsons was High Priest and had sexual intercourse with the girl, while Hubbard who was present acted as skryer, seer, or clairvoyant and described what was supposed to be happening on the astral plane" (Bent Corydon & L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman?, 1987, pp. 256-7).

ST. Circumstance said...

In Hubbard's 1952 Philadelphia Doctorate Course Lectures, he states:

"The magical cults of the 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th centuries in the Middle East were fascinating. The only modern work that has anything to do with them is a trifle wild in spots, but is a fascinating work in itself, and that's the work of Aleister Crowley - the late Aleister Crowley - my very good friend.... He signs himself 'the Beast,' mark of the Beast 666..." (Ibid.).

"According to Ron Jr. his father considered himself to be the one 'who came after'; that he was Crowley's successor; that he had taken on the mantle of the 'Great Beast.' He told him that Scientology actually began on December 1st, 1947. This was the day Aleister Crowley died" (Ibid., p. 50).

ST. Circumstance said...

Charlie is a scumbag who is shady and crazy, and I admit at times even a bit funny....

but there is real evil out there and what happened in TLb was horrible, and someday we may realize it was senseless and for no real or good reason- which would also make it tragic...

Tex Watson is as bad a person as you can find and Evil works for me with him, and Katie let go with something that was deep inside of her and I believe it shocked her and does to this day- but if you want to call it evil- Ill take that as well....

But Charlie doesn't get that much credit from me...

petty shit talking scumbag is as far as I can go when I know what else is really out there

ST. Circumstance said...

sorry to highjack the blog...

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ST. Circumstance said...

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=tomcruise+scientology+video&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz35

watch this Katie and listen to him. notice how he is dressed and how dark the lighting is, and listen to the terms and acronyms he uses...

wanna get scared lol

ST. Circumstance said...

He actually says in this video...

" when you drive by a car accident as a sicentologist you know you have to help, because you know you are the only one who can help"

this is a recruiting video...

what is he implying Scientology will give you the power to do???

listen and think people....

ST. Circumstance said...

He says it as 1:06 of the video...

what is he saying??

how can you( scientologist) be the only one who can help??

What do you have magical powers???

Ahhhhh lol

so thats what he was getting at with all those posts about L.Ron..

Magik... its all based on Satanism, and they want to take over the world, and they have lots of money and lots of power and they should be taken seriously...

ST. Circumstance said...

and Tom cruise knows a thing or two about production...

they didn't have him in all white outside with kids playing or harp music in the background did they...

nope- very dark dressed in all black- with the one bright fiery light in the background..

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ST. Circumstance said...

Suppressive Person, often abbreviated SP, is a term used in Scientology to describe the "antisocial personalities" who, according to Scientology's founder L. Ron Hubbard, make up about 2.5% of the population. A statement on a Church of Scientology website describes this group as including notorious historic figures such as Adolf Hitler.[1]

The term is often applied to those whom the Church of Scientology perceives as its enemies, i.e., those whose "disastrous" and "suppressive" acts are said to impede the progress of individual Scientologists or the Scientology movement.[2]

One of the reasons Scientology doctrines portray Suppressive Persons as such a danger is that they are supposed to make people around them become Potential Trouble Source (abbreviated PTS). Scientology defines a PTS as "a person who is in some way connected to and being adversely affected by a suppressive person. Such a person is called a potential trouble source because he can be a lot of trouble to himself and to others."[3] PTSs are said to make up 17.5% of the population.[4]

when you are a SP your family has to " Disconnect"

Disconnection, when used in Scientology, is a term used to describe the severance of all ties between a Scientologist and a friend, colleague, or family member deemed to be antagonistic towards Scientology. The practice of disconnection is a form of shunning.[1] Among Scientologists, disconnection is viewed as an important method of removing obstacles to one's spiritual growth. In some circumstances disconnection has ended marriages and separated children from their parents.[2][3][4][5][6] The Church of Scientology has repeatedly denied that such a policy exists,[7][8][9] though as of May 2011 its website acknowledges the practice and describes it as a human right.[10] In the United States, the Church has tried to argue in court that disconnection is a constitutionally protected religious practice.

ST. Circumstance said...

when the Church declares someone SP- their family HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO DISCONNECT OR BE SP AS WELL

they have mostly all grown up and been in the Church all of their life's..

they do not get paid anything or even have ID's....

75% of them dont drive

They have no means to leave.. and nowhere to go in almost all cases as they have been raised in the church and everyone they know is involved

Being declared SP or getting disconnected leaves them broke with no skills and on the street

Evil

they have their own army called the Sea org... to join you have to sign a BILLION YEAR CONTRACT...

I am not joking...

they think you will be around that long...

ST. Circumstance said...

And ill leave the subject like this..

almost all of the poeple who got this going in the 50's and 60's had no idea this was the case...

they were good people who wanted to help the world and planet...
'they had money and gave it, and had families and included them...

they were duped - tricked and robbed... many lost their loved ones in one way or another...

and that to me is as Evil as it gets

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ST. Circumstance said...

yeah Katie- like Charlie - a few have noticed how weird and walked away...

But I have left out one really important thing which will answer a question many of you have...

Why haven't I heard about this before??

The first reporter who ever covered this was put in jail for a crime she was set up for...

they sent someone to D.C. area to work for a politician who was against them- then had that person coordinate with another to set him up in a car accident...

They have endless cash and they have this...


he term Fair Game is used to describe policies and practices carried out by the Church of Scientology towards people and groups it perceives as its enemies. Founder L. Ron Hubbard established the policy in the 1960s, in response to criticism both from within and outside his organization.[1][2] Individuals or groups who are "Fair Game" are judged to be a threat to the Church and, according to the policy, can be punished and harassed using any and all means possible.[1][2][3] In 1968, Hubbard officially canceled use of the term "Fair Game" because of negative public relations it caused, although the Church's aggressive response to criticism continued.[1]

Applying the principles of Fair Game, Hubbard and his followers targeted many individuals as well as government officials and agencies, including a program of covert and illegal infiltration of the IRS and other U.S. government agencies during the 1970s.[1][2] They also conducted private investigations, character assassination and legal action against the Church's critics in the media.[1] The policy remains in effect and has been defended by the Church of Scientology as a core religious practice.[4][5][6]

ST. Circumstance said...

People who are deemed enemies of the church shall be punished and harassed by...

" All and any means possible"

sunset77 said...

Thanx for this post. I always wondered who the guy was with the mask on the Geraldo episode.

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ST. Circumstance said...

Bruce was in London working briefly for Scientology when Pugh was killed..

Bruce was a suspect in the killing of 2 scientologists in L.A. whom he allegedly knew at least one of

Charlie has Scientology training and has been placed at at least one Scientology center after arriving in L.A....

what or if that means anything- one can only ponder???

Tex has two online books

in one he says Charlies views were a mix of this that and the other- but he includes Scientology in the mix

in the other book- he says he never heard Charlie talk about Scientology or the process...

so like everything else- it is going to have to be mostly speculation...

none of the victims seemed to have anything to do with it- but forever- Celebrities have been involved. they build "Celebrity Centers" the largest being in , of course, in L.A...

but again if there were any revenge motives...

wouldn't fair game at least have to be considered???

even if Charlie just learned the concept through them???

and repeated it to easily persuaded youngsters later????

ST. Circumstance said...

Alright- I get the hint

good nite

:)

sunset77 said...

Hi Katie, thanx for your comment, I need to read this blog more.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Sunset!
Welcome to the Blog!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I love it, when Saint gets immersed in a subject.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Well... I was without electricity all freakin' day.

I ate a cold tuna fish sandwich for dinner.

For no apparent reason... no storm, nothing,... the power died.
Maybe someone ran into a utility pole, with their car?

Sucks...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"EVIL"

This is a very interesting topic.

How does one quantify evil?

As Saint suggested:
Is a person's level of "evil" quantified by the "body count" left in their wake, sorta speak?
Is it the amount of destruction they've accomplished... and their ability to negatively effect (the most) lives, our yardstick?
"He with the most lives and relationships destroyed wins"?

OR... as Leary kinda suggested:
Is "EVIL" an abstract quality within a man's heart?
Can a man be truly evil (or most evil)... even if he hasn't the ability to "effect", a large group?

I.E.:
If a man is MOST evil in his heart... yet, hasn't the where-with-all or circumstances (for whatever reason) to impose his evil on many people... is he still most evil?

That's a tough question.

I find myself agreeing with both yardsticks.

On the one hand... entities such as Scientology and Nazism are/were clearly evil on a GRAND scale.
The "misery toll" alone, is testimony and evidence of that fact.
VERY Evil shit.

On the other hand...
I do sincerely believe that "Evil" is very much, a quality within a man.

I mean...
A man could be VERY evil in character... yet because of different variables, such as... lack of intelligence... lack of infuence... period in history... lack of financial means... be unable to leave a large wake of destruction behind himself.
Does that make him less "evil" inside?

If someone is "less effective" as an evil person, does that actually make them less evil?
OR...
Is it the intangible hate in one's heart, which is to be measured?
Can a man be ineffectual at imposing evil on a grand scale... yet rotten to the core, inside?

...and, what if I guy like Hitler (for the sake of discussion) was truly mentally ill, and earnestly believed he was doing a good deed?
The destruction count would remain equal... but, would he be truly "evil" inside, from an ethical standpoint?

I think what we have here, is this:
Evil from an ethical standpoint VS evil from a legal (culpability) standpoint.

I think "potential to be dangerous" is easier to gauge than level of "evilness".

But then again... who knows?

I could be full of shit. LOL

Lynyrd Psychology/Sociology 101!

TomG said...

You're thinking too hard.

Our Catholic teaching is that evil is the sum of opposition, which experience shows to exist in this universe, a deviation from the moral order to the desires and needs of individuals. Which of course will always fall short.

I hope I made that clear.

MrPoirot said...

ST. Circumstance said...
Please notice on that page on the site above the police report it says the following :



The part that is covered up at the bottom describes the maggots crawling on the counters and the bowl of shit that was in the fridge along with the shit being smeared on the fridge and along the floor.

This paperwork shows the true living conditions at the ranch. These were not clean people. This destruction was NOT caused by the police.

For supposedly loving the children, and putting them above all else, they sure had a funny way of showing it.

July 22, 2012 12:44 PM
(end quote)



Poirot replies:

There is a direct reply by Clem to the filth accusations after the Aug 10 or 16 raid. I cannot quote it but Clem directly disputes the accusations made by police about the filth. The filth accusation partly contributed to Shorty's murder.

There seems to be duplicitous info floating about concerning whether or not the kitchen was clean. There are numerous descriptions about the detail the girls went in decorating the bus and the saloon that was closed down. There are also pics I've seen of the kitchen showing a crude but neat kitchen with nothing out of order.

The feces in the fridge story is most likely a creation of the LAPD since they were sick and tired of trying to get anything done about complaints recieved about Spahn Ranch. Judges were releasing everyone they busted everytime. I feel sure there was immense animosity towards The Family by police. I doubt you can feed 30-40 people every day for dinner and have time to put a bowl of feces in the fridge.

MrPoirot said...

Oops I meant LASO not LAPD.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

""Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls."
Tom G


Still, one of the coolest comments to ever hit this blog... and still posted in the sidebar.
I think it summarizes what Saint C was saying earlier, quite well.

Lynn said...

Even if Spahn was clean, it had to have been dusty and not ideal conditions. Living in So. Cal, in the foothill of the mountains, there is always dust (even 5 minutes after dusting...it just magically appeaars).

I used to work for a company that was Scientology based (although it was not touted as that) and it was frightening. As in all religions, there are good people and then there are those that are fanatics. I have seen what fanatics can do.

This is probably one of the most interesting comparisons in Scientology. I read this many years ago in a Parade magazine. It ties Parsons (JPL), Crowley and Hubbard together.

http://www.bariumblues.com/jpl.htm

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fiona1933 said...

For evil, I'd recommend "One Of Your Own" the Life and Death Of Myra Hindley. If you're not familiar, this case is nearly as fascinating as Manson. In the early 60s, Myra and her boyfriend Ian Brady abducted and murdered 5 young people, burying them on the moors in their own private cemetery, having picnics on the graves, taking photos (one of which helped the cops to find a body) , each murder commemorated by Ian giving Myra a current hit record, so if they ever whistled the tune in public it would be like a secret code. And they were the ultimate 'slippies': no-one suspected a thing. Brady says Myra murdered 10 year-old Lesley Ann Downey with a length of silk cord which she used to like to toy with in public. And they also taped the little girl's screams and pleadings: you can read the transcript, if you can stand it, and Myra is clearly heard threatening the child. Abducted on Boxing Day, from a fair, forced to pose mnaked, raped, strangled and buried in a shallow grave.

But after a few years in jail, Hindley began to claim she was innocent. That Brady forced her to abduct the kids, that she never killed any or saw them killed, she didn't know where the bodies were, She didn't do any of it. And she had lots of supporters who believed her. At time of conviction, only 3 murders were known, two more strongly suspected, but Myra denied all knowledge of them for 20 years, even to the anguished mothers begging to know if their kids were dead. Not until Brady decided to confess did Myra try to pre-empt him and do it first, lot of support lost then after 20 years of lies.

ST. Circumstance said...

Sigh...

some really great people out there huh??

fiona1933 said...

So. total discrepancy. Brady says she revelled in the killings, Myra said she was under terrible duress and fear, plus she was obsessed with Brady, worshipped his dark personality. She feared to lose him so she complied. But anyway, he beat, raped and humiliated her, threatened her family, and he did the killings, buried the kids and photoed the graves, she had an 'innocent, inexperienced, virginal heart' given to Ian. Brady says she was the one who gave him confidence, he did not corrupt her (even those who hated Myra believed Ian did that) she made him feel he could do evil, it was exciting and they had incredible sex after killing. They were a team, with a private world, outwardly normal, inwardly 'demon folk'. and for 6 years after conviction, Myra wrote to Ian, tried to get to see him, wrote stories about killing children and raping them, asked her mother for copies of certain Moorland photos, also for a copy of the record "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue" which marked the last killing. And there she is on the tape, telling little Lesley: "shut up or I'll hit you one" And she took the secret of the last missing boy to her grave. keith Bennet is still on the moors and cannot be found. Myra refused to be hypnotised, doubtless she feared being asked about Lesley's death. She claimed to have waited in the bathroom while Ian raped and killed her.

Can a person like that change and be forgiven? Myra's supporters said yes, she was no longer evil.She should be released (she never was).

But one woman said and I thought this was good: "there are strands of moral deformity that cannot be pardoned". Myra had hoped to recruit this woman to her cause, but when Yvonne asked her how she could have taken a 10 year old off the streets, Myra said "She shouldn't have been out so late at night". She had no remorse. She saw herself as the victim. She said she didnt know the infamous tape was being made and if she had, she would have watched what she said. The tape "wasn't so bad" she thought. Lesley is screaming, begging them to "please, mummy, daddy, please take your hands off me...I want to go home...I'll get killed if I don't..I can't breathe..you're hurting me.."

Can something like this ever be forgiven? could it be true that Myra acted under duress? there are similarities with the Manson girls story. Really recommend the book.

fiona1933 said...

http://www.freewebs.com/carolannduffypoems/The%20Devil%27s%20Wife.htm

this is a great poem about Hindley

fiona1933 said...

The Devil's Wife
1. Dirt
The Devil was one of the men at work,
Different. Fancied himself. Looked at the girls
in the office as though they were dirt. Didn’t flirt.
Didn’t speak. Was sarcastic and rude if he did.
I’d stare him out, chewing on my gum, insolent, dumb.
I’d lie on my bed at home, on fire for him.
I scowled and pouted and sneered. I gave
as good as I got till he asked me out. In his car
He put two fags in his mouth and lit them both.
He bit my breast. His language was foul. He entered me.
We’re the same, he said, that’s it. I swooned in my soul
We drove to the woods and he made me bury a doll.
I went mad for the sex. I won’t repeat what we did.
We gave up going to work. It was either the woods
or looking at playgrounds, fairgrounds. Coloured lights
in the rain. I’d walk around on my own. He tailed.
I felt like this: Tongue of stone. Two black slates
for eyes. Thumped wound of a mouth. Nobody’s Mam.

fiona1933 said...

2. Medusa
I flew in my chains over the wood where we’d buried
the doll. I know it was me who was there.
I know I carried the spade. I know I was covered in mud.
But I cannot remember how or when or precisely where.
Nobody liked my hair. Nobody liked how I spoke.
He held my heart in his fist and he squeezed it dry.
I gave the cameras my Medusa stare.
O heard the judge summing up. I didn’t care.
I was left to rot. I was locked up, double-locked.
I know they chucked the key. It was nowt to me.
I wrote to him every day in our private code.
I thought in twelve, fifteen, we’d be out on the open road.
But life, they said, means life. Dying inside.
The Devil was evil, mad, but I was the Devil’s wife
which made me worse. I howled in my cell.
If the Devil was gone then how could this be hell?

fiona1933 said...

3. Bible
I said No not me didn’t I couldn’t u wouldn’t
Can’ remember no idea not in the room.
Get me a Bible honestly promise you swear.
I never not in a million years it was him.
I said Send me a lawyer a vicar a priest.
Send me a TV crew send me a journalist.
Can’t remember not in the room, send me
a shrink where’s my MP send him to me.
I said Not fair not right not on not true
not like that. Didn’t see didn’t know didn’t hear.
Maybe this maybe that not sure not certain maybe.
Cant remember no idea it was him it was him
Can’t remember not in the room.

4. Night
In the long fifty-year night,
these are the words that crawl out of the wall:
When morning comes,
I will finally tell.
Amen.

5. Appeal
If I’d been stoned to death
If I’d been hung by the neck
If I’d been shaved and strapped to the Chair
If an injection
If my peroxide head on the block
If my tongue torn out at the root
If from ear to ear my throat
If a bullet a hammer a knife
If life means life means life means life
But what did I do to us all? To myself
When I was the Devil’s wife?

ST. Circumstance said...

Fiona - are you putting some sort of spell on me???

:)

I will read this

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Headline:
"Colorado shooting suspect, appears dazed in court"

Maybe if the bailiff put a bullet in his f#cking head, he'd seem less dazed?

That's the first thought, that immediately popped into my mind.

Don't mind me...

katie8753 said...
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ST. Circumstance said...

Here is what you should really pay attention to in all of this...

do you know what those in charge did?

Those who could make a real statement..

Not- we will donate part of the proceeds

Not- we will suspend the movie...

Nope lol

They decided out of respect to make us wait a week to hear how much dough they made off the movie...

they suspended box office results for one week...

how gracious

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

WASHINGTON — Sally Ride, who blazed trails into orbit as the first American woman in space, died Monday of pancreatic cancer. She was 61.

Ride rode into space on the space shuttle Challenger in 1983 when she was 32. After her flight, more than 42 other American women flew in space, NASA said.

"Sally was a national hero and a powerful role model. She inspired generations of young girls to reach for the stars," President Barack Obama said in a statement.

NASA Administrator Charles Bolden, a former astronaut, said Ride "broke barriers with grace and professionalism — and literally changed the face of America's space program."

"The nation has lost one of its finest leaders, teachers and explorers," he said in a statement.

Ride was a physicist, writer of five science books for children and president of her own company. She had also been a professor of physics at the University of California in San Diego.

She was selected as an astronaut candidate in 1978, the same year she earned her doctorate in physics from Stanford University. She beat out five women to be the first American female in space. Her first flight came two decades after the Soviets sent a woman into space

Ride flew in space twice, both times on Challenger in 1983 and in 1984, logging 343 hours in space. A third flight was cancelled when Challenger exploded in 1986. She was on the commission investigating that accident and later served on the panel for the 2003 Columbia shuttle accident, the only person on both boards.

The 20th anniversary of her first flight also coincided with the loss of Columbia, a bittersweet time for Ride, who discussed it in a 2003 interview with The Associated Press. She acknowledged it was depressing to spend the anniversary investigating the accident, which killed seven astronauts.

Mary said...

Not to change the subject - but I went to StarCity podcasts to listen to our very own Katie...however, the podcast was not up yet so I started listening to other segments. Good night...very entertaining and knowledgeable. I will probably be up all night listening to all the segments to catch up. Gotta remember to catch this live on Sundays.

Katie - can't wait to hear you!

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

HI MARY!! I know the podcast isn't up yet. Not sure why.

I think you would enjoy the show on Sundays. Please stop by next Sunday!!! :)

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
matt prokes said...

why give your money to any lawyer?!?
use your library card if you've got one,most states have an online system which lets you order any book from any library in the state they'll deliver it right to your local library.
its a very cool way to read and watch dvds for nothing.

matt prokes said...

off topic i know but i just watched season three of 'breaking bad'from the library.
two thumbs up!

MrPoirot said...

Does anybody know how Susan Bartell got in the Family?
Supposedly she joined after the Tate murder and was arrested in the Aug 16 raid on the Ranch. That is an amazingly bad time to join if true.
Anybody know much about her arrival?

leary7 said...

Funny, I was wondering about her too, Mr P. I'd love to see updates on folk like her and Madeline Jo and other fringe or not core members.

NOt to belabor a point but I still would love to see more discussion about the concept of evil.
Let's say someone was going to do a art piece the Mount Rushmore of Evil. Who would be up there? What four figures from the 20th Century?

Hitler, of course. And you would think Stalin since he killed so many. But we was an allie during WWII and he didn't really effect Americans that much. I doubt an American vote would get him elected.
I think our man Charlie might actually come in second. Then maybe Oswald and maybe one of the serial killers, Bundy or Gacy or Dahmer or such.
But the point is Charlie just might be voted the second most evil person of the last century. That is truly amazing when you think of what a two-bit loser con man he was/is and how there is a good chance he never killed anyone with his own hands.
Still, next to his idol Adolph, Manson IS THE FACE OF EVIL. I wonder if he digs that fact, if he gets off on it.
No doubt there are hundreds and even thousands more inherantly evil than Charlie. He just played the part to perfection.

beauders said...

bartell joined the family during the summer of 1968 and may have been a former roommate of susan atkins.

MrPoirot said...

Thanks for answering Beauders. Bartell is usually seen in many pics and films but was not as lethal as a some of the other girls. It is difficult to figure her roll since she was not as prone to violence.

ST. Circumstance said...

Bartell isnt mentioned much in any of the books- but is all over the Manson Ducmentary...

she is a puzzle to me as well- I actually think she is kind of cute in a way. I was always curious with her story myself...

not much to find out there on her

ST. Circumstance said...

Peace :)

katie8753 said...

Matt you're right. You can rent DVDs at the library for free. The ones in my local library are usually 10 years old though.

Peace St!!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint C...

What was the name of that film containing live footage of Ken Kesey's bus trip?
You mentioned it, about a year ago...

I'm wondering if MattP can get me a bootleg copy, from one of the torrent sites. LOL

I still, have yet to watch it.

matt prokes said...

is it ken keseys magic trip?
if so heres a link to a site you can download it from
http://www.mediafiremovieaz.com/movies/magic-trip-2011-brrip-675mb-1829.html

mind you i havent tried to download it myself but mediafires a pretty reliable server and since its a movie chances are you'll have to download 10 or 12 parts and join them together...but i can let you know how to do that if need be.
also you might want to seach the library system.there is a copy in rhode island but that won't do you much good where you're at

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Matt you freakin' ROCK!
Case Closed!

katie8753 said...

Wow that was quick!

Matt is the "go to" man! LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I can't figure out, how to download the movie. LOL

I'll figure it out later...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Actually... that's a good point Matt.

I'll check my local library network tonight.

They'll probably have it.

I'll reserve it... pick it up, when it comes in... and then copy the whole thing onto my computer...

Yeah, yeah... that's what I'll do! LOLOL

sunset77 said...

I just seen a comment here about a film about Ken Kesey's bus trip? I've never heard of it. However I found a link to what I think is the film, I have it playing in another tab right now:

http://www.gsmovies.com/movie.php?id=14230

"Magic Trip (2011)

Genres: Documentary

Year: 2011

Director: Alex Gibney / Alison Ellwood

Cast: Bob Weir / Phil Lesh / Jane Burton / Paula Sundsten / Ram Dass / Ken Babbs / Kathy Casamo / The Grateful Dead / Neal Cassady / Jerry Garcia / Allen Ginsberg / Jack Kerouac / Ken Kesey / Timothy Leary / Stanley Tucci"

I think that's it.

sunset77 said...

I found a link to the Ken Kesesy documentary:

http://www.gsmovies.com/movie.php?id=14230

If this comment is a duplicate, please delete it. I'm having a bit of trouble posting, "captcha", moderation and such I think.

matt prokes said...

don't start a parade for me too quickly...i just clicked through the download links and came to this
'The key you provided for file download was invalid. This is usually caused because the file is no longer stored on Mediafire. This occurs when the file is removed by the originating user or Mediafire'
so in english the links were taken down by the uploader for some reason.
but you can try here
http://www.1channel.ch/watch-2726013-magic-trip
theres a bunch of links towards the bottom of the page don't know if they're free or not.
heres a site that has the movie as well and as far as i can tell the links are free
http://www.divxturka.net/download/1570617-magic-trip-2011-limited-docu-dvdrip-xvid-psychd.html

matt prokes said...

but the library is always your best option for stuff like this,so yeah check that out first

matt prokes said...

i'm sure some library in your state has it...if not take a magic trip to rhode island

katie8753 said...

Well, off topic, but they started burying the victims in Colorado.

I think this is so sad....

These people go to the theater to watch a world premier movie. They stand in line to buy their over-priced tickets, then get in the lobby and go to the concession stand.

There they buy the over-priced popcorn and other candies. You can't specify buttered popcorn anymore, you have to go to the sidebar and squirt this yellow liquid all over your popcorn, and try to incorporate it. And I guarantee you that if you squirt too much, it gets on your clothes. Then you add some salt and shake it up.

I always get a Nestle's Crunch Bar. Can't watch a movie without a Nestle's Crunch.

Anyway, they settle into their seats, waiting to watch the movie, and are soon mowed down by some psycho realist who decided that he was tired of being in school and the chicks didn't dig him.

Sigh....and now some of them don't exist anymore.

As my grandma used to say: "Ahhh...This World and One More....."

katie8753 said...

One victim was only 6 years old.

Please people, in all our disagreements...remember these victims.

Maybe our squabbles aren't so big....

Peace Out!!!

katie8753 said...

This is from Bretg. Enjoy again!!!

Night all!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O39hxypBwNY&feature=mr_meh&list=LLP59i4xh8VcH0FGLZJ92Mbg&playnext=0

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Sunset77's link worked great.

I made a new thread... and posted the entire film for everyone's enjoyment.

Thanks Sunset!!

tracey brown said...

Hi there
I have several pieces of Partees work I inherited from my mom who bought them in the seventies in Santa rosa. Would you know where I can sell some if them?

Thanks

Unknown said...

This is a little late to chime in on. I'm not a great writer so you will have to excuse that. I think it's rude and disrespectful to talk about others in such a derogatory manor. "Correctly judging them as losers"? What gives you the right to deem them as such? You don't know them. Did you refer to them as "animals"?. They are indeed humans and some of us who are reading these sites are here not to hear shaming but to piece together bits of their past and discover and understand relatives or friends. I personally am the daughter of one of those "losers". You and skynard could stand to take a step back and realize these are people. Not just fictional characters in some shitty old horror movie. - H