Friday, June 22, 2012

StarCity Radio will be interviewing Stephen Kay this Sunday at 8pm. http://starcityradio.com/tlbradio.html
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My two cents on the Motive Discussion
which has ensued (in the comments section of this thread).
Weigh-in Folks!
Polanski states cautiously (during his lie detector test) that Sebring "may have had a job delivering drugs" ... and that Voytek had been "sniffing cocaine for at last two years".

Starship has (also) clarified other drug-motive information within the comments section.

Starship States:
"where there's smoke there is usually fire. The Canadians were the very first suspects for Cielo. I hate typing on the fly without sources but I think even Bugliosi has it that VF was experimenting with MDA that very weekend because he was expecting to conclude a deal with the Canadians so that he could lock up the MDA distribution business in SoCal. Rumors about Jay being burned for 20 grand worth of coke, plus he owed tons of money. Joel Rostau delivers drugs to Jay and VF just hours before the murders, is supposed to get more but doesn't...and he ends up dead in the trunk of a car at Kennedy Airport in NY in an apparent mob hit just four months later.
That's alot of smoke. So although you may object about some of them being labelled 'dealers' they certainly seemed to be dealing with drugs one way or the other, which may have led to this nastiness.
Now, I agree with you about the LaBiancas. There is lots of talk about it, but no proof. Leno owed money. Rosemary had money. But that's it".


In regards to drugs at Tate, there is smoke from various independent sources... and they all have Frykowski as suspect one, and Sebring as suspect two. 
There's certainly enough sources and smoke, to make the drug motive (at Tate) worthy of consideration and close inspection.

As for Hinman, (to my knowledge), most of the sources who have Gary pegged as a drug dealer, are primarily the perpetrators.  That makes me skeptical.

As for LaBianca, (in my opinion), one has to consider Leno's heavy gambling debts.
It's well documented in the homicide reports, that Leno was a raging horse gambler and his debts were large.

Can I prove anything... No.

It's also possible as Leary and TomG have suggested before, that these murders were simply acts of complete madness... perpetrated for no practical reason(s).
As Tom once said concisely:
"Think long, think wrong".

Leary and Tom have both (essentially) suggested, that we've all overthought this whole thing.
I believe their assertion/theory is just as valid (and possible) as any.

BUT...
If one would pursue a practical path/motive... I've always adhered to a drug motive for Tate... and a gambling motive for LaBianca. 
There's simply more "smoke" (and documentation) along those paths than any other...

My next motive choice for Tate, is very basic:
Charlie is bitter and torched over the whole music scene--Melcher--Hollywood concept.
In this theory, Manson is bitter (in general) as it were, with "Hollywood pigs"... etc.
This theory basically goes hand-in-hand with Leary and Tom's bare-bones mindset... which is general bitterness for bitterness sake.
And, I do believe Manson was (and still is) a very bitter bastard... even though he tries unceasingly (and quite convincingly with many) to hide it.

My two cents...

To Recap:

I think there's really only 2 routes one can go with this.

Route #1:
Look for a practical motive for both locations, which leads one (in my estimation) to drugs at Cielo and Leno's gambling debts at Waverly.

OR

Route #2:
Agree with Harold True, that "one cannot ascribe reason to crazy people"... and chalk it all up, to madness for madness sake.
This is actually not so far-fetched.
These acts were senseless.
Attempting to pinpoint sensible reasons for senseless acts, may very well be... as Harold True, Leary and TomG have advanced... a futile effort.

72 comments:

katie8753 said...

I'm looking forward to this interview. It should be really good. Thanks Lynyrd. And Thanks Brian & LC!!! :)

katie8753 said...

Well if you missed Star City Radio's show tonight you missed a good one.

Stephen Kay was the guest and he was very frank about a lot of things.

We talked about the Tex tapes, but we won't know anything until they are revealed.

A lot of people think that multiple murders are the result of Tex and others. But we still don't know for sure. It's all conjecture.

I'll say one thing about this guy. He has worked tirelessly for victims' rights, not making a dime off of it, but just ensuring that certain prisoners remain in prison.

I think he's a great guy! Thanks so much Brian & LC for a great show as usual! :)

katie8753 said...

BTW, Stephen said the account that Pat threatened him at the fence after her first parole hearing was untrue. Never happened. As I suspected. HA HA. FYI!

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

Sorry for the delete, I posted it twice.

He did say he had a date with Sandy, but found her unendurable because he was just too into herself (can you imagine that?). He bowed out. It was a "blind" date.

He said her Godmother arranged it when she was going to Hawaii.

I guess it's common to go to Hawaii when you live on the West Coast.

MrPoirot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MrPoirot said...

I really question his story about bowing out of the date with Sandy. I think he was a typical polite young man of his day who would not have been rude to a date even if she were a rude, self infatuated gal like Sandy. Particularly on a first date I doubt that S Kay would have risked offending the young lady particularly an arranged date. I suspect that he is ashamed to have dated such an infamous criminal character. If I were him i too might try to diminish my connection to a gal as screwed up as Sandy. I'm not suggesting Kay is lying. I suspect he is merely embarrassed at a meeting that he did not instigate.

Proteus said...

Poirot, did you hear the way he told it? He was 15 and she was 14 (or the other way round), and the 'date' was arranged by and in the presence of his and her mothers. He may have embellished the details slightly, but his claim to have not found her interesting and gone off to play football instead sounds about right to me.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey!
It's Proteus!

Where have you been hiding yourself brother?
Hope you're having a great summer!

Good to see you! : )

katie8753 said...

Mr. P., I think what he did was end the date early in a nice way.

I've done the same thing with blind dates. Except maybe not in such a nice way. LOL.

starship said...

I had a blind date once. Her seeing eye dog kept snapping at my foot.

starship said...

Brian Davis! Please upload the latest episodes for us ASAP. I'm sorry I can't get my act together enough to listen to you live.

katie8753 said...

>>>Starship said: I had a blind date once. Her seeing eye dog kept snapping at my foot.>>>

HA HA HA. I hate when that happens!

bob stinson said...

i like what brians doing,hes asking all the right questions with the right amount of respect for the guests and what i like best of all is after he gets an answer to a question i'll have a followup question in my head and sure enough thats his next question.
kudos also for using live questions from the people listening.

katie8753 said...

Hi Bob!

Well I'm Verklempt.

I can't imagine people thinking that ANY of the victims at HTLB were dealing drugs. But lots of people do. That's sad because it get us no where near the truth.....

There is NO evidence of that at all. I defy ANYONE to dispute that.

So any gooney bird that dreams that shit up is just licking at straws and gathering flies.

No truth at all.

I'll do a thread on that when I can. Kinda swamped now.

katie8753 said...

It just takes us further from the TRUTH every time....

starship said...

Katie,

For real?

katie8753 said...

Starship, there's no evidence that I know of that Gary H., Voytek, Jay or Abigail were dealing drugs (taking yes...dealing no). No one has been dumb enough to accuse Sharon or Steven P. of dealing drugs....not yet anyway.

No evidence that Rosemary or Leno were dealing OR taking drugs that I know of.

Shorty? Never heard of him dealing drugs either.

Am I missing something here????

MrPoirot said...

Frykowski and Hinman delt drugs. Lottsapoppa was also a drug dealer and Charlie shot him.

Frykowski's murder had NOTHING to do with drugs. He was just in the house the Family selected.

It is very possible that Hinman's murder was over a bad batch of mescaline. A friend of Hinmsan's in one book said that Hinman had developed a process that omitted two steps in the manufacturing process. This "omission" may have led to a a weakened batch.

Shorty was murdered for trying to rid Spahn Ranch of rats. For some reason I can not imagine, Shorty hadn't a single clue that the boys in the Family were dangerous. I don't think Shorty was at Spahn Ranch enough to see the real goings-on and criminal activity which were progressing at a faster and faster pace in spring/summer 1969. Shorty would leave Spahn's for work elsewhere. He did not stay full time at Spahn's. However, when his temporary gigs ended he always came back to Spahn's. Shorty was buddies with Clem who lived at Spahn's before Charlie arrived. I doubt Shorty could imagine a friend would kill him. But then, Shorty didn't know that Clem had morphed into a Charliopath.

starship said...

I don't know, Katie, where there's smoke there is usually fire. The Canadians were the very first suspects for Cielo. I hate typing on the fly without sources but I think even Bugliosi has it that VF was experimenting with MDA that very weekend because he was expecting to conclude a deal with the Canadians so that he could lock up the MDA distribution business in SoCal. Rumors about Jay being burned for 20 grand worth of coke, plus he owed tons of money. Joel Rostau delivers drugs to Jay and VF just hours before the murders, is supposed to get more but doesn't...and he ends up dead in the trunk of a car at Kennedy Airport in NY in an apparent mob hit just four months later.

That's alot of smoke. So although you may object about some of them being labelled 'dealers' they certainly seemed to be dealing with drugs one way or the other, whcih may have led to this nastiness.

Now, I agree with you about the LaBiancas. There is lots of talk about it, but no proof. Leno owed money. Rosemary had money. But that's it.

katie8753 said...

Starship, we know that the Canadians were supplying Voytek & Abigail with MDA, but I don't know that there was any proof that they wanted Voytek to distribute it.

Jay owed lots of money, but that doesn't mean he was dealing. He liked to spend money that he didn't have yet, and was always in debt. Sort of a champagne appetite with a beer wallet. He had the potential to have a lot of money but always seemed to be "a day late and a dollar short".

>>>Rumors about Jay being burned for 20 grand worth of coke>>>

And that is what these are...rumors...right?

I know for a fact that they were USING...but there really isn't any clear evidence that they were DEALING.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P., there is no proof that Hinman was dealing or making drugs that I know of.

Can you produce the proof?

katie8753 said...

I think that people like to make the motive complicated. They would love to blame the victims, just like they did back in 1969 when the murders first occurred. The media had these victims into all kinds of terrible things. Cult sacrifices, porno rings, heavy drug use. Then they found out it was a bunch of hippies that killed them.

To me the motive is very simple. Charlie was pissed off. He wanted everyone at Cielo dead. It wasn't to get money, because they barely got any.

Waverly? I still think it's possible that those murders had to do with Rosemary's daughter. I know I'm probably the only one who thinks that...but that's what I think.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Polanski states cautiously (during his lie detector test) that Sebring "may have had a job delivering drugs" ... and that Voytek had been "sniffing cocaine for at least two years"...

In regards to drugs at Tate, there is smoke from various independent sources... and they all have Frykowski as suspect one, and Sebring as suspect two.
There's certainly enough sources and smoke, to make the drug motive (at Tate) worthy of consideration and close inspection.

As for Hinman, (to my knowledge), most of the sources who have Gary pegged as a drug dealer, are primarily the perpetrators.
That makes me skeptical.

As for LaBianca, (in my opinion), one has to consider Leno's heavy gambling debts.
It's well documented in the homicide reports, that Leno was a raging horse gambler and his debts were large.

Can I prove anything... No.

It's also possible as Leary and TomG have suggested before, that these murders were simply acts of complete madness... perpetrated for no practical reason(s).

As Tom once said concisely:
"Think long, think wrong".
Leary and Tom have both (essentially) suggested, that we've all overthought this whole thing.
I believe their assertion/theory is just as valid (and possible) as any.

BUT...
If one would pursue a practical path/motive... I've always adhered to a drug motive for Tate... and a gambling motive for LaBianca.
There's simply more "smoke" (and documentation) along those paths than any other...

My next motive choice for Tate, would be the very basic:
Charlie is bitter and torched over the whole music scene--Melcher--Hollywood concept.
In this theory, Manson is bitter (in general) as it were, with "Hollywood pigs"... etc.
This theory basically goes hand-in-hand with Leary and Tom's bare-bones mindset... which is general bitterness for bitterness sake.
And, I do believe Manson was (and still is) a very bitter bastard... even though he tries unceasingly (and quite convincingly with many) to hide it.

My two cents...

To Recap:

I think there's really only 2 routes one can go with this.

Route #1:
Look for a practical motive for both locations, which leads one (in my estimation) to drugs at Cielo and Leno's gambling debts at Waverly.

OR

Route #2:
Agree with Harold True, that "one cannot ascribe reason to crazy people"... and chalk it all up, to madness for madness sake.
This is actually not so far-fetched.
These acts were senseless.
Formulating sensible reasons for senseless acts, may very well be... as Harold true, Leary and TomG have advanced... a futile effort.

MrPoirot said...

There's piles and piles of books telling of Hinman's mescaline manufacturing. Every book mentioning Hinman mentions his mescaline making hobby.

Tate and Labianca have the same motive-killing pigs. There's clouds of smoke about drug dealing at the Tate house but drugs had NOTHING to do with the Cielo attack. Drugs and gambling had NOTHING to do with the Labianca attack.

Shorty's murder had its own motive. He snitched.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P., Shorty told Ruby Pearl that he was afraid of the family. He was in the process of leaving for good when he was attacked from behind by some witless coward, and then beaten and stabbed to a pulp.

>>>There's piles and piles of books telling of Hinman's mescaline manufacturing. Every book mentioning Hinman mentions his mescaline making hobby.>>>

Really, and what are the names of these books?

TomG said...

Violence, more than often than not, is something that is ignited and spreads, rather than something that is planned and executed.

They were a crime family, they were anti-war in 1969, their friends were in jail, they didn't get their record deal, their leader was a convict with mental illness.......add to all of that, drugs and Coors beer....

Don't think like a citizen. Think like a tired 20 year old kid who needs a place to crash.....than you might understand all of this better!

katie8753 said...

>>>Tom said: Violence, more than often than not, is something that is ignited and spreads, rather than something that is planned and executed.>>>

True. And Charlie knew how to throw the lit match on the embers.

>>>They were a crime family, they were anti-war in 1969, their friends were in jail, they didn't get their record deal, their leader was a convict with mental illness.......add to all of that, drugs and Coors beer....>>>

They were anti-war??? Didn't know that. I thought they were pro-war. According to Sandy, "it was war"...them against the pigs.

>>>Don't think like a citizen. Think like a tired 20 year old kid who needs a place to crash.....than you might understand all of this better!>>>

A tired 20 year old kid? I don't think they were tired. Too much speed.

katie8753 said...

Some people claim that Charles Manson knew almost everyone in California and all points north.

Quite an accomplishment for some ex-con that was released from prison in 1967 and was re-arrested in 1969.

Talk about a "mover and shaker". Hoo hoo!!!!

He must have been shaking more hands and kissing more babies than RFK.

Seriously, if you break it down, this guy accomplished more than any other human being on this planet.

Does anyone else boast that they knew EVERYONE in a state, in 2 years?

WOW!!!

"I'd buy that for a dollar".

HA HA.

TomG said...
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TomG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

Oh, Mr. P. I think I know about the books on Gary Hinman you're talking about:

"How to Become Rich & Famous Writing A Story About a Dead Guy", by Cant G. Etup.

"A Depiction Into Madness, a Study on Gary Hinman", by Dr. Harry Arms.

"My Life As a Buddhist", by Air Head.

"Why Musicians Deal", by Bent Fingers.

"The Secret Life of Gary Hinman" by Canuse Sum Bucks.

"Do Music Teachers Teach Right?" by Lefty Deafear.

"Is the Cleft Symbol Real?" by Al Coholic.

"Does Music Release Me?" by I. P. Freeley.

"Are Musicians Really That Tough?" by Jock Strap.

"Musicians...then and now..." by Mike Crotch.

"Did My Mother Really Love Me?" by Skin Y. Ass.

"Did Gary's Drug Manufacturing Cause TLB?" by Dr. D. Mentia.

"I Did Gary Hinman's Last Tax Return" by I. Fleecum.

And last, but not least:

"Why couldn't I Learn The Bagpipes?" by Bonnie Suck Blow.

katie8753 said...

I didn't delete those comments, for once.

Just wanted everyone to know.

Hoo hoooooo.

TomG said...

I deleted those comments because I thought they were a tad bit too strong and didn't represent my best thinking.

If I were to have my best thinking I would probably say.....to be continued.....Peace Out.....good will to all y'all motherfuckers.

katie8753 said...

Oh wait, here's a few more books:

"When 2+2=4", by I. Add Up.

"Gary Hinman, My Secret Music Teacher", by I. Can See.

"Zen Buddishm and You...A Story of Gary Hinman", by Bobby Iza Liar.

"Did Gary Hinman Make Drugs? by R. U. Kidding?

katie8753 said...

Thanks Tom! Night! We'll do Chess tomorrow. HA HA!

TomG said...

Chess tomorrow sounds good!

katie8753 said...

Tom it's a date! Love ya!! S.W.A.K.!

Brian Davis said...

Lynyrd, Thank you for the post, friend ! You and your blog commentors and contributors continue be great, interesting TLB reads !

Katie, It is great having you with us on Sundays !
I continue to thank you for your support !

Bob Stinson, Thank you sincerely for those nice words !

Starship, I love reading your comments and the Kay podcast is now uploaded.

One thing about the Kay interview that did surprise me was how he thought Grogan was still a house painter and Sandra Good still lived near Manson.

This doesnt discredit Kay in anyway but it did surprise me how he said those so matter-of-factly.

And did anyone notice how well he knew those White Album lyrics ? ! LOL !

For anyone interested, as I mentioned, our Kay podcast is now posted at:

http://www.starcityradio.com/tlbradio

You can also find the link there to our complete podcast page.

Thank you all here at the LSB3 !

I enjoy the posts and comments !

katie8753 said...

Off subject for a sec, I hope St. Circumstance, Mary and any other Floridians are not having any damage to their homes from the tropical storm that is hitting the state. Lots of flooding, tornadoes and power outages from what I'm reading.

Course...I hope Casey Anthony is locked up in a trunk somewhere. LOL.

starship said...

Hey, everybody.

Does anybody have or know where to go to request a copy of the Hinman Homocide reports? That may give us insight into the synthetic drug angle.

We have Tate and LaBianca, why not get Hinman too.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Starship.

I'll look into it...

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd check your e-mail. :)

ST. Circumstance said...

I am fine thanks for asking Katie!!

Storm went around me-

:)

interesting post- good thoughts

katie8753 said...

Hi St! Glad you're okay.

Now we need to hear good news from Mary....

katie8753 said...

Hi Brian! Thanks for the link to the Kay Podcast!! :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Brian.

I'm sorry your comment took so long to post.

I'm supposed to receive email alerts, when there are new comments awaiting moderation.
For some reason, that "email alert" system has not been working reliably lately.
Your post was submitted at 1am... I got the email alert at 2pm today.
Google... go figure?
Sorry...

TomG said...

My take on the motive....

The telephone rang late in the afternoon at Spahn Ranch on August 9th. It might have even been blind ass George Spahn who answered the phone.

Is Charlie or Tex there? Bruce? A minute later Manson is on the phone. Sandy Good and Mary Brunner are in county jail or wherever they take people who get arrested for bad credit cards.

Charlie listens. And in his own impeccable way, mumbles, frahchechdoesamilla dumba francisca.

Which means, Honky fucks with me. I fuck with Honky.

Later in the evening, the Impala pulls out of the ranch, with a couple of dumb ass volunteers.

History isn't always so sexy, when you break it down.

The following night isn't so easy to explain, but I got a theory on that too!

Peace. Go Phillies.

katie8753 said...

Tom, it was a Ford...not a Chevy.

TomG said...

My bad.

TomG said...

But the point being, after you had 45 minutes or so of driving on the highway, and exiting into LA....into Beverly Hills or Laurel Canyon, I'm a New Jersey guy so I don't know that area...

shouldn't a voice of reason emerge from a carload (be it Ford or Chevy) of young people, that says what we are going to do is wrong and I WON'T DO IT!

Apparently not. Mystery.

katie8753 said...

Well a "normal" carload of kids would think it was wrong, but we're talking about a bunch of "brain-warshed" punks who thought Charlie was some kinda god that they needed to please.

TomG said...

But isn't that why we are here? What were you thinking in the worse minute of your life? What is different from us, than that bird on the wrong side of the Correctional Facility barbed wire fence?

I love hashing these things out.

leary7 said...

Lynyrd...I am not totally anti-drug theory. There was drug crap happening and whenever that is the case serious idiocy can take place.
But my motive theory is based on the concept of "blood atonement'. It is the concept that if one sins they have to pay with the shedding of their own blood. It is big in the Mormon world.
Charlie felt he was fucked with his whole life. He hated established society. So when Melcher fucked with him (in his eyes) and other stuff started coming down I just think he snapped and decided it was time for "the pigs to pay".
THe word "pig". written in blood at Gary's and TLB scenes is a key for me. And the fact that Pat took the time to carve the word "WAR" in Leno's stomach too. I simply can't believe the use of 'pig' and 'war' was happenstance. Until there is something substantial to say otherwise, I guess I will just go with my gut and think that Manson convinced his idiots that it was time for war. They had been playing at it for awhile.
Still, like you say, there are a thousand questions. But if there was other motives, why wouldn't Tex or Pat or Leslie own up to it? Wouldn't Tex stand a better chance of parole if he was carrying out a contract hit rather than randomnly killing innocents, including an unborn? Tex is never getting out, he has to know that. What motive would there be for him to perpetuate the Bug Fairy Tale?
I love a conspiracy as much as the next guy. I just don't see enough "meat" here to make a good sandwich.
Go BoSox. I am lovin the Nava/Middlebrooks Renasaince.

leary7 said...

Any understanding of TLB has to begin with watching the youtube interview of Squeaky done in the 80's I think were she says..."the killings were justified because the people doing them believed they were doing the right thing. And if you believe that then you are doing the right thing". Paraphrased obviously. I should try and link it but am techno challenged.
But that was the mindset. Ol Squeakmiester was still preaching it 15 years later. Those idiot kids in the car truly believed they were justified in doing what they did, every bit as much as McVie believed so and others like him. Hard to relate to or even comprehent, how you can justify killing children, but when the mind goes over the edge (ask the My Lai guys) anything can happen.

Venus said...

Ok, if we're going to discuss rumors, can we at least get the "facts" straight????? Jay was rumored to have been burned for $2000 worth of cocaine, NOT "20 grand." I have no idea if the rumors of any drug dealing are true or not, but at least get the rumors correct.

There are alsp people who try to connect Tex with Jay because Tex worked in a wig shop. Well, I've also worked retail jobs, but I'm not an heiress to the Wal-Mart family so just because they were sort of in the same business means nothing to me.

There are lots of ways we could connect these people. Until I see some sort of proof, I'm very wary of the rumors.

katie8753 said...

Venus, well said.

People like to say that Jay was a dealer because he was broke.

They also like to say that Rosemary was a dealer because she was rich.

You can't have it both ways....

People also like to say that Rosemary & Tex knew each other because they sold wigs.

First of all, Rosemary didn't sell wigs, and secondly, like you said, SO WHAT? Even if she did sell wigs (which she didn't), doesn't mean she knew Tex OR Jay.

I've said many times and I will continue to say...the victims at Cielo Drive & Waverly Drive DID NOT know the killers. Period.

Venus said...

Thanks Katie. I'm with you on this.

CarolMR said...

Venus, I was waiting for you to say something about Jay! It irks me that Roman, of all people, insinuated that Jay may have dealt drugs. And Roman knew that Voytek used cocaine for two years yet he let him and Gibby stay with Sharon? What a guy Roman was and is.
"To me the motive is very simple. Charlie was pissed off. He wanted everyone at Cielo dead. It wasn't to get money, because they barely got any.

Waverly? I still think it's possible that those murders had to do with Rosemary's daughter. I know I'm probably the only one who thinks that...but that's what I think." - katie

I agree with you, katie, on both your points.

beauders said...

katie, how do you know rosemary labianca didn't sell wigs?

starship said...

If it's $2000 then it's $2000. My bad. But this also leads to the Canadian dude being whipped and sodomized at Cass Elliott's house (some claimed Cielo)...rumor.

The Canadians and their associates were pretty bad-assed dudes, according to Peter Tork. Takes one to know one I suppose. Statman wrote that little Paul Tate made one of them freak, however. Pick your poison.

Tex sold wigs so perhaps he could have been connected to jay somehow...rumor.

Doesn't matter if Rosemary sold wigs or not, the rumor is that her shop and Tex's wig shop were located pretty close to one another.

Venus said...

Starship, it was said (in "Helter Skelter," I believe, but I'm not 100% sure) that the whipping story did not involve any of those at Cielo Drive. I'm pretty sure it was Mike McGann (cop) who said that.

While there are possibilities that Rosemary could be connected to Tex who could be connected to Jay, that's all they are....rumors. No one has ever come up with any sort of credible proof and until they do, I think this can all be filed under "rumors."

Venus said...

Carol, the majority of the rumors about Jay (his sex life, the drugs) came from Roman. Some "friend." What did his sex life have to do with the murders? From all accounts, the women had no complaints. :-)

If Roman was so upset with drug users, then yes, you have a point. Why would he let them stay in the house? It shouldn't even matter if Sharon was there or not, why did he let them stay there at all? It wasn't as if they didn't have the $ to go somewhere else.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I'm not taking sides here, and I'm not certain where these figures originate from...

But, assuming it was (in fact) $2000 (and I have no reason to doubt Venus)...

It's well worth noting (and remembering) however, that this was $2000 worth, of "1960's money"... not monopoly money.

The fact of the matter, is that... back then (in the 60's)... $2,000 was (in fact)... substantial.

Case in point:
You could purchase a very nice home in the 60's (in most parts of the country) for $14-18K.
Again... things vary by region... but, that's not an exaggeration.

My point:
$2,000 worth of drugs in late 60's, was no small baggie of pot.
That's not a "personal use" stash.

This is also why, I consider Leno's "$500 a day gambling habit" and well documented (I believe it was $43K total) gambling debt, no small pittance.

My two cents.... pun intended.

I once looked-up the average per capita income for 1968, and it really put things in perspective.
I can't remeber what that figure was... but, believe me, it wasn't much...

Venus said...

Lynyrd, you are correct, $2000 was a LOT of money for that era. The only reason I corrected it was because to go from $2000 to "20 grand" was an enormous leap.

beauders said...

the rumor is that rosemary brought drugs into the country in the wigs so it matters if she was importing wigs from mexico.

CarolMR said...

"If Roman was so upset with drug users, then yes, you have a point. Why would he let them stay in the house? It shouldn't even matter if Sharon was there or not, why did he let them stay there at all? It wasn't as if they didn't have the $ to go somewhere else." - Venus

That's something I will never understand, Venus.

leary7 said...

There is a word, one that rarely gets used in discussing motive and I suspect would be especially disdained by the Col and other conspiracy proponenets...it is the word DEVOTION.
I read recently a book called "Letters To Hitler" which was a compilation of letters found in a Kremlin archive from ordinary German citizens to Hitler. It is dumbfounding how many - not hundreds but thousands upon thousands - considered Hitler a god. They guy had chronic flatulance, liked to get pissed on during sex, and was a egomaniac. And yet he was worshiped.
It is also a fact that almost everyone of the dozen or so hardcore Manson Family members thought of Charlie as a god. They were without hesitation devoted to him.
Someone asked me recently why I maintained an interest in the TLB story. It isn't the gore, or the sex or anything like that. I am fascinated by the phenomonon of devotion - how it is created and sustained.
There are still, 45 years later, a few who are probably still devoted to Manson - Cappy and Squeaky and Sandy etx. And you wonder about Nancy and Ouish and Mary and such.
We tend to be dismissive of Manson and his antics, but there is no denying he inspired fierce devotion among some of his followers. And that devotion no doubt played a huge factor in the murders. I honestly believe the reason so many look for 'alternative' motives is that it is very difficult to relate to such devotion if one hasn't felt it themselves.

katie8753 said...

Carol, Roman didn't care about Voytek using drugs. He wasn't thinking of Sharon's safety. That was all just maudlin acting on his part to pretend to be the stricken widower. He's pathetic.

katie8753 said...

Leary, you're right. You call it "blind devotion", I call it "brainwarshing".

And it doesn't matter if it's on the major scale of Hitler or Manson, or on the smaller scale of some girl trying to get her boyfriend to off her parents so she can get their money.

When any person has so much control over another person, there's bound to be trouble.

Charlie had complete control over his "family". He told the girls on August 8th "go with Tex and do whatever Tex says".

You know that guy was pretty smart. He was already blaming Tex before the murders even happened. Before the old Ford even got started. He told the girls to do what Tex said. So in essence, Tex is to blame, not Charlie.

How many times have we heard Charlie on You Tube saying that he didn't have any idea what Tex was going to tell them. BULLSHIT. He knew exactly, because he's the one who told Tex.

Same with the 2nd night. Charlie was right there, telling Tex what to do.

Charlie thought he'd figured it all out. It's too bad that he didn't figure on a jury of 12 people who weren't "brainwarshed". HA HA.

katie8753 said...

The girls were minding Charlie...not Tex.

Venus said...

Katie, I LOOOOOOOVE your post on June 30th at 9:02 pm. BRAVO!