Tuesday, November 8, 2011

Mr. Poirot said:
"A good "what if" would be if Charlie escaped capture in the DV raid.  If everyone had gotten busted EXCEPT Charlie, then he would have held out a long time eating rattlesnake and crickets. Would the police have gone after him?  Without Charlie the whole helter skelter saga doesn't exist.  Charlie could have become a lone hermit in Death Valley living under the radar for years after the rest of the killers were convicted.  Only Geraldo could ever have found him".

Hmm...
I have to say Poirot, that's a pretty good "what if"... and a very large one.  That's a tough, multi-faceted, and complex hypothetical.  It raises several key questions. One could launch an entire blog, based solely on that "turn of events"... and it's implications.  I must be crazy for touching this... but, I'll give it a shot...

Big Question #1)
Would the police have gone after Manson?
I think we have to back-up, and ask ourselves why Bugliosi was so determined to bring Charlie down (in the first place).  Which is another great question on it's own... but, I digress...

Anywho... Bugliosi based his entire case around prosecuting Manson... AND... Bug even took a chance of blowing his case against the other defendants in-so-doing. 
I mean, let's face it... if Bugliosi didn't prosecute Manson... his job against the other defendants would have been markedly easier... and more importantly, more assured.  Bottom line... Bugliosi in essence, "went out of his way" to get Charlie... which actually begs the question WHY? 
Irregardless of the WHY... the fact that Bugliosi was so "hot" to bring Manson down... I'd answer YES to the police question. 
I think it's likely (assuming Bugliosi was still prosecutor)... the police would have gone looking for Manson.  Heck... Bugliosi even had Harold True brought-in, and arrested! 
I think it's pretty safe to assume, Bugliosi would have persuaded the police to go after Manson.  Bugliosi certainly stopped at nothing else... and as I said... made his job as a prosecutor much harder… going after Manson in the first place.
My final vote on your "hypothetical question" regarding the police, is this:
Assuming Bugliosi was still prosecuting the case... the  police would have gone after Manson.  Bugliosi would have pushed for it.  History shows, that Bugliosi spared nothing in his pursuit of Manson, and based on that track record, I cast my vote.

Big Question #2)
Would they have found Manson?
My personal guess... (and I can only guess like anyone else)... is that, they definitely would have found Manson.  I base that opinion on Manson's track record.
Firstly... Manson was caught at every crime he ever committed. LOL  The guy really was not that successful as a criminal, if you really look at it.  It's true Manson "got-off easy" many times... had nine lives in some regards... and had a great deal of luck after being caught (again, many times)... but, he was usually caught.

Secondly (and more importantly)... at the end of the day... I think Manson would've had a hard time staying completely isolated on the outside.  I think (on the outside) he liked being around people... and, also needed people out of necessity.  Manson needed people to exploit.  He really wasn't a truly self-sufficient guy on the outside.  He literally exploited others to survive.  He had no free meal ticket, like in prison.
Manson would have come out of hiding to rob a gas station... raid a dumpster... steal a car... or some other stupid petty crime, and they would have picked him up for sure. 
That's my GUESS(ES) on the outcome of that complex, yet interesting "hypothetical" of yours, Poirot.

82 comments:

MrPoirot said...

Manson nearly did evade capture in that Death Valley raid. That would have enabled him to direct the traffic in the murder trials from a remote mountaintop location using Squeaky, Sandra and others to relay commands back to the LA courthouse using a secret communication route. Charlie could have ordered more hits on celebrities from high atop his mountain hiding place. Perhaps Charlie could have achieved his goal of starting armageddon.

MrPoirot said...

It's very likely that Charlie would have kept ordering random murders in LA until all the Family were released. It would have been very messy indeed with Charlie at large.

I can see Charlie sending smoke signals from high atop his mountain to communicate to Squeaky in Ballerat.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Poirot...
Far be it for me to judge... but I think you're swiftly moving from "Hypothetical" to "Complete Mindless Fantasy".

Mountain-top command post??
Achieving his goal of starting Armageddon????

Number one... his minions could NEVER keep their mouths shut on anything.
They would have led the police right to him.
Secondly... Charlie would have let his passions and stupidity rule him as always, and would've been picked-up within 4-6 weeks... for robbing a gas station, a car, or garbage diving.
The guy was not the genius some would have us believe.
Thirdly... the jig was up Poirot... the "family" was legally tied to MURDER... not drug sales, credit card fraud, burning a machine... the murder of several people.

As for Manson being successful at "starting Armageddon"... dude, you're starting to scare me. LOL

Armageddon?
Manson had a couple dozen little girls... and maybe 6 or so, loyal guys left... with Tex and Bobby already gone.
Are you cracked? LOL

The best they could have done, was kill a few more folks, and dug their hole even deeper.

Are you seriously saying that Manson had the means to enact a "Successful Armageddon"?
Have you ever looked-up the word Armageddon?

Nearly evading capture during a raid... and successfully launching Armageddon from a "mountain-top command post"... with a handful of girls who can't keep their mouth shut, are not even concepts in the same universe.

Wow...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Smoke signals"???

"Charlie would have kept ordering random murders in LA until all the Family were released"???

Yeah... that's what the police do... they release folks, when more murders are committed.

Poirot... I luv ya dude... but, you need some rest.
This is not one of your finer moments. LOLOL

MrPoirot said...

They did stuff far more crazy than anything I could imagine. Gypsy and others robbed that gun store to get 150 guns. They were going to hijack a 747 and kill one passenger every hour until their demands were met.
A Charlie at large would have been chaos. Eventually Charlie would have been shot on sight not arrested.

sbuch113 said...

If Manson escaped capture and was alone in the wilderness, he would have hiked into civilization and immediately drawn attention to himself by doing something stupid.

In my opinion Charlie Manson is an attention whore and a idiot.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thank You SBuch!

Poirot said:
>>>>"They were going to hijack a 747 and kill one passenger every hour until their demands were met".<<<<

Yeah... that was quite a genius fucking plan. LOL

Poirot... their "demands", were never going to be "met".
These idiots couldn't find their own ass, with both hands!

The only thing these fools had on their side, was the naivity of 60's society.
Once the murders took place, the "60's society" "sobered-up" quick, and these idiots were HAD.
OR... as Harold True said it best:
"These Yahoos couldn't poor piss from a boot, with the bottom labeled".

Poirot... if you think Manson had ANY options other than COMPLETE disappearance following a (hypothetical) "evasion of capture during the raid", you're crazy.

Manson was down to one fucking straw, and it was dis-appearance... and I can guarantee you (as SBuch said), he wasn't that smart.

starship said...

If CM had remained hidden in the cupboard under the sink at Barker...once everybody was gone, he could have really really focused on finding the bottomless pit.

Then, with no women around to help him propogate the 144,000, he would have just kicked back and relaxed, where he would remain today. Think of Tom Hanks in Cast Away. Only on a good day.

katie8753 said...

I agree with Lynyrd on both points. I think that Bugliosi would have pursued a case against Manson and they would have continued searching for him. I also think they would have eventually found him because he wasn't good at not getting caught.

Charlie needed attention, and would most likely have tried started another family somewhere else. I don't think he would have lifted a finger to get any of them out of jail or prison.

When Gypsy, et al, attempted the Hawthorne robbery, it was an attempt to get CHARLIE out. No one else. He was the only person that mattered.

Although Charlie's victims were extremely loyal to him, that door did NOT swing both ways. Cult leaders are narcissistic sociopaths. Nothing matters but the cult leader. Everyone else is expendable.

Mr. P., Charlie didn't really believe in the race war crap. That was just a story that he concocted to keep his "family" interested in him.

MrPoirot said...

Headlines would read:

HIPPIE CULT LEADER ESCAPES TO DESERT

Ballaerat: Despite a large police raid in Death Valley the leader of the killer band of hippies still roams free. Over 20 shabbily dressed members of a cult were arrested but the ring leader of the Tate-Labianca killings was not found. Police suspect he is hiding in an abandoned mine with a large cache of food and pot.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P. said: Headlines would read:

HIPPIE CULT LEADER ESCAPES TO DESERT>>>

HA HA HA. Col Paul Tate would don his fatigues and gather up canteens and long-range weapons and head to the desert.

Shoot first....ask questions later. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I have no issues with the possibility of that headline Poirot... it's not too far-fecthed.
I mean, it could have happened that way.
It's not complete fantasy.

It's your follow-up prediction of Manson commanding troops from a mountain-top post afterwards... using smoke signals... and the whole niner, where it gets bizarre.

I think there's really only two reasonable "follow-ups" to that headline.

1) Manson is never caught... in which case he'd have to get completely lost... gonzo.

2) Manson IS caught in fairly short order... and history doesn't change a whole lot.

If he stayed invloved... and committed more crimes... as you're strongly suggesting, he would have been caught.
In order to stay "at large", he would have had to divorce himself completely from the whole situation.

MrPoirot said...

More headlines:

BUGLIOSI FAILS TO SHOW IN COURT

Court officials fear the worst in the disappearance of the prosecutor in the trial of the three Tate Labianca murder suspects.

katie8753 said...

Here's a headline:

"Deputy DA Bugliosi sustained serious injuries today, when it was revealed that one of the Manson assailants managed to sneak into the courtroom and tie his shoelaces together, in a DOUBLE KNOT!"

HA HA.

MrPoirot said...

Lynyrd I threw in the smoke signals for a little joke.

A serious question though:

if Charlie had evaded capture at Death Valley and had remained at large for two years everything would have changed. Bug would not have been able to use the Helter Skelter motive without a Charlie sitting there in court to pin it on. It was obvious in court that Charlie ran the whole show and was evil incarnate. But if he was not involved in the arrests and trials who would believe that a guy 5'2" tall made 6'2" Tex Watson kill 7 people? Bug would not have called Crowe as a witness to show that Charlie was capable of violence if there were no Charlie in court. It's even possible that even Bug refused to believe the wild claims by Tex and the girls that a tiny elf-like man made all those young people commit savagery.

Remember that without Charlie in court everyday Bug would have to have created an imaginary straw dog to connect all the defendents. I believe Bug would have had no choice but to not even mention Charlie in the trials.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P. said: Remember that without Charlie in court everyday Bug would have to have created an imaginary straw dog to connect all the defendents. I believe Bug would have had no choice but to not even mention Charlie in the trials.>>>

Mr. P. you have good points.

He could definitely mention Charles Manson, and even give visages of him to the jury.

However, if Charlie had vanished, it would have been hard to pin the murders on him, because we probably wouldn't know that he was a pipsqueak con man because he would have disappeared like a puff of smoke. We wouldn't have had the advantage of seeing everyone follow him like mice after cheese.

However, this "what if" would not last, because, as Lynyrd and others have pointed out....Charlie would not have remained at large for long.

He's not good at crime. He always gets caught.

katie8753 said...

Charles Manson thinks he's two steps ahead of the "man" but in reality, he's two steps behind.

Why?

Because he has convinced himself that he's some kind of God...Jesus...Devil....that's he invincible.

He's too stupid to know that he's mortal.

MrPoirot said...

Inyo County police caught Charlie. LA County and most of western coastal California was notorious for not prosecuting the law. Charlie's biggest mistake was hiding out in Inyo County where old time justice was still being served. Charlie was never caught until he went to Inyo three months after the murders. the Family would have remained at large longer if they had just stayed put at Spahn Ranch. At that time LA county couldn't catch air in a jug. LA county couldn't even figure out that the Tate and Labianca crimes were related.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P. you are absolutely correct!

Inyo County caught Charlie.

LAPD and LASO had their heads up their asses. Shall we count the ways?

No wonder there is so much over crowding in the LA prisons. These people can't count to 11 without taking their shoes off. I would imagine that 2/3 of the people serving time there shouldn't have been serving time.

In comes Gov. Brown...AGAIN. That burned out hippy. Do you know how many "bad doers" there are in LA alone??? Jesus it's like a drug-war haven. People flock there to do crime. Why? Because the LAPD and LASO can't handle it.

Anyway, back to the Manson saga.

The LAPD and LASO were pretentious assholes who didn't want to cooperate, and therefore blew the hell out of this case.

The very fact that Bugliosi was able to convict Charlie shows that Bugliosi was "on the ball". He worked day and night to correct their mistakes, and even with their mistakes, was able to convict Charlie and the others.

katie8753 said...

But...if Charlie had gone ANYWHERE else....he would have been caught.

Because other police departments/sheriff's offices aren't that stupid.

beauders said...

i don't know if this is a secret because i have not heard anything so i'll just ask what is going on with liz's blog? if there is a secret someone could answer me privately at beauders@aol.com

v717 said...

-Manson was caught at every crime he ever committed. LOL The guy really was not that successful as a criminal, if you really look at it. It's true Manson "got-off easy" many times... had nine lives in some regards... and had a great deal of luck after being caught (again, many times)... but, he was usually caught.-
"Yes, I agree on that!
What we got here is a small time criminal who can´t even steal a car without getting caught. On the other hand "this small time criminal" succed in masterminding the crime of the century. Seven people being murded and the police didn´t have a clue.
Remember this: "It wasn´t the police who cracked the case."
It was Susan Atkins who cracked the case by telling a cellmate about the murders. If Susan Atkins had kept her mouth shut the perpetrators presumably never would have been caught.
So this unsucceful car-thief almost commited the perfect crime. Hey Hey, My My. There´s more into the picture than meets the eye."

katie8753 said...

Hi Beauders. I'll e-mail you.

katie8753 said...

Hi V717.

You are right. The police didn't crack the case...Susan blabbed.

But...it was only a matter of time until someone else blabbed. They were talking about it amongst themselves, people were running away for fear of their lives. Someone else would have blabbed at some point.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Beauders said:
>>>>"i don't know if this is a secret because i have not heard anything so i'll just ask what is going on with liz's blog? if there is a secret someone could answer me privately at beauders@aol.com".<<<<

I'd love to help you Beauders... but, I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to... not even a small clue.

I don't generally miss a whole lot.

If there's something... anything... going-on... (out of the ordinary)... I totally missed it.

Please e-mail me at my address in the sidebar, and explain more specifically what you're talking about... or, I can't help you.
I wouldn't even know where to start...

Peace... Lynyrd

starship said...

Yes, me too...I want to know what happened to evilliz...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Are you guys/gals having trouble accessing Liz's site again??

I'm visiting there no problem.
Her site is functioning fine for me.

What the heck is everyone talking about??

Starship?

What's going-on?

starship said...

Looking for any news about my neighbor, Squeaky, I found this....

Jeff Kramer welcomes Lynette 'Squeaky' Fromme to Upstate New York
Published: Monday, September 21, 2009, 6:00 AM Updated: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 4:20 PM
By Jeff Kramer The Post-Standard

Associated PressLynette Fromme picture in 1975 during her trial. Fromme was convicted of trying to kill president Ford. She was recently released from prison and has moved to Upstate New York.

Dear Squeaky,
Congratulations on finally getting out of prison for attempting to assassinate President Ford. It's my pleasure to welcome you to Central New York -- one of America's leading post-incarceration destinations for the criminally insane.

(new draft)

Dear Ms. Fromme,
It's not often that we get celebrities of your caliber ...

(new draft)

Dear Lynette,
As a transplant from California myself, I look forward to assisting you in the many challenges of your transition to Central New York. Since moving here I have become expert on such matters as chicken wings, bankrupt hotels and car lock de-icing techniques. I am happy to share what I've learned. Please don't mention my name to Charles.

(new draft)

Dear Squeaky,
Nothing says your days as a domestic terrorist are behind you like diving into a hearty plate of sauerbraten. On that note, you are cordially invited to the Utica Maennerchor (German men's chorus) sauerbraten dinner on Oct. 11 in Marcy. I've been assured that your criminal past won't be an issue. "It don't bother me none," said Phil, the guy who answered the phone when I called the number on the sign posted on River Road.

(new draft)

Dear Squeaky,
Have you ever dreamed of shopping while being monitored by a radio frequency system that clogs your iPhone with spam and simultaneously bombards you with computer images pressuring you to purchase additional items? If so, you've come to the right place ...

(new draft)

Dear Squeaky,
Welcome to Central New York. If it makes any difference, I haven't always had the best judgment when it comes to choosing my friends, either, although I would probably draw the line at Charles Manson. Anyway, quick question: Did you really smash a female inmate/convicted hijacker over the head with a claw hammer? There's so much misinformation on the Internet.

(new draft)

Dear Squeaky,
Everyone knows how awkward dating can be, especially when you're a would-be assassin who just moved to a new area after having been in prison for 34 years. Well, you might be in luck. I happen to know a really nice guy about your age. I don't want to give away any secrets yet, but he lives in Oswego and his first name is John. He is married, but that hasn't been an issue in the past. I'd be delighted to introduce you.

(new draft)

Dear Squeaky Fromme,
As one of Central New York's leading boosters, I'm always on the lookout for new talent to combat our region's chronic brain drain. Your resume caught my eye. When I got to the part where the U.S. district attorney prosecuting you for trying to shoot President Ford recommended severe punishment on the grounds that you were "full of hate and violence," and your response was to throw an apple at him, a light went off in my head. In my opinion, you would make an ideal pitchwoman for New York state apples. Let's chat.

(new draft)

Dear Probationer Squeaky,
So glad you're here.
Please don't kill me.
Jeff

Jeff Kramer's humor column runs Mondays in CNY. Reach him at jeffmkramer@gmail.com.

© 2011 syracuse.com. All rights reserved.

starship said...

Hey, Lynyrd,

Can you publish a link? Mine goes nowhere...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Eviliz.com is working fine for me consistently...

Matt said...

Hi Lynyrd,

Thanks for the heads-up. However I see no reason why anyone should be having issues reaching us. Obviously you just posted a comment so we are alive & well.

Those of you that can't reach us, how long has this been going on?

I can be reached at matt at eviliz dot com

Thanks again, Lynyrd.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starship! Funny stuff. LOLOL.

starship said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
starship said...

Ok, Matt,

I found it....something's changed...perhaps that's the issue...

leary7 said...

by the way, off topic but worthy of comment I believe...
Paterno being fired is such a wonderful thing for all of us who have fought the fight against child abuse for years.
And a piece of news that probably seemed incidental and irrelevant to most....but Ireland closing its embassy to the Vatican had me dancing a jig for a solid hour. We are winning some battles.
But not enough.

mattprokes said...

hard to believe that students were rioting last night at penn state.
they should be ashamed of themselves.
off topic- leary i found you in 'mrs paines garage'...pretty funny.
looks like you shared my distrust of priscilla m. at one time!

katie8753 said...

Hi Leary!

I agree, Joe Paterno needed to be fired.

What I don't get is that on the news last night they had people protesting that Paterno got fired because they care more about football than abused children.

The guy was too old to coach anyway.

katie8753 said...

Hi Matt!!

I have no idea what you're talking about, but it's good to see you! :)

katie8753 said...

Well, Gov. Perry forgot what he was gonna do when he becomes the President.

HA HA HA HA!!!

mattprokes said...

katie-its a jfk thing i was talking to leary about off blog.
i don't see how these republicans expect to beat obama when they can't seem to stop tripping over their own feet.
could you imagine perry in a debate with obama?

katie8753 said...

I can't see Perry being successful in a debate with Mickey Mouse.

The guy has a foot permanently embedded in his mouth. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Great to see you MattP!!!

You ROCK!!!!!

lurch said...

I thind if Charlie had escaped the DV raid, he might have had a real shot at staying free. Remember, it wasn't untill AFTER the raid that Suzie's tongue started waggin and the name Manson first popped-up on the radar as the head honcho of snuff.

At the time of the raid, arson and car theft were ALL he was wanted for. Had he escaped, he'd have had about a 1 month head-start before anyone really began searching for him.

Ya can almost picture him ballin some underage senorita in Mexico as he builds "La Familia de Manson"

MrPoirot said...

I too think Manson very well may have fled to Mexico.

katie8753 said...

Hi Lurch!

You and Mr. P. make a good point. Charlie would have had a month or so head start, and most likely would have eluded capture for quite a while.

If he had gone to Mexico, it would have been extremely difficult to find him. BUT...those dudes in Mexico are a hellava lot tougher than Charlie. And a lot less prone to brainwashing.

So unless he could pull that proverbial rabbit outta his hat, he might have fallen victim to a whole nother more dangerous cult.

They might have had his "white brain" for breakfast in order to capture his soul.

Hey, those "duros hombres" would make Tex & Bobby look like boy scouts.

MrPoirot said...

Charlie had been to Mexico before years back. It was rumored that he committed a murder there but I doubt that now. I think tex went to Mexico too and stayed a few days after the murders.

katie8753 said...

Well Mr. P., IF Charlie went to Mexico (which I can't recount) I doubt it was to start a "family".

If he had gone to that extreme, and started "stealing daughters", he would have come up against people that were much more dangerous than he ever thought about being.

Tex went there briefly (I'd say for maybe a week or so) and laid low. If he had intermingled with the population and tried killing again, he'd be pushing up daisies by now.

v717 said...

Yes, Charlie lived in Mexico in the early 50s. In Mexico he learned the art of bullfighting.

katie8753 said...

>>V717 said: Yes, Charlie lived in Mexico in the early 50s. In Mexico he learned the art of bullfighting.>>>

When in the early fifties? He was in jail most of his life?

Toro..Toro..Toro...HA HA HA.

I'll bet Charlie was a good bullfighter. He's a good bullshitter.

Hey guys I'm watching a move called "Believers" about a cult that tortures people into believing their crap.

Interesting.

Jimmy....I hear your pain. HA HA.

Oh, sorry....did I hiccup on your scar?

MrPoirot said...

Here's another big "what if".

What if it was Charlie who agreed to turn states evidence instead of Linda Kasabian?

I think Charlie would blame Tex and Sadie. He'd blame Tex for his drug burns and Sadie for coming up with the copycat idea in order to free Bobby.

St. Circumstance said...

Here is a what if...

if my aunt had a penis she would be my uncle

:)


They never EVER would have let Charlie get away...

no If's and's or butt's about it....

Which is the one thing that keeps me completely from totally disavowing the Charlie as the mind control hippy cult leader...

There was never ANY doubt by anyone who knew them or any of them - that Charlie called the Shots and was called Jesus and all the other crap... they Treated him like he was special, and that must have made him very special to authorities

To shut them down- the key was to shut him down- and even though a steadily shrinking few kept up the nonsense for a few more years...

eventually time has shown that plan worked...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I agree on a few levels Circumstance.

First...
I believe Manson was indeed "calling the shots", regardless of which motive one adheres to.
There's a "pecking order" in every group, and Manson was at the top of that totem pole.
Essentially, every person who was there in the 60's... has established that fact, either verbally... or through their own actions during the trial, and/or afterwards.
(i.e., Lynn and Sandy, have demonstrated their loyalty to Manson for an entire lifetime through their own actions).
Lynn and Sandy tell one story... but their behavior tells quite another.
I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.
Manson... the mid-30's ex-con... wasn't second to anyone among that group of kids... and the authorities figured that out.

Second...
"The Family" would have echoed their "Charlie's in-charge" theme to the world (including authorities)... regardless of whether Manson was missing or not.
They weren't prepared (or even capable), of spontaneously switching gears at that point in history.
Those kids were fried zombies.

Lastly...
I believe the Hollywood culture/society was determined to see someone "pay dearly" for these heinous murders... and jailing a few little girls, was not going to satisfy their thirst for justice.
They wanted A Big Cahuna to pay... and in this episode... Manson was that guy.

The jig was up... these folks had killed several folks, in a very heinous manner... and also of importance... was the location... AND the fact that many of the victims were semi-famous... if not outright famous.
They wanted someone to pay... and Manson was the guy they wanted.
They wanted to kill the whole snake... and Manson was the head of that snake.

Would they have definitely brought him in?
I don't have a crystal ball.
But one thing's for certain... they would have pursued him agressivley for sure...

St. Circumstance said...

LOL

Great minds...

I almost typed the exact reference to the " head of the snake"...

all well said L/S- we are on the same page about this

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I knew the alcohol wallpaper would bring Saint to the blog.
: )

LOLOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Another thing we agree on... LOL

St. Circumstance said...

:)

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P. said: What if it was Charlie who agreed to turn states evidence instead of Linda Kasabian?>>>

I really don't think Bugliosi would have given Charlie the chance to turn state's evidence. Charlie was the ringleader and Bugliosi wasn't going to let him off or give him a reduced sentence for his "cooperation".

>>>I think Charlie would blame Tex and Sadie. He'd blame Tex for his drug burns and Sadie for coming up with the copycat idea in order to free Bobby.>>>

Charlie's been blaming everybody but himself since 1969.

katie8753 said...

Okay I've been watching a re-sentencing trial on TruTV. This woman tied her husband to the bed pretending to start some kinky sex and stabbed him 193 times, including in the eyeballs. She claims she was a victim of abuse.

She was sentenced to 25 years and now is having a re-sentencing trial to try and go free.

Boy, this girl makes the Manson girls look like a bunch of sissies. LOL!

TomG said...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/milwaukee-roommates-rebecca-chandler-raven-larabee-arrested-satanic-sex-torture-article-1.975497?localLinksEnabled=false

Lesson of this story, at least for me, if you meet a girl online, don't let her tie you up with duct tape.

But you do what you like to do.

katie8753 said...

>>>Tom said: Lesson of this story, at least for me, if you meet a girl online, don't let her tie you up with duct tape.>>>

Good advice!! HA HA.

leary7 said...

yowza Matt, I had forgotten about Mrs Paines Garage. There's a snapshot moment - when the blanket went limp and Marina realized the rifle was gone.
sorry about not getting back to you with more info, been over my head trying to finish a project. will try soon.

v717 said...

A lady by the name of McCaffery was working as Jay Sebring´s hair salon receptionist She told Paul Krassner, editor of The Realist that her boyfriend Joel Rostau, delivered cocaine and mescaline to Cielo Drive the night of the murders. Later-during the trial several associates of Sebring were murded, among them Rostau. His body was discovered in the trunk of a car in New York.
Krassner also came in contact with Preston Guillory, a former deputy sheriff in LA, who informed him:
A few weeks prior to the Spahn Ranch raid we were told that we weren´t to arrest Manson or any of his followers. We had a sheaf of memos on Manson-that they had automatis weapons at the ranch, that citizens had complained about hearing machine guns at night, that firemen from the local fire station had been accosted by armed members of Manson´s band and told to get out of the area. Deputies started asking. Why aren´t we gonna make the raid sooner. But somebody very high up was controlling everything that was going on and was seeing to it that we didn´t bust Manson.

katie8753 said...

Leary, why are you replying to Matt on this blog?

We're not your stepping stone.

katie8753 said...

V717, everything you said was stupid or misspelled.

Please re-post, and this time spell correctly and use punctuation.

katie8753 said...

>>>V717 said: Later-during the trial several associates of Sebring were murded (sic) >>>

Who? Expound please.

>>>A few weeks prior to the Spahn Ranch raid we were told that we weren´t to arrest Manson or any of his followers.>>

And who exactly said this??? This is a bullshit rendition. V717, you better make sure you're getting your facts right.

>>>But somebody very high up was controlling everything that was going on and was seeing to it that we didn´t bust Manson.>>>

V717, please read up on this before you post. This is all bullshit.

You should know that by now.

MrPoirot said...

What if Squeaky got her own reality tv show?

v717 said...

The whole hippie scene and the Manson Family was a sociological experiment.
Excerpt from Carol Green´s bok about the the Manson Family.
Details from the life of Charles Manson in the Haight-Ashbury scene are extensively described in the usual biographies. However, an important aspect of his life is less discussed, one which only Ed Sanders referred to. Like the whole group housing and communes were all part of a "sociological study", so was the Manson "Family".16 The Medical Clinic in Haight-Ashbury mostly used the technology "of the participating observation" in their study. The results were constantly reported in the Journal Of Psychedelic Drugs, a journal that was started by the hospital in collaboration with the Medical Faculty of the University of California under leadership of a "Psychopharmacology Study Group".
The Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic was established in 1967, when the first communes had long been formed and the research on them could begin. It was run partially from donations of the Bothin Foundation and the Merrill Trust. To the donors belonged the mother of the one on victims, Folger.
Dr. David E. Smith, who personally belonged to the team that would study Charles Manson, was at the same time professor at the specialist area of Pharmacology at the Medical Faculty of the University of California, where he particularly held lectures about toxicology and occasionally also about criminology
That also applied to the previously sentenced Charles Manson. But in his case there are some remarkable details. His probation officer was neither a student nor a civil servant, as is usually the case. Manson was assigned to a certain Roger Smith when he emerged in northern California in the autumn of 1967. Smith was an expert on criminology and had experience both with street gangs and in prisons. When he took over the care of Manson, he was employed at the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinich. He looked after Manson as a probation officer until the beginning of 1968.
In the Spring of 1968  Roger Smith voluntarily worked at the clinic. He learned to know many patients and advised them medically. Among the patients he cared for were also Charles Manson and his infamous Family."22

The two Smiths worked as a research assistant of Alan Rose.23 The fourth person in the team was Dr. Ernest Domburg24, a psychiatrist who had specialized in criminological pathology.

After the gruesome murders of the Manson Family Dr. David E. Smith and his coworkers published a recapitulatory book about the Manson Experiment: Love Needs Care
According to Dr. Smith, Roger Smith had in the meantime become close friends with Manson. Manson visited Roger and his wife frequently in the clinic, together with his "children". These visits also continued after he was no longer his probation officer. Manson never went to the clinic for medical help for himself. The visits were only to see Roger Smith whom he nicknamed "Jubal", after the the attorney in the science fiction novel "Stranger in a Strange Land".41

The  relationship between the Manson Family and the two Smiths was not limited to the exchange of information. The two handlers also aided the Manson Family legally and financially in several situations . An example for this is that Roger Smith and his wife Carol took custody of Manson's first child in the commune, Michael Valentine Smith, nick-named Pooh Bear, when the girls spent a short time in jail for marijuana possession.42

The close relationship between the two Smiths, Manson and his "family" can be proven in the year 1968. In April 1968 some members of the commune temporarily lived in Clayton Street 532, only a few houses away from the Free Clinic.53

mattprokes said...

i'd watch a squeaky reality show!
no rush leary whenever you can get to it.

katie8753 said...

Sorry Leary. I misunderstood you. :)

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P. said: What if Squeaky got her own reality tv show?>>>

She might as well. Every other weirdo is doing it.

She might try writing a book like everyone else does too. Could be worth reading. Or maybe she is...who knows?

MrPoirot said...

I have heard two stories about Squeaky's probation. I don't know which is true. One version was a two yr probation. The other version was a lifetime probation period where she is not allowed media contact/interviews or internet use.

Anybody know her situation?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I'd also watch a Squeaky reality show!
: )

BTW...
Brand new episodes of "Beavis and Butthead" are back on MTV again, as of two weeks ago. AHahahaha

Here's a clip for other discerning viewers like myself:

(3min. 6 secs - 4 min. 10 secs) are particularly hilarious).
They're watching reality TV, and commenting as usual. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66Nb2qrO2rU

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello Poirot.

Concerning Lynn's probation:
I heard the latter...
"a lifetime probation period where she is not allowed media contact/interviews or internet use".

Although, I never bothered confirming the information.
I was simply happy (and intrigued), she was out. LOL

I would imagine a simple google search regarding Squeaky's release a couple years back, would yield tons of articles, and hence a definitive answer.
Maybe I'll take a look later...

Just search "Lynette Fromme released to Marcy NY"... or a few variations like that.
You'll find it...

MrPoirot said...

Lynyrd I definantly read both scenarios. I think she is supposed to remain silent to the grave. However when she was released I read several times that her parole was for only two yrs for which case she'd be free now to accept a reality tv show.

She has not spoken to the media even once so i suspect her parole stipulates that she has to shut her yap and never talk publically ever again.

I do know that Manson called her soon after her relase and Squeaky said she'd prefer that he not call back.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P. said: I do know that Manson called her soon after her relase and Squeaky said she'd prefer that he not call back.>>>

Good for her. Maybe she's on the mend.

katie8753 said...

V717, I'll have to give you an "E" for effort.

I've read all this conspiracy crap before and I have to say, it's up there with "The Outer Limits" and "The Twilight Zone".

Maybe even "Soylent Green".

Please leave the Sci Fi to L. Ron Hubbard.

katie8753 said...

Here's a "what if".

What if Sharon, upon being left alone with Sadie, wrestled the knife away from her, then when Tex & Pat came back in from killing, she told them that if they didn't let her go, she'd slit Sadie's throat.

Would they have said "Okay", or would they have said "Go ahead, we don't care about that bitch".

MrPoirot said...

They would have left. A dead Sadie on the floor would give them away. remember a creepy crawl was aborted at John Phillips house when he saw them in his garage. john wisely picked up his shotgun. Tate and Lab were surprised with no chance to run or arm themselves. Labiancas had guns.

v717 said...

Katie 8753
If you prefer to listen to the whitewash version of these incidents there´s nothing I can do about that.
As Manson says: "Home is were you happy."

MrPoirot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MrPoirot said...

sbuch113 said...


In my opinion Charlie Manson is an attention whore and a idiot.[end quote][end quote]

Poirot replies:

Paul Watkins spoke about Obsessive Compulsive behavior being rampant in the family. Watch his youtube interview with Maureen Reagan. This is why Manson/Squeaky and others were "attention whores".

I like your description of Manson as an "attention whore". It is a better term for "Obsessive Compulsive". It makes more sense to me than "Obsessive Compulsive".

beauders said...

as someone who suffers with ocd what watkins said was really. people with ocd have repeated intrusive thoughts and in order to releave the stress do a behavior, such as washing their hands 12 times to get rid of the thought. eventually the thoughts and behavior take over their life.