Wednesday, August 31, 2011

Jay Sebring by Katie...
Birth:  October 10, 1933 - Death:  August 9, 1969
Born Thomas John Kummer in Alabama, and raised outside of Detroit, Michigan, Kummer served in the US Navy for four years and was a veteran of the Korean War.  While in the Navy, he developed the hairstyling skills that would make him famous.  When he arrived in L.A., Thomas changed his name to Jay Sebring - the J for the first initial of his middle name and Sebring from the famous Florida race track.  According to some accounts, he was the first person to open a male hair salon in the country, and his cutting edge style of men's hair care attracted big name clients.  At Kirk Douglas's request, Jay was the stylist for the movie "Spartacus."  In 1960, Jay married a model by the name of Cami.  They divorced in 1965.  In 1964, Jay took martial arts lessons from master Bruce Lee.  Jay took a tape of Bruce to producer William Dozier (of Batman) and Dozier signed Lee to be on the TV show "Green Hornet," which made Bruce a household name.  Also in 1964, Jay met actress Sharon Tate at a Hollywood party and they began dating.  Upon Jay's divorce, conflicting accounts abound of whether Jay proposed to Sharon, and others that state that Sharon wanted to get married and Jay was hesitant.  In early May 1969 Sebring opened a new salon at 629 Commercial Street in San Francisco and a champagne reception followed.  Guests included Abigail Folger and her mother, Inez, as well as Paul Newman and his wife, Joanne Woodward.  Sebring's business enterprises continued to flourish.  He also started Sebring International, a company that is still in business today (run by Jay's close friends) which sells men's hair products.
Jay once said: “I took a good look at my friends, both the males and females.  The girls looked great- but why shouldn't they since they had all kinds of powders, paints, dyes, sprays and ointments to aid them?  But, the poor men- what could they do to better their looks?  Buy new clothes or adopt a new hair design!!  Well, clothes were no problem- there are plenty of excellent men's wear stores.  But, where could a man get a hair style that really flattered him?  The answer was- no place. I decided to open a men's hair design shop and change all that." 
Though not seeking an acting career, Sebring made a cameo appearance in an episode of the TV show Batman, playing a character based on himself called Mr. Oceanbring.  It is rumored that the movie “Shampoo”, starring Warren Beatty, was based on Jay’s being known as “hairdresser to the stars”.
Adjacent to his salon on Fairfax Avenue, West Hollywood, Pat Woolley ran her iconic fashion shop, catering to musicians and movie stars including Mia Farrow.
Despite Jay’s success, he was rumored to be in serious financial trouble toward the end of his life.  He was a drug user and reportedly was spending a lot of his money on drugs, and just supporting his fancy Hollywood lifestyle.
Sharon and Jay, partying at Easton Drive, from Starship! Thanks Starship! 
In 1965, Jay bought the home at 9820 Easton Drive.  The house is so enshrouded with foliage that it’s almost invisible from the road. This home is very mysterious and is associated with several tragedies. It’s a very interesting structure; the windows are equipped to spray water on the panes to simulate rain.  There are several gargoyles carved inside and outside the home.  Some say they were carved to resemble movie stars of the day.
This home was built by Paul Bern.  Paul was a big shot in Hollywood, a powerful producer employed by MGM Studios. Paul married Jean Harlow in 1932, and 2 months later, in September 1932, Paul was found shot to death, nude in his bathroom, apparently a suicide. 

Paul left the following note, supposedly to Jean:
“Dearest dear,
Unfortunately this is the only way to make good the frightful wrong I have done you and wipe out my abject humiliation. I love you".
Paul
"You understand last night was only a comedy”
Jean and others were suspected of murder, but the death was ruled a suicide.  The case was later reopened, and the studio was charged with a cover up for murder, but it was later dismissed.  There were 2 other deaths in the house before Sebring bought it. Sebring was fascinated by the history of the house. It was a big reason he bought it.
When Sebring bought the house, he said “When I go, the whole world’s going to know about it.”  Jay’s life, of course, ended August 9, 1969, at Cielo Drive, along with the 4 other victims. 
Thanks Katie!!

108 comments:

starship said...

And here you get to see a party Jay threw at Easton Drive while he was dating Sharon. You can see Sharon Tate drink, smoke a joint, and see Jay with a Heineken...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmxKbYWo_zM&feature=related

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starship! I think the girl Sharon's talking to in the swing is Debra Tate.

I remember when Ro-Man said: "Shad-on doesn't take drugs or even smoke cigarettes". LOL.

I had a jacket just like that in the 70's.

Heineken was Jay's favorite drink.

bobby said...

Thanks Katie ! Cool post.

Did those men's wigs really look good ? prolly just because they were old style but to me they looked horrible. lol.

Funny: Jay's parents didnt want to sell the house to anyone as wierd as their own son. Purple & black walls are aq little wierd right ?

katie8753 said...

I wish that Jay & Sharon had learned a lot more from Bruce Lee when they had the chance. They could have tag-teamed those creeps and bounced them off every wall.

That house is sooooo interesting! I would love to see the inside of it. Maybe I'll put that on my bucket list. HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Hi Bobby. I was thinking the same thing. When he was applying those wigs they looked pretty silly, but then the finished product looked pretty real. I guess we didn't see the entire process. LOL.

Yeah, it sounds like Jay pretty much weirded the place up with his paint job. Painting your room black is pretty bizarre. But I think that Jay was a little bizarre too.

I mean, what man would travel all the way to England to see if the new man his girlfriend took up with is suitable for her, after she dumped him.

He should have just blown her off. He might be enjoying his great grandchildren by now.

katie8753 said...

It was interesting watching how he cuts hair according to the facial structure. I guess there's a lot more to hair cutting than I ever knew.

bobby said...

Was reading a post on cats site: The Sharon Tate chapter from the book by JD Russell, the beautifull people, information in there about Jay S. & his strange habits.

if your interested.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Bobby! Can you provide a link??

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Starship... that is GREAT footage!!

Wow... Sharon was a REAL beauty.

That's definitely the most attractive I've ever found her...

Thanks!

St. Circumstance said...

Excellent stuff...

very good post, and really interesting link :)

love the authentic looks at the times- she was a stunner no doubt

Thanks Katie/Starship

katie8753 said...

Hey Starship, I saw your comment on the Col's blog. I'll reply here.

First of all, I love your input. You and Lynyrd always seem to push me back to center when I start leaning too far in one direction. HA HA.

I've thought that Suzanne might have been involved in the LaBianaca murders, but it's only my opinion. In fact, I'm probably the only one of that opinion.

But I find it strange that there were only 2 people on earth who could possibly have known when the LaBiancas got home that morning, Suzanne and the newspaper guy. So how did Charlie know when it was time to head over there?

I know, that could have been a coincidence, but I find it strange that Charlie was just kind of driving around aimlessly for a while, then suddenly made a bee-line to Waverly Drive.

I also find it strange that Suzanne rallied to get Tex out. In fact, that's just plain nuts!

But...it's just my opinion. :)

katie8753 said...

Hi St. Glad you liked it!

I was wondering if anyone knows when that film of Sharon at Jay's house was shot. Was it after Sharon hooked up with Roman? Those two seem AWFULLY lovey-dovey!

bobby said...

Thanks Bobby! Can you provide a link??


http://truthontatelabianca.com/topic/4462-sharon-tate-chapter-the-beautiful-people-by-jd-russell/

bobby said...

Going back to the Harold True post:Another post I read on that Truth site was a 1994 interview with Phil Kaufman about his book Road Mangler. He sayt's he lived with Harold at Waverly and that is why or partly why Charlie chose the next door neighbor ( La Bianca ) because Phil was not home.

What does everyone think of that ?

katie8753 said...

Bobby, thanks so much for that link to the Russell book on Cat's site. That was very interesting, although I don't know how true it is. It's easy to cite different pieces of information and say it's from "an unidentified close friend".

I know that Jay was a strange little man. That's pretty much been established by many different people. How strange, I'm not sure.

Sharon made the comment to Roman that Jay liked rough sex. She thought it was funny.

Boy....talking about kissing and telling. HA HA.

katie8753 said...

>>>Bobby said: Going back to the Harold True post:Another post I read on that Truth site was a 1994 interview with Phil Kaufman about his book Road Mangler. He sayt's he lived with Harold at Waverly and that is why or partly why Charlie chose the next door neighbor ( La Bianca ) because Phil was not home.>>>

Bobby, I don't know much at all about Phil Kaufman. Does he state a reason that Charlie would want him dead? I'm assuming that is what he's asserting.

In August of 1969, Harold didn't live there and I'm assuming that Phil didn't either. If Harold was as much in tune with Charlie as he says, I would imagine that Charlie knew that Harold didn't live there anymore.

katie8753 said...

In that Russell book, he makes it look like Jay & Voytek brought their own deaths about. That they were preoccupied with death. I'd not heard that before.

It was interesting about the Peter Hurkos stuff. He was obviously way off base on some things, but others he was pretty accurate.

His first assertion that the killers were not intruders, that they were known to the victims and they were admitted to the house willingly is just plain stupid. The police already knew that the killer(s) cut the screen and came thru the window.

katie8753 said...

I love that picture at the top of the thread showing Jay with that "shit eatin' grin" saying "look what I got"!!!!

HA HA.

bobby said...

Katie. i cant find the post again. I cant remember if he gave a reason. He produced the LIE album & pressed 3000 copies of which he sais the girls stole a bunch of them & he had to chase them away from his house 3 times once with a 357. lol.

AC would be proud of him. lol.

katie8753 said...

Hi Bobby.

Phil might have thought that Charlie was targeting him, but I doubt it.

I would think that Charlie would know that Phil didn't live there anymore. Charlie wasn't dumb.

When he went to Cielo Drive in March of 1969, he didn't go there looking for Melcher....he went there to find out to where Melcher had moved.

Candace Bergen states that when they left Cielo Drive in a huff, he told her to not reveal that they were living in his mother's beach house. He was that afraid of Manson.

Although it came out in court that Manson went to Terry's beach house and stole his telescope. Manson's way of saying "I know where you are".

Manson was in tune with a lot of people, and he knew where people went.

Manson knew that Harold didn't live there anymore, and Kaufman didn't either. If Manson wanted to know where Kaufman lived, he could have found out. Easily.

Bottom line is this....I don't think Manson targeted the LaBianca house because he was mad that Kaufman wasn't there anymore.

I think he pretty well knew that. And he was targeting the LaBiancas because he wanted to.

v717 said...

A lady by the name of McCaffery was working as Jay Sebring´s hair salon receptionist She told Paul Krassner, editor of The Realist that her boyfriend Joel Rostau, delivered cocaine and mescaline to Cielo Drive the night of the murders. Later-during the trial several associates of Sebring were murded, among them Rostau. His body was discovered in the trunk of a car in New York.
Krassner also came in contact with Preston Guillory, a former deputy sheriff in LA, who informed him:
A few weeks prior to the Spahn Ranch raid we were told that we weren´t to arrest Manson or any of his followers. We had a sheaf of memos on Manson-that they had automatis weapons at the ranch, that citizens had complained about hearing machine guns at night, that firemen from the local fire station had been accosted by armed members of Manson´s band and told to get out of the area. Deputies started asking. Why aren´t we gonna make the raid sooner. But somebody very high up was controlling everything that was going on and was seeing to it that we didn´t bust Manson.

katie8753 said...

V717, we already know that Joel Rostau, delivered cocaine and mescaline to Cielo Drive the night of the murders.

We already know that.

I want to know something different!!!

We know that Jay and Sebring were involved in drugs.

Tell me something I don't know!!!

They're involvement in drugs cannot have been the catalyst.

Come on now!!!

beauders said...

manson stole the telescope before he visited 10050 cielo, so he already knew melcher had moved. i have always believed that he went to 10050 cielo to see altobelli and just used melcher as an excuse to go on the property and have a conversation with altobelli. remember altobelli was a big wig in hollywood management.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Beauders... you ROCK!!!

You KNOW your facts girl!!!!!!

Thanks for ALL your contributions!!!!

You are F%cking AWESOME!!!

katie8753 said...

V717, I've read the theory that law enforcement was allowing Charlie to continue with his activities in order to "remove certain people" from the drug business.

Is this what you are referring to? Do you agree with this theory?

katie8753 said...

Beauders I didn't know that Charlie had already stolen the telescope before he went to Cielo Drive. I was thinking it was after.

We know that Charlie wasn't going there to see Melcher. I agree that he could have gone there to see Altobelli. I've read that he talked with Altobelli for a while about him getting a recording contract and Altobelli blew him off. He thought his music stunk.

I've made the comment before that the hit on Cielo Drive might have been directed at Altobelli. I believe Altobelli told Charlie in March that he was leaving the country the next day, but maybe Charlie thought he was back home by August.

What do you think?

starship said...

I would like to hear Preston Guillory, who is apparently still with us, confirm that story as Krassner is, well, a nut job.

Yes, Katie, the telescope being taken from Malibu was a couple of weeks before the murders according to Candace Bergen's book. And Altobelli says he told Manson in March that he would be out of the country for a year.

starship said...

Ok, who here as the balls to email this guy and ask?

http://www.clueseau.com/

katie8753 said...

>>>Starship said: I would like to hear Preston Guillory, who is apparently still with us, confirm that story as Krassner is, well, a nut job.>>>

Yes indeed. Some clarification on an outrageous statement like that would be nice.

Thanks Starship!!!

katie8753 said...

>>>Starship said: Yes, Katie, the telescope being taken from Malibu was a couple of weeks before the murders according to Candace Bergen's book. And Altobelli says he told Manson in March that he would be out of the country for a year.>>>

Thanks Starship. I was thinking the telescope disappeared after Charlie went to Cielo Drive in March.

Well if Altobelli told Manson he would be gone for a year then I'm assuming that the target was NOT Altobelli.

Another solution to motive down the drain. HA HA.

bobby said...

Thank You For Filling Out This Form
Below is what you submitted to info@clueseau.com on Thursday, September 1, 2011 at 15:07:08


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: xxxxxxx

phone: xxxxxx

address: hill rd.

City:

State: ny

Zip:

Country: USA

Comment: Mr. Guillory, If possible could you confirm the story Mr. Krassner did on an interview with you? My question is: Did you say that you think the sherrif agency was told by a hire authority to not arrest Manson family because they wanted him to be free to attack another group of people ? Thank you for your time Sir. Bob.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


FormMail V1.92 © 1995 - 2002 Matt Wright
A Free Product of Matt's Script Archive, Inc.

bobby said...

Starship, per your request I asked.

I almost forgot to delete my personal info after I cut & pasted it here.

Sorry if I didnt word it well but I'm sure the gist of the question is there for him.

I'll let you know if I get a reply.

bobby said...

a "hire" authority. Wow I'm an idiot.

katie8753 said...

Bobby...you're too funny!!! HA HA.

Let us know if you get a reply!

katie8753 said...

Okay, there will a hearing tomorrow morning at 9am to decide if baby-killer Casey Anthony has to pay the State of Florida back for running around in circles due to all her myriad of lies.

Grand total is over $500,000.00 and climbing.

St. & Mary, maybe you guys will be some kind of refund check in the mail when Casey has to cough up!!

LOL.

melee1969 said...

Nice thread!!

I read the pages from the Russell book and I don't believe all that was written.

I don't believe the savagery that was described to be inflicted on Sharon & Jay. The coroner's photos don't support it.

Jay Sebring was a strange little guy, there's no doubt about it. He was a drug user and was into some kinky stuff, but I don't believe for a minute that he caused his own death.

He also had some financial troubles due to his careless spending habits, but a lot of people did and still do. Doesn't cause death.

Same goes with Sharon Tate. She did have a curiosity about the black arts and dabbled in it somewhat, but it was just a passing fancy for her. Something "new & chic" to do. I don't think her attention span was strong enough to really let one thing control her life.

The book insinuates somewhat that Jay & Voytek somehow "caused" their deaths. Sorry...I don't agree.

If Jay hadn't been at Cielo Drive that night, he probably be drinking a Heineken right now.

v717 said...

Hello Katie 8753
You ask me if I support the theory about the law enforcement letting Charlie and the others run free in order to "remove certain people" from the drug business.
Well, it is not impossible. But there isn´t enough evidence to confirm such a theory.
You know Vincent Bug was right. But he didn´t understand the whole thing. He thought Manson deliberately instructed these murders. That was not so. The whole thing is that Manson´s teachings became to much for his followers, well not all. Blue who is very intelligent understood what he was talking about. But for the rest It was to heavy stuff.
In here lies the solution to these incidents. Simply, they were like little kids who tryed to act like their parents but of course can´t grasp it all.

katie8753 said...

Hi V717.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I think that you're trying to say that you don't believe there was a "conspiracy" to keep Charlie free in order to kill the "drug lords".

Also you're saying that Charlie didn't order the murders, that his "children" misunderstood him.

Well, let's look at the facts. Tex says that Charlie took him aside on August 8th and told him to "go to the house where Melcher used to live and kill everyone there".

Now no one else heard this conversation. So it's Tex vs Charlie on that one, and since they're both liars, it's hard to know who is telling the truth.

BUT...on the very next evening, Charlie drove the killers to the LaBianca residence, and by his own admission, tied them up.

Now knowing that Charlie was very aware of what happened at Cielo Drive (he went back to see what his children had done), are you saying that he didn't tell them to kill the LaBiancas? What do you think....that he wanted them to read them bedtime stories???

Come on V717....

I know you're intelligent. Think about it, won't you???:)

katie8753 said...

Hi Melee. Glad you joined in. Feel free to comment anytime!

I read those pages from the Russell book too, and while I found it intriguing in some parts, some of it was too hard to swallow.

Like I said, when you say you got the information from "an unidentified source", it's pretty much a grab bag. HA HA.

I mean, anyone can say they "heard" something and not identify the source. Then you can twist and turn the outcome into anything you want.

For instance, the writer says that Sheilah Wells stated that on August 8th, Sharon called her up and was upset that she was lonely, and invited Sheilah to her house. Sheilah declined, saying that she was having guests, and would Sharon come to her house.

Well I've not heard this before. From what I've read over and over, Sheilah did invite Sharon to her house, but it wasn't because Sharon called and said she was lonely.

I mean, how could Sharon be lonely? There were always people in that house. On August 8th, she had guests over for lunch, Barbara Parkins & Joanna Pettet, and after lunch she was tired and took a nap. The usual gang was in and out, Frykowski, Folger & Sebring, among others. So how could she have been lonely on August 8th. I'm not buying that.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I just wanted to thank everyone for their contributions to the blog this week, in my absence.

I've been without electricity for much of this week due to "Tropical Storm Irene".
The storm knocked-out some main wires in the "national grid".

I've been contributing very sparsely, here and there, when I can... but, much less than I normally would... and much less than I'd like to.

Thanks Everyone!!

beauders said...

katie, manson was an intelligent man could he have figured out that he was getting b.s. and the run around by altobelli, and wouldn't have minded if altobelli was home being killed with the others. i think he could have been a target in that respect. it is as believable as the drug burn theory that manson was pissed off at the disrespect he received the day he showed up at 10050 cielo and saw tate in the doorway--a woman he couldn't have or control, and he knew it.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Here's a couple questions of curiousity for anyone...

Does anyone know why Phil Kaufman was arested and jailed at Terminal Island?
What was his crime(s)?
Producing a bad record? LOL

Also...
How did Harold True and Kaufman meet?
What was their connection?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Beauders said:
>>>>"katie, manson was an intelligent man could he have figured out that he was getting b.s. and the run around by altobelli, and wouldn't have minded if altobelli was home being killed with the others. i think he could have been a target in that respect".<<<<

That's a proposition, I've heard before.
Altobelli as the target... it's not as far-fetched as some other theories we've heard...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bob... let us know, if you hear anything from Preston Guillory.

If he doesn't get back to you... I'll give him a shot myself.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Starship...

Just wondering...

Are you sure this is the same Preston Guillory?
I mean... wouldn't he be retired by now?

But then again... how many "Preston Guillory's" are there in the world? LOLOL

Kimchi said...

Phil Kaufman, was born in New York, and moved to LA in the late 1950s to work as a movie stunt man. After a period in prison on a drug charge, he became one of the best-known road managers in the music business -- working for the Rolling Stones, Joe Cocker, Frank Zappa and Emmylou Harris. Divorced, he has one son, and lives in Nashville

Kimchi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kimchi said...

Sorry for the delete..it posted twice...

But wanted to say that was taken from his website "Road Mangler Delux" but doesn't mention anything about Harold..

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

((((((((((KIMCHI))))))))))

katie8753 said...

Hi Beauders.

I like your comment. It makes perfect sense. If Altobelli had been there, it would have been another ace in the hole for Charlie, who I think was just pissed off in general. An important man in the business, a beautiful woman he couldn't have, a beautiful estate that he was once welcome to visit and now was run off like a ratty door to door salesman....sounds reasonable to me!!

katie8753 said...

Hi Kimchi. Thanks for the info on Phil Kaufman. Sounds like he went from rags to riches. LOL.

Reminds me of Phil Spector, whose fate turned out to be the opposite. Maybe Charlie & Spector can hook up at some point. HA HA.

starship said...

Hey, all...have a good weekend. Not sure yet but hope I am heading back into the woods after some football tomorrow...

Lynyrd, sorry about Irene. She sure did some damage in my beloved Catskills too. I was too far west that day for it to be anything but a little rain and wind. I don't know about Guillory...somebody else pointed that website out a couple of weeks ago.

I received GIMME SKELTER on netflix today. Found it by accident when I typed in Gimme Shelter. Can't wait to watch it but I bet I'll want to kill myself halfway through...

bobby said...

One thing that would indicate it is the same guy is that, his website lists the Manson murders as one of his credits.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starship!! Have fun in the woods!! LOL.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Bobby. Let us know if you hear back from him!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Have a good weekend Starship!!

Wow... "Gimme Skelter"... I've never heard of that one before... LOL

Let us know what you think...

If it's anything like most of the Manson-related movies out there, you'll probably wish you hadn't found it. LOLOL

Peace...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bobby said:
>>>>"his website lists the Manson murders as one of his credits".<<<<

Hmm... well I'll be shnookered. LOL
Sounds legit...

Lynn said...

Not sure how Phil and Harold met, but at the time, Harold was a student at UCLA. Harold met Manson through Phil. Phil met Manson in prison. For awhile, Harold lived with Phil at Chandler Drive- he lived in the backhouse that he painted for Phil. Gram Parsons also lived at that house for awhile...the house is no longer there. I had friends who lived in it in the 70's...it was demolished to widen the freeway.

Anyway, there are several pages dedicted to Harold True in Phil's book. He says Charlie wanted to live with him on Waverly Drive but Harold said no

Lynn said...

I am almost done reading Hot Burritos- the true story of the Flying Burrito Brothers...written by John Einarson. On page 182...."we had a couple of friends who would come by" (Chris) HIllman adds. One of them was namded Charles Tacot. He was an older guy, a friend of Jim Dickson's (producer). When the Manson murders occured in August 1969, literally a canyon or two away from us, he was actually one of the first suspects because he had a beef with Jay Sebring. So Charles went down to the police station to turn himself in and within an hour was released because he hadn't done anything. But things got so creepy around that time at Burrito Manor that I decided to leave. I knew Terry Melcher (Manson's alleged target) and it was just too creepy for me. Michael (Clark) and Gram (Parsons) stayed fora while longer and I ended up having to pay the damaged for all of the things they did wrong in that house.

katie8753 said...

Hi Lynn!!

>>>Lynn said: Anyway, there are several pages dedicted to Harold True in Phil's book. He says Charlie wanted to live with him on Waverly Drive but Harold said no>>>

There's a short video clip of Harold saying that Charlie wanted to move in Harold's house with some of his girls, and Harold said no, that handling one girl was hard enough on him. HA HA.

Thanks for the info Lynn!

Lynn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

It's interesting to note that Paul Bern and Jean Harlow both lived in that house, and Paul died in the house in 1932, and Jean Harlow died June 7, 1937 of renal failure.

Jay and Sharon were both living in that house, and they both died in 1969.

Jean Harlow and Sharon Tate were both 26 years old when they died.

Now that's kinda creepy!

Lynn said...

Hi Katie! My favorite Harold True story in Phil's book is that Harold brought three cakes with drugs in it and Phil was really really stoned. There are also pictures o Harold True painting, so maybe he also had some artistic talent.

Lynn said...

I meant to say when he visited Phil in prison...

Lynn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lynn said...

In Road Mangler Deluxe, Phil states he owns the rights to Charlie Mansons' recorded music for the LIE album released in 1971. Phil produced the album...nobody put their real names on the album- Harold True was one of the investors. According to Phil Kaufman, Charlie was looking for Harold and him (I think for his music. Harold had been in Ethiopia with the Peace Corps. WHen Harold got back he rented 3267 Waverly Drive with Al Swerdloff and Ernie Baltzell. When these guys moved into the house, the house next door was vacant but would soon be occupied by the La Biancas (3301 Waveryly Drive)_

Pg 74, Road Mangler: Manson had the La Biancas killed when he was looking for Harold and me. I had previously fallen out with Charlie over his music and he was after me. They went to my house first then they went to Waverly Drive but the house was vacant (Harold, Al and Ernie had moved out some time before) They then went next door and killed the La Bianca couple. It wasn't just a coincidence.

katie8753 said...

Hi Lynn. Do you think that is why Charlie went to the Labianca's? Because Harold wasn't home??

Lynn said...

It seems plausible....same thing with Cielo....it wasn't his intended victims but it sent a message perhaps to those that thought they were the targets....

katie8753 said...

But wouldn't it make more sense to go after the people you really wanted to hurt, instead of sending them "a message"?

Lynn said...

Not if you don't know where they are

katie8753 said...

But Charlie did know where Melcher lived. He stole his telescope from his mother's beach house where Terry was living a couple of weeks before the murders. He was supposedly giving Terry a message at that time that he knew where he was.

v717 said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand
Ackording to Adam Gorightly Phil Kaufman served time at Terminal Island on a federal marijuana charge.

v717 said...

Katie 8753
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I think that you're trying to say that you don't believe there was a "conspiracy" to keep Charlie free in order to kill the "drug lords".
"I said it´s not impossible. That´s all I said."
Also you're saying that Charlie didn't order the murders, that his "children" misunderstood him.
"Let me tell you this. I don´t think that Tex Watson came up
with the idea to go killing people. And I don´t think Manson came up with the idea to go killig people.
"I think it came from Susan Atkins."
Well, let's look at the facts. Tex says that Charlie took him aside on August 8th and told him to "go to the house where Melcher used to live and kill everyone there".
Now no one else heard this conversation. So it's Tex vs Charlie on that one, and since they're both liars, it's hard to know who is telling the truth.
"Well one thing about Manson is that he dosen´t snitch. He follows strictly the prison rules among inmates that says "never snitch." So Manson would never snitch on Susan Atkins even if it would have put him in a better position.
About Tex Watson: That guy was so stoned that he didn´t have any idea about what he was doing or why he was doing it."
BUT...on the very next evening, Charlie drove the killers to the LaBianca residence, and by his own admission, tied them up.
"Yes he has admitted that."
Now knowing that Charlie was very aware of what happened at Cielo Drive (he went back to see what his children had done), are you saying that he didn't tell them to kill the LaBiancas? What do you think....that he wanted them to read them bedtime stories???
"In court ackording to the law that dosen´t prove that he orded the killings. I still say it was Susan Atkins that came up with the idea, to free Bobby Beauselil, by copy cat murders."

katie8753 said...

Hi V717.

Every time we take a step forward, you take 2 steps backward. Sigh.

>>>V717 said: Katie 8753
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I think that you're trying to say that you don't believe there was a "conspiracy" to keep Charlie free in order to kill the "drug lords".
"I said it´s not impossible. That´s all I said.">>>

It is impossible.

>>>Also you're saying that Charlie didn't order the murders, that his "children" misunderstood him.
"Let me tell you this. I don´t think that Tex Watson came up
with the idea to go killing people. And I don´t think Manson came up with the idea to go killig people.
"I think it came from Susan Atkins.">>>

Wow, you're taking the heat off Charlie & Tex! That's really something!

>>>Well, let's look at the facts. Tex says that Charlie took him aside on August 8th and told him to "go to the house where Melcher used to live and kill everyone there".
Now no one else heard this conversation. So it's Tex vs Charlie on that one, and since they're both liars, it's hard to know who is telling the truth.
"Well one thing about Manson is that he dosen´t snitch. He follows strictly the prison rules among inmates that says "never snitch." So Manson would never snitch on Susan Atkins even if it would have put him in a better position.>>>

Now you're way off base man. Charlie threw all the girls under the bus to get out of the death penalty when he was convicted. You can call that "snitching" or you can call that brainwashing.

V717, did you not know that the "copy cat" idea only came up on the penalty phase? And Charlie didn't finger Susan...he fingered Linda. Come on man...read up on the literature.

katie8753 said...

>>>About Tex Watson: That guy was so stoned that he didn´t have any idea about what he was doing or why he was doing it. >>>


Well you'll have to argue with JimNY about that one. He's convinced that Tex was the ringleader. HA HA.

>>>BUT...on the very next evening, Charlie drove the killers to the LaBianca residence, and by his own admission, tied them up.
"Yes he has admitted that."
Now knowing that Charlie was very aware of what happened at Cielo Drive (he went back to see what his children had done), are you saying that he didn't tell them to kill the LaBiancas? What do you think....that he wanted them to read them bedtime stories???

"In court ackording to the law that dosen´t prove that he orded the killings. I still say it was Susan Atkins that came up with the idea, to free Bobby Beauselil, by copy cat murders.">>>

V717, you are avoiding the obvious.

I'm really tired of going thru the motions of convincing you that Charlie was in charge. He was always in charge. He never lost control until after he was sentenced to death, and he still has control...of people like you.

That's a shame. I would think that his stigma had worn off by now.

He's still brainwashing people.

I've tried to help you, but to no avail.

Susan Denise Atkins didn't order murder. She didn't order copy cat murder. She was a crazy mixed up bitch, due in large to Charlie's constant drug cache and her crazy personality.

But Susan Atkins never killed anyone. And I'll say further, that she never inflicted harm on anyone. She never stabbed anyone. She was a mouthy bitch that brought down the ceiling on the murderers. If it wasn't for her mouth, they may never have figured out who did the murders.

But she was so nutzoid that she bragged about it in prison.

And Charlie hates her for that. He will always hate her for that.

Too fucking bad.

Charlie ordered the murders, he ordered the Cielo Drive murders, he not only ordered the Waverly Drive murders, he drove them there himself. He's guilty as charged.

Period.

katie8753 said...

And Charlie is the one who told the girls to come up with the "copy cat" crap and put the blame on LINDA, because she testified against him.

"She Snitched".

He did this after he was convicted. During the penalty phase.

After he realized that he was going down. He threw all the girls under the bus to get out...to no avail. The jury didn't buy his crap.

katie8753 said...

Well, the hearing for Casey Anthony took place today, and nothing was decided. That bearded motherfucker that was her attorney kept popping up and down like a demented jack-in-the-box and objecting and laughing like a fucking clown, and made a complete fool of himself.

Judge Belvin Perry will take it under advisement and will rule before September 20th. Keep in mind that Casey Anthony lied her fucking ass off about everything. That's what this is based on.

Stay tuned!!! Casey can strip all she wants, but she's gonna owe money, and I don't care how much they argue about if people know about her income, but the IRS always knows!!!

HA HA.

v717 said...

Katie 8753
About Tex Watson. Shortly before the murders, by more or less misstake Tex
happened to partace of a large dose of belladonna. Belladonna is quite poisounous and should be administered in very small doses.
After that he took a ride into the city and ended up slithering across a sidewalk in Van Nueys on his hands and kness through a crowd of schoolchildren, unable to walk or talk except making little mechanical sounds, over and over: Beep, beep, beep, beep. Before it was over he encountered little space people in flying saucers beeping back at him. Tex ended up in an arrest for public intoxication. The arrest resulted in Tex being fingerprinted and later on one of those fingerprints would match a print from the front door at Sharon Tates place.
It is also well known that Tex and Susan Atkins had their own little joint venture together in form of probably cocaine. Manson had strictly forbidden any use of hard drugs. But this indicate that Manson wasn´t that much in charge as people usually think he was.
Susan has also confessed that before they drove up to Cielo Drive she and Tex "out of side" from Manson sniffed a large dose of Coke.

mattprokes said...

lynn-rumor has it that grants back on the hard stuff again just a rumor but that would explain why hes so gaunt these days.
i've seen bits and pieces of color me obsessed on yt.
who knew that tom arnold was a mats fan?
if you want get my email from l/s cos i've got some questions about the film and hd that i don't want to clog the blog with
v717 are you saying that tex and sadie were dealing coke/speed from the ranch?
i was under the impression that they just had a stash of speed for their own use but if they had their own "joint venture" going manson would probably have known about it and as you said that would imply less control over at least the two of them.

Lynn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Lynn!

I'll send you his e-mail address...

mattprokes said...

got your message lynn will write later tonight.
i remember norm from cheers on letterman wearing a pleased to meet me tshirt on letterman saying what a great band they were before i even knew who they were
bizarre fanbase

mattprokes said...

i remember some mats references on that mystery science theater show.

katie8753 said...

I LOVE Joel Hodgson. Love MST3K. Funny, funny show!

katie8753 said...

Hi V717.

I know about Tex's adventure with Belladonna. I think he said Gypsy boiled up a root or something.

And I know about Tex's and Sadie's baby food jar full of speed.

And yes it was against Charlie's rules.

But I'm not sure if that's enough evidence that Charlie wasn't in charge. Perhaps Tex & Sadie did devilish things that Charlie wasn't aware of here and there, but certainly not murdering 7 people without Charlie's permission.

Lynn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

((((((((((NORM))))))))))

LOL

Venus said...

I'm new to the blog and am skimming through several threads. I noticed a post here by Katie8753 (dated 8/31/11) and she asked if the footage at Jay's house was before or after Sharon and Roman got together. It was very clearly AFTER they got together because, in the close-ups of her when she's sitting by Jay, you can clearly see her wedding ring.

katie8753 said...

Hi Venus!! Welcome to the blog. Comment as often as you like!

Thanks for pointing out Sharon's ring.

Wow, that opens up a new worm hole. Sharon and Jay were so touchy feely in that film. And this is before she became pregnant. I'm assuming it was Roman's baby....or Rosemary's Baby. LOL.

I've often wondered about those two, Sharon and Jay, even until the end, they were closer than thieves. I often wonder why she married Roman. That's like opening Pandora's Box.

I wonder who was filming this? I guess Roman didn't care.

I hate to say this, but in the 60's, there seemed to be some kind of "free love" that even married people didn't see boundaries.

That's really sad when you're talking about impending births. There should be a bond somewhere.

Sad....

Venus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Venus said...

Thanks for the welcome, Katie 8753. The relationship between Sharon, Jay and Roman is very intriguing. Some say that thei relationhip continued even though she was married. Others say that Jay might've been the father of the baby. Allegedly, he was the one who told her parents that she was pregnant. Why would he do that? They were very touchy-feely in that footage. Even though it was a different era, they seemed to not have any hesitation at showing their affection for each other. Jay seemed to know that Sharon would accept a kiss and she certainly followed him with her eyes as he walked away. Just friends? Maybe, maybe not.

Venus said...

The photo of Jay with George Peppard was taken on the set of "The Blue Max" in August of 1965. George paid Jay $2500 for the trim. Of course, it's possible that the studio actually paid it. Some accounts have claimed that it was $25,000.00, but that's untrue. Think how much $2500 was in 1965!

CarolMR said...

Venus, you are the expert on all things Jay Sebring! I've seen this video before and the look Sharon gives Jay after he kisses her and walks away...Wow! I honestly don't know what was going on there. If Roman was shooting the video, that's really weird.

Venus said...

I'm pretty sure it wasn't Roman filming the footage. I can't remember the name of the guy who comes down the stairs (and I do know it, I'm just blanking out on it right now), but he was a friend of Roman's and Sharon doesn't exactly appear to be excited to see him when he interrupted her walk with Jay. It looks like she was telling him a thing or two and then he puts his arm around her as if to say "there, there, shut up now." haha I'd love to know who filmed it and if there's more footage.

Venus said...

Thanks for the compliment, CarolMR.

katie8753 said...

>>>Venus said: 'm pretty sure it wasn't Roman filming the footage. I can't remember the name of the guy who comes down the stairs (and I do know it, I'm just blanking out on it right now), but he was a friend of Roman's and Sharon doesn't exactly appear to be excited to see him when he interrupted her walk with Jay. It looks like she was telling him a thing or two and then he puts his arm around her as if to say "there, there, shut up now." haha I'd love to know who filmed it and if there's more footage.>>>

Hey thanks Venus! I was wondering who that guy was. I love the way you're reading the "body language" in this film, because we obviously don't have sound. Yes, Jay and Sharon were VERY lovey dovey in this clip. I can't help but wonder if Roman cared. I kinda think not. He seemed awfully busy with his own social life. HA HA.

Venus said...

LOL Katie8753. I wonder if we'll ever know the truth about what was going on. Were they just friends or had their relationship continued? Saron had to be tired of roman flaunting his affairs all over the place. Maybe she was realizing that she made a mistake????

I still can't think of the name of that guy which is really frustrating. Did you notice that jay stops walking with Sharon when he sees him? I found that to be pretty interesting. Does it mean something? I don't know but it seems weird.

Roman was probably glad that Sharon was keeping busy because it didn't interfere with his personal life.

Body language is a big interest of mine. I think the connection between Sharon and Jay is very strong. Look at the way they look at each other when they're sitting side by side, look at the way they lean towards each other.

I could discuss this topic for hours, haha.

katie8753 said...

Venus!!! We could discuss this topic for days. We should make another thread of it!!! HA HA.

I surely wish you'd come to the current thread. Everyone would LOVE your witty banter!!

>>>Venus said: Sharon had to be tired of roman flaunting his affairs all over the place. Maybe she was realizing that she made a mistake????

I can't for the life of me figure out why she married him anyway. Money??? I've read that she was going to be rid of his ass after the baby came. Don't know if that was true...and she didn't get the chance.

>>>I still can't think of the name of that guy which is really frustrating. Did you notice that jay stops walking with Sharon when he sees him? I found that to be pretty interesting. Does it mean something? I don't know but it seems weird.>>>

I noticed that too. Very strange. I don't think I would have noticed that guy except for the fact that Jay seemed to shy away.

>>>Body language is a big interest of mine. I think the connection between Sharon and Jay is very strong. Look at the way they look at each other when they're sitting side by side, look at the way they lean towards each other.>>>

Oh the connection is unmistakable. Like you said...Sharon watched as he walked away...she leaned up to kiss him when he was leaving....she sat by his side when they were all talking, leaning into him to laugh...I could go on and on. I'm into body language too, and it seems easier to interpret body language without sound.

I like to play the piano in the dark. I can hear it better. I think that when you can't see...you hear better. And when you can't hear...you see better.

Anyway, do you know if the girl in the swing that Sharon is laughing with is Debra Tate? I've always thought that.

Also, this house that Jay bought just fascinates me. I'm not sure why. I think it's the architecture, all the steps and nooks and crannies!!!

Venus said...

Ohhhh, Katie, you and I need to get together, pop a big bowl of popcorn (not the microwave kind) and have a couple of ice cold Dr. Peppers and chat about this for a couple of days! Seriously!

I've also heard that Sharon was planning to leave Roman after the baby was born if he didn't shape up and, it's VERY doubtful that he would've shaped up. I think the writing was on the wall there.

Why did she marry him? For name recognition? Was it really love? I just don't think there seems to be a big connection between them in photos. He seemed to have control issues, have you ever noticed how they're always posed so that he appears to be taller? Was that an ego issue with him?

I don't think that was Debra in the swing, but it might've been. I don't think she would've been invited to a party at Jay's house. I've heard that Sheila Wells is on the swing.

As for Jay's house, I LOVE it too. Let's go for a visit, ok? Did you ever see photos of the mural that was inside it?

The turret was supposedly where Jean Harlow would go when she wanted to pout.

Venus said...

Another thread would be fine with me!

katie8753 said...

Venus...a big bowl of buttered popcorn (gotta have buttered), and some ice cold Dr. Peppers. Sounds marvelous!!

You hit the nail on the head with the "staged photos" of Sharon and Roman. Either he was always on a step above her, or she was hunching down, because he always seemed to be either taller than her, or the same height. I'm sure she was taller than he was, and she probably had to spend another $500 or $600 on flats and get rid of the heels.

I really can't understand why she married him. He wasn't attractive, he wasn't a nice guy, he wasn't faithful, he didn't speak good English...maybe it was the "bad foreigner boy" image or the up-and-coming director image. I just can't say.

I don't know a lot about Sharon Tate, I've read a lot of things...don't know if they're all true, but I think she was kind of strange and hard to understand. You know, even on this film of her at Jay's house, it all seems staged to me, like she's acting. I just get that feeling....

The only reason I'm thinking it was Debra Tate on the swing is that when I first saw this film a few years ago on You Tube, someone made the comment that it was Debra. Debra was ten years younger than Sharon, and if Sharon was around 25 when this film was made, Debra would have been 15. And it appears to be a teenager in the swing. Sheila was Sharon's age.

>>Venus said: As for Jay's house, I LOVE it too. Let's go for a visit, ok? Did you ever see photos of the mural that was inside it?

The turret was supposedly where Jean Harlow would go when she wanted to pout.>>>

I didn't see the photos of the mural. Did I miss something.

That turret is fascinating. That whole house fascinates me. If I ever got the chance to go in there, I'd definitely want you to be there. We have the same curiosities.

If you're interested in another thread on this subject, just e-mail Lynyrd any new info you have and he will forward to me and we'll give it a go!!!

katie8753 said...

Something else about that film of Sharon at Jay's house. It appears that Sharon is always acting.

She's laughing hysterically with the girl in the swing, but she's always grabbing her hair and making sure she has a good camera angle.

It's the same way throughout the film. She knew the camera was on her. So she had to put on a show.

There's clip on You Tube of her and Roman with Hugh Hefner, and again, it's obvious that she's acting.

I'd like to know what the real Sharon Tate was like.

Timur Ku said...

murders use guns and you cannot apply bare hands against it..jay was a veteran of war but he was not armed.

L. ROSS said...

@katie8753, no the girl in the swing that Sharon was talking to was not her sister Debra. At the time of Sharon's death Debra was a slender teenager. And Debra's better looking even now than that woman in the swing was.

L. ROSS said...

@katie8753, No, the girl Sharon was talking to in the swing was not her sister Debra. At the time of Sharon's death Debra was a very young looking, slender teenager. And even today Debra is better looking than the woman in the swing. If you ever see photos or video of Sharon's funeral you might see how very young and slender Debra was, and it would be clear that Debra was not the one in the swing.

L. ROSS said...

@kate8753, you said to someone here in a post that you don't know Sharon could have been lonely...with friends and the guests and so on at the house coming and going. Sharon was lonely for Roman. He was prolonging his stay in Europe. And she was tired of the house guests.

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