Wednesday, August 3, 2011

Book Club Discussion #4
Ed Sanders, "The Family", Pages 66-83.
In August of 1968, Charlie asked if the “family” could move into the outlaw shacks at the back of the ranch.  The residents said “okay for a few days”. HA HA.  After a few days, Charlie conned Spahn into letting them stay in the wooden-barred jail in the front ranch. 
The ranch located at 12000 Santa Susanna Pass Road, was bought by Spahn in 1948. 
It had once belonged to silent movie actor, William S. Hart.  Ruby Pearl, in her late forties during the Manson era, managed Spahn’s ranch affairs, wearing a cowboy hat, and riding clothes.  Pearl was rumored to have a great autograph book, containing the signatures of all kinds of entertainment figures, who had visited the ranch.

The family meets 16 year old, Spahn ranch hand, Steve Grogan, a/k/a Clem, a/k/a Scramblehead.  One day, Clem took Wilson's red Mercedes out for a spin, and when trying to see how fast it would go, he crashed it on the Santa Susanna Pass.  When he reported it to Dennis, Dennis didn't respond for a while, then asked “where is it“?  They went back to find it, and according to the story, it was gone.  They also meet Juan Flynn.  Charlie liked his LSD-laden bloody Vietnam stories.

The “garbage runs” are described in detail… and also, that they played “cowboys and Indians”, “Mexican knife fighters”, “flatlanders vs. the hill people”, etc.

"One of the girls (Manson always thought it was Sadie, since she had a lot of "men friends") brought the Vietnamese clap to the ranch in the summer of 1968.  It was such a bad outbreak, they all had to be treated to be rid of it.  Juan Flynn had such a bad case, it took 3 months to clear it up. (Poor Juan... no nookie for 3 months, HA HA).

Charlie thought old George wasn’t really blind, that his ex-wife turned him that way because of her bitching.  He also established the fact that no one could wear glasses.
Charlie pretty much managed to take over Spahn Ranch with the help of his “family”, convincing George that they were helping out with chores, cleaning, cooking, etc. 
Poor old George was just too confused.

On August 16, 1968, Yeller, Mary, Katie, Sadie, Mary Ann Scott, Robert Bomse, Peter Kornbuth and Eugene Nagel were released in Mendicino Co. Charlie sent Brenda & Squeaky to get them in the black bus, but it broke down in San Jose.

In June 1968 Leslie Van Houten hooks up with Bobby Beausoleil and others.  When Bobby learned that the bus broke down in San Jose, he came to the rescue and somehow came up with a newer bus, which was also painted black.

A schoolteacher named Joan Wildbush, a/k/a Juanita, picked up (4) hitchhikers: T. J., Tex, Ella & Clem.  She was persuaded to drive to Spahn’s Ranch and meet Charlie.  There, she gave up $11,000 from her trust fund.

Around this time, the family got a new bus, a 1956 GMC for $600.  The family painted this one light green.

The family started hanging out at The Fountain of the World.  In August of 1968, some of the family spent about a week there.  Charlie ended up giving them $2,000 of the Wildbush money.

One day in September 1968, Charlie gave Wilson & Jakobson a deadline.  It was time to choose, or not choose, to record his songs.

“Tex Watson of Copeville Texas, the former sports editor for his high school yearbook, joined the family forever that fall.  He gave up his wig shop on Santa Monica Boulevard, and he gave to Manson, his 1935 Dodge pickup truck”.

There was an interesting article that appeared in a Berkeley newspaper, written by a person named Blaine.  The article supposedly tells of the involvement of Manson in a “death cult” in the summer and fall of 1968, operating out of Waller Street Devil House in the Haight.

In the early fall of 1968, Bobby and his “girlfriend-wife” (as Sanders describes her) Gail, moved to Santa Barbara and lived on a houseboat.  Gail split, and went back to San Francisco… while Bobby remained, living in his houseboat.  Charlie asked Bobby to come back and prepare a record album, so he returned to Spahn’s.

On October 7, 1968, Sadie gave birth at the back ranch, to a premature baby boy, whom she named: Zezo Zece Zadfrak.  It was a breech delivery.

On October 13, 1968, two ladies, Clida Delaney and Nancy Warren, were beaten and strangled to death with 36” leather thongs about 6 miles south of Ukiah, CA on the 101.  The thongs were left tied around the necks of the victims.  These murders are the first of a series of unsolved murders that occurred when various family members were in the area.  Some say they were committed by the family.
Thread written by Katie!  Thanks Katie!!  Great Job!!

85 comments:

katie8753 said...

Okay everybody, make sure you do the selected reading! HA HA.

Is anyone familiar with the part that says that Manson was part of a "death cult" that operated out of the Waller Street Devil House in the Haight?

When they tortured & exorcised "Pussycat"?

I wonder why Manson's parole officer's wife would be appointed as a foster parent for Pooh Bear when Mary got arrested.

St. Circumstance said...

Not keep harping on this- but I told you early on that this was theme to Sanders..

Just prior to the Devil house on Waller Stuff- you notice he talks about " Brother Eli"

I told you before these are Process terms.... and I specifically mentioned Eli before.... now remember in most later additions the process stuff had to be edited out...

so he has to rely on references such as those to let people know, and the edited stuff all mentions specifically that Eli ( victor wild) was a hard core process member...

now when counting out all the points about the Waller street house notice the title of the Protaganist " Father" P again that is Process ( brother sister- father- they referred to each other in family terms- as Bugs pointed out as one of the similarities with Charlies family)

and in point #29 notice he says "when a member of the final church died" Father P and Blaine...

he cant say the official title-

The Process Church of Final Judgment...

St. Circumstance said...

Sanders believed, or at least wrote from the angle, that very dark people were involved and behind this whole thing...

He made it out to be much more diabolical than it probably was...

and Made Charlie out to be involved with much more important people in the underground than he probably was..

I mean the Haight was the place to be during that one small speck of time in life for people in that lifestyle...

there were many poeple there at the time, and to assume that they all were in cahoots- because they lived in certain proximity, or used some the same language.. and when half the people who were there cant remember where they were on any given day/night lol

by those standards- it would be hard to rule anything out...

although like everything else...

who knows?

St. Circumstance said...

I mean think about something...

Bobby played in the Haight at this time with a couple of his own banks according to his website...

and he says he shared the stage with the Dead a couple of times...

if this is true...

we know that the Fugs ( including one Ed Sanders) played at the acid tests during this same time with the Dead-

So Was Sanders hanging around with Bobby??? Shouldn't they have at least crossed paths?

because according to his own logic..

if they were in the same area during the same time- and they were bound to be tied together in the future.. and had anything at all in common with each other

they had to have been up to no good together...

katie8753 said...

Thanks Circumstance. But did that stuff really happen? Or can you say?

bobby said...

http://www.bestfriendsinfo.com/History.html

Great post Katie.

The attached site explains how the process church evolved into best friends animal shelter.

St. Circumstance said...

Katie- My apologies..

I went one without saying what a great post you wrote :)

I can say the stuff about Bobby/ Sanders being in the area doing music within the same circles is true..

If Bobby is to be believed- and regarding this stuff- there is plenty of evidence to back that he is... his bands did play at some of the Diggers events- as did the Dead, and I have old posters advertising the acid tests which list both the Dead and the Fugs...

The Manson Process stuff...

I have no idea- but doubt it greatly

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Interestingly enough...

In "part 2" of the Watkins footage below (submitted by MattP)... a caller asks Paul directly, about "The Process Church"... (1 minute and 50 seconds in)... and Watkins plays it down, like it's inconsequential bunk. He dismisses the notion quickly... like it's a mere footnote.

That's pretty much my take.

Manson surely met these types of folks, and picked-up a few "tricks" for his 'repertoire" ("rap") from them.
He was probably influenced by these groups, as anyone of the time (and place), likely was... maybe moreso, than some.
But, in the grand scheme of things... I don't think it's a sizable part of this picture/case.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Bobby & Circumstance!!!

I have to admit, reading about this devil worshipping cult stuff makes my head hurt. HA HA.

It does seem like when you read up on this stuff happening in California during this period, it always seems to involve Manson and his family at some juncture.

But...that stuff about "Pussycat" seems too weird even for Manson! LOL.

St. Circumstance said...

I am in agreement that L/S is quite right

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd I agree. It seems too much of this cult stuff is interwoven into this case.

I agree that Manson probably experienced a lot of this stuff, in prison, and on the street. But knowing him, he was his own man, capable of making his own decisions and rules.

I can't imagine him being in any group that he wasn't the leader.

katie8753 said...

I have a hard time believing that all the unsolved murders in the Ukiah area at that time should all be pinned on the Manson Family.

I just don't see the connection!

There's always a reason for killing. But these random killings just don't add up!

beauders said...

the other interesting thing about the warren/delaney murders is that delaney was in her eighth month of pregnancy when murdered.
also doesn't sanders speak of father p in the first edition, the one not edited? why would he call him father p and not father whatever from the process, since he (sanders) had not got in trouble yet for writing about the process. also the father p. cult was homosexual and the process was not and was being run by a woman, maryanne degrimston, even though her husband was the figure head. i think the father p. cult was seperate from the process.

katie8753 said...

Those are good questions about The Process Beauders. I don't know the answers. Maybe St. Circumstance can help you out on those.

I believe it was Nancy Warren who was 8 months pregnant and Mrs. Delaney was her grandmother.

It is quite a coincidence that Mrs. Warren was eight months pregnant, like Sharon. But I don't think that Tex had a penchant for killing pregnant women.

This was in the fall of 1968, and I just don't think the family had gotten to their murderous rage yet.

St. Circumstance said...

Beauders...

The term itself " father" is the reference I refer to- not the individual person..

Calling him "father" p is the subtle hint I believe.... he used to let the informed reader know which group he was speaking of... again- in the same part he outlines the situation with Father P and mentions towards the end that Blaine and Father P do go somewhere after the death of a final church member..

also in the same list point #3 - I believe it is- mentions ( again) the Process church, and operating out of the devil house...

now in the original edition- he had chapters and pages about the process church..

In all later editions- there are only references like these..

On the Charlie Manson .com page - you used to be able to read the deleted stuff- maybe you still can...

But after reading it myself- along with Maury Terry's book ultimate Evil which relied itself partly on Sanders..

It is fair to conclude that Sanders believed Manson was attached to either the Process itself or one of its splinter groups...

I believe he is trying to tie this together is passages like this without coming right out and accusing anyone specifically- but showing as much evidence as possible they were all doing these weird things together...

I think Beauders you may be right in that this specific homosexual group was not directly Process- but I think he is trying to tie them all together in a sense- by showing that they all ran in the same circles...

Again you are right- by most of what I read the Process revolved around Maryanne and Not Robert- and in deed when there was a fight- she maintained control right up until it became what it is today- as linked on this blog earlier.. an animal retreat in the Northwest...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

This section of the book, brings us to Tex's Wig Shop, and "Gail".
A couple "hard-hitting" questions arise...


In regards to Tex's "Wig Shop":

A friend came-on the blog, way back, and claimed that Tex's wig shop, was very close to a shop, owned by Jay Sebring... in the same "strip mall" actually.
He also stated the men knew each other from that experience.

Any takers???
Any more (or less) information on that proposition?

---------------------------------

In regards to Bobby's girlfriend "Gail"... sometimes referred to as "Gale"... whom, according to Sanders, Bobby lived with, on a houseboat:

Sanders describes her as Bobby's “girlfriend-wife”...

Wife?
Girlfriend?
I've heard both... which is accurate folks?
Why would Sanders use the word "wife" at all.
I even heard (quite convincingly) they had a daughter together.

Marliese said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...>>>>

In regards to Tex's "Wig Shop":

A friend came-on the blog, way back, and claimed that Tex's wig shop, was very close to a shop, owned by Jay Sebring... in the same "strip mall" actually.
He also stated the men knew each other from that experience.<<<<



Lynyrd,

The wig shop where Tex worked was on Santa Monica Blvd in Beverly Hills, and Jay's shop was on Fairfax near Melrose in West Hollywood. A few miles apart.

St. Circumstance said...

Marliese is right on...

I read in something I have that on a typical day they could have passed each other on there way to work at one point in time out there..

St. Circumstance said...

but you can pix of Tex's old wig shop on the Inside the LC blog I always talk about- and it is not near the site of Jay's....

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Marliese!

You're AWESOME as usual... as are you, Saint C!!!

St. Circumstance said...

Here is the exact quote- and then no more of this conspiracy stuff- people dont seem to like when i post this stuff... I dont believe all of it- but it is interesting to me nonetheless...


Charles “Tex” Watson, who allegedly led the death squad responsible for the carnage at Cielo Drive, lived for a time in a home on – guess where? – Wonderland Avenue. During that time, curiously enough, Watson co-owned and worked in a wig shop in Beverly Hills, Crown Wig Creations, Ltd., that was located near the mouth of Benedict Canyon. Meanwhile, one of Jay Sebring’s primary claims-to-fame was his expertise in crafting men’s hairpieces, which he did in his shop near the mouth of Laurel Canyon. A typical day then in the late 1960s would find Watson crafting hairpieces for an upscale Hollywood clientele near Benedict Canyon, and then returning home to Laurel Canyon, while Sebring crafted hairpieces for an upscale Hollywood clientele near Laurel Canyon, and then returned home to Benedict Canyon. And then one crazy day, as we all know, one of them became a killer and the other his victim. But there’s nothing odd about that, I suppose, so let’s move on.

katie8753 said...

According to Tex in his book, the wig shop that he and his friend Rich started on their own, Love Locs, was on San Vicente off La Cienega.

Marliese, is this anywhere near Jay's shop???

katie8753 said...

Something else I'd like to say about Tex, and everyone might not agree. LOL.

I think that before Tex went to CA, he was pretty much just an ordinary guy back in the 60's. Brought up in a religious, close-knit family, always taught to do the right thing, etc. A little lazy and a little curious about life.

Maybe his independence away from a strict mother while in CA changed him some, but I really think that when he joined the family is when he really changed.

The constant drug taking and brainwashing sermons took its toll on him. If you look at pics of him in high school and see mug shots after he joined the family, he looks like a totally different person.

I do believe that people can eventually be conditioned to do or think anything....even kill.

Had Tex never moved to CA....would the victims still be alive??? Would he have gone to college and become and business man and had a productive life?

St. Circumstance said...

I dont know- I keep thinking of him with that cheesy mustache he had in hi slate twenties and I imagine...

a cocaine addicted, cheating on the wife with several pigs, neglecting his 5 children used car dealer...

who one day kills someone over some selfish reason....

I really cant stand this bastard...

Drugs and partying beyond reason happened to thousands of kids like him.... it happened to me and many of my friends...

most of us handle it to some degree, and even when the line is blurred beyond belief from drugs, or whatever else...

there comes a point in it - where 99% of us just wont cross.

Tex did...

As a life long abuser of Drugs and Alchohol- let me tell you from personal experience...

If Tex had been doing Tequila shots or Jaiger bombs all night- I would not buy- but listen to that as a reason for what came over him that night...

but Psychedelic drugs and Marijuana- should make you LESS likely to do things like that..

He says he Snorted Speed...

That would make more sense I guess

I really dont think there is any excuse for the animal he was..

katie8753 said...

St., I'm certainly not trying to excuse Tex either. Nor am I defending him. I think he's a baby-killing pig.

I've never taken drugs in my life, so I don't know what the effect is. I guess it might differ from person to person, depending on chemicals in the brain.

Just like drinking...some people get nice and fall asleep when they're drunk and some are "mean drunks".

Plus he took belladonna and from what I've heard, that's pretty wicked.

I think it's possible to do drugs every day, several times a day, for days on end and end up with scrambled brains. I think that's very possible.

Not just Tex, but the girls too. Pat, Susan & Leslie (well I'm not sure about Leslie...ha ha).

Marliese said...

katie8753 said...>>>
According to Tex in his book, the wig shop that he and his friend Rich started on their own, Love Locs, was on San Vicente off La Cienega.

Marliese, is this anywhere near Jay's shop???<<<<


Hi Katie, a few miles. The wig shop where Tex first worked was on Santa Monica in the flats of Beverly Hills, the Love locs place at la cienega and san vicente would be a mile or two east of there toward west hollywood and Jay's shop on Fairfax near Melrose would be east from there in west hollywood...each place a mile or so from the next, all below Sunset.

Can't you just imagine Tex's life... living in Los Angeles in the carefree sixties, working in Beverly Hills and Hollywood, hanging out, making a little money, meeting beautiful girls, and he ends up an infamous killer.

Marliese said...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...
Thanks Marliese!

You're AWESOME as usual... as are you, Saint C!!! <<<<<<<<



Many thanks Lynyrd,
and St. Circumstance. :)

St. Circumstance said...

Katie- I know you weren't defending him- :)

I think we are on the same page about him and this...

Marliese-

He certainly had the life I dream about all the time lol...

really so much more interesting a story really..

Charlie had a typical life of a guy with his upbringing..

He ended up a petty crook which is how he was raised.


But Tex did have it pretty good- both growing up, and even when he started out in L.A.- as you point out...

how HE became the most Evil Man alive- is the real interesting thing to me...

aside from WHY ???

it is the most interesting thing...

But most people Fixate on Charlie

( I'm doing good AC- not one old goat yet)

katie8753 said...

Thanks Marliese for explaining the location of the shops. I would say a mile or two is quite a ways. Not much chance of "bumping into" each other walking to the lunch counter.

Yes, Tex had quite "the life of Riley" in Hollywood. He should have just stuck with wigs...but he got greedy.

katie8753 said...

Yeah St., there really isn't any explaining Tex. He really doesn't have any excuses for turning to drugs and turning out like he did.

He wasn't abandoned or abused as a child, wasn't in boys' homes, his parents didn't divorce, raised with good ole all-american values, surrounded by familial love, but he still took the low road.

Well, he's had a lot of years to regret that.

And I think we can safely call Tex and "old goat" and no one will object. LOL.

katie8753 said...

Ooops...I meant "call Tex AN old goat". DOOHHH!

CarolMR said...

Didn't Rosemary LaBianca also own a wig shop? Or sell wigs?

TomG said...

Tex Watson is the only person in this whole saga whom I never was able to find empathy for.

Drug abuse can explain alot of bad behavior, but it can't explain the things he did.

A complete phony. Most likely a sociopath who measures people and situations and decides who he should become.

In August of 1969, it was a killer.

Mary said...

Hi Katie -

Got the Deana Martin book today and read the pages that the discussed Terry Melcher, Tex Watson, and Charles Manson. I didn't see anything more than what Marliese stated.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Mary!!

I got on my library main page yesterday and located that book and put it on hold to pick up at my local branch. I should have it within the week. So I'll be reading it too.

Sounds interesting!!

katie8753 said...

Hi Carol!!

Rosemary owned a dress shop. As far as I know, she didn't sell wigs.

katie8753 said...

Hi Tom!!!

I don't have any empathy for Tex either and I'm not trying to excuse anything he did...believe me.

I guess I was just thinking out loud...if he didn't get involved in drugs and the family....would he still have murdered???

katie8753 said...

Okay Lynyrd, this is really off the wall...but..

I read somewhere that Bobby's "Gail" could be Gail Sloatman, who later married Frank Zappa.

She and Bobby were in Mondo Hollywood together back in 1967.

Just a maybe..... HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Okay..this just in.

Texas versus cult leader Warren Jeffs. The verdict is GUILTY as charged.

He'll be in a Texas prison.

After years of molesting and terrorizing children and murdering babies, I've only got one word of advice for him:

"Don't ever bend over for the soap".

HA HA!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint said:
>>>>"Here is the exact quote- and then no more of this conspiracy stuff- people dont seem to like when i post this stuff"...<<<<

Are you kidding me?
I Love the conspiracy stuff.

In fact, after several years of this crap, it's the only interesting thing left. LOL
Besides, it's always good for 100 replies.
I don't have to do shit, for a week! : )

Hundred bucks to the first one who can link Manson to Sharon's baby!!! Ahahahaha

I know... I'm f#ckin' demented.
Sorry folks...

Back to our regular programming.

St. Circumstance said...

Tom- very well said....

katie8753 said...

According to Sanders, Charlie banned most books and "black slave music".

He also banned glasses. That must have been a real drag to near-sighted people.

No wonder they thought life at Spahn's was beautiful. They were blind. They didn't know they were eating garbage.

HA HA.

TomG said...

St Circumstance

Your photos of the Anthonys was amazing. While I did not get aboard this case until the July 4th closing arguments, since than I was hooked.

Our gal was spotted in Columbus , Ohio.

My seven years as a bartender has taught me that you can find common ground with just about every conceiavable type of human being. But some are nice people and some are not.

v717 said...

Mary Ann MacLean was born on november 20 1931 in Glasgow, Scotland, she was an illegitimate child, and in her youth was sent to reform school. Later on she became the kept woman of several influential men during the infamous John Profumo-Christine Keeler prostitution scandal that rocked the Brittish government. During this period she met Robert DeGrimston.

katie8753 said...

Tom, I've seen the reports that Casey Anthony was in Ohio, happily shopping at Old Navy.

They're having a hearing tomorrow @ 9am Eastern time to see if she should serve her 1 year parole like she was ordered. Some type of error occurred when she was ordered to serve parole, and it was misunderstood that she could serve it in prison.

First of all, you can't serve parole in prison. That makes no sense.

I hope Judge Perry doesn't wuss out and say she doesn't have to, because she got away with killing her little girl, and she should have to pay, even if it's just being on parole.

Her attorneys are going to argue that she's in danger, but she sure didn't look like she was scared shopping at Old Navy.

She should serve her time.

katie8753 said...

Hi V717.

Thanks for your post. It sounds like Mary Ann MacLean had a hard life too.

'Splains a lot. LOL.

katie8753 said...

I feel sorry for George & Cindy Anthony, because they've lost their beautiful granddaughter...the light of their lives...their second chance at having a loving child, instead of the "bad seed" albatross that was weighing them down.

I wish them peace.

v717 said...

The Process began publishing a magazine with they called "Process."
The singer Marianne Faithful appeared on the cover in issue 3 of the magazine, lying down holding a rose.
In the Death issue of "Process" from 1971 there was a brief article by Charles Manson, entitled "Pseudo-profundity in Death. In the article Manson described death as total awarness.
(One must keep in mind what Manson talked about wasn´t physical death but instead it was about dying in mind. You can also say, get rid of the intellect or go back to were you came from, go back to basic, back to Nature. Much of Manson´s philosophy are based on these simple theses. What came first? The body or the brain? The body was of course first. It is because we have alienated us from our origin in our modern society we don´t understand what Manson trying to say. We tend to think: That guy must be crazy, when all he is doing is warning us from the consequences of what our modern life is taking us. Here comes ATWA into the picture. My comment.)

katie8753 said...

V717, I think that Charlie gleaned what he could from a variety of different arenas.

The Process Church, Scientology, The Bible, The Fundamentalist Church, The Church of Latter Day Saints, the Catholic Church, as well as every day Joe stuff, like motorcycle gangs, drug dealers, whores, pimps and Hollywood types.

As Lynyrd and I have discussed before, Charlie was to everyone what each needed.

I don't think he succumbed to any particular belief, only to what he wanted others to believe.

Charles Manson was a cult leader. If anyone doesn't know that, then they need to seek the truth.

Cult leaders lead by sucking in the victim with the belief that will adhere them to the flock.

It's as simple as that.

Why do people join cults? I really don't know. Maybe they feel like they finally belong? Lost lonely people who feel like they were never included? Then someone comes along and includes them, regardless of their faults?

That's what a cult leader does. They include people that have been excluded from most things.

Then, they isolate, and de-humanize that person or those persons. They work to take away independence, and make the victims dependent only on them.

They speak of a "final battle" or armageddon, out of which they will be the victor.

It's a timeless application.

BTW, Charlie did speak of the Bible, but only of The Revelation of John, the last book of the Bible, as far as I know.

katie8753 said...

Wow, Marianne Faithful!!

She was hot back then. She was Mick's girlfriend. She was on the cover of Tiger Beat magazine back in the 60's.

hrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. HA HA

v717 said...

Katie 8753
Sure, Charlie picked from different sources and was also to everyone what each needed.
He is as he says: The man in the mirror.
But there is also another aspect in this. Manson wan´t´s to liberate the mind. His mind games as you pointed out "The Revelation of John" all had one purpose to see the world as a chimera.
In Peter Weiss play: The persecution and assassination of Jean Paul Marat as performed by the inmates of the asylum at Charenton under the Direction of the Marquis De Sade. The play take place thirteen years after the French Revolution and we are confronted with a basic question: What to do with freedom when we have attained it. Ackording to Marat: "Organize it. Stand aside oneself for the common good." Ackording to de Sade: "Before we do something else we must get to know ourself and aim towards total individual freedom." And here is what De Sade and Manson share much the same view: De Sade: "These cells of the inner cells are worst than the deepest stone dungeon and as long as they are locked all your revolution is but a prison mutiny to be put down by corrupted fellow prisoners."
Manson: "So I went to all that and I seen that whas a bigger prison than the one I just got out of and I really didn´t care to go back to prison.
Prison don´t begin and end at the gate . Prison is in the mind, it´s locked in one world that´s dead and dying or it´s open to a world that´s free and alive."
Here is a dialog from the movie The man from Earth.
Dan: Did you have any religious beliefs or did you give it much thought?

John Oldman: You can’t get there with thought.

Dan: Do you have faith?

John Oldman: In a lot of things.

Sandy: Do you have faith in the future of the [human] race?

John Oldman: I’ve seen species come and go – it depends on their balance with the environment.

Dan: We’ve made a mess of it.

John Oldman: There is still time.. if we use it well.

----------

katie8753 said...

V717, I've never heard Charlie mentioned in the same breath as the Marquis De Sade.

The Marquis was the most evil man that ever lived. I won't even go into that.

So you're saying Charlie was into the Marquis De Sade?

And you're saying Charlie went from the Marquis to environment???

Ahhhh...

Well, I'm going to bed. We'll talk tomorrow. Okay?

Au Revoir!!!

v717 said...

Katie 8753
These were Methaphors. I´m trying to paint a broader picture here.
Manson and de Sade warn us from what will happen if we can´t handle freedom when we have attained it.
Behind every revolution there lurks a Stalin. Jean Paul Marat wrote in his paper Lámi du peuple (the friend of the people) in summer of 1790 that 500 to 600 rolling heads would guarantee the success of the revolution. But already the year after in 1791 he said that it would be of necessity to execute 200 000 people in order to save the revolution.
What Manson and de Sade is saying is that we must slow down and examine ourselves before we take any further step. We must get rid of the the prison that we all carry inside us otherwise we are predetermined to repeat the same misstakes over and over again.
Evidently some of Mansons disciples couldn´t handle this truth and started a rampage to no good at all.
We know the consequences.

katie8753 said...

>>V717 said: What Manson and de Sade is saying is that we must slow down and examine ourselves before we take any further step. We must get rid of the the prison that we all carry inside us otherwise we are predetermined to repeat the same misstakes over and over again. Evidently some of Mansons disciples couldn´t handle this truth and started a rampage to no good at all. We know the consequences.>>>

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you think the murders were comitted because of this???

v717 said...

Katie 8753
Yes, in some sense. Most people cant´t handle to much freedom. It overhelms them. They starts to think that they can do almost everything and get away with it. It takes a very mature character or a very nonchalant character not to give way to the temptation that comes with total freedom. I think Manson belongs to the latter. Manson would say: "Fuck it, it´s only money." Manson is not interested in these things. The only concern he has is how to get out to the desert and be a coyote. Manson have said: "I rather be a coyote in the desert than draped in this human form that I´m in now."
At Spahn Ranch there was to much freedom, to much drugs and to much were out of control. Manson didn´t direct traffic there, he was simply a guide or a spiritual leader. He didn´t interfere. Manson: "If they decide to drive up to Sharon Tate and kill those people there it´s their business. It has nothing to do with me."
The murders hadn´t liberated themselves from that old baggage that Manson call "the inner prison" and thus they repeated the same old misstakes once again. With total freedom also comes very big responsibility. And that is something we humans are not so god at.

katie8753 said...

V717, there was no freedom at the ranch. It was all up to Charlie. He dictated what they did, when they did it, what they ate, when they ate, when they had orgies, when they took drugs...and when they killed.

That's what a cult leader does. And Charlie was their leader.

The only way they broke free from him was after he got put in prison and they finally realized he was just a man.

v717 said...

Katie 8753
Charles Manson: Those who knew him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPraTlffZbs&feature=related

katie8753 said...

V717, you're sweet.

The video you posted was just propaganda elicited by Sandy & Squeaky. The 2 greatest automatons that Charlie ever produced.

V717, if you really want to know the truth, then listen to others besides those two.

Then you will finally know the truth about Charlie.

I've already posted information about Warren Jeffs.

Warren Jeffs was a cult leader, like Charles Manson.

He had complete control over the women-folk in his camp, just like Charlie.

Now he's been convicted...and the women-folk want him to be martyred because they think he's a God. That will only last for a while, until they realize they he's not a God, just a con man. Except, he's more than a con man. He's a pedophile.

How many Gods can there be?? LOL.

The same thing happened in the Manson family. Once Charlie was convicted, they fell off one by one, because they realized they'd been duped. He wasn't the God they thought he was.

Sandy and Squeaky were the last to realize this, and I'll bet you that even those two know now that it was a waste of a lifetime defending this con man.

They'd been duped as well.

You can believe what you want. I can't change that. But I know the truth. I hope you will learn it too.

And I hope I don't discourage you from posting. You're always welcome here!!! :)

v717 said...

Hello Katie 8753.
It´s always a pleasure to discuss with you.
I must emphasize that I don´t think that Charlie Manson is GOD.
But he belongs to a "very special " group of people that I call - High Energy People-.
These peoples has the ability to twist their thoughts and feelings and to see things in an almost infinite way of angels.
That´s something every Scientologist want´s to achive, but few has the capacity that Charlie possess. He is born with this ability. But don´t missunderstand me Manson is not a Scientologist. He is beyond that teaching. He runs his own race as the genuine SHAMAN that he is.

katie8753 said...

Hi V717.

Well we agree on one thing. Charlie is indeed "high energy". LOL.

He loves to talk. It would be easier to listen to him if he would talk about ordinary things though. All that gloom and doom gets get tiring.

Just curious....why do you like listening to him? Is he solving any problems that you have? Is he giving you hope for the future? Is he helping you with monumental decisions? Is he helping you define your image of yourself? Are you somehow projecting through him?

There are many people thoughout history who will be remembered as great orators. Some good...some not so good. But, they always seemed to reach something inside a certain group of people.

I have always wondered why anyone would join a cult. I guess maybe to finally "belong" to something? I just can't figure it out. Maybe if I understood the mentality it would make more sense.

I'm not talking about you personally....just generalizing about certain groups. :)

v717 said...

Hi ! Katie 8753
Well we agree on one thing. Charlie is indeed "high energy". LOL.
He loves to talk. It would be easier to listen to him if he would talk about ordinary things though. All that gloom and doom gets get tiring.
"Nothing about Manson is ordinary."

Just curious....why do you like listening to him? Is he solving any problems that you have? Is he giving you hope for the future? Is he helping you with monumental decisions? Is he helping you define your image of yourself? Are you somehow projecting through him?

"I can read him and I also know what kind of man that he is He has nothing new to say to me he just confirms what I always known. He´s not helping me with anything at all. Hope for the future? I trust to providence. My image of myself is splendid. It is Manson who´s projecting through me."

There are many people thoughout history who will be remembered as great orators. Some good...some not so good. But, they always seemed to reach something inside a certain group of people.
"Katie: That is called Charisma and Charlie has a plenty of that."

I have always wondered why anyone would join a cult. I guess maybe to finally "belong" to something? I just can't figure it out. Maybe if I understood the mentality it would make more sense.
"There are people who studies cult behavior. They know a lot more than I do about these things.
But I guess a simple explanation would be, a sens of belonging to a group and a yearning after recognition. Something they haven´t been able to found in everyday life. But i´m not so sure if you can call the Manson Gang a cult. I belive they just had very fun together. Every day was a new adventure filled with new experiences.
-We were a different person every day of our life. In fact, we were three, four, five different people. We changed clothing, change expressions. Just changes. You know, changes are changes-.
Susan Atkins-.
(But the last days of that endless summer was coming, my comment.)

katie8753 said...

>>>V717 said But i´m not so sure if you can call the Manson Gang a cult. I belive they just had very fun together.>>>

The Manson Family was indeed a cult. This was classical cult behavior. Removing identities, removing people from any past relationships, no watches or calendars so there is no other time but "now", brainwashing/training the kids with different types of teachings so that they would do whatever Charlie wanted.

The cult leader: Charles Manson. I don't know how anyone can think that Charlie didn't order the murders. Charlie never lost control of his "family" until he was convicted, and they got tired of waiting for his magical release and finally shrugged and went away.

v717 said...

Hello Katie 8753
Helter Skelter okay.
I must ask you? Do you think Manson is insane or have some other mental disorder?
Allegedly Ed Sanders intended to write a part two of "the family."
Do you know anything about that?

katie8753 said...

>>>V717 said: I must ask you? Do you think Manson is insane or have some other mental disorder?>>>

I don't think he's insane at all. I think he's a narcissistic sociopath. I think he really enjoys getting attention, good or bad. He brings it all on himself.

>>>Allegedly Ed Sanders intended to write a part two of "the family."
Do you know anything about that>>>

Don't know about that. The only thing I've heard lately is that he's writing a book on Sharon Tate.

v717 said...

Katie 8753
So Manson orders his followers to commit murders just to get some attention?
Have I understand you correctly?
If he did that in that purpose he surely he must be insane.

katie8753 said...

No V717. That's not what I meant.

I THINK that Manson ordered his "children" to kill because he was pissed off.

He didn't get a recording contract, he was losing control of his family because his predictions weren't coming true, he needed money to get away and hide from Crow, he was just pissed off in general, and decided to kill people that he felt were getting a "better deal" in life than he did.

When I say he wanted attention, I'm referring to his actions after he was arrested in October of 1969. During the trials, and every day of his life since.

He loves to be interviewed so he can play his "head game" talk and never really reveal what it is he's talking about.

P. T. Barnum said" there's a sucker born every minute". And Charlie just keeps finding 'em.

katie8753 said...

BTW, I'm sure that Charlie loves the attention he gets from young girls that glom onto him.

He's probably lonely in prison, and it makes him feel like maybe he's "still got it". HA HA.

bobby said...

Katie said;

"He loves to be interviewed so he can play his "head game" talk and never really reveal what it is he's talking about."

There is a good example where he is surprised when a woman comes to interview him in prison. He ask's her for the same deal he made with whom he thought was coming:

I do my little show interview with you, for you & then you do a seperate recording & send it to my friend so & so.

I would like to see those !

v717 said...

Katie 8753
You say that he was just pissed off in general, and decided to kill people that he felt were getting a "better deal" in life than he did.
So according to you Charlie suddenly should resign to himself and his ill favoured postion in life. That´s not the impression that I get from him. After over 60 years in jail he looks underservedly handsome and healty. I tell you one thing: That man is incapable to resign.
If I remember right Marlin Marynick said that he never met a man who wanted to live as much as Manson.
FBI-profiler John Douglas said: "What happened was that Manson lost control of the group and he never had any intention to start a killing spree."

bobby said...

V717 said; "FBI-profiler John Douglas said: "What happened was that Manson lost control of the group and he never had any intention to start a killing spree"

In the same interview he said manson climbed on top of his chair so that he could dominate him physically. Also you lose control of a group of people if didnt first have control can you.

Just food for thought, not trying to dis respect anyone's opinion.

katie8753 said...

Hi V717.

>>>Katie 8753
You say that he was just pissed off in general, and decided to kill people that he felt were getting a "better deal" in life than he did.>>>

Yes I do.

>>>So according to you Charlie suddenly should resign to himself and his ill favoured postion in life.>>>

And what was his "ill favored position in life?" His mother didn't like him?

That fucker had the chance to live with his grandparents who did "like him" but they were too strict so he ran away. Poor Charlie. Boo hoo.

>>>That´s not the impression that I get from him. After over 60 years in jail he looks underservedly handsome and healty.>>>

He looks like hammered shit.

But in answer to your question, he's never had to have a job, take care of himself, take care of his children, pay taxes, pay the electric bill, pay the water bill, pay anything or worry about money for 42 years.

>>>I tell you one thing: That man is incapable to resign.
If I remember right Marlin Marynick said that he never met a man who wanted to live as much as Manson.>>>

If Manson wanted to live so much, why didn't he just keep on with his harem, selling pussy and selling drugs????? HUH? Why did he kill people?

>>>BI-profiler John Douglas said: "What happened was that Manson lost control of the group and he never had any intention to start a killing spree.">>>

Bi-Pofiler John Douglas doesn't know shit. If you've even listened to me, Manson didn't lose control until after he was locked up for life. He was in complete control during the trials. Read up on it.

And BTW....Leary you're right. Manson was a Hitler supporter, no doubt. He wore the swastika long and loud.

Because he believed in Hitler.

I could say other things....but then I'll get in trouble. HA HA.

And I'll say another thing. Leary you're right about the motive. Charlie was just pissed off.

Period.

As Archie would say: "Case Closed".

katie8753 said...

>>>Bobby said: In the same interview he said manson climbed on top of his chair so that he could dominate him physically. Also you lose control of a group of people if didnt first have control can you.>>>

Bobby you're a trip!!! I love ya!!!

Smoooccchhhh!!!!

HEE HEE.

katie8753 said...

V717, just one question before I go to bed.

Why do you defend Charlie???

Why?? Just wondering.

v717 said...

Katie 8753
Katie I defend him because I belive he´s innocent to the crime he´s centenced for. And one more thing. The whole truth about these incidents has not been debunked.
Now, I must ask you a question. Why are you so interesed in the Manson case? There are thousands of murder cases even more grisly than the Tate/LaBianca killings.

katie8753 said...

>>>V717 said: Katie I defend him because I belive he´s innocent to the crime he´s centenced for. And one more thing. The whole truth about these incidents has not been debunked.>>>

So you don't think Charlie had anything to do with the murders?

He drove the killers to the LaBianca house. He tied up Leno LaBianca. That makes him guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.

He also participated in Shorty's killing. That makes him a killer.

>>>Now, I must ask you a question. Why are you so interesed in the Manson case? There are thousands of murder cases even more grisly than the Tate/LaBianca killings.>>>

That's a good question V. I do have an interest in lots of other cases, but I have stuck with this one since it happened.

This may sound dumb, but I had dreamed of going to Hollywood as a teenager and being a "movie star". Then when all this happened, it put a big damper on my plans. I guess I've resented that all these years. That's why I don't like Charlie or his bunch.

BTW....Hollywood probably would have chewed me up and spit me out....so maybe it's a good thing I didn't go. HA HA.

v717 said...

Katie8753
We are still faced with the Tate/La Bianca killings. I don´t buy Vincent Bugs Helter Skelter thing. In that overheated atmosphere that was during the trial Vincent could have declared that Manson was from outer space and the jury and the public would have belived him.
There are missing links here. To my knowledge most murdercases appears between people who already know each other and it´s mostly related to money, jealousy and revenge. In other words it´s about earthly things.
The Helter Skelter theory are suppose to be about some holy crusade towards an imminent apocalypse. If so then Manson must have or had some mental disorder.
Helter Skelter was just one of Mansons mind games. But that theory was just enough to convince the jury about Mansons guilt.
Was it the whole truth? No.

v717 said...

Katie 8753
It was interesting to hear about you going to Hollywood and try to be a movie star. I understand why you changed you plans. Those killings upset the whole country and also created headlines all over the world.

katie8753 said...

Hi V717. My eyelids are shutting now and I'm going to retire for the evening. At my age, it's just a command. HA HA.

I will reply to you in the morning when I have my wits more about me and can digest what you said. :)

Night!!

katie8753 said...

>>V717 said: I don´t buy Vincent Bugs Helter Skelter thing.... There are missing links here. To my knowledge most murdercases appears between people who already know each other and it´s mostly related to money, jealousy and revenge. In other words it´s about earthly things.>>>

V, that's one thing that makes this case so interesting. There is no evidence, not then and not now, that the killers knew any of the victims at all. This was a random killing. Like a "drive-by-pop-in".

>>>The Helter Skelter theory are suppose to be about some holy crusade towards an imminent apocalypse. If so then Manson must have or had some mental disorder.
Helter Skelter was just one of Mansons mind games. But that theory was just enough to convince the jury about Mansons guilt.
Was it the whole truth? No.>>>

No...Helter Skelter wasn't the whole truth. It was just a tool that Bugliosi chose to use, BECAUSE it involved Charlie.

Unless Bug could prove Charlie's involvement, he had no case against him.

Charlie did preach Helter Skelter. We know that. Now did Charlie believe all that crap? No. Cult Leaders are "famous" for creating some type of "end time" catastrophe, promising their followers they will survive IF they remain in the group. It's a serial tactic to scare people into staying within the group.

Now whether or not Manson has a mental disorder, I don't know for sure. Like I said, he appears to be a narcissitic sociopath. In looking at Charlie's life, and even now, I can't see that he really has ever cared about anyone but himself.

Do you think, for one minute, if he had beaten the rap at the trial and was set free, that he would have hung around the prison visiting Tex, Pat, Susan & Leslie?? I SINCERELY doubt it. He would have run off and formed a new group.

v717 said...

Katie 8753
Every theory about these murders is a "good theory" as long as it involves Manson. No need for evidence here.
If so you can add this guys theory about the murders to the collection.
A wizard on Oprah Show. To my mind he is as trustworthy as Vincent Bug.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_x72aGKWCU

katie8753 said...

V717, where did you dig up this douchebag? Please don't compare him to Bugliosi. This freakjob doesn't know a damn thing.

He called Sharon Tate "Sharon Tate LaBianca".

What an idiot!

V717, if you want to debate motive in an intelligent way, please do so, but don't throw complete dolts in my path. Please!!!

v717 said...

Katie 8753
It wasn´t me. It was Oprah who found him.
His name is Joseph Marquis.

katie8753 said...

V717, I know it was Oprah. I was wondering why you would parrot that idiot.

Hey my friend, come to the current thread. We can argue this motive thing there. Then I won't have to scroll down and you won't either. :)

beauders said...

wow, i don't care much for bugliosi but i have to say i would trust bugliosi before that wizard fool.

katie8753 said...

>>>Beauders said: wow, i don't care much for bugliosi but i have to say i would trust bugliosi before that wizard fool.>>>

That's a big 10-4!!!