Thursday, June 9, 2011

Forensic Anthropologist - Arpad Vass
A novel forensics technique has been introduced in Casey Anthony's murder trial this week.  Investigators brought in Oak Ridge National Laboratory senior researcher Arpad Vass. 
Vass, got some attention in 2008 for using his "odor detector" to search for buried bodies at a California ranch, where Charles Manson and his followers lived in the late 1960s. 
Vass' techniques have the promise to do what the noses of highly-trained cadaver dogs are able to do - sniff out decomposition and locate hidden bodies.  Vass backed the prosecution's theory, testifying monday, that he smelled an "overwhelmingly strong" odor of human decomposition in the air sample.  He told jurors that his machine found high levels of chemical compounds observed when the body breaks down, such as chloroform, in the sample taken from Anthony's car. 
Vass' technique has never before, been used in a criminal case.  It may end-up being the most controversial piece of forensics evidence presented in the trial.
Full Story Here:  http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/06/08/1697294/novel-forensics-tool-used-in-anthony.html   Thanks Mary!

113 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Vass, got some attention in 2008 for using his "odor detector" to search for buried bodies at a California ranch, where Charles Manson and his followers lived in the late 1960s".

More on Vass' work here:
http://medgadget.com/2007/01/bring_out_your.html

MrPoirot said...

Oh no! Does this mean they fired Buster?

stella1971 said...

LOL Mr. P: I forgot about Buster! I wonder if he is still in service, or if he lost his job after the failed search at Barker's Ranch.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Mary. Hi Stella!

So they need a forensic anthropologist to determine if that smell is a dead body? I guess they need scientific evidence, but for every specialist the DA presents, the defense will present 2 more that disagaree. Sigh.

Anybody who has ever smelled that odor knows what it is instantly.

And it doesn't even compare to the smell of a bag of garbage left in the trunk, which is the defense's claim.

I read in the paper today that Casey had to be "removed" from the proceedings yesterday because she was "feeling sick" (a la Sadie!!) which was conveniently invented while they were showing pictures of Caylee's decomposed skull with duct tape on it.

Amazing how much she's cried during this trial, and didn't shed a tear after her daughter went missing.

This whole case stinks. Yesterday Casey's brother testified that Casey told him "the nanny" took Caylee because she wasn't a good mother.

There is no nanny. Her family didn't know that???

Mary said...

Yeah Katie - whether she murdered her kid or the kid accidently drowned (which she is now claiming) - she did not shed a tear when she knew her body was dumped in the woods - and we all know she knew it was dumped in the woods regardless of how it happened...she partied and shopped and had a good ole time. This is obviously an act she is putting on to elict some sort of sympathy.

katie8753 said...

That's right Mary. No matter how her daughter died, it's ridiculous to think she might even be remotely innocent due to her actions after her daughter "died" and even how she acted after the body was found. No visible remorse whatsoever.

This has got to be a slam dunk case for the prosecution. I guess the only question is, will she get the death penalty. She's playing up to the jury with all these crocodile tears and this "poor me I was abused" crap.

I wonder who is paying for her defense. I sure hope it's not the Daddy.

This defense team is probably trying to get their names in the paper, but if they lose, which they will, it's not going to look good for them at all. Too late for any amount of damage control now!

starship said...

I saw yesterday where they explain that the dogs alert to any kind of human decomposition...so if, and they used this as an example, you had a blood blister or some blood caught under your fingernails, like many of us do from time to time, that all that is really is decomposing human tissue, and so if the dog smells it it will alert...just like it's been taught.

No wonder Buster got all excited out there in the desert.

katie8753 said...

Hi Pristash..errrr..Starship. HA HA.

I saw that in the paper too about the dog "alerting". I disagree with that.

I wouldn't think that blood tissue under your fingernail would come even close to the smell of a decomposing body.

I've smelled a human decomposing body and that smell was in my nose for weeks. There's no mistaking it.

A dog has more than 220 million olfactory receptors in its nose, while humans have only 5 million. In fact, a dog's sense of smell is his greatest sense.

I feel very sure that a dog can smell the difference between a dead body and a dirty fingernail. :)

MrPoirot said...

stella1971 said...
LOL Mr. P: I forgot about Buster! I wonder if he is still in service, or if he lost his job after the failed search at Barker's Ranch.

Mr Poirot replies:

Buster belongs to retired police sgt Dosty. I heard Buster gets a milkbone for every gravesite he detects. Dostie was going off bad info and Buster was always hungry. Those two things played together to create all that fuss up there at Barkers.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P. I don't doubt for a minute that there are bodies buried at Barker's Ranch. They didn't look hard enough. They aren't buried by the house, they're much further out.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I always suspected that Debra Tate was supportive (if not a catalyst) of the dig idea as well.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

The dig was called-off very pre-maturely, for reasons never disclosed.

It definitely was not a conclusive, or exhaustive search.

As far as I'm concerned... the dig never actually took place (in any true sense of the word).

Let's be honest folks... it was over before it started.
Something happened... and the plug was pulled intentionally.
You don't assemble an entire team of experts in 100 degree heat... in the middle of nowhere... with the intention of digging ONE very shallow, 3 foot deep... 10x12 hole.

It was ridiculous.
How long did the project actually last... 24 hours?

When I saw the hole, I actually chuckled a little bit.
Did everyone see the photos of that hole???

Have you ever seen a basic residiential septic tank replaced/installed?
They spend 2 (sometimes 3) days, working with heavy equipment.

Fuck these scientists, pencil-pushers, and experts with handle shovels.
Give me 20 men... with 10 bulldozers, and 10 backhoes, for a month... and I'll show you a conclusive DIG!
I'm talking about a large-scale, legitimate search... with the proper equipment, for an area that size.

Anyone who thinks that 24-hour, half-assed "dig"... which produced a hole... less than the size of a residential swimming pool, was a conclusive dig... is a whack-job.

There may not be a single body there... that's true.
But... that "supposed" dig, which was obviously called-off for reasons unknown... proved ZERO.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I'm not saying there are definitely bodies there... AND... I'm not saying there aren't bodies there, either.

What I'm saying, is this:
The dig (if you can call it that, with a straight face)... was worthless, in-conclusive, and in-complete, and proves nothing either way.

If you attack a search/dig along the magnitude/scale, I'm suggesting... with the proper manpower and equipment, for an area and task that large... with a generous timeline... well THEN my friends... you can conclude something one way or the other, beyond resonable doubt.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd I agree! I don't know why they even bothered to announce they were going to dig. They barely scratched the surface.

We're talking 1,000's of square miles of wasteland to sort thru. That's like looking for a needle in a haystack!

Any buried bodies out there could be virtually anywhere.

It was all a ridiculous waste of time.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Actually... add 10, large-scale "Loam Screeners" to my equipment list... the huge monsters used by Sand and Gravel suppliers.

You throw the dirt into those suckers in huge quantity... and it'll sift-out any large rocks, miscellaneous items... OR SKULLS! hahaha

Ken... you're a construction guy.
Are you with me? LOLOL

I'll take 20 construction guys, with heavy equipment... to locate my missing child, over a few scientists and cops any day!!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

OK... granted, I'm describing a multi-million dollar operation... which given California's financial situation, then and now... is completely prohibitive...

BUT, the fact still remains... that in order to conduct a truly "conclusive" search/dig... you'd need those types of resources... and that kind of time.

katie8753 said...

I think that's why they called that dig off so quickly. They finally realized it was going to cost so much money and they couldn't afford it.

Jeez they couldn't even find Shorty without Clem's help. Give me a break!!!

Mary said...

I don't know Lynyrd - you think 20 construction guys with big equipment working their tushs off would be more expensive than have a bunch of high priced scientists and a bunch of cops using "specialized" fancy technology?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey Mary!

Hard to say...

That kind of heavy equipment operation, would get very costly, in short order.

As for what the average "forensic archeologist" makes in a day... I have no idea. LOL

mattprokes said...

l/s
we will be back in vancouver wednesday.
this ain't over.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

ONE GOAL AGAIN??!!
Three losses in Vancouver... and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM... by ONE GOAL!

WTF?!
I'M GONNA TEAR THE HAIR OUT OF MY HEAD. LOL


We're definitely going to beat them in Boston.

We gotta win at least one game out of four in Vancouver!!

MrPoirot said...

If Buster couldnt find any graves then there ain't no graves there.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr P. said: If Buster couldnt find any graves then there ain't no graves there.>>

Mr. P, you aren't listening.

Do you know how big Death Valley is? It's 3 million acres. There are 43,560 square feet in one acre of land.

Do you know how many cadaver seeking dogs that would take to cover that much footage? Let's say one dog took care of 10,000 square feet. That's almost five dogs per acre. That's around 15 million dogs.

They didn't enlist 15 million dogs.

So, it's inconclusive.

There are bodies out there. But no one has found them yet. And as Charlie planned....they never will.

Death Valley was Charlie's private graveyard.

Spahn's Ranch was getting just a little too crowded. :)

katie8753 said...

postscript.

I don't think anyone was killed before Charlie was arrested at Barker's in October 1969. At least not that I know of.

I think the killings took place after Charlie's arrest, and possibly after Sadie squealed in November/December 1969.

I know that Charlie didn't like squealers. And I'm sure he ordered certain folks to die because he was afraid that if they were subpoenaed they would rat him out.

I truly believe that he ordered some newbies killed because of that. They knew too much because people were talking.

And I guarantee you that these people weren't buried around the house. They were buried all around the desert.

Hence, the dogs didn't pick it up.

katie8753 said...

The newbies weren't as brainwashed as the older members...thus...they were dangerous and had to die.

MrPoirot said...

There are no bodies at Barkers. No one was killed or murdered at Barkers.

Had any died or been murdered then Crockeett, Poston, Juanita and Watkins would have heard about it. The biggest crime committed in Death Valley by the Family was the road grader arson. Sadie spoke to Dostie a few days before the dig and said she knew of no bodies buried at Barkers. The other rumor mongers, white Rabbit and Vern Plumlee were repeating 2nd or 5th hand rumors. White Rabbit stupidly wrote in his autobio that 3 bikers that Diane Lake brought with her to DV were shot execution style with a 45 by Charlie.
It never happened. All the murders were extraneous to Death Valley. The community at Barkers was like a Mayberry. Everybody knew what everybody did. There are no reliable reports anyone died at Barkers or Death Valley connected to the Family.

katie8753 said...

Hi Mr. P. I love a good argument. But I think this one is going to be unresolved.

I can't prove there are bodies and you can't prove there aren't.

Sadie wasn't about to admit to any knowledge of bodies at Barker's. She was trying her best to get out of prison. That would have sealed her fate.

I'm not basing my opinion on White Rabbit or Vern Plumlee. I'm basing it on the fact that I don't think the family just "turned nice" when their leader wasn't in their midst anymore. (Remember the Hawthorne shootout?)

I think that Sandy was perfectly capable of killing. And she would have done it without a second thought for Charlie. She thought it was "war".

But...like I said, it's just my opinion and I can't prove it. :)

MrPoirot said...

Oh they could kill alright but if they did kill in the tight knit Barker community word would get out to everybody like wildfire. You couldn't kill in Death Valley and keep it a secret.

MrPoirot said...

It would be like if Floyd the Barber killed Goober. How long would that stay a secret in Mayberry?

katie8753 said...

And what if Otis killed Ernest T. Bass. Would they care about that? LOL

MrPoirot said...

If a duck would stand still you could catch him by the bill....Earnest T Bass.

Kimchi said...

From what I understand, they've re-opened the Filipo Tenerelli AND Karl Stubbs case - I know, both there bodies are accounted for so it has nothing to do with the digs...

When I was there (in Ballerat) in Dec. 2009, they had just found the missing German tourists bones, so the helecopters and Law Enforcement were "swarming" the Mengle Pass area.....it's a big place, kind of looking for a needle in a haystack thing...

But why did they dig at Spahn's too?

Kimchi said...

Hmm, new one to me..

http://www.independent.com/news/2011/jun/02/murdered-not-forgotten/

MrPoirot said...

The Zodiac killings have never been successfully tied to any Manson member though many have tried to do so ad nauseum.

I think the Col claims Bruce Davis was involved in Marina Habe's death but i dont know his evidence.

Back when Charlie was racing his dune buggy at night through Death Valley the park service used the road grader to block a road that some tourists got on and died after getting lost. Charlie was mad at this so he burned the grader. People disappear regularly in the desert. No one died at Barkers though while Charlie was there. Had Crockett and watkins and Poston not left Barkers it's possible that Charlie may have murdered them but they got out after being warned to leave.

Kimchi said...

Mr. P said:

>>I think the Col claims Bruce Davis was involved in Marina Habe's death but i dont know his evidence<<

I've seen this over and over again - I see no relevance to this case..but that's my opinion only...

>>Back when Charlie was racing his dune buggy at night through Death Valley the park service used the road grader to block a road that some tourists got on and died after getting lost. Charlie was mad at this so he burned the grader.<<

This has nothing to do with the German tourists that were lost in the 1990's...

>>Had Crockett and watkins and Poston not left Barkers it's possible that Charlie may have murdered them but they got out after being warned to leave.>>

I doubt this happened either..my question to you is, "who are they?"

MrPoirot said...

Charlie and Clem were caught two nights sneaking on hands and knees up to Crockett's cabin in Death Valley. Juan Flynn slept with a shotgun and heard them coming both times. Things got pretty hairy up in Death Valley. Read Desert Shadows and My Life With Charles Manson.

I was not speaking about the German tourist lost in the 90s. I was talking about a couple lost in 68.

Kimchi said...

Yes, I've read Desert Shadows and My Life With Charles Manson...

I've also seen the RH movies where he found a note in one of the buildings from someone scared and wanting to go home...

I also read where CNN wrote to Tex in 2008 and asked him if anyone was buried out there...and of course, he said no...

And Tex was never tried for Shorty's murder either...or even accused but he was a major player in that..think he brought that up in his book, Nooooo...why would he?

So many discrepencies in this case, we could go on forever..

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey Kimchi!

Kimchi said...

Hi LS...

MrPoirot said...

Kimchi I have a vhs tape of the origonal Hendrickson movie 'Manson 73'. It doesn't mention the note Hendrickson found. What film are you speaking about? I've not heard of that.

Kimchi said...

It's the one where he and the camera man were hot, so they rested in the shade under the veranda or porch and when they woke up the "smell" was horrible so they high tailed it out of there (Barkers)...ooeeoo

Kimchi said...

And yes, I know ooeeoo is in reference to Sanders, I was being a smart ass...

MrPoirot said...

Hmmm that must be an updated version of Manson73.

WHY was there a smell after they woke up and not when they got there?

Kimchi said...

RH was being dramatic, making the notion that there may have been a "fresh grave" close by...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

ooeeoo...

Sounds like that song the guards are singing outside the witches castle, in the "Wizard of Oz". LOLOL

I did some really quick research on the "Zodiac Killer" one night (I mean, really brief, like an hour, type of brief), and what I read, didn't seem to have anything to do with Bruce Davis.
The zodiac killer was always described as having a "crew-cut" hairstyle wasn't he?
It seems his handwriting was much different than Bruce's also.

Anyone know more about this stuff?
Opinions?

Kimchi said...

>>WHY was there a smell after they woke up and not when they got there?>>

Because when they woke up, the temperature was over 100 degrees...

Kimchi said...

Sounds like that song the guards are singing outside the witches castle, in the "Wizard of Oz". LOLOL

You're too funny...I thought of that reading Sanders too!

I think the Zodiac "connection" is once again, related to that conspiracy theory thingy...

Only thing I don't get, is when the detectives went to interview Davis, and ask him questions about this, he refused to cooperate...

MrPoirot said...

Yes Kimchi I think you're right. It sounds like Hendrickson's imagination was running full speed.

Kimchi said...

My bad Mr. P...it was actually written on his website..it's here:

http://www.exclusivefilms.com/Barker-Ranch-Breaking-News.htm

katie8753 said...

Bruce Davis was not the Zodiac killer.

Bruce didn't kill Marina Habe. I've heard that Tex did. Doesn't make any difference. No proof.

Kimchi, they can open up the the Filipo Tenerelli & Karl Stubbs cases and it won't matter at all. They should have investigated them 40+ years ago, and now the trail is dead.

RH is a trip. You can believe him or not believe him. It's up to Tinkerbell!!!

"ooeeoo...

Sounds like that song the guards are singing outside the witches castle, in the "Wizard of Oz". LOLOL"

Lynyrd you crack me up!!!! HA HA

katie8753 said...

There are so many murders you can pin on Tex because it's convenient, but there's no proof!!

Tex did turn into a mean, clean, killing machine.

But not until August 9th, 1969.

This is why I think there are bodies at Barker's Ranch. The "family" went berserk and starting killing folks. And I don't think the killing stopped after the Labiancas. I think they were just getting warmed up.

Bruce was a killer and he was still on the loose.

Sandy is a possible killer. She definitely had it in her.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bodies... bodies... everywhere.

Lynyrd's humble opinion:

I certainly wouldn't fund a search/dig out of my own pocket... and, I wouldn't vote for a search/dig which was funded out of the state of California's pocket either.
After all these years, I just don't see the justification, in committing those kinds of resources.
The one's who are currently jailed, are not likely being released soon anyway.
And, even if you did find bodies... you can't do a whole lot... without proving who's responsible anyway.

Another thing to consider:
Bodies (if there are any more), could be buried anywhere.
You can't turn the entire desert upside-down.
How hard is it to load a body into a truck, and drive a few miles, before digging a grave?
Who's to say the family would be foolish enough to bury bodies right under their own feet?
OK... Lauren Willetts' grave selection wasn't too "in-genius" (LOL)... but, you know what I mean.

Having said all that...
"IF" they DID conduct a proper, all-encompassing, exhaustive search... with the necessary resources and timeline (which will likely never happen)... I certainly wouldn't be "shocked", if they found 1 or 2 more victims.

Given all the considerations above, however... I just don't think it would be practical to even bother.

katie8753 said...

Hi Lynyrd. Bye Lynyrd. Going to beddie bye. Later!! :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

In a nutshell:

I put the chances of "The Family" having 1 or 2 more victims we don't know about, at about 15%.
I mean... it's not a completely outrageous notion.

However... the chances of a thorough dig being funded and carried-out, I put at less than 1%.

And... the chances of that "thorough dig", happening-upon the exact grave of 1 or 2 bodies in the desert... I put at about 3% tops.
Where do you start the dig?
Or better yet... where do you finish???

That's probably why the last "dig" was "concluded" in 24 hours.
These ideas seem great on paper, but when you get out there in 110 degree heat... you start to realize quickly, you're up against tremendous odds, with possibly little to gain.

Never-the-less... it would be intersting as hell, if they started digging again!
Even an outside chance (with lottery-ticket odds) of finding bones... would breathe new life into this case!
Imagine the headlines!

Peace... Lynyrd

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Goodnight Katie-ums. LOLOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

BTW...

Has anyone seen this shit yet??!! LMAO

It's taking YouTube by storm, with almost 4 million hits, in a couple days.

This girl is whacked!! LOL
It's funny up to 1 minute, 40 seconds... then it gets SCARY!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTTwcCVajAc&feature=aso

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

It's kinda sad, 'cuz the girl is cute as a bug... but, what the heck??!!

According to her... she's a "recent MBA Grad from Villanova".

Teens... if you're thinking of attending Villanova, watch this footage a couple times. LOLOL
I'm surprised the school hasn't sued her... or rescinded her degree yet! hahaha

MrPoirot said...

I hate cats.

beauders said...

i love cats, but that girl puts my affection for the critters in the normal category. hendrickson's 2nd dvd "inside the manson gang" also goes into the bad smell at barker ranch as well. the zodiac killer is not bruce davis or any family member. several of the zodiacs victims lived none of the manson family's did except crowe. this theory was 'investigated' by bill nelson and he was convinced davis was the zodiac, another reason not to believe this rediculous theory.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Beauders said>>>>
"hendrickson's 2nd dvd "inside the manson gang" also goes into the bad smell at barker ranch as well"<<<<

Yeah, I saw/heard that as well.
About 40 minutes in... (right after Gypsy gets bare-ass in the desert), he visits barkers, and says:
"Maybe it's just my imagination, or the desert sun, but I can smell death here".
The sequel, has a totally different "feel", than the original Manson73.
The presentation, the narrator's voice... even the background music, all have a different feel.
The original is presented as a straight-up documentary.
The sequel has an intentionally "spooky" tone... like danger is lurking around every corner.

Marliese said...

Honestly, i don't know how anyone with half a brain could connect Davis to the Zodiac!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey Marliese!

I agree.
Even with my very limited knowledge of the subject... the Zodiac inferences
never make any sense to me, either.
Whenever the subject comes-up... I always think, "am I missing something here"? LOL
Then... after I do a bit more research... it seems even less likely, than before I started.

Same thing with that "White Rabbit" freak.
You just look at a photo of that guy, and immediately, you think... "yeah right". LOL
"The Family" was compirised of predominantly intelligent, talented, good-looking kids.
Where the hell does that guy fit into that equation? hahaha

katie8753 said...

Hi Lynyrd. I watched that video about the "cat girl" and didn't think it was scary.

Now if her head had exploded....that would've been pretty cool. LOL.

Hi Marliese. It amazes me how the rumors that have been floating around for years and years are still being debated.

The target at Cielo was Frykowski because he and Tex were good friends and he burned Tex on drugs...

The target at Cielo was Sharon because she was into devil worship and the devil was "mad at her"...

The target at Cielo was Sebring because of devil worship and drugs...

The targets at Cielo were Folger & Frykowski because of snuff films...

Ad infinitum.

I think the only one at Cielo who WASN'T presumed to be a target was Parent. And I hope that no one is dumb enough to suggest he was the target. HA HA.

katie8753 said...

I don't know why it's so hard to conceive of bodies being buried at Barker's Ranch, Spahn's Ranch or anywhere else on this planet.

We know that the family killed and buried Shorty Shea because Charlie thought he was "squealing on them".

We know that family members made James Willet dig his own grave then shoot him because they thought he was going to squeal, then shot Lauren and buried her in the basement to shut her up.

Are we so naive to assume that no one else got offed by these people and buried somewhere???

katie8753 said...

Charlie didn't like squealers. Everyone in the family knew that.

I'm wondering how much of that plays into the fact that no one has talked all these years.

Are they still afraid of Charlie??? I wonder....

Kimchi said...

Katie said:

>>Are they still afraid of Charlie??? I wonder....<<

I doubt it...but I think they are scared of "there is no statutes of limitation on murder"..

There is an unsolved case (true)in Santa Barbara of a Jane Doe found murdered the same week Bobby was arrested...she was found in a quarry, Sue Grafton wrote a book about it(fiction) in her alphabet series...good book by the way...

And supposedly, (true) Bobby's boots had the same type of material on them that was mined from the quarry...

katie8753 said...

Hi Kimchi.

>>>Kimchi said: I doubt it...but I think they are scared of "there is no statutes of limitation on murder"..>>>

That's very true Kimchi. But I still wonder if they think Charlie still has the power to put their lights out.

The reason I say that, is because Clem got released by blabbing where Shorty was buried. It would seem that if they could shed a light on unsolved murders, it might look better for them IF they weren't involved.

Leslie Van Houten said, when being questioned about the LaBianca murders "I'm not saying anything else. I don't want what happened to Zero to happen to me."

>>>There is an unsolved case (true)in Santa Barbara of a Jane Doe found murdered the same week Bobby was arrested...she was found in a quarry, Sue Grafton wrote a book about it(fiction) in her alphabet series...good book by the way...

And supposedly, (true) Bobby's boots had the same type of material on them that was mined from the quarry...>>>

Interesting Kimchi.

I can't imagine Bobby killing some girl, but I don't know the whole story. I really thought Gary was the only fatality he produced.

If he killed that "Jane Doe" he was a very busy boy indeed. From LA to Santa Barbara in the same week. Tell me more.

Kimchi said...

>>If he killed that "Jane Doe" he was a very busy boy indeed. From LA to Santa Barbara in the same week. Tell me more.<<

Well, the girl was found in a quarry, or by the roadside there..they still haven't i'd her to this day.. (Closer to San Luis Obisbo really)

This quarry mined Diatomaceous Earth (DE) and this specific kind was only mined there..

When they arrested Bobby, there was mud on his boots, and apparently it could only have come from this quarry...

But, like everything in this case, it's still an open book..

MrPoirot said...

I never thought these other murders met any similarities to the reasons that the Family would kill for. The Family didn't kill for no reason. These other killings seemed to be killings for control issues.

katie8753 said...

>>Mr. P said: The Family didn't kill for no reason. These other killings seemed to be killings for control issues.>>>

You're right Mr. P. You could argue that there was no reason for the HTLB murders. But it all boils down to Charlie.

Hinman was killed because Charlie wanted him dead. Bobby is the killer, but felt Charlie wanted him to do it. Although the decision was BOBBY'S ultimately.

Cielo Drive? You can argue all day about who was the intended target at that house. I don't think it was any of the victims. I think Charlie was just pissed off. At whom?? Maybe Rudy Altobelli??? He dismissed him abruptly in March 1969. Maybe Charlie wanted to get even. Charlie had no idea whether he was at the house or not in August 1969.

The LaBiancas? There is no black book. That's bullshit made up by Charlie. The reason? No one knows. It wasn't because of Harold True. Leno didn't know him. Harold True was just renting the house next door. Leno moved in after Harold moved out. Never knew him.

>>>Kimchi said: Well, the girl was found in a quarry, or by the roadside there..they still haven't i'd her to this day.. (Closer to San Luis Obisbo really)

This quarry mined Diatomaceous Earth (DE) and this specific kind was only mined there..

When they arrested Bobby, there was mud on his boots, and apparently it could only have come from this quarry...>>>

Kimchi where did you hear this??? Interesting. All I can say is if Bobby did kill this girl, and it was after the Hinman killing, that maybe it was some chick that he knew and she somehow knew that he killed Hinman and she was going to go to the police and he wanted to shut her up.

When Bobby left Hinman's place, he and the girls took the 2 vehicles back to Spahn's Ranch. Then he left in one of them (the fiat I think) and was driving north to San Francisco. He would have had to pass thru Santa Barbara to get to SF. Did he stop and kill that girl???

That's very interesting Kimchi. Please expound!!! :)

Kimchi said...

Yeah, but there was "speculation" and that's all... that she might have been an acquaintance of Gary's... but the police think she might have been a runaway from Minn. to San Francisco in 1969, but she (still) has never been i'd..

Sue Grafton portrayed her as a foster child from Blythe (once again imagination and story line)..with ties to the OTO..

And like you say, why "off" her?..and why did Zero commit suicide?

katie8753 said...

Mr. P: When Charlie ordered killings, there was always a reason. We just don't know what the reason is.

The other killings that were done, yes it was a control issue. Damage control.

katie8753 said...

>>>Kimchi said: And like you say, why "off" her?..and why did Zero commit suicide?>>>

Zero didn't commit suicide. We all know that.

Why "off" her? The only reason that comes to mind is that she was going to "squeal" to the cops. And that was the ultimate betrayal in Charlie's mind. He hated pigs. Thus..."death to pigs".

He wasn't talking about rich people, he was talking about cops.

Whether his "children" knew that or not.

Kimchi said...

"Why "off" her? The only reason that comes to mind is that she was going to "squeal" to the cops."

Yeah Katie, that's my thought too, if they even had a reason..

MrPoirot said...

No. Charlie meant rich people when he said death to pigs. Charlie never targeted police.

We don't know if Zero was murdered. Zero may have stupidly pointed a loaded gun at his head. We don't know if he was murdered. All the suspects in the house were questioned seperately and told the same story. Whether accident or intentional it is considered suicide if you point a gun at your head.

Zero didn't know too much thus had to die. He only knew what everyone else knew.

We do know why Charlie murdered. We know exactly why.

Hinman was a robbery. Bobby was stupid enough to try and rob a guy with no money. Bobby was dingy. Bummer Bob. Bobby did stupid stuff.

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P said: No. Charlie meant rich people when he said death to pigs. Charlie never targeted police.>>

Mr. P. What planet are you living on???

Charlie hated the cops. Can you deny that? That was the "buzz word" in the 60's for cops...pigs.

The rich people only helped him along. For as long as they could.

Mr. P. You surprise me. You don't know about Zero???

He supposedly killed himself but the gun was fully loaded when the cops got there after his demise, and the fingerprints were wiped clean!!!

And Bruce was there.

Come on now. I thought you were a smart guy!!!

Even Horseteeth knew he was killed.

MrPoirot said...

I read the police report. Zero was ruled a suicide. It is NOT known if he was murdered. You can speculate he was murdered but that is up to you. Leslie does not know how Zero died. Yea Bruce was there-so what? He was in the den when the gun went off. Zero was in the bedroom with Little Patty. Zero pointed a loaded gun at his head and pulled the trigger. Morons shouldnt play with guns.


And NO! Charlie meant rich people when he said death to pigs. This is from the song Piggies on the White Album which refers ro rich people in their starched white shirts.

katie8753 said...

>>>I read the police report.>>>

Oh, that's nice.. So did I...

>Zero was ruled a suicide.>>>

That's because some lazy cops wanted to get dougnuts that night and it was easier that way. Just another hippy dead...who cares.

>>>It is NOT known if he was murdered.>>>

Well you can add two and two together and come to the conclusion that he was.

Did you not read in the police report that the gun was fully loaded when the police got there??? Well...I would assume that if Zero axed himself with one bullet to the temple, the there would be only 5 casings left. Hellloooooo!!!!

Plus all the fingerprints were wiped off. I wonder who did that??? Bruce or Little Patty. Doesn't that make you wonder??? It makes me wonder.

>>>You can speculate he was murdered but that is up to you.>>>

Oh thank you. That's nice!!

>>>Leslie does not know how Zero died.>>>

No she doesn't but I can guarantee fucking-tee you that she was in on a whole lot more than you have ever been on, and she surmised it.

>>>Yea Bruce was there-so what?>>

This is just gettin' better and better.

>>He was in the den when the gun went off. Zero was in the bedroom with Little Patty. Zero pointed a loaded gun at his head and pulled the trigger. Morons shouldnt play with guns.>>>

How can you be so pompous as to think you know how a man who didn't have any suicidal tendencies to put a gun to his head for no fucking reason at all.

>>>And NO! Charlie meant rich people when he said death to pigs. This is from the song Piggies on the White Album which refers ro rich people in their starched white shirts.>>>

Aaahhh, Mr. P. Do you really believe this???? Do you really think that Charlie went by every Beatles song??? Dang it.

You have been sucked into Charlie's bullshit along with countless others.

Should I align you with AC?

Sigh.....

I thought you were smarter than that.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie:
"Pigs" was a term Manson and Company, used to describe rich, hollywood, corporate, establishment, "frivolous" types (for lack of a better word/description).
Those concerned (in their estimation), with success and excess, rather than the environment, and communal, global concerns... etc.

It was a term used in a very broad sense.
In short... it was the "haves", as opposed to the "have nots".
Think of it as the folks Manson was jealous, or bitter towards... and I suppose you'd be on the right track.
Or... even shorter... "pigs" = "The Man".

You're right... the word "pigs" was a very specific term, commonly used to describe policeman, by the general public... yes.
AND... I'm certainly sure the police, were not Manson's favorite folks... he likely hated them.
But... that's not what the words "pigs" stands for... when they say "death to pigs", and such.

It's a much broader concept.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie... have all the fun you want debating this subject with Poirot... but please... leave AC out of this discussion.

This discussion has ZERO to do with her.
There's no need to insult her, or reference her name, what-so-ever.
That's totally un-called for... and, I won't have it.

MrPoirot said...

At the instant Zero pulled the trigger the gun had 6 bullets in it. Yep, fully loaded. When the cops got there one bullet had been fired of the six. That was Zero's mistake. He didnt think the gun was loaded. NOBODY RELOADED THE REVOLVER.

katie8753 said...

Whether "pigs" meant "rich people" or "cops" is up for debate.

Charlie loved the "rich people" because they could give him something he never thought he would have.

On the other hand, the cops did nothing but hassle him his whole life.

When the Beatles came out with the song "Piggies" Charlie talked about that with his "clan".

But I think that he thought the piggies were the cops.

He never told anyone to write anything about "pigs" on the walls. Bobby did that on his own. Sadie did that on her own. Pat did that on her own.

Charlie never told them to do that. He said "write something witchy".

They took matters into their own hands.

Does anyone disagree???

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr P said: At the instant Zero pulled the trigger the gun had 6 bullets in it. Yep, fully loaded. When the cops got there one bullet had been fired of the six. That was Zero's mistake. He didnt think the gun was loaded. NOBODY RELOADED THE REVOLVER.>>>

Mr. P, if you read the police report...when the cops got there, there were SIX bullets in the chamber. Did you not know that?

If Zero fired one..then there would be 5 left. There were SIX still in the chamber. Someone re-loaded. Explain that one.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

My opinion, is that Zero's death, is very suspicious.

It may have been suicide... it may have been a stupid accident because a guy (possibly loaded on drugs) made a stupid mistake... and it may have been foul play.

As far as I'm concerned... I'm not convinced, one way or the other.

Who the hell plays "russian roulette" ALONE? AND, with a FULL CHAMBER?

To me... taking one side or the other definitively, makes little sense.

MrPoirot said...

Katie the gun had 5 live rounds and one spent brass casing in it when cops arrived.


Charlie, Sadie, Bobby and Patticia used the word "Pigs" to mean rich folks, not cops. They painted the word pigs on the walls and doors to make police think that Blackie had committed those murders.

katie8753 said...

>>>Charlie, Sadie, Bobby and Patticia used the word "Pigs" to mean rich folks, not cops. They painted the word pigs on the walls and doors to make police think that Blackie had committed those murders.>>

Charlie never wrote that on walls. And he never told them to either. :) If you disagree, show me proof.

Zero didn't commit suicide. He was murdered.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P., read this:

On November 5, 1969, Haught allegedly killed himself playing Russian roulette. When police arrived, family members Catherine Gillies, Bruce Davis, Sue Bartell, and Little Patty were present. According to Little Patty (who's true name was Madaline Joan Cottage), she and Zero were in bed, when he picked up a .22 Caliber Iver & Johnson revolver. After Patty told Zero that there was only one bullet in the gun, he spun the cylinder, placed the muzzle against his head, and shot himself.

The police ruled the death a suicide, however there are certain facts indicting that Haught might have been murdered.

Not only had the revolver and the holster been wiped clean of fingerprints, but also the gun had been FULLY LOADED.

katie8753 said...

The gun was fully loaded when the cops got there. Not a missing bullet.

So how do you explain that one????? I guess you can't since you don't reply.

katie8753 said...
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lurch said...

I'm w/ Katie on this one. Zero "committed suicide" much the same as Shorty "went to Frisco for an acting job". Even if you buy the Russian roulette theroy, how do you explain the total lack of prints on the gun?

WAS Bruce in the living room? Or is that simply what the police report states? The report givin BY those present TO the police!

As far as "Pigs"........pretty sure they were talkin bout rich, successful people more than cops.

MrPoirot said...

Zero "may" have been murdered. It isn't known. There was a clear reason Shorty was murdered and witnesses and a confession. We just don't have that in Zero's case. It's a mystery. Yet till this day there has not been a single person present at Zero's demise who has come forward and said he was murdered by Bruce or by anyone else.

katie8753 said...

Hi Lurch.

I'm sure I'm the lone ranger on this one, but I'm pretty sure that Charlie thought pigs were cops.

He never told anyone to write "pigs" on the walls.

Bobby did it on his own. Sadie and Pat did it on their own. Charlie just said "write something witchy".

I don't even know how much Charlie said about "pigs" to his clan. He probably mentioned the song "Piggies" to them, but did he expound on it? I don't think so.

I think that in his mind, "pigs" were "cops".

I remember back in the 60's the cops were always being called "pigs". For some reason everyone hated them. I think it had to do with MJ!!

Remember the trucker songs: "Breaker, breaker". Always talking about pigs?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Lurch!

katie8753 said...

>>Mr. P said: Zero "may" have been murdered. It isn't known. There was a clear reason Shorty was murdered and witnesses and a confession. We just don't have that in Zero's case. It's a mystery. Yet till this day there has not been a single person present at Zero's demise who has come forward and said he was murdered by Bruce or by anyone else.>>>

Mr. P....Do you think for one minute that anyone would have confessed to the Willet's murders if they hadn't been discovered???

They would have lived comfortably in that little house with Lauren's body in the basement if they hadn't been caught because they were so stupid as to drive James' truck and use his credit cards.

Who in that house is going to confess to Zero's murder??? Little Patty??? Bruce???? They didn't have to confess...the police ruled it a suicide, because they didn't care.

What would be the benefit to them?? Nothing.

Come on now....you're a smart guy. Think about it. You can figure it out.

MrPoirot said...

Clem admitted to killing Shorty. Willet's murderer confessed. There were several Family members in the house when Zero was shot. Not one has come forward saying it was a murder after more than 40 years. Why? Because Zero pulled that trigger. Not Bruce. Zero was a suicide not a murder. Why load the gun and claim Zero was playing russian roulette? Wouldn't you unload the other 5 shots in the gun if it were murder? LOL! NONE of those present made conflicting statements. All the statements jibed with Zero being his own worst enemy. All the witnesses were questioned seperately. Everybodies story jibed with everbody else.

beauders said...

white rabbit is just another bill nelson but on acid.

katie8753 said...

>>Beauders said: white rabbit is just another bill nelson but on acid.>>>

HA HA HA. Got that right!

>>>Mr. P said: Clem admitted to killing Shorty. Willet's murderer confessed.>>>

The Willet's murderers were caught.

Okay I'll concede about the "piggy thing". No one agrees with me, and it's not important anyway.

BUT...I do think that Zero was murdered.

If they're going to re-open the Stubbs case, they ought to re-open the Zero & Pugh cases. I think they both were murdered.

starship said...

Ok, I'm starting to worry about some of you...

First thing: you don't think that cat youtube video thing is real do you? That chick posts all sorts of goofy videos for fun. In one she is a set of conjoined twins.

Second: The house on Waverly Drive was in the LaBianca family forever. Before he and Rosemary moved in, Leno had bought the house from his own mother, and so as a good Italian son, I'm sure Leno visited her from time to time and may very well have met Harold True.

Third: Katie, in the seventies CB craze, the cops were known as bears, as in Smokie the Bear. Yes cops are known as pigs, but CM's version of pigs were anyone part of the rich upper crust establishment.

Love ya' all!

katie8753 said...

Hi Starship!

>>First thing: you don't think that cat youtube video thing is real do you? That chick posts all sorts of goofy videos for fun. In one she is a set of conjoined twins.>>>

Wow didn't know that. I wonder why she gets so many hits if she's just a whack job. Or maybe that's a crowd drawer. HA HA.

>>>Second: The house on Waverly Drive was in the LaBianca family forever. Before he and Rosemary moved in, Leno had bought the house from his own mother, and so as a good Italian son, I'm sure Leno visited her from time to time and may very well have met Harold True.>>>

I'm trying to remember...wasn't the house empty for a while between the time Mrs. LaBianca moved out and Leno & Rosemary moved in?

I guess whether or not Leno ever met True or not really doesn't matter. I don't think that has anything to do with death.

I really don't think that Charlie choosing the LaBianca house has anything to do with True once living next door.

>>>Third: Katie, in the seventies CB craze, the cops were known as bears, as in Smokie the Bear. Yes cops are known as pigs, but CM's version of pigs were anyone part of the rich upper crust establishment.>>

That's right...Smokey the Bear. HA HA. Well, I'm backing off the "piggy" thing. That's just my opinion but like I said, it's not important to the case anyway.

Maybe Charlie thought cops AND rich people were pigs. LOL.

Luv U 2!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Starship said>>>>
"First thing: you don't think that cat youtube video thing is real do you? That chick posts all sorts of goofy videos for fun. In one she is a set of conjoined twins".<<<<

I just visited her Youtube channel.
She has one other video... the twins.
I hardly think two videos, qualifies as "all sorts of goofy videos". LOLOL
At any rate... after watching the twins video, I'm even MORE afraid! AHahahaha

(Oddly enough, she technically has 4 videos, but there's two sets of doubles? ... for again, a total of two. Evdiently, one version of each, just wasn't enough.)

Starship, this conversation screams "too much time on our hands". : )

Someone commented...
"Just substitute "dick" for the word "cats" throughout, and it's much more enjoyable.
LMAO
I agree!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Yeah... around my area, cops were "Smokey" on the CB radio.

As in... "Smokey" the "Bear", I'm presuming.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

...or pigs. LOL

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: Someone commented..."Just substitute "dick" for the word "cats" throughout, and it's much more enjoyable.
LMAO
I agree!>>>

HA HA HA.

"I want them to be on a rainbow".

Picture that one!!

starship said...

Don't worry, that cat chick will be back I have a feeling...

mattprokes said...

back to the casey anthony thing for a second.
have you seen the video of those nutjobs running to get seats in the courtroom when its still dark out?
looked to be at least a few hundred of 'em pushing and shoving
they even had to call an ambulance cause one woman got trampled.
as the great bill hicks once said of the human race:
'we're a virus with shoes'

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Matt.

I haven't seen that footage.
That's a sad commentary.
Our society loves that stuff.

What are we thinking tonight for game 6?
I think we have a good shot, on our 'home ice".
I just hope we can win one in Vancouver.
It seems we can't score a freakin' goal up there.

Well... we'll worry about Vancouver, AFTER we win tonight.
If we don't win tonight, the point is moot.

mattprokes said...

fingers crossed my friend.
even if we lose this has been the best season i've seen since the mid seventies.
the future is bright.
i hope i see seguin and marchand get some power play time.
sit recchi(who i love but not on the pp)and kaberle.
i hope the scumbags from bc get what they deserve...a loss on home ice in game 7.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Matt said>>>>
"i hope the scumbags from bc get what they deserve...a loss on home ice in game 7".<<<<

Wouldn't that be sweet!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Matt...

Bruins ahead 4-0, in the first period!!!

MrPoirot said...

As God as my witness I know a girl who talks about nothing but cats. I know that catchick in the video id funning but there are real people like her. This cat lover I know told me Im going to hell because I hate cats. Good I said! If there are no cats in hell then send there me now! I emailed her the youtube. I hope she gets the message that there's more to life than a damn cat.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Poirot... you're a trip. LOL

I strongly prefer dogs to cats... but, I don't hate cats.... I just don't plan on getting one, any time soon. LOL

beauders said...

not only did leno labianca die in the waverly house he was also born there!