Friday, June 3, 2011

Ever wonder what it was like to be a juror for this case? 
Evidently, quite the experience, to say the least.  The article is a bit lengthy... but, worth the read.  We meet William Zamora, 45, the outcast of the group, who spends most of his time, locked in his room,  writing a book on the experience.  Then there's 25 year old, William McBride who loses his finace' throughout the ordeal.  His biggest complaint is that "sequestering", is keeping him from getting laid.  LOL  Mrs. Jean Roseland, 41, an ash-blonde mother of three teenagers, lost her office job.  Marie Mesmer, 45, a former Los Angeles drama critic and a divorcee, had no one to look after her house.  It was burglarized twice, and her chimney collapsed during the February earthquake.  A social clique formed around the jury's foreman, Herman Tubick, 58, an undertaker.  Dubbed "Herman's kids," the group included Jean Roseland; Larry Sheely, 25, a telephone repairman; Anlee Sisto, 48, a school-district electronics technician; Bob Douglass, 35, an alternate juror; and Mrs. Hines, nicknamed "Giggle-bottom" because of her enthusiastic response to gags. 
Full Story Below.  Thread idea, submitted by Katie!  Thanks Katie!!!
Life Among the Manson Jurors - Monday, Apr. 12, 1971
As the trial for the Tate-LaBianca killings convened in Los Angeles last June, Chief Defense Counsel Paul Fitzgerald admitted: "There is no way we are ever going to get a reasonable jury.  So we decided to frustrate the prosecution attempts to select a good jury and try to keep every dingaling we could find, to get the worst possible jury."
The object was to get one or more mavericks who would contradict the majority and thereby hang the jury.  The stratagem did not work.  Last week, after nine months of endless testimony and agonized deliberations, the seven-man, five-woman panel that had convicted Charles Manson, Leslie Van Houten, Susan Atkins and Patricia Krenwinkel also recommended the death penalty for all four.  Then Judge Charles Older did something unusual: he commended the jurors for service "above and beyond the call of duty."  If it were within his power, he said, he would award each member a medal of honor.  Concluded Older: "To my knowledge, no jury in history has been sequestered for so long a period or subjected to such an ordeal."  He stepped down from the bench and gravely shook each juror's hand.
Manson Jurors Leave For Court
Jurors leave the Ambassador Hotel and walk to a bus bound for the courthouse where they will contiune to hear testimony in the murder trial of Charles Manson, Los Angeles, California, January 1971. By the end of the trial, the jurors had been sequestered at the hotel for 225 days, longer than any previous jury in US history.
A generally staid, middle-class group, the jurors were unprepared for the grueling experience, which was enough to make ding-a-lings out of the most stable personalities.  Yet their deliberations seemed unaffected. The impact on their personal lives was something else.
Click below to continue artcile....


A few took the trial with amazing aplomb.  Alva Dawson, 74, a retired deputy sheriff and the oldest member of the panel, rode an exercising bicycle in his spare time to keep fit and observed that he missed only one thing—the new piano he had been learning to play before the trial.  William Zamora, 45, a state employee and sometime actor, plans to write a book called Sequestered, and his announced intention made the others leary of him.  He became something of an outcast, spending much of his time in his room typing notes.  Zamora claimed last week that his forthcoming book will include seamy tales about jurors being "promiscuous" (other jurors quickly denied the charge).

William McBride, 25, a shaggy-haired Los Angeles bachelor, lost his fiancĂ©e during the lengthy separation.  He thinks that they would have broken up eventually anyway, and that the trial merely hastened matters.  In any event, intimate companionship was a problem for him.  Spouses stayed overnight with married jurors on weekends.  Mrs. John Baer, wife of the 61-year-old electrical technician who was considered the most dutiful juror, called her visits to the Ambassador Hotel a "second honeymoon."  But unmarried jurors were not officially allowed any company, and McBride had the authorities peering over his shoulder.  "One time down at the pool," he recalled, "I met this real cute, real friendly girl.  I knew something was going to happen if I could get to know her a little, but this big female bailiff came up while we were talking and asked, 'Do you know this woman, Mr. McBride?'  I said, 'No, but I will in a few minutes.'  So the bailiff made me go upstairs, even though the girl said she wouldn't mention a thing about the case."  McBride added, with a self-satisfied smile, that he later latched on to a pretty bank employee who paid him occasional visits.

There were a host of more serious problems.  Mrs. Baer had to give up a $600-a-month night job to look after her teen-age daughter during her husband's absence.  Mrs. Jean Roseland, 41, an ash-blonde mother of three teenagers, lost her office job.  Marie Mesmer, 45, a former Los Angeles drama critic and a divorcee, had no one to look after her house.  It was burglarized twice, and her chimney collapsed during the February earthquake.

Mrs. Evelyn Hines, 29, a Dictaphone operator, probably suffered the most embarrassing ordeal.  After the jury was locked up, her husband was asked by a reporter if Mrs.  Hines was developing any bad habits during the sequestration. Hines replied that she had taken to drinking a cocktail before dinner, which she had never done before.  Several days later, Defense Attorney Irving Kanarek, who infuriated everyone during the trial with his obstructionist tactics and windy harangues, implied to reporters that Mrs.  Hines was turning into an alcoholic and might not be fit for jury duty. The husband left town after Kanarek called for him to testify in court about his wife's "drinking."  Not knowing what was going on, Mrs. Hines was mystified when she could not reach her husband by phone.  The tension brought on an asthmatic attack.

A social clique formed around the jury's foreman, Herman Tubick, 58, an undertaker.   Dubbed "Herman's kids," the group included Jean Roseland; Larry Sheely, 25, a telephone repairman; Anlee Sisto, 48, a school-district electronics technician; Bob Douglass, 35, an alternate juror; and Mrs. Hines, nicknamed "Giggle-bottom" because of her enthusiastic response to gags.

Particularly within the clique, the jurors sought release from the trial's strain through childish high jinks.  Sheely and Sisto were first and second bananas.  With unfettered glee, they short-sheeted beds, banged on walls, and placed a tape recording of reveille set to go off at 4 a.m. under a court deputy's bed (he slept through it).  Their boffo running gag: a rubber chicken purchased as a complement to Sheely's chicken jokes.  The chicken made regular appearances in beds and toilets around the jurors' hotel rooms at the Ambassador (cleverly dubbed the "Dambassador").   As a token of their esteem, the group at trial's end presented the chicken to Judge Older.

When practical jokes failed, there were a myriad of other diversions: canasta and cribbage, songfests with Sisto and Douglass on guitars, jigsaw puzzles, crossword puzzles, model building, knitting, reading and a discothèque.  Baer, a devout Presbyterian, read his Bible a great deal when not poring over his notes on the testimony.  A few, like Sisto, were genuinely enthralled by the enforced camaraderie.  As he put it later: "I miss the friendship. I always felt like I could go knock on someone's door and talk any time of the day or night, just like when I was in the Navy."

Besides Zamora, the putative author, another member tried to capitalize on the trial's sensational appeal.  At the close of deliberations, Sheely implored his fellow jurors to avoid reporters and hold out for a $200,000 magazine contract.  Said Tubick: "Most of us were shocked. I didn't think it was right—I just walked out of the room."

Despite internecine pettiness, the jurors were serious and considerate of one another during their deliberations. In broad terms, there was little disagreement about the guilty verdict.  The prosecution's case had been orderly, fact-filled, conclusive.  The defense had been disorganized and virtually devoid of convincing evidence. Psychiatric testimony, the jurors said later, hurt the defense case rather than helped it.  Attempts to depict Krenwinkel and Van Houten as good girls from wholesome backgrounds only indicated to the jury that they had less reason to rebel than Atkins, who had suffered through a troubled adolescence.  The death sentences bothered some, like the pious John Baer, who had to do some delicate rationalizing: "In the trial the defense lawyers said that the Mosaic law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth had gone out of effect nearly 2,000 years ago.  I believe that although Jesus Christ came to show the way of love, we cannot live without the civil authorities until all people learn to live by love instead of hate."
The shouted threats from the defendants seemed to confirm the fears of the jurors.  "Lock your doors!" the Manson women cried.  "Protect your kids!" Said Tubick after the verdict: "I'm scared witless."  In Evelyn Hines' home, the police department's emergency number is clearly displayed these days by both of the Hineses' telephones.  An M-l carbine lies beneath Mr. Hines' side of the bed. Each night as she prepares the family dinner, Mrs. Mines hears the police helicopter whirring overhead; helicopters patrol from time to time near each juror's home.  When the telephone rings and the party hangs up just as Mr. Mines says hello, she coughs her nervous cough again.
Original Story Here:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,904971-1,00.html

29 comments:

MrPoirot said...

What's the difference between being sequestered and house arrest?

Answer: under house arrest you are in your own home and you aren't being closely observed by police living with you around the clock.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

LOLOL

Good point Poirot!
At a certain level, losing your life for 9 months, has gotta suck.
One juror lost his fiance', another her job... another had her house burglarized twice... for cripes sakes. LOL
What a pain in the ass.

Even Judge Older personally thanked the jurors himself.
Not to mention, with a lawyer missing in action, and all the courtroom antics... there must have been a ceratin margin of trepidation and fear.
After all... these jurors had families at home.

I wonder if that guy Zamora ever released the book he was working on... and, if not, why?

starship said...

The Zamora book exists...try the inter-library loan...it's called Blood Family but has another title too.

It was interesting, but is definitely not on the must read list.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Starship!

I'll definitely look into it.
I'd like to at least skim the book, out of sheer curiousity.
This article kinda suggests that Zamora was something of an eccentric... so, I'm curious to see what his "take" is/was on the whole experience.

I gotta be honest.
I think the guy was kinda smart.
If you're going to experience the longest, and arguably most interesting and newsworthy trial to date... AND, you've got nothing but time on your hands... why not write a book?
Eccentric? I think the guy was pretty smart.
And... there's always the outside chance the book will go over big, and make a boatload of money.
I say... why not?! LOL

mattprokes said...

his book was'nt that great.
i got for a dollar at a library sale
a year or two ago.
i guess if you're going to give up a chunk of your life to be a juror you
may as well get something out of it.

mattprokes said...

the copy i got was a paperback called blood family.
maybe the hardcover has a different title.

katie8753 said...

The jurors had to have known that this was going to be one hard ride. But...on the other hand, it would be an experience like no other.

William McBride was the only single man on the jury, and as depicted in one "Manson movie", Leslie & Sadie flirted with him, on Charlie's orders I'm sure. He was the only hold out against the death penalty during the penalty phase of the trial because of Leslie. He finally relented.

The windows on the bus that carried the jurors to the courthouse were covered up, not only to give them privacy from the press, but also to protect them from somebody "getting a bead on them". Everyone involved in this case was being threatened, including the jurors and their families.

katie8753 said...

You have to love the practical jokes. Being sequestered that long...gotta have some fun with it!!!

I'll have to look for Blood Family. Thanks.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Matt!!
Hi Katie!!

Everyone... please excuse my absence so far today.

My brother is going through a divorce, and I've been helping him move some of his stuff.
We're not done yet. LOL

Hopefully, I'll be able to join the conversation in earnest this evening.

Peace... Lynyrd

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd I don't envy you that job!! I hate moving.

It must have been hard to pick a jury for this trial. I'm sure a lot of potential jurors were excused for a variety of reasons.

I've often wondered why the defendants were allowed in the courtroom day after day after all the antics and disruption they caused. Bugliosi probably wanted the antics to continue so the jury could see first hand exactly how much control Charlie had over the girls.

I wonder what the outcome would have been without all the theatrics.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said>>>>:
"It must have been hard to pick a jury for this trial. I'm sure a lot of potential jurors were excused for a variety of reasons".<<<<

According to the first two sentences of this article:

Chief Defense Counsel Paul Fitzgerald admitted: "There is no way we are ever going to get a reasonable jury. So we decided to frustrate the prosecution attempts to select a good jury and try to keep every dingaling we could find, to get the worst possible jury."
The object was to get one or more mavericks who would contradict the majority and thereby hang the jury. The stratagem did not work.


Maybe you're right Katie.
Maybe William McBride was the chief "dingaling maverick" the defense hoped would "contradict the majority and thereby hang the jury".

I can think of a few dingalings who might contradict the majority, and hang the jury! LOLOL
Can you imagine if the defense had access to these blogs, for jury selection??!!
They could easily find twelve dingalings, who would hang the jury! : )
Sorry... I couldn't resist, 'cuz, quite frankly it's true. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I found the book on Amazon, and threw a new thread up.

Thanks Pristash and MattProkes for the review!!
Feel free to elaborate further on the new thread, if the notion grabs ya. LOL

Pristash... I found the other book title.
It was previously printed as "Trial By Your Peers".
As usual Pristash... you know your stuff.
I gotta say... I've called you Pristash for so long... I'm having a real hard time switching to "Starship".
Is it cool if I continue to call you Pristash?
If not... I'll have to just go for it!! LOLOL
I'm a creature of habit, I guess.

Can I go out on a limb here, and guess that Pristash was derived from Starship at some point?
It's almost the same word backwards... certainly uses all the same letters anyway.
It reminds me of when Jim Morrison, came-up with Mr. Mojo Risen. : )

katie8753 said...

>>>They could easily find twelve dingalings, who would hang the jury! : ) Sorry... I couldn't resist, 'cuz, quite frankly it's true. LOL>>>

HA HA. They could also easily find 12 jurors on these blogs who would have let Charlie go because "he's so nice". LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I was thinking about Poirot's concept of "sweetening" today.
Poirot said essentially... that the "Process Church" would preach that eventually Satan and God would reconcile, etc., thus making Satan an easier (candy-coated) pill to swallow.
Add in a bit of God, and how bad can Satan be right??
You strike a universal chord, which most folks identify as a "good" (ie, God in this case)... and you're half-way home.

Sometimes I wonder if ATWA, isn't a "sweetening" tool as well.
They LOVE the air, trees, water and animals... so, how terrible can they be?
Add in a healthy dose of concern for mother earth... and suddenly, you're visualizing the Partridge Family. LOL
A hop, skip and jump later (as Paul Watkins put it)... murders are being committed.
All kidding aside... I really believe, it's the same "sweetening" concept.
If you add an element, which everyone can universally identify with as a postive (such as love for the environment)... you've got an immediate common thread, a hook, AND a concept that brings folks guard down.

Something to think about anyway.

I'd love to hear from Poirot on that one.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I'm not saying that most of the Manson folks weren't legitinately interested in the environment... but, what a great hook though huh?
If they love the environment, they gotta be nice folks right?
It goes hand-in-hand like a glove.
THEN... you find out, they like animals and trees MORE than PEOPLE!
What a curve-ball huh?

It's like that famous Twilight Zone episode... "How to Serve Man".
The guy is thinking the whole time he's gonna be served like a king... THEN, he finds-out it's a COOK BOOK! LOL
How to serve man LITERALLY... AS A MAIN DISH! LOL

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: Sometimes I wonder if ATWA, isn't a "sweetening" tool as well.
They LOVE the air, trees, water and animals... so, how terrible can they be?>>>

That could be very well why Charlie wanted to have the girls be activists for the environment. Makes him look better. :)

katie8753 said...

I thought it was interesting that the jurors feared for their safety, even AFTER the trial was over and they returned home.

I get the feeling that Charlie & his "family" knew all about the jurors, the names, occupations, addresses, etc.

Is that public information?? How else could he find that stuff out? I don't think the jurors were allowed to mingle around with strangers, so I don't think anyone blabbed to the girls on the sidewalk by mistake.

richko62 said...

I didn't know about this book

It may not be must read but I am very interested in the the jury's thoughts and experiences during the trial. To be sequester for that period of time with the Manson Family story taking up most of your day had to be a culture shock at the least an life changing for those who lost jobs and relationships. Apart small of me would have wanted to be on the jury while the rest of me is glad I was not.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey Rich!!
Welcome back!!

I agree. The book doesn't seem to get great reviews from the bloggers here... but it intrigues me as well.
It intrigues me enough, to at least check my local library circulation.
You gotta figure Rich... the man (Zamora), literally wrote the book, during the trial.
I mean... it doesn't get more first-hand, and eye-witness than that... 'cept, being at the murder scene, I suppose. LOL
It's definitely worth a skim-through.
Worst come to worst... you bring it back to the library.
I'm gonna check it out.

I agree... part of me would have died to be part of that jury... and the other part, thinks that jury experience would have killed me! hahaha
Either way, I die... so, I guess it's good I wasn't there. LOL

Peace Brother... Lynyrd

MrPoirot said...

Lynyrd Skynyd Said:

Sometimes I wonder if ATWA, isn't a "sweetening" tool as well.
They LOVE the air, trees, water and animals... so, how terrible can they be?
Add in a healthy dose of concern for mother earth... and suddenly, you're visualizing the Partridge Family. LOL
A hop, skip and jump later (as Paul Watkins put it)... murders are being committed.
All kidding aside... I really believe, it's the same "sweetening" concept.
If you add an element, which everyone can universally identify with as a postive (such as love for the environment)... you've got an immediate common thread, a hook, AND a concept that brings folks guard down.

Something to think about anyway.

I'd love to hear from Poirot on that one.

Mr Poirot Replies:

I thought ATWA and Squeaky's redwood excuse in her assassination escapade were attempts to counter the extreme negative feedback the Family reaped from the public after butchering a pregnant lady in her home. I think Charlie thought the murder of Tate was a strategic disaster unequalled in history. Remember on night two Charlie passed up one house because there were pics of children on the wall. ATWA is basically a front for Charlie's real message of "kill the pigs" just like Planned Parenthood preaches "kill the babies". Do you really think Planned Parenthood is concerned about parenthood? If you want to deceive a bunch of people you need a sweet, fuzzy smokescreen to hide behind. Sorta like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

katie8753 said...

Hi Rich. I agree with you and Lynyrd. I think that I would have loved being on that jury, but on the other hand, all the stares from Charlie and the goings on of the girls would probably have scared me to death. Not to mention the threats!

That's why I thought this thread would be interesting, and I wish this article had gone into more of the day to day stuff they heard, like testimony, crime scene photos, etc. It had to be hard to endure. Not to mention all the times it was disrupted by the antics.

richko62 said...

I'm going to order the book from Amazon. No chance of me finding one up here in the middle of no where in Maine. Be glad to pass it on after I'm done.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Poirot said>>>
"Planned Parenthood preaches "kill the babies". Do you really think Planned Parenthood is concerned about parenthood"?

LOLOL
You gotta point there Poirot.
It should more realistically be called "planned abortion". : )

Even the other day, in the Bertice Berry footage:
When Patti Tate had Sandra on the ropes... Sandy immediately pulled-out the air, trees, water and animals sword/diversion.

It reminds me of that George Carlin skit:
"Shell-Shocked", became "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder".
"Toilet Paper" became "Bathroom Tissue".
He goes on and on...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Rich... you Rock!
Fellow New Englander, no less...
You'll feel right at home.
I spend the whole winter, belly-aching about the weather, and talking about my snowblower!
Ahahaha

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said>>>>
"I think that I would have loved being on that jury, but on the other hand, all the stares from Charlie and the goings on of the girls would probably have scared me to death. Not to mention the threats"!<<<<

Zamora discusses the "fear factor" to an extent, in the last few seconds of part 3... and the very beginning of part 4, of the video series above.
I only posted part2, as posting the entire show, would have taken-up the whole blog. LOL
You can still watch it on YouTube though.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Poirot...

The other day, you went-off regarding the Hendrickson book.
Did you actually read a copy, and find the contents disappointing? Or, were you referring to the purchase price only?

Just curious.

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: Zamora discusses the "fear factor" to an extent, in the last few seconds of part 3... and the very beginning of part 4, of the video series above.
I only posted part2, as posting the entire show, would have taken-up the whole blog. LOL
You can still watch it on YouTube though.>>>

Hokey dokey. I'll check it out. I'd really like to know more about what the jury endured.

I'm "heading to the house". See ya tomorrow.

katie8753 said...

Well I couldn't find either book at the library. Guess I'll have to pay. LOL.

If that book by Zamora is just a bunch of gossip about other jurors that's a shame.

Those jurors probably know more about this case than any of us. I don't care how many books you've read or people you've talked to. These people sat and listened to countless testimony every day for months.

That book could have been an invaluable tool to try to figure this case out.

grimtraveller said...

starship said...

"The Zamora book exists...try the inter-library loan...it's called Blood Family but has another title too.

It was interesting, but is definitely not on the must read list"


I have to disagree wholeheartedly with Starship even though it's 4 years later....I have a hardback copy and it's called "Trial by your peers" and it is most definitely a must read. It probably wasn't at the time of it's original run, but it came out a year before "Helter Skelter" and is amazing in the amount of trial stuff included. It puts some meat on the bones of Bugliosi's book and contains many of the same recollections. But through the eyes of a juror.
While the life of the jury has it's interests, it's really directly trial related stuff that really counts. There were things happening that they did not know about. For example, they weren't aware why they had to spend nearly a month not going to court and there were all kinds of mysteries when Ronald Hughes disappeared.
Anyone that thinks the jurors were just a bunch of dingbats that were fooled by a sassy prosecutor need to read this book and read it seriously, as a serious book. They were conscientious people who took seriously what they were doing and really didn't want anyone sentenced to death but under the circumstances had little choice. Even Zamora who voted death kept welcoming delays because he was hoping someone would come up with reasons to vote life imprisonment.
There are two infuriating things about the book. One is the spelling errors and the getting of people's names wrong, like calling Gypsy Catherine Shore or Daye Shinn Dave Shinn ! The other thing is that it's written as one continuous blurb without chapters or breaks. I've put in my own chapter segments and breaks for easy reference. I've had to give them names which I stuck in the margin.
But as infuriating as those aspects are, it was an enjoyable book to read and I think that by not reading it, folk are really missing out. It's an obviously underrated book and for me at least, in the higher echelon of Manson related books. And the reproduction of the 78 point document that Judge Older gives them to assist in their deliberations, explaining things like conspiracy, is alone worth it's weight in gold. It's in part because of that document that I can understand and grasp why Charles Manson sits in jail today and has done so for the last 46 years. It makes sense why Tex Watson was never charged with Shorty's murder and why Linda and Susan were charged with the LaBianca killing even though they never set foot in the house and partly also why Clem was never charged with it.
Read the book !
It's not sexy but it ain't boring either.